Joe Rogan Experience #1104 - Boyan Slat

1. 0:02 – 1:08

   Boyan Slat’s origin story: from teen inventor to ocean cleanup founder

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Three, two, one. Yes. Hello, Boyan.

   2. BSBoyan Slat0:07

      Hi, there.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Welcome.

   4. BSBoyan Slat0:08

      Thank you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it, and I love what you're doing. I've seen your TED Talk. I've seen many- in- numerous conferences that you've appeared at and-

   6. BSBoyan Slat0:17

      Oh.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      ... discussions you've given on this. And for people to jump into this right now, what you've done is, uh, think long and hard and devise a method to try to clean up some of the plastic that we have floating around in the ocean, famously the Pacific garbage patch-

   8. BSBoyan Slat0:33

      Correct.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:34

      ... which is this enormous patch of garbage that's between California and Hawaii. How did you get involved in this, and what- what- what- you're a young guy. How old are you?

   10. BSBoyan Slat0:44

       Uh, 23 already. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       23 already? You sound like- oh, my God, I'm so old.

   12. BSBoyan Slat0:48

       It's getting old. Yeah. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Yeah. How old were you when you started this?

   14. BSBoyan Slat0:50

       Um, I- I think I started thinking about this when I was 16 and, uh, founded this organization when I was 18.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       That's crazy. All you lazy fucks out there-

   16. BSBoyan Slat1:00

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       ... that are 16 years old that aren't doing shit with your life, just think about this kid.

   18. BSBoyan Slat1:04

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       That's amazing. I'm so happy there's people like you in the world.

   20. BSBoyan Slat1:07

       Oh, thank you. Yeah.

2. 1:08 – 2:22

   Why ocean plastic matters: ecosystem damage, economic costs, and human health

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:08

      So you started thinking about it when you were 16. And, you know, this is something that is extremely disturbing to anybody that's paid attention, especially when you see the birds that have died with all these plastic bottle caps inside their bodies, and you know, you see their carcasses with these multicolored caps in them, and they- they thought these things were food. I mean, it's just one of the many, many, many problems that occur when you have plastic floating around in just enormous numbers in the ocean.

   2. BSBoyan Slat1:38

      Sure, yeah. I mean, there's really three problems with this plastic. First of all, obviously the ecosystem damage. I think there are around about 800 species that actually could go extinct because of this plastic pollution. Um, then there's the economic threat, uh, in terms of, um, you know, damage to fisheries, damage to tourism and things like that. I think it's around, uh, $13 billion a year according to the UN. And then thirdly, there's the health impact, or the potential health impact, because these tiny plastic pieces, they actually also end up in- in the fish we eat, uh, that take chemicals with it, and, uh, yeah, that ends up on our dinner plate as well.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      So, what was it that prompted you to- to dedicate- essentially dedicate your young life to this?

3. 2:22 – 3:36

   The breakthrough idea: use ocean currents so the plastic comes to you

   1. BSBoyan Slat2:22

      Uh, sure. Yeah. So I've- I've always been very passionate about, uh, technology and just, uh, building things. I think sort of having an idea in your mind and then seeing that become reality and being able to touch it and things like that, I think, uh, there's literally no better feeling in the world than that. So I've- I've been building my own things since I was two years old, I think, um, first starting with things like tree houses and zip lines, but then going into sort of computers and explosives and rockets and things like that, which was a lot of fun, but it wasn't very, uh, useful, I would say. Um, so I was kind of looking for something sort of- um, something that real to- to- to work on a real problem. Um, and that's what I then came across when I was, uh, 16 years old. I was scuba diving in Greece, and I came across more plastic bags than fish, and I wondered, "Why can't we just clean this up?" And, uh, that question sort of s- kept, uh, circling around in my head, and, um, yeah, sort of thought about, well, how could we do this? The ocean is pretty big. Uh, and then eventually came up with this idea to- to use these natural ocean currents, uh, to- to basically let us collect the plastic.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:26

      And so how- do you have m- many different prototypes that you started with and you eventually wound up with what you have now, and have you started implementing them yet?

4. 3:36 – 4:39

   How the system works: U-shaped floating barriers as a ‘Pac-Man’ funnel

   1. BSBoyan Slat3:36

      Oh, yeah. I mean, so the, um, the- the concept that was presented back in 2012 with my- uh, my first TEDx talk, um, and if you compare that to where we are right now, it's sort of day and night of a- of a difference. Um, so, um, yeah, through testing and through, uh, all these prototypings, um, yeah, obviously there has been, uh, a lot of development there. But the- the key idea has stayed the same, that instead of going after the plastic with- with boats and nets, which would take around about 79,000 years to- to clean up just this Great Pacific garbage patch, instead of doing that, we let the plastic come to us. So we use, uh, basically a network, uh, a fleet of very long floating barriers, which are oriented in a U-shape, and they float around, and they kind of act like a- a- a massive Pac-Man. So, um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:24

      (laughs)

   3. BSBoyan Slat4:24

      ... yes, like a- like a funnel, brings the plastic towards it. Uh, the natural ocean currents push it against it, moves towards the center, becomes very concentrated, and once it's concentrated, well, then it's easy to get it out and ship it to land for recycling.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:37

      And has this started yet?

5. 4:39 – 5:56

   From concept to deployment: mapping the patch and building the first full-scale system

   1. BSBoyan Slat4:39

      Um, so the past, uh, so- so we were founded, um, yeah, around four years ago. Um, in that time, on one side we've did the- the reconnaissance, so we- we mapped the patch with 30 boats and an airplane at the same time to- to really understand how much is out there, which turns out to be 1.8 trillion pieces, uh, floating in this Great Pacific garbage patch. Uh, and on the other hand, we've done all the testing, so we've done, uh, hundreds of, uh, scale model tests, we've done prototypes back in Europe, uh, on the North Sea. Uh, and actually right now, we're- we're manufacturing the- the first, uh, real cleanup system, which, uh, is scheduled to be launched, uh, from San Francisco, uh, to the Great Pacific garbage patch in around two or three months' time.

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:19

      So has anything been used? Like is there a proof of concept of- have you done, like, real large-scale testing where you've shown that you can actually do this?

   3. BSBoyan Slat5:29

      Well, I mean, we've done a lot of subsystem testing, so the- the- the prototypes in the North Sea, for example, were sort of these 12-meter sections, and we- we managed there to- to keep that in one piece. So, um, but then- and also the plastic capturing, that worked very well in the lab. Um, but yeah, the- the real...... the, the real proof, of course, has to come from this one real system in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch collecting plastic, and that's what we really hope to achieve this year.

6. 5:56 – 12:06

   How big is the Great Pacific Garbage Patch—and why it’s the biggest

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:56

      So, this is the big one, right? The Great Pacific Garbage Patch is the largest?

   2. BSBoyan Slat5:59

      Yeah, so there's-

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:00

      Because Cal- between California and-

   4. BSBoyan Slat6:02

      And Hawaii.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:02

      ... Hawaii, yeah.

   6. BSBoyan Slat6:03

      Uh, so there, there are five areas in the world where, where plastic, uh, concentrates. Uh, this is by far the largest one. There are four others, uh, but they are, uh, they combinedly, uh, contain less plastic than this one in the, in the North Pacific.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:17

      Why? Do we know why that is?

   8. BSBoyan Slat6:18

      Uh, probably because of Asia. Uh, so Asia ha- has a, has quite a big problem in terms of that they, they use a lot of plastic, but they don't have a good infrastructure, so by far the largest source of plastic flowing into the ocean is also this, uh, this one continent. And what's being released there naturally, by, because of the currents, ends up in this North Pacific patch.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:38

      It's such a strange problem, because it wasn't something that was discussed in the '80s or the '90s. It was nothing.

   10. BSBoyan Slat6:45

       Sure.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:45

       And then all of a sudden, somewhere in the year 2000, I remember hearing about the massive amount of plastic we have in the ocean, and it just, it just made sense. I was like, "Oh, well, of course. Of course it's gonna wind up there." But the sheer size of it is staggering.

   12. BSBoyan Slat6:59

       Yeah, and I think the, to me, the worrying thing is that it's a, it's a persistent problem.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:03

       Yeah.

   14. BSBoyan Slat7:03

       So with, with many other kinds of pollutions, when you sort of turn off the tap, it's, uh, will be solved by itself. Think about, for example, the, the ozone hole with the CFCs. Uh, but with this, like, if you turn off the tap, the, the problem is still there, and in 100 years, it will still be there. Um-

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:19

       Right.

   16. BSBoyan Slat7:19

       So, so I think to, to really solve it, you need to do two things. On one side, we have to close the tap. On the other hand, we also need to clean it up.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       Jamie just pulled up a, uh, a size comparison where it shows 1.6 million square kilometers, an area twice the size of Texas or three times the size of France.

   18. BSBoyan Slat7:38

       Yeah, so this was a study we, we published a few, uh, a few weeks ago. So this was the result of that reconnaissance effort.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       (sighs)

   20. BSBoyan Slat7:45

       Um, and it's kind of funny. Like, every other news outlet used a different size comparison, so I think it was CNN that says it was the size of Mongolia. Um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:55

       Wow.

   22. BSBoyan Slat7:55

       ... um, Iran-

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:56

       We always use Texas.

   24. BSBoyan Slat7:57

       Yeah, Texas is a good-

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:57

       We're America.

   26. BSBoyan Slat7:58

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:58

       We use Texas for everything (laughs) .

   28. BSBoyan Slat8:00

       Four times California as well. Um-

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:02

       Yeah.

   30. BSBoyan Slat8:02

       ... so, uh, yeah, it's a pretty, pretty big area. (laughs)
7. 12:06 – 19:11

   Turning trash into products: ocean-plastic sunglasses, branding, and salvage rights

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:06

      Now, is it possible to take that stuff, all of that pacif- all those disgusting particles and use it for something?

   2. BSBoyan Slat12:16

      Yeah. I mean, sure. Um, I actually have a few examples with me, um, uh, in my bag, but it's not here right now. But-

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:22

      You can go grab it.

   4. BSBoyan Slat12:22

      Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:22

      Do you-

   6. BSBoyan Slat12:23

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:23

      ... want to go grab it?

   8. BSBoyan Slat12:23

      No, I'll, I'll do it in a bit.

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:25

      Okay.

   10. BSBoyan Slat12:25

       Uh, but I, I can describe it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       Okay.

   12. BSBoyan Slat12:27

       It's a podcast anyways. Um, so, um, so what we do is we take the plastic out and we, um, we recycle that. We've done, we've developed a, a process for this and we can turn it into new products. So actually the, the pair of sunglasses that I've finally been able to wear after a dreaded Northern European winter, um, they, we already made that out of plastic that we took out of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch and-

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:49

       So you're wearing sunglasses that are recycled from the ocean?

   14. BSBoyan Slat12:52

       Exactly. And-

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:53

       Oh.

   16. BSBoyan Slat12:53

       ... and the idea is that we can do anything with this, right? So you can imagine sort of the, a part of your next car or-

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:00

       Yeah.

   18. BSBoyan Slat13:00

       ... your chair or whatever, you can make that out of ocean plastic. And what we think is that the material itself isn't valuable enough, but it's really the, the story behind it. So the fact that you can say, "Well, it's made out of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch," which we think will add value. So it's like the difference between a normal pebble and, and the piece of a, a, the Berlin Wall. It's-

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:21

       Right.

   20. BSBoyan Slat13:21

       ... one is worth shit and the other is worth something.

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:24

       Right.

   22. BSBoyan Slat13:25

       So that's what we kind of want to use as a way to, to then be able to fund the, the operations of the cleanup.

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:30

       I think that's a fantastic idea, and I think that'll be a huge value for people. I mean, I think people will really want to buy something that they know is recycled out of something that was choking fish and birds to death.

   24. BSBoyan Slat13:42

       Yeah. And, uh-

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:43

       Here it goes.

   26. BSBoyan Slat13:43

       ... not only that, uh-

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:44

       Adidas is turning plastic from the ocean into $200 shoes. The sportswear maker is teaming up with something to sell three new shoes made with plastic pulled from the ocean. Wow.

   28. BSBoyan Slat13:54

       Exactly. Yeah. That's awesome.

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:55

       That's awesome.

   30. BSBoyan Slat13:55

       That's the kind of stuff you can do. So I mean-
8. 19:11 – 21:10

   Engineering the recycling pipeline: washing, sorting, compounding into pellets

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:11

      So what is the process in taking the plastic from the ocean and converting into usable plastic like that you would use in sunglasses?

   2. BSBoyan Slat19:20

      Um, so, um, the first thing you would do is you kind of, um, you, you wash it, you sort it, you scrub it to, to get to

   3. NANarrator19:27

      (clicking) .

   4. BSBoyan Slat19:27

      ... so this very clean sort of, um, um, yeah, uh, fragments of, of the plastic. Uh, then we, um, we do, there's a process called compounding where you sort of remelt it and add some, some additives and make it into what you call pellets. So these are sort of these, uh, bead-sized, uh, particles which can be fed into any machine in the world. So say an Ikea machine for furniture or a Tesla machine for, for cars. Um, and, um, yeah, so that's... So, and that process we, we kind of had to custom develop s- tailor-made for, for our feedstock because it's such a, yeah, unique composition.

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:03

      That's amazing. It, it, it's really fascinating because I think that that will be a hugely desirable m- form of construction. Like, if you can prove that the plastic that you use was made and is actually, it's a, a benefit to, to get that plastic and, and, and make things out of it.

   6. BSBoyan Slat20:24

      Yeah. I mean, the, it, it's still more expensive, obviously, than just normal plastic-

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:29

      Sure.

   8. BSBoyan Slat20:30

      ... because we have to collect it from, uh, 1200 miles offshore. Uh, but, uh, on the other hand, so, so just by selling it as plastic, I don't think it, that would be a good business, but making into sort of going further into value chain up to the, the consumer, I think that can make sense. Because, again, to use the sunglass example, it's probably around, uh, 100 grams of, of material. Uh, so that would take about, uh, maybe a dollar to collect. And you know, what's a dollar on a $120 pair of sunglasses, right? So, um, so I think that really going it all the way up to in the value chain, th- that's where you can really add the value.

9. 21:10 – 25:41

   Bioplastics and plastic-eating fungi: promise, confusion, and limitations

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:10

      Well, you know, one of the things that was shocking to me when I was investigating plastic is that I didn't know that plastic, you can make plastic out of hemp, that hemp plastic is actually biodegradable.

   2. BSBoyan Slat21:21

      Yeah, and sugarcane and there-

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:22

      Yeah.

   4. BSBoyan Slat21:23

      ... there's many sort of bio-based, uh, types of plastic. Um, the, the thing is, though, that there's, you know, this is very, very sort of complicated and controversial world of, of sort of the bioplastics, uh, because you have something called bio-based and, and you have something called biodegradable. So you can make plastic out of, say, sugarcane, uh, which is chemically exactly the same as plastic that was made from crude oil. Uh, and it would take the same amount of time for it to degrade. So, uh, bio-based doesn't necessarily mean that it's biodegradable and-

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:56

      Hmm.

   6. BSBoyan Slat21:56

      ... and vice versa. So-

   7. JRJoe Rogan21:57

      Hmm.

   8. BSBoyan Slat21:58

      ... so it's, um, you know, it's a very, uh, complicated world that even, you know, sometimes, you know, I hear experts on this, on, on plastic pollution being confused about it, so let alone sort of the general population. So, uh, and, you know, in, in short, there isn't yet sort of the Holy Grail of this type of plastic that on one hand is very good in terms of performance in its, uh, usable life. And then when it, for example, enters the ocean, just degrades in, in a matter of days or months. So, uh, but I think that would be, you know, that would be a great innovation.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:31

      Is the quality of biodegradable plastic i- inferior to bio-based but non-biodegradable?

   10. BSBoyan Slat22:38

       Yeah, or it's, and it's mostly limited in the, in the terms of, uh, of applications.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       Ah.

   12. BSBoyan Slat22:42

       So you can't really do every-

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:43

       Like the, the, is the actual-

   14. BSBoyan Slat22:45

       ... everything with it.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:45

       ... physical plastic, does it feel different to the touch? Is it... Have you...

   16. BSBoyan Slat22:49

       Yeah. So it's, uh, it usually makes more noise. It's more sort of, uh, crumbly. Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:54

       Oh. So it's brittle or something?

   18. BSBoyan Slat22:56

       Right. Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:56

       Hmm. Interesting. Well, that makes sense, right? Obviously it's gonna ... So if you're gonna make water bottles out of biodegradable plastic, they're probably gonna leak everywhere.

   20. BSBoyan Slat23:03

       Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah, that, that's not possible yet. Uh, so they're compostable, that's another thing. You have compostable plastic which-

   21. JRJoe Rogan23:11

       Hmm.

   22. BSBoyan Slat23:11

       ... uh, which you can use for water bottles, but then the only way for it to degrade would be to be in sort of this industrial, uh, composter where you have a temperature of 100 degrees and, and pressure and things like that. And it wouldn't degrade in the ocean. So it's a, it's a very complicated, uh, area of progress.

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:29

       Yeah. And I know that there, uh, I had Paul Stamets on who's a mycologist, and he was, uh, talking about all the different fungus that could be p- potentially engineered to, uh, eat plastic.

   24. BSBoyan Slat23:41

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan23:43

       Like, this is another thing that they're working on.

   26. BSBoyan Slat23:45

       Yeah. So that, that, that, of course it would be great to have on, on landfills and things like that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:49

       Yeah.

   28. BSBoyan Slat23:49

       And actually, it's, it's, uh, it's a process that we're also investigating for, for recycling because one thing you could do is you could take that plastic and then using either enzymes or indeed fun- fungi and things like that, you could turn it back into biomass. So, um, and, and from that biomass, you could make, you know, anything else again. So you could make, um, bio-based plastic, for example.

   29. JRJoe Rogan24:10

       So does this change your relationship with plastic? I mean, when you sit there and you're drinking out of this plastic bottle, do you think, "I'm gonna have to clean this fucking thing up someday"?

   30. BSBoyan Slat24:18

       (laughs)
10. 25:41 – 27:38

    What’s actually in the patch: depth, microplastics, and a ‘ticking time bomb’

    1. JRJoe Rogan25:41

       No. I don't think so either. Not yet. Um, and, uh, when you're looking at the water and you see the plastic that is in this specific garbage patch and all the other, the other four patches, how deep does that plastic go from the surface?

    2. BSBoyan Slat25:54

       Um, so, so most of the plastic really stays, uh, on or near the surface. So we've, um, we've done expeditions to, for that to, to measure it, and that's actually why our system only goes three meters, uh, deep, because that's, uh... so below that, there's virtually no, uh, plastic anymore.

    3. JRJoe Rogan26:11

       Interesting. So it's only about nine feet. So when you're-

    4. BSBoyan Slat26:14

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan26:14

       ... when you're try... when you see the little tiny, itty-bitty pieces-

    6. BSBoyan Slat26:17

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan26:18

       ... so it seems like as the plastic breaks down over decades, it becomes, like, almost like a gelatinous sort of chunky thing.

    8. BSBoyan Slat26:26

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan26:26

       It's different.

    10. BSBoyan Slat26:26

        It's a, like... it's called, uh, microplastics. So you have sort of these, uh, particles that, that look a bit... almost like grains of sand, really, um, which are sort of really small, and even those we, we measured are primarily in those top three meters or nine feet, I think. Um, so... and, and another sp- surprising finding, I think, from, from those expeditions was that, uh, still more than 99% of the plastic is larger than a, a millimeter, so larger than those, those very tiny pieces, which means that on one hand, uh, I think that's good news, because that means it's, it's not too late, because obviously the smaller they get, the more harmful they get. Um, they end up in the food chain, but they also are harder to clean up, right? So, uh, so it's... on one hand, it's not too late, so that's the good, the, the good news, I think. But on the other hand, uh, it also means that there's still 99% of, uh, plastic out there that, uh, over the next few decades will become microplastics as well if we don't clean it up. Um, so there's sort of this ticking time bomb out there that, um, if we just leave it there, the amount of microplastics could increase over a hundredfold over the next few decades, and then we would be in a, in a, in much worse situation than we are today.

11. 27:38 – 31:00

    Wildlife harm and ghost gear: nets, ropes, ingestion, and entanglement

    1. JRJoe Rogan27:38

       So have marine biologists done studies on the impact in that particular area in terms of populations of fish and, and marine life?

    2. BSBoyan Slat27:47

       Uh, yes. So, so there's many species that, uh, that are being affected, o- o- on one side due to ingestion, on the, on the other side through, uh, entanglement. So actually, another finding of our study was that almost half of the plastic by mass is, uh, things like ropes and, and fishing nets-

    3. JRJoe Rogan28:06

       Mm.

    4. BSBoyan Slat28:06

       ... uh, which are, of course, disastrous, well, first of all, for propellers for, for boats that go out there.

    5. JRJoe Rogan28:11

       Oh, God. Look at that photo.

    6. BSBoyan Slat28:13

       Indeed. So marine life as well.

    7. JRJoe Rogan28:14

       This is a terrible photo of a, a turtle that l- I mean, it looks like it's caught in a bush. It's just this massive net that this thing is swimming around with this thing attached to its body.

    8. BSBoyan Slat28:26

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan28:26

       That's one of the things that I was gonna ask you about is cleaning up the nets, because, uh, we had talked to someone th- who was explaining that every time they fish, a lot of times they'll cut the nets loose.

    10. BSBoyan Slat28:38

        Yeah. Um, so it's probably a combination of accidental loss and, uh, and, uh, and intentional loss, but yeah. I mean, this, this... the amount of nets, uh, really was quite, quite staggering, and-

    11. JRJoe Rogan28:50

        Did you... do you remember who was bringing that up, Jamie? Somebody, somebody brought that up that they just release the nets and that it's commonplace, and it was stunning 'cause we were like, "What? Every time they do that?" Yeah. The, the nets get cut, and, you know, they get damaged, so they just cut the nets loose.

    12. BSBoyan Slat29:06

        Yeah. And the nets are plastic too, so...

    13. JRJoe Rogan29:08

        But that's insane that that's legal that they do that, that they don't have...

    14. BSBoyan Slat29:11

        Yeah. It's not legal, but obviously-

    15. JRJoe Rogan29:13

        It's not legal.

    16. BSBoyan Slat29:13

        No. Uh-

    17. JRJoe Rogan29:14

        No.

    18. BSBoyan Slat29:15

        ... but... so they're lost for this, but obviously how do you know that people do this? It's-

    19. JRJoe Rogan29:19

        Right.

    20. BSBoyan Slat29:19

        ... it's very hard to, to monitor in the middle of the ocean.

    21. JRJoe Rogan29:22

        Yeah. I mean, I guess. You should probably have some sort of a GPS tracking on your net.

    22. BSBoyan Slat29:27

        Yeah. I mean, that could be one thing, uh, or you could think about, uh, you need market-based solutions where there would be a financial incentive, uh-

    23. JRJoe Rogan29:35

        Mm.

    24. BSBoyan Slat29:35

        ... if they bring their, their nets to shore.

    25. JRJoe Rogan29:37

        Yeah. Then some sort of a penalization if they don't. What is this, Jamie? The impact on abandoned ocean fishing nets on marine life. I think that might've been Chris Riner Duncan. Oh, okay. That makes sense. That's what Google says. Oh, man. That is so... just so... it's so sad that it's such a wasteful, dismissive sort of thing to do. Just cut it loose and, "Huh, it's gone."

    26. BSBoyan Slat30:02

        Yes.

    27. JRJoe Rogan30:03

        "It's in the ocean. No worries."

    28. BSBoyan Slat30:04

        Sure. So that's, I mean, that's a very obvious kind of impact. And then another thing that, that was also a study, uh, done by us recently, so we looked at the, um, the, the concentrations of plastic versus naturally occurring mal- marine life in this garbage patch, and then what we saw was that there is 180 times more plastic at the surface than sort of natural food for, for birds, and for turtles, and things like that. So you can imagine if you are a turtle at the, at the surface of this garbage patch and you sort of take a bite to, to eat, there is 180 times larger chance that you eat plastic rather than a piece of plankton, right?

    29. JRJoe Rogan30:42

        Right.

    30. BSBoyan Slat30:42

        So, um, and what we found was that this, this concentration is so high that it can actually have this, this chemical impact, uh, where, um, yeah, where these chemicals have a potential health impact on these organisms as well as, um, species further up the, the, the food, food web, uh, including us humans.

12. 31:00 – 34:43

    Chemicals on plastics and human exposure: mercury, POPs, and leaching concerns

    1. JRJoe Rogan31:00

       So have we noticed that ... Have people been tested and shown to have ingested plastic that they've gotten through eating tuna or something like that?

    2. BSBoyan Slat31:11

       So th- the plastic itself isn't the thing that-

    3. JRJoe Rogan31:14

       The chemicals.

    4. BSBoyan Slat31:15

       Uh, yes.

    5. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       Yeah.

    6. BSBoyan Slat31:15

       So it's chemicals that attach to the plastic, and, um, and, uh, for example, what you see is that, uh, uh, for example, in Greenland, like, the, the native communities that really rely on fish, they have much higher cancer rates. They have, uh, much higher concentrations of, uh, mercury, uh, so other heavy metals as well is these persistent organic pollutants, these things that attach to the pre- to the plastic. Um-

    7. JRJoe Rogan31:39

       In Greenland?

    8. BSBoyan Slat31:40

       Yeah, like the, like these sort of, these native communities that rely on, uh, fish and, and other sea life to-

    9. JRJoe Rogan31:47

       So they're-

    10. BSBoyan Slat31:47

        ... to, to eat.

    11. JRJoe Rogan31:48

        This is a recent trend that they have higher rates of cancer?

    12. BSBoyan Slat31:51

        Um, yeah. Th- I don't know how recent it is, but, um, uh, probably in the past few decades I can imagine. But, uh, yeah, that's really linked to their, their marine, uh, the, the, their consumption of marine sources. Um-

    13. JRJoe Rogan32:04

        Oh. Wow.

    14. BSBoyan Slat32:04

        But, um, you know, obviously it's hard to say, well, how many percent of that is just-

    15. JRJoe Rogan32:08

        Heavy metals.

    16. BSBoyan Slat32:09

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan32:09

        You know?

    18. BSBoyan Slat32:09

        Versus, versus what's coming by plastic, but sure if you, um, yeah, if you look at the, the kind of chemicals and you look at the lab tests that they've done with that, those chemicals, yeah, they, they are not very good for you.

    19. JRJoe Rogan32:21

        Now, I've heard that if you leave a water bottle like this in your car and it gets hot out, that the water will, uh, pl- plastic will leach into the water. Is that correct?

    20. BSBoyan Slat32:32

        Yeah. So I think it, it depends on the kind of plastic that you have. Uh, I think with this, uh, you, probably the liner would contain like phthalates and, and things like that. So, um, yeah, I wouldn't do that. Um, so there's, you know, when you look at those chemicals you have, you have two kinds of things you should, I think, worry about. One is the chemicals that are actually in the plastic, and secondly there's these chemicals that just float around in the ocean and then, uh, can attach to the plastic, uh, when they, um-

    21. JRJoe Rogan33:00

        Mm-hmm.

    22. BSBoyan Slat33:00

        Yeah, because they sort of act like this chemical sponge. Uh, the plastic wants to repel water and those chemicals too, so they kind of act like a magnet towards each other. Um, and especially the latter one is, it's well studied and we see that a lot on the, on the, um, on the plastic. Uh, but the f- the, the former one, yeah, it, I mean, it's, it's even an issue here if, in your car, for example.

    23. JRJoe Rogan33:21

        It's an issue in your car? Like, how so?

    24. BSBoyan Slat33:23

        Yeah, well, if you leave it, like, in a hot car-

    25. JRJoe Rogan33:25

        Oh.

    26. BSBoyan Slat33:25

        And, yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan33:25

        Right, right, right. Now-

    28. BSBoyan Slat33:27

        (coughs)

    29. JRJoe Rogan33:27

        ... my question was, is ... even if you're scooping out all that plastic out of the ocean, is it still leaving chemicals that will, we'll never be able to get out?

    30. BSBoyan Slat33:39

        Um, so I think the chemicals mostly, um, actually it, it collects more chemicals than it sort of leaches out. So, uh, because of those, those sort of legacy chemicals like the, the PCBs and, and DDT, so those things that we use for, uh, insulators and, um, uh, pesticides back in the, maybe the '40s to '60s. (coughs) So these, um, these actually, um, uh, the, the plastic attracts those chemicals. So, uh, in a way, you, you kind of also remove a bit of those chemicals, and we actually have to wash them out before we do the recycling because you don't want those in your, your products.
13. 34:43 – 40:27

    Technology-first environmentalism: ‘close the tap’ plus clean the legacy pollution

    1. JRJoe Rogan34:43

       Right. Now have you extended this line of thinking to the, some of the other problems in the ocean, like these heavy metals?

    2. BSBoyan Slat34:51

       Um, well, so I, what I really hope is that the Ocean Cleanup can sort of become a symbol of how we should use, or how we should use technology to solve problems, uh, of our time. Um, so when you, um, and I think a lot of it comes down to that we shouldn't sort of protest what we shouldn't agree with, but we should build the things, we should build a future that we do agree with. Um, so when you look at the past few hundred years, um, of, um, modernity and, and our civilization, what we see is dramatic positive trends in terms of, uh, health, wealth, education, violence. I mean, you had Steven Pinker on your show, right?

    3. JRJoe Rogan35:31

       Yeah.

    4. BSBoyan Slat35:32

       Um, so I think that's really, um, yeah, really positive trends, and we've done a good job, uh, in that. And that all comes down to, uh, our ability to sort of imagine things that don't exist yet, so sort of technology and innovation, and being able to work, uh, work together in an effective way, which is think about the, the, the corporation. Um, so, so I think those have been, um, yeah, sort of very good trends and I think what we should do is we should also think about how to apply those to the area outside of our own species and to, to the rest of the environment, because when you look at all those positive trends over the past few hundred years, um, and then, you know, that, that's all good, but there's one very-... big exception, which is the impact to the environment. It's almost like we've had all the success at the cost of the environment, and, but I think that instead of ... And there are some people that have a sort of a more reactionary feel to this, and they say, "Well, um, look at, uh, all these problems. It was created by businesses and by technology, so we should stay as far away from those things as possible." And I think that's sort of, um, you know, that's sort of stupid. I think that, um, it really just shows that these are very, um, powerful ways of getting things done, and I think a much more effective way was to sort of apply that what has worked in other areas and then also apply that to the area of the environment. So, so I don't think, you know, I, I, for example, think that the, the car problem is not going to be solved by banning cars. I think it's going to be solved by electric cars. And I don't think the, the, the meat pollution problem is going to be solved by everyone becoming vegan. I think it's going to be solved by things like lab-grown meat and, and other kind of, uh, alternatives. Um, so, and that's why I also think that, um, yeah, the ocean cleanup or the plastic pollution problem is not going to be solved by sort of people trying to do their own little bit and, um, you know, trying to live without plastic or things like that. I think it's going to be solved by, um, you know, things like, uh, plastics that do not harm to the environment as well as technologies like The Ocean Cleanup to sort of clean up after ourselves. So, um, yeah, and I hope that The Ocean Cleanup can be, uh, sort of a som- a, a symbol of that approach.

    5. JRJoe Rogan37:53

       I like what you just said there, 'cause I, I've always thought that technology will most likely sort out most of these issues if we apply enough attention to it, and that one of the real issues is when someone creates some sort of a new technology, they really don't have the ability to see 50 years down the line what's going to happen with the side effects, the residual effects-

    6. BSBoyan Slat38:17

       Exactly. Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan38:17

       ... and I think that's, that's a big part of what happened with-

    8. BSBoyan Slat38:19

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan38:19

       ... plastic, and I don't think the solution is, you know, making an ax out of a piece of rock and living in the woods.

    10. BSBoyan Slat38:24

        Right.

    11. JRJoe Rogan38:24

        I just, I think that the solution is trying to have a long-term comprehensive approach to how we use m- various technologies and also various resources so that we don't have another Pacific garbage patch in some new technology 50, 100, 200 years from now. I mean, if you went to the ocean 200 years ago, you would see none of this.

    12. BSBoyan Slat38:47

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan38:47

        So this is a very, very, very recent issue that's compounding at a staggering rate.

    14. BSBoyan Slat38:53

        Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. So I, I agree with what you say there, and, you know, it's, um, yeah, it's- it's really just about, uh ... So I, I don't think, you know, I think there's a lot of people that think that technology is inherently neutral, like it's not good or bad. But I think that's not true. If you, like, compare, I don't know, some bioterrorist weapon, which you could invent, or you could invent a machine to clean the ocean, I would say, I would argue those are not equally, uh, good things to, to develop. So when technology isn't, uh inherently neutral, it means it's sort of deterministic, so the inventor kind of puts a certain, um, direction in the product already. And I think that can be used in our advantage, or to phrase it differently, I think there is a, a responsibility at, with inventors and, and entrepreneurs to, to build things that are more good than, than bad. And actually plastic, uh, I would still argue that plastic is a net positive technology, and it was once invented as a solution. Uh, it saves a lot of weight, um, a lot of people got hurt when, when people used glass bottles and things like that. So back in the day this was invented as a, as a solution, but it has this negative side effect.

    15. JRJoe Rogan40:07

        Mm-hmm.

    16. BSBoyan Slat40:07

        So then I think we should now think about, well, what develop- technologies can we develop to manage that negative side effect? And probably those have, again, a small negative side effect, but you can think about it like a, a compounding sort of staircase of, um, of net positive technologies. Like, I think eventually that's how we can actually solve these problems.

14. 40:27 – 49:14

    Recycling economics and scaling the mission: funding, sponsors, and fleet targets

    1. JRJoe Rogan40:27

       So, in this country, uh, there's a tremendous amount of recycling, but how effective is that recycling?

    2. BSBoyan Slat40:34

       Yeah. I, I think the, the amount of recycling is actually pretty low in the, in the US compared to, uh, to other countries, like in-

    3. JRJoe Rogan40:41

       Is it?

    4. BSBoyan Slat40:41

       ... in your- Yeah. It's just-

    5. JRJoe Rogan40:41

       We always think we do everything better over here. (laughs)

    6. BSBoyan Slat40:43

       Yeah. I've noticed that now. (laughs)

    7. JRJoe Rogan40:46

       What- (laughs) What country's the best at it?

    8. BSBoyan Slat40:47

       Um, I think th- like Germany or Switzerland, those, those kind of countries are pretty good.

    9. JRJoe Rogan40:51

       Really? And what do they do differently?

    10. BSBoyan Slat40:54

        Um, they just, uh, I think they just put more money in it, um, and, um, I think most of the waste in the US is actually being landfilled.

    11. JRJoe Rogan41:01

        Oh.

    12. BSBoyan Slat41:02

        Um, so, um, and, and what used to be recycled actually was sent to China, uh, but now, like, I think this year or last year, China said, "Well, no, we don't want your waste anymore." So, uh, so now I, I think there will be a lot of investments in, in new recycling facilities in, in the US.

    13. JRJoe Rogan41:17

        Now, how does that get recycled? Like say if you use this water bottle and you, uh, you empty it and then you throw it in the recycle container, what happens?

    14. BSBoyan Slat41:26

        Um, so yeah, I mean, very much depends on, on the location, but, um, to, to just use an example of, um, of, uh, where I live in back in Holland, uh, so they, um, yeah, they- you actually, uh, they collect the plastic separately. Then it goes to a, a facility where they sort the different kinds of plastic. Uh, they get out all the contaminants and, uh, make them into, to new pellets. And the, the problem there is really the, um, the lack of demand for recycled plastic because I think a lot of companies that, um, yeah, that build products because basically virgin, so new plastic is so cheap, they'd rather just, um, do what they're used to and, um, you know, not- they don't want to see any risks with their material, so they just choose for the safe option, the, the new kind of plastic. So I think if you want to do- if you want to promote recycling, uh, I would actually say well, promote the, the use of recycled material because as long as there's a demand, then, you know, the price will go up and, uh, then automatically more recycling would, would happen.

    15. JRJoe Rogan42:31

        Yeah, there's very little demand for recycled plastic. Like it's not something that you hear about on a regular basis, like people that are clamoring to get only recycled plastic.

    16. BSBoyan Slat42:40

        Yeah. And I think that, I think maybe that's, uh ...... that could be another nice side effect of what we do because, um, yeah, we, we can kind of make this sort of recycled plastic, uh, a bit more sexy-

    17. JRJoe Rogan42:51

        Yeah, I was gonna say sexy too.

    18. BSBoyan Slat42:52

        ... with, with the whole story, right? Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan42:52

        (laughs)

    20. BSBoyan Slat42:53

        Uh-

    21. JRJoe Rogan42:53

        Perfect word.

    22. BSBoyan Slat42:54

        Uh, yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan42:54

        Yeah. I think that's exactly what it is. Have you extended this line of thinking to other environmental concerns, like, uh, you know, p- o- pollution in terms of, like, chemical spills and pollution in the air and things along those lines?

    24. BSBoyan Slat43:08

        Yeah. Um, I, I have quite a few more ideas I would say. Uh, but yeah, I would really, it really wouldn't be good for The Ocean Cleanup if I would get distracted by that kind of thing.

    25. JRJoe Rogan43:19

        Well, I want you to farm those ideas off-

    26. BSBoyan Slat43:21

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan43:21

        ... to other people 'cause I think guys like you are insanely valuable. Like, that one person really did sort of germinate this seed and get this project moving. It's, it's very unusual. Outliers like yourself, you're a very humble guy, I'm sure you don't think of yourself as an outlier, but you most certainly are. Th- It's one of the most valuable things about civilization is the occasional person who steps out amongst the masses and does something pretty radical that almost everybody around them was aware was an issue.

    28. BSBoyan Slat43:50

        Hmm.

    29. JRJoe Rogan43:50

        And that's what you're doing.

    30. BSBoyan Slat43:51

        Yeah. I think there could be m- much more people that do things like that, just, uh, but-
15. 49:14 – 1:13:15

    Mindset and leadership: staying focused, iterative learning, and building a movement

    1. JRJoe Rogan49:14

       Y- you certainly won't be. W- one of the reasons why I'm asking this about you and what your ideas are with, uh, cleaning up other problems in the world is because there's millions of people listening to this. And there might be another Boyan out there who's a young kid, who says, "Well, why don't we do this?"

    2. BSBoyan Slat49:34

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan49:34

       Or, "How come this hasn't been done?" Or, "Why, why hasn't someone tried this?" And next thing you know-

    4. BSBoyan Slat49:39

       It'd be great.

    5. JRJoe Rogan49:39

       ... there's someone who's figuring out how to extract heavy metals out of the bottom of the ocean.

    6. BSBoyan Slat49:43

       Sure. I think, I think that would be, would be great. And, uh, yeah, I definitely welcome people to sort of just, just start and, um... Yeah, what kind of other thoughts? Well, I think another thing that's important when, when people try and solve problems is that they actually think about how to solve the problem. I think there's a lot of people that are very, um, yeah, very sort of well-meaning and they sort of want to get involved, but then what happens is that they, um, sort of think about, "So at least I can kind of make a dent," and then hopefully that dent sort of grows. But I think what's, what lot of people forget to do is that when they sort of start tackling a problem, they forget to sort of look at the whole problem first and see, well, sort of what's required to actually solve the whole problem and then, um, sort of reason your way back to, "Well, what's the first step that I need to take?" Because, you know, if you don't do that, well, then I think it will be very hard to kind of get the skill you need to actually sort of solve, solve the problem. Um, so and it's, yeah, I can imagine it can be quite intimidating to, to think about that. But, um, yeah, I think that would get us to much more sort of effective, um, solutions to sort of this sort of top-down problem-solving, as I would call it, instead of sort of this bot- bottom-up pro- sub- problem-solving.

    7. JRJoe Rogan51:06

       So when... Have you talked to anybody that also had an idea of how to clean up the Pacific Garbage Patch?

    8. BSBoyan Slat51:14

       Um, no. I've read about other proposals from the past, for sure.

    9. JRJoe Rogan51:19

       But no one has really actively pursued anything?

    10. BSBoyan Slat51:22

        Um, so I don't know. Well, I mean, the thing is, of course, all those other ideas were based on sort of boats and nets that would go fishing for plastic-

    11. JRJoe Rogan51:31

        Right.

    12. BSBoyan Slat51:31

        ... taking 79,000 years for, for just one patch. Yeah, so-

    13. JRJoe Rogan51:34

        There was one that I saw that looked like some gigantic floating thing. It looked like a spaceship, and it was kind of like moving across the surface, sort of skimming it. Is that one of those?

    14. BSBoyan Slat51:46

        That, that could be, actually. There's some artist impression of one of our fir- earlier concepts.

    15. JRJoe Rogan51:51

        Yeah, I think that's probably what it was.

    16. BSBoyan Slat51:52

        Like a silver sort of metric. Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan51:54

        Yeah. Is that what it was?

    18. BSBoyan Slat51:54

        That was, yeah, that, that was ours.

    19. JRJoe Rogan51:57

        So what other, I mean, if you don't mind talking about them, what other ideas have you had in terms of, like, cleaning things up?

    20. BSBoyan Slat52:03

        (laughs) Um, yeah, I'm kind of hesitant to, to joke about them. But, I mean, there's, there's plenty of other problems out there, so if you just think about sort of what other big problems are out there, they're probably...

    21. JRJoe Rogan52:15

        So wh- how about water pollution?

    22. BSBoyan Slat52:18

        Um, yeah. I, I usually, so what I do is actually I try and actively force these ideas out of my head b- just because sort of once you have an idea, it sort of starts to grow. And then, you know, sometimes, you know, with, with any project you're doing, there, there are these weeks that things don't go very well and sort of everything s- seems to be against you. And, um, in those weeks, it's always very tempting to start, uh, thinking about, "Well, I have this other idea," and, you know, and sort of s- starts to grow and you should be careful that it doesn't take over your entire mind. So-

    23. JRJoe Rogan52:50

        Right, I know what you're saying, getting too scattered and spread out and not focused.

    24. BSBoyan Slat52:52

        Yeah, so I think it's, it's of paramount importance for the, this, for The Ocean Cleanup to happen is that I stay 100% focused on, on what we do. If there's one mission, rid the oceans of plastic, and then that's what we're doing. Um, so what I usually do is I sort of write them down in, in my notebook and keep it next to my bed, and that's where it stays until, you know, maybe a few years from now. Um, so probably when you were to ask me, like, "So what's the top three ideas, other ideas that you have?" I wouldn't be able to, wouldn't even be able to, um, say them because, yeah, they're sort of out of my head, and I, I really try to keep it there. Um, but, uh, I mean, what's, what I can say is that they're all sort of technology-based, so they're all things that aren't possible now but I want to make possible in the future. Um, and they're sort of all, I think, connected in terms of negative side effects of, um, yeah, of civilization and trying to sort of, yeah, make sure that that doesn't backfire to us. Um, what I was, like to do is I try to think, like, well, if we sort of try to imagine a future in 10,000 years from now, um, how do we make sure that, well, uh, civilization is there, but zooming out, humanity is still there. And zooming further out, just, you know, general life can, can prosper. Um, and yeah, when I look at... If I try to extrapolate the, the current situation to the next 10,000 years, I don't think we're at that point yet, but I think it's, um...... yeah, it's a challenge that we'll have to s- solve.

    25. JRJoe Rogan54:31

        Well, it's certainly a challenge that we're gonna have to solve, and a, a challenge that I would hope more people like you tackle and start, uh, approaching these issues with this sort of 10,000-year mindset. Um, a, a big one, of course, with the ocean is overfishing.

    26. BSBoyan Slat54:48

        Yeah. For sure. Um, yeah. I mean, one thing, um, so you, right now you have quite a lot of excitement and a lot of startups in the area of, um, of artificial meat, right?

    27. JRJoe Rogan55:00

        Mm-hmm.

    28. BSBoyan Slat55:01

        Um, yeah. Why not artificial fish, fish meat, right? Um, because there seems to be this natural evolution from sort of wild hunting to farming to sort of this sort of more, um, lab-grown stuff that doesn't involve-

    29. JRJoe Rogan55:18

        Yeah.

    30. BSBoyan Slat55:19

        ... killing or, uh, all these resources being wasted. Um, and on land, we're kind of in s- stage two now, sort of going to stage three probably in next few decades. And, but if you look at fishing, it's still just hunting, right?

Episode duration: 1:14:32