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WORLD'S #1 COUPLES THERAPIST: "If Your Partner Says THIS, the Relationship Is in TROUBLE!"

Do you ever feel like you're having the same fight over and over again? Why is it so hard to be in a relationship with someone who is different from you? Today, Jay sits down with Dr. Orna Guralnik — the world-renowned clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst, and lead therapist on the hit series Couples Therapy. Known for helping couples navigate the complexities of intimacy, conflict, and emotional patterns, Orna shares the real reason relationships break down — and what it actually takes to build something that lasts. Jay and Orna explore why couples often blame communication as the root of all their problems, when what’s really breaking them down runs much deeper. They explore how differences in values, backgrounds, and even childhood wounds create invisible barriers in love—and how we often try to solve them by changing the other person instead of turning inward. Orna shares how blame, defensiveness, and scorekeeping keep us stuck in toxic patterns, and what it looks like to show up with more honesty, humility, and curiosity. Together Jay and Orna unpack the rise of therapy language online—terms like “gaslighting” and “narcissist”—and how misusing them can shut down the kind of open dialogue relationships truly need. They also explore how issues around money, time, and intimacy often point to deeper struggles with power, identity, and emotional safety. In this interview, you’ll learn: How to Stop Trying to “Fix” Your Partner How to Recognize the Real Issue Beneath the Argument How to Make Conflict a Source of Connection How to Move from Blame to Responsibility How to Stay Grounded When Your Values Clash How to Build a Relationship That Grows with You Real love doesn’t ask us to become someone else — it asks us to grow into our most honest, grounded self. This episode is a reminder that healthy relationships aren’t about avoiding differences, but about learning how to navigate them with compassion. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:06 Why Couples Really Fight: The Common Core Conflicts 04:02 Facing “Otherness”: What Happens When Your Partner Is Different 06:07 Embracing Differences Without Losing Yourself 10:21 Building a Partnership of Equals During Conflict 16:48 Holding On to Your Value in a Relationship 19:39 Conflicting Loyalties: When Family and Love Collide 25:18 The Art of Working Through Relationship Struggles 30:01 Digging Deeper: Finding the Root of Your Disagreements 33:26 Escaping the Blame Trap in Your Relationship 37:24 Self-Centeredness vs. Shared Growth 43:07 Creating Emotional Safety for Your Partner 49:57 Letting Love In: Are You Truly Ready for Partnership? 55:33 How Men and Women Tend to Navigate Relationships Differently 57:02 Why It’s So Hard for Men to Open Up Emotionally 01:00:59 Listen Closely—People Reveal More Than You Think 01:03:20 When Parental Baggage Shapes Your Relationship 01:06:57 Signs of a Strong and Healthy Relationship 01:13:35 What Really Makes Someone a Bad Partner? 01:18:35 Are You in Love with a Narcissist? 01:22:12 The Money Struggles Behind Relationship Conflict 01:28:46 Intimacy and Desire: What Keeps Love Alive 01:33:25 Orna on Final Five Episode Resources: https://www.ornaguralnik.com/about https://www.linkedin.com/in/orna-guralnik https://www.instagram.com/ornaguralnik https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.ornaguralnik https://www.instagram.com/jayshetty https://www.facebook.com/jayshetty/ https://x.com/jayshetty https://www.linkedin.com/in/shettyjay/ https://www.youtube.com/@JayShettyPodcast http://jayshetty.me

Dr. Orna GuralnikguestJay Shettyhost
Jul 7, 20251h 41mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:06

    Intro

    1. OG

      Couples come in basically saying, "Doctor, can you change my partner?" I think you guys should just break up and stop torturing each other, or I'm just not the right person for you.

    2. JS

      Dr. Orna Guralnik is a clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst, and a writer. The star of the groundbreaking show, Couples Therapy. She explores the depths of human relationships and trauma.

    3. SP

      Everyone feels like they've dated a narcissist. How accurate are they?

    4. OG

      A hundred percent accurate.

    5. SP

      When you find couples coming with financial issues, is it really about money?

    6. OG

      They wanna feel like, no, money doesn't matter, but it matters to everyone.

    7. SP

      Do more people want more intimacy or more sex? What's the first hard question you should ask yourself in a relationship?

    8. OG

      Can I give?

    9. SP

      What about when someone feels I've given them too many chances, and they're just not shifting?

    10. OG

      That would've been a situation where, where I would say that the pain of divorce is worth it.

    11. SP

      How do you know your relationship is strong enough?

    12. OG

      I would say-

    13. SP

      The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.

    14. SP

      Jay Shetty.

    15. SP

      The one, the only, Jay Shetty. [laughs]

  2. 1:06 – 4:02

    Why Couples Really Fight: The Common Core Conflicts

    1. SP

      What would you say are the top three things you hear when someone first comes into your office?

    2. OG

      I often joke about it that, that most couples come in saying that they have problems in communication. Now, I understand that it looks like a problem in communication because the way couples interact with each other is by, mostly by talking, although there's a lot of non-verbal talking through one's feet. But where whatever's going on between them manifests is gonna be in their communication. So couples typically think, "If only we could communicate better, our problems would be solved." Um, so that's the number one thing that people come in with. Then there are particular kind of, we could say, content areas that couples come complaining about, depending on where they are in their life cycle. Very common one is division of labor. It's not fair. Who's doing what more? Questions around intimacy, whether it's sex or spending time together or connecting. Then there are ways in which their early childhood manifests in their couple's life. But I'd say those are, like, the key areas.

    3. SP

      So it sounded like when you were saying people come in and they think communication's the issue-

    4. OG

      Yeah

    5. SP

      ... the look on your face was, "That's not really the issue."

    6. OG

      Right.

    7. SP

      So what is the issue?

    8. OG

      Right. Well, there are many issues, but the thing is when you, when you guide people into how to communicate better and how to really speak and listen to each other and get to the heart of the issue, usually there are real issues that are underlying the issues of communication. And often people make communication difficult because it's hard for them to touch the real issues, so they defensively create problems in communication. So when you're asking what are the real issues, at least from my perspective, I think if I had to, like, summarize it in the, in the most succinct way, I would say the real issue that couples face is that they're building a relationship or living with another person who's different from them, and that is really hard.

    9. SP

      [laughs]

    10. OG

      It's very exciting. It's a source of growth. It's, it's a source of desire. It's a source of lots of good things, but it's also incredibly difficult and annoying. Whether it's, like, the small habits of another person or the deepest core of who they are and their values and their politics, there are many ways in which the otherness of your partner infringes on you and puts you in all sorts of, like, difficult positions.

    11. SP

      Hmm.

  3. 4:02 – 6:07

    Facing “Otherness”: What Happens When Your Partner Is Different

    1. SP

      Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking back to it. I remember when my wife and I, when we were just dating, and when we lived together for a brief amount of time, that was when I was like, "Oh, I think we could be good together," because it was-- it felt easy to go to work, be in the same space. We kind of had a good distribution of household responsibilities. Like, we, we felt like we had a flow. It's really interesting to me because when I look earlier in my dating life and when I speak to so many people myself, sometimes you can be such good partners when you're boyfriend and girlfriend or whatever your makeup may be, but then when you move in together, you're not as good roommates.

    2. OG

      Yeah.

    3. SP

      And it feels like that transition is where so much of this is discovered.

    4. OG

      Yes, that is probably the first round in which things are discovered, like the living together, and you can think of it as compatibility. Some people just have similar habits or, you know, they, they like the dishwasher loaded a particular way similarly or... And, and it makes it easy. But if you, if you go kind of deeper under, I think part of it is how do you respond to otherness? How do you respond to someone who's different from you in the smallest way and in the biggest way? And for some of us, differentness poses a lot of issues, a lot of problems. It feels intrusive. It makes you question your own beliefs. It's-- you, you, you immediately get into questioning who's right, who's wrong, who's top, who's bottom. Otherness can trigger a lot of stuff, whatever the otherness is, and for some people, it's more easygoing. It's easier to just accept the fact that people have different habits. Part of it is compatibility, and part of it is, like, can you really-- are you ready to tolerate another person and to adjust to another person and, and change in response to letting someone else into your life?

  4. 6:07 – 10:21

    Embracing Differences Without Losing Yourself

    1. SP

      I'm reallyAppreciating the language with that you're explaining this, because I genuinely don't believe I've heard it that simply before, and that well. And I say that because I think we often make it about do we have compatibility? Do we have chemistry? Do we have connection? And really, you're so right that it's feeling othered or otherness that really causes all of our conflict. And, and I have, I have a... Oh, I wanna apologize. We never introduced Nico.

    2. OG

      I know.

    3. SP

      I think Nico's making me aware now. Nico's saying like, "Wait, you left me out." So-

    4. OG

      What about me?

    5. SP

      ... this beautiful being that we have roaming around us at all times is Nico, who we're very grateful is here, and is even more beautiful in person. When Radhi and I first started living together, we found that we had very d- a very small example, we had very different routines in how we liked to host and entertain. So if we had friends over, we both wanna have dinner with them, but then after having dinner, I wanna hang out on the couch, I wanna talk to them-

    6. OG

      Mm-hmm

    7. SP

      ... I wanna relax, I wanna spend time with them. Radhi wants to get into the kitchen and clean-

    8. OG

      [laughs]

    9. SP

      ... while everyone's there-

    10. OG

      Right

    11. SP

      ... and then go to hanging.

    12. OG

      Yeah.

    13. SP

      And I want to hang out with everyone, and then I wanna go and clean when everyone's left.

    14. OG

      Totally get it.

    15. SP

      And mine comes from how I was raised, so that's what we did in my house. And hers comes from how she was raised.

    16. OG

      Right.

    17. SP

      Now, I don't think there's a better or worse, I think it's a preference. But what I found was that when I would hang out straight after eating and I wouldn't clean up, there were times when Radhi would see that as me not valuing her-

    18. OG

      Right

    19. SP

      ... or me not ca-

    20. OG

      Shirking responsibility.

    21. SP

      Exactly, shirking responsibility-

    22. OG

      Yeah

    23. SP

      ... or you expect me to do everything.

    24. OG

      Yeah.

    25. SP

      And that's not how I felt-

    26. OG

      Right

    27. SP

      ... but that's how it came across.

    28. OG

      Right.

    29. SP

      That's why what you're saying resonates with me so strongly, because the otherness of activity also leads to the otherness of emotion, and all of a sudden now you're filling in the gaps of that space-

    30. OG

      Yeah

  5. 10:21 – 16:48

    Building a Partnership of Equals During Conflict

    1. SP

      And what's the difference between... Like, I feel like for a lot of people, they may be in the beginning, they'll just fold and do what their partner wants because it's easier.

    2. OG

      Right.

    3. SP

      And then maybe many years later they'll be like, "I changed for you, I did that for you, I did all these things for you, but you didn't value me, and, you know, you haven't changed," or whatever it may be.

    4. OG

      Totally.

    5. SP

      There's a lot of different versions of that. That's one version. What's the right balance between looking for the right solution and looking for... I, I'm not a fan of the word compromise.

    6. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SP

      What are your thoughts on the word compromise?

    8. OG

      Uh, could you say a little bit more just about, like-

    9. SP

      Yeah, sure

    10. OG

      ... oh, that's interesting.

    11. SP

      I, I don't love... So for example, for me, I don't believe... I think compromise is us both saying, "Well, okay, well, I'll do a little bit of this for you if you do a little bit of this for me." Whereas to me it's like, "Well, can we work together to figure out what makes the most sense?"

    12. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SP

      "And what is actually the most practical, best, effective solution where everyone's happier?" And I don't think that means some- Like, for example, with this situation, we have now believed that it is nicer to host as long as Radhi has the peace of mind that everything will be clean that evening.

    14. OG

      Yeah.

    15. SP

      We've come to a conclusion, which I don't think is a compromise for either of us.

    16. OG

      Right.

    17. SP

      It's a feeling that we both found a solution together.

    18. OG

      Yeah.

    19. SP

      And compromise to me makes me feel like I gave up something or I lost out on something, or she did.

    20. OG

      Yeah.

    21. SP

      And I don't want her to give up something for me that's important. If she said to me, "Jay, it is so important to me that we clean up right away," I would value that and I would do it.

    22. OG

      Yeah.

    23. SP

      I don't wanna do it because I feel forced to or I have to.

    24. OG

      Yeah.

    25. SP

      That's my issue with it.

    26. OG

      I'm thinking about how I work it out with couples. When... First of all, couples need to abandon the idea that one of them is completely right and one of them is wrong.Right? You, you, you want to approach the difference with the idea that you're equal partners, that you each have a valid point of view, even if it's different. And that's actually not an easy thing to get to.

    27. SP

      It's so hard.

    28. OG

      So hard, right?

    29. SP

      I see that being the biggest challenge for couples.

    30. OG

      Yes. And it would be interesting to think about, like, why is it so hard for us? But it's very hard. But once you approach a difference in terms of it just simply being two equal partners struggling with difference, then you wanna create a space... And I agree with you that to simply compromise is sometimes just a quick fix, and it kind of, it's like a Band-Aid that underneath it can breed resentments, and, and you can eventually somehow go back to the idea that it's not fair, I compromise more than you, or... But to do what you're suggesting doing, which is to really put both minds to it and arrive at a conclusion together, is actually really hard. You have to overcome both a lot of your own convictions, selfish needs, and really work for the good of the relationship, of the total, the total good. That's why I often say that couples form between them like a political system. It's like the first political system of how do you resolve difference. Are you gonna be, like, autocratic or democratic in terms of how you resolve a difference?

  6. 16:48 – 19:39

    Holding On to Your Value in a Relationship

    1. SP

      open up to the idea that someone else's value may be helpful without devaluing yourself? Almost how do you open up to the idea that someone else and you can build something together without feeling like you're losing and merging yourself? Because I think what's interesting here is the person often with the better idea-

    2. OG

      Mm-hmm

    3. SP

      ... is also not doing it to find a common solution. They also just want you to go their way. And so we're also not being-

    4. OG

      Right

    5. SP

      ... led perfectly, if that makes sense.

    6. OG

      Right. You know, ideally you wanna create conditions where it stops being about who's right, who's wrong, but again, it's for the, the, the good of everyone. Like, the... You, you, ideally you want kind of the questions of the ego to kind of drop to the background and to really get into the state of mind where both participants feel acknowledged, safe, and they don't have to worry about their, their identity or their ego or their, or their personal investment, and they have a feeling that they're gonna gain something for the good of the couple or the family or the unit, that there's something that exceeds them that will benefit from this. And, and to get there, there are many ways to get there, but, um-I know what I try to do in my practice is to create, first of all, a sense of, you know, what people call now in, in, in popular language, like a, a safe space. And what does that mean? It means a space in which what matters to you in a deep way is heard, is respected. You may not necessarily get exactly your way, but you feel on a basic human level that your dignity, your, your-- the things you care about that really matter to you are seen and respected, and that whoever's negotiating with you will take that into account, not just kind of, you know, bulldoze over you. And when people feel cared for in this way by the therapist or eventually by their partner, they're willing to do a lot. I think people, we're all mostly-- we have, like, an incredibly generous, creative spirit within us that if we stop feeling threatened, we, we want to operate from there for the better of everyone. And I think when you get to a solution where one person feels, "Oh, I got my way," and the other one didn't, it never ultimately feels good.

    7. SP

      Mm.

    8. OG

      It might feel good in the moment, like you got a momentary win, but you're left with this kind of, ugh, churning, uncomfortable feeling that you took something that you shouldn't have taken from someone.

    9. SP

      Yeah. I think, I think the challenge

  7. 19:39 – 25:18

    Conflicting Loyalties: When Family and Love Collide

    1. SP

      that people experience is, like, let's say it's the holidays, and I'm saying to you, I'm like, "I know we're going to your family's for Christmas. I just want you to know that I really feel uncomfortable around your parents because I feel like they're always, you know, picking at my career, or they're always making me feel a bit insecure about something like this, or maybe they're somewhat downplaying some of my achievements or whatever. I just want you to know that sometimes I feel triggered." Like, let's say I say that to my partner.

    2. OG

      Yeah.

    3. SP

      Very untrue for my life, but things that I hear-

    4. OG

      But actually it's a very common thing

    5. SP

      ... it's a very common thing for others.

    6. OG

      Yeah.

    7. SP

      And your partner doesn't have-- What I find today is people don't have the capability to validate you-

    8. OG

      Right

    9. SP

      ... without feeling like they're invalidating themselves.

    10. OG

      Yeah.

    11. SP

      So the person responding to that goes, "How can you say that about my parents? They love you."

    12. OG

      Yeah.

    13. SP

      "I mean, they love you. Like, what are you talking about?"

    14. OG

      Yeah.

    15. SP

      Like, "Oh my God, they, they've got you an amazing gift. Like, it's a surprise. Like, you don't even know. Like, you know, oh my God, they were just asking about you yesterday." And you're like, "No, I get that. I'm not saying they're not loving, but I just feel like I get really triggered-

    16. OG

      Mm-hmm

    17. SP

      ... because of this, this, and this." And they're like, "Look, you're just crazy. Like, just, you know, don't worry about it."

    18. OG

      Yeah.

    19. SP

      Like, "Just, just, it's not a big deal."

    20. OG

      Right.

    21. SP

      And it's not that that person is me-- your, your partner's not being mean, but they don't realize because they're so scared, or they'll say something to you like, "I can't believe you can say that about my parents. My parents are loving, wonderful people."

    22. OG

      Yeah.

    23. SP

      And now you feel really hurt and pushed away-

    24. OG

      Yeah

    25. SP

      ... because you're like, "Well, wait a minute." So I find that often when people share how they actually feel-

    26. OG

      Mm-hmm

    27. SP

      ... the person on the receiving side doesn't know how to receive that-

    28. OG

      Totally agree

    29. SP

      ... because they're scared that if they accept that, then, then they have to accept that their parents are the worst people on the planet or whatever else comes with that criticism. How do we, how do we kind of wrap our head around that?

    30. OG

      Yeah. You're, you're capturing something very significant. I think, first of all, just to understand why is that kind of moment so difficult before even trying to think of-

  8. 25:18 – 30:01

    The Art of Working Through Relationship Struggles

    1. OG

      hard for everyone.

    2. SP

      Let's talk about that because I think culturally, and different cultures have different expectations too, so-

    3. OG

      Yeah

    4. SP

      ... for example, in the Indian culture-

    5. OG

      Oof

    6. SP

      ... yeah, it's generally seen that the woman becomes a part of the man's family. Now, that's a very-

    7. OG

      I know

    8. SP

      ... traditional idea. I was very fortunate to grow up in a home that was far more broad-minded than that, and we don't, I don't subscribe to it at all.

    9. OG

      What, what generation are you?

    10. SP

      I'm, like, first generation in, in England.

    11. OG

      First generation.

    12. SP

      Yeah, in, in England.

    13. OG

      Yeah.

    14. SP

      Yeah, first generation in England. I definitely don't subscribe to that idea. To me, it's dehumanizing of the individual who kind of becomes like, oh, you were-

    15. OG

      You're like an object

    16. SP

      ... yeah, you're like an object-

    17. OG

      Yeah

    18. SP

      ... that's now been placed over.

    19. OG

      Yeah.

    20. SP

      Now, do I believe that we're a part of each other's families? Of course.

    21. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SP

      But I think for me it was very clear that we were now building something together.

    23. OG

      Yeah.

    24. SP

      And that became the priority. And the buildings that we both came from were homes that we could always visit and be a part of, but we had to be very careful in curating the home. And I, I explain this, the way I like couples to think about it, because I know a lot of people who when I say this to them, they get rubbed the wrong way 'cause they're like, "What about culture? What about tradition? What about my family values?" Going back to loyalty.

    25. OG

      Yeah.

    26. SP

      And I like people to think about it like designing a home, and we were talking about that earlier.

    27. OG

      Yeah.

    28. SP

      So you grew up in a certain home, and your partner grew up in a certain home, and I'm guessing when you move into a home or you rent an apartment or whatever it is that you both decide to do together, you design it to your tastes together. It would be very rare for you to say, "I want this to look exactly like my mom's home." And it would be very rare for that person to say, "I want this to look exactly like my dad's home." Chances are you're both gonna come together, and you, maybe one of the partners takes the lead because the other person doesn't have much interest or talent or skill, and you end up creating this space. But the point was you knew you were creating something together.

    29. OG

      Right.

    30. SP

      And so I like to think about it like that, where it's like, okay, well, we're designing something together, and that doesn't mean we don't take influence and inspiration from the homes-

  9. 30:01 – 33:26

    Digging Deeper: Finding the Root of Your Disagreements

    1. SP

      I think we need to give people a vocabulary for that.

    2. OG

      Yeah. Yeah.

    3. SP

      And, and it's really hard when we've lived in a very logical, rational world-

    4. OG

      Yeah

    5. SP

      ... where, like, you learned math, and there was something, there was a right answer-

    6. OG

      Right

    7. SP

      ... and there was a wrong answer.

    8. OG

      Right.

    9. SP

      And in school-

    10. OG

      Although even in math it's not true.

    11. SP

      It's not true.

    12. OG

      There are many ways to get to a solution.

    13. SP

      Yeah.But the way we were taught in school-

    14. OG

      Yeah. Yes

    15. SP

      ... there was always a right and wrong answer.

    16. OG

      Yes.

    17. SP

      So we don't really have the ability, like-- And I keep coming to art as a way of talking about it. It's like-

    18. OG

      Yeah

    19. SP

      ... art just doesn't have a lot of right and wrong.

    20. OG

      Yeah.

    21. SP

      It's just taste.

    22. OG

      Yeah.

    23. SP

      And taste can-- taste is not good or bad. It's just taste. It's just like-

    24. OG

      Yeah

    25. SP

      ... you could put a color that doesn't make sense next to another color, and it could work, and it could not work, but y-you're not looking at it in a binary way. You have a reason for why it's placed there.

    26. OG

      Yeah.

    27. SP

      And, and I think we've, in, uh, in trying to get to right and wrong, we've lost our reasoning power.

    28. OG

      Yeah.

    29. SP

      Of like, "Why am I doing this? Why are we doing this? How are we behaving?"

    30. OG

      Yeah.

  10. 33:26 – 37:24

    Escaping the Blame Trap in Your Relationship

    1. SP

      Hmm. If, if a couple's stuck in the blame game-

    2. OG

      Mm-hmm

    3. SP

      ... like, "Look, this is all your fault."

    4. OG

      Yeah.

    5. SP

      And then the other person's like, "Well, I've been trying my best, you know, but y- it's really what you've been doing," how do you start rewiring that conversation? What does it take? What are the steps to getting out of the blame game, which seems to be such a commonplace?

    6. OG

      Right. It's big. Um, there's no, uh, there's no one way because people get stuck in that blame game, which is pernicious, um, for different reasons. My job and when people are in that kind of pattern is to convince each of them to kinda release the grip they have, like, be a little less convinced and sure about their own narrative. Just get a little less stubborn about your narrative and start getting curious about other ways to see things. And then start getting curious about yourself. Rather than hyperfocus on your partner and put everything outside, like, try to pull back from that hyperfocus and start asking yourself questions. "Why does this thing bother me so much? What is the thing that is, like, m-making me crazy?" Like, if, if we went back to, like, the example of, like, the, the dinner parties. Like, why is it so important to clean right after? W-what's the fear if the, if the dishes sit there for another two hours? What, what's the issue? Like, look back at yourself. Don't focus on your partner. What's he doing, not doing? What's getting stirred up in you? And usually, you find really interesting things there. Like, when people are really willing to, like, pull away from their partner and look into themselves, they're like, "Oh, this is really interesting. This is kinda reminding me of blah, blah, blah." And, and suddenly it's less about the partner, and there's a whole world to discover about yourself. And, and, and the whole intensity of blame goes down, and then people get curious about each other. You know, and you're gonna be like, "Oh yeah, I noticed that your mom is, like, so fastidious, and she's so afraid of germs, and what happened to her when she was a kid?" And, like, a whole world opens.

    7. SP

      Hmm.

    8. OG

      And, and the whole blame thing becomes less interesting.

    9. SP

      Yeah, I remember doing that for myself and realizing I thought I'd been tolerant of my partner and then realized my wife's actually been so tolerant of me.

    10. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SP

      Like, you have that kind of 180-degree view where you just-

    12. OG

      Yeah

    13. SP

      ... go, "Wait a minute. I thought I was the one, like-

    14. OG

      Yeah

    15. SP

      ... doing everything."

    16. OG

      Yeah.

    17. SP

      But that's because I never kept score on her scorecard.

    18. OG

      Yeah.

    19. SP

      Right? It was very easy for you to always look at things through your lens.

    20. OG

      Totally.

    21. SP

      You can always count the amount of overtime hours you did.

    22. OG

      Yes.

    23. SP

      It's the same at work. You can always count the amount of effort you've put in.

    24. OG

      Right.

    25. SP

      But you never see anyone else's effort. You never see-- And, and we also miss theLike when our partner lets us off with bad behavior or a bad mood, you don't take note of that.

    26. OG

      No.

    27. SP

      But then when your partner-- when you, you know, react to your partner's bad mood or whatever, you're like, "Oh my God, look, I held back, and-

    28. OG

      Yeah

    29. SP

      ... I was so gracious."

    30. OG

      Why aren't you doing that for me?

  11. 37:24 – 43:07

    Self-Centeredness vs. Shared Growth

    1. SP

      when objectively someone is being genuinely taking, taken advantage of? So it's like they're doing all the chores, they're contributing fifty percent financially-

    2. OG

      Yeah

    3. SP

      ... their, their feelings are not heard or seen.

    4. OG

      Yeah.

    5. SP

      They're never validated. The person does actually have an expectation that you're meant to do all this. This is who you are.

    6. OG

      Yeah.

    7. SP

      This is your role in life.

    8. OG

      Yeah.

    9. SP

      How does someone think through that when they still feel the person's a good person and...

    10. OG

      First of all, I have to say it's more rare than you'd think. It so-

    11. SP

      Oh, interesting.

    12. OG

      Yeah. It sometimes looks like that, like one person could be like, you know, like you're saying, doing all the work, and the other person is like mooching off them and... But when you look at the relationship, often what you find is that they're contributing in some other very subtle way. It could be not something you can really put your finger on, but they're like the, let's say, they're loyal to the couplehood. They're holding like the, the, the, the whatever that thing of the boat is called, the keel of the boat.

    13. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    14. OG

      They're, they're like the most romantic and holding on to the deepest idea of what the couple is despite all the fighting or they might be contributing in ways that are hard to account for, and, and it's important to, to unearth that and give each person a sense of what their contribution really is. Some of the work that I have to do with couples is m- make people aware and accountable for where they are being selfish because we all have an inclination to, as you said earlier, to only see our own work and only see our own point of view, and we're selfish, and we're not even selfish. We're self-centered. We've, we've got like, you know, the, the our perceptive field, and we don't really see the other. And working through that and, and getting to a more humble place where you understand that you've been more selfish and then in certain ways you are exploiting your partner, it's an important piece of the work. I have to go about it. It's, it's hard for all of us to acknowledge that, so I have to b- go about it gingerly and, and sensitively with people and, and give a lot of reinforcement for being willing to take on that less pretty part of ourselves.

    15. SP

      Mm.

    16. OG

      But ultimately, like you were saying earlier, it's, it's, it's a gratifying process. That, that's why i- it sounds a- almost like Pollyannish or corny, especially nowadays, but I do believe in the goodness of people. We ultimately want what's good for our partner.

    17. SP

      Yeah. It's just that we want what's good for our partner, but maybe we don't know what's good for them.

    18. OG

      Yeah. Yeah.

    19. SP

      Right? And we often think we know what's good-

    20. OG

      Yeah

    21. SP

      ... for our partner or right for our partner.

    22. OG

      Yeah.

    23. SP

      And that's sometimes our greatest mistake-

    24. OG

      Yeah. We-

    25. SP

      ... because we're not really listening to them or-

    26. OG

      Right

    27. SP

      ... taking in from them what they're saying and, and-

    28. OG

      Right

    29. SP

      ... and feeling.

    30. OG

      We're self-centered. We're narcissistic in many ways. There, there's a way in which our worldview is limited by being, you know, the way we're, especially the way we're raised. I actually wonder what you'd think about this because I think it's, it's very different in Western versus other cultures, but, but, but we're raised with such a focus on the self. I mean, there's a certain kind of narcissism built into our culture that makes it harder for us to be in, in deep relationships.

  12. 43:07 – 49:57

    Creating Emotional Safety for Your Partner

    1. SP

      wanna work on."

    2. OG

      What would you say if you had to characterize each of your s- basic stances towards each other? What-- how would you describe it?

    3. SP

      Ooh, that's interesting. I d- I don't know if I've ev- even have the vocabulary for that. It's a great question. Um, I would say I am completely in awe of my wife. I love her. I find her to be the most adorable, wonderful human being. I could, like, look at a, you know, a video or a picture of her, and I just-- It's-- we've been together for eleven years, and I'll just-

    4. OG

      Wow

    5. SP

      ... feel this, like, overarching feeling of love towards her.

    6. OG

      And her?

    7. SP

      That's my stance. I would have to ask her for this question, I guess.

    8. OG

      But what do you know? You know.

    9. SP

      But if I had to perceive it, I think, I think if she was answering this in a question to you or when I wasn't in the room-

    10. OG

      Yeah

    11. SP

      ... I think she'd say that she has a deep sense of respect, and I don't wanna use the word adoration out of context, but, like, there's a-- If, if she's sharing how she feels with me in private or in a, in a special moment or through a friend who said something to me, it w- it would be that I think she just-- she trusts me deeply. She has a very positive feeling towards me as a human, let alone just as a partner.

    12. OG

      Yeah.

    13. SP

      Um-

    14. OG

      That's amazing

    15. SP

      ... and I don't-- Yeah, and, you know, sometimes I have to get that out of her, but, you know-

    16. OG

      Yeah

    17. SP

      ... it's, uh, uh-

    18. OG

      But that, but that's what you're describing, sort of what you're-- It's like the space that you're creating for each other, right, to live in, th- that kind of basic stance. Like when you were asking earlier, like, what, what are couples that will not make it? I mean, that's, that's what you want. You want the couple to create that kind of space between them to live in, that you're creating the world in which you're living.

    19. SP

      How do you encourage them to do that when they're saying to you, "You know what?"

    20. OG

      But he, but he, but he.

    21. SP

      "When I look-- Yeah, when I look at my partner, he's like, I know he's a good guy at heart. I kn- I know, I know he's, I know he means well, but he just, you know, all he does is watch football all weekend."

    22. OG

      Right. Right.

    23. SP

      "And, like, he always forgets my birthday."

    24. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    25. SP

      "And, you know, it's just like, it's always about, like, spending time with his family."

    26. OG

      Right.

    27. SP

      "And, like, you know, I don't even think he even-- He never wants to talk about his feelings." Like, you know, if that's what you're hearing-

    28. OG

      Right

    29. SP

      ... it's very different to what I-

    30. OG

      And I do hear. I do hear that.

  13. 49:57 – 55:33

    Letting Love In: Are You Truly Ready for Partnership?

    1. SP

      the first hard question you should ask yourself in a relationship?

    2. OG

      I would say, um, maybe am I ready to let someone else in with their otherness, with the challenge to my narcissism? Am I ready for that? This is sort of following everything we've been saying.

    3. SP

      That's a great question.

    4. OG

      Can I give?

    5. SP

      Yeah, can I give?

    6. OG

      Yeah.

    7. SP

      Yeah. And can I hold space-

    8. OG

      Mm-hmm

    9. SP

      ... for someone else to have to go through their transformation?

    10. OG

      Yeah.

    11. SP

      Because chances are they're not going to come fully formed.

    12. OG

      Right.

    13. SP

      And even if they're perfect on my wedding day or right now, chances are they're gonna go through stuff.

    14. OG

      Yeah.

    15. SP

      And being honest with myself, 'cause I think sometimes we feel guilty. I know a lot of people who say to me, "Jay, I would've stayed with him." Like, they're someone that they're dating, they're not married, they're not in a committed relationship. They're like, "I would've stayed with him, but I don't think I can for what he has to go through and grow through."

    16. OG

      Wow.

    17. SP

      You know, he's not ambitious. He needs to figure out his career. He's struggling with his mental health. Like, I don't know if I wanna be the person to go through it with him.

    18. OG

      Right. Although I- I would also say in that case-

    19. SP

      You're not ready

    20. OG

      ... you're not ready, and no one wants to be in a relationship where their partner is just waiting for them to change for the relationship to really start. You wanna feel like your relationship is your home, not the future home you're gonna have if you change.

    21. SP

      Yeah.

    22. OG

      There's a certain level of acceptance that has to happen. Of course, we wanna change and get better and grow with each other, but you can't really be in a re- conditional relationship.

    23. SP

      I, I-

    24. OG

      I'm gonna love you when you change. I'm gonna be generous with you when you change. That's not the real thing.

    25. SP

      But that is what people want.

    26. OG

      Uh, that's, that's n- not gonna work.

    27. SP

      I literally feel like we find someone that we find attractive-

    28. OG

      Mm-hmm

    29. SP

      ... and that we enjoy our time with-

    30. OG

      Mm-hmm

  14. 55:33 – 57:02

    How Men and Women Tend to Navigate Relationships Differently

    1. OG

      the partners that come from really other places.

    2. SP

      Yeah. Yeah.

    3. OG

      So I'm, I'm-- when people start, like, blaming their partner for stuff, for me, it's like a riddle.

    4. SP

      Yeah.

    5. OG

      What is this really about?

    6. SP

      And those are the kind of questions that if we reflect on it ourselves too-

    7. OG

      Mm-hmm

    8. SP

      ... it can help us so much.

    9. OG

      Yeah.

    10. SP

      I mean, are you-- do you find that are women more prone to be the fixers?

    11. OG

      First of all, I think things are changing as far as gender, so it's a little hard to make real statements about like women and men. But if I had to kind of say something general, I'd say women are-- they're raised to be more kind of tuned into the ins and out of a relationship and kind of take care of the relationship in a certain way in terms of like talking more, bringing feelings to the table. And men are more tuned in to like the frame around the relationship and, and a certain kind of loyalty over time. They, they, they add a certain rudder to the relationship. So it, it's different ways of tending to the relationship.

    12. SP

      Mm.

    13. OG

      But even that, it changes a lot, and of course, it then looks very different in queer relationships, so-

    14. SP

      Of course

    15. OG

      ... but that's kind of my crude generalization about women and men.

    16. SP

      Yeah.

  15. 57:02 – 1:00:59

    Why It’s So Hard for Men to Open Up Emotionally

    1. SP

      How, how have you helped men who struggle to open up-

    2. OG

      Mm-hmm

    3. SP

      ... about their emotions open up? Because I think sometimes there's a lot of pressure for a man to show up emotionally.

    4. OG

      Right.

    5. SP

      But he may never have had that training-

    6. OG

      Right

    7. SP

      ... or that vocabulary or that safe space-

    8. OG

      Right

    9. SP

      ... his whole life.

    10. OG

      Well, he probably has anti-training, right? Men, men are-- I mean, again, it's different nowadays, but typically men are raised to disavow their feelings, focus on, um, power, protection. I mean, important functions, not, not to minimize that. There's, there's a lot of value in those, but, but they're, they're raised to turn away from their feelings. And I-- what I do i-in my work with men is I, in a way, teach them to pay attention to small hints about their emotional world, and they're always there. You know, stomach ache, a tightness in the chest, uh, a habit that is not good for them, and to follow those beginning hints and clues and try to get curious about what else can they tell me about their emotions. And when they start getting in touch with feelings, it's usually it's very gratifying. It's, it's good to get in touch with your feelings. It, it feels good. You feel more grounded. Your, your, your world gets richer, and your relationships get better. So it's, it's really starting from the little clues from-- and, and developing curiosity and then kind of developing a menu, like a vocabulary for all these little things that happen in you, like from having like three words for feelings, like I'm angry, I'm bored, I'm happy. You know, you can start expanding to twelve words and then eventually to like seventy words, and then, you know, it gets, it gets interesting.

    11. SP

      Yeah. And I feel like people have to be patient.

    12. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SP

      That's what I found in relationships the most, that a lot of us are waiting for everything to change at the next therapy session-

    14. OG

      Yeah

    15. SP

      ... the next twenty-four hours-

    16. OG

      Yeah

    17. SP

      ... the next argument, or we just learned that in therapy, it should be solved now.

    18. OG

      Right.

    19. SP

      And I'm like, you realize they've been practicing that habit for like twenty-nine years.

    20. OG

      Generations. Generations.

    21. SP

      Yeah.

    22. OG

      Yeah.

    23. SP

      And, and generations even more-

    24. OG

      Yes

    25. SP

      ... than twenty-nine years.

    26. OG

      Yes.

    27. SP

      And so I just feel like we've lost our ability to be patient because there's so much choice.

    28. OG

      Yeah.

    29. SP

      And there's a feeling that, well, someone must be able to do all these things.

    30. OG

      Yeah.

  16. 1:00:59 – 1:03:20

    Listen Closely—People Reveal More Than You Think

    1. SP

      Let's-- I wanna focus on a different life cycle part of relationships.

    2. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SP

      When people are starting to date, are there things that they can look for that show the sign of someone being a strong partner for them or a weak partner?

    4. OG

      You know, that so much happens early on when we just meet people that is unconscious. So much is unconscious. Like years later, you'll, you'll be able to analyze why you really like this person or what went wrong. So it's hard to make people really fully aware of what's moving them. I would say listen to your gut. Your gut is telling you important things, and it might be telling you important things about yourself, about your own history. It might be telling you to keep repeating the same mistakes, or it might be telling you something really worth listening to about the other person that is good. Don't be afraid. So listen to your gut. I would also say listen to what the other person is telling you. People often disclose a lot about themselves right at the beginning, and we often don't listen. I know that from when patients come into my practice, and I'm having first sessions with people, often people tell me everything right at the beginning. Even, even in the way they, they're like late to a session and the way they explain it, they might be telling me a lot about their whole life history just, just in the very beginning. So listen. Don't ignore information that's right in front of you. Like, um, Hillary was actually telling me that a friend of hers, um, dated someone who I think on their first date told her, "I have a suitcase of unpaid bills under my bed."

    5. SP

      Hmm.

    6. OG

      And she thought it's funny and ignored that. Of course, only later, later, later to find out, I mean, this person was like a mess.

    7. SP

      It sounded funny on the first date.

    8. OG

      It sounded funny, but-

    9. SP

      It's good chatting

    10. OG

      ... they're telling you real information. So listen. Listen to what people are telling you.

    11. SP

      Hmm.

    12. OG

      Listen is generally a good-

    13. SP

      [laughs]

    14. OG

      ... a good piece of advice. [laughs]

    15. SP

      Yeah.

  17. 1:03:20 – 1:06:57

    When Parental Baggage Shapes Your Relationship

    1. SP

      If someone tells you that they have a bad relationship with their parents-

    2. OG

      Mm-hmm

    3. SP

      ... are there certain things to expect, or is that too general?

    4. OG

      First of all, that's an interesting piece of information, talking about listening. I would immediately get curious, like, what, what is the person telling me? Is the person telling me something about early trauma? And, um, I'd wanna know what happened and how did this person-- What, what does it mean to not have a good relationship with a parent a-after trauma? So I'd wanna know what happened, um, and is the person you're getting to know, are they-- Like did something bad happen to them with their family of origin and they have developed a certain kind of wisdom where they know how to separate themselves from, from earlier traumatic experiences or not good experiences, and they've kind of formed their own personhood in a way that you can trust? Or is this, I mean, to the other end of things, is someone in a way stuck in something that they kind of have not found a way to work their way out of, and they're gonna be forever stuck in a certain old pattern that they really need to be doing the work to move out of? So, you know, I mean-

    5. SP

      Yeah. It's wide

    6. OG

      ... I'm giving two extremes.

    7. SP

      Yeah.

    8. OG

      Like one is I've had like something bad happen to me, or this was not good, and I'm, I'm-- I've just worked my way out of it, and I'm separate from this family of origin. Or on the other extreme is, yeah, I hold a grudge, and I'm forever begrudging these parents, and really I'm gonna be repeating that in this relationship too because this is my life story, grudge.

    9. SP

      It's so hard because it seems like long-term relationships, which is what we all want-

    10. OG

      Mm-hmm

    11. SP

      ... require three types of healing. Like that person needs to heal, you need to heal, and then you need to heal together.

    12. OG

      Right.

    13. SP

      And you need to make space for them to heal. They need to spa-- make space for you to heal. You need to make space for yourself to heal.

    14. OG

      Right.

    15. SP

      And then there's so much healing required.

    16. OG

      Yeah.

    17. SP

      And it requires so much patience, compassion, empathy, like almost endless to some degree.

    18. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    19. SP

      Again, I'm not talking about abusive or, you know, uh, violent relationships.

    20. OG

      Yeah.

    21. SP

      We're, we're talking about a relationship that's not abusive or violent. There's, there's like endless amounts because, you know, it's like things were great, and then you had a child, and then the child had challenges, and then you went through that together. And I've had so many friends this year go through a miscarriage and like-

    22. OG

      Mm-hmm

    23. SP

      ... that created new things in their relationship that they didn't have before because they both dealt with grief differently.

    24. OG

      Yeah. Samsara. Life is, life is difficult. I mean, life's amazing, but life is full of... I mean, you know, the Americans think that life is about pleasure [laughs] and happiness. I mean, life is a challenge.I mean, there, I mean, death is embedded in life. I mean, we're-- life is full of difficulties. There's always loss. There's always a challenge. There-- it's, it's the stuff of life, and I welcome that. That's what life is about.

    25. SP

      How do

  18. 1:06:57 – 1:13:35

    Signs of a Strong and Healthy Relationship

    1. SP

      you know your relationship is strong enough? How do you prepare? Not that you can ever prepare for anything like that, but how do you know you're in a strong, healthy relationship? Because I think up until now, the only marker we've had, which I don't agree with, is we never argue. So a lot of people will be like, "Oh, I have a great relationship. We never argue," right? Which is-

    2. OG

      That sounds scary.

    3. SP

      Hundred-- I agree, but I feel like that's been our only metric-

    4. OG

      Yeah

    5. SP

      ... of how we perceive. If we say someone has a great marriage, we're like, "They never argue. Have you seen them? Like, it's great," right? Like, it's not-- we don't have more than that. We don't have a bigger grading exercise.

    6. OG

      Yeah.

    7. SP

      To-- we, we do length. So we say, "Oh, they've been together for thirty years."

    8. OG

      Right.

    9. SP

      "They must have a great marriage."

    10. OG

      Right.

    11. SP

      So we use length as a marker of success.

    12. OG

      Right.

    13. SP

      We use not arguing or, like, they rarely have, you know, disagreements or whatever it may be as a marker of success, and we have, "Oh, they have a beautiful family," like if they have kids and it's-

    14. OG

      Yeah

    15. SP

      ... it feels... Like, we have very basic markers to assume that someone has a healthy relationship. How do we make sure we're in a strong, healthy relationship? What does that look like?

    16. OG

      First of all, I would say that ki- what we said earlier, that kind of stance. When you spend time with a couple-

    17. SP

      Yeah, I love that answer. Mm-hmm

    18. OG

      ... when you spend time with a couple, you ha-- they have-- they build a certain... There's a way that there's an atmosphere around them that you can-- it's palpable, and if the atmosphere around them is of a certain kind of mutual respect, adoration, a certain kind of acceptance, that is, that is a good relationship. That is a good world to live in. They've created a world in which they, there, there is space for them to thrive. So it's, it's sort of the music of a relationship. Is it a music of, like, mutual respect, adoration, or is it a, a, a music of, "Gotcha. This is where you failed. This is where you messed up"? So that's one dimension. I would say if a couple is, uh, changing together, meaning is there room for each of them to change at their own speed and together as a couple? Do they go through changes and evolutions? That's a really good quality of the relationship, that it's, it's, you know, that it doesn't break under pressure, but it changes under pressure. That's, that's a very strong quality. I mean, couples that don't argue scare me. I don't know what, how they, what, what happens there. What-- Do they just not talk, or do they not reveal ways in which they're different or... That's scary. Um-

    19. SP

      Tell me more on that. I like that

    20. OG

      ... like, what, how do you not never argue? Like, what-- Are you just the same person? Have you, have you become, like, enmeshed with each other, and everything about you that is different you just repress or dissociate? Are you so afraid of conflict? Are you... Where are you each? Have you vanished? It just seems unreal. I think the ability to face differences and, and back to what we were talking about earlier, find how, how have you faced your differences? How do you work through your differences is what's really interesting about a relationship, and that's where its life is.

    21. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    22. OG

      But can I ask you, what would you say-

    23. SP

      I, I really appreciate-

    24. OG

      ... about the markers of, like, a good relationship?

    25. SP

      I really appri-appreciate your answer. I think it's, um, it's, it's, it's unique. I've n- I've not heard those things before, and I appreciate that a lot. I think one where both people don't expect the other person to value what they value, but they allow the other person to have their values, and they have their own.

    26. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SP

      And both people respect each other's values, but they don't want the other person to believe as strongly about theirs-

    28. OG

      Yeah

    29. SP

      ... as they do the others.

    30. OG

      Yeah.

  19. 1:13:35 – 1:18:35

    What Really Makes Someone a Bad Partner?

    1. SP

      Yeah.

    2. OG

      And can I go back and ask you-

    3. SP

      Yeah

    4. OG

      ... I'm just curious what you think about, like, what for you is, like, a, a sign of a bad relationship?

    5. SP

      I wanna ask you, too. [sighs] I have a really interesting perspective on love and relationships, and it comes from my mom. Like, I believe my mom made me believe that I was lovable and that I feel that in my core. And so giving love for me feels very easy-

    6. OG

      Mm-hmm

    7. SP

      ... because I feel like I was showered in it since I was a kid.

    8. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SP

      And when I say love, I mean love. I don't mean things. I don't mean-

    10. OG

      Yeah

    11. SP

      ... stuff. I don't mean-- I, I mean, just I think my m- mom loves me, and I've always felt that my mom's love was a shield to early trauma that I did experience but didn't penetrate the shield. And so I feel very lucky. So I feel like I could love the whole world and never run out. Um-

    12. OG

      That's awesome

    13. SP

      ... and it, uh, and it comes from my mom. My mom gets the credit for that.

    14. OG

      Wow.

    15. SP

      And what you were saying when you were like, "Does the mom have that look in her eyes?"

    16. OG

      Yeah.

    17. SP

      Yeah, I was like, "My mom has that look." I could totally resonate.

    18. OG

      Yeah.

    19. SP

      I was like, "Yeah, that's my mom." So-

    20. OG

      That's why you can-

    21. SP

      Yeah, so I have a unlimited-

    22. OG

      Yeah, yeah.

    23. SP

      I feel an unlimited-- And of course, I feel very connected to God. I feel connected to Source. I-- So I feel a very unlimited sense of love.

    24. OG

      Yeah.

    25. SP

      It shows up in different ways. Sometimes setting love is setting boundaries [chuckles] and not overgiving or compassion fatigue and-

    26. OG

      Yeah

    27. SP

      ... you know, all those things have to be taken into account. But I think when you ask me what's a sign of a, a, a unhealthy relationship or, or a bad relationship, I think it's when I feel that we're both only looking at the other person's mistakes. We're not looking at our own.

    28. OG

      Mm-hmm.

    29. SP

      And we're looking for all accountability to be taken by the other person-

    30. OG

      Yeah

  20. 1:18:35 – 1:22:12

    Are You in Love with a Narcissist?

    1. SP

      thoughts on how often do you hear the word gaslighting in the office? Is it common? What's your take?

    2. OG

      Yeah, there are, there are a bunch of words that I hear a lot now in the office that I think come from TikTok. [chuckles]

    3. SP

      Yeah. Yeah.

    4. OG

      Like gaslighting, um-Triggers, trauma, um-

    5. SP

      Love bombing

    6. OG

      ... love bombing. Yeah, recently there was a lot of love bombing. I'm like-

    7. SP

      What are your reactions to this word? So when I say the word love bombing-

    8. OG

      Yeah

    9. SP

      ... what are your init- what are your instant thoughts?

    10. OG

      My instant thoughts are, first of all, I'm old. [laughs]

    11. SP

      [laughs]

    12. OG

      'Cause I, I came in with a different vocabulary. Um, and I typically ask people to-- or there's another one, activated. I'm activated. That's -- people are using that a lot.

    13. SP

      Mm.

    14. OG

      Triggered and activated. Um, I typically ask people to... I, like, play dumb, and I say, "Tell me what you mean. I don't know what you mean." Because the-- usually the, the way people use these words is they have a feeling about something, but they don't exactly know what that something is, so they grab a word, I guess, from TikTok, that kind of supposedly captures it, and then they're done thinking.

    15. SP

      Mm.

    16. OG

      They stop investigating themselves, or they stop really... They're, they're just like, "Aha, I found the culprit. Gaslighting. That's what's happening to me. I don't have to think about it anymore. Someone is bad." You know, it's usually like a-

    17. SP

      I love that. I agree with you.

    18. OG

      Yeah. It's usually a lot more complicated than, "I found the word and someone is bad."

    19. SP

      Yeah. It's almost a relief we feel when we find the word.

    20. OG

      Yeah.

    21. SP

      But actually, it's good and bad.

    22. OG

      He's a narcissist. He's a narcissist.

    23. SP

      Yeah. What's your take-

    24. OG

      He's gaslighting me.

    25. SP

      So I feel like the world has... Everyone feels like they've dated a narcissist.

    26. OG

      Mm-hmm. True.

    27. SP

      How accurate are they?

    28. OG

      A hundred percent accurate because we all have parts of ourselves that are narcissistically oriented, meaning they are to protect our sense of self. Some people move more to the extreme, and they're really, like, deeply wounded and, and have to spend a lot of energy protecting themselves and working around their ego. But most of us, in certain situations, we're provoked to behave in more narcissistic ways, and when we're offered other conditions, we can be more open and interested in the world.

    29. SP

      Mm.

    30. OG

      So it's usually the way it's used in pop language. It's usually just, like, a word that covers up a whole other world of things. I think when people talk about, "I've dated a narcissist," they're like, "That person didn't give me enough attention."

  21. 1:22:12 – 1:28:46

    The Money Struggles Behind Relationship Conflict

    1. SP

      When you find couples coming with financial issues-

    2. OG

      Mm-hmm

    3. SP

      ... is it really about money?

    4. OG

      Money is a big issue for people. Money is a big issue for people. You know, the question of money, one of the questions that people, that couples deal with when they're fighting or debating about money is the deep question of mine versus ours. What's mine, and what are we sharing? And the most concrete version of it is money, but it's everything. It's time. It's attention. It's air time. It's sex. It's so much is, like, mine versus ours. But money is like, especially in our culture, money is, like, the most concrete way to talk about it and to fight about it. Like, if you're making more money than your spouse or than your partner, who pays for dinner? Like, what, what's, what's the vibe between the two of you? Is it shared money or is it, "No, we're still going Dutch"? Right? Fights about money are, are, are about the concreteness of money, but they're also about where do I begin and end, and what's us together? Then there's a whole other thing with money, which is money is also something to do with our relationship with reality, right? You, you... I mean, back to the idea of someone hiding a suitcase with bills, unpaid bills under the bed. Like, how realistic is your relationship with reality, with what you have, with what you're making? Like, when people talk about money, they're talking about reality-

    5. SP

      Mm

    6. OG

      ... in certain ways.

    7. SP

      Mm.

    8. OG

      What I, I usually ask people, how do you think money should play out between the two of you? If you're making more money than your partner, what is your ideology on this? What do you really think should happen? Does that give you more power? Does that mean you should be making more of the decisions? Does that mean your partner should be paying for less? W-w- how do you think about it, each of you? Just what, what's your basic ideology? Which is hard for people to acknowledge, right? They, they wanna feel like, no, money doesn't matter, but it matters to everyone in some way or another. They have an ideology, so are they willing to put it on the table, to be honest with how they think about it? And then once you compare these ideologies, then we can have a discussion. It's back to the idea of, like, the, the couple creating the, their political backdrop.

    9. SP

      Mm.

    10. OG

      Like, what is the politics of this relationship? Are you, like, socialist or are you capitalist? Are youWhat's your economic system?

    11. SP

      What if we disagree? What if we vote differently?

    12. OG

      You probably will disagree.

    13. SP

      Yeah.

    14. OG

      On some level you will. Somewhere you will disagree, and then it's gonna get interesting.

    15. SP

      Yeah.

    16. OG

      It's gonna be like a Congress, like, right?

    17. SP

      Yeah.

    18. OG

      Debating what's the right way to do it. But it's better to have that debate on the table rather than act it out in those, like... What was that film? There was that-- Oh my God, it's a film in which, um, the sh- there's a shipwreck. There's this couple that are sitting at the dinner table, and they're looking at each other like, "Who's gonna pull out the credit card?"

    19. SP

      Oh, I don't know it.

    20. OG

      Brilliant scene. Everything about their relationship was in that scene. [chuckles]

    21. SP

      Oh, I don't know. I'm very sad.

    22. OG

      With her kind of pretending she lost her card.

    23. SP

      Oh, okay.

    24. OG

      And him but reluctantly pulling out his credit card, and then there was... It, it was just like perfect.

    25. SP

      I, I was, I was thinking of a movie called Fair Play on Netflix.

    26. OG

      I didn't see that.

    27. SP

      Did you see that?

    28. OG

      I heard about it. I didn't see it.

    29. SP

      It-- I would think you'd-- I'd, I don't know if you'd enjoy it. I don't know your taste in movies, but I think it's pretty interesting. It's a story about-- Well, it's a movie made about, uh, a couple who are competing for the same job because they work at the same company.

    30. OG

      Oh.

  22. 1:28:46 – 1:33:25

    Intimacy and Desire: What Keeps Love Alive

    1. SP

      yeah, I was gonna ask you, do more people want more intimacy or more sex?

    2. OG

      I think it depe- First of all, it's, it's a complicated thing to draw the line-

    3. SP

      Yeah

    4. OG

      ... between intimacy and sex.

    5. SP

      Oh, interesting. Okay.

    6. OG

      And I think it depends very much on the stage of the relationship. Early on, one of the things-- I mean, we all know that one of the things that binds people, one of the strongest glues is sex, like passion and excitement about each other and like, you know, wanting to get into bed together. And then at some point people start coming to terms with like differences, differences in scripts, differences in appetite. I know that the, the, m- like the stereotype is that men are more focused on sex and want more sex, and women want less or it's less important to them. I don't think that's actually true. I think, again, it's very hard to make generalizations, and it changes between like-

    7. SP

      Yeah

    8. OG

      ... straight and queer couples, so it's, it's really not necessarily about the biology. But, um, but I think typically there, there are different focuses for men and women, and then later in the relationship things change because I think later in the relationship the, the, the line between sex and intimacy gets very blurry.

    9. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    10. OG

      And I think generally everyone wants both intimacy and sex. Everyone wants it, and everyone wishes it for themselves and, and wants it in large quantities. [chuckles] Everyone needs it, but they focus on different things. Like-

    11. SP

      And no one has energy for it.

    12. OG

      And no one has energy for it, and anyway, a lot of it is about wanting to feel desire of some sort.

    13. SP

      That's what it is. Wow.

    14. OG

      That's really what it is, and not necessarily wanting, you know, oh, I need to, to have it three times a week, or I need this, or I need that. It's, it's, it's a lot about the experience of desire and being desired that is really kind of theThe thing we all want, the, the, the, to be living in desire rather than living in a certain kind of deadness. That's ultimately what everyone wants.

    15. SP

      That's so powerful because it goes back to what we were talking about earlier of like we just want someone to believe in us.

    16. OG

      Yeah.

    17. SP

      It's like we just want that feeling of like-

    18. OG

      Yes

    19. SP

      ... I have value, I have something to give.

    20. OG

      Yes.

    21. SP

      I'm, I'm wanted.

    22. OG

      I'm desired.

    23. SP

      I'm desired.

    24. OG

      Yeah.

    25. SP

      I'm needed.

    26. OG

      And people wanna feel desire, to feel desired, and also to feel desire-

    27. SP

      Desire

    28. OG

      ... for the other.

    29. SP

      And it's so interesting because it feels like our partners are the people that make us feel the least of everything-

    30. OG

      Right

  23. 1:33:25 – 1:41:58

    Orna on Final Five

    1. SP

      we end every On Purpose interview with a final five.

    2. OG

      Okay. Oh.

    3. SP

      These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

    4. OG

      Okay.

    5. SP

      So Orna, these are your final five.

    6. OG

      Okay.

    7. SP

      The first question is what is the best relationship advice you've ever heard or received?

    8. OG

      Stay in your own lane.

    9. SP

      The best relationship?

    10. OG

      The best.

    11. SP

      Why? How is the ... How does it ... Uh, tell me.

    12. OG

      It means don't intrude on someone else's journey.

    13. SP

      Mm.

    14. OG

      Like, stay in your own lane, do the thing you're supposed to do, and live and let live.

    15. SP

      Yeah.

    16. OG

      That's, that's the best way to create a good environment for a relationship.

    17. SP

      Second question: What is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received?

    18. OG

      Don't let him get away with it.

    19. SP

      Mm. Why is that bad advice?

    20. OG

      'Cause that's paranoid. It's like a, a, a, like be suspicious, be paranoid, don't give the benefit of the doubt, guard your own. It's not a good attitude.

    21. SP

      Because?

    22. OG

      Because the way you, the way you approach, the way you look at a person, speaking of what we've, that's what you're gonna get back. If you, if you're paranoid about someone, they're gonna be bad. [laughs]

    23. SP

      Yeah. And it steals your energy.

    24. OG

      And it steals your energy.

    25. SP

      Yeah.

    26. OG

      Right.

    27. SP

      Question number three: What's something you used to believe was true about couples-

    28. OG

      Mm-hmm

    29. SP

      ... but now you have a different view on it?

    30. OG

      Maybe I used to believe that compatibility is the most important thing, and now I think, like I said earlier, that the capacity to love someone-

Episode duration: 1:41:58

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