Joe Rogan Experience #1064 - Eddie Huang & Jessica Rosenworcel

1. 0:01 – 1:20

   Why the FCC net neutrality repeal matters for “the future of everything”

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Five, four, three, two, one. And we're live. Uh, welcome aboard, Jessica Rosenworcel. Did I do it?

   2. JRJessica Rosenworcel0:11

      You did.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      (sighs) I was so nervous about that.

   4. EHEddie Huang0:14

      Don't worry (laughs) .

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      And Eddie Huang, of course. He's been on the podcast many times.

   6. EHEddie Huang0:18

      Number one podcast in the world.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      Oh, thank you.

   8. EHEddie Huang0:20

      JRE.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      What's up, brother? How are you?

   10. EHEddie Huang0:22

       I'm chilling, man. I'm, I'm good. I just, uh, you know, I wanted to introduce you to the homie-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       (laughs)

   12. EHEddie Huang0:27

       ... the commissioner from the FCC, Jessica Rosenworcel, 'cause thing- things are, things are bad for the internet right now.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       Well, you are very concerned, and a lot of people are, about net neutrality. And, uh, we all have some questions about it and we're excited to talk to you about it, so maybe we could, uh, illuminate some of the issues and, and give us a, an understanding or try to l- uh, help us understand what's at stake here and why are people so concerned?

   14. JRJessica Rosenworcel0:54

       Well, I think people are concerned 'cause the future of the internet's the future of everything.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       Right.

   16. JRJessica Rosenworcel0:59

       I mean, every aspect of our lives is now touched by that connectivity. And it's a funny thing, but the agency where I work in Washington, the Federal Communications Commission, has enormous power and control over our internet experience. And for decades, we've had these policies that have been all about internet openness, and what that means is you can go where you want-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       Mm-hmm.

2. 1:20 – 2:03

   What providers can now legally do: blocking, throttling, and paid prioritization

   1. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:20

      ... do what you want online, and your broadband provider can't get in the way or prevent you from looking at some websites or looking at some videos or setting up some businesses. But that changed last month in Washington when the FCC, over my objections, voted to end net neutrality. And as a result, all of our broadband providers now have the legal right to block websites, to throttle content, and to set up sweetheart paid-for prioritization deals. And over the long haul, that could really change the internet and the web as we know it.

3. 2:03 – 3:03

   Ajit Pai and the deregulation argument vs. the monopoly reality

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:03

      Now, one of the arguments f- pro-net neutrality, um, one of the arguments for people that were excited about this being signed, what they were saying that net neutrality was really, uh, only over the last couple years. And before the last couple years, net neutrality as we know it, the last couple years everything was fine and that it'll continue to be fine and that people are just panicked. And there was that really bizarre video that that one dude made where he was saying that, "These are all the things you're gonna be able to do." You work with that cat?

   2. JRJessica Rosenworcel2:33

      (smacks lips) I do.

   3. EHEddie Huang2:34

      (laughs) Ajit.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:34

      What is it?

   5. EHEddie Huang2:35

      Ajit Pai.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:36

      Yeah.

   7. EHEddie Huang2:36

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:36

      He seems like an odd-

   9. EHEddie Huang2:38

      Oof.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:38

       ... odd fellow.

   11. EHEddie Huang2:39

       Yeah.

   12. JRJessica Rosenworcel2:40

       Yeah, well, uh-

   13. EHEddie Huang2:41

       (laughs)

   14. JRJessica Rosenworcel2:41

       ... he's a, he's a smart guy. He's a seasoned lawyer. I think it's fair to say he and I see the world a little differently.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:47

       Yeah. So he doesn't s- he sees this through the eyes of big business, right? He thinks that this is, uh, the free market, let the market decide.

   16. JRJessica Rosenworcel2:55

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:55

       And, um, and that's what the argument... I mean, I've even... Uh, Mark Cuban was, uh, arguing against it, so I was like, "Wow, this is stunning."

4. 3:03 – 7:37

   Deregulation déjà vu: radio consolidation as a warning for the internet

   1. EHEddie Huang3:03

      Yeah, and you know, uh, for me, the net neutrality thing is huge 'cause when I was law school, I read this one book called Fighting for Air, and it documented like the Telecommunications Act of '97. It's like boring stuff, right? Don't go read the Telecommunications Act of '97. But like radio mattered to me. Remember like growing up with the radio, like I remember they would actually break records on the radio back in the day.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:25

      Yeah.

   3. EHEddie Huang3:25

      Like Funk Flex still does it on Hot 97. He'll break records. He broke my boy Old Droog's record the other day. But like recently, the- it's like Clear Channel, iHeart Radio, they own all the radio stations and it really sterilized content, and they play the same songs every hour in every city almost around the world. And I, when I read that book and I went to law school, I realized, I was like, "Yo, it was because of the deregulation of radio that allowed for all these local independent radio stations in every city that were repping local culture and state culture that kind of eroded that means of communication." And I was like, "This happens to every single industry we have, whether it's radio, television, but now it's coming for the internet, and by deregulating it, you're gonna gut it again." And, you know, like when- when technology started popping and podcasts came around, I mean, that's what enabled JRE, and that's why my first place to go is like, "I'ma come see Joe," because you were one of the innovators with this new technology.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:32

      Well, thanks. But I, I think, um, what people are super concerned about is things getting blocked, right?

   5. EHEddie Huang4:40

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:40

      That's, that's like one of the first ones.

   7. JRJessica Rosenworcel4:42

      Yes.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:42

      Is, is that something that we legitimately have to worry about?

   9. JRJessica Rosenworcel4:46

      It's a good question. Here's what I know. Right now, your broadband provider has the technical ability to block content and websites. It's got the business incentive to block or slow access to some websites if they don't have a special commercial relationship with them.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:04

       So-

   11. JRJessica Rosenworcel5:04

       And now the FCC just gave them the legal green light. Just go ahead. And so I feel over time, this is something we need to be concerned about. And so this open platform that was full of indeven- independent voices, now you've got this new gatekeeper, your broadband provider. They've got a lot more power than what they used to.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       How close was the vote?

   13. JRJessica Rosenworcel5:27

       It was three-two.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:29

       Hmm. And what's the argument for this?

   15. JRJessica Rosenworcel5:32

       Well, that's, that's fair. Um, I think there's an argument that you want government out of the way, deregulation is gonna lead to more competition and we'll have, um, a flourishing of new ideas and content if we just move government out of the way. And even if you're sympathetic to that argument, here's where I think it breaks down. According to the FCC's own data-

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:56

       Hmm.

   17. JRJessica Rosenworcel5:56

       ... half of the households in this country don't have a choice of broadband provider. I, I'm familiar with this. I'm one of them. I only have (laughs) one provider that serves my house. So the thing is, if your broadband provider started blocking your content or throttling your access to some video, in a competitive market, you'd pick up, you'd take your business somewhere else. But about half of our households don't even have that opportunity.So, to me, the idea that the competitive market will prevent this behavior just doesn't fly.

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:26

       Yeah, that doesn't seem to make sense and that, that's an issue in my neighborhood as well, and a lot of other people I know as well. I mean, I think they make deals where only one company, whether it's Verizon-

   19. JRJessica Rosenworcel6:36

       Yep.

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:36

       ... or whatever has a, an area.

   21. EHEddie Huang6:37

       Yeah. They monopolize the areas-

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:39

       Yeah.

   23. EHEddie Huang6:39

       ... they limit the opportunities and choices, and when they say deregulation, it just... Anytime they deregulate things and say, "Hey, we're gonna leave it to the market and have competition," I think it's impossible to have that when you have a country with such an inequality- i- income inequality gap. Right? That's the problem, is that, "All right. Let's all go compete." "Joe, you're not gonna start a Verizon. I'm not gonna start a Verizon."

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:00

       Right.

   25. EHEddie Huang7:00

       You know what I mean? Like, we can't compete with these dudes, and even Comcast can't even compete with Verizon. Like, you know, these dudes are all getting smashed, so there is not actual competition. I think deregulation works when you have multiple players and options and that the market actually can come into play. But with the economy so top-heavy right now, I- I don't think there is a possibility of competition.

   26. JRJessica Rosenworcel7:23

       Yeah. I mean, listen, competition is the best regulator we know, right? We want there to be these markets where consumers have lots and lots of choices. But if competition isn't existing, you need a little oversight to make sure that every consumer gets a fair shot.

5. 7:37 – 10:34

   Free speech and cultural control: ISP power over what you can see and build

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:37

      Well, it seems like, uh, that's where the real argument lies, that if there are monopolies, and there seem to be in certain areas with... in regards to what kind of internet access you can get, that if you don't have regulation then, then what is gonna protect the consumer? What is gonna protect free speech? What's gonna protect... I- say if you are on Verizon and your system is on Verizon, what if you decide to make a podcast that criticizes Verizon? And everybody says, you know, "Hey, Eddie Huang's got a podcast criticizing us. I wanna shut that down." And they could just- (snaps fingers)

   2. EHEddie Huang8:07

      It would've been shut down a long time ago. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:10

      Yeah.

   4. EHEddie Huang8:10

      Yeah.

   5. JRJessica Rosenworcel8:11

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:11

      I'm not... We're not saying that they would do that, but they could.

   7. EHEddie Huang8:13

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:14

      And-

   9. EHEddie Huang8:14

      And that's what's scary.

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:15

       That's, that's not good.

   11. JRJessica Rosenworcel8:16

       And, and you know, so much of our speech these days, it doesn't take place in public places. It takes place on these private platforms.

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:23

       Right.

   13. JRJessica Rosenworcel8:24

       So they have a lot of power, and we have to think about that as a, as a country and a democracy. How much openness do we want? And then, how do we create a framework in Washington that supports that openness? And that's really, to me, what net neutrality was about.

   14. EHEddie Huang8:38

       The other question I have is, right... Let's say, um, th- you know, Var- let's say a service provider buys Hulu, right? Or th- or they buy or they create their own streaming platform called, like, Zulu, right? So they start Zulu. They could start to charge Netflix more money for using their service. They could charge Hulu more money. They could charge, you know, Beats more money, whatever, so that they have an advantage for their own streaming services, and then tho- that way, they can culturally control content.

   15. JRJessica Rosenworcel9:14

       And you know, you're so right. And what happens is you, as a consumer, you just get online, and you might not even notice, right? You might not even notice they're taking you to the video content that they have a special pay-for relationship with. I think, though, the biggest harm is to entrepreneurship.

   16. EHEddie Huang9:31

       Yeah.

   17. JRJessica Rosenworcel9:31

       'Cause right now, look, you have a good idea, you got a business, a service, you can go online, and you can almost instantly have global reach. That's amazing. But now you're gonna have to figure out is your broadband provider instead gonna shuffle off all your traffic to someone else who's paying them on the side? Are you gonna have a fair shot to show your wares and your ideas to the world? It's harder.

   18. EHEddie Huang9:55

       'Cause I start thinking like a (laughs) a bad one percenter dude, and I'm like, "All right, if there's no net neutrality and I'm the only person that can service Calabasas, California, Woodland Hills, California, well, I'm gonna charge all the other streaming providers more money to use this, and I'm gonna create a competitor in every single one of these sectors. So you can have an advantage if you have your show with me, and if you're on the other one, I'm gonna disadvantage you. I'm gonna tax you, basically."

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:24

       (sighs) So right now, these are concerns. And, um, there's nothing that's actually happening yet. The- i- this-

   20. JRJessica Rosenworcel10:32

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:32

       This ruling was just passed.

   22. JRJessica Rosenworcel10:33

       That's right.

6. 10:34 – 13:43

   How net neutrality could be reversed: Congress, courts, and state efforts

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:34

      Um, are there any plans in place for things that we should be concerned with? And is there anything that we can do about this current ruling?

   2. JRJessica Rosenworcel10:44

      Yes. There's loads, because I'm not giving up in the fight (laughs) for net neutrality, and I don't want you to either. We got a few different pathways ahead. First, in Congress right now, they are trying to get rid of what just happened at the FCC. They're trying to use this law called the Congressional Review Act that in effect just undid everything that the FCC just did. So it's a way to wipe out what just happened. And while the odds are long, there's more than 40 United States senators who have sponsored that law. And in the House side, there's more than 80 members of the House of Representatives. So there's momentum growing in Congress to take a look at this issue and maybe fix what the FCC did. And if you're sitting out there and thinking they're not listening to you, what you should do is something totally old-fashioned. You should pick up the phone, call your members of Congress and your representatives, and let them know you care about this issue, 'cause that still today is one of the most powerful ways of conveying your opinion to those who represent you.

   3. EHEddie Huang11:47

      When is the vote happening on that?

   4. JRJessica Rosenworcel11:49

      It is not yet scheduled. I think it's gonna happen first in the United States Senate-

   5. EHEddie Huang11:53

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJessica Rosenworcel11:54

      ... and later in the House. I also think we are gonna have litigation. We've already got a few states' attorneys general who wanna sue to overturn this. We've got some big companies, some public interest groups, so I think it's fair to say we're going to court. And then, we're also seeing activity in state houses and that we've seen net neutrality legislation introduced in Nebraska, Nevada, Washington State, Massachusetts, California.Lots of places. And I'm not sure how that all comes together legally, but what you see is this momentum growing, that people are not happy with what Washington just did.

   7. EHEddie Huang12:32

      The thing that I'm worried about with state's laws, right ... So just to lay it out for the listeners, right? The people will, will ... The government will pass the federal law, but then states have their own rights to regulate certain things. Let's say we use marijuana laws as an example, because recently a lot of states passed legal marijuana laws, right? But then Trump gave people the power to enforce federal laws about marijuana more stringently. Right? He was telling the federal government, "Hey, enforce our federal marijuana laws." Um-

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:04

      Well, it's really Jeff Sessions, right?

   9. EHEddie Huang13:05

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan13:05

       Jeff S- ... He's the one who's really behind that.

   11. EHEddie Huang13:07

       Yeah, his goon. Yeah, his goon is doing that. But ... So how would federalism work if states started to pass their own net neutrality laws, versus the, the f- the FCC commission ruling?

   12. JRJessica Rosenworcel13:19

       Yeah, those are hard questions. I mean, they go right to the Constitution. What's interstate, what's within the state's authority? But I'm just standing back and seeing really just a lot of energy on this issue. There's nothing else that I worked on in Washington where this immediately, state houses decided to put pen to paper and introduce legislation. And I think that that momentum is what's really exciting here.

7. 13:43 – 15:55

   The Hawaii missile alert error and the problem of slow “official” information systems

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:43

      Well, I think everyone understands the insane power of the internet, and what, what a cultural shift that we've experienced over the last 20 years. I mean, it's unprecedented in human history. There's never been anything like it in terms of access to information, in terms of the rate of change, the way people look at things, the way the issues get discussed. The cycle of news, which is like, what? 10 hours now? Stories come in and out. I mean, Hawaii just had a fake missile attack-

   2. EHEddie Huang14:11

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:11

      ... and everybody already forgot. It's already on to the next. Like, what's the next thing?

   4. JRJessica Rosenworcel14:15

      I didn't-

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:15

      Keep me posted. Check my phone.

   6. JRJessica Rosenworcel14:16

      ... forget, 'cause I think we have to fix that.

   7. EHEddie Huang14:18

      Yes. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan14:18

      Yeah, we should, certainly should, but-

   9. EHEddie Huang14:19

      But what happened in Hawaii?

   10. JRJoe Rogan14:21

       Someone went crazy.

   11. EHEddie Huang14:22

       (laughs)

   12. JRJessica Rosenworcel14:22

       Um, we're still learning. It looks like it was a state level issue, but you can't have things like that happen. We gotta figure out a way in this digital world that we get accurate information to people faster. And we, we've gotta come up with better systems than the one we just saw.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:37

       You mean somebody pressed a button and sent out a text that said that there's an incoming ballistic missile, a, a possibility, a threat of an incoming ballistic missile, and this is not a drill. And then I have friends in Hawaii, and everyone went crazy. People were crying in the streets, no one knew what to do. And of course, this is a state that was attacked, you know, less than 100 years ago during World War II.

   14. EHEddie Huang14:58

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:58

       So this is their ... It's not an unusual thing for them.

   16. EHEddie Huang15:01

       Yeah.

   17. JRJessica Rosenworcel15:01

       Yeah. I had the privilege of working for Senator Inouye from Hawaii years ago, and I think Hawaiians are, you know, they're graceful, they're resilient, but they live with the knowledge that they are susceptible to some attack.

   18. EHEddie Huang15:13

       Yeah.

   19. JRJessica Rosenworcel15:13

       So this gave them 40 minutes, the worst 40 minutes of their life. And the amazing thing to me is it took like 10 minutes or so for this to be corrected on Twitter.

   20. EHEddie Huang15:23

       (laughs)

   21. JRJessica Rosenworcel15:23

       It took, took another half hour for our official systems to update and say, "In fact, this was a mistake."

   22. EHEddie Huang15:30

       Yeah, once we found out-

   23. JRJessica Rosenworcel15:31

       "We gotta figure that out."

   24. EHEddie Huang15:32

       It was-

   25. JRJessica Rosenworcel15:32

       "You can't let that happen."

   26. EHEddie Huang15:34

       Yeah, but then once I figured out it was a mistake, I was like, "Whoa, maybe I should ask Jessica if we could send like a-"

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:40

       (laughs)

   28. EHEddie Huang15:40

       "... national message on my birthday, 12:00 AM March 1st, and be like, 'You up?'"

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:44

       (laughs)

   30. JRJessica Rosenworcel15:45

       Uh-huh.
8. 15:55 – 19:57

   The internet as radical human history: communities, translation, and opportunity

   1. EHEddie Huang15:55

      Yeah. No, but what Jo was saying about the internet and how it opened things up, like personally for me, like today's Martin Luther King Jr. Day, right? And, uh, I remember reading Letter from Birmingham Jail as a kid, Jonathan Swift, Modest Proposal as a kid, and Tupac, uh, Me Against the World. Those were like the three works that made me want to write. And I started writing since I was 15 years old, never gave up, but no one would buy my writing, right? The only place that would buy my writing was RotoWire and I would write fantasy sports updates for them. I covered the Magic and I covered the Knicks. But all the way until I was like 28 years old, no one wanted to buy my writing. It was Blogspot that had allowed me to write in my own voice and find my own audience, and then people started to see, "Whoa, there are like weird children on the internet that like Eddie's writing." Like, he's creating a lane. And I talked to my publisher at Random House and they're like, "Yeah, you created a lane selling books to people who don't buy books, non-traditional readers." And so without the internet, without Blogspot, without that ability to just project my voice and hope someone connects, like I never would've happened.

   2. JRJessica Rosenworcel17:02

      I know, we're living through it in real time, but it is totally radical as a matter of human history that you can reach out, reach around the world and build community with total disregard for geography, and find people who like fantasy sports or something like that, and, and build community around it. That's an extraordinary thing, and it has no precedent in human culture.

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:27

      And with translation software, now language is no longer even a barrier.

   4. JRJessica Rosenworcel17:31

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:31

      I mean, it's changing and shifting as, as we speak. New technologies are being developed. I mean, Samsung has a phone now that, uh, that Note8, where you can just highlight something, it'll instantly translate it. I mean, they have earbuds where you could put that on the Pixel where if you talk to me in Spanish, I'll hear it in English. And this is crazy stuff.

   6. EHEddie Huang17:51

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:51

      And this is all changing.

   8. JRJessica Rosenworcel17:52

      Think about what that does for commerce or diplomacy-

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:55

      Yeah.

   10. JRJessica Rosenworcel17:55

       ... or your ability to talk to me across the table without having a translator-

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Yeah.

   12. JRJessica Rosenworcel18:00

       ... in some clunky way try to describe what I just said.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:03

       Yeah.

   14. JRJessica Rosenworcel18:03

       These things are amazing, and you want all of our collective genius to drive them and not have big ca- gatekeepers like our broadband providers in the way.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:12

       Yeah, it seems to be a, a real issue, and I think that we should look at the internet as something different than almost all other services, because i- it is our ability ... It's, it's ... It directly affects our ability to evolve as a culture.

   16. JRJessica Rosenworcel18:27

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:27

       And I think that that's something that we should all be very concerned about and very concerned about the future of our civilization.... our ability to exchange information. It's, it's so critical and it's, it's so unprecedented. And this is a very powerful thing. And, you know, people would love to have it go back the old way and have you get your news on ABC and NBC and CBS and that's it. People would love that.

   18. EHEddie Huang18:45

       Because they control you.

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:46

       Sure. I mean, it would be way easier to keep the world, you know, informed in the way that they would like.

   20. EHEddie Huang18:52

       Yeah.

   21. JRJessica Rosenworcel18:52

       It, it would be easier for regulators in Washington too. I mean there's this-

   22. EHEddie Huang18:56

       Sure.

   23. JRJessica Rosenworcel18:56

       ... disorderly chaos on the internet, but it, it, um, it create- it ... Listen, it has challenges, but it, it's unearthed communities and created economic possibility for people like nothing in our history.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:10

       Yeah. I think it just- it's changing who humans are. You know, I think there's more of an understanding of each other. There's more, there's more compassion. I mean, there's also a lot of hate and there's a lot of anger and there's a lot of ... But I think with the bad, there's more good.

   25. EHEddie Huang19:27

       Yeah. Uh, undoubtedly there's much more good and to me, it feels like a freedom of speech issue.

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:33

       Yeah.

   27. EHEddie Huang19:33

       You know, like, it's- if, if this f- internet kind of super highway is controlled and there's toll booths everywhere and it gets privatized, like ... I mean, I lived in Florida, we didn't have money for roads. I saw when things got privatized, it's- you just pay more, you don't have the same service. It's, it's one of those things, like it has to be regulated, it has to be protected and it has to be guaranteed as a thing for all human beings, not even just Americans.

9. 19:57 – 23:22

   Public support vs. unelected power: the 83% problem and civic participation

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:57

      Well, it's just- it's stunning to me how many people are against the idea of having an open internet. It's- I just ...

   2. JRJessica Rosenworcel20:05

      Well, you know most of the polling, I think polls are always- you gotta be careful, right? Because they can ask a question one way and get an answer, but the best one done was right before our vote by the University of Maryland, found 83% of the public supported net neutrality, opposed what we were doing.

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:21

      But who are those 17% dummies? That's what I wanna know.

   4. JRJessica Rosenworcel20:24

      I- I think anything you can get the American public to agree to, an 83% is a pretty high mark.

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:29

      I think it's wonderful, but I'm stunned there's 17%. (laughs)

   6. EHEddie Huang20:31

      Yeah, I wanna be the 17%.

   7. JRJessica Rosenworcel20:33

      Yeah.

   8. EHEddie Huang20:33

      Seriously.

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:34

      But isn't there a bunch of people- I feel like there's some- and I, I wrote about this on Twitter recently, that without judgment, I said that net neutrality seems to me to be one of those ideological issues where, um, if you are on the right, you support it. Or if you're on the left, rather, you support it. Where you're on the right, you would like it to go away. It's almost like-

   10. JRJessica Rosenworcel20:56

       Well, I'm gonna totally disagree with that-

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:58

       Okay, please do. (laughs)

   12. JRJessica Rosenworcel20:58

       ... 'cause I think if you are a Democrat or a Republican, you benefit from net neutrality and internet openness. If you're conservative or liberal, if you're a big business or a small business, you benefit from internet openness. And the history of net neutrality is something that doesn't get discussed enough, which is that it began ... The first time the FCC put net neutrality policy on paper, it was 2005. And I'm old enough to remember that that was when President George W. Bush was in the White House. In other words, this country's first net neutrality policies were put on paper when a Republican was running the FCC. It is only in recent days we have characterized this as a left/right issue, and I think that's a- fundamentally a mistake.

   13. EHEddie Huang21:44

       How did it happen? Like when, when Ajit Pai proposed this legislation and passed it, um, i- it baffled me. I thought net neutrality was a thing we had all agreed on, it was like, "We're never touching this." How did this happen?

   14. JRJessica Rosenworcel21:59

       Well, you know, through s- a whole bunch of boring Washington procedures whereby they circulate out a proposed rule-making and tell you what data goes on it.

   15. EHEddie Huang22:05

       Oh, no, no, no. But I mean like how did- how did he get the power and leverage to pass this?

   16. JRJessica Rosenworcel22:10

       I think that he was supported by people in Washington, including some broadband providers, and was led to believe that with deregulation, we would all be better off.

   17. EHEddie Huang22:23

       And then w- uh, what f- what I find interesting is Google, Amazon, Facebook, these, these big power players used to be very vocal, net neutrality, keep the internet free, things like that. They're not as loud as they used to be. They seem to just be quiet on it. What do you think is going on there?

   18. JRJessica Rosenworcel22:42

       Well, first I wanna point out that those big companies, through their association, are gonna be intervening in the lawsuits in favor of net neutrality.

   19. EHEddie Huang22:49

       Yeah.

   20. JRJessica Rosenworcel22:50

       So that's true.

   21. EHEddie Huang22:50

       Yeah.

   22. JRJessica Rosenworcel22:51

       But to me, net neutrality's never really been about big companies. It's about who's gonna be the next digital platform, who's gonna be the next startup and the next player. Um, the big companies can always find ways to build relationships and manage this kind of lack of neutrality online with their leverage that come from size. It's, it's a question of who's gonna start something up that you and I may not see because they didn't pay off their broadband provider? It's the entrepreneurship that has me most concerned.

   23. EHEddie Huang23:21

       Like s- new small business?

   24. JRJessica Rosenworcel23:22

       Yeah.

10. 23:22 – 45:40

    From net neutrality to the bigger picture: tribalism, UBI, and the future of work

    1. JRJoe Rogan23:22

       Yeah. So when I was saying that there's a- seems like an ideological rift, there's certain people that are not very well versed in this issue that automatically side one way or another. That's a- this is a thing that we do in this country culturally, a right/left thing. You see it a lot with global warming where you have a conversation with people, they say that global warming's- it's a natural process, natural cycle, the Earth goes through it. And then you actually talk to them about how much research they've really done on it, it's almost none.

    2. EHEddie Huang23:49

       Yeah. (laughs)

    3. JRJoe Rogan23:49

       It- they, they fall into these ideological groups and those pull yourself by- up by your bootstraps, right wing. You know, there, there's this- this sort of conservative way of thinking that- that let the market decide, and this is that, that conversation. I don't think that's an honest conversation if you're dealing with monopolies in, in regards to internet access, which I think a lot of- and I am and you are, a lot of people are. It's a giant part of living in America.

    4. JRJessica Rosenworcel24:14

       Yeah.

    5. EHEddie Huang24:15

       You have-

    6. JRJessica Rosenworcel24:15

       And that tribalism that you're describing right now-

    7. JRJoe Rogan24:17

       Yes.

    8. JRJessica Rosenworcel24:17

       ... it's really deteriorating the quality of our dialogue in Washington.

    9. JRJoe Rogan24:21

       Yes.

    10. JRJessica Rosenworcel24:21

        We gotta find a way to fix it because, um, we're not gonna move ahead-... without actually having some back and forth on these things.

    11. EHEddie Huang24:30

        But this is, like, the one issue where I'm like, it actually brings people together. 83% of people supported-

    12. JRJessica Rosenworcel24:35

        (laughs)

    13. JRJoe Rogan24:35

        80%.

    14. EHEddie Huang24:35

        ... yeah, i- it's undeniable. But i- that's what scary about this country now is that even when so many of us agree about something, when one very powerful group, a lobby, the broadband companies, get behind somebody with some control, like, they can push the needle.

    15. JRJessica Rosenworcel24:51

        You know, it's funny, if y- in my email inbox, which was an explosive thing leading up to this vote, was full of people writing and telling me their stories. But a whole bunch of them were like, "You know, I am r- a registered Republican, but I want you to know..." Or, "I supported the President, but I believe net neutrality is really important." It was striking to me, like, once you get outta the talking head types-

    16. EHEddie Huang25:18

        Yeah.

    17. JRJessica Rosenworcel25:18

        ... what you found is that there was really broad-based support for net neutrality.

    18. JRJoe Rogan25:24

        Well, what's s- stunning about this administration is how Trump's administration is just going ham for business. They are going ham for offshore drilling. They're going ham for diminishing state parks and starting to tap into resources, whether it's mining or fracking or-

    19. EHEddie Huang25:42

        It's like he knows the world's gonna end in 25 years or something. He's like, "Just go."

    20. JRJoe Rogan25:46

        Well-

    21. EHEddie Huang25:46

        "Just take it all."

    22. JRJoe Rogan25:46

        ... here's the thing. He doesn't have 25 years.

    23. EHEddie Huang25:49

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan25:49

        And so the world is gonna end in 25 years. I mean, if you're a 72-year-old guy-

    25. EHEddie Huang25:54

        (laughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan25:54

        ... how much time do you have left? If you have 25 years, those last 25 years, you're, you know, you're barely there.

    27. EHEddie Huang26:01

        Yeah. It- it's insane. There's n- there's nothing gonna be left after this administration.

    28. JRJoe Rogan26:05

        Well, it's real weird.

    29. EHEddie Huang26:07

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan26:07

        It's r- it's r- 'cause it lets you know, like, people used to think, "Well, the president doesn't have much power." L- look at what's happening.
11. 45:40 – 1:09:38

    Personal resilience and self-improvement: failure stories, sports, and mental toughness

    1. JRJessica Rosenworcel45:40

       You know, I think it's really important though for successful people like yourself to tell their failure stories. We don't do that enough.

    2. JRJoe Rogan45:47

       I think you're right.

    3. EHEddie Huang45:47

       Well, I mean, I lost a restaurant 'cause I sold all-you-can-drink Four Loko. Like, that was like... I went out in flames.

    4. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       Ah!

    5. EHEddie Huang45:53

       (laughs)

    6. JRJessica Rosenworcel45:53

       (laughs)

    7. EHEddie Huang45:53

       All-you-can-drink Four Loko-

    8. JRJoe Rogan45:54

       It sounds like a liability when that happens.

    9. EHEddie Huang45:56

       Yeah.

    10. JRJessica Rosenworcel45:56

        Okay, so you're, you're good at telling failure stories, but I think that that's true generally. I feel like I wish I could ask every member of Congress to tell a failure story.

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:05

        They would never do that. Those people are trying to pretend they're something different.

    12. JRJessica Rosenworcel46:08

        No, but it's, it's so important.

    13. EHEddie Huang46:10

        Yeah, what's your failure story?

    14. JRJessica Rosenworcel46:10

        Oh, I was a terrible law student.

    15. JRJoe Rogan46:12

        (laughs)

    16. EHEddie Huang46:12

        Okay. Anything more explosive, like, Four... Did you ever sell Four Loko at a lemonade stand?

    17. JRJessica Rosenworcel46:18

        (laughs) I c- I can tell you, I absolutely never did that and probably never will.

    18. EHEddie Huang46:24

        Any other failures?

    19. JRJessica Rosenworcel46:26

        Uh, yeah, I got some parenting failures that I'm gonna save my children from announcing in public, how about that?

    20. JRJoe Rogan46:30

        Good call.

    21. JRJessica Rosenworcel46:31

        (laughs)

    22. JRJoe Rogan46:31

        Good call. Yeah, uh, I feel like, um, it's important for people to relate, right? They have to be able to say, "Oh, Eddie wasn't always a successful guy. Like, he was a 19-year-old kid once too that was also struggling." That's very important. It's very... It's, it... I think it's w- one of the most important things that people can understand, that failure is an opportunity to learn, and that horrible feeling of failure is really your friend.

    23. EHEddie Huang46:59

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan46:59

        'Cause that horrible feeling motivates you to change.

    25. EHEddie Huang47:02

        I mean, I fail all the time. I played basketball yesterday. We had a double-header. I was, I was cooking on a grill, I was making lamb skewers for four hours in the morning, went straight from the kitchen to this basketball game in San Gabriel Valley playing with... It's like an Asian basketball league, so I'm actually, like, kind of tall.

    26. JRJoe Rogan47:17

        (laughs)

    27. EHEddie Huang47:17

        Like, I'm like a small forward. And there's, like, little younger dudes at 25 running around me. I did not... I played well the first game, I was washed the second game, and these kids, probably like 23, 24 years old, running past me, elbowing me. And I got so mad and I acted out. I started, like, yelling at them, and I started, like, beefing. And I got home and I, I told my fiance about it, and she's like, "Yo, why are you beefing with these kids? They're 25. Like, like, you're old. Of course they're gonna run by you. You playing a double-header and you came out of the kitchen." And it w- it was funny 'cause I was, like, not willing to let it go, but then I was like, "I gotta work on myself." Like, every single day, like, I fail at something. And I failed at, like, being, like, the elder statesman in the basketball league.

    28. JRJoe Rogan48:01

        Being composed.

    29. EHEddie Huang48:02

        Being composed. I lost my composure-

    30. JRJoe Rogan48:04

        Yeah.
12. 1:09:38 – 1:23:44

    Tech policy rabbit holes: blockchain, preserving digital history, and online voting

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:09:38

       What's your thoughts on cryptocurrencies?

    2. EHEddie Huang1:09:39

       Yeah.

    3. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:09:40

       Hmm. I'm... You know, so I have no special authority on this except that a microphone's in front of me. Um, that being said-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:09:48

       That's my whole life.

    5. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:09:48

       Yeah. All right-

    6. EHEddie Huang1:09:49

       (laughs)

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:09:50

       (laughs)

    8. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:09:51

       Um, uh, I'm less interested in cryptocurrencies than I am in blockchain-

    9. EHEddie Huang1:09:55

       Hmm.

    10. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:09:55

        ... which is the ledger that they use to re- to record exchanges in cryptocurrency. Um, it's anonymous and it can be used by anyone. It's extremely low-cost. And I think there are open questions about how you can make government and a lot of business services more efficient using blockchain that I think are really interesting, and, uh, have yet to be explored.

    11. EHEddie Huang1:10:21

        Le-

    12. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:10:21

        That's what I'm excited about.

    13. EHEddie Huang1:10:22

        Like, what's one way a business could use blockchain?

    14. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:10:26

        Um-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:10:26

        (laughs)

    16. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:10:27

        I'll just make this up. Say there's some kind of a... Y- you export fruit. Someone puts a bag of that fruit on the table and they say, "Well, we know that there are certain fields that fruit comes from. You know, there might be a disease in it." How can you figure out how that fruit got here from the field? You know, you can go back through your supply chain and call everyone, get them to tell you how long it sat over here and who held it and put it in the truck. The question is, if you can come up with a digital way where everyone as a collective just contributes to that along the way, can that be low-cost, more efficient, and more effective?

    17. EHEddie Huang1:11:00

        Yeah.

    18. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:11:00

        I think it will change supply chain economics in a really big way. And we don't fully understand the consequences for our economy yet, but I think it's coming.

    19. EHEddie Huang1:11:11

        Oh, that, that makes sense, kind of like a Wikipedia for each thing.

    20. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:11:15

        Yeah, I did it with food for you so I thought you'd understand.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:11:16

        (laughs)

    22. EHEddie Huang1:11:16

        So yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no.

    23. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:11:18

        (laughs)

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:11:18

        (laughs)

    25. EHEddie Huang1:11:18

        That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:11:20

        It does.

    27. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:11:22

        Um, I... Uh, look, uh, here's, here's high, high-level nerd, but our airwaves around us, right, our wireless airwaves that power all of our phones, we have to divide them up. You don't see it, but it's like they're zoned so that your phone works, the television works, all of these things, you know? But we also have a whole bunch of airwaves that are only used sometimes. But what if we could create, like, secondary and tertiary rights to use them so that our phones were more powerful? And what if the best way to do that was to use something like blockchain? I mean, there's, there's so many ways I think the recording ledger for cryptocurrencies could make our economy more efficient and more powerful. And so that's what I'm interested in, and that's probably because I don't own any Bitcoin.

    28. EHEddie Huang1:12:04

        I know people also in journalism have been talking about-

    29. JRJessica Rosenworcel1:12:07

        Yeah.

    30. EHEddie Huang1:12:07

        ... keeping articles on blockchain so they... Like, internet articles don't go anywhere, you know, because people can just erase a website. If a website, uh, uh, goes out of business, then all the articles on that website are gone. So-

Episode duration: 1:25:08