Joe Rogan Experience #1107 - Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Four, three, two, one.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Four, three, two, one. Boom! And we're live. Gentlemen. Sam, Maajid, how are you?

   2. MNMaajid Nawaz0:08

      Good, thanks.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      Pleasure to meet you.

   4. MNMaajid Nawaz0:09

      Pleasure, Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      Thanks for, uh, coming here.

   6. SHSam Harris0:11

      Yeah. I'm re- very happy to get you guys together. I mean, that was, uh ... I've been kind of looking to do this for at least two years, and finally it's arrived.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      What's been your ultimate goal? Like what was it ...

   8. SHSam Harris0:20

      Well, he ... I mean, Maajid is just a superstar that needs more exposure. I mean, he's like-

   9. MNMaajid Nawaz0:25

      Don't listen to that.

   10. SHSam Harris0:26

       He should be running half of civilization. I mean, uh, he's, he's really a, just a fantastically ethical-

   11. MNMaajid Nawaz0:30

       That's one of those quotable things you can put on the back of a book, isn't it?

   12. SHSam Harris0:33

       Yeah. (laughs)

   13. MNMaajid Nawaz0:33

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       It's a good one.

   15. MNMaajid Nawaz0:34

       You should be running half of civilization.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       Yeah, but you should, shouldn't put that one. It has to be on the back of the book for sure.

   17. MNMaajid Nawaz0:37

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Definitely not on the front.

   19. SHSam Harris0:39

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       People read it and go, "Superstar? Who the fuck is this guy?"

   21. MNMaajid Nawaz0:41

       (laughs)

   22. SHSam Harris0:41

       I c- I can't blurb the book we wrote together, unfortunately, so ...

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Yeah.

   24. MNMaajid Nawaz0:45

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       That is an issue.

   26. MNMaajid Nawaz0:45

       You're too kind, Sam. Thank you. It's, uh, it's very generous of you.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Um, are y- are you, are you suing the Southern Poverty Law Center?

   28. SHSam Harris0:53

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       Is that what's going on?

   30. MNMaajid Nawaz0:54

       Yeah. I, I, in fact have an update for everybody 'cause, uh, you know, we crowdfunded, uh, a lot of the early costs for the case against the Southern Poverty Law Center.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   That is fascinating that…

   1. MNMaajid Nawaz15:00

      And, uh, upon my release, uh, I, I, I eventually, a good few months after my release, I, I had to leave the organization because I no longer believed in an ideology that I was once prepared to die for.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:10

      That is fascinating that the shift came about in jail speaking with assassins.

   3. MNMaajid Nawaz15:15

      Yeah. Among many others, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      That... I mean, that is really incredible. You would think that most people think that when someone goes to jail, usually whatever criminality that they have in them is cemented.

   5. MNMaajid Nawaz15:25

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      It's... and hardened.

   7. MNMaajid Nawaz15:26

      Yeah. I'm, I, I don't know why mine is an exceptional case because most people, you're right, whether you look at Sayyid Qutb, who's known as the founding father of modern day jihadism, he started off like me, a non-terrorist Islamist, but in Egypt's jails, in fact, the very jail I was held in, he was tortured and he ended up becoming the godfather of modern day terrorism, um, through his book Milestones or Ma'alim at-Tariq, Ma'alim fi't-Tariq in Arabic. And yet that... i- in my case, for whatever reason, you know, it... I kind of went that bit further to question everything I believed in, um, but that's not normal. M- in most cases when you torture people in jail, i- it ends up hardening and ossifying that ideology and people become as angry as, you know, they become the monster that they were seeking to defeat.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:11

      So you get out of jail, what do you do then?

   9. MNMaajid Nawaz16:13

      So I, I, uh, left the group in 2007, and by 2008 in January, so I finished my degree, I had one year left of my undergraduate degree. I, I graduated, I did my master's at the London School of Economics in political theory. And while doing the master's, set up Quilliam. And Quilliam, uh, we, we bill as the world's first counter-extremism organization. It was meant to be, uh, we believe it is, bringing us back to the SPLC's (laughs) allegation, a Muslim response to extremism from people that have lived it and been through it. Um, my co-founders were Islamists themselves who changed like me, uh, Muslims born and raised, uh, come from the community to have a community-based response, a Muslim response to this growing problem of extremism. And this was 10 years ago, and of course, ISIS emerged since then, only demonstrating why this kind of response was needed. And so for the Southern Poverty Law Center to designate somebody with my background, with that trajectory, with somebody who was prepared to die for this cause, um, uh, uh, and s- somebody who wanted to address these problems as a Muslim, uh, to call for reform for the good of my communities as opposed to against them. You know, at the end of the day, it can only benefit Muslim communities if extremism is put back in its box. Um, for them to then list someone like me as an anti-Muslim extremist, it, it just really does, I think, shine a light on the true absurdity of the situation we find ourselves in.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:33

       Uh, absurdity and the, the lack of real investigation or backing up their claims with actual facts-

   11. MNMaajid Nawaz17:41

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:42

       ... and information, and that brings me to your story with Charles Murray and Vox and-

   13. MNMaajid Nawaz17:46

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:47

       ... Ezra Klein that-

   15. SHSam Harris17:47

       Well, well, let's linger here for a moment.

   16. MNMaajid Nawaz17:49

       Sure.

   17. SHSam Harris17:49

       It's, it's the same problem, but not only is it a lack of investigation, but when it gets pointed out, I mean, I forgot the, the guy's name at the SPLC who was quarterbacking this, but it wasn't Morris Dees, but it was someone high up. Mark Potok or-

   18. MNMaajid Nawaz18:02

       Uh, uh, the, the, the CEO, uh, something Cohen I think is the, the, the, uh...

   19. SHSam Harris18:06

       I for- it's... yeah, I thought it was Mark Potok. Anyways, he's listed in the... he's named in The Atlantic article that first put this on our radar, but he... they just double down. I mean, the, the, the error cannot be pointed out clearly enough.... to trigger an- I mean, mu- much less an apology, a, uh, a- any m- modulation of, of the claim. They just, people just double down in the face of, uh, uh, uh, obvious counter-evidence. And that's, it's, it's just not about a sincere engagement with the problem. And there's, and there's this, and there's so many variables here that make it, make it a really toxic environment. But one is that the l- the, the locus of concern is never the individual. It is the group, it's the tribe. And so you can s- it, it's like, uh, uh, they'll sacrifice any number of individuals to make the political case they wanna make. Uh, so they, they don't, they're completely unrepentant when they're shown to get it wrong. And so in, in your case and in Ayaan's case, it's just such a gr- it's such a, a grievous moral lapse because not only is it, is the attack on you illegitimate, it actually raises your se- your security concerns.

   20. MNMaajid Nawaz19:14

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SHSam Harris19:14

       And it, it, uh, it becomes a reference point for journalists who are confused, who can't follow the plot or don't have the time to, to fact-check everything. Uh, uh, it makes you radioactive from the point of view of mainstream journalists because either they, they go to the Southern Po- Poverty L- L- L- Law Center site to figure out who's worth talking to, and they see a page, uh, where you're listed as a anti-Muslim extremist along with people who bear very little resemblance to you ideologically because there are probably a few people on there who, who could be described as anti-Muslim extremists. And, you know, the, here are the 10 people you don't need to talk to on, uh, about this problem. Whereas you're actually, uh, one of the most valuable voices, I mean, objectively, uh, uh, one of the most valuable voices, but probably, uh, you know, I can probably count on two fingers, you know, uh, you know, anyone who would rival your voice on this topic.

   22. MNMaajid Nawaz20:04

       I-

   23. SHSam Harris20:05

       Uh, so it's, it's just mind-boggling.

   24. MNMaajid Nawaz20:06

       I- it's very difficult- Try to keep this mic closer to your chin. Yeah. It's very difficult. You, you, you can swing it toward you, if you want to.

   25. SHSam Harris20:10

       Yeah, I can swing it to ... So it's very difficult because, um, I can't ex- I can't fully explain to anybody what it feels like to have lived an entire life, from roughly the age of 14, being consumed by this issue of Muslims in the West and this question. And originally getting it, answering it in one way, and then still being consumed by the topic, answering it in a different way, as I now do. I can't describe to anybody how much emotionally the toll that it takes to have your whole life, h- have defined your whole life by trying to answer this question. And because you care for it, because this is a question that c- concerns you. When I joined the Islamist group I did, I was wrong and adopted some really nefarious ideas, but did so because I gave a damn and cared for a genocide that I saw unfolding and desperately wanted a solution. So even when I became an Islamist, I did so out of care and love and concern for what I believed was my community under attack. So to have a bunch of people come along and say that I am anti the very community that I've, uh, believe of, I have fought for all my life, you know, and have def- and my life has been consumed and defined by this, it really is taking the one thing away from somebody that they have ... I mean, uh, (laughs) I went to jail for this thing. Yeah.

   26. MNMaajid Nawaz21:31

       I have ... People have died in front of my eyes from their torture wounds in prison because of this thing. To have someone completely ignorant in that way to, to, to deprive me of having the, of being able to claim that I have stood for my community, but by instead saying that I'm anti that community, it really does kind of make you feel like crap, Joe. (laughs)

   27. SHSam Harris21:51

       When, when did this start happening, this mo- the moral panic that you've constantly discussed and the, these, the flippant sort of accusations without real, any real, s- solid, objective reasoning behind calling someone like you or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who's the victim of female genital mutilation, to say that she's an anti-Muslim, is l- that, that she's Islamophobic, is-

   28. MNMaajid Nawaz22:14

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   29. SHSam Harris22:15

       It seems to me it's almost insane. But it seems to me to be prevalent. This is something that is a, it's, it's a common sentiment today that I don't recall ever seeing anything like this one or two decades ago.

   30. MNMaajid Nawaz22:28

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Oh, that's funny. I…

   1. MNMaajid Nawaz30:00

      you know, 'cause then two years later, he reaches out to me and he says, "I think we can try again. You know, d- are you willing to have a conversation with me?" And, and I hadn't originally remembered it was the same guy. (laughs) So-

   2. SHSam Harris30:10

      Oh, that's funny. I got my foot in the door just because you didn't know who I was.

   3. MNMaajid Nawaz30:12

      'Cause I didn't realize it. (laughs)

   4. SHSam Harris30:14

      (laughs)

   5. MNMaajid Nawaz30:14

      And then we had this conversation which it's a lesson for me 'cause we had this conversation, uh, it's, it's, it's called Islam and the Future of Tolerance. It's, it's become a book, right? With- and published by Harvard University Press. We had this conversation that became a book that's been made into a film which I think any, what, couple of weeks now we're hearing some news on that?

   6. SHSam Harris30:29

      Yeah, I don't know when that's coming out but-

   7. MNMaajid Nawaz30:30

      Yeah.

   8. SHSam Harris30:30

      So, we did a s- a lecture tour of Australia and the people who organized that sh- made a documentary that we did

   9. MNMaajid Nawaz30:38

      But therein lies this lesson to your question and, and, and that is that I am somebody that-

   10. ... didn't engage with him on the substance of his question, but actually-

   11. SHSam Harris30:46

       Hmm.

   12. MNMaajid Nawaz30:46

       ... fired a misfire, an emotional misfire, on, on, on, on, on what was really questioning, and, uh, his motives for asking the question, rather than actually addressing, addressing the points he was making. And I think that when I ... Because I didn't remember who he was, I then started the con- conversation anew-

   13. SHSam Harris31:04

       Ah.

   14. MNMaajid Nawaz31:04

       ... without the memory of my original judgment on him.

   15. SHSam Harris31:06

       Hmm.

   16. MNMaajid Nawaz31:07

       And the conversation went really well. (laughs)

   17. SHSam Harris31:09

       (laughs)

   18. MNMaajid Nawaz31:09

       So we've got to somehow be able to divorce ourselves from that background.

   19. SHSam Harris31:11

       That can happen. I mean, it can be done. It's just it take, it takes people of strong character to, to try to like, ver- abandon all preconceived notions from the past-

   20. MNMaajid Nawaz31:21

       Hmm.

   21. SHSam Harris31:21

       ... conversation and just start fresh.

   22. MNMaajid Nawaz31:23

       Hmm.

   23. SHSam Harris31:23

       Yeah, I ca- uh, unfortunately this example of, of a kind of a signal success has, has caused me to, uh, in the end kind of misspend a lot of energy just assuming that I can do this again.

   24. MNMaajid Nawaz31:35

       Try and replicate it. Yeah.

   25. SHSam Harris31:35

       I can't ... I keep thinking, I, I, I keep walking into another situation thinking this is possible.

   26. MNMaajid Nawaz31:39

       Is that why you deleted Twitter? (laughs)

   27. SHSam Harris31:41

       Well, I, yeah, yeah. It's off my phone, yes. Um-

   28. MNMaajid Nawaz31:44

       So you haven't deleted your account, have you? Just-

   29. SHSam Harris31:45

       No, I'm still on Twitter, but I, I, I will, uh, based on this recent episode, I will use it differently.

   30. MNMaajid Nawaz31:50

       I am fascinated by people and their struggles with social media.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      so guilty that any discussion whatsoever about race can't be held unless you repeatedly bring up all the instances of racism and suppression that... And discrimination that that group has suffered from.

   2. MNMaajid Nawaz45:13

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      It's like, you can't... It doesn't sti- exist as a statistic island.

   4. SHSam Harris45:17

      No.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:17

      You mu- you have to bring everything in together. If you don't do that, that's where their protest comes from. And I think that was one of the things that I got from your conversation with Ezra Klein.

   6. SHSam Harris45:26

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:26

      He wasn't willing to just discuss what's the implication of these issues and completely dismissed this, this fact that Asian people score far better. They're, they're... This is not a, this is not an advocacy for white supremacy.

   8. MNMaajid Nawaz45:38

      But it's almost as if they fear that by, by conceding on the data, it's almost as if they fear that the implication must necessarily follow that the policy will also be supremacist in that way.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:48

      Hmm. I wonder. Um, I honestly think that what we talked about before is a big part of it.

   10. MNMaajid Nawaz45:52

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       This ideological, uh, idea sport and that they're just volleying back. I don't think they're willing to take... I think one of the real strengths of character that you demonstrate in a debate or any discussion of facts is when uncomfortable truths rear their ugly head that are counter to your, uh, your personal position.

   12. MNMaajid Nawaz46:10

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:10

       You have to be able to go, "You got a really good point."

   14. MNMaajid Nawaz46:12

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       "You've got a good point. There's something to that. I see what you're saying, okay. This is what my concern would be." And th- this would be a rational, real conversation.

   16. MNMaajid Nawaz46:19

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       "This is what I would worry about." And then you would, I'm sure, say, "Absolutely, I would worry about that as well," and then you would have this sort of a discussion.

   18. MNMaajid Nawaz46:26

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       I didn't get that from that conversation you had.

   20. MNMaajid Nawaz46:29

       No, no.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:29

       I got ping-pong. I got buh-bup, buh-bup, buh-bup, buh-bup.

   22. MNMaajid Nawaz46:31

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:32

       I got this rallying back and forth of ideas rather than two human beings not digging their heels into the sand, just trying to look at the ideas and look at the statistics and look at these studies for what they are.

   24. MNMaajid Nawaz46:45

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       And look at Charles Murray and what he's gone through and... Should we be able to examine these statistical anomalies? Should we be able to examine athletic superiority? Should we be able to examine, uh, superiority that A- Asians show in mathematics and a lot of the sciences? Should we? Should we be able to or should we just dig our heads in the sand? Should we just let things sort themselves out and quietly ignore all the reality?

   26. SHSam Harris47:07

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:07

       I don't know.

   28. SHSam Harris47:08

       Well, so, uh, I should say that I am... I, I certainly understand people's fear that if you... That anyone who would go looking for racial difference is very likely motiva- motivated by something unethical or unsavory, right? So like, like you, you could imagine, you know, white supremacists being, being, uh, uh, su- super enamored of this, the possibility that these data exist.

   29. MNMaajid Nawaz47:32

       They are.

   30. SHSam Harris47:32

       Yes.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:11:43

   That's literally the summary…

   1. SHSam Harris1:00:00

      line." But that's v- literally what happened.

   2. MNMaajid Nawaz1:00:02

      That's literally the summary of the situation.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:03

      (laughs) That's literally what happened. This is a conversation that I had with a woman, uh, online, is one o- one... During this whole thing. Uh, she said, she... This person who had turned into a woman has always been a woman, and I said, "But she was a man for 30 years." She goes, "No, she's always been a woman." I go, "Even when she had sex with a woman and fathered a kid?"And she says yes-

   4. MNMaajid Nawaz1:00:25

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

      ... even then. I go, "Well, we're done."

   6. MNMaajid Nawaz1:00:27

      Yeah.

   7. SHSam Harris1:00:27

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

      'Cause you're just talking nonsense. This is-

   9. SHSam Harris1:00:28

      Yeah, that's i- that's ideology can- that's ideology-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:30

       Ideology. Exactly.

   11. SHSam Harris1:00:31

       ... covering the facts as they are-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:32

       Well, it's-

   13. SHSam Harris1:00:32

       ... is that she had a male physique and a male body.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

       She- this person who's arguing with me wants to claim this moral high ground of being the most progressive. And they're always looking to step on top of anybody who's less progressive than them and complain- and, and proclaim superiority. And this is the ideological sport.

   15. MNMaajid Nawaz1:00:49

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       This is the idea sport that, that y- you see with- when people are playing just ping pong with ideas.

   17. MNMaajid Nawaz1:00:54

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:54

       They're not listening.

   19. MNMaajid Nawaz1:00:55

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:55

       You, you, you need to listen to experts in, in th- when you're- especially when you're talking about martial arts.

   21. MNMaajid Nawaz1:01:01

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       There is a- there- the, the difference is so profound-

   23. MNMaajid Nawaz1:01:04

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

       ... and the results are so critical because you're talking about a sport where the objective goal- the, the goal is clear. It's very clear. Beat the fuck outta-

   25. MNMaajid Nawaz1:01:14

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

       ... the other person in front of you.

   27. MNMaajid Nawaz1:01:15

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:15

       So anything that would give you an advantage in beating the fuck outta that person should be really looked at very carefully-

   29. MNMaajid Nawaz1:01:21

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

       ... and not th- thrown through the, the lens of this progressive ideological filter that we're going through right now 'cause that's, that's what it is. I mean, that's how people are looking at it.

Episode duration: 1:58:03