Joe Rogan Experience #1084 - Douglas Murray

Joe Rogan 0:02 Keep this about a fist away.

Douglas Murray 0:03 Okay.

Joe Rogan 0:05 (clears throat) And we're live. Douglas, first of all, thanks for joining me. Appreciate it.

Douglas Murray 0:09 Great pleasure to be with you.

Joe Rogan 0:10 Looking forward to talking to you.

Douglas Murray 0:12 Likewise.

Joe Rogan 0:12 You've become, uh, an example to me ... or your conversation with Sam Harris has become an example to me of how squirrelly things have gotten lately with the way people interpret conversations about ideas.

Douglas Murray 0:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 0:25 Because of this. Jamie, pull that thing up. This is, uh, a tweet that someone sent out, and he got a strike, a community guideline strike-

Douglas Murray 0:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:36 ... just for listening, just for putting you on his playlist, a conversation between Sam Harris and you, and, uh-

Douglas Murray 0:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:44 ... he, this man, um ... or I don't know if it's a man. I'm b- I'm, uh ... I just assumed. I'm, I'm a problem. I'm part of the problem, part of the patriarchy. P-T-R-K-C-C-X on Twitter. Uh, that is his screen name, his, or her, or zir screen name on Twitter. And got a community guideline strike-

Douglas Murray 1:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:06 ... for just putting this. Now I brought this up to ... uh, I was having dinner with some friends, one of them who used to work at Google, and someone who was there was a, uh, you know, highly ranked person at YouTube. I brought this up. And the exact quote was, uh, "That was because it's hate speech."

Douglas Murray 1:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:25 And I said, "You said that so flippantly." I go, "Please tell me the contents of the conversation." Do you know what they talked about?" I go, "How did you say that?" She goes, "Well, I'm sure if someone m- marked it as a community guideline ..."

Douglas Murray 1:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:39 "That ... Or, or as a c- strike, a community strike ..." What is it called? A community guideline strike? Yeah. "That they must be hate speech."

Douglas Murray 1:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:46 I'm like, "Do you, do you understand this is Douglas Murray and Sam Harris?"

Douglas Murray 1:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:49 "I, I, I bet, I bet that's not what the conversation was about."

Douglas Murray 1:54 (laughs) I, I, I bet it wasn't too.

Joe Rogan 1:55 S-

Douglas Murray 1:56 I'm try- I'm trying to think what we did talk about now. It's making me nervous. I mean, but I know that ... I know it definitely wasn't hate speech, by any sane definition of those words. Um, but th- the, you ... this is, this sorta thing is very disturbing to me-

Joe Rogan 2:09 Very disturbing.

Douglas Murray 2:10 ... because, um, you ... and you noticed it happening with other people, of course.

Joe Rogan 2:14 Yes.

Douglas Murray 2:14 And that's disturbing enough. It's more disturbing, of course, when it happens to you, but slightly surreal. Uh, uh, I mean, I know Sam Harris a bit. Um, not a hateful person, uh, uh, my most sorta yogic, calm, blissed-out, West Coast of America friend. And I'm, um, pretty amazed that anyone at Google or anyone else would think that anything that could come out of his mouth was hate streetch- uh, hate speech, unless you decided that hate speech is just anything you personally don't like or that words don't matter anymore.

Joe Rogan 2:47 Well, that's what I'm concerned about. I'm concerned that there's an agenda that people who work in these ... well, we don't even have to name the organizations. But certain organizations are extremely left-leaning, and I mean-

Douglas Murray 3:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:03 ... uh, it's probably better than being extremely right-leaning.

Douglas Murray 3:06 Sure. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:06 It really is. It's probably better than them being white supremacist-

Douglas Murray 3:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:10 ... white nationalist hate groups. It's probably far better that they're radical lefties. But it becomes a problem when you're doing things like that, because things like that limit free speech, and they limit the free discussion of ideas. I don't-

Douglas Murray 3:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:23 I didn't listen to your, your conversation. I th- I think I listened to a little bit of it, but I d- I, I didn't listen to enough of it to know whether or not you guys-

Douglas Murray 3:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:31 ... started screaming out the N-word halfway in. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 3:34 I, I'm sure I'd remember.

Joe Rogan 3:35 I'm sure (laughs) I'm sure you would.

Douglas Murray 3:36 It would come to me.

Joe Rogan 3:37 I sure I would've heard about it.

Douglas Murray 3:38 I'd be blushing more at this moment.

Joe Rogan 3:39 Um, I had ... uh, another thing that I talked about with this, uh, same person, I brought up Jordan Peterson and, you know, that there's, there's issues with every time he's on podcasts, the podcasts get flagged-

Douglas Murray 3:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:53 ... for demonetization, and, and-

Douglas Murray 3:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:55 ... the exact words were, "He's a troublemaker."

Douglas Murray 3:58 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:59 And I'm like, "What in the fuck are you talking about?"

Douglas Murray 4:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:01 Like, do ... are you listening to his conversations? He is very articulate, and he's extremely careful-

Douglas Murray 4:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:09 ... going over these ideas-

Douglas Murray 4:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:11 ... that I think we should all be discussing. So, to call this hate speech or to call someone a troublemaker, it ... to me, it's symbl- simplify- or symbolizes what we're, what we're dealing with today. This is a very strange time when it comes to communication and the people that regulate and distribute our communication.

Douglas Murray 4:28 It, it, it is, and, uh, whenever I've had a chance to speak with people in that kind of world, who ... in that sort of role, the question I always want to ask them, among other things, is, "Do you know where this is gonna lead? Um, do you know what it's gonna do if you keep breaking down definitions, and terms, and words? Do you know what happens, for instance, down the road, if, if you keep on saying that Sam Harris and Douglas Murray having a conversation about something is hate speech? Do you know what relief that's going to give other people down the road about what they're gonna be able to get away with?"

Joe Rogan 5:00 Hmm.

Douglas Murray 5:01 This is what's being created all the time at the moment, it seems to me, this, this idea that you, you police the discussion along incredibly narrow lines to- uh, that happen to surround your own comfort zone, um, a- and call everything outside it ... not just stuff I don't agree with or things that I would argue with or debate with, but hate speech. Uh, it's just, I think, very, very dangerous down the road. You can see exactly the trail that bit of gunpowder goes to.

Joe Rogan 5:29 (smacks lips) I can. Where do you think it goes?

Douglas Murray 5:31 I think it goes to a point where people become cynical about any, any claims made about anyone. And the likelihood is that if 99 times you've seen Sam Harris, Douglas Murray, Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, whoever called hate speech, then the hundredth time that somebody uses the term hate speech might be on somebody who is engaging in hate speech, and all your defenses are gonna be down. You've got nothing ... you're, you're very likely to become ... uh, very unlikely, sorry, to become skeptical-... um, and think I'm really gonna dig down. Most of us don't have time. We don't have time to, to find out every single thought and word that someone has uttered or thought. And so it seems very likely to me that down the road, very, very bad people are able to get through the gates because we kept on making erroneous claims frivolously for our own short-term gain and for our own short-term comfort and will end up basically bringing the gates down completely.

Joe Rogan 6:33 I agree with you, and I, I think there's been a lot of discussion lately as well that I agree with where when you make these ridiculous claims about conversations-

Douglas Murray 6:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:45 ... you, you empower, you actually empower radical people who oppose left-wing ideology.

Douglas Murray 6:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 6:50 They get more extreme. You empower the extremists because they know that you are incorrect. They have evidence of it, they see your ridiculous behavior. And the other really disturbing aspect of it is these are the people that are distributing speech in-

Douglas Murray 7:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:06 ... I mean, I, I mean, think about how many discussions are viewed daily on YouTube. It's stunning.

Douglas Murray 7:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, th- there, um, y- there's so much. I mean, we're at the beginning of this, aren't we? Because, I mean, there's a long way for this to run-

Joe Rogan 7:20 Yes.

Douglas Murray 7:20 ... a long way for the censorship to run, a long... You can't help thinking, among other things, that the people trying to make the rules at the moment have no idea of the fact that these debates have happened before-

Joe Rogan 7:30 Right.

Douglas Murray 7:30 ... or have not bothered to look into them and seem to think that history started with them. And, and I just wish that among other things with social media, people realize we, we, we have been through this several times before at least and, and the lessons are pretty clear. Uh, they are not that you can limit speech in order to attain political nirvana, for instance. Uh, nor are they that you can simply use, as I say, for short-term gain, accusations you know to be wrong-

Joe Rogan 8:02 Right.

Douglas Murray 8:02 ... in order to further a short-term political goal. Uh, uh, we, we know all this. We, we've been through it. Printing press, we went through it with John Stuart Mill, we went through it with Milton. I just wish these people had any idea of the fact that history started before their parents conceived them.

Joe Rogan 8:22 Well, it's such... The, the, the whole culture of, uh, tech today is such a progressive thought bubble. It's, it's an echo chamber and it's very, very-

Douglas Murray 8:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:33 I, like I said, it's better that they're really progressive and open-minded and left-wing than radical right-wing. I think it's better.

Douglas Murray 8:41 Yeah, uh, no, I agree. I mean, if, if, if by radical right-wing you mean, you know, kind of neo-Nazi-

Joe Rogan 8:45 Racists.

Douglas Murray 8:46 ... racists or something.

Joe Rogan 8:46 Yes.

Douglas Murray 8:46 Yeah, of course. Um, although these people have all, as I say, all the ability to create those people.

Joe Rogan 8:53 Right.

Douglas Murray 8:53 Um, which is-

Joe Rogan 8:55 And empower.

Douglas Murray 8:55 And empower them, which is something... You don't want actual racists and Nazis to have legitimate grievance claims, and you don't want them to be able to disguise themselves as something they're not. So I say... I, I had a friend who, um... A lot of friends involved in the Northern Ireland conflict many years ago in the UK. Not that many years ago. One writer had a beautiful phrase about it wh- where you got to a stage where everyone was killing everyone, and he said, "You also got to the stage where truth was whatever you were having yourself."

Joe Rogan 9:27 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 9:29 And, um, we're not far away from that, that place where I say what you call is hate speech, you say what I w- say is hate speech, let's call the whole thing off. We're not very far away from there actually.

Joe Rogan 9:45 Yeah, it's, uh, it's very strange that this, uh, this echo chamber is being so reinforced and that very few people are stepping out and saying, "Well, wait, let's take a look at this objectively."

Douglas Murray 9:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:57 And the people that do do that are signaled out as being racists or sexists or homophobic or transphobe or what...

Douglas Murray 10:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:05 You know, fill in the blank, whatever's convenient.

Douglas Murray 10:06 Yeah. And, but it's not surprising that more people don't want to stick their heads above that parapet-

Joe Rogan 10:11 Right.

Douglas Murray 10:11 ... because, I mean, if you had a normal job, uh, you worked in a normal office or shop or something, you, you really would don't want this coming towards you.

Joe Rogan 10:22 Right.

Douglas Murray 10:22 Um, I, I mean, this, this can tear apart and tear down people who spend a lifetime demonstrating they are not the thing-

Joe Rogan 10:31 Right.

Douglas Murray 10:31 ... that they're being accused of. So if nobody knows anything about you, you have no particular persona out there, you have no particular back record, uh, you don't want this thing coming to tear your life down.

Joe Rogan 10:42 Right, because r- recovering from that accusation is almost impossible and would take forever.

Douglas Murray 10:47 Yes. It is basically impossible, and all that you do along the way is to, to keep reminding people of the charge. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:52 That's true. Right.

Douglas Murray 10:52 And, and if you were to ever win on a technicality, like everyone would have forgotten, you know. Oh yeah, that's the, uh, that's the racist.

Joe Rogan 10:58 That's the rapist. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 11:00 That's... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:00 I mean...

Douglas Murray 11:00 That's the guy who was pro-rape, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 11:01 Yeah. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 11:02 Yeah, I remember him. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:02 It's so simple, but it's... I feel like we're in some strange adolescent stage of communication, and there's been, uh, a bunch of talk lately, uh, there's, there were some... Something that I tweeted earlier today, some new technology that they believe where AI is gonna allow people to literally see other people's thoughts.

Douglas Murray 11:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:24 And I, I am... I, I mean, I am-

Douglas Murray 11:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:28 ... forever optimistic but also terrified. And my feeling is that our transition from language... Here it is, new AI system can see what you are thinking-

Douglas Murray 11:39 Oh, yeah, yeah. So it is.

Joe Rogan 11:39 ... which is just, what the hell does that mean? I'm, I'm concerned but also optimistic. I feel like we're in this transitionary period from regular communication to written communication, to written communication online-

Douglas Murray 11:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:54 ... to speech online, video online, where there's this instant access to all this and these ideas are being debated and tossed around like beach balls in real time.

Douglas Murray 12:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:04 And ideas are being distorted. Uh, people's positions are being distorted-

Douglas Murray 12:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:09 ... for, for other people's gains, and that there is this willful...... misuse of the truth.

Douglas Murray 12:16 Yes.

Joe Rogan 12:16 And that something is going to come along that's going to combat that, but at what price?

Douglas Murray 12:23 I mean, the on- I can't see what would come along to do it, other than people rebelling against it of their own free will, as it were.

Joe Rogan 12:31 It doesn't seem like that's happening, though. It seems like there's-

Douglas Murray 12:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:34 ... there's a few people that are rec- like yourself and s-

Douglas Murray 12:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:36 ... there's many others that are recognizing the problem with this. There's people talking about the problem of it online, but for the most part, the mass of people are engaged in this and it's also-

Douglas Murray 12:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:47 ... it's idea sport.

Douglas Murray 12:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 12:48 There's idea sport going on where their side, they want their side to score.

Douglas Murray 12:52 Sure. Sure, well- well, that's almost all politics-

Joe Rogan 12:56 Yes.

Douglas Murray 12:56 ... in your country at any rate.

Joe Rogan 12:57 Yeah, for sure.

Douglas Murray 12:58 It is about that at the moment is, um, how can we make sure that- that the other side trips up on this side? I've- I've thought this, I've written this all- all through the Me Too, uh, era that, uh, in- in your country and in mine, people basically are willing to go for somebody who is a political opponent who does something very minimal, and they're willing to defend somebody on their own side who does something bigger.

Joe Rogan 13:20 Yes.

Douglas Murray 13:21 And- and you can see it all the time. It just, there are different standards that apply to your own side than apply to the other, and people don't seem to be hiding it very much anymore.

Joe Rogan 13:30 Not at all.

Douglas Murray 13:31 Um-

Joe Rogan 13:31 They really don't have the ability to hide it.

Douglas Murray 13:33 No. We had a case recently in the UK where, um, somebody who was a great, uh, hero to the left, for all sorts of complicated reasons, um, was- is accused of some fairly um- fairly serious groping accusations, among others. And exactly the left-wing MPs who had been claiming that somebody who had sent out a tweet about a woman's breasts in 2009 should never hold any role in public, said that this person, who just happened to be a friend and an icon of theirs, was a changed man and we have to recognize it's 18 months ago now.

Joe Rogan 14:06 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 14:06 And you know, it's ...

Joe Rogan 14:07 My favorite video on this was, uh, there was a guy who is, uh, some relig- religious Christian man on television and he was talking about Trump. And he was talking about who Trump was before he became president. He goes, "But I don't know about you, but I found Jesus and I did not have a past."

Douglas Murray 14:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:27 Put praise Jesus. And he's- he's saying this at everyone's chair-

Douglas Murray 14:30 Wow.

Joe Rogan 14:30 He, whoever he was before he found Jesus, like-

Douglas Murray 14:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 14:34 ... as if Trump got into office-

Douglas Murray 14:36 Yes.

Joe Rogan 14:36 ... and was like, "You know what? I'm a new man."

Douglas Murray 14:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:39 "I found Jesus."

Douglas Murray 14:39 I got the Jesus pass.

Joe Rogan 14:41 All that stuff that I did the last 70 years ...

Douglas Murray 14:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:44 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 14:44 Well, some people- some people do think that it was- it was a- a journalist, Malcolm Muggeridge, a very distinguished figure in the media, um, some years ago. But who, it was often noted that his, he converted to Catholicism and he, uh, uh, a mutual friend once said that it was noticeable that Malcolm Muggeridge always attacked a vice immediately after he had become incapable of it himself.

Joe Rogan 15:05 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 15:08 (laughs) When it was clear that Muggeridge didn't have as much sex as he'd did fairly often in his youth, sex was a big problem.

Joe Rogan 15:16 It's a giant problem.

Douglas Murray 15:17 And, uh (...)

Joe Rogan 15:17 Needs to let everybody know.

Douglas Murray 15:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:19 Yeah. Virtue signaling to the highest degree. Let everybody know, this is awful.

Douglas Murray 15:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:25 All that pleasure and flesh, stop it.

Douglas Murray 15:27 I won't have it.

Joe Rogan 15:29 (laughs) I had a lot of it, but I won't have it anymore. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 15:31 Not in my bedroom. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:34 It's just, I- I don't know, man. I'm just, I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that we're gonna work through this, but I'm- I'm also disturbed because no one's at the wheel.

Douglas Murray 15:44 No.

Joe Rogan 15:44 There's no- there's no particular logical human being that's at- at the wheel that has a real rational sort of a solution for all of these issues.

Douglas Murray 15:54 Well-

Joe Rogan 15:54 It's just chaos and infighting.

Douglas Murray 15:56 Yeah, but the problem is, again, it comes back to thinking about the truth being whatever you're having yourself. We don't have anyone that we might mutually agree on as some kind of umpire.

Joe Rogan 16:04 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 16:05 I mean that- that's becoming, that's becoming part of the problem. Who- who- who- I mean, I'd be very suspicious of any umpire put forward, but- but where would you roughly look for one? Um, uh, I- I mean, I like to think that truth still matters, but you know, when you discover that a lot of people don't seem to particularly care for it or are willing to sacrifice it, as I say, for some other purpose, including winning a goal, um, it's hard to see how you could, uh, adjudicate in this era. But just one other thought was in it, which is a lot of this has to do with whether or not the online world, uh, can forgive. This seems to me to be a really central thing. One of the- one of the, uh, things that came up, the case I- I said recently about this 2009 case of somebody in Britain who tweeted about a woman's breasts, among other things, was he mistook Twitter for a conversation with friends.

Joe Rogan 17:01 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 17:01 And ...

Joe Rogan 17:03 How did he do that?

Douglas Murray 17:04 You know, I mean ...

Joe Rogan 17:05 He's in public office?

Douglas Murray 17:06 No, no, he's a journalist.

Joe Rogan 17:08 Oh, okay.

Douglas Murray 17:08 Um, and, uh, but was- was going to get a public office. Anyhow, but the point is- is that, you know, we don't really know what the rules of that are. I mean, like, what if you were a bit of a dick 10 years ago like that?

Joe Rogan 17:21 Right.

Douglas Murray 17:22 On a medium that people were still finding their way on, and now you are genuinely, you've moved on, you have kids, you know, you-

Joe Rogan 17:29 Right.

Douglas Murray 17:30 And- and yet the- the breast tweet is always with you. I mean ...

Joe Rogan 17:35 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 17:36 It- it- it's a sort of dystopian nightmare that you'd always be stuck with your worst joke.

Joe Rogan 17:41 Right.

Douglas Murray 17:42 You- you'd be stuck with your lowest, sort of crassest moment. And-

Joe Rogan 17:46 This came up recently with Bill Maher.

Douglas Murray 17:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:49 Bill Maher, there was something that he wrote, I think in 1989 ...

Douglas Murray 17:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:54 ... which is insane.I mean, 29 years ago-

Douglas Murray 17:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:58 ... he wrote something, and, uh, people used it-

Douglas Murray 18:02 All right.

Joe Rogan 18:02 ... recently against him. And 29, I don't know how old Bill is. I, I don't think Bill is even 60. So we're talking about something that he wrote when he was in his 20s-

Douglas Murray 18:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:10 ... when he was a struggling standup comedian.

Douglas Murray 18:13 The, um, the, the, the, the, the, the internet's very good for this, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 18:16 Oh, it's amazing for it.

Douglas Murray 18:16 Also because you can, you can, you can dig up everyone. Everyone's made a... Everyone's, everyone's screwed up.

Joe Rogan 18:21 Sure.

Douglas Murray 18:21 Apart from you. You know, apart from yourself.

Joe Rogan 18:24 Of course.

Douglas Murray 18:24 You know, it's... Uh, um, w- we had somebody, yeah, recently in, in, uh, in Britain who, who everyone wanted to go for suddenly, and, and they found an article he had written about... Saying he didn't agree with Holocaust denial laws, okay? He said, he said-

Joe Rogan 18:37 Oh my God.

Douglas Murray 18:37 He said he just thought it was a bad idea for free speech. You know? Um, uh, uh, when the, when the internet was for seconds trying to find out other stuff about him, they found an article which said, "I'm a Holocaust denier so, you know, prosecute me," sort of thing. Which he isn't a Holocaust denier. It's just nobody bothered to read beneath the headline. And so suddenly, in the middle of the thing where everyone was tearing apart his life, they also said, "And he's a Holocaust denier."

Joe Rogan 19:02 (groans)

Douglas Murray 19:02 And that was that. That was that. And then, like, something he wrote 15 years ago, and it wasn't even something he wrote. It's the headline of something. Uh, uh, and, yeah, and everyone... And again, no- nobody cares. Get onto the next victim. Uh, everyone's a Nazi. You know? I- I- it's-

Joe Rogan 19:18 (laughs) It's almost like people... I mean, it's obviously the case of living in glass houses and throwing tons of rocks.

Douglas Murray 19:24 Sure.

Joe Rogan 19:24 But it's almost like everyone is just trying to throw as many rocks as they can before rocks start coming their way because they know it's inevitable.

Douglas Murray 19:32 The... Well, I, I thought fa- I, I thought until fairly re- the object of life in the modern era was to prove everyone else was a racist Nazi misogynistic transphobe, and then (laughs) you win. You somehow... Right? You get a coronation or something.

Joe Rogan 19:47 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 19:47 Everyone would say, "Ah, you're the person who's good."

Joe Rogan 19:50 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 19:50 Uh, but now, yes, it seems everyone is aware that it's, it's, it's a Mexican gunfight.

Joe Rogan 19:56 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 19:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:57 Yeah. I have a, a friend of mine who had been on this podcast before, back when he was a radical lefty. His name's Jamie Kilstein, and he's a standup comedian, and he was a real radical-

Douglas Murray 20:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:07 ... social justice warrior, male feminist lefty, and they turned on him.

Douglas Murray 20:12 Oh.

Joe Rogan 20:13 Radically.

Douglas Murray 20:13 What did they do?

Joe Rogan 20:14 Horribly. Well, they found out he was trying to have sex with girls.

Douglas Murray 20:17 No.

Joe Rogan 20:17 And that, that can't be-

Douglas Murray 20:18 Another one.

Joe Rogan 20:18 (laughs) And it was all... It was just having sex. That was it. He, I mean, he lit- he didn't rape anybody.

Douglas Murray 20:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:24 He didn't grope anybody. He just, you know-

Douglas Murray 20:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:27 ... he threw some passes.

Douglas Murray 20:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:28 And, and-

Douglas Murray 20:29 And, and, and, as we know, unless passes are 100% successful-

Joe Rogan 20:33 Yes.

Douglas Murray 20:34 ... they're over.

Joe Rogan 20:35 Oh, yeah. The same exact pass could be your future wife.

Douglas Murray 20:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:39 Right? And this one just fell 15 yards short (laughs) .

Douglas Murray 20:44 No room for error.

Joe Rogan 20:45 But he, he took a long time off of social media and a long time off of performing, and he st- he came on. He was really brave about it, and he talked about who he used to be. And he said he was in this frantic state where he was just constantly attacking people, just attacking people and then checking his Twitter-

Douglas Murray 21:02 Right. Oh, yes.

Joe Rogan 21:02 ... to see who responded to that attack and w- where people are on his side, you know.

Douglas Murray 21:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:07 Are people agreeing with him? Is, is he getting those social justice points that he wanted?

Douglas Murray 21:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:11 And he was really honest about the feeling that he got, the an- anxiety that I think a lot of people engage in on a daily basis.

Douglas Murray 21:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:18 A lot of... If you go to people I... There's, uh, quite a few people that I follow that seem to just always be in conflict, and I just go to watch. I'll just go to their page, almost like I'm watching a fistfight in a backyard.

Douglas Murray 21:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:28 And they're just... It seems like there's this... They're addicted to this constant seesaw of emotions and this interaction.

Douglas Murray 21:37 And it, it clearly is. It releases the necessary chemical in their brain.

Joe Rogan 21:40 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 21:40 They get, they get upset when they step away from it for a bit. I, by the way, I don't engage in any of that, that bit of it because I've seen certainly a lot of the most mediocre minds of my generation brought low by this.

Joe Rogan 21:52 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 21:52 I mean, there, there are some people who I admired until I followed them on social media.

Joe Rogan 21:57 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 21:58 And, and now I just think, you know, you're the shouty, angry person who's-

Joe Rogan 22:02 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 22:02 ... who's, who's like a, a drunk at, at closing time, desperately flailing around with your fists and looking for somebody to fight with.

Joe Rogan 22:10 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 22:11 And, and, and to what end? You know?

Joe Rogan 22:14 Yes.

Douglas Murray 22:14 I mean, the other... Another experience I had, I've had in recent years that led me to not want to engage in this is, is walking around at various events in sort of breakout things. You, you... People who, you know, really... People I've admired in the past all saying things like, uh, "Did you see that? Uh, did you see how I flamed X on Twitter?" Right? "Do you see what I, I tweeted about that person?" I, I think these used to be serious people.

Joe Rogan 22:41 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 22:41 You know, some... These used to be serious people engaged in serious things, and here they are engaged in these f- flailing fistfights. And often, often, let's face it, on things which, if you didn't do it like that, seeking out the fight, are the sort of thing that would allow for normal human interaction. I mean, how many disagreements do we have with people in our personal lives all the time if we wanted to?

Joe Rogan 23:06 Right.

Douglas Murray 23:07 Uh, you didn't vote this way, that way. I mean, some people would mind about that. But, you know, I, I know you've, you think slightly differently from me on this particular issue. You, you don't say, "Let's have that out now once and for all."

Joe Rogan 23:19 Right.

Douglas Murray 23:19 You, um, you find ways to live with people's difference and different opinions and, you know. I mean, you're not gonna get everyone exactly in line. I mean, the... We all knew that before the age of social media, and now it seems to be the only aim.

Joe Rogan 23:32 What do you think that is? Uh, I mean, do you think it's what we were discussing earlier, that it's idea sport, and that you just get caught up, and like someone volleyed your way and so you have to smash that tennis ball back their way?

Douglas Murray 23:42 It is something like that. I mean, I, I can't say I haven't felt the vicarious pleasure of some of that myself, you know?

Joe Rogan 23:47 Oh, yeah.

Douglas Murray 23:47 There's that old Chinese proverb about, um, sitting by the river watching the bodies of your enemies float by.

Joe Rogan 23:53 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 23:54 Um, I had a big sense of that the other day when somebody I deeply disliked...... came a-cropper on social media, at the same time as somebody else I deeply disliked was being held by the French police on serious charges. And I thought that was a ... I felt like the Chinese proverb then-

Joe Rogan 24:10 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 24:11 ... "That's all right." And so, I, I, can, I can see why people feel it.

Joe Rogan 24:14 Sure.

Douglas Murray 24:15 Um, and of course people who they could never normally get to, who they've got to.

Joe Rogan 24:21 Right.

Douglas Murray 24:21 I mean, I think that's, I think that's the big, uh, the big thing of, you know, "Look, I poked that," you know, "one in the eye."

Joe Rogan 24:29 Yes. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 24:29 Um, I never engage on social media for precisely that reason am- that reason, among others, that you would never ... I would never want somebody to know they could get to me.

Joe Rogan 24:39 Even if they ... Even if you just block them, there's many people who take pride-

Douglas Murray 24:43 Sure.

Joe Rogan 24:43 ... even in their heading. They say, "I am blocked on-"

Douglas Murray 24:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:46 ... "Twitter by all these people."

Douglas Murray 24:47 Yeah. And, and actually-

Joe Rogan 24:48 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 24:48 ... I do sometimes read what people s- say, send to me. Um, and I've never blocked anyone, because I sort of think you should might as well ... If you put your ideas out there, you might as well be as open as possible to receiving them back. Uh, some time ago when I got into a row with a, a, with the, uh, Turkish president about, uh, about something, uh, uh, I got all these Turkish, uh, uh, sort of accounts sending me stuff. There's one guy who just repeatedly sent me, uh, pornography of animals having sex with-

Joe Rogan 25:14 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 25:14 So (laughs) I don't know. It, it was very, it was very hard core. And, um, and so, I used to go down the feed and there were ... That guy ... And I didn't even block him, actually, because I sort of thought, "Well, somewhere in Turkey (laughs) is, is a really angry man, desperately finding horse pornography to send to me."

Joe Rogan 25:31 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 25:31 And in a way, I felt so sorry for him that that was how his life had come a ... You know, the end his life had come to at this stage, that I, I couldn't even block him. And also, he'd be like, "I'm the donkey porn guy who got blocked by donkey."

Joe Rogan 25:44 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 25:45 Now, he, he'd get a certain fame. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:48 What was his motivation for sending you this stuff?

Douglas Murray 25:50 He ... I had ... Um, it was because, uh, uh ... Well, the, the short story is, uh, a couple years ago, uh, the, the Turkish president tried to get the German chancellor to imprison a German comic for a very rude poem he'd read on air on German television that was insulting about the Ge- the Turkish president. And the German authorities actually started a case against the comedian-

Joe Rogan 26:15 Whoa.

Douglas Murray 26:15 ... for insulting the Turkish president, Erdoğan. And, uh, I, uh, decided to launch a, uh, uh, an offensive poetry competition to offend the Turkish president.

Joe Rogan 26:28 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 26:29 And there was a £1,000 cash prize, and it sort of took off and in the end, the now Foreign Secretary entered and won. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:37 What?

Douglas Murray 26:38 Yes.

Joe Rogan 26:38 Really?

Douglas Murray 26:38 That was great. Yes. It was really good because at, at, at the same time that the Germans were looking at imprisoning a, a comedian, uh, the, the now Foreign Secretary of the UK was guilty of precisely the same alleged crime, i.e. meaning it wasn't a crime, it couldn't be a crime. A, a couple of other people did. A wonderful, uh, Dutch comedian friend, Hans Jansson, uh, sort of did a similar thing at the time. He, he decided to do an interview live on Dutch television, explaining how much he hated Erdoğan because he still owed him money from the blowjob he'd given Erdoğan in a sauna.

Joe Rogan 27:10 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 27:10 And (laughs) , and ... It was live, live on Dutch television.

Joe Rogan 27:14 Ugh. Oh.

Douglas Murray 27:14 And the Dutch authorities were looking at ... Actually, were looking. They were asked if they would prosecute him. But anyhow, but the, but this was, this was ... I had a great time with this, of course, and I wrote a limerick explaining how, um, abusive I wanted people to be about Erdoğan, that it was necessary to be highly defamatory and you, you wouldn't get away with it if you just called him a wanker or something. So, I wrote the opening verse and invited the world to contribute, which they did.

Joe Rogan 27:41 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 27:41 And it became, among other things, the highest-paid poetry competition in the world,'cause if, if like me, you wrote a limerick, j- just five lines, this is £200 a line. I mean, no, no, uh, poetry, uh, uh, magazine could pay you for such, uh, uh, such, um, such work. So anyhow, on the basis of that, I became very, very unpopular in Turkey, and, uh, there were many, um, many, uh, pieces talking about how this gay, atheist, terrible Erdoğan hater in Britain was exactly what we were up against, so-

Joe Rogan 28:10 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 28:10 ... him and his poems ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:13 Oh my God.

Douglas Murray 28:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:14 Wow.

Douglas Murray 28:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:15 So, the German, uh, government was a- actually considering-

Douglas Murray 28:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 28:20 ... prosecuting this guy?

Douglas Murray 28:21 He-

Joe Rogan 28:21 How, how far did they take it?

Douglas Murray 28:23 Uh, he was taken in for questioning, I know.

Joe Rogan 28:25 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 28:25 He had to, uh, retain lawyers.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Ugh.

Douglas Murray 28:28 I, I'm fairly sure they did only drop it in the end because of the international attention that was paid to it. There was this ... You see, there was this b- law on the books that still said ... It was lese-majeste law th- th- about offending foreign rulers. And, uh, he had, he had done it for such an important reason as well, which was to say, uh, you know, "We in Germany should have the right to be rude about Erdogan," particularly Erdoğan, who, you know, prom- was promoted from mayor to prime minister, now to president, wants to be sultan. You know, I mean, he, he ... He's a very bad man. Locked up more journalists per capita, I think, than any other, uh, uh, country in the world, other than China, which I don't think we can get the stats on. Uh, w- a very, very evil, I think, man, who, who has led his country backwards in the last 20 years and is, is in the process of trying to destroy a wonderful country. And, um, i- if you can't be rude about him, if you can't pretend that he sleeps with animals, um, which is what the German comedian started with, then somewhere down the line, you won't be able to say anything about the imprisoned journalists either and so on. And, um, since also, by the way, people don't seem to spend much time worrying about the Turkish journalists that Erdoğan imprisons, um, l- the least they paid attention when I said that, uh, um, he and Angela Merkel got up to really filthy, filthy acts-

Joe Rogan 29:48 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 29:48 ... in the zoo.

Joe Rogan 29:50 (laughs) Well, obviously, the worst case of retaliation for humor is probably Charlie Hebdo, right?

Douglas Murray 29:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:58 I mean, which is a, a-

Douglas Murray 29:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:00 ... terrible and-... unfortunately, many people, um, weren't defending the murder but were talking, the murderers, I mean, I think-

Douglas Murray 30:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:11 ... how many... I think it was 11 people-

Douglas Murray 30:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:12 ... that were murdered.

Douglas Murray 30:13 Yeah and, and a policeman also.

Joe Rogan 30:14 And a police officer. Um, they, but they were saying that instead of concentrating on the murder, which was done completely out of this reinforcing their rules of their ideology-

Douglas Murray 30:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:28 ... and, and retaliation for any mocking of that ideology. Instead of that, they were talking about how racist Charlie Hebdo was.

Douglas Murray 30:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:36 There was a lot of that. In fact, my friend Jamie Kilstein was a part of that.

Douglas Murray 30:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 30:40 He was on television d- back in his super social justice warrior days talking about that.

Douglas Murray 30:45 Don't you wish, among other things, that people said, "No, I'm not talking about something if they don't know about it"?

Joe Rogan 30:51 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 30:51 You know, my guess was that until, until the murders, I mean, an infinitely small number of people knew about Charlie Hebdo outside of France.

Joe Rogan 31:01 Right.

Douglas Murray 31:02 I, I found myself in the wake of that, uh, in studios with people who I know had just Googled Charlie Hebdo the day before. I know that they'd just gone to Wikipedia and-

Joe Rogan 31:12 Right.

Douglas Murray 31:12 ... and read an English version of a claim about what that magazine was about. It goes back to that thing about, my point about the journalist and the Holocaust denial thing that just, just root around, a bunch of people have been killed, this doesn't seem to vindicate my side's ideology, therefore, let me find what I can do to defame them. And oh good, somebody at Charlie Hebdo once did this cartoon that was off color and I can't understand what the, the words are beneath it, but I'll, I'll claim it's racist. I mean, people were actually doing that.

Joe Rogan 31:41 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 31:41 They're actually, there were, there was a, um, there was one cartoon that was used against Charlie Hebdo after the massacre, uh, that was a joke against the Front National and the claims they were making about a Black woman in Sarkozy government. But because they, the joke and the, the j- if you didn't speak French, it wasn't clear apparently, but it, and if you knew nothing about recent French history, you knew nothing about the soc- the Sarkozy administration and the, and the, and the minister in question, these people just went to it and said, "Racist cartoon."

Joe Rogan 32:15 Hmm.

Douglas Murray 32:16 Not noticing that the cartoon was actually a joke about racists, but they didn't, they didn't bother to find that out. And I thought that, I thought that whole thing, among many, many other things, was deeply worrying from that point of view, because it means that in the immediate aftermath of something that should be so damn clear, a bunch of people can just try to reframe the narrative.

Joe Rogan 32:38 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 32:39 And re- and change the history of a publication. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:45 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 32:46 Um, claim it is just something different. And, and for a lot of people, of course, that was very, um, that was very convenient, because after all, if Charlie Hebdo's staff actually were these racists, then, you know, you didn't need to, uh, worry too much about them or why you'd been silent on the issues they'd spoken up about.

Joe Rogan 33:05 Yeah, the narrative had then been that these people had been mocking this disenfranchised, marginalized-

Douglas Murray 33:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:12 ... group-

Douglas Murray 33:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:13 ... in society, and that they had it coming-

Douglas Murray 33:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:17 ... in some very strange way. And it's, um, boy, part of me struggled with that because it was like, is this... Peo- some people just have contrarian instincts, everybody's going left-

Douglas Murray 33:25 Sure.

Joe Rogan 33:25 ... they just go, "Well, I don't like it." And they wanna go-

Douglas Murray 33:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:28 ... the other way. There, there's so many people that have that instinct. And then there's, as you said before, this, uh, headline mentality, they read the headline and don't look any further into it, even if it's a headline about a headline.

Douglas Murray 33:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:40 It's, there's, that's all they need. They're armed with enough facts, they slam their laptop down and start debating.

Douglas Murray 33:46 Yeah. And, um, and, uh, in that case, as in many others, totally lose sight of the only thing that matters. The only thing that matters in that case being is it ever right to make apologies for people walking into an office and gunning down people for an opinion you don't like? The answer to which has to be, of course, no.

Joe Rogan 34:11 Has to be.

Douglas Murray 34:11 Has to be no.

Joe Rogan 34:12 Yes.

Douglas Murray 34:13 And yet in these moments, so we had one 20 years before with the Rushdie affair-

Joe Rogan 34:18 Yes.

Douglas Murray 34:18 ... the Satanic Verses affair. In these moments, you discover that you don't have the allies on your side you thought you did. In the wake of the Rushdie affair in '89, uh, it was people from the right and the left in Britain who started making excuses for the Ayatollah, you know. Uh, we had, uh, the, the chief rabbi then of the UK, Jacobovitz, to his too, to his shame, said, "Both Mr. Rushdie and the Ayatollah have offended people's feelings." As if Salman Rushdie had, uh, in, in, you know, called on all novelists to go to Tehran, assassinate the Ayatollah if they had a chance. Um, you had, uh, um, somebody like, uh, a right-wing, uh, conservative minister, uh, Geoffrey Howe, who said that, said that, uh, Rushdie had done, had really offended Britain, he'd been rude about Britain, as if that had anything to do with anything. Um, there was a, uh, one, um, there was one famous, uh, case of a, of a Conservative peer who said about Rushdie that he, it wouldn't, uh, bother him if a group of young Muslims took Mr. Rushdie into an alleyway and taught him some manners. Um, so y- and you had that from the left as well, uh, Bernie Grant, a Labour MP famously said at that point that burning books wasn't a problem for him.

Joe Rogan 35:36 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 35:37 Um, and, uh, that was when they were burning the Satanic Verses in Bradford.

Joe Rogan 35:41 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 35:41 So, so you get these weird coalitions of people who suddenly turn out not to get the point, not to get the point, not want to defend. And then of course, you get the cowards who say things like, "Well, it wasn't my sort of novel. You know, I, I didn't think the novel was all that good. I, I, Midnight's Children, I could cope with. But, but the Satanic Verses, he lost me with the plot." As if that means that then you can call for the death of the author rather than just give it a bad review.

Joe Rogan 36:02 How is he now? Is Salman Rushdie still in hiding? I know he does a lot of interviews now, and it seems to be more relaxed.

Douglas Murray 36:09 Yes. Uh, there, he seems to be, I don't know the, the, the specifics. He, um, there was an assurance, I think given some years ago, uh, in the Labor ye- Labor government, that, that with Tehran, that they would not actively, uh, um, uh, encourage the murder of Rushdie anymore. Um-

Joe Rogan 36:28 How nice.

Douglas Murray 36:29 How nice of them.

Joe Rogan 36:29 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 36:30 ... that's a freezing of relations-

Joe Rogan 36:32 (coughs)

Douglas Murray 36:32 ... um, (clears throat) or unfreezing of relations. Uh, but, but, you know, the, the, the point I wanted to make was that, that's, again, we've all, we've been through these things. We know how it plays out. With the Charlie Hebdo, uh, um, events, the murder of the staff and contributors to that magazine, we, we knew, in the immediate aftermath, what was going on, and that, that there were people who just wanted to make excuses, and, and you still hear that everywhere. I mean, I, I've heard it on every single free speech debate in my adult life. Um, I remember there was a debate when I was growing up, and I remember in every one of the things in recent years, from the Danish cartoons to the, uh, Jewel Medina scandal, uh, uh, where a publisher in London was firebombed for publishing a n- novel that was actually amazingly fawning about Mohammed, uh, to Charlie Hebdo and since, you, you just get these, this strange group of people from right and left, some believers, some non-believers, who always just come up with these bullshit, bullshit arguments and, and say things like, "Well, I didn't find the cartoon very funny." Or, or, "I never, I never took that magazine, uh, seriously." Or, "I, I, I didn't think it was right when they did this." And they, it, they just, they just don't, for some reason, have the fortitude to just say the only thing that matters in their, in the wake of that, which is no.

Joe Rogan 37:57 Do you think that's because Islam is unique in their approach to anything that goes outside the lines of what they feel is-

Douglas Murray 38:08 Oh, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 38:09 ... acceptable? I, I mean, in, in terms of like, they will murder you if you draw Mohammed.

Douglas Murray 38:12 Yeah. This is, this is, this is wh- what's been described as the internalization of the fatwa.

Joe Rogan 38:17 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 38:18 Um, if, if, uh, I'm sure you've had this experience, but it's actually worse now. The, the presumption is worse than the actual reality. Uh, I have quite often people saying to me, "Now, I, I'd, I'd like to write this piece about X, uh, but I don't know if I can because, you know, I might get a death-

Joe Rogan 38:33 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 38:34 ... death sentence." And actually, I always say, "What are you talking about? Write it." Um, fortunately, so far, I haven't given that advice and the person's then been in any way under any f- uh, actual danger, let alone being killed.

Joe Rogan 38:47 Right.

Douglas Murray 38:48 But ... And I think I might feel differently if that wa- was the case. Um, but, uh, but that's, but, th- there is this, an overcompensation occurring at the moment, and it, it goes far, far within the, within the boundaries of what actually could plausibly get you into any trouble, whether or not the trouble is, you know, legitimate to get into or not. Um, so that now, yeah, I- I've had many journalists in recent years, particularly since Charlie Hebdo sort of sidle up to me and say, "Well, I would quite like to do this, but I don't, I don't dare." And, and, you know, I'm talking about for like very basic reporting and things. Uh, they're not people saying, "Hey, I've decided to draw a great big cartoon of Mohammed with a great big dick, and, uh-"

Joe Rogan 39:31 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 39:31 ... you know, uh, having sex with the Pope or something. You know, I ... It's not that. It's never that. It's never people saying, "I really just ... So keen to draw Mohammed today, Douglas. What should I do?"

Joe Rogan 39:43 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 39:43 It never is that. It's always something way, way, way down.

Joe Rogan 39:47 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 39:47 "I'm thinking of ..." Even, like, saying something critical of certain regimes. So, so the internalization of the fatwa since 1989, which has been exacerbated now by the killings at Charlie Hebdo and elsewhere and the attacks on the Jyllands-Posten in Denmark means that we are in this p- period where, where people are really hyper, hypersensitive, and they really shouldn't be, because it really isn't that bad. It's not as bad as they think. But this is, you know, you can do so much work if you, if you say to people, "I've got Kalashnikovs on my side." I mean, the extent ... And people in free societies, like ours, are really, really loathe to admit this, but it's the classic bounce- it's the classic sort of, uh, mob trick, you know, knocking on someone's door. "I'm very, uh, disappointed in you, but my friend here, my huge friend, uh, is, uh, is, uh, really angry and I'm just holding him back." You can do an amazing amount of work if you're willing to pull that kind of trick. And if you can persuade people and it's actually the case that there are people you're holding back, th- then you can make enormous inroads like that.

Joe Rogan 41:00 Well, especially when there's actual evidence that people have been murdered and have been-

Douglas Murray 41:04 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 41:05 One of the more fascinating things about Charlie Hebdo to me was the refusal of any of the mainstream media to show any of the cartoons.

Douglas Murray 41:12 Yes.

Joe Rogan 41:13 You had to go online, and I felt like this was a ... They gave up the reins of information to the internet.

Douglas Murray 41:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:18 I mean, it was, uh, it was a real transitionary moment in our culture.

Douglas Murray 41:22 Yeah. Yes, everyone went online to see what they-

Joe Rogan 41:24 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 41:24 Uh, apart from-

Joe Rogan 41:25 It was the only place to go.

Douglas Murray 41:26 Apart from your parents, you know. I mean, like, they were still, like, under the impression that these must be, you know, incredibly pornographic cartoons-

Joe Rogan 41:32 Right.

Douglas Murray 41:32 ... that were really, really viciously attacking somebody. Um, but no, m- most, anyone young can, uh, could find this out for themselves. And you're right, they, they, they gave up the, uh, the space to the net. And they, they all, they all had, again, these sort of rubbishy i- uh, arguments of their own about it. I tried in Britain to, uh, get the press to do it at one go, uh, um, a couple of days after the massacre and, um, got pretty close, uh, that if everyone's ... A sort of I am Spartacus tactic. If everyone did it at once, then it would be okay, but ... Or it would make it easier. And the argument you always get about that is, and it's a very persuasive argument, is that the editor of the me- of the magazine or newspaper might get protection and so on. But, you know, a girl from the typing pool sort of thing.

Joe Rogan 42:26 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 42:26 And, uh, which is what happened actually in some of the Satanic Verses killings and stabbings and things. You know, s- so like a Norwegian translators, Japanese translate... You know, it's, it's people who, under no security protocol, could possibly end up...... all getting protected. Uh, it, and, and on the basis of fearing that, the boss al- almost always says no.

Joe Rogan 42:47 One of the more uniquely American responses to the Charlie Hebdo attack was they had a Draw Mohammed contest in Texas.

Douglas Murray 42:54 Yes, I followed that.

Joe Rogan 42:55 Yeah, that was fascinating. And some guys-

Douglas Murray 42:58 In Garland.

Joe Rogan 42:58 ... showed up and started shooting at the building.

Douglas Murray 43:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:01 And they were killed almost immediately.

Douglas Murray 43:03 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:03 Which is because they're in Texas and-

Douglas Murray 43:06 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 43:06 ... that's just not the place to fuck around. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 43:08 Uh, true, although, I mean, it's, it's worth mentioning that, I mean, the, the, the, uh, editor at Charlie Hebdo had police protection-

Joe Rogan 43:16 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 43:16 ... in Paris and they just, I mean, I suppose they, it's not worth dwelling on, but I mean, they, uh, the, the, the battle-trained, uh, people who were sent from Yemen.

Joe Rogan 43:26 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 43:26 To carry out that operation, which just were better prepared than, than-

Joe Rogan 43:30 Right.

Douglas Murray 43:30 ... the French authorities realized. Um-

Joe Rogan 43:33 Well, but n- very few people are, uh, really ready to militarize cartoonist offices.

Douglas Murray 43:40 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:40 I mean, and that's really almost what you would have to do. You would have-

Douglas Murray 43:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:43 ... to have, you know, Navy SEALs with bulletproof vests.

Douglas Murray 43:46 Yes, and then-

Joe Rogan 43:46 Locked and loaded.

Douglas Murray 43:47 And then let's face it, I mean, the whole thing, then you do start to question, you know, like, well, is this cartoon that funny-

Joe Rogan 43:53 Right. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 43:53 And so on.

Joe Rogan 43:54 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 43:54 And that, that's what they actually have done at Charlie Hebdo. They have, um, they did it a while ago, say, "Look, we're, we're not gonna keep doing this."

Joe Rogan 44:01 Well, didn't they have Mohammed making out with someone, like, almost immediately afterwards?

Douglas Murray 44:05 Uh, yeah, immediately afterwards.

Joe Rogan 44:06 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 44:06 That's right, yeah. Um, but after about a year or so, they, they, they stopped. Uh, they said they didn't want to do Mohammed again and, uh, and, uh, and you can't blame them. I mean-

Joe Rogan 44:16 Of course.

Douglas Murray 44:16 ... th- this is the thing, isn't it? You, y- uh, I, I'm sure you have this experience, but, um, in these sorts of times, I, I always get, uh, people on the, apart from the Turkish donkey porn guy, other people on Twitter send me things like, you know, "Well, why don't you draw Mohammed?"

Joe Rogan 44:31 Right.

Douglas Murray 44:32 Sort of stuff.

Joe Rogan 44:32 Sure.

Douglas Murray 44:33 And first of all, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm not a cartoonist, but, uh, secondly, the, the way in which this is always presented is amazing because it's always from (laughs) like XenaWarriorPrincess1293-

Joe Rogan 44:44 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 44:45 ... "You don't have the guts to draw Mohammed, Murray." And, you know, I'm like, well, well, you don't even have the guts to have your own name on Twitter, mate, so. Uh, but, but there's, there, there is a bit of, of egging along-

Joe Rogan 44:57 Yes.

Douglas Murray 44:57 ... that happens in those c- cases. Um-

Joe Rogan 44:59 But I don't wanna draw Mohammed. I don't wanna piss people off by drawing the cartoon. But what I do wanna point out is that you, if you, if you don't defend people's rights to draw things without getting murdered-

Douglas Murray 45:11 Yes.

Joe Rogan 45:12 ... then you're living in an insane society.

Douglas Murray 45:15 Yeah. And, and, th- th- then there's a f- another thing which is we all know what comes next. I mean, my point about this has always been, think of something smaller than a cartoon to do.

Joe Rogan 45:25 Right.

Douglas Murray 45:25 Okay. I mean, I still reserve the right to be amazed that we call something a cartoon crisis and keep a straight face.

Joe Rogan 45:32 Right.

Douglas Murray 45:32 Our whole, you know, we're gonna have to militarize in Garland, Texas 'cause there's a cartoon crisis going around.

Joe Rogan 45:36 Well, the-

Douglas Murray 45:37 You know?

Joe Rogan 45:37 ... natural progression could easily be you're, you're not allowed to draw the cartoon. Then from there, you're not allowed to speak of drawing.

Douglas Murray 45:46 Right. But-

Joe Rogan 45:47 And then from there, you have to show that you have a very certain idea in your head of what is good and what is bad, so you have to show that by verbalizing something. So you're forced-

Douglas Murray 45:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:58 ... to, f- forced to verbalize something.

Douglas Murray 45:59 And, and, uh, let's face it, it's not as if it's just the cartoon that's the problem, is it?

Joe Rogan 46:04 Right.

Douglas Murray 46:04 I mean, it's a novel, it's, uh-

Joe Rogan 46:05 Sure.

Douglas Murray 46:05 ... short story and so forth.

Joe Rogan 46:06 It's anything.

Douglas Murray 46:07 And that's one of my big beefs about this, is, is that, uh, I, I don't want to not say what I think is true. And e- even if that does offend, you know, 1.3 or four billion people, as is often said in, in tones that are not entirely unthreatening. Uh, i- i- i- if, if, uh, Charlie Hebdo or somebody else can't draw a cartoon of Mohammed, then, then I know that exactly in tandem with that is somebody saying, "And you, Douglas, or you, Joe, or you, or anyone else, can't say what you find in the texts or what you think about this religion. And, and you can join the rest of, uh, of the society in being brave and, uh, y- you know, going to the Book of Mormon on a Friday night for a laugh, and it is a laugh, but don't you dare think of applying to Islam the same kind of speech that you would apply to Mormonism."

Joe Rogan 47:00 Right.

Douglas Murray 47:01 And, and that, that I, that I won't do. I just, I just won't join in on that. And, um, uh, despite there being, you know, a, a price to pay for that. But I just won't not say what I think is true in these matters.

Joe Rogan 47:16 Are you aware of what they did with South Park?

Douglas Murray 47:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:19 With South Park-

Douglas Murray 47:19 Oh, that's funny.

Joe Rogan 47:19 Which South Park, it got very crazy, where they not only could not draw Mohammed, they couldn't draw Mohammed in a bear suit.

Douglas Murray 47:28 (laughs) Yeah, I remember.

Joe Rogan 47:29 So then they had to have Mohammed in a bear suit in an armored car, so you couldn't even see him, but it was implied that Mohammed was inside the armored car in a bear suit and it's still-

Douglas Murray 47:43 But they did Mohammed's voice, didn't they?

Joe Rogan 47:44 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 47:44 Mohammed like went, "Urgh."

Joe Rogan 47:46 Yeah, they, they gave him a cr- a screwy voice.

Douglas Murray 47:48 A screwy voice. They said that was okay, as long as you joke about the voice of Mohammed, you're okay, but don't you dare show him.

Joe Rogan 47:53 It's fucking insane. I mean-

Douglas Murray 47:54 But al- and it's really weird as well because, because actually, uh, I mean, again, they all make presumptions. They're just not true. It's not true that nobody ever drew Mohammed. It's not true. There are, uh, illustrations in books that are still on sale of very old illustrations of Mohammed through, throughout Islamic history.

Joe Rogan 48:11 That's before they knew better, bro.

Douglas Murray 48:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:14 They didn't know better. They got a new note from Mohammed. Mohammed was like, "Look, I don't like these fucking drawings of me."

Douglas Murray 48:18 Yeah, they're not adorable.

Joe Rogan 48:19 "Cut it out."

Douglas Murray 48:20 Yeah. They're not flattering.

Joe Rogan 48:21 "Cut it out or I'll start killing people."

Douglas Murray 48:22 They don't show my best side.

Joe Rogan 48:23 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 48:24 And, uh, but, but th- this is, this is, i- this is a very strange position to be in because South Park ends up, yes, holding the line, then South Park-

Joe Rogan 48:32 Yes.

Douglas Murray 48:32 Like weirdly-

Joe Rogan 48:33 They got threatened.

Douglas Murray 48:33 It's like, you know, fatwa against South Park.

Joe Rogan 48:35 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 48:35 Well, I didn't see that headline coming.

Joe Rogan 48:37 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 48:37 Um, and again, everyone internalizes it and, uh, everyone thinks, "Well, you know, I, I, I, I, I admire them in their Mormon work, but I wouldn't, not sure I'd follow-

Joe Rogan 48:45 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 48:46 ... them in their Mohammed work." So, and then the whole culture-... tilts.

Joe Rogan 48:50 Right.

Douglas Murray 48:51 It, it, it, it, it... Um, a-and that's, that's, I think, where we are at the moment on this and I, uh, I, I've just... You know, the, the cartoon will never be funny enough, the, the joke will never be funny enough, the novel will never be good enough and so on. And, uh, and then in the end, the speech will never be worth speaking enough. I, I, a little while ago, had a l- very clear experience with this. I read about it on the radio in Britain where I was i- in a discussion with a, a Muslim cleric who's a sort of reformist figure and, and, uh, admire in some ways, who, in a discussion about something, said, "Well, you know, also Mohammed, um, Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, was, was v- he took criticism in his own right. He took criticism very, very well. He never minded people criticizing him." (laughs) And I was like, "That's absolute crap. That is real crap." I mean, whatever else you can say, he, he... Mohammed, n- not really good on this, on the criticism of himself bit. And I gave an example of a female poetess who he had killed because she criticized him and this guy went absolutely ape shit and refused to continue and so on and-

Joe Rogan 50:00 Because you gave an actual-

Douglas Murray 50:01 Because I gave-

Joe Rogan 50:02 ... historical example.

Douglas Murray 50:03 ... an historical example from his own religious texts and, uh, and in the end... It was a pre-record and in the end, the BBC were like, "Ugh. Douglas, can you find another way of trying to make the same point?" And you know, u- and, and that was what we had to do. I mean, I, I-

Joe Rogan 50:17 Wait a minute. Another way of making the same point-

Douglas Murray 50:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:20 ... rather than pointing out the historical texts-

Douglas Murray 50:22 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:22 ... that showed that Mohammed did have a female poet killed.

Douglas Murray 50:26 Yes. He just-

Joe Rogan 50:27 What other way would there be to make that point? That is the-

Douglas Murray 50:30 It was hard. I mean-

Joe Rogan 50:31 But that's the ultimate way to make that point.

Douglas Murray 50:32 Exactly, which is b- by pointing to the texts and the facts, but i- i- y- you know, I can think of no other situation in which somebody has veto rights like that-

Joe Rogan 50:43 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 50:44 ... in a normal discussion.

Joe Rogan 50:45 And it's because they are terrified of the retaliation.

Douglas Murray 50:47 Yes. I mean, I knew everyone in the production box was like, "Oh, no, what's Douglas done?" And-

Joe Rogan 50:52 So-

Douglas Murray 50:52 ... "How can we stop it affecting us?"

Joe Rogan 50:54 What was this cleric's response to that?

Douglas Murray 50:57 He, yeah, he, he just, he, uh, w- went, yeah, as I say, a bit nuts and, uh, wouldn't continue unless I m- you know, wouldn't say that and so-

Joe Rogan 51:07 But what, did he deny that it was in the texts?

Douglas Murray 51:09 Oh, yeah, yeah. Said I was making it up and I was a liar, but I'm used to that.

Joe Rogan 51:14 But that, that's a crazy thing for him to say-

Douglas Murray 51:17 Sure.

Joe Rogan 51:18 ... when someone could just read the text.

Douglas Murray 51:20 Yeah, but they, they're banking on nobody doing that.

Joe Rogan 51:22 Well, not in this day and age.

Douglas Murray 51:24 I mean-

Joe Rogan 51:24 Don't bank on that.

Douglas Murray 51:25 Yeah. I, this is, this is one of the really interesting things, isn't it? Because although it's true you can, like, suppress a lot of this, you know, we do live in an age when basically anyone can Google and find texts and they can-

Joe Rogan 51:37 Sure.

Douglas Murray 51:37 ... they can find this.

Joe Rogan 51:37 It's a book that a billion people have read.

Douglas Murray 51:39 Uh, I'm not sure they've read it, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:41 Well, possess it.

Douglas Murray 51:42 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 51:43 How many people do you think read it? How many people do you think read the Bible? Like, if you had to, like, guess-

Douglas Murray 51:48 There are those-

Joe Rogan 51:48 ... the number of Christians in this country is probably-

Douglas Murray 51:51 There are those tests, aren't there? They sometimes do, the Humanist Society in UK-

Joe Rogan 51:54 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 51:54 ... did a few years ago asking very basic questions-

Joe Rogan 51:57 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 51:57 ... of self-professed Christians about their knowledge of the texts and very few, like, I think-

Joe Rogan 52:03 My favorite is self-professed Christians with religious tattoos. Like, "Hey, man, you gotta read the whole book."

Douglas Murray 52:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:11 (laughs) Like, you, you are literally showing-

Douglas Murray 52:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:14 ... on your skin-

Douglas Murray 52:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:15 ... that you didn't read the whole book.

Douglas Murray 52:16 Right. Didn't pay attention in the early bits.

Joe Rogan 52:18 It says don't do that.

Douglas Murray 52:19 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:21 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 52:21 This is Leviticus. Is it, is it Leviticus that's, uh, that's got the implications against writing on skin, I think?

Joe Rogan 52:26 I believe so. I believe so.

Douglas Murray 52:27 I think if you read Leviticus, there's a heck of a lot you can't do if you, if you-

Joe Rogan 52:30 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 52:30 ... if you go down Leviticus, I think.

Joe Rogan 52:31 I can't wear two pieces of different cloth.

Douglas Murray 52:34 Yes. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 52:35 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 52:35 Leviticus.

Joe Rogan 52:36 Leviticus is a wonderful book.

Douglas Murray 52:37 It's got be... It's very good for the mohawks, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:39 What, lev- Leviticus wasn't the one... Which was the book where the guy, um, called upon the she-bear to kill the children who were mocking his baldness? Do you know about that one?

Douglas Murray 52:51 No.

Joe Rogan 52:51 My favorite, especially-

Douglas Murray 52:52 Go on.

Joe Rogan 52:53 ... as a bald guy. (laughs) This guy was getting mocked by, uh, children, fucking kids and God called upon a she-bear to come down and tear apart these children who were making fun of his bald head. Here, uh-

Douglas Murray 53:09 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 53:09 ... Elisha and the two bear, 2 Kings. Yeah. Look at that.

Douglas Murray 53:14 Wow.

Joe Rogan 53:14 Went up to... (laughs)

Douglas Murray 53:16 If you were going to intervene in human affairs for anything, this would be the time, wouldn't it?

Joe Rogan 53:19 That's when God's gotta step in. Listen to this. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 53:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:22 You can't have this-

Douglas Murray 53:23 You can't have this kind of stuff going on.

Joe Rogan 53:25 Young kid, young kids came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you bald head. Go up, you bald head," which is very mild, and when he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord, all caps. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up 42 lads of their number and he went from there to Mount Carmel. It's like, you know-

Douglas Murray 53:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:50 ... no big deal. It's over. Got it done. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 53:52 Um, that's, that's, yeah, that's... My, my favorite, uh, uh, reading from scripture was the one, the end of, uh, one of the books. I can't remember which one. It was, I was a chorister when I was young and it always made, made me laugh. There was a, this, the destruction of the city of Nineveh. It fin- and it finishes, I think not only finishes the chapter but the whole book. It says, you know, "And low in that, in that city were 40,000 human souls that were destroyed and, and also some cattle." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:20 (laughs) Cattle just by association.

Douglas Murray 54:23 Not some cattle.

Joe Rogan 54:24 Bad cows.

Douglas Murray 54:25 Oh.

Joe Rogan 54:25 They were bad cows.

Douglas Murray 54:26 Not the cattle.

Joe Rogan 54:26 God had to fuck up those cows, too.

Douglas Murray 54:28 Um, but no, the, um... Oh, the bald head one, that's, uh, that's-

Joe Rogan 54:32 Hilarious.

Douglas Murray 54:32 That's, that's a, that... Yeah, that's a heck of a time to, you know, to tread into human affairs.

Joe Rogan 54:36 It's not even an insult.

Douglas Murray 54:37 No.

Joe Rogan 54:37 You bald head.

Douglas Murray 54:38 No.

Joe Rogan 54:39 You bald head is just an accurate description.

Douglas Murray 54:41 The... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:41 I mean, that is not an insult. If you're like, "You ugly-"

Douglas Murray 54:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:45 "... sloppy bald-headed loser." Okay.

Douglas Murray 54:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:49 Then maybe God needs to step in.

Douglas Murray 54:50 Why, why is-

Joe Rogan 54:50 And send some wolves to attack you. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 54:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:53 And why do they specify that they're female?

Douglas Murray 54:55 Some demon. Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:56 Why is it female bears?

Douglas Murray 54:57 And 42 of their number.

Joe Rogan 54:58 Yeah, 42 kids-

Douglas Murray 55:00 42 of their number.

Joe Rogan 55:01 ... and two bears. Those are some-

Douglas Murray 55:01 For one bald head.

Joe Rogan 55:02 Those are some bitch-ass kids that need to learn how to run.

Douglas Murray 55:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:05 That doesn't even make sense. How the fuck do those bears even catch all 42 of those kids? What kind of kids are they raising over there-

Douglas Murray 55:11 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 55:11 ... in Bethel? (laughs)

Douglas Murray 55:11 All right, all right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:14 Those kids should have got the fuck out of there. What, they're all sitting around waiting their turn?

Douglas Murray 55:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Well, what I mean-

Douglas Murray 55:19 Trying out curse words till one causes the bears to come down. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:25 (laughs) You shaggy bear.

Douglas Murray 55:26 That didn't work.

Joe Rogan 55:27 You shaggy, mangy-

Douglas Murray 55:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:29 ... dirty, stinky bear. (exhales)

Douglas Murray 55:32 Bald head. (exhales)

Joe Rogan 55:34 Yeah, there's so many of those stories that are so strange.

Douglas Murray 55:36 But I've been... No, I be- I bet that, uh, that most... If we've, if we were to go to the, the people who, who say that they're Christians in the polls and ask them about... We don't even need to go to the bald head bear nightmare.

Joe Rogan 55:47 Right. Old Testament is, they don't accept old. Most people don't even bother reading that 'cause it's just, it's almost too crazy.

Douglas Murray 55:53 Yeah. But, uh, but, uh, but, uh, yeah, very, very little knowledge even about very basic things.

Joe Rogan 55:58 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 56:00 Um, uh, uh, you know, even commandments and so on.

Joe Rogan 56:03 Right.

Douglas Murray 56:03 So, so that's the case with a religion that America and Britain has known best, with Christianity. So, there's no reason to assume that that's not the case with Islam as well.

Joe Rogan 56:11 Isn't that just the case with people? I mean, it seems to be the same thing that we're talking about with headlines. Someone reads the headlines, they don't bother reading into it-

Douglas Murray 56:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:17 ... and then they accuse someone of something. It's almost like with relig-... "I'm a Christian and I'm a Christian man." "Oh, really? Please tell me about the Bible."

Douglas Murray 56:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:24 "Oh." You know.

Douglas Murray 56:27 Uh, it's, um, i- i- there's something... By the way, I've often thought this is one of the reasons why there's, it's possible to get a certain fanaticism going within Muslim communities on some issues to do with blasphemy, is, I think, is to do with a, a, a realization of this. "You said that this was the case about our prophet. I didn't know that. I, uh, uh, he did what?" I've had this, uh, all my adult life with, with, uh, arguing with various Muslims about things. The, um, they very rarely know the problems in their own tradition and when you bring them up, they're like, "Well, the what? He did what?" Uh, like the Christians with the bald bears.

Joe Rogan 57:09 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 57:10 And, and this causes a really serious problem for them, because they are told from the cradle that the, that they are following a religion founded by the most perfect man imaginable. And if you discover that... If you... It's like, you know, there are no, there's no description of Helen of Troy-

Joe Rogan 57:30 Right.

Douglas Murray 57:30 ... in the ancient text. Why does nobody describe Helen of Troy? Why does nobody say, "Did you know she was a sort of... She had this, this beautiful blonde ringlet sort of..." It's because it actually catches on as a, as a, a theme because everyone makes Helen of Troy their most beautiful woman. If you start to describe... You'd be like, "I'm not into redheads."

Joe Rogan 57:47 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 57:49 I, you know, everyone would-

Joe Rogan 57:49 Right.

Douglas Murray 57:50 ... put something on... Helen of Troy becomes the person upon you, w- uh, whom you put all of those things.

Joe Rogan 57:55 Ah.

Douglas Murray 57:55 And in the same way, Mohammed becomes, if you say he is the perfect human being, people will just, throughout their lives, put the kind of things they think are perfect onto Mohammed. He, he must have been very kind, very generous, very caregiving and so on. So, that if you then say, "Well, what about when he then did this?" I think it just causes an extra hurt. This is something they'll have to get over, of course, because, I mean, we, we can't go away and not-

Joe Rogan 58:21 Right.

Douglas Murray 58:21 ... not identify these, these issues. Um, but it causes, in the short term, enormous, enormous pain. I have a, an example I gave recently in a book of, um, somebody I spent some time with a couple years ago, an extraordinary man called Morten Storm. Um, he was a Danish biker. He was in a big, in a biker gang in, in Denmark. Uh, went to prison. And in prison, about 2000 or so, he converted not just to Islam, but he converted to Al-Qaeda basically. He's not a, not a common person, uh, in any way and, uh, he ended up being the main go-to person for someone called Anwar Awlaki, who was the head of Al-Qaeda in Yemen, and in fact was asked to give him a... Get a wife for Awlaki to supplement his wife collection. And, uh, uh, Morten Storm, among other things, ended up falling out with Al-Qaeda and ended up working for the CIA and Danish intelligence and ended up helping lead them to Awlaki, who was then droned by Obama, um, in 2011 or so. Anyhow, I once said to Morten Storm, um, "What was the moment that made you get out of, uh, Al-Qaeda?" And he had such a fascinating answer, he... 'Cause he, he came out of Al-Qaeda and Islam at the same moment. He says what was happening was, he was sitting in his... He, he was waiting for a package from an Al-Qaeda drop-off to get then from him to Awlaki and the, the, the person carrying the package was late and then really late. And he was sitting in his apartment somewhere in Germany, I think, at that point, and he was so pissed off about this and he had a laptop o- uh, that was there on the table and he thought basically, "How can I express my pissed-offness with my Al-Qaeda colleagues for wasting my time like this so much?" And he went to Google and he typed in "contradictions in Islam" and began to read.

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Whoa.

Douglas Murray 1:00:13 That was how he got out.

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 Wow. That's what did him in?

Douglas Murray 1:00:17 He just-

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 Someone being late.

Douglas Murray 1:00:18 He just started reading again. "They told me this. Th- They, they never told me that. I never knew that." And that was... So, as I say, he's a very, very uncommon (laughs) person, but, but I think that might be happening quite a lot more than we know. People just Googling things, finding stuff out for themselves.

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 Well, it's the most dangerous r- religion to leave 'cause-

Douglas Murray 1:00:42 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 ... they kill apostates.

Douglas Murray 1:00:44 They do.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Yeah, so what's... How is he dealing with that?

Douglas Murray 1:00:47 Um, well he, he lives in hiding, so, I mean...

Joe Rogan 1:00:49 Wow.

Douglas Murray 1:00:51 Yeah, yeah. Well, interesting. Uh-... about, uh, two years ago.

Joe Rogan 1:00:58 (exhales) One of the weirdest conversations that I ever saw anybody have with someone who was a believer, um, was, uh, Dawkins, I think it was-

Douglas Murray 1:01:06 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 ... was, uh, having a conversation with someone and he asked him point-blank whether or not he believed that Muhammad split the moon.

Douglas Murray 1:01:13 Oh, yes. I think I know this was with a, a very close enemy of mine called Mehdi Hasan, who, uh, worked for Al Jazeera and who Richard Dawkins did a interview with, and I think he... That's right, he fluffed something earlier on, uh, Dawkins, he, that he didn't take him on then, he took him on on this. That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 1:01:33 And I think that Hasan said yes-

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 Yes.

Douglas Murray 1:01:35 ... didn't he?

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 He said yes.

Douglas Murray 1:01:35 And then... And then it led to this terrible problem, which is, uh, really interesting, interesting problem of our era, which is that then Dawkins said, "I can't believe that somebody..." Or said afterwards, "I can't believe that somebody could be a working journalist and believe that, you know, Muhammad flew to the moon on a half-human horse."

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 Right. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:01:53 Um, (laughs) and, uh, of course, I mean, there's a, there's a, uh, interesting point there.

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:01:57 But of course, we do, quite rightly, allow people to believe bizarre and insane things-

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 Well, sure-

Douglas Murray 1:02:03 ... of that ilk.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 ... in Christianity. It's filled with bizarre things.

Douglas Murray 1:02:05 And... Exactly. And if we started saying you can't have public office or work in journalism if you profess to be of this particular faith, then, well, we wouldn't get anywhere, we wouldn't have anyone left, and so...

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 How does the story go? Muhammad flew to the moon on a half-human horse?

Douglas Murray 1:02:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:17 And split the moon with a sword? Is that what he did?

Douglas Murray 1:02:20 Yeah, I can't remember. He could've then been attacked by female bears, but I can't remember. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:02:24 No, I can't... Yes, he... It's the night journey which is, uh, uh, central.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 And how did the moon get glued back together again?

Douglas Murray 1:02:31 Oh, I don't... Is it glued back together?

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 It looks like it is. I haven't looked close.

Douglas Murray 1:02:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 Maybe I need to pay more attention.

Douglas Murray 1:02:39 (exhales) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 It's just the, the fact that appre- I mean, I, I, I believe this was a few years ago, so let's just say it was 2010 that this interview or that this-

Douglas Murray 1:02:48 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 ... debate took place.

Douglas Murray 1:02:49 Yes, it wasn't long then.

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 Even eight years ago that someone would be comfortable saying-

Douglas Murray 1:02:54 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:54 ... that, that they believe that.

Douglas Murray 1:02:55 Oh, well, uh, you see, I got into a little bit of trouble. Uh, d- d- Richard Dawkins got a little bit annoyed about me, uh, uh, uh, because I took the mickey out of him for dodging the one earlier in that interview.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 What was the earlier one?

Douglas Murray 1:03:05 He... I'm a great admirer of Richard, uh, uh, as, as everyone is, I'm sure. But, um, he, he knows exactly where the cliff edge is.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Mm.

Douglas Murray 1:03:16 And in that interview, he, uh, he was asked on Al Jazeera by this, uh, uh, interviewer. He s- he read out the bit from The God Delusion about, uh, you know, uh, there's a great bit of rhetoric about, uh, the most, uh, that Go- he describes God as something like the most appalling, you know, narcissistic, murderous, blah, blah, blah, character in all of fiction. It's a terrific piece of writing.

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 Mm.

Douglas Murray 1:03:39 And the interviewer says to Dawkins, "Do you, do you, uh, you stand by that as a description of the Christian God?" Dawkins says, "Yes." And he says, "And do you stand by it as a description of the Jewish God?" And he says, "Yes." And then he says, "And would you say the same thing about the Muslim God?" And, uh, I just knew exactly what was happening. And Richard Dawkins says, um, "Uh, uh, uh, about the Muslim God, I don't know so much." Which, he, he, as I say, he, he, he, he, he thinks I shouldn't rib him on this.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Mm.

Douglas Murray 1:04:05 And the thing was, what I noticed was that I just, I just, I, I f- I completely felt for him. He's been a very brave and, and brilliant, uh, writer and thinker on these matters and nobody's done more in some ways. But he, uh, I knew exactly what was happening. He was staring right over the cliff edge, and somebody was behind him nudging.

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 Mm. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:04:24 And if he had of said, as it were, live on Al Jazeera, "Oh, yes. Allah, you know, is a total bastard," then, ah, you know, you don't know. Maybe that's-

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 Right.

Douglas Murray 1:04:37 Maybe you're then in real trouble.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:04:40 And so he stepped back from the brink then, and I rather s- crudely perhaps took the mickey out of him afterwards for it. I said that it was just that Richard Dawkins was demonstrating the survival instinct of his species. But-

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:04:52 ... I, I, that-

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 That's true.

Douglas Murray 1:04:53 I feel bad about it, but it is true. It is true, but we've all been there to some extent, and-

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 What, what was his response to that though?

Douglas Murray 1:05:01 To my-

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 To your criticism of it.

Douglas Murray 1:05:03 Uh, he, um, well, uh, he basically, he, I, I think he did take it on board in a way, um, for slightly complex reasons. But, uh, I, I, I know, and I know he was also annoyed that I was at war... Uh, the... I think he felt that I was doing that to him then.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Mm. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:05:19 "Go on, you do it."

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 Right, right, right.

Douglas Murray 1:05:22 Um, and that is very common, uh, in that... I've had that a lot i- in my life of, of, uh, uh, in this particular area of people trying to egg me over, "Why don't you say that?"

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Mm. Of course.

Douglas Murray 1:05:34 And, uh, and you know that they're the people who'll be a million miles behind you.

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 Oh, yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:05:40 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 They, with their ears plugged-

Douglas Murray 1:05:41 Yeah, I've-

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 ... behind a wall. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:05:42 I always have a very (laughs) ... I always have a very, very visual aid of it, uh, somebody who actually is, is a terrific reformer, uh, in, uh, Islam, uh, now, and, uh, k- another cleric who once described to me, he went to fight for the mujahideen in Afghanistan, and, uh, you know, 30 years ago now, and described to me... He's not a very fightery-like person, but described how, uh, he did actually sort of rile, rile them up to sort of run over and get at the Soviets, and he's like, "You know, we're all agreed, yes? We'll go over. Yes?" They're like, "Go." And he, and they (laughs) sort of went 20 yards forward and he (laughs) , "Guys? Guys?" And everyone else just stayed in the trench. And I've always thought this is exactly the, uh, uh, the experience (laughs) of anyone in this area when you talk about it.

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 Well, everyone recognizes that there's inherent danger in this criticism. Even this d- discussion right now, I'm sure-

Douglas Murray 1:06:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 ... there's people right now firing up their webcams and writing blogs and tweeting and getting upset about it. You, it's-

Douglas Murray 1:06:34 Possibly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:34 Any rational discussion of that particular subject, you could kind of get away... I mean, I get criticism from, uh, Christians, but it's not scary.

Douglas Murray 1:06:46 Right. Yes, that is, um, that's, that is the big difference at the time being, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:06:51 I... This is, this is something that's so, it's just so important to talk about it, that the, a nuance that almost never gets added in. But of course, we all just assume it, so we don't think it's worth saying. But we are aware that any religion or th-... thought like this could be this dangerous at different phases.

Joe Rogan 1:07:06 Yes.

Douglas Murray 1:07:07 You know, we mightn't have wanted to be in Spain in certain points in the last millennium.

Joe Rogan 1:07:13 Sure.

Douglas Murray 1:07:14 Um, w- we might not have wanted to be a Catholic dissenter at certain points, or a Protestant dissenter at others, and so on and so forth. We all know that.

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 Yes.

Douglas Murray 1:07:21 It's just that at the moment, that's pretty quiescent and, uh, uh, and quiet. And of course it's less quiet here than it is in my country. I mean, one can't imagine the Anglican Church becoming militant about anything at any point soon. Uh, you do have some angrier types of Christian here than we have in my country and so it's easy for me to think they're slightly less, uh, uh, uh, risky at some point in the future than, than you might. But, but it's just that we do recognize this could happen elsewhere as well. It's just that at the moment it's, it's, it's not the Quakers. They're, they're, uh, they really don't send me a death threat from one year to the next.

Joe Rogan 1:07:59 Right.

Douglas Murray 1:08:00 Rather nice people.

Joe Rogan 1:08:02 There's a, an inherent danger of a retaliation from people who are more radical Christian, that if this continues and if you see-

Douglas Murray 1:08:13 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 ... more and more of, uh, more and more attacks from people of Muslim faith-

Douglas Murray 1:08:18 Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 ... you could possibly see retaliation from people, especially in this country.

Douglas Murray 1:08:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 Like, after 9/11-

Douglas Murray 1:08:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 ... there was an extreme amount of, of hate for Muslims and i- irrational hate for people-

Douglas Murray 1:08:31 Most of which was-

Joe Rogan 1:08:31 ... who had done nothing wrong.

Douglas Murray 1:08:32 ... directed at, uh, Sikhs, as I remember.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 Yes. Well there was a lot of that out of ignorance. They just didn't-

Douglas Murray 1:08:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:37 They didn't ... I mean, that was the most disturbing, because S- Sikhs are pretty interesting people.

Douglas Murray 1:08:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 And the fact that they just instantaneously, with no information at all and no understanding, out of complete ignorance-

Douglas Murray 1:08:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:50 ... attacked them.

Douglas Murray 1:08:51 I, uh, I have a, I, I, I second to no one in my gloominess about some of the things that we're gonna go through in Britain and Europe in the coming years, but, um, I recently had a reason to be even more gloomy about one aspect of it relating to this, which is this. We had, uh, three big bad terrorist attacks last year in, uh, in the UK, including the Manchester Arena bomb, where 22 young people were blown up on a Monday night for going to hear Ariana Grande. Um, and a- after the third of those attacks, which was on London Bridge when, uh, three people who were actually known to the authorities, as they generally are, uh, slashed people's throats on the street and ran to Borough Market as people were drinking, and, like, stabbed people while shouting, "This is for Allah." After the third of those attacks, it was, it felt like, "Oh, God, is this, is this really just gonna keep happening? What are we gonna do about it and what can we do?" And after the Manchester one in particular, there was this kind of thing of everyone sang, apart from John Lennon's Imagine, there was Oasis hit, Don't Look, Don't Look Back in Anger. And these themes, I was like, we weren't meant to think anything other than that. We weren't meant to be angry in any way. And, uh, then, then just a terrible thing happened from another direction. Uh, outside Finsbury Park Mosque, which is a mosque with a very troubled and bad history, um, in London. Uh, um, a guy from Wales in a van drives into the crowds as they're milling around outside the mosque, kills one man and injures a number of others. Uh, that guy, by the way, just to show how complex all this can get, is, uh, he was tried and found guilty last month in the courts in the UK. Uh, he, uh, he had been... He was obviously very mentally deranged and he had a history of mental illness and all that sort of thing, as very often people do in these situations, but he, uh, he had watched a BBC drama called Three Girls, which is the first time that the BBC had really addressed the issue of the Rotherham, uh, Rochdale rape gangs that happened in the last decade in the UK, which is still a sore that's going on, where about 1,500 girls in one town alone were basically, uh, abused by, uh, gangs of Muslim, mainly Pakistani men. And it's a very, very ugly business, partly because it was so awful that nobody, that nobody at the state or the police level or anything else wanted to look into it, and they are now. The government inquiry said that they, they didn't look into it because they were worried about being called racist and Islamophobic and so on. The press did a lot of not being interested in this as well. Eventually, after all these years, the BBC makes a documentary called Three Girls about three of the girls who suffered from these rape gangs, and then a man in Wales sees it and gets so enraged, people say at the local pub he was railing against the bloody Muslims and all this sort of thing, and then he hires a van and drives into a crowd of people outside a mosque. And you have this awful feeling that the BBC didn't want to deal with the issue that the program was about for years because it was so awful and ugly and sounded like something made up by some kind of nativist racist, you know, so it's had everything. Um, and then they do, and then it turns out a member of the public sees it and drives a van into a crowd. Yeah, I mean, you know, this, this sort of couldn't get more complex in a way. So, and I thought after that, "Okay, maybe, maybe the, maybe the BBC were right. Maybe they shouldn't, maybe they should cover up the gang rape of 1,500 girls. Maybe the public can't cope with it."

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:12:37 "Maybe they will get into vans." Now, as it happens, I know the British public, I think, fairly well, and I think that that guy in Wales is a very, very unusual figure. I don't think it's very common, I don't think everyone's gonna do that. I don't think we're all like that wicked madman. But I don't know. I mean, I don't know for sure everywhere, I don't know what the, I don't know what would happen in this country or in various other countries if there were three attacks like that in quick succession. I don't know. But i- this is, this is really...This is gonna get complex.

Joe Rogan 1:13:08 It's already complex. And th- the response to it is complex, too. Wh- how do you, how do you, if you, if you are a journalist, if you are, um, a television channel-

Douglas Murray 1:13:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:21 ... how, how do you report on this?

Douglas Murray 1:13:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:22 Do you think about the responsibility of alerting someone-

Douglas Murray 1:13:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:13:26 ... to these actual real atrocities that's gonna force them to react on innocent people that did nothing in front of this mosque?

Douglas Murray 1:13:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:32 The, the fact that these people in this mosque are somehow or another connected-

Douglas Murray 1:13:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:13:35 ... to these people that did these horrible crimes just by virtue of the fact they're in the same religion-

Douglas Murray 1:13:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:39 ... that's insane, too.

Douglas Murray 1:13:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:41 It's all insane.

Douglas Murray 1:13:42 It's, uh, uh, I mean, it seems to me the only, the only way through it is to say First of all, I, I, I mean, I don't... I, I read the American press all the time, and I think that it's, it's worse than the British press in, in, in that self-appointed role of believing its task is to stand between the public and the facts, you know, and sort of negotiate between the two, uh, see what they think the public can cope with or should know, and then feed them that. Um, i- i- the American press seems to me to be rife with that, that temptation, a- as ours is. But it seems to be the only way around this is, is to not, not give into that and to try just to publish the facts when they happen, because it's just obviously seems to be much wor- We, we always know in political scandal what's worse, the cover-up. It's always the cover-up.

Joe Rogan 1:14:26 Right.

Douglas Murray 1:14:26 And that, that may be the case with all this. Maybe, maybe the, the argument for just the papers explaining stuff that's happened is... maybe that's, maybe that's all they can do, and that it, one could just say to them, "It'll be a lot worse if you bottle this up, because otherwise people will get the idea that there is some conspiracy to cover over certain stories, and, and they'll be onto something."

Joe Rogan 1:14:53 And in fact, if you think about the millions of people that must have seen that, this story on the rape of 1500-

Douglas Murray 1:15:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:15:01 ... the fact that only one person responded that way-

Douglas Murray 1:15:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:15:04 ... is pretty extraordinary in and of itself.

Douglas Murray 1:15:05 Yes. Yes. I, I, I would've... And I would have thought on some of this... I mean, you know, I don't know. Again, I mean, there are... uh, there are lots of examples one could use, but, uh, when something bad happens like the Manchester Arena attack, uh, I'm, I'm amazed in a way that people are so decent. I mean, I'm so pleased they are. But they... we really, we don't go out looking for people to attack. You know, the, the, the public, certainly in Britain, I can happily say, and I think it's the same in America, the public... we're not really lynch mobs waiting to be got going again.

Joe Rogan 1:15:40 Right.

Douglas Murray 1:15:40 But the expectation that we are is the only possibility of creating us in such a way. Um, it's only by treating us as if we can't deal with ugly things that go on that you could see the situation, it's where we began, th- to see the situation in which that all goes wrong in