Joe Rogan Experience #1095 - TJ English & Joey Diaz

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Oh, okay. (laughs) Boom,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Oh, okay. (laughs) Boom, and we're live with Joey Diaz and TJ English. Uh, Joey turned me on to you a long time ago, Mr. English. Uh, he gave me a copy of The Westies, right?

   2. JDJoey Diaz0:16

      Yeah. It was... '98, '99.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      A long time ago-

   4. TET.J. English0:20

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      ... he gave me that book.

   6. TET.J. English0:21

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      It's fantastic, really.

   8. TET.J. English0:24

      Thank you.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      Fascinating stuff.

   10. TET.J. English0:25

       Yeah. First book I published.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Was it really?

   12. TET.J. English0:27

       Uh, The Westies, yeah, in 1990.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       How'd you guys find out about each other?

   14. JDJoey Diaz0:31

       He wrote a book... A friend of mine turned me onto a book named Havana Nocturne, that was a small book, a fascinating read, and I was just blown away by him. And I went to a party one night and there was a literary agent there, and I go, "Do you fucking guys read Havana Nocturne?" They go, "We optioned it." And I was like, "That's fucking in-... That's gonna be a great book." It just, uh... It broke down the, the, uh... how Fidel took over it from three different cities, how it was going down in three different categories. And then I heard that he was writing a book about West New York and Union City Cubans, where I grew up. And I emailed him and I told him who I was, that my mother had a bar, and, uh, I grew up in that shit. And he hit me back and we became friends. He came to a show and...

   15. TET.J. English1:19

       Yeah, Joey reached out to me, you know, unfortunately, when I was just about finishing this book. So I had done most of the work and it was down on paper, but it was a trip. It was like he w-... He was like a character who walked out of the book.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       (laughs)

   17. TET.J. English1:34

       And, uh, I wished I'd met him earlier, 'cause I hadn't met too many characters like him. Union City's amazing place. Uh, I don't think people realize it. It's one of those little enclaves, happens to be Cuban. It's like a mafia neighborhood, but it was Cubans, not Italians. Or it was like Hell's Kitchen, which I wrote about in The Westies, which was-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:54

       Yeah.

   19. TET.J. English1:54

       ... an Irish neighborhood. Very intense neighborhood. Uh, high premium on loyalty. Um, young males running loyalty games on each other all the time, from the age of six. Am I right?

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       How so? What do you mean?

   21. TET.J. English2:09

       How far you'll go-

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:10

       T- Can I turn the sucker up towards you? Yeah.

   23. TET.J. English2:11

       How far, how far will you go for me, uh, you know?

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       Yeah.

   25. TET.J. English2:14

       Uh, what are you willing to do for me? In the case of Hell's Kitchen and The Westies, it was cut up bodies. It was not only would you kill somebody for me, but will you make the body disappear? And they tested each other with, with the cutting up of the bodies. In Union City, a lot of it was, was political. Some of it was polit-... How anti-Fidel are you? How badly do you want to kill, you know, Fidel and help us reclaim our lost homeland? That was kind of behind a lot of things. It wasn't spoken about a lot, but it was sort of the hidden motivation.

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:49

       Westies was a really fantastic book. Like, you, you went deep into that whole sort of sub-scene. You know, it's a, it's a very interesting crime-infested area.

   27. TET.J. English3:01

       Well, what, what I try to do with these books is to tell the macro story, the, the larger historical, sociopolitical story, and then get intimate and tell the interpersonal stories between the characters that actually live the story. That's a challenge. You gotta find people who are willing to talk to you and share information with you that they've kept quiet probably most of their lives. And then you get at the interpersonal stuff, 'cause these stories really are just human beings caught up in something that's bigger than them.

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:34

       And how long... When you, when you're writing a book like The Corporation, which is your new book, or Westies, or any of your books, how much time do you spend doing the research and how much time do you spend actually writing the book?

   29. TET.J. English3:44

       Uh, it takes about three years to do these books, on average. And, and two of those years is research, probably.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:52

       Wow.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Wow. …

   1. TET.J. English15:00

      and people defended him. Even, even when it, it turned ugly and he became a ruthless boss who was killing people left and right, he had his defenders because of his legend as a hero in the community. And so, um, the power that he had. But he also had this, uh... (laughs) Joey and I were talking about this. Um, Cubans have this, Latinos have this, everybody has it, but Cubans have it, uh, a desire for revenge. This guy... You know, the Bay of Pigs invasion was an attempt at revenge, to get revenge against Castro, and they were humiliated by that process. And a lot of the guys from that generation had an unfinished agenda for revenge. So if you wronged this guy, Battle, in any way, he was gonna get you, even if it took years and years of calculation. I mean, there's stories in the book about this one guy who killed his brother named Pululu. He took, it took nine years and 12 attempts before they finally killed this guy, Pululu. They shot him in his hospital. He was in the hospital. They shot him. Had a assassin dress up as a male nurse and go into the hospital and shoot him between the eyes. (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:11

      Wow.

   3. TET.J. English16:11

      'Cause there had been so many failed attempts, they weren't gonna fail this time. And that's... And Battle took 12 years. I mean, took nine years.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:18

      Did they catch the assassin?

   5. TET.J. English16:20

      No, never caught him. Really. No way.

   6. JDJoey Diaz16:21

      Just bang and slipped out of the window.

   7. TET.J. English16:22

      Just disappeared into nothingness. I believe the assassin got killed later 'cause he was talking about it, having done it, and so Battle had him killed.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:30

      Wow.

   9. TET.J. English16:30

      Yeah. So the, the revenge, uh, motive, the revenge motive, um, kind of drove Battle off the deep end. And, uh, somewhere along the line, he broke bad, so to speak. I mean, I don't know if he was ever good and had to break bad, but he started doing internal killings that really had nothing to do about business. They were all about revenge.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:52

       Well, thi- this is a, a theme that happens a lot with organized crime people, right? It's like they just get a taste of killing people and it becomes easier and easier, and then they, uh... Like, that was the thing about Murder Machine, right? About Roy DeMeo?

   11. JDJoey Diaz17:04

       Right.

   12. TET.J. English17:04

       Yeah.

   13. JDJoey Diaz17:04

       He just was fucking nuts.

   14. TET.J. English17:05

       He just kept, just was killing people

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       He just became addicted to it, yeah.

   16. JDJoey Diaz17:07

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       ... with anything after a while. That's another book you gave me. (laughs)

   18. JDJoey Diaz17:09

       Yeah, Murder Machine. I was reading all those books on the road-

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       Yeah.

   20. JDJoey Diaz17:13

       ... because I was auditioning for so many Italian roles-

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:15

       (laughs)

   22. JDJoey Diaz17:15

       ... and I never really knew the history of it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:18

       Ah.

   24. JDJoey Diaz17:18

       So I was just trying to read all those books just so when I went in, I had an idea of what these characters and who they were. I saw them growing up. I saw these guys, you know, growing up. I just didn't... The interesting thing about this book was, uh, talking to the Bay of Pigs, is that they knew that they were coming. Like Fidel knew-

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:39

       Right.

   26. JDJoey Diaz17:39

       ... he was coming.

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:40

       Yeah.

   28. JDJoey Diaz17:40

       He put barbed wire or something in his corral. They, the, the soldiers all slashed their feet as they were landing. There was four battalions, uh, I think, and 250 men.

   29. TET.J. English17:51

       Well, you know what happened when they landed?

   30. JDJoey Diaz17:52

       What happened?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      of time where you didn't have any Che Guevara. There was no, no discussion of it.

   2. TET.J. English30:04

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      And then it seemed like similar in the 2000s it picked up. Am I right about that?

   4. JDJoey Diaz30:09

      Something like that, yeah. Hey, let me tell you something. It was so personal for a while. Like, I have Argentinean friends, but in the '70s there was a rift between Argentineans and Cubans. Like, that's how personal the Cubans took-

   5. TET.J. English30:23

      Che is Argentinean to them.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:24

      Yeah.

   7. JDJoey Diaz30:24

      Che is Argentinean.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:26

      Right.

   9. JDJoey Diaz30:26

      Like, there was a rift.... like, it was-

   10. TET.J. English30:28

       Because of him?

   11. JDJoey Diaz30:29

       Because of him.

   12. TET.J. English30:29

       Wow.

   13. JDJoey Diaz30:29

       Like, Cubans, the fuck outta here.

   14. TET.J. English30:31

       Really?

   15. JDJoey Diaz30:32

       Talking (Spanish) . Get the fuck outta here.

   16. TET.J. English30:34

       What is a- what is that? Is it the way they-

   17. JDJoey Diaz30:35

       You know, Castellano, they talk-

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:37

       (laughs)

   19. TET.J. English30:37

       How do they talk?

   20. JDJoey Diaz30:37

       They talk (Spanish) .

   21. TET.J. English30:39

       They do it with the lisp. (Spanish) .

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:40

       Ah.

   23. TET.J. English30:40

       Come with the tats. Oh, yeah-

   24. JDJoey Diaz30:42

       They talk (Spanish) .

   25. TET.J. English30:42

       ... like some Spanish.

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:43

       Like Spain. Yeah, what-

   27. JDJoey Diaz30:44

       And Cubans would go-

   28. TET.J. English30:46

       Yeah.

   29. JDJoey Diaz30:46

       ... off in Union City if you were Argentinean.

   30. JRJoe Rogan30:48

       Really?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. TET.J. English45:00

      c- th- there's ... You have social systems, and you will have corruption.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:04

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TET.J. English45:05

      You have a money-making system like capitalism, you will have corruption. That doesn't go away. Organized crime has ... The face of organized crime has changed quite a bit, but the core of, of that corrupt relationship between the underworld and the upper world still exists.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:22

      So, is it the most disenfranchised sort of members of the community, the, the, the most recent immigrants? Like, what, what is it that-

   5. TET.J. English45:30

      Yeah. I've written about this a lot, you know, through different books and through journalism. I've come to believe that it, it, it's the American story, uh, this process of going through organized crime and gangsterism before you become accepted as a full-blown American. Um, every, almost every ethnic group has gone through some version of it in the US, and is still, and is still going through it. It's part of the American process. You get here as a group. You're, you're cut out of access, uh, immediate access anyway, to, to power, and so you create your own path. And initially, uh, in these organizations, it's usually those ethnic groups preying on their own, preying on each other. That's usually the first stage of this. And then it, it becomes, uh, creating a system to try to deal with the larger system of corruption. I mean, Jose Miguel Batlle, what he did, what was so brilliant by creating the corporation, is he created a path for himself within American organized crime, which was controlled primarily by the mafia. And he created an alliance with the mafia that made it possible for the Cubans to have their thing, and, and fly below the radar. I mean, while the Italians were getting busted left and right, the Cubans, the Cubans ... This corporation existed for 40 years because they didn't really get messed with much.

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:55

      Why is that? Like, what, what ... Was it the, the way the Italians ... Like, they were so flashy, like particularly when you got to Gotti. He was the most ridiculous of them, right?

   7. TET.J. English47:02

      Well, the Cubans were pretty damn flashy, too.

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:05

      So what was it?

   9. JDJoey Diaz47:05

      Some of them, some of them.

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:07

       Some of them. Pull this mic in front of me.

   11. TET.J. English47:08

       They could be.

   12. JDJoey Diaz47:08

       Some of them. I, I ... Till this day, I detest nice cars. I detest show.

   13. TET.J. English47:16

       Calling attention to yourself.

   14. JDJoey Diaz47:17

       Because I saw two ty- ... Like right now, like, I would love to talk to the producers of this film, because they're gonna miss a lot of authentic stuff.

   15. TET.J. English47:26

       I'm sure they will.

   16. JDJoey Diaz47:26

       In fact, I have a present for you. I ordered you the same shirt Bruce Lee wore in Fist of Fury.

   17. JRJoe Rogan47:33

       (laughs)

   18. JDJoey Diaz47:33

       They're called camisetas chinas, Cubans, when you, when you're a success. Remember when Tony goes in to see-

   19. TET.J. English47:41

       Yeah, yeah.

   20. JDJoey Diaz47:41

       ... his mother? "Momma, I'm a success. I-"

   21. TET.J. English47:43

       Right.

   22. JDJoey Diaz47:43

       "... I run anti-Castro." When you become a success in Union City, the Chinese T-shirt is your first sign-

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:50

       (laughs)

   24. JDJoey Diaz47:50

       ... of success because it has three buttons here.

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:53

       Right?

   26. JDJoey Diaz47:54

       So you cut the buttons off, and then ... What's your middle name?

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:58

       James.

   28. JDJoey Diaz47:58

       So it's Joseph James Rogan. In diamond initials, you put J.J.R.-

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:04

       (laughs)

   30. JDJoey Diaz48:05

       And that's when you've reached success.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   To tap into it,…

   1. TET.J. English1:00:00

      system.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:01

      To tap into it, you mean hack into it?

   3. TET.J. English1:00:02

      To tap... Hack into it and alt-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:03

      Ah.

   5. TET.J. English1:00:04

      ... and alter the number.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      Oh.

   7. TET.J. English1:00:05

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

      Wow.

   9. JDJoey Diaz1:00:07

      That's craziness.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:08

       Wow. That is crazy.

   11. TET.J. English1:00:09

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:09

       What it, what is fascinating to me is that this, what you were talking about earlier, what we were talking about about, like, that this was... It gave them an opportunity for hope and that it was a part of the community.

   13. TET.J. English1:00:20

       Oh, yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

       We're missing that in the West Coast. The West Coast, like, off-track betting, there's no fucking off-track betting here.

   15. TET.J. English1:00:25

       Yeah, I know.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

       There's a few weirdos that go to the Hollywood Park, but that's gone now. You know what I mean? There's nothing here.

   17. TET.J. English1:00:30

       Well, you... The West Coast never had this.

   18. JDJoey Diaz1:00:32

       There's nothing-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:33

       Yeah.

   20. JDJoey Diaz1:00:33

       There's nothing like seeing that, like I saw that, and I saw what goes with it and it may sound ooky, spooky to most people, but it's not ooky, spooky to people who are really, really Sicilian and people who are very Cuban.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       It's normal.

   22. JDJoey Diaz1:00:49

       When you're Sicilian in that culture, there's women that you go to and they tell you things. They're witches, they're Sicilian witches.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       (laughs)

   24. JDJoey Diaz1:00:56

       Whatever the fuck you wanna... In, in Sleepers, remember he goes, "Bring the eyeballs," to this lady.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:02

       What's Sleepers?

   26. JDJoey Diaz1:01:03

       Sleepers is a movie about four Irish kids that later was bullshit, but kind of, uh, one of the-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:09

       Yeah. I'm trying to remember that movie, yeah.

   28. JDJoey Diaz1:01:10

       It's about the four kids that-

   29. TET.J. English1:01:11

       De Niro plays a priest.

   30. JDJoey Diaz1:01:13

       Priest met... Uh.... uh, Brad Pitt-
6. 1:15:00 – 1:16:25

   Section 6

   1. TET.J. English1:15:00

      really interesting, but it's really important history. All this political connection to anti-Castro movement and the role th- the US government might have played in it, and the idea that this criminal conspiracy organization was allowed to go on for 40 years because certain elements in the US government didn't want to go after them, because they were afraid it would open the lid on the Cuban relations with the C... The anti-Castro relations with the CIA, the politics of it. That's, that's im- that's not only interesting history, it's important history to understand a certain social political relationship between the US and Cuba. The Bay of Pigs, the residue of the revolution, that... The way, the way that shaped... The Cold War shaped us politics over a period of about 50 years. So I was like, "Why don't I know this? This is amazing." This is like... Almost like a hidden history. I mean, I knew what got reported in the newspapers. But, you know, you lift up the rug and you g- you look underneath the rug and you start to get into the details of it, it just makes me so aware that what we're receiving as information on a daily basis from the me- mainstream media and everything, is a version of what's happening. There's a whole other version of what's happening that we don't see and you usually only find out about it 30 years l- later, 30 years after the fact. A- and that's a good thing to know.

Episode duration: 2:32:09