Joe Rogan Experience #1107 - Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz

Joe Rogan 0:02 Four, three, two, one. Boom! And we're live. Gentlemen. Sam, Maajid, how are you?

Maajid Nawaz 0:08 Good, thanks.

Joe Rogan 0:08 Pleasure to meet you.

Maajid Nawaz 0:09 Pleasure, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:09 Thanks for, uh, coming here.

Sam Harris 0:11 Yeah. I'm re- very happy to get you guys together. I mean, that was, uh ... I've been kind of looking to do this for at least two years, and finally it's arrived.

Joe Rogan 0:18 What's been your ultimate goal? Like what was it ...

Sam Harris 0:20 Well, he ... I mean, Maajid is just a superstar that needs more exposure. I mean, he's like-

Maajid Nawaz 0:25 Don't listen to that.

Sam Harris 0:26 He should be running half of civilization. I mean, uh, he's, he's really a, just a fantastically ethical-

Maajid Nawaz 0:30 That's one of those quotable things you can put on the back of a book, isn't it?

Sam Harris 0:33 Yeah. (laughs)

Maajid Nawaz 0:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:33 It's a good one.

Maajid Nawaz 0:34 You should be running half of civilization.

Joe Rogan 0:34 Yeah, but you should, shouldn't put that one. It has to be on the back of the book for sure.

Maajid Nawaz 0:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:37 Definitely not on the front.

Sam Harris 0:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:39 People read it and go, "Superstar? Who the fuck is this guy?"

Maajid Nawaz 0:41 (laughs)

Sam Harris 0:41 I c- I can't blurb the book we wrote together, unfortunately, so ...

Joe Rogan 0:44 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 0:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:45 That is an issue.

Maajid Nawaz 0:45 You're too kind, Sam. Thank you. It's, uh, it's very generous of you.

Joe Rogan 0:48 Um, are y- are you, are you suing the Southern Poverty Law Center?

Sam Harris 0:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:53 Is that what's going on?

Maajid Nawaz 0:54 Yeah. I, I, in fact have an update for everybody 'cause, uh, you know, we crowdfunded, uh, a lot of the early costs for the case against the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Joe Rogan 1:02 What, what did they do? What is it, what is it based on?

Maajid Nawaz 1:03 Yeah. Let me back up a bit.

Joe Rogan 1:04 Please.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04 Um, once upon a time, uh, yours truly, a British Muslim, uh, of Pakistani origin was listed in the United Kingdom on the Thomson Reuters World-Check database under a category red terrorism designation, while at the same time being listed across the Atlantic in the United States by the Southern P- Poverty Law Center as an anti-Muslim extremist. So I was both a Muslim terrorist and an anti-Muslim extremist according to two separate lists. And of course, that speaks to some of the polarization in our times, in how irrational this conversation around extremism, Islam integration, Muslims in the West has become. I sued Thomson Reuters World-Check, the database. This database is no joke. It's like HSBC and, and many, many other banks use this database, uh, for background checks on whether clients can have a bank account with them. So as a result of, for example, Thomson Reuters and their database, uh, Quilliam, which is a counter-extremism organization I founded 10 years ago, had its bank account shut down in the United States because of the Thomson Reuters World-Check database system that HSBC subscribes to. Anyway, we sued them. They paid damages. They issued an apology, and they, uh, uh, uh, re- took my name off this, uh, terrorism designation list they have on their World-Check database.

Sam Harris 2:26 Uh, Maajid, I think you ... Maybe you should back up further and just give the, your, kind of your short form bio in terms of wh- why would you ever be on a terrorist watch list.

Maajid Nawaz 2:34 Sure. Sure. I- I- I'll do that.

Sam Harris 2:35 Yeah, sure.

Maajid Nawaz 2:35 Um, but at the same time, the Southern Poverty Law Center had, had listed me, as I said, as an anti-Muslim extremist, so we are also, uh, taking legal action, uh, against them. And, um, I- I will get to your point, but I think ... just want to say that the ... I've just, uh, held a law firm on retainer, Clare Locke, and they were the ones that sued the Rolling Stone magazine for that college rape campus rape scandal.

Joe Rogan 2:55 UVA?

Maajid Nawaz 2:55 Yep, that's right.

Joe Rogan 2:56 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 2:56 Successfully got, uh, won that case. Clare Locke, which is, uh, an announcement made here exclusively with you, no one else knows this yet, we have retained Clare Locke. Uh, they are writing to the Southern Poverty Law Center as we speak. Um, I think they've got wind of it, the Southern Poverty Law Center. As of, I think either yesterday or the day before, they've removed the entire list that's been up there for two years.

Sam Harris 3:17 Oh, nice.

Maajid Nawaz 3:17 They've removed the entire list, which also had Ayaan Hirsi Ali on it, um, and it's no longer available on their website.

Joe Rogan 3:24 Now, is their logic that if you're a critic of Islam, of radical fundamentalist Islam, that you are somehow or another a racist extremist?

Maajid Nawaz 3:33 Uh, that ... So that's pretty much what they've said. If you criticize Islam, um, Ayaan and myself who have come from within the community-

Joe Rogan 3:41 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 3:41 ... who've had that experience, that somehow that makes us anti-Muslim. Um, th- there are a number of logical errors involved in that logical leap that they've made.

Joe Rogan 3:50 Do they have any distinction? Is there, is there anything that they write that sort of points to why they would say that?

Maajid Nawaz 3:56 Uh, one of them, honestly, the reasons they listed, one of them was that I had a, a bachelor party in a strip club a year before I got married.

Joe Rogan 4:03 W- that makes you an anti-Muslim extremist?

Maajid Nawaz 4:06 That was one of the reasons listed.

Joe Rogan 4:08 Why? (laughs) Oh, the, the 9/11 hijack- jackers weren't at the strip cl- strip club on 9/11, right?

Maajid Nawaz 4:14 (laughs) Sorry. (laughs) That was ...

Joe Rogan 4:16 So th- that w- that, that real- they really listed that?

Maajid Nawaz 4:18 They actually listed that, which is part of the reason why we can prove malice, because what has that got to do with anything?

Joe Rogan 4:22 That's-

Maajid Nawaz 4:23 Uh, it's a-

Joe Rogan 4:23 But that doesn't ... Yeah. That doesn't make any sense.

Maajid Nawaz 4:25 Yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 4:26 So that was th- that was a primary reason?

Maajid Nawaz 4:28 It was one of the three main reasons they originally listed.

Joe Rogan 4:30 What are the other two?

Maajid Nawaz 4:30 And another one was a- again, false. Uh, they claimed that I had called for the criminalization of the face veil for Muslim women in the West, which wasn't true. I had called for a policy to be adopted where in banks and airports where you're not allowed to wear a motorcycle helmet, you also shouldn't be allowed to cover your ha- face in the name of religion. Which is very different to calling for the criminalization per se of the face veil. That's like saying you're not allowed to wear a motorcycle helmet in a bank, so I believe in the criminalization of motorcycle helmets. It's just absurd.

Joe Rogan 5:00 Right. (laughs) Yeah, it's ridiculous.

Maajid Nawaz 5:01 Um, so it was a mischaracterization of my, um, opinion. The article-

Joe Rogan 5:05 So that's two.

Maajid Nawaz 5:05 Yep. And the other one, uh, they, uh, th- the reason they ... I can't even remember, 'cause they kept changing their reasons. The actual website has been, um ... we've got the archive and, and it's been ... they've been changing it each time people have been pointing out the stupidity of their allegations.

Joe Rogan 5:19 So why do they ex- what is the Southern Poverty Law Center's-

Sam Harris 5:21 Well, I mean, this is a painful irony because if you roll back the clock now, you know, 20 or some odd years, their reasons to exist were great. I mean, th- this was the, the flagship organization that was suing the KKK and-

Maajid Nawaz 5:35 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 5:36 ... you know, Sovereign Citizens and just the, the far right, you know, white nationalist, Christian nationalist movements in the US. And in, in some cases, to great effect. And their, and their concern obviously about, you know, extremist hate groups in the US was totally valid. And I mean, it was, it became ... I mean, now, now that we see how morally confused they are, people have been shining a light on them, and they, they've, they're this bloated organization that's been taking in way too much money. And they're, I mean, it's not ... it, it suffers from other-... signs of, of, uh, corruption or, or conflicts of interest. But back in the day, you know, Morris Dees was, you know, bringing the KKK to court and bankrupting their various chapters, and that all ... that looked fantastic. And now, the social justice warrior, moral panic, uh, moral stupidity virus has gotten into their brains, and they can't differentiate someone like Maajid from a right-wing Christian neo-Nazi, uh, uh, hater of Islam, right? Or hater of, of, of-

Maajid Nawaz 6:39 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 6:39 ... you know, people from the Middle East. Uh, and, and so it is with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. And now, the... ironically, you're off the website, now I'm on it. I think I'm on it in a, in a far more transitory way. But the, the, the article that was written about my podcast with Charles Murray by Vox hit the Southern Poverty Law Center hate watch page. And so there you had articles about neo-Nazi groups, articles about the Austin bomber, and then me and, and my podcast with Charles Murray.

Maajid Nawaz 7:07 I definitely want to talk about that.

Sam Harris 7:09 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 7:09 But I want to give people your background first.

Sam Harris 7:11 Sure.

Maajid Nawaz 7:12 The reason why you were on the list in the UK in, in the first place had to do with your actual background. Mm, mm, mm. So, so I was born and raised in Essex in the United Kingdom, and I came of age in what I now refer to as the bad old days of racism in the United Kingdom. Much has changed since then for the good. But in those days, uh, there were, uh, serious, um, (smacks lips) uh, uh, uh, cases of violent racism that I faced. Uh, hammer attacks, machete attacks by actual neo-Nazis. I mean, I've grown up... This is the irony of this Southern Poverty Law Center listing. I've grown up fighting neo-Nazis on the streets, and they've been attacking me with hammers and machetes because of the color of my skin. And you got a bunch of white guys in Alabama, uh, designating me in the same breath as they would designate, designate these neo-Nazis. But that ... when I grew up and having that experience being, um, falsely arrested by Essex Police on a number of occasions, profiled while the genocide in Bosnia was unfolding against Muslims in Bosnia. Um, I often say to an American audience when I'm speaking about this, we are now here with you on the West Coast in this beautiful new studio you have. Congratulations.

Sam Harris 8:15 Thank you.

Maajid Nawaz 8:16 Um, and imagine a genocide was unfolding on the East Coast against a, a group of people with whom you identified, and even if it's just on a human level, human beings. But, you know, even within that, a community identification would impact you in a way. For example, if you defined yourself as, uh, Jewish and there was a genocide against Jews on the other side of this very continent, of this very country, how it would impact you on, on the West Coast. Um, well, Sarajevo, Sarajevo from London, it takes us less time to fly from London to Bosnia than it does from New York to LA. And so it really had a profound impact on Muslims across Europe when that genocide was unfolding and, and things were never the same again. It radicalized an entire generation. Of course, ideology had a lot to do with that, but the anger originally came from the genocide. So at the age of 16, what with the, the domestic racism and the, uh, uh, situation in, in Bosnia unfolding as it did, I joined, uh, Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is a, uh, uh, a non-terrorist, still legal in America and in Britain and across Europe, uh, Islamist organization. It was the first of the global Islamist organizations that aspired to resurrect the notion of a caliphate, uh, which we've subsequently seen to a great damaging effect in the form of ISIS's caliphate. Um, and, uh, their method of coming to power was by infiltrating militaries in Muslim majority countries, uh, recruiting army officers, and then instigating military coups. Whether that be in Turkey, in Pakistan, in Egypt, these are the countries they, they targeted. Um, and their aim would be to then, through the military coup, set up this caliphate, which would then be an expansionist caliphate, uh, and would conquer the world. I mean, that's ... It sounds crazy. That's what they believe, and that's what they're very, very serious and intent on bringing about. And now people, when I say that, believe me, 'cause they've seen the ISIS experiment unfold. But I joined a group that sought to do that, um, through non-terroristic means, (smacks lips) at the age of 16. I ended, ended up on the leadership of that organization in the UK, uh, ended up co-founding that group in Pakistan in 1999, where I went ... I left the UK, went to Pakistan, um, was among the first, the vanguard of British Pakistani members that went out there to set the group up. Uh, there've been about three or four, uh, coup plots in Pakistan since, and army officers have been arrested for being members of this group and, and many of them still in jail. Um, I spent a year in Pakistan, went back, um, while studying for my degree in the University of London. Uh, would fly Monday ... uh, would fly on Saturdays and Sundays to Copenhagen in Denmark. I co-founded the Danish Pakistani chapter of this group. And then the third year of my degree, 'cause I was doing law and Arabic, um, uh, resulted in me having to go to an Arab country for the language year. And so I chose Egypt. And, uh, a day before the 9/11 attacks in 2001, I ended up in Egypt. I went to Alexandria, enrolled in the University of Alexandria to study for the year of, uh, Arabic language, which was the third year of my degree. Um, of course, 9/11 happened and the climate changed. The security climate changed all over the world, something we didn't know about nor predicted.

Maajid Nawaz 11:17 And on the 1st of, uh, um, April 2002, my house in Alexandria was raided by the Egyptian State Security. I was blindfolded. My hands were tied behind my back. I was then driven through the desert into Cairo to the dungeon of the State Security headquarters, um, in a building known as, uh, as, uh, Al Jihaz, which was the main headquarters of Aman al-Dawlah, this internal state security. Uh, we were held in the dungeons there for four days, and they electrocuted, um, most of the prisoners that they had there. Um, tortured them, interrogated them. On the fourth day, I was taken to a, a prison known as Mazrah Tora, uh, in Cairo, um, put into solitary confinement for about three and a half months, then charged, eventually sentenced to five years as a political prisoner under the Egyptian Emergency Law, um, and served my full sentence there in Egypt. Uh, eventually left prison in 2006 and returned to the UK.

Sam Harris 12:13 So, so did, did Amnesty In- International get you out at all? Or, or did they just-

Maajid Nawaz 12:17 No. They only cam-

Sam Harris 12:18 ... took an interest in you when you were coming out?

Maajid Nawaz 12:19 So they campaigned for my release, and-

Sam Harris 12:21 Right.

Maajid Nawaz 12:21 ... uh, nobody got me out because I had to finish my full prison sentence.

Sam Harris 12:23 Right.

Maajid Nawaz 12:24 Um, but a- what changed me and, and led to me to be the man that sits before you today is, you're right, Sam, uh, uh, Amnesty's, uh, adoption of me and, and, and a few others in the case as prisoners of conscience, and they took the very brave and bold step, now looking back at it, because keep in mind the context here, th- this is Bush was president, Tony Blair was prime minister, and we were in the thick of the war on terror. We were in the middle of it. And Amnesty, Amnesty comes along and says, "We disagree with everything this guy stands for, but they don't believe in using violence to bring their caliphate about, and so we will defend their right to say stupid things, and they shouldn't be in prison. They certainly shouldn't have been tortured for it." So, um, Amnesty adopted us as prisoners of conscience. And I was 24 years old at the time, by the way, so everything I've just described to you happened to me up until the age of 24 when I was imprisoned. And it was the first time in my relatively young life, I'm 40 now, right? And, uh, I had never been defended by any mainstream, pillar of mainstream society in that way before. Nobody had spoken out for me, and that had a, a real huge kind of emotional impact on my psyche. Um, I've said in my, um, autobiography that where the heart leads, the mind can follow. And so I was now willing to consider alternatives because of Amnesty's work campaigning for me. And so I spent the next four years in prison, uh, reading, uh, rereading Orwell, uh, every one of his, uh, books, reading Tolkien, reading classic English literature, studying Islamic theology, really trying to understand the world around me. Um, and I had four years to do so, and I spent four years debating and discussing with, um, pretty much the founders of Egypt's main jihadist organizations who were in jail with me in the same prison, including the assassins or the former president, Anwar El-Sadat, who had been killed in 1981 because of his peace deal with Israel. And his assassins were in jail with me and they'd been in prison longer than I'd been alive. And so they had some collective years of wisdom between them, and most of those jihadist prisoners I was in jail with had over the course of those years two decades and more, changed their views and reformed. They were still conservative religious Muslims, something which I'm not, um, and I never... I don't claim to be in my, in my work at the moment. Um, but they were still religious Muslims, but they were no longer, um, extremists and they were no longer what I call Islamists, people that sought to implement their version of Islam over society. And so they, uh... in four years of constant debate and discussion with them, um, people that I knew had more wisdom than me, they've been in jail for longer than I'd been alive. Um, I, my views began slowly changing. I read a lot of the books they wrote about changing their own views and why they changed. And, uh, upon my release, uh, I, I, I eventually, a good few months after my release, I, I had to leave the organization because I no longer believed in an ideology that I was once prepared to die for.

Joe Rogan 15:10 That is fascinating that the shift came about in jail speaking with assassins.

Maajid Nawaz 15:15 Yeah. Among many others, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:17 That... I mean, that is really incredible. You would think that most people think that when someone goes to jail, usually whatever criminality that they have in them is cemented.

Maajid Nawaz 15:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:25 It's... and hardened.

Maajid Nawaz 15:26 Yeah. I'm, I, I don't know why mine is an exceptional case because most people, you're right, whether you look at Sayyid Qutb, who's known as the founding father of modern day jihadism, he started off like me, a non-terrorist Islamist, but in Egypt's jails, in fact, the very jail I was held in, he was tortured and he ended up becoming the godfather of modern day terrorism, um, through his book Milestones or Ma'alim at-Tariq, Ma'alim fi't-Tariq in Arabic. And yet that... i- in my case, for whatever reason, you know, it... I kind of went that bit further to question everything I believed in, um, but that's not normal. M- in most cases when you torture people in jail, i- it ends up hardening and ossifying that ideology and people become as angry as, you know, they become the monster that they were seeking to defeat.

Joe Rogan 16:11 So you get out of jail, what do you do then?

Maajid Nawaz 16:13 So I, I, uh, left the group in 2007, and by 2008 in January, so I finished my degree, I had one year left of my undergraduate degree. I, I graduated, I did my master's at the London School of Economics in political theory. And while doing the master's, set up Quilliam. And Quilliam, uh, we, we bill as the world's first counter-extremism organization. It was meant to be, uh, we believe it is, bringing us back to the SPLC's (laughs) allegation, a Muslim response to extremism from people that have lived it and been through it. Um, my co-founders were Islamists themselves who changed like me, uh, Muslims born and raised, uh, come from the community to have a community-based response, a Muslim response to this growing problem of extremism. And this was 10 years ago, and of course, ISIS emerged since then, only demonstrating why this kind of response was needed. And so for the Southern Poverty Law Center to designate somebody with my background, with that trajectory, with somebody who was prepared to die for this cause, um, uh, uh, and s- somebody who wanted to address these problems as a Muslim, uh, to call for reform for the good of my communities as opposed to against them. You know, at the end of the day, it can only benefit Muslim communities if extremism is put back in its box. Um, for them to then list someone like me as an anti-Muslim extremist, it, it just really does, I think, shine a light on the true absurdity of the situation we find ourselves in.

Joe Rogan 17:33 Uh, absurdity and the, the lack of real investigation or backing up their claims with actual facts-

Maajid Nawaz 17:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:42 ... and information, and that brings me to your story with Charles Murray and Vox and-

Maajid Nawaz 17:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:47 ... Ezra Klein that-

Sam Harris 17:47 Well, well, let's linger here for a moment.

Maajid Nawaz 17:49 Sure.

Sam Harris 17:49 It's, it's the same problem, but not only is it a lack of investigation, but when it gets pointed out, I mean, I forgot the, the guy's name at the SPLC who was quarterbacking this, but it wasn't Morris Dees, but it was someone high up. Mark Potok or-

Maajid Nawaz 18:02 Uh, uh, the, the, the CEO, uh, something Cohen I think is the, the, the, uh...

Sam Harris 18:06 I for- it's... yeah, I thought it was Mark Potok. Anyways, he's listed in the... he's named in The Atlantic article that first put this on our radar, but he... they just double down. I mean, the, the, the error cannot be pointed out clearly enough.... to trigger an- I mean, mu- much less an apology, a, uh, a- any m- modulation of, of the claim. They just, people just double down in the face of, uh, uh, uh, obvious counter-evidence. And that's, it's, it's just not about a sincere engagement with the problem. And there's, and there's this, and there's so many variables here that make it, make it a really toxic environment. But one is that the l- the, the locus of concern is never the individual. It is the group, it's the tribe. And so you can s- it, it's like, uh, uh, they'll sacrifice any number of individuals to make the political case they wanna make. Uh, so they, they don't, they're completely unrepentant when they're shown to get it wrong. And so in, in your case and in Ayaan's case, it's just such a gr- it's such a, a grievous moral lapse because not only is it, is the attack on you illegitimate, it actually raises your se- your security concerns.

Maajid Nawaz 19:14 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 19:14 And it, it, uh, it becomes a reference point for journalists who are confused, who can't follow the plot or don't have the time to, to fact-check everything. Uh, uh, it makes you radioactive from the point of view of mainstream journalists because either they, they go to the Southern Po- Poverty L- L- L- Law Center site to figure out who's worth talking to, and they see a page, uh, where you're listed as a anti-Muslim extremist along with people who bear very little resemblance to you ideologically because there are probably a few people on there who, who could be described as anti-Muslim extremists. And, you know, the, here are the 10 people you don't need to talk to on, uh, about this problem. Whereas you're actually, uh, one of the most valuable voices, I mean, objectively, uh, uh, one of the most valuable voices, but probably, uh, you know, I can probably count on two fingers, you know, uh, you know, anyone who would rival your voice on this topic.

Maajid Nawaz 20:04 I-

Sam Harris 20:05 Uh, so it's, it's just mind-boggling.

Maajid Nawaz 20:06 I- it's very difficult- Try to keep this mic closer to your chin. Yeah. It's very difficult. You, you, you can swing it toward you, if you want to.

Sam Harris 20:10 Yeah, I can swing it to ... So it's very difficult because, um, I can't ex- I can't fully explain to anybody what it feels like to have lived an entire life, from roughly the age of 14, being consumed by this issue of Muslims in the West and this question. And originally getting it, answering it in one way, and then still being consumed by the topic, answering it in a different way, as I now do. I can't describe to anybody how much emotionally the toll that it takes to have your whole life, h- have defined your whole life by trying to answer this question. And because you care for it, because this is a question that c- concerns you. When I joined the Islamist group I did, I was wrong and adopted some really nefarious ideas, but did so because I gave a damn and cared for a genocide that I saw unfolding and desperately wanted a solution. So even when I became an Islamist, I did so out of care and love and concern for what I believed was my community under attack. So to have a bunch of people come along and say that I am anti the very community that I've, uh, believe of, I have fought for all my life, you know, and have def- and my life has been consumed and defined by this, it really is taking the one thing away from somebody that they have ... I mean, uh, (laughs) I went to jail for this thing. Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 21:31 I have ... People have died in front of my eyes from their torture wounds in prison because of this thing. To have someone completely ignorant in that way to, to, to deprive me of having the, of being able to claim that I have stood for my community, but by instead saying that I'm anti that community, it really does kind of make you feel like crap, Joe. (laughs)

Sam Harris 21:51 When, when did this start happening, this mo- the moral panic that you've constantly discussed and the, these, the flippant sort of accusations without real, any real, s- solid, objective reasoning behind calling someone like you or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who's the victim of female genital mutilation, to say that she's an anti-Muslim, is l- that, that she's Islamophobic, is-

Maajid Nawaz 22:14 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sam Harris 22:15 It seems to me it's almost insane. But it seems to me to be prevalent. This is something that is a, it's, it's a common sentiment today that I don't recall ever seeing anything like this one or two decades ago.

Maajid Nawaz 22:28 Yeah.

Sam Harris 22:30 Uh- I, I have no ... You might have a better sense-

Maajid Nawaz 22:32 Go for it.

Sam Harris 22:32 ... than I do, but I, I, I don't, uh, it, it's become increasingly salient to me just because I've been doing this work for better or worse and colliding with these people more and more. But, uh, it, it's, it's definitely an export from some trends in intellectual life that go back, you know, 50 years or more. I mean, they, so what postmodernism did-

Maajid Nawaz 22:55 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 22:55 And I mean, you can go back further than that. It's just that there, there's a, there's a, a framework, a k- a kind of pseudo-intellectual framework where facts can't be talked about as facts. They're, they're intrinsically political. They intrinsically c- convey power disparities. Um, you know, science is just a tool of power sort of thinking. And this goes back a ways, but it is, i- i- it's now seemingly ascendant on the left in a way that is, is f- just fairly bewildering, but-

Maajid Nawaz 23:27 But it seems to be only two subjects, gender and race. Those are the ones that get ...

Sam Harris 23:32 Those are the big ones. I, I think it's, I'm sure we could find more if we take a minute to think about it, but they're, those are, those are, uh, those certainly dwarf every other subject. Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 23:42 Those are the ones where there's a wall. There's a wall-

Sam Harris 23:44 I mean-

Maajid Nawaz 23:44 ... that you can't get through with objective reasoning.

Sam Harris 23:45 Gender, but th- this isn't quite race. This is the c- I mean, it, it's drawing a lot of energy fr- from racis- concerns about racism.

Maajid Nawaz 23:53 Yeah. Identity.

Sam Harris 23:54 But it, it's-

Maajid Nawaz 23:54 Yes.

Sam Harris 23:54 It's a, the perception is, is that Muslims are a politically beleaguered minority that have to be ... So it is like, it is a ra- I mean, people think there's, you know, it's, it's racist to criticize Islam as though that made any sense.

Maajid Nawaz 24:08 Right.

Sam Harris 24:09 I mean, you know, Ben Affleck being one. Uh, but it is, you know, this is, they're a minority in Los Angeles. They're not a minor- I mean, they're the second-biggest religion on Earth. This is a, we're talking about 1.7 billion people and they're k- And the criticism of-... Muslim extremism for the most part is focused on societies where you have a m- a, in most cases, a majority Mo- Muslim population. You have women and gays and, and freethinkers treated terribly. And that's the, that is the, you know, the center of the bullseye in terms of, you know, what, what one is criticizing when one talks about, you know, theocracy.

Maajid Nawaz 24:45 So I, uh, there, there was a lot of this stuff, this, um, this, um, paranoia, this sort of, uh, irrational approach to this conversation that Sam suffered from. And when, when, when I first met him, uh, I met Sam (laughs) in New York-

Sam Harris 25:02 Mm-hmm.

Maajid Nawaz 25:02 ... at the Intelligence Squared debate that he ... That, so Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Douglas Murray, who I believe you've had-

Sam Harris 25:06 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 25:07 ... on this podcast, were on one side of a, a debate. I was on the other side of this debate, and the motion that we were debating was, Islam is a religion of peace. I was back then arguing, um, what half of my true belief is because I actually don't believe it's a religion of peace or war. It's just a religion that is interpreted in different ways. But I had to pick a side. And so I picked that side in defending the motion. And, and Ayaan and, and Douglas were on the other side. And there was a, there was a dinner afterwards for the speakers and Sam was there. I imagine you were there as Ayaan's guest.

Sam Harris 25:37 Yeah, yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 25:37 Um, and (laughs) so it's my fault.

Sam Harris 25:40 That went well, yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 25:40 I didn't know who he was, um, and Ayaan and I were locked in conversation, post-debate conversation. And, uh, uh, Ayaan invited Sam to, to have his say. And she said, "I wanna hear what Sam Harris has to say." And so, Sam-

Sam Harris 25:53 So, but, uh, the context is relevant. So we're at ... So we ... They've had a, a pub- have you seen these Intelligence Squared debates that are ... They're very well-produced online. I, I don't know that they're televised anywhere, but they're online. They're, they, they get a great theater in Manhattan and, you know, it's an audience of maybe a thousand people and they ... And John Donvan, the, the journalist, uh, is the, the impresario. And, but then this, this was a dinner afterwards for the organizers and the participants be- and there, there were maybe 70 people in a, you know, the, the back room of a restaurant. And Maajid and I were not at the same table, uh, thankfully.

Maajid Nawaz 26:26 Yeah.

Sam Harris 26:26 We were like 50 feet away from each other, but facing each other. And, uh, so he was at the table with Ayaan and the other speakers and at one point, the, they're ... Everyone's getting debriefed about how this went and Ayaan says, "Well, uh, Sam Harris is here. I'd like to, to hear what he has to say about the debate." And so I look at Maajid-

Maajid Nawaz 26:43 Yeah.

Sam Harris 26:43 ... and he's okay. He's at least 50 feet away from me. And, um, uh, I mean, did you want me to say what I said to you at this point?

Maajid Nawaz 26:50 Yeah, yeah. Go for it. Yeah, please. Yeah.

Sam Harris 26:52 Okay, good. (laughs) So, I mean, so, so he had, uh, made moves in this debate that I considered intellectually dishonest. And, and, I mean, he ... 'cause he's, he's playing a game, and this is not a real conversation. This is a formal, uh, uh, academic-style debate where, you know, his job is not to leave his view open to influence by the other discussants. He's, he's making a case, um, uh, and I didn't know it at the time, but he felt unnaturally constrained by the format of the debate. He had to argue that Islam is a religion of peace and some of the moves he made there I, I thought were dishonest. And so I said, um, uh, "Maajid," uh, and I remember this more or less verbatim because w- we talked about it and we've since, you know, transcribed it into a book. But, um, I said, "Maajid, y- you know, everyone in this room recognizes that you have the hardest job in the world and we're all very glad that you're doing it. You have to, uh, somehow convince the next generation of Muslims that Islam really is a religion of peace and that jihad is just an inner spiritual struggle, and that the, uh, the martyrs don't get 72 virgins in paradise and all the rest." And so my question, uh, for you is, uh, is this ... Do you really believe th- that, that this is the case now or do you, do you think that pretending that it is the c- that is the case is the method by which you will make it the case? That if you just pr- pretend long enough and hard enough that it'll become so?

Maajid Nawaz 28:13 And the extra line here was, "And can you just be honest with us in the privacy of this room?"

Sam Harris 28:16 Yeah, yeah. So b- I fi- uh, uh, my final sentence was-

Maajid Nawaz 28:18 (clears throat)

Sam Harris 28:18 "And, you know, y- you know, we're not on ... We're not televised now. Can you just be honest with us here?" And, uh, so the ... (laughs)

Maajid Nawaz 28:23 So I responded immediately and said, "Are you calling me a liar?" And, uh ...

Sam Harris 28:28 So now there's like 70 ... We have now 70 people and I'm, like, into my second gin and tonic.

Maajid Nawaz 28:32 (laughs)

Sam Harris 28:32 (laughs) And, and he's giving me the, the sort of, you know, Middle Eastern stare down across, ac- acro- acro- you know, and so it's like-

Maajid Nawaz 28:39 And he repeated it. He said, "No, no, I'm asking you just here that ... Where there's no cameras, can you just be honest with us?" And I said, "Are you calling me a liar?" And it didn't go too well at all. The entire ... Everyone on the table kinda went quiet and, uh, and I didn't know who this guy was. I, I, I (laughs) never met him and, and I should've known who he was. And, uh, and, and then I think somebody, uh, very tactfully changed the conversation and just completely veered off this. And I've, I'd never ... And I never spoke to him again for another, what was it?

Sam Harris 29:06 Couple of years, yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 29:07 Couple of years. I'd n- we'd never crossed paths since then. And the reason I bring this up is that I was one of those guys that didn't want to entertain a conversation with Sam, uh, based upon the defensiveness when it came to this topic. And, and I think that actually it's important to say that to people that ... 'Cause you asked him a question about the Charles Murray situation. A lot of people, rather than actually wanting to engage with someone on the substance of their ideas, that I think in the climate we're in today, they're engaging with people based upon their, on their feelings.

Sam Harris 29:36 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 29:36 And those feelings are valid, of course. Everyone has the right to their feelings, but we've gotta try as hard as we can to detach those feelings from ... Because that's clearly not what the ... You know, if ... The principle of charity means you lend the person that you're speaking to the best possible interpretation of what they're saying and, and, and allow them to clarify what they mean as opposed to you putting into their mouths what, what they mean and telling them what they mean. I learned that, you know, 'cause then two years later, he reaches out to me and he says, "I think we can try again. You know, d- are you willing to have a conversation with me?" And, and I hadn't originally remembered it was the same guy. (laughs) So-

Sam Harris 30:10 Oh, that's funny. I got my foot in the door just because you didn't know who I was.

Maajid Nawaz 30:12 'Cause I didn't realize it. (laughs)

Sam Harris 30:14 (laughs)

Maajid Nawaz 30:14 And then we had this conversation which it's a lesson for me 'cause we had this conversation, uh, it's, it's, it's called Islam and the Future of Tolerance. It's, it's become a book, right? With- and published by Harvard University Press. We had this conversation that became a book that's been made into a film which I think any, what, couple of weeks now we're hearing some news on that?

Sam Harris 30:29 Yeah, I don't know when that's coming out but-

Maajid Nawaz 30:30 Yeah.

Sam Harris 30:30 So, we did a s- a lecture tour of Australia and the people who organized that sh- made a documentary that we did

Maajid Nawaz 30:38 But therein lies this lesson to your question and, and, and that is that I am somebody that-

30:43 ... didn't engage with him on the substance of his question, but actually-

Sam Harris 30:46 Hmm.

Maajid Nawaz 30:46 ... fired a misfire, an emotional misfire, on, on, on, on, on what was really questioning, and, uh, his motives for asking the question, rather than actually addressing, addressing the points he was making. And I think that when I ... Because I didn't remember who he was, I then started the con- conversation anew-

Sam Harris 31:04 Ah.

Maajid Nawaz 31:04 ... without the memory of my original judgment on him.

Sam Harris 31:06 Hmm.

Maajid Nawaz 31:07 And the conversation went really well. (laughs)

Sam Harris 31:09 (laughs)

Maajid Nawaz 31:09 So we've got to somehow be able to divorce ourselves from that background.

Sam Harris 31:11 That can happen. I mean, it can be done. It's just it take, it takes people of strong character to, to try to like, ver- abandon all preconceived notions from the past-

Maajid Nawaz 31:21 Hmm.

Sam Harris 31:21 ... conversation and just start fresh.

Maajid Nawaz 31:23 Hmm.

Sam Harris 31:23 Yeah, I ca- uh, unfortunately this example of, of a kind of a signal success has, has caused me to, uh, in the end kind of misspend a lot of energy just assuming that I can do this again.

Maajid Nawaz 31:35 Try and replicate it. Yeah.

Sam Harris 31:35 I can't ... I keep thinking, I, I, I keep walking into another situation thinking this is possible.

Maajid Nawaz 31:39 Is that why you deleted Twitter? (laughs)

Sam Harris 31:41 Well, I, yeah, yeah. It's off my phone, yes. Um-

Maajid Nawaz 31:44 So you haven't deleted your account, have you? Just-

Sam Harris 31:45 No, I'm still on Twitter, but I, I, I will, uh, based on this recent episode, I will use it differently.

Maajid Nawaz 31:50 I am fascinated by people and their struggles with social media.

Sam Harris 31:55 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 31:55 With like, de- detaching from it, reattaching from it, getting addicted to it. I mean, I know so many people that will look at their Twitter at like 1:00 in the morning before they go to bed and something pisses them off and then they can't sleep.

Sam Harris 32:08 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 32:08 Wow.

Sam Harris 32:09 Oh, yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 32:09 It's really common.

Sam Harris 32:10 I, I was not ... I, I, I, I don't consider myself someone who had a, a, a real pathology with it. I mean, I was, you know, I, I have, I don't know, 6,000 tweets or 7,000 tweets over the course of, over the many years. Um, so I'm not, I was not tweeting that much. I was not even looking that much. I was, I was fairly, uh, disengaged and I've never used Facebook as a, I've never ... I just use Facebook as kind of a publishing channel. I never engage with comments. But I was looking enough and it, it was, I mean, one, it was clearly making me a worse person. I mean, I just, it was, I was, I was reacting to stuff that I didn't need to react to. And it was amplifying certain m- uh, criticisms and, and voices which need not have been amplified. And in this, in this last case, it just turned a, I mean, it just, it created a, a, a huge kind of a, a, a explosion in my life. I was in the middle of a vacation, which I basically torpedoed because of what I saw on Twitter. I mean, it was just, it was like the, the perfect infomercial for why you don't wanna be engaged with social media.

Maajid Nawaz 33:15 You torpedoed your vacation how?

Sam Harris 33:18 Well, so I'm in the middle of like, the first vacation I've taken with my family for, in a very long time. It was at le- at least a year. And-

Maajid Nawaz 33:24 Wow.

Sam Harris 33:24 ... and we're, uh, so, uh, we're, you know, we're on Hawaii and just like, I'm supposed to put everything down to be the best father and husband I can be, right? And, and that was my intention. That's what was ha- happening. Uh, it happened for a good solid 24 hours.

Maajid Nawaz 33:38 (laughs)

Sam Harris 33:40 (laughs) And, and then I pick up my phone and I see that, that Reza Aslan and Glenn Greenwald and Ezra Klein had all attacked me in the space of an hour.

Maajid Nawaz 33:49 Oh, no.

Sam Harris 33:49 Right? And so now, there's like n- it's goes out to millions of people who have-

Maajid Nawaz 33:52 And is this over the, what he was also, was asking about the Charles Murray thing?

Sam Harris 33:55 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 33:55 Was it-

Sam Harris 33:55 Well, I, truth is I can't even see what I, I, I didn't look at what Greenwald had done. Um, he was circulating somebody's video about me, how I'm, I think I'm a racist in that video. Uh, uh, Reza Aslan blocks me, so I can't even see what ... He attacks me by name, but he blocks me so that-

Maajid Nawaz 34:11 (laughs)

Sam Harris 34:11 ... so I can't even see what his, his ex- or-

Maajid Nawaz 34:13 That's hilarious. (laughs)

Sam Harris 34:14 Yeah. But, uh, so I, I, but I just saw the, the aftermath of that, you know, lots of stu- you know, lots of notifications coming to me with both of us tagged. Um, and then Ezra published this ... I mean, I supp- I suppose I should back up, uh, however painfully to, to describe what happened here. But, so I had Charles Murray on my podcast a year ago, and Charles Murray is this, this, um, social scientist who, uh, published The Bell Curve back in the '90s, which it was a, a book about IQ and, and success in, in Western societies like our own. And, um, uh, it's a book where he worries a lot about the cognitive stratification of society. We have a society that is selecting more and more for a narrow band of, of talents that are, is very w- fairly well captured by what we call IQ. And there, it, it's a kind of winner take all situation where people are really, you know, uh, uh, 500 years ago, if you had a, a very high IQ and you're, you're just pushing a plow next to your neighbor, you had no real advantage. But now you can start a hedge fund or you can start a software company. And we're, we're seeing the, this, this real, uh, shocking disparity in, in, uh, good fortune really. Uh, so, uh, he wrote this book. It had a chapter on race, which talked about the disparities in, in, in, uh, racial, uh, groups. Uh-

Maajid Nawaz 35:33 The statistically observed disparities.

Sam Harris 35:35 Right.

Maajid Nawaz 35:36 Yeah.

Sam Harris 35:36 And, uh, the claim about the source of those disparities was by, even the standards of the time, but certainly the, the standards of today, an incredibly tepid, mealy-mouthed, just hand waving. It was not this, you know, here comes the Third Reich declaration of, of white supremacy. It was undoubtedly there are environmental and genetic reasons for this and we don't understand them. You know, it was, it was just like a, a ... To, to think that it's one or the other, we're not in a position to know, uh, what the mix is of, of, of in- influences now. Um, and that is, uh, virtually any honest scientist's take on the matter. Um, and to certainly today, I mean, it's, it's only become more so. Uh, but that went off like a nuclear bomb. I mean, that was just s- that was such a, um, uh, I mean, it's, it's the most, um-... I, so, and at the time, I never read the book. I just thought this had to be-

Joe Rogan 36:36 Hmm.

Sam Harris 36:36 ... just racist, poisonous-

36:37 Of course, Charles Murray would be vilified for, for that observation.

36:40 And he, he's been vilified ever since. And ever since, you know, I, I've ignored him and-

Joe Rogan 36:44 Wasn't he deplatformed and assaulted recently?

Sam Harris 36:47 Yeah. So that's what happened.

Joe Rogan 36:48 Yeah.

Sam Harris 36:48 So, so he went to Middlebury to give a talk, you know, 20, uh, some odd years, 25 years after he wrote this book. And-

36:54 Oh, by the way, he's also listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Uh-

36:57 Oh.

36:58 And so that, that, that's what contributed to the deplatforming and the violent protest against him at Middlebury.

Joe Rogan 37:04 What's crazy is the whole thing is a propaganda for the superiority of the Asian race, and everyone's missing that. (laughs)

Sam Harris 37:09 Yeah, yeah. Tha- that's the flip side of it. Yeah.

37:11 Yeah. (laughs) They're all talking about white supremacy. It says-

Joe Rogan 37:12 Asians are actually the ones that-

Sam Harris 37:14 Far and above.

Joe Rogan 37:14 Yeah.

Sam Harris 37:15 I mean, that's basically what his book proved. And, you know, they're suing Harvard now. There's a-

Joe Rogan 37:19 Right.

Sam Harris 37:19 ... group of Asian students that are su- suing Harvard because they're discriminated against-

Joe Rogan 37:23 (laughs)

Sam Harris 37:23 ... because they're required to have higher scores-

Joe Rogan 37:25 Yeah.

Sam Harris 37:25 ... because they're assumed to be smarter.

Joe Rogan 37:27 Wow.

Sam Harris 37:27 So the standards for Asian students entering into Harvard is higher than white people.

37:32 Wow. (laughs)

37:32 Yes. Well, Asian privilege is a, is a big problem. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:36 It's- (laughs)

Sam Harris 37:36 Yeah. Your, your grandfather was working on the railroads in California as an, an indentured servant and, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 37:41 Yeah. (laughs)

Sam Harris 37:41 ... all that privilege trickled down.

Joe Rogan 37:43 There's obviously a, a lot of factors that lead to IQ, to, to high IQ, but to ignore what those are, to ignore it completely, to just-

Sam Harris 37:50 In the name of-

Joe Rogan 37:51 ... bury your head in the sand.

Sam Harris 37:51 ... in the name of ideology, of course.

Joe Rogan 37:52 Yes. Exactly. Only ideology. And th- this idea that you cannot look at statistics, you cannot look at facts.

Sam Harris 37:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:58 And w- in your conversation with Ezra Charles, that's what ... or Ezra Klein rather, that's what I got, is that this is, this is an ideological issue, and that you, you ... It's almost like an impossible subject to breach.

Sam Harris 38:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:11 Like, you can't even discuss the fact that certain races demonstrate low IQ, and then let's look at what could be the cause of those. Even discussing that somehow or another is so inherently racist that it must be ignored or must be silenced, and that you, you must first concentrate on all the various injustices that have been done to those people who have this lower IQ.

Sam Harris 38:33 Yeah. Well, let me just take a couple of minutes to close the various doors to hell-

Joe Rogan 38:37 Okay. (laughs)

Sam Harris 38:37 ... that are now ajar based on what we've just said.

38:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:40 (laughs)

Sam Harris 38:40 So-

38:40 So you were on your holiday-

38:41 Yeah.

38:42 ... and you get always the ... (laughs)

38:43 Oh, yeah. So, so well, just a little more context. So, so yeah, as you said, Charles Murray went to Middlebury College and was deplatformed. And he was not only deplatformed, so the usual deplatforming with the students turning their back to the speaker-

38:53 Yeah.

38:53 ... and shouting and not letting anything happen. But the professor who invited him, who is a liberal professor who wanted to essentially debate him-

39:01 She was attacked.

39:01 Yeah. When they're leaving the hall, they both get physically attacked by a, a, a, a crowd of students. Uh, Charles was, was not hurt. His host, uh, this female professor, got a concussion and a neck injury that, that still persists, and this is now more than a year later. So like sh- she was actually-

39:18 I think she's a registered Democrat. (laughs)

39:19 ... harmed by this. No doubt. And-

Joe Rogan 39:22 (laughs)

Sam Harris 39:22 ... and they're driving out in an SUV where ... that gets ... I mean, someone pulls a, a stop sign out of the, the, the sidewalk, and it's still got the concrete ball on the end of it. And that this SUV gets smashed with this, you know, concrete-laden stop sign. I mean, this was ... this is happening at one of the most liberal, privileged colleges o- on earth. Uh, it's nuts. So anyway, that was a thing that put Murray on my radar after all these many years of my ignoring him. And I had actually ... and I felt guilty because I had declined to be a part of at least one project because his name was attached, right? Because I just thought, "Th- this guy's radioactive. He's, he's got some white supremacist agenda." I had believed the, the, the, the lies about him. Uh, and then I saw this and I thought, "Okay, well, maybe he's the canary in the coal mine or, or certainly one of the canaries in the coal mine that I had ignored," where the, as you say, there are these ... certain topics are considered so politically fraught that you cannot discuss them no matter what is true. Like, like, it's just like, it's just a, you know ... uh, uh, there has to be a firewall between your conversation about reality and these sorts of facts. Uh, and so, you know, so he's been, you know, suffering from having transgressed that boundary. And so I had him on the, on the podcast, uh, being fairly agnostic about his, his actual social policy commitments and his political, uh, concerns, and just wanting to talk about, uh, you know, the, the facts in so far as we touched them lightly. I mean, I had zero interest in intelligence as measured by IQ, uh, although, I mean, it's an interesting subject, but I hadn't, you know, I hadn't spent much time focused on that. And I had, uh, truly zero interest in establishing differences between populations with respect to intelligence or anything else. But I see what's coming. I see the fact that, that the, the more we understand ourselves genetically and environmentally, the more we will ... if we go looking or even if we're not looking, we will discover differences between groups. And the end game for us as a species is not to deny that those differences exist or could possibly exist, it's to deny that they have real political implication. I mean, what ... the, the, the political impli- the, the political framework we need is a commitment to, to equality across the board and a commitment to treating individuals as individuals. There's nobody who's a- a ... The, the average of a population is meaningless with respect to you.

41:54 Mm-hmm.

41:54 And that will always be so. And, um, and whatever, you know, and, and whatever diversity of talents there is statistically in various populations, we want societies that simply don't care politically about that. I mean, that, that's just ... it's just not what, what ... it's ... the ... our, our political tolerance of one another and support of one another is not predicated on denying individual differences or even statistical differences across groups. It can't be, because we know that there are people walking around, like, uh, you know, Elon Musk, who gets out of bed in the ... every morning and does the work of like 4,000 people, right? And people who-... just are, are struggling to work at Starbucks and hold down a job. And our political system, uh, I mean, th- this... We, we don't say one person is more valuable, politically and socially, than another, even though one person's capable of doing massive things that, that, that, that, uh, many, most other people aren't. It's, you know, w- when it comes time to, to write laws and create institutions that prote- that, that support human flourishing, we, we have to engineer tides that raise all the boats. And so, you know, and, and, you know, there are legitimate debates about the social policies that will do that, but... And there are legitimate debates about fact. So we can debate scientific fact and, and, you know, the, the results of, you know, psychometric testing or, or behavioral genetics that are relevant to this question of intelligence, uh, and we can have a good-faith debate about the data. And then we can have a good-faith debate about social policy that should follow from the data. But what's happening on the left now is on either, at either of those, uh, tiers of conversation, there are just straight-up allegations of, of, of racism that hit you the moment you touch certain, uh, uh, certain facts.

Maajid Nawaz 43:52 (Coughs) Can I say that, that, that what he's just summarized there, what I've heard, um, sounds to me as, uh, being more humane than the implications of the argument that the left who are opposing what Sam has just said are? 'Cause if you think about it, the implications of their argument would be they w- they wanna deny the facts because they're scared that those facts would... From which there would be der- derived a policy that would reflect those facts. In other words, in their minds, they are marrying those two. They are marrying the notion that if, in statistical observance, there are variances in IQs between groups, in their minds, that means the policy should follow from that. So it's why they're resisting what he's saying, whereas what he's saying is there is no connection between what the policy should be and what the facts may be, because of the kind of world we wanna live in, uh, should aspire to equality regardless of what the science is saying because one is policy and one is science.

Joe Rogan 44:52 Uh, I freely agree with you on that, but I don't think that's necessarily exactly what they're saying. What I think what they're saying is and what they're doing is they almost feel so guilty that any discussion whatsoever about race can't be held unless you repeatedly bring up all the instances of racism and suppression that... And discrimination that that group has suffered from.

Maajid Nawaz 45:13 Mm.

Joe Rogan 45:13 It's like, you can't... It doesn't sti- exist as a statistic island.

Sam Harris 45:17 No.

Joe Rogan 45:17 You mu- you have to bring everything in together. If you don't do that, that's where their protest comes from. And I think that was one of the things that I got from your conversation with Ezra Klein.

Sam Harris 45:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:26 He wasn't willing to just discuss what's the implication of these issues and completely dismissed this, this fact that Asian people score far better. They're, they're... This is not a, this is not an advocacy for white supremacy.

Maajid Nawaz 45:38 But it's almost as if they fear that by, by conceding on the data, it's almost as if they fear that the implication must necessarily follow that the policy will also be supremacist in that way.

Joe Rogan 45:48 Hmm. I wonder. Um, I honestly think that what we talked about before is a big part of it.

Maajid Nawaz 45:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:52 This ideological, uh, idea sport and that they're just volleying back. I don't think they're willing to take... I think one of the real strengths of character that you demonstrate in a debate or any discussion of facts is when uncomfortable truths rear their ugly head that are counter to your, uh, your personal position.

Maajid Nawaz 46:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:10 You have to be able to go, "You got a really good point."

Maajid Nawaz 46:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:13 "You've got a good point. There's something to that. I see what you're saying, okay. This is what my concern would be." And th- this would be a rational, real conversation.

Maajid Nawaz 46:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:20 "This is what I would worry about." And then you would, I'm sure, say, "Absolutely, I would worry about that as well," and then you would have this sort of a discussion.

Maajid Nawaz 46:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:26 I didn't get that from that conversation you had.

Maajid Nawaz 46:29 No, no.

Joe Rogan 46:29 I got ping-pong. I got buh-bup, buh-bup, buh-bup, buh-bup.

Maajid Nawaz 46:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:32 I got this rallying back and forth of ideas rather than two human beings not digging their heels into the sand, just trying to look at the ideas and look at the statistics and look at these studies for what they are.

Maajid Nawaz 46:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:45 And look at Charles Murray and what he's gone through and... Should we be able to examine these statistical anomalies? Should we be able to examine athletic superiority? Should we be able to examine, uh, superiority that A- Asians show in mathematics and a lot of the sciences? Should we? Should we be able to or should we just dig our heads in the sand? Should we just let things sort themselves out and quietly ignore all the reality?

Sam Harris 47:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:07 I don't know.

Sam Harris 47:08 Well, so, uh, I should say that I am... I, I certainly understand people's fear that if you... That anyone who would go looking for racial difference is very likely motiva- motivated by something unethical or unsavory, right? So like, like you, you could imagine, you know, white supremacists being, being, uh, uh, su- super enamored of this, the possibility that these data exist.

Maajid Nawaz 47:32 They are.

Sam Harris 47:32 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 47:32 And they are.

Sam Harris 47:32 Yes. And so-

Joe Rogan 47:33 Well, until they look at the Asian statistics. (laughs)

Sam Harris 47:35 That's right. Uh, so, so that's... I, I get that, right? And there is, there are some things that... And this is, this was a question I had for Charles Murray on, on that podcast. I said like, like, "Why pay attention to any of this? What is the upside?" Like in the, in the infinity of, of interesting problems we can tackle scientifically, why focus on population differences? And, you know, frankly, I, I didn't get a great answer from him. I mean, his answer-

Maajid Nawaz 48:01 What did he say?

Sam Harris 48:01 His answer, his answer is... Well, I, I think the best version of his answer, which I agree with, but still it may not justify certain, certain uses of attention, i- is just that if you... There's this massive bias that, um, basically we're all working with a blank slate, uh, genetically. And therefore, any difference you see among people is a matter of, of environment. And so, so then you have people who have privileged environments and people who have environments that, that, um, uh, where they're, they're massively under-resourced. And so therefore, any...... different representation at the, you know, the higher echelons of success and achievement and power in our society. Uh, you know, if there's 13% African Americans in the US, if you look at the top doctors in hospitals or the top a- academics, or the, um, you know, the Oscar winners, or wherever, you know, wherever you wanna look for, for, for achievement, if there are less than 13% African Americans in any one of those bins, that has to be the result of, of racism, or cis- systemic racism. Um, that is the left, the leftward bias at this moment. And it ... And so it is with Jews, uh, for antisemitism, so it is for women. Um, you know, there should be a, an equal representation of, of women, uh, you know, computer, uh, software engineers at Google. Um, and any lack of ... Any disparity there must be the result of either, uh, p- just, uh, i- inequitable resources for, you know, kids in schools or, or, uh, somewhere along the way, or, um, a pol- a kind of a selection pressure from the top that, you know, we, you know, we don't like women in, at Google or, uh, Blacks, uh, at the Oscars. And so that's the ... So Murray's concern is, if you believe that, and I'm n- you know, this, uh, this is not exactly what he said, but this is, this is what I believe he thinks, but I, I could be putting some words into his mouth here. But this is certainly what many other people on his side of the debate think. If you believe that, you will con- consistently find racial bias and antisemitism and misogyny where it doesn't exist, right? So like, if you, if you go looking, if you go to a hospital-

Joe Rogan 50:22 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 50:22 ... and th- and this is a real problem. You, there, like, like, you know, the academic departments in the medical schools, at the best medical schools are under massive pressure to find, like, uh, real diversity in representation at the highest level. You need to find a, a t- a head of cardiology who's Black, right? Um, and if you, and you're ... And the fact that you haven't done that is a sign that there's a problem with you and your organization and your process of hiring. Now, if it's just the case, for whatever reason, that there are not many candidates, like, uh, less than 13% for that field, or to take the, you know, the James Damore me- memo at Google, right? If it just is the case that women ... Forget about, this is, uh, this, this is beyond aptitude. This just goes to interest. If it's the case that women, for whatever reason, genetic env- or environmental, are less interested in being software engineers on average than men are, then y- then having, you know, 20% women, uh, coding software at Google is not the pro- it's not Google's problem. It's just the fact that this is the, the popul- what the population interests are.

51:31 (laughs) .

51:32 Now, we should ... No doubt racism still exists. No doubt misogyny and sexism still exists. There, there are, I mean, and there- and there's proof of this to be found as well. But if to assume an absolute uniformity of hum- uh, of interest and aptitude in every population you could look at is just scientifically irrational. That would be a miracle if that was the case.

51:56 S- so, so at this stage, u- uh, allow me to remind everybody, that was Sam summarizing what he thinks Charles Murray was saying-

52:01 Right.

52:01 ... as opposed to Sam-

52:02 Well, no, no, but I-

52:03 ... summarizing his-

Joe Rogan 52:04 No, but no, you're-

Sam Harris 52:04 But my, that fi- that final point is, is, is just a, a true point.

52:07 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:07 Yeah.

Sam Harris 52:07 That like, there, genes ... Almost everything we care about are m- massively influenced by genes. Not 100%, but, but a lot.

52:14 But of the more I've seen happen to you though is that people have taken your summaries of other people's stances-

52:18 Right, yes, but that necessarily-

52:19 ... and attributed those views to you.

Joe Rogan 52:19 It wasn't even necessarily Charles Murray's position. You're, it's your summary of his position in relationship to this, uh, this fight against it.

Sam Harris 52:28 Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the thing that I would add and the thing where there's some daylight between the two, uh, me and him, uh, on my podcast is this is so toxic to be kind of trafficking in population differences with respect to IQ that i- a- and, and it's not, it's not absolutely clear what social policies turn on really nailing down these differences. I mean, so you could go, I mean, to take it even more toxic as an example perhaps, it's like you could decide, uh, you know, the Roma in Europe, the, the gypsies. You know, like, this is like a v- a very isolated, beleaguered c- you know, uh, community wh- who knows how inbred it is. I mean, I don't know, but e- it's just, this is a, this is an outlier community. Like, uh, anyone who's gonna wanna do, you know, massive IQ testing on the Roma, what's the p- what's the point of doing that, right? Like, you know, it's like you're, uh, uh, it seems like a, just a, uh, a kind of political time bomb to devote, uh, uh, resources in that way because we know that the policy you want, whatever any, uh, whatever the, the mean IQ is of any group, the policy you want is to give everyone whatever opportunities they can avail themselves of. So we want, we want people to have the best schools they can use, and then we'll find people who need to be in, in more remedial schools for whatever reason, or you know, people who, like, you know, there'll be one population that has 10 times the amount of dyslexia than another population, say. And there'll be undoubtedly genetic reasons for that, you know? There may be environmental reasons for that as well. But there's ... We need to be able to cater to all of those needs, uh, with just th- there's this fundamental commitment to good will and equality without being panicked that we'll find stuff that just blows everything up. But on the left, there, there is this sense that the only way to move forward toward equality is to lie about what is scientifically plaus- plausible and demonize anyone who won't lie with you.

Joe Rogan 54:36 Hm.

Sam Harris 54:37 That's the ideological point there earlier.

Joe Rogan 54:40 This is a new thing, though, right? I mean, relatively speaking, this, uh, this hard nose stance from the left of the equality of outcome and, and-... the only reason why there wouldn't be 50% women or 50% Black or 50% any... You just pick any marginalized group. The only reason why it wouldn't be even across the board with all other races is because of discrimination. This is a fairly new stance.

Sam Harris 55:02 Well, I mean, there were, there were moments that were fairly well publicized that I, I don't... I forget when Larry Summers got fired from Harvard. So, L- Larry Summers was the president of Harvard, and he's a famous economist, uh, and he gave a speech for which he was fired. Uh, there, there might be a little more color as to why he was fired. I mean, he was, he was more fired because he, he... Once the- the wheels started to come off, he didn't... He had alienated enough people that he didn't have friends to kind of prop him up. But- but the thing that pulled the wheels off was that he gave a speech and he said, "We know there are- are differences in- in the- the bell curves that describe, you know, mathematical aptitude between men and women, and this explains why there are many more top-flight male mathematicians and engineers than women." And it's not that they even... It's not that the, uh, the means of the- uh, uh, the- the- the- of the bell curves are different. So, the- the means could be the same, but there could be more variance, so that the tails are thicker in the case of- of the male b- bell curve. So at the, at the absolute ends, both the- the- the low end and the high end, you have many more people. So, you know, if you're, if you're gonna ask, you know, what's the... In the same size population, uh, how many people do you have at the 99.999 percentile of a- aptitude in math, say, it could be that you have... And there's, there's a fair amount of data to show this, many more men at the tails than women, right? And- and that's true for grandmasters in chess, right? It's just- it's just... This is not a, uh... And it may be true for something like, you know, playing pool, you know? I mean, there- there- there are just differences and- that may not be entirely environmental, almost certainly are not entirely environmental. Uh-

Joe Rogan 56:46 Th- that is one.

Sam Harris 56:47 Right, yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 56:47 I mean, it's a- it's a big issue in the- the world of pool. Men and women play separately, and there's no reason physically why they shouldn't.

Sam Harris 56:53 Yeah, they're not... It's not a strength game, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:55 Right, but women are allowed to play in men's tournaments, but they never win.

Sam Harris 56:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:59 Uh, Jean Bouleukas was a woman who's, uh... She was, like, one of the only women to ever compete and beat men. She's like an extreme outlier, and this was like... I wanna say it was in the s- late '70s or the '80s.

Sam Harris 57:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:12 A- and other than that, there's been a few women that have done well in tournaments, but when they come to major league professional pool tournaments, they're almost always won by men. And I'm... When I say almost, I mean like 99.9%, yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 57:24 So there was... Uh, Commonwealth Games have been happening as we... It was just over the last couple of weeks, and there was a male-to-female transgendered athlete in the weightlifting category-

Joe Rogan 57:35 Yeah, that's a whole nother ball of worms.

Sam Harris 57:36 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 57:36 ... who participated in the women's competition.

Joe Rogan 57:39 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 57:40 And the Commonwealth Games at the time of her joining hadn't yet put down a rule as to testosterone levels in the females competing, and so this male-to-female transgendered person w- qualified in the female games and was, as you'd expect, um, winning in all of the games, and was the front-runner and destined to win the competition as a male-to-female transgendered person. And the only reason... And it would have led to a huge crisis in the Commonwealth Games because there were some resistance to this notion, um, and of course, the questions that arise, "Is this fair?" Um, men are born naturally with higher levels of testosterone, for example. The only reason it didn't lead to- to crunch time, and that was the huge scandal of- of, uh, of her winning, is that she injured herself in the competition, and by sheer accident.

Sam Harris 58:28 Wow. Yeah, I s- I saw that.

Maajid Nawaz 58:29 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 58:29 Well, I can- I can expand on that a little bit because I've actually gone through this extensively-

Maajid Nawaz 58:33 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 58:33 ... because there was a woman who was, uh... Used to be a man, was competing in mixed martial arts against women, and just beating the shit out of them-

Maajid Nawaz 58:40 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 58:40 And I- and I was saying-

Maajid Nawaz 58:42 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 58:42 ... that this is, this is a mistake.

Maajid Nawaz 58:43 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 58:44 And that you're- you're looking at s- whether someone should be legally able to identify as a woman, portray themselves as a woman, absolutely.

Maajid Nawaz 58:51 Yeah.

Sam Harris 58:51 Do you have the freedom to become "a woman," in quotes, in our society? Yes, but you can't deny biological nature, and there's physiological advantages to the male frame.

Maajid Nawaz 59:01 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 59:01 There's... It's specifically when it comes to combat sports, that's my wheelhouse.

Maajid Nawaz 59:06 Yeah.

Sam Harris 59:06 I'm an expert. I understand there's a giant difference between the amount of power that a man and a woman can generate-

Maajid Nawaz 59:12 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 59:12 ... and if you're telling me that a guy living 30 years of his life as a man, that's- that's essentially like a woman being on steroids for 30 years-

Maajid Nawaz 59:20 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 59:20 ... then getting off, and then having regular women, uh, being forced to compete with her-

Maajid Nawaz 59:25 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 59:26 ... and p- trying to pretend that this is a level playing field. It is not.

Maajid Nawaz 59:28 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sam Harris 59:28 There's a difference in the shape of the hips, the size of the shoulder, the density of the bones, the size of the fists.

Maajid Nawaz 59:34 Yeah.

Sam Harris 59:35 W- that's a giant factor-

Maajid Nawaz 59:37 Yeah.

Sam Harris 59:37 ... in your ability to generate power-

Maajid Nawaz 59:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:38 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 59:38 ... is the size of your fists. And-

Joe Rogan 59:40 It's also an ethical pro- I mean, it's not just competition here.

Sam Harris 59:42 It's a giant problem.

Joe Rogan 59:42 Is you- you have, you know, girls getting beaten up by someone who used to be a man in this case. Yes, but- but people came down on me harder than anything that I've ever stood up for in my life.

Maajid Nawaz 59:52 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 59:53 Never in my life that I think there was gonna be a situation where I said, "Hey, I don't think a guy should be able to get his penis removed and beat the shit outta women." And then people are like, "You're outta line." But that's v- literally what happened.

Maajid Nawaz 1:00:02 That's literally the summary of the situation.

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 (laughs) That's literally what happened. This is a conversation that I had with a woman, uh, online, is one o- one... During this whole thing. Uh, she said, she... This person who had turned into a woman has always been a woman, and I said, "But she was a man for 30 years." She goes, "No, she's always been a woman." I go, "Even when she had sex with a woman and fathered a kid?"And she says yes-

Maajid Nawaz 1:00:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:25 ... even then. I go, "Well, we're done."

Maajid Nawaz 1:00:27 Yeah.

Sam Harris 1:00:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 'Cause you're just talking nonsense. This is-

Sam Harris 1:00:28 Yeah, that's i- that's ideology can- that's ideology-

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Ideology. Exactly.

Sam Harris 1:00:31 ... covering the facts as they are-

Joe Rogan 1:00:32 Well, it's-

Sam Harris 1:00:32 ... is that she had a male physique and a male body.

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 She- this person who's arguing with me wants to claim this moral high ground of being the most progressive. And they're always looking to step on top of anybody who's less progressive than them and complain- and, and proclaim superiority. And this is the ideological sport.

Maajid Nawaz 1:00:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:49 This is the idea sport that, that y- you see with- when people are playing just ping pong with ideas.

Maajid Nawaz 1:00:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 They're not listening.

Maajid Nawaz 1:00:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 You, you, you need to listen to experts in, in th- when you're- especially when you're talking about martial arts.

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 There is a- there- the, the difference is so profound-

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 ... and the results are so critical because you're talking about a sport where the objective goal- the, the goal is clear. It's very clear. Beat the fuck outta-

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:14 ... the other person in front of you.

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 So anything that would give you an advantage in beating the fuck outta that person should be really looked at very carefully-

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:21 ... and not th- thrown through the, the lens of this progressive ideological filter that we're going through right now 'cause that's, that's what it is. I mean, that's how people are looking at it.

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 It's with weightlifting as well. When transgendered athletes go into weightlifting competitions, the male to female transgender athletes are overwhelmingly dominant.

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:41 Yeah.

Sam Harris 1:01:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 I mean, is this- is this a coincidence?

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:44 No.

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 Or is- no. It's someone who had fucking testosterone pumping through their system and a, and a Y chromosome-

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:49 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 ... their whole life.

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 And now all of a sudden we're supposed to say, "No, she's a woman. She's a- she's dainty." She's got size 14 feet.

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 She's got gorilla hands. Like what-

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:58 So does-

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 ... in the fuck are we doing here?

Maajid Nawaz 1:01:59 ... so, so I think, uh, as you said earlier, uh, it's- she is a woman, but t- uh, for, for the purposes of competition-

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:02:05 ... against other women, you know, legally she's a woman at that stage-

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 Right.

Maajid Nawaz 1:02:08 ... if she goes through that identity transition. But I think we have to recognize, and I think even many f- traditional feminists are making this point-

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:02:16 ... much to the anger of the trans community. They're saying, "Hold on. You- what you're doing in this way is actually- f- we fought so hard and so long for these female spaces where we have a space of our own."

Joe Rogan 1:02:27 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:02:27 "And now people that used to be men are coming into those spaces and are actually quite literally beating the crap out of us in those spaces."

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 Yes. Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:02:34 You know, whether it's b- in boxing, uh, whether it's in, uh, weightlifting and martial arts. They are m- uh, uh f- by definition they're dominating all this. Of course they are, for, uh, for the reasons you've said.

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 And the experts that they're calling upon are almost all transition doctors, surgeons, or, or people that have transitioned themselves.

Maajid Nawaz 1:02:52 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 When they speak to actual board certified endocrinologists, some of them, they only do it off record-

Maajid Nawaz 1:02:57 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 ... but one of 'em, um, (sighs) uh, I forget her name. She was in w- one of the big mixed martial arts publications, uh, Ramona Krutsek, I believe is her name. She's s- saying l- like, no, not only does it- it- it actually- doing this transition like from male to female, you're forcing- you're, you're, you're putting estrogen into the system, so the bone density change that would ordinarily take place if you remove someone's testicles and stop the t-

Maajid Nawaz 1:03:23 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 ... the production of testosterone, estrogen preserves bone density. So you're actually retaining-

Maajid Nawaz 1:03:29 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:29 ... the male bone density. There's so many problems with this. And the, and the-

Maajid Nawaz 1:03:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 ... one, one of the other things they say, "Well, oh, the Olympics. The Olympics allow it." The Olympics are very ideologically based.

Maajid Nawaz 1:03:40 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:40 There's not a whole lot of science to this tr- this transition thing of allowing male to female athletes to compete in the Olympics. And there's a extreme amount of corruption in the Olympics as it is with the IOC being in bed with WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, and the way they handled this Russian scandal.

Maajid Nawaz 1:03:58 Yeah.

Sam Harris 1:03:58 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:58 I mean, this Russian scandal that was highlighted in that fantastic documentary, Icarus.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:02 Yeah. That was good.

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Like, fucking crazy.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:05 Yeah.

Sam Harris 1:04:05 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 The, the Olympics are not to be trusted. That is a gigantic, multi-billion dollar business where the athletes get paid zero money.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 It is inherently corrupt from the top down. No doubt about it.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:15 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 So to, to call upon them as to see who should be competing as a woman, fuck off.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 Th- they, they're not the experts. This is, this is not something that's been examined. And this is coming from someone who one of my jobs is examining and commentating on fights.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 That is a big part of what I do.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 I understand fights. And I know what it looks like when a man's beating the shit out of a woman.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:36 Yeah.

Sam Harris 1:04:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 And that's what it looked like when this person was fighting women, is there was a massive physical advantage. Massive. And not a skill advantage.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:43 What, what was the- what- what was the re- you mentioned something about the reaction that you got to that. What was the trouble you got into?

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 Oh, people were so mad at me.

Maajid Nawaz 1:04:47 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 I mean, there was just so many- n- not only that, they took my words out of context. They quoted, uh, all these different, uh, gender transition doctors and saying that there's no science behind this, and the science behind it being totally fair and totally equal. It's just not. And people know it. Everyone knows it.

Maajid Nawaz 1:05:06 They couldn't, they couldn't put Cris Cyborg against this guy and give him a run for his money? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 (laughs)

Maajid Nawaz 1:05:10 Wrong weight class? Or...

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 That's the other way.

Maajid Nawaz 1:05:12 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 That's the other thing. And we're dealing with a similar situation like that in Texas. I don't know if you've know about the girl who was- she was born a girl, she's transitioning to a boy in high school.

Maajid Nawaz 1:05:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 Taking testosterone. But in Texas, they only allow her to compete as a girl, so she's dominated the-

Maajid Nawaz 1:05:27 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 ... Texas state wrestling championship two years in a row.

Sam Harris 1:05:29 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:05:29 And it's horrific because she's on steroids. She's on testosterone, he now.

Sam Harris 1:05:34 And they usually test for this kinda stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 Doesn't matter because they're testing chromosomal-

Sam Harris 1:05:38 Because she's the exception. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 Yes. She's a woman. She was born a woman, right? She was born a girl. So because the fact that she's transitioning to be a boy, they don't give a shit. You're a woman, you're not gonna wrestle against men. You're a girl, you're not gonna wrest- wrestle against boys. So they have allowed her under extreme protest. I mean, it's terrible. She wants to compete, or he, I should say, wants to compete as a boy.

Maajid Nawaz 1:05:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 They won't let him. They say, "No, you were born a girl, you have to compete as a girl." So when he competes, everybody boos.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:03 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 It's awful. It's fucking awful. I mean, it's, it's, it's really devastating.

Sam Harris 1:06:07 And so that, that- question for you. That way around, if it's female to male transition-

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:12 ... uh, a somebody that used to be a woman that transitions to a man and wants to compete with the men, they don't have an advantage, do they?

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 They don't. No, they don't have an adv-

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:19 If they are allowed to compete with them.

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 They're at, they're at a disadvantage.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:21 So if they win in that context-

Joe Rogan 1:06:23 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:23 ... they've actually done really good.

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:24 Right, so it's-

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 And it's poss- Look, women can beat men.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 I mean, it happens all the time in jujitsu. There's, uh ... especially in jujitsu, in particular, because it's such a technique-based art.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 Uh, but it is possible. There's a, there's also a woman named Germaine de Randamie who is a world-class mixed martial artist who is multiple time world Muay Thai champion who fought a man and knocked him out. It's a crazy video.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:43 Oh, I should've watched that then.

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 She fought a real man, KO'd him with a straight right.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 It's, it is possible for them to win if their skill level is so far superior-

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 ... that it overcomes the inherent strength advantages.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 But a woman-to-male transition would be at a severe disadvantage against a natural male.

Maajid Nawaz 1:06:59 So would you be ... So i- in that Texas case, they clearly have it wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:07:03 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:03 They should allow, they should allow him to, to compete with the men.

Joe Rogan 1:07:06 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:06 And would you be ... Whereas I can f- I think all three of us probably instinctively would resist the notion that a female, uh, that a male-to-female athlete competes with other females because they'd have an advantage.

Joe Rogan 1:07:17 I would resist that, yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:18 But would you be for a female-to-male athlete competing with men?

Joe Rogan 1:07:23 Yes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:23 Because I don't think there's an advantage.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:24 There's no hon- Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:25 Yeah.

1:07:25 There's no advantage. But here's the problem.

Sam Harris 1:07:27 And that ... and the co- and the consent is sort of running in the other direction.

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:30 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Harris 1:07:30 She is continually putting herself or he is putting her- himself-

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 Right.

Sam Harris 1:07:33 ... in harm's way knowingly.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:36 And I'm not opposed to a woman fighting a man if she so chooses.

Sam Harris 1:07:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 Like I'm not opposed to bull riding.

Sam Harris 1:07:41 Yeah.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:41 If you wanna ... I'm not y- you know, lobbying to get bull riding outlawed. But if you wanna be so fucking stupid that you climb on top of a 2,000-pound angry animal-

Sam Harris 1:07:50 Mm-hmm.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:50 ... go for it.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 Right.

1:07:51 You should be able to do whatever you want. I think you should be able to jump out of fairly good air- airplanes.

Maajid Nawaz 1:07:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 And if you want to parachute, you should be able to risk your life parachuting.

Sam Harris 1:07:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:59 The difference lies in just massive advantages.

Sam Harris 1:08:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:03 There's a massive advantage in transitioning from male to female. Female to male, here's the other problem. Female to male, you have to take testosterone. You can't legally take testosterone and compete. It's been a g- a giant issue in mixed martial arts because for the longest time there was a loophole, and the loophole was testosterone therapy, and they were allowing testosterone replacement therapy for male athletes that were either older or it's ... it was a, it was a symptom of having pituitary gland damage-

Sam Harris 1:08:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 ... which comes from head trauma, which come ... which means really essentially your career should be over.

Sam Harris 1:08:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:37 Your, your body's not producing hormones correctly. And that's a very common issue with people that have been in war, people that have been blown up by IEDs, people that have been hit a lot. Even soccer players a lot of times-

Sam Harris 1:08:49 Wow. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:49 ... show, uh, diminished levels of testosterone and growth hormone because of pituitary gland damage. So you wouldn't even allow that. So a, a female to male would be in a whole nother problem in combat sports because it's not legal for you to take testosterone and compete.

Sam Harris 1:09:04 Mm-hmm.

Maajid Nawaz 1:09:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, right.

Sam Harris 1:09:05 Well, to bring this full circle back to me sitting at the pool, destroy- about to destroy my vacation on Twitter.

Maajid Nawaz 1:09:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:10 So how long did you spend working on this article? D-

Sam Harris 1:09:12 Well, no. The thing ... So again, this was, this was like-

Maajid Nawaz 1:09:14 Your wife must have hated you, man. (laughs)

Sam Harris 1:09:16 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, brutal.

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 How bad? How much was she mad at you?

Sam Harris 1:09:17 Um, well, uh, it ... uh, it was kind of the perfect storm, but there were, there were a few things that, that, um, relieved the pressure. One is there was another family from our school, so they're like my, my daughter had a friend.

Joe Rogan 1:09:28 Oh.

Sam Harris 1:09:28 There was another couple-

Joe Rogan 1:09:29 That's nice.

Sam Harris 1:09:30 ... that we, that my wife could socialize with. And having another couple there forced me to sort of put on my social face at dinner and, and, and it, I mean, it's not, it's not-

Maajid Nawaz 1:09:39 While you're itching to look at your tweet feed. (laughs)

Sam Harris 1:09:41 Yes. But, but the thing is-

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 (laughs)

Sam Harris 1:09:41 ... it's actually not-

Maajid Nawaz 1:09:42 You ever have that feeling? It's horrible.

Joe Rogan 1:09:43 Yeah, yeah. "I don't really wanna be here. I wanna look at my-"

Sam Harris 1:09:45 Yeah. (laughs)

Maajid Nawaz 1:09:45 That's so horrible. (laughs)

Sam Harris 1:09:47 But it's ... I mean, it, it's, it's not. I mean, to s- to, to say it, to describe it that way as putting on your social face, it, it actually changes your psychology. I mean, like if you have, if you, if you have to drop your problem in order to be a normal sane person with people you don't know all that well, you're actually a happier, more normal person. If it had just been me and my wife at dinner while I'm dealing with this blowup, I would just, you know, it just never would have ... the cloud wouldn't, wouldn't have left. So anyway, um, I, uh, I was try- so I was trying not to engage, and so I didn't wanna have to write anything new to deal with this, the, this, uh, what I viewed as just a, an egregious attack on, on my, uh, intellectual and moral integrity. Uh, and so when I saw this article from Klein, um, I realized I had this email exchange with him, uh, at the end of which I said, "Listen, if you, if you continue to slander me," this had, had been like a year previously because there had been this-

Maajid Nawaz 1:10:39 This is the exchange he released.

Sam Harris 1:10:40 I, I released this e-

Maajid Nawaz 1:10:41 You released it. Right, okay, yeah.

Sam Harris 1:10:42 So, so I said ... but I said at the end of this exchange, "If you continue to slander me and if you misrepresent the reasons why we didn't do a podcast," because we, uh, we had, had talked publicly about maybe sorting this out on a podcast a year ago, but I, I found the exchange with him by email so ... in such bad faith, I found him so evasive and dishonest and a- and, you know, just plain ideological ping pong, as you said, uh, and not actually engaging my points, um, that I said, "Listen, if you, if you lie about this and you keep slandering me, I'm just gonna pu- publish this email because, because I think the world should see how you operate as a journalist and as an editor." Uh, like he had, he had declined to publish a far more mainstream opinion defending me and Murray in, in Vox. I mean, he ... it was just, it was, it was, it was truly, you know, slanderous and misleading everything he's published on this topic, and he has a huge platform d- to, by which to do it. So-

Joe Rogan 1:11:33 Which I enjoy.

Sam Harris 1:11:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:34 I really like Vox.

Sam Harris 1:11:35 Oh, yeah, no. I mean, if I ... uh, yeah. I've, I've read Vox with pleasure as well. But it, it is, it, it, you know ... once you see how the sausage gets made on many of these things-