Joe Rogan Experience #1109 - Matthew Walker

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   And we're live. What's…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      And we're live. What's going on, mate? Did you sleep well last night?

   2. MWMatthew Walker0:10

      I did.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      (laughs)

   4. MWMatthew Walker0:11

      I didn't sleep too badly. Uh, I mean, hotels are a tough thing. Um, and we actually know the science that, um, one-half of your brain will actually not sleep as deeply than the other when you're sleeping in a, an unusual room like a hotel room.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      Really? That's what fucks me up.

   6. MWMatthew Walker0:27

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      'Cause when I'm on the road, you know, I'll do three different hotels in a week 'cause I'll do like, a Thursday, Friday, Saturday like, with gigs, and then by the time Sunday rolls around, I'm a mess.

   8. MWMatthew Walker0:38

      In rough shape?

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:39

      Yeah.

   10. MWMatthew Walker0:39

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Is that what it is?

   12. MWMatthew Walker0:40

       Yeah. And it's a, you know, it's a threat detection thing that-

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Ah.

   14. MWMatthew Walker0:43

       Um, I mean if you look at other species, they can do this much more impressively than we can. So dolphins or any sort of sea-dwelling mammal can actually sleep with half a brain. So one-half of their brain goes into deep sleep. The other half is wide awake.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       That's how people at the DMV do it, those people that work at the Department of Motor Vehicles.

   16. MWMatthew Walker1:04

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       They're, they're, they work half asleep. You ever meet 'em?

   18. MWMatthew Walker1:08

       I haven't, no. But-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       Just, just teasing you.

   20. MWMatthew Walker1:10

       I will, I, I, I-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       If you're DMV listening going, "Fuck you, man. Next time you come in to get your license renewed."

   22. MWMatthew Walker1:15

       There's my next NIH grant, I think, uh, looking at the DMV and sleep. But yeah, we-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       TSA workers, same thing, same-

   24. MWMatthew Walker1:21

       Same, same type of human.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       That, I've come across.

   26. MWMatthew Walker1:23

       Ah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       Yeah. Them too. I'm just kidding, fuckers. Relax. Um, so when you're in a hotel room, what is happening that your half your brain is not really sleeping?

   28. MWMatthew Walker1:34

       Yeah, so there's different stages of sleep. There are two principle types. One is non-rapid eye movement sleep, or non-REM sleep. The other is REM sleep, uh, which is also known as dream sleep.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Right.

   30. MWMatthew Walker1:45

       Um, and non-rapid eye movement sleep is further divided into four separate stages, um, which are unimaginatively called stages one through four. (laughs) We're a creative bunch as-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      remember that and repeat it and in their mind convince themselves that that's what happened. Because I've heard people tell stories about the past and they're- they vary wildly from what is absolutely true, like- like factual, you could check it, you could research it, you know what the facts are. But in their mind, it's very different. And I think that it's entirely possible that what people are doing is remembering the recollection of these memories and how they told them, and then also sort of people elaborate things to make themselves look better or make the situation look more dramatic. But with dreams, that doesn't make any sense. So I was o- I'm always trying to figure out, like, what is it about a dream where sometimes I can remember the dream, and sometimes it's so vivid when I wake up, I'm like, "Holy shit-"

   2. MWMatthew Walker15:51

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:51

      "... that was crazy. What a dream." And then I forget it 20 minutes later.

   4. MWMatthew Walker15:55

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:55

      What is that?

   6. MWMatthew Walker15:56

      So firstly, I mean, one theory of dreaming is that it's just simply a reconstruction when you wake up. So you have these-

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:03

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MWMatthew Walker16:03

      ... fragments of activity and what your cortex does when it wakes up is what your cortex is designed to do when you're awake normally, which is try to package everything and make a good story, make logical fit out of the world. That's one theory. I- I don't believe that, though. Um, your- your point is a really interesting one. Do I remember my dreams? Um, that doesn't necessarily mean I forget my dreams. And what I mean by that is accessibility versus availability. So have you ever had-

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:32

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MWMatthew Walker16:32

       ... that experience where you've woken up, you thought, "I was definitely dreaming. I can't quite grab it," you know, it just- and it's gone.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:39

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MWMatthew Walker16:39

       And then two days later, you're in the shower, you're sort of washing yourself, you see a bottle of shampoo, you see the label, and it just triggers the unlocking of that dream memory and it sort of comes flooding back.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MWMatthew Walker16:51

       Or someone says something to you and you think, "Oh, that was the dream."

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       Yeah.

   16. MWMatthew Walker16:54

       What that tells me as a brain scientist is that the memory is there, it's preserved, it's available, but what happens when- m- most of the time when we wake up is that we lose the IP address to the memory.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       Oh.

   18. MWMatthew Walker17:07

       So it's present, but it's not consciously accessible. Available, not accessible. If that's true, what it means is that this type of information we know can have non-conscious impacts on our behavior all the time. There's great brain science about this non-conscious memory processing. It's possible that we store every one of our dreams, we just don't consciously have accessibility to it. But nevertheless, it's changing how we behave, how we feel each and every day. No evidence for it. It's a theory I'm still wanting to test. But that's possible, too. And it's only that anecdote where I can think, "I just don't remember the dream. I've forgotten it." I don't think that may be true. It may still be there, I just need to find the keys to a- sort of access that memory.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:54

       What's stunning to me is how quickly the dream evaporates, the memory of the dream. W- uh, i- in relation to, uh, an actual experience. Like, if we went outside and we saw some lady walk up to some guy and kick him in the balls, we'd be like, "Whoa!" We would remember that.... and that you, you, you'd be able to tell your friends. Like, "Yeah, some lady just randomly walked up to some guy and kicked him in the balls."

   20. MWMatthew Walker18:16

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:17

       Like, we would remember that. And you would remember it 10 minutes later, you'd remember it in an hour, you'd remember it yes- next day, you'd, you'd be telling your friends. "Yeah, she just walked right up to him. I remember it like it was yesterday." 'Cause it was, right?

   22. MWMatthew Walker18:28

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:28

       But a dream can be 10 minutes ago, and you wake up and, "Dude, it was King Kong and he was, he was swinging from my ceiling. And somehow or another he, he fit in the room, but the room got bigger." And you, you have these crazy dreams, and then 20 minutes later, you forget all of it. Like, what is happening there?

   24. MWMatthew Walker18:47

       So one, one current explanation is that the chemistry of the brain when you go into dream sleep is radically different.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:54

       Yeah.

   26. MWMatthew Walker18:55

       So one of the chemicals called noradrenaline in the brain, which downstairs in the body, its sister chemical is called adrenaline. Noradrenaline actually plummets to the lowest levels. It's actually, it's a stress chemical in the brain, or it's one of them. That gets shut off during dream sleep, which is-

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:11

       Even if you're panicking?

   28. MWMatthew Walker19:12

       ... remarkable.

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:12

       Like what if you fall off a building?

   30. MWMatthew Walker19:14

       Well, what's interesting is that that chemical is low whilst you're having that dream, but when you wake up, uh, from those, and some people often wake up, that's when you have the spike of noradrenaline.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      a recollection. Um, like, I would be like in bed with my girlfriend and I'd wake her up too, you know, 'cause I'd just jolt.

   2. MWMatthew Walker30:07

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:07

      Like I wouldn't throw a full kick, but my body would move like I was going to. You know, like I would turn my hips and my leg would extend. It was ... My body was ... It was ... I, I've, I attribute it to the, the idea that it's so extreme, like the activity of fighting is so extreme, that my, my m-... brain had kind of like hyper-charged itself to compete at this very high level, you know. And that this was like so unusual that it was, it was almost at red alert all the time and maybe even trying to work out patterns-

   4. MWMatthew Walker30:41

      Yep.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:42

      ... while it was sleeping, yeah?

   6. MWMatthew Walker30:43

      That's exactly the evidence that we have now.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:45

      Oh.

   8. MWMatthew Walker30:46

      So for things like motor skills or even rats running around a maze where they will learn specific sort of, you know, um, navigational pathways and even skilled motor movements. What you can do is you can place these electrodes into centers of the, of the brain. We, we work in a... My sleep, Sleep Center works on humans, but other people have done these, uh, studies in rats. And you implant electrodes and you measure the brain cells firing as the rat is running around the maze. And let's say that you can sort of play little tones for each brain cell. So they're running around the maze and, and you can listen to the brain cells learning the signature of that maze. So it goes (singing) . What was amazing is that when you let those rats sleep, but you keep listening to the brain, what you hear is (singing) as if the brain is actually, and in fact it is, it's replaying the exact same sequence, the memory sequence that it was learning whilst it was awake-

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:42

      Wow.

   10. MWMatthew Walker31:42

       ... it's replaying but at a speed that is 20 times faster.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:47

       Whoa.

   12. MWMatthew Walker31:48

       So, you know, it, uh, now we start to get into this Inception world, and I don't mean to 'cause the scientific data, it really, uh, we're not sort of in that territory. But, you know, that notion of time compression and time dilation that Christopher Nolan played so well with in that-

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:02

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MWMatthew Walker32:03

       ... movie, we can see that at the level of brain cell firing in rats as they're learning these mazes. And it comes back to what you're saying, which is that the better that they rehearse those skilled memories, when you wake them up and test them the next day, that predicts how much better they are in terms of their performance. So it's not just that you learn, you go to sleep, and you replay, and you hit the save button on these n- new memories. You actually sculpt out those memories and you improve them. And we've done studies with motor skill learning, critical for athletic performance. And practice does not make perfect. Practice with a night of sleep is what makes perfect because you come back the next day and you're 20% to 30% better in terms of your skilled performance than where you were at the end of your practice session the day before.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       Wow! Wow.

   16. MWMatthew Walker32:54

       I mean, sleep is the greatest legal performance-enhancing drug that most people are probably neglecting in sport.

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:01

       Wow. And not just for your physical performance, but actually skill learning.

   18. MWMatthew Walker33:05

       That's right. Skill learning, memory, and then also, you know, downstairs in the body, all of the recuperative benefits. Um, and you can flip the coin, by the way. If you're getting six hours of sleep or less, your time to physical exhaustion drops by s- up to 30%. So you could spend all of your time training for a 10-round fight, perfect condition, but then I put you on six hours of sleep the night before, you're now gonna be physically exhausted by round seven rather than round 10.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:34

       Wow. But, well, and that's a really hard thing for fighters 'cause they have a very difficult time sleeping the night before a big fight.

   20. MWMatthew Walker33:40

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:40

       It's very, very difficult 'cause-

   22. MWMatthew Walker33:41

       Hugely problematic.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:42

       ... there's anxiety and-

   24. MWMatthew Walker33:43

       Yep.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:43

       ... and, uh, I would imagine it's gotta be... I mean, it's probably gonna take a t- a huge toll on them, and it's probably be a, a huge benefit if they can somehow or another bypass all that and just relax and learn how to relax and learn how to actually sleep.

   26. MWMatthew Walker33:59

       I mean, it's, I think, you know, it's one of... We're constantly trying to hack the physiological system, especially in elite sports these days 'cause, you know, small fractions of a percent of gain can make a huge difference.

   27. JRJoe Rogan34:10

       Well, that sounds like 30%.

   28. MWMatthew Walker34:11

       Sleep is-

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:11

       That's a monster.

   30. MWMatthew Walker34:12

       ... huge, yeah. I mean, your time to f- yeah, sort of not just physical exhaustion, but, you know, the lactic acid builds up quicker the less and less that you sleep. Your ability of the lungs to actually expire carbon dioxide and inhale oxygen decreases the less sleep that you have.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   (laughs) …

   1. MWMatthew Walker45:00

      and a pencil and he had a- a chair with armrests and he would pick up two steel ball bearings and take a metal saucepan and turn it upside down, place it underneath the arm of the chair and put the two steel bal- steel ball bearings in his hands then he would rest back and he would start to fall asleep. And so he didn't fall too far into sleep. What would happen is at some point, his muscle tone would relax, they would release the steel ball bearings, they would crash on the saucepan, wake him up and then he would write down all of the creative ideas that he was having.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:33

      (laughs)

   3. MWMatthew Walker45:33

      Isn't that brilliant?

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:35

      Wow.

   5. MWMatthew Walker45:35

      So no wonder, yeah, you're never told to sort of stay awake on a problem and in every language that I've inquired about to date, um, French, Swahili, that phrase, sleeping on a problem, seems to exist which must mean that this benefit of dream sleep transcends cultural boundaries. I should note, um, I think it's important, that the French, the French translation is much closer to y- you sleep with a problem. We, the British, you say you sleep on a problem. The French, you say you sleep with a problem. I think it says so much about the romantic difference between the- the British and the French, you know? They're the sort of-

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:08

      Yeah, the French trying to fuck everything.

   7. MWMatthew Walker46:10

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:10

      Trying to fuck their problems. (laughs)

   9. MWMatthew Walker46:12

      I'll lose my British passport for saying that, but that's okay. Uh-

   10. JRJoe Rogan46:15

       (laughs)

   11. MWMatthew Walker46:15

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:15

       You won't. I will, but I won't either.

   13. MWMatthew Walker46:17

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       I think it's just a joke. Um, that's fascinating that Einstein figured that out too, that he literally had like a- a whole routine. That he would drop this ball, it would hit it, bang, and wake up and start writing, like-

   15. MWMatthew Walker46:29

       Self-medicating.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:30

       ... imagine being in the room. I would love to be in the room watching Einstein do that. It must've been fascinating.

   17. MWMatthew Walker46:34

       Oh, sorry, I said Einstein. It's Edison. My goodness.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:37

       Oh!

   19. MWMatthew Walker46:37

       I'm an idiot. Edison.

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       Oh.

   21. MWMatthew Walker46:39

       Sorry, sorry, sorry.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:39

       Okay, that changes everything.

   23. MWMatthew Walker46:40

       That's probably the- the rough night's sleep.

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:41

       Um, wasn't Edison a thief though? Didn't he steal everything from Tesla?

   25. MWMatthew Walker46:45

       Uh, I think there's arguments to be made-

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:47

       Stole a lot of shit.

   27. MWMatthew Walker46:47

       ... uh, but... I mean, he has a lot to answer for, by the way, in terms of the way that we're sleeping. You know, he electri- he was the first person to electrify society.

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:54

       Ah.

   29. MWMatthew Walker46:55

       Not necessarily create the- the light bulb, but he really, you know, gave, shifted us from a point where now we controlled the night in terms of illumination and li-... We are a dark-deprived society in this modern era and that's one of the things that is keeping us awake at night, a lack of darkness.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:12

       Yeah, not just that, but also our inability to see the stars anymore. The- the light pollution that we have at night. I think it's, I think it's a giant shift in perspective. Like, uh, have you ever, you ever been to a, uh, planetarium or, um, an observatory, like one of those, uh-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Whoa. …

   1. MWMatthew Walker1:00:00

      decided to classify any form of nighttime shift work as a probable carcinogen.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      Whoa.

   3. MWMatthew Walker1:00:06

      Yeah. So jobs that may induce cancer because of a disruption of your sleep-wake rhythms.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:11

      Are there other correlating factors? Like, don't people that sleep less or work into the night, don't they eat more and eat more shitty food?

   5. MWMatthew Walker1:00:19

      They do both of those things.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

      Yeah.

   7. MWMatthew Walker1:00:21

      Yeah. And we know exactly the pathways. So there are two hormones that control your appetite and your weight. Um, one is called leptin, the other is called ghrelin. Um, they sound like hobbits, but they're not-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:33

      (laughs)

   9. MWMatthew Walker1:00:33

      ... they're real, they're real hormone, they're real chemicals.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:35

       They do sound like hobbits.

   11. MWMatthew Walker1:00:36

       Um, yeah, it's bizarre.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       (laughs)

   13. MWMatthew Walker1:00:37

       But, um, so leptin is the chemical that tells your brain, um, you're full, you're satiated, you don't want to eat anymore. Ghrelin does the opposite. It's the hunger hormone. It says you want to eat more, you're not satisfied with your food. If I take people, and these studies have been done, we've done some of these studies too, and you just put you, uh, a group of healthy people on four or five hours of sleep for, let's say one week, and you look at those two hormones, they go in, unfortunately, opposite directions. So leptin that says you're full, stop eating, that gets suppressed by a lack of sleep. Ghrelin, the hunger hormone, that gets ramped up. So firstly, people who are sleeping just five to six hours a night will on average eat somewhere between 200 to 300 extra calories each day because of their under-slept state. Add that up, it's about 70,000 extra calories a year. It's about 10 to 15 pounds of obese mass each year, which, uh, for me is starting to sound familiar. Um, but what we also know is that it's not just that when you are under-slept you eat more, you eat more of the wrong things.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MWMatthew Walker1:01:46

       So if... And these, the, the great scientific work, if you give people this f- sort of finger buffet and they can eat whatever they want and it contains all of the different food groups and you sleep deprive them, or you give them a full eight hours of sleep, yes, they start to overeat by somewhere around about 450 calories with total sleep deprivation, but what they go after is heavy hitting carbohydrates and simple sugars, processed food. And they stay away from the healthy sort of leafy greens, nuts, proteins, et cetera.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:18

       Mm-hmm.

   17. MWMatthew Walker1:02:18

       So you're not just eating more, you are eating more of the wrong things. And that's why a lack of sleep has such a strong obesogenic profile to it. And you can take a step back too, and you say, well, if you look at the rise of obesity over the past 70 years, it's just this upward exponential increase. And if you plot on the same graph the amount of sleep that society is getting, it goes in the opposite direction. As sleep time has declined, obesity rates have increased. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the obesity epidemic is simply a sleep problem. It's not. It's a problem of us being sedentary, processed foods, larger food serving sizes. If you take those factors though, by themselves, they cannot explain the increase in obesity. Other things are at play. Is sleep one of them? Now we know it is. It's a critical factor in the obesogenic, uh, epidemic.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:03:11

       I know from personal experience when I'm tired, I always gravitate towards the worst choices. Uh, it's, for me, it's late night cheeseburgers.

   19. MWMatthew Walker1:03:18

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:03:18

       You know, Wendy's at two o'clock in the morning or whatever. Um, what happens if you get naps? Like say if you only have five hours of sleep, but you take a two-hour nap during the day, does everything make up?

   21. MWMatthew Walker1:03:32

       Yes and no. So what you're talking about there is, uh, what we call prophylactic napping, (laughs) which is sort of strategically trying to help combat-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:03:40

       Yeah.

   23. MWMatthew Walker1:03:41

       ... your deficiency of sleep. Naps can actually give you benefits. We've done some of these studies where they improve, you know, your learning, your memory, your alertness, your concentration, especially your emotional regulation too. Sleep is critical for emotional first aid and mental health. However, you can't keep using naps to self-medicate sort of short sleep of, you know, four or five hours each night. Um, we know that the system itself, your, your brain has no capacity to regain all of the sleep that it's lost. It will try to sleep back some of that debt. But what we've discovered, let's say I take you tonight, I deprive you of sleep, eight hours lost. Then I give you all of the recovery sleep that you want on a second, third, or fourth night. You will sleep longer, but you will only get back maybe just, uh, three or four hours of that lost total eight.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:04:33

       Mm-hmm.

   25. MWMatthew Walker1:04:34

       So sleep is not like the bank. You can't accumulate a debt and then hope to pay it off at the weekend. And so there is no credit system within the brain for sleep. You can't bank it. Which is odd, by the way. I, I would love that system, you know?

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:04:51

       Yeah, then you would know what you owed.

   27. MWMatthew Walker1:04:52

       You would know what you owed. But I s- I could also just know when I'm going into a state of, you know, sleep debt and I could build up some credit.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:05:00

       Ah.

   29. MWMatthew Walker1:05:00

       And there's precedent for this, by the way. There is a system like that in the brain, it's called the fat cell because there were times during our evolutionary past where we faced famine and we faced feast. And so the body learned to adapt to that and said, when you have feast, store it up as caloric energy in these things called adipose cells, fat cells. And then when you go into famine, you can spend that caloric credit. Where is that in the brain? Why don't we have that? The reason is very simple. Human beings are the only species that deliberately deprive themselves of sleep for no apparent reason. In other words-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:05:37

       (laughs)
6. 1:15:00 – 1:16:37

   There's a lot of…

   1. MWMatthew Walker1:15:00

      safe and to get them well-educated and get information into the brain and nurture them and, you know, create them to be the next generation, early school start times, you know, are not the thing to do. Um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:12

      There's a lot of lazy kids out there that are going, "Yes!"

   3. MWMatthew Walker1:15:14

      Yeah. Well-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:15

      "Preach on, Doctor. Preach."

   5. MWMatthew Walker1:15:17

      I mean, the data-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:18

      (laughs)

   7. MWMatthew Walker1:15:18

      ... you know, they looked at these academic things too. You know, one of these, another example comes from, um, Edina in Minnesota, and they shifted school start times from, uh, I think it was, uh, 7:25 to, um, 8:30 in the morning. And they looked at SAT scores. And in the year before they made the time ch- change, the top 10% performing students got an average SAT score of 1,288, which is a great score. The following year, when they were going to school now at 8:30 rather than 7:25, the average SAT score was 1,500.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:52

      Wow.

   9. MWMatthew Walker1:15:52

      That's a 212 point increase, which is non-trivial.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:15:57

       Wow. That's gigantic.

   11. MWMatthew Walker1:15:58

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:15:59

       Yeah. I just, yeah, I think it's the school time qu- in correlation with the work time.

   13. MWMatthew Walker1:16:04

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:05

       That it's very difficult to get people off of that.

   15. MWMatthew Walker1:16:07

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:07

       You know?

   17. MWMatthew Walker1:16:07

       And, and that's part of what, you know, modernity has done, we're, we're working longer hours and also we're commuting for longer durations of time. So therefore, people are having to wake up earlier, they come home later. And the one thing that gets squeezed, sort of like vice grips, is this thing called sleep. You know, and the decimation of sleep throughout industrialized nations as a consequence is having a catastrophic impact on our health and our wellness and the safety and the education of our children.

Episode duration: 1:55:32