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The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe Jefferson Fisher Podcast

Finance Expert: How You Talk About Money Matters Ft. Vivian Tu

Money might be one of the hardest conversations we avoid having. In this episode, I sit down with money expert Vivian Tu to talk about why money feels so uncomfortable, how the way we grew up shapes our financial habits, and how to have better conversations about money with your partner, your kids, and even your boss. Vivian also shares when to bring up money while dating, who should pay on the first date, and how to ask for the raise you deserve. Check out Ask Dolly here! https://askdolly.com/JF Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter Thank you to our Sponsors: Tiny Health: Go to https://tinyhealth.com/jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test kit. Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/

Jefferson FisherhostVivian Tuguest
Sep 11, 202647mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:08

    Money mindset: Scarcity vs. “not in the budget” language

    1. JF

      Is there a difference in how the top talk about money versus how the bottom talk about money?

    2. VT

      People who are the bottom will say, "We can't afford that." People at the top will say, "It's not currently in the budget."

    3. JF

      [laughs]

    4. VT

      It's the exact same thing. And unfortunately, for a very long time, we have equated your value as a human being with your net worth. So when you have debt, we consider it a moral failure. We think you're a bad person. So I get this job at JP Morgan. I was very literally only sitting next to rich people, and I hate to say it, they're doing it better than us because-

    5. JF

      Yeah

    6. VT

      ... when they talk about money, they have more to compare. They're trading secrets.

    7. JF

      At what point in a dating relationship should you bring up money?

    8. VT

      Soon as possible, baby.

    9. JF

      It's like first date?

    10. VT

      Yeah. Easing into the money conversation is always the best way to do it. We-

    11. JF

      How do you ease into it?

    12. VT

      Yeah. You and I are on a dinner date, and I say, "If a million dollars dropped into your lap, what would you do? Would you still be an attorney?"

    13. JF

      Yes.

    14. VT

      That tells me you likely aren't motivated by the money you're making as an attorney, and that you actually really enjoy your job.

    15. JF

      I've seen a lot of things in the news about good, hardworking employees being laid off. At this point in time, should we be asking for raises, or should we just be thankful that we have jobs?

    16. VT

      Loyalty to your company [beep] . Let me be very clear.

  2. 1:08 – 4:09

    Why money is so hard to talk about: the childhood conditioning cycle

    1. JF

      Why is it that talking about money seems to be harder than talking about everything else?

    2. VT

      Yeah.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. VT

      Um, because we've been conditioned that way, right? Um, so here's the story. You're- we're sitting around the family table. Little Johnny goes, "Mom, Dad, like, how much is our house worth?" You're like, " [gasps] Johnny, please don't ask that. That's so rude."

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. VT

      Okay? Fla- flash forward a couple years. Little Johnny's like, "Hey, Dad, how much do you make? The kids at school were talking about how much their dads make."

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. VT

      And Dad's like, "Little Johnny, don't ask that. That's so rude."

    9. JF

      Mm.

    10. VT

      Okay? Then suddenly, little Johnny's 18, signs a six-figure student loan contract.

    11. JF

      [laughs] Yeah.

    12. VT

      Little Johnny is now 21, needs a credit score to rent his first apartment.

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. VT

      Doesn't know how to fill out his tax return at the end of the year or in April. Little Johnny has no idea how to negotiate for his salary at his job. Little Johnny has no idea how to budget. Little Johnny has no idea that he should be saving, doesn't really understand how a credit card works, but they'll give him one.

    15. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    16. VT

      They'll give him one, for sure.

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. VT

      And little Johnny's not investing 'cause he's never even heard his parents talking about investing. If we talked about money the same way we talk about literally anything else at the dinner table, we would be able to talk about money. Think about it. Your parents talked about their political affiliations, which is typically a taboo topic at the dinner table. I remember because kids were coming to school and parroting what their parents were saying.

    19. JF

      Sure.

    20. VT

      Your parents talk about pop culture. Like, I have 1,000% sat down and talked to my mom and dad about movies coming out or music that I'm listening to, things like that. Great.

    21. JF

      Yeah.

    22. VT

      You've talked about sports. You've talked about religion. Like, my husband grew up in a Catholic family.

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. VT

      He went to a Catholic high school. They talked about religion certainly.

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    26. VT

      And, you know, we talk about all of these, quote-unquote, "hot button taboo topics." Think of the last time your parents sat down and said, "Hey, we need to talk about how much you're probably going to inherit."

    27. JF

      Right.

    28. VT

      Never.

    29. JF

      Yeah.

    30. VT

      Isn't that crazy?

  3. 4:09 – 10:25

    Status, comparison, and fear of judgment (and why culture matters)

    1. VT

      I think in part, one, um, because of how media has made us think about money. Um, for a very long time we have equated your value as a human being with your net worth.

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. VT

      Think about it. You're going to a cocktail party. I meet you for the first time. What's the first question out of our mouths? "So what do you do?"

    4. JF

      Right.

    5. VT

      Like, why does the first question that I ask you as a stranger have anything to do with what you do for a job? Like, why am I not like, "Hey, what's your favorite hobby?"

    6. JF

      Yeah.

    7. VT

      Like, "Hey," like, "what is, what is your favorite restaurant to try around here?" That's never the first question. It's, "So what do you do?"

    8. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. VT

      And the fact that the answer to "So what do you do" is your job says a lot about what we're trying to signal.

    10. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    11. VT

      Because when you are a high-powered attorney, that's a, that's a social status symbol.

    12. JF

      Right.

    13. VT

      That's a, that's a good job. That's a fancy job.

    14. JF

      It's a s- yeah.

    15. VT

      In, in some sectors.

    16. JF

      For sure, and it quickly gets into a stereotype and like, "Oh, okay," and-

    17. VT

      Yeah. Like, you're a lawyer, so my assumption is you're smarter than the average person.

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. VT

      My assumption is you make more money than the average person. My assumption is you live a certain type of lifestyle, right?

    20. JF

      Right.

    21. VT

      You're responsible. You're dependable. Good job.

    22. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. VT

      Whereas we have now made it so that, like, your amount of money in your bank account is a representation of you as a moral win or a moral failure. So when you have debt, we consider it a moral failure. We think you're a bad person. Oh, like, you're a bad mom. You had to put those groceries on a credit card, and you couldn't afford them.

    24. JF

      Mm-hmm. Or if the mom's working.

    25. VT

      Or if the mom's working.

    26. JF

      Yeah.

    27. VT

      There's so much perspective around money because it is an indicator of so many other behavioral characteristics, even though that may not necessarily be true, and it certainly leads to a lot of bias.

    28. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    29. VT

      What I will say is that- We are getting better. You're seeing young people now on social media saying things like, "I can't believe my rent costs this much," or, "So I was on this date, and this guy made me split the bill." Like, we're talking about money in a way that was not seen decades ago-

    30. JF

      Mm-hmm

  4. 10:25 – 12:10

    Social media and the K-shaped economy: why comparison feels worse now

    1. VT

      I think it's gotten worse in terms of, like, that insecurity and that comparison game bec-

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm

    3. VT

      ... and, and by the way, this is, like, statistically shown and proven. Um, you've probably heard the term the K-shaped economy.

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. VT

      Um, which is just a fancy way of saying the rich got richer, and the poor got poorer. Um, I would say probably about 50 years ago, there was a much more robust middle class, and because of that, things didn't feel that, like, comparison-y because you could only compare to the people you could see.

    6. JF

      Hmm.

    7. VT

      And so, you know, your parents are looking out their front window, and they're like, "Ooh, the Davises got a new flat-screen TV."

    8. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    9. VT

      It's like, I see the box in the recycling.

    10. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. VT

      Um, but they couldn't see into the super fancy, you know, Beverly Hills gated neighborhood-

    12. JF

      Right

    13. VT

      ... 'cause they weren't in that tax bracket, and they didn't live there. Now, I can get into Kim K's private plane on my phone.

    14. JF

      [laughs]

    15. VT

      I should have no idea what the inside of a private jet looks like. I'm not in that tax bracket.

    16. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    17. VT

      Like [laughs] I have no business knowing what the private islands look like. I have no business-

    18. JF

      Mm-hmm

    19. VT

      ... knowing what, you know, the people f- taking their PJs into Davos are doing. But I can.

    20. JF

      Yeah.

    21. VT

      And now there's a phrase like, "Why did you show it to me if I couldn't have it?" People want it. And so it's really the, the game of a, a measuring contest-

    22. JF

      Mm

    23. VT

      ... of like, what do you have? What don't I have? What do I need to get to get there? And, like, is my life better than yours? 'Cause it's not just, is my life better than yours, but it's like- Can you see-

    24. JF

      Yeah

    25. VT

      ... that my life is better than yours?

    26. JF

      Mm.

    27. VT

      It's a showing off of it.

  5. 12:10 – 13:13

    Sponsor break and reset: returning to “top vs bottom” money talk

    1. JF

      Before we get going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Tiny Health. Sometimes you just don't feel yourself, and maybe it's what you, uh, ate, maybe it's how you slept. You're not really sure, or maybe it's something a little bit deeper there in your gut. Tiny Health is a at-home gut health test. We used it in our home for our daughter. She was having some stomach issues, and so we took the Tiny Health at home test, and what we got back was fantastic. It listed all of the microbiome that was going on, so all of the, um, bacteria that's in there, saying what's good, what's bad, it'd have recommendations for what we should do and what's really going on. Really helpful, really insightful. And because of that, we have a much happier tummy [laughs] here at home. Right now, uh, you can go to tinyhealth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test. That's tinyhealth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson for $50 off. Now, let's keep going. Is there a difference in how the top talk about money versus how the bottom talk about money?

  6. 13:13 – 16:12

    Behind the curtain at JPMorgan: how the wealthy trade ‘secrets’

    1. VT

      Yeah, 100%. The top loves talking about money. You ever been to a golf course that's, like, really, really private?

    2. JF

      I have, and I've, I, I felt-

    3. VT

      Out of water

    4. JF

      ... awkward. I felt so awkward.

    5. VT

      Yeah. Um, it's so funny 'cause I never had this experience until I actually started my job where I was a trader at JP Morgan. And I sat shoulder to shoulder, and I was the, the youngest person on the desk, definitely the brokest. And to hear the way people were talking about money, of deploying capital-

    6. JF

      [laughs]

    7. VT

      ... or we're going to go out east. East of what?

    8. JF

      [laughs]

    9. VT

      Where are we going?

    10. JF

      This is a totally different lingo.

    11. VT

      Like, I was like, I, I feel like I need a, you know, Merriam-Webster for what you guys are saying, 'cause I literally didn't understand.

    12. JF

      Mm.

    13. VT

      And it is very much a rules for thee but not for me. Rich people talk about money all the time. They love talking about money. People are talking about their personal portfolios.

    14. JF

      'Cause they have it. Yeah.

    15. VT

      They have it. They, there was no sense of, like, your house is bigger than mine, because we all had big houses.

    16. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    17. VT

      They all had big houses. I had a 650 square foot apartment, so I had no idea what was going on. But to hear them have that conversation, I was like, "Oh, so it is okay to do these things." And I think a lot of my comfort now stems from the fact that I was very much an outsider, came from only child to two immigrant parents, went to the University of Chicago, where I was suddenly exposed to a lot of incredibly wealthy international students, a lot of incredibly wealthy legacy students, and then put into a job where I was l- very literally only sitting next to rich people.

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. VT

      And I got a peek behind the curtain, and I hate to say it, they're doing it better than us. They're doing it better than the regular people. Because-

    20. JF

      Yeah

    21. VT

      ... when they talk about money, they have more to compare, and they're trading secrets. They're saying, "Oh, I had a really good mortgage broker get me the best, lowest possible rate. You should use my broker."

    22. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. VT

      "I scratch your back. Oh, you belong to that one country club that I haven't been able to get an in at? You're going to be my sponsor there."

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. VT

      Now we've scratched each other's backs. Then it's ... People would go to this, they, they would all go to one guy's dentist. They all shared one dentist.

    26. JF

      [laughs]

    27. VT

      They all shared one-

    28. JF

      Yeah

    29. VT

      ... it was crazy, the amount-

    30. JF

      That's-

  7. 16:12 – 19:04

    The PR spin of wealth: debt vs leverage, scarcity vs abundance

    1. VT

      Yeah. Um, everything at the top gets a PR spin in the same way that, you know, um, what is it, lamb is mutton.

    2. JF

      Yeah.

    3. VT

      You know, uh, beef is cows or whatever.

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. VT

      It's very much poor people have debt. Rich people use leverage.

    6. JF

      Oh, so it's like poor people call it debt.

    7. VT

      Yeah. Rich people have leverage.

    8. JF

      They call it leverage. Yeah.

    9. VT

      I, yeah. I have leverage. That's why I was able to purchase that, that home. Poor people, you have, you took out a loan. You have debt. Um, we talk about money as like, oh, I have cash. I have dry powder. I have capital. I have something to use as a tool. And it's, it seems like the real stark differentiation, for me at least, is the amount of abundance rich people talk about money with. It always seems like there's more coming. It al- it never feels like that faucet's gonna turn off. Whereas people who are not at the top, it feels very scarce.

    10. JF

      Mm.

    11. VT

      It's always something that's running out. It's something that you have to hold so close to your chest, something you have to grip onto and hold onto forever.

    12. JF

      Mm.

    13. VT

      And it changes how we discuss. So people who are at the bottom will say, "We can't afford that." People at the top will say, "It's not currently in the budget."

    14. JF

      [laughs]

    15. VT

      It's the exact same thing.

    16. JF

      Right.

    17. VT

      By the way.

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. VT

      Because even rich people can't afford certain things, but they would never tell you that.

    20. JF

      Yeah.

    21. VT

      It's not currently in my budget.

    22. JF

      And I'm thinking o- of the, the single mom, uh, who has three kids-

    23. VT

      Yeah

    24. JF

      ... hanging onto her grocery cart-

    25. VT

      Yeah

    26. JF

      ... while she's pushing it.

    27. VT

      Yeah.

    28. JF

      And she just got off work, and the kids bring her a candy or toy, and she's-

    29. VT

      Yeah

    30. JF

      ... you know, "We can't, we can't afford it."

  8. 19:04 – 24:53

    Immigrant scarcity and money scar tissue: the ripped-jeans turning point

    1. VT

      Because my family came here as immigrants. I feel very lucky I was born in this country. Um, but things were hard for my parents when I was younger. Um-

    2. JF

      What country?

    3. VT

      China.

    4. JF

      Yeah. And h- how, how was their, how was their thinking of money different from how you are now?

    5. VT

      Um, well, it took me a while to kind of unlearn some of those bad habits. Like, I heard the phrase, "We can't afford that," all the time, from everything to, you know, candy in the grocery store that my mom probably just didn't want me eating all the way to toys, all the way to jeans that I wanted as a preteen with the rips in them.

    6. JF

      Mm-hmm. [laughs]

    7. VT

      Um, but, you know, I think one of the most memorable experiences was I was a preteen. I went to the mall with my, you know, best friend at the time, uh, my childhood best friend, and we went and we bought these jeans from Abercrombie & Fitch. We came home. By the way, these were the cool girl jeans.

    8. JF

      You just gave me so many memories-

    9. VT

      It-

    10. JF

      ... just by saying that name

    11. VT

      ... like, first off, like the, the smell of that perfume is, like, burned into my mind. Um [laughs]

    12. JF

      [laughs]

    13. VT

      And then the, like, naked men on the bags.

    14. JF

      Yeah.

    15. VT

      Yeah.

    16. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    17. VT

      Um, so you come home, and, and m- my mom found the jeans and the receipt in the bag, and she saw how much I had spent on these jeans, and she blew me up. She was like, "Who do you think you are spending this much money?"

    18. JF

      Mm.

    19. VT

      Like, "You don't understand the value of a dollar." And I, as a young person, the only thing I could think to say was, "Well, she got a pair, too."

    20. JF

      Oh.

    21. VT

      And my mom, she looked so defeated, and she said, "Well, her dad's a lawyer, and your parents aren't millionaires."

    22. JF

      Mm.

    23. VT

      And I am angsty preteen/teen. I run up to my room, slam the door, and I am in tears. And I'm so sad because my mom just told me I was not deserving of those jeans because of a circumstance beyond my control.

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. VT

      And I made a promise to myself that day. I was like, "No one is ever going to deny me ripped jeans ever again."

    26. JF

      Yeah.

    27. VT

      And I was like, "I'm gonna be rich. I don't care what it takes." And that manifested in a hunger in school because I knew my parents had always told me that, like, in this country, your education is, like, kind of the one ticket to socioeconomic mobility.

    28. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    29. VT

      And that's what I was told, so I was the valedictorian of my high school class. I go to a school like U Chicago. I think I'm on the up and up. I get good grades. I graduate with honors. I get this job at JPMorgan. I'm there, Jefferson.

    30. JF

      Mm-hmm.

  9. 24:53 – 30:14

    Dating and money: start early, but don’t be weird—use values questions

    1. JF

      I wanna switch gears and talk about, um, romantic relationships-

    2. VT

      Let's do it

    3. JF

      ... or, or dating or-

    4. VT

      Yeah

    5. JF

      ... anything else. So at what point in a dating relationship should you bring up money?

    6. VT

      Soon as possible, baby.

    7. JF

      It's like first date?

    8. VT

      Yeah. Why not?

    9. JF

      So is this like, "Show me how much you..."

    10. VT

      No.

    11. JF

      What do you think?

    12. VT

      No, no, don't be a weirdo.

    13. JF

      So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. VT

      Okay.

    15. JF

      What do you want to eat? You wanna do this? You're paying for this, right?

    16. VT

      Yeah, yeah, no.

    17. JF

      How much money do you make? Like, [laughs] what do you, what do you do?

    18. VT

      [laughs] What I like to say is that, like, easing into the money conversation is always the best way to do it. Like, you're not showing up to date one being like, "Show me your pay stub." Like-

    19. JF

      Right

    20. VT

      ... truly-

    21. JF

      Well, how do you, how do you ease into it?

    22. VT

      Yeah. Okay. You and I are on a dinner date.

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. VT

      And I say, "Oh, okay. Um, if a million dollars dropped into your lap tomorrow, what would you do? Would you still be an attorney?"

    25. JF

      Yes.

    26. VT

      But see, that teaches me something about you, right?

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. VT

      It tells me that you likely aren't motivated by the money you're making as an attorney-

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm

    30. VT

      ... and that you actually really enjoy your job.

  10. 30:14 – 34:54

    Escalating the money talk: exclusivity, splitting dates, and first trip budgeting

    1. JF

      do you say, "Okay- I kind of see a future with this person

    2. VT

      Mm-hmm

    3. JF

      We need to now escalate-

    4. VT

      Yeah, yeah

    5. JF

      ... the seriousness-

    6. VT

      Yeah

    7. JF

      ... of the conversation about what do we, what are we doing? Who's bringing what?

    8. VT

      Yeah. So I would say this happens when you have decided that you are gonna go on multiple dates with this person, and you really only wanna see this person. Like, we are... Like, you're not in the dating phase of, like, dating all the different fish.

    9. JF

      This is my person.

    10. VT

      You have chosen your fish.

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. VT

      Um, you don't have to necessarily have fully defined the relationship yet, but, like, even if, like, you are going on multiple dates together, when I was chatting with my husband about this, we were... He's a year-and-a-half older than me, so I... And he worked in finance when we first started dating, as did I, so he knew roughly what I was making, and I knew roughly what he was making-

    13. JF

      Mm

    14. VT

      ... because those were kind of consistent-

    15. JF

      Yeah

    16. VT

      ... at the different banks at that time. And so I was like, "Hmm, well, we've now been on four dates, and he's paid for all of them." Like, I actually care about this person. I don't wanna put them out. So I asked him, I was like, "Hey, you've, like, paid for the last four dates. Like, you know, I, you're, you're a banker. You're doing great."

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. VT

      "But, like, should we talk about, like, how we should split dinners and stuff going forward?"

    19. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. VT

      And he was like, "Wow, that's, like, really thoughtful that you brought that up and even, like, cared to ask." I think it's about, like, seeing the load that is being held by any one person in a partnership, in a relationship. And what we decided was that he was still making more than me, so he was gonna pay for dinner more, but, like, I would be picking up a certain number of our meals together.

    21. JF

      Yeah.

    22. VT

      Um, ultimately, that became an even bigger conversation, because, do not do this, um, irresponsibly, I decided to go on vacation with a strange man that I had met, you know, probably 45 days prior.

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. VT

      Ended up working out for me.

    25. JF

      Yeah [laughs] .

    26. VT

      But, um, you know, me, I could've been taken, but he was fine. He wasn't a killer.

    27. JF

      This is... Oh, got it.

    28. VT

      This is my husband, yeah.

    29. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, got it.

    30. VT

      So it worked out great for me.

  11. 34:54 – 37:56

    Who pays on dates—and why gender economics shape the debate

    1. VT

      Well, I just think whoever invites should pay.

    2. JF

      I like that rule. If you set it up, if you-

    3. VT

      Yeah

    4. JF

      ... set the dinner up. Well, what if you're the only one who sets up the dinners? I guess you're the one who's gonna be paying.

    5. VT

      What do you mean?

    6. JF

      Like, if you're the one that's... Like, okay, let's put it this way. In, um, least the way I was raised-

    7. VT

      Yeah

    8. JF

      ... the guy-

    9. VT

      Yeah

    10. JF

      ... is to be chivalrous.

    11. VT

      Yeah.

    12. JF

      And if he wants to date somebody and go steady with somebody, you say, "I would like to go on a date with you."

    13. VT

      Yeah.

    14. JF

      "And let's go have a dinner."

    15. VT

      Yeah.

    16. JF

      And so you're the one that's gonna be paying.

    17. VT

      Picking up the tab.

    18. JF

      Which has zero problem. I also know people that are like, "Oh, no, there should be a discussion of, no, I- I'll ha- I'll do my half. You do your half," uh, because it's the guy always doesn't have to pay or whatever. And I was raised very much the guy, which I agree with, the, the guys pays.

    19. VT

      I don't think the guy has to pay, but I'm just gonna say I've never gone on a second date with someone who made me pay for half the first date.

    20. JF

      [laughs] Yeah.

    21. VT

      Like-

    22. JF

      I'd say that's a good rule

    23. VT

      ... like-

    24. JF

      That's a good rule

    25. VT

      ... like, no one's holding a gun to your head.

    26. JF

      Yeah.

    27. VT

      But-

    28. JF

      Yeah, yeah

    29. VT

      ... if you're trying to see me again, show a little investment.

    30. JF

      Yes.

  12. 37:56 – 40:03

    Marriage and money systems: ‘yours, mine, and ours’ + financial safety

    1. JF

      Do you think there is a, a place where ... I know couples that are married and still split finances.

    2. VT

      Yeah.

    3. JF

      Even though they're married.

    4. VT

      Yeah.

    5. JF

      Do you see advantages or disadvantages to that? Or is it just like, you go, "Ah, you know what? To each their own."

    6. VT

      Um, I think it's a to each their own, but what I encourage everybody listening to this to do-

    7. JF

      Hmm

    8. VT

      ... is still make sure you have your own money. I do not care how much you are in love with your spouse. I do not care how good they are to you, how rich they are, I don't care. You need to have your own money, your own bank account, that they are not a joint account holder on, that is only yours and you need to have it because 99% of domestic violence cases include financial abuse.

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. VT

      And unfortunately, for many, in the majority of women, if you can't afford to leave, you don't.

    11. JF

      Right.

    12. VT

      And so I'll be honest, my husband and I use a yours, mine, and ours system. So we each have our own money and that we can use to really, you know, be spending on things. Like he wants to go play a round of golf with his friends, great. Go do that. Like, I'm not watching your pockets.

    13. JF

      Yeah. For me it's a Yeti cooler. That's pretty much what I'm-

    14. VT

      Another Yeti cooler?

    15. JF

      Yeah. I, I can't have enough. It's bad.

    16. VT

      What are you cooling?

    17. JF

      I don't know. I really ... Most of the time nothing. I think, I think I just like them. I don't know.

    18. VT

      Like you have a fridge.

    19. JF

      I do, but no, I can't take the fridge with me and I think I, this, it ... If I did, it would-

    20. VT

      Mm-hmm

    21. JF

      ... I would want another one.

    22. VT

      Oh, okay.

    23. JF

      That would make it three.

    24. VT

      Okay.

    25. JF

      You have to have ones of different sizes with you.

    26. VT

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. JF

      It, it's a whole thing.

    28. VT

      Sure. Sure. Sure.

    29. JF

      Anyway, go ahead. It's a process.

    30. VT

      Uh, and for me, if I wanna go and buy a beautiful dress or I wanna go get, you know, my nails done, like I wanna be able to do that. I work very hard. I make my money.

  13. 40:03 – 43:10

    Stay-at-home partners and permission dynamics: having the hard conversation

    1. JF

      So I want, I want you to speak to ... It makes me think of women-

    2. VT

      Yeah

    3. JF

      ... who I know who the, their husband makes all of the income.

    4. VT

      Yep.

    5. JF

      And makes all of the money decisions. And-

    6. VT

      I hate that

    7. JF

      ... there are these ... But that's the reality.

    8. VT

      Yeah.

    9. JF

      And they don't want, they ... If, if they were to buy anything that would be considered semi-expensive, they have to go get permission. Okay?

    10. VT

      Yeah.

    11. JF

      That's a reality.

    12. VT

      Yeah. No, it is.

    13. JF

      Um, and how do you speak to those women who say, "Vivian, that sounds great. I would love the security of what," that's what that is, of just that sense of control over some amount that is just mine.

    14. VT

      Yeah.

    15. JF

      But I am not working-

    16. VT

      Yeah

    17. JF

      ... because I'm raising these kids.

    18. VT

      Yeah.

    19. JF

      And if I were to ever bring up the conversation of I'd like my own money-

    20. VT

      Yeah

    21. JF

      ... that's gonna bring a lot of hard conversations.

    22. VT

      Conversations. Unfortunately, I think you have to have the hard conversation.

    23. JF

      Okay.

    24. VT

      And the hard conversation doesn't have to be, "Hey, I don't trust you. I'm planning on leaving at some point."

    25. JF

      Right, right, right.

    26. VT

      Like, "Give me my own money." No. It's, "Hey," like, "we have made a decision as a family that it doesn't make sense for me to be in the workforce because childcare is too expensive," or, you know, we've decided that we need someone at home who's the household CEO. But just because the working spouse is the one going out of the house and making-

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm

    28. VT

      ... the money-

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm

    30. VT

      ... that wouldn't necessarily be possible if the stay-at-home spouse wasn't taking care of everything at home.

  14. 43:10 – 46:10

    Teaching kids money skills: age-appropriate practice in real life

    1. JF

      How do you ... How, how should somebody think of talking to their kids about money?

    2. VT

      Mm. I think having age-appropriate conversations is the best thing we can do for them. I'm not asking you to share all of your financial details to a fifth grader who's 1,000%, by the way, taking it to school and telling all of his friends.

    3. JF

      [laughs] Yeah.

    4. VT

      All of her friends, they're gonna know. What I'm saying is, like, when you go to the grocery store, and you have a budget, and the groceries for the week, you budgeted $120 for, okay? And you are going through the cart. And you can literally do the exercise. So, "Hey, Dad loves brand name O's. Brand name O's cost-

    5. JF

      I love O's

    6. VT

      ... f- four dollars a box, okay? Store brand O's cost $2.30. What's the difference?"

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. VT

      Have them do that math. Like, you know, a fifth grader should certainly be able to do that math pretty easily. But also, like, what is the value of one versus the other? I want that kid to be like, "Why don't we just get the store brand O's, and then you can give me that 1.70-

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm

    10. VT

      ... for a candy bar?" That's budget, that's budgeting. That's prioritization. That candy bar has been prioritized over your name brand O's.

    11. JF

      [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

    12. VT

      And listen, like, I'm, I'm making a joke about your cereal comment, but, like, that is a skill that that kid will one day have to do for themself.

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. VT

      Of, what are the trade-offs? If I have a finite amount of money, what groceries am I buying? How am I making smart decisions? As they get older, "Hey, sit down. We gotta have a conversation, okay? This is how much Mom makes. Mom and I are having, you know, a, a, a discussion about her next career move. She is being offered a job that pays more but is further away.

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. VT

      Or a job that pays less and is still closer to home." The trade-off is, if she takes the job that's a little further away, you know, maybe she can't make it to every single cheerleading practice. Maybe she can't make it to every single ballet recital. Like, have that discussion as a family. Obviously, the adults are going to have to make the-

    17. JF

      Yeah

    18. VT

      ... you know, the true end-all, be-all discussion. But, like, include them.

    19. JF

      Right.

    20. VT

      I feel like so many kids also feel like they're being jerked around by their parents, and just hammered with big decisions at the last minute. Why not have the discussion? Because at some point, that kid is also going to have to decide, do I opt for a longer commute for higher pay or a shorter one? Or which apartment is more expensive? And when you prepare them for those life skills during a time when it doesn't, where the stakes are zero-

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm

    22. VT

      ... because you're still covering the bills, you're still taking care of them, it doesn't feel so scary when they do it the next time.

    23. JF

      Yeah, I think one of the best ways you could start to talk to your kids about money is to s- talk to, start talking to your kids-

    24. VT

      Start talking to them about money

    25. JF

      ... about money.

    26. VT

      Yeah.

  15. 46:10 – 47:10

    Building financial tools at scale: Vivian introduces the Ask Dolly app

    1. JF

      And I wanna make sure that my audience hears, because I know you've been working on something-

    2. VT

      Mm-hmm

    3. JF

      ... that to me has just totally blown the roof off of any kind of money financial tools. Uh, and it's so much more than that. But I want you to tell me and tell, uh, our listeners about your app, Ask Dolly, because this thing is just, uh, incredible. And I wish, Vivian, I wish I had this when I was, like, starting in college.

    4. VT

      [laughs]

    5. JF

      Probably even earlier.

    6. VT

      So basically, I was getting so many questions about money in my DMs. And because I felt like-

    7. JF

      Is it your AI?

    8. VT

      It's-

    9. JF

      A blank

    10. VT

      ... it's not, actually.

    11. JF

      Okay.

    12. VT

      It's way better than that. Um, I've built a standalone app that allows you to do a financial wellness assessment of your money. So, you know how you go and get a physical every year?

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. VT

      And they take your blood, and they're like, "Hey, Jefferson, everything looks great, but you gotta watch that cholesterol."

    15. JF

      Right.

    16. VT

      Because there are certain things that you're doing really well and certain things that you need to improve on. We do the exact same thing, but with your money.

Episode duration: 47:10

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