EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,021 words- 0:01 – 1:28
Keto science influences: Dr. Peter Attia, micronutrients, and questioning assumptions
- JRJoe Rogan
Five, four, three, two, one. (snaps fingers) Boom. And we're off. What's up, brother? How are you?
- ZBZach Bitter
Good, good. Thanks for having me on.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. Nice to meet you, man. You know, it's- it's funny that you just brought up Dr. Attia. You know, when we were- we were- you were saying that you download the podcast, you were saying-
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "I gotta get that guy on."
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, yeah. It was funny. I, I was ... It auto-downloads, and that one popped up, and I remember thinking about a week before that. I was like, well, when I- when we first scheduled this one, I was like, "I gotta tell Joe about Dr. Attia." He was one of the kinda first guys I really followed when I kinda dove into kind of the high-fat approach to, to nutrition. So, um, yeah, he's a fascinating guy who's, who's a great listen. I had to listen to it, like, twice, so. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, he's a weird guy.
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
He's one of those guys where you, you talk to him and you think, "Oh, this is like a normal, really nice guy." And then as he starts getting into the medical aspect of things, you go, "Oh, okay."
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"You're a fucking super genius."
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, yeah. He's smart.
- JRJoe Rogan
He tricks you. (laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. I remember one of the first things he ever said that really kinda resonated with me was, I think someone was asking him about, like, what the effects are with a ketogenic diet in terms of, like, micronutrients and what maybe he'd be missing based on kinda like that normal profile of what you're supposed to get. And, and he was just like, "You know, it's, it's interesting 'cause most those studies and recommendations are based off of basically a standard American diet or a higher-carb diet." So he's like, "Well, you might just not need the same. We need to do more." And he's always looking to kind of push the envelope a bit, so cool guest for sure.
- 1:28 – 3:18
From “average” runner to ultramarathons: early races, prize money, and rapid progression
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and, uh, you know, I'm fascinated by you, and I'm fascinated by anybody who does the kind of shit that you do.
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, uh, please explain to people all the different ultra-marathons you've done and, like, what you've accomplished.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting because, like, I still kinda see myself as a pretty average runner. Because, like, um, I mean, I competed in high school and made state cross-country and state track and that kind of thing, um, for a small school, and then I went to a small division three school and was, you know, pretty much, you know, average amongst a real good program at the D3 level. And, uh, I always just did kinda like running longer, though. So, um, like, once I got done with college, I kinda decided, "Well, let's, let's see what's longer than some of those traditional, like, collegiate races of like 5K to 10 kilometers." And, uh, you know, I started kinda just dabbling with that stuff, and then in, in 2010, I think, uh, I actually did my first ultra-marathon, you know, partly because I was just, like, looking around and there turned out to be one in the state. I was li- I was living in Wisconsin at the time, and, uh, there was one that, uh, was kind of in my neck of the woods, and I actually had just decided to go back to grad school, and that one had a $1000 prize purse on it. And I was like, "You know what? If I, if I can win that, 1000 bucks go a long way during grad school." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
So I did that one, and I ended up winning it, and it, uh, it definitely hooked me. It was like the type of thing where I was like, "I wanna do more of these." And, um, by 2011, I kinda jumped all in at the end of the year and, and did three 50-milers in, I think it was about a, a nine-week timeframe.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- ZBZach Bitter
And, uh ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so crazy.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, and I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat)
- ZBZach Bitter
... it gets crazier. There's, there's some freaks out there. Um, there's guys who will do, like, a couple in a weekend and stuff like that, so. (laughs) I mean, it- it never ends. Um, but yeah, you know, it was one of those things where after that, I was totally hooked. So, uh-
- 3:18 – 9:24
Why ultras are addictive: success, long-run preference, and solving problems mid-race
- JRJoe Rogan
What is it that got you hooked?
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, (sighs) you know, it, it had to be partly just a little bit of success, you know. I wasn't necessarily used to winning, so ... Like, I mean, I've- I had good races and good times relative to what you probably see, like, in an average person, but, you know, when I went to like a competitive 5K, competitive marathon or something like that, um, you know, I wasn't gonna win unless it was kind of a local race. So, kinda finding ... You know, it's like anything, I guess. You kinda gravitate to what you feel you're good at, and then that kinda piques your interest. Um, so that was part of it. The other part was just, uh, I really enjoyed doing the long run. Like, when you break up kind of like a training week, you have like a variety of different things. You've got like kind of, you know, base level runs, you've got specific workouts for the distance, and then most training programs, um, are gonna have a long run once a week, and that was the one that was always my favorite. So, wrapping my head around doing a bunch of those a week instead of just one was, was really kind of appealing to me, and when you're putting that much time into whatever you're training for, it's, I think, important to enjoy it. So being able to kinda enjoy the training process a lot was really appealing to me. Um, and, uh, and then it's just the variables. The- when you're out there for that long, there's so many variables to consider, and it's like, it's a blast for me to kinda like work through those, plan for those, and then adjust to them on the fly when you're out there and, you know, things inevitably go wrong or things pop up that you didn't expect. So it's, it's, uh, it's just, uh, it's- it's kinda hard to explain (laughs) , but it- it's, it's weird. One of the things in ultra-marathon running that people always say is like they'll have a race, and even if they have a bad race, say like, "I'm never doing one of these again." And then the next day, they're on a, on the internet looking for another race. So it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
... just this weird thing about it that you don't really know until you do it, but it, it sucks you in (laughs) .
- JRJoe Rogan
That's the case with a lot of people when they talk about things that are like ... That they have to suffer through.
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, I've heard that when guys talk about like those extreme hikes.
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, when they, you know, like they do that ... You know that one that goes from Georgia all the way to Maine? You know that-
- ZBZach Bitter
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... insane hike?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is that called? The Appalachian Trail?
- ZBZach Bitter
Appalachian Trail, yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That they say, "I'll never fucking do that again."
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And then they're like, "Okay, what other, what other hikes can I go?" It's just once the pain, the physical pain, w- dies down, there's something about that challenge that stimulates in people like you and people that are into these really long distance things. Like, there's something about distance. There's something about like, like you were saying, like you weren't the best runner in high school or college, right? But-
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... there's something about the mind of an ultra-marathoner. It's a different mind. The pers- the type of person that can run 100 miles, 200 miles, 238 miles, those type of people, they're different people. And there's like, there's a strength, a mental strength, and the ability to just keep going on and on and on that I'm absolutely fascinated with.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, you know, and it is interesting too 'cause it's, uh, this sport's grown a b- quite a bit in the last decade or so, but it's still very much kind of a niche group, and then when you kinda hang out in that group, you start to kinda normalize it a little bit, I think. (smacks lips) So then you start thinking, like, "Oh, 100 miles, it's just what we do." And then you, you know, you actually try to, like, separate yourself from the fact that you've done a few of those, or separate yourself from the fact that you've been hangin' out with other people who are doing it, and you realize, "Oh, this is actually kind of a weird thing to kinda do as" (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
"as a human nowadays."
- JRJoe Rogan
It's fucking very weird.
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
How many of these things have you won?
- ZBZach Bitter
(smacks lips) Uh, phew, I don't know how many I've won. It, it's ... I think I've done just shy of 50 total now. Um, you know, everything from 50 kilometers to the furthest I've done is 200 kilometers, which is about 125 miles. Um, yeah, (sighs) I, I'd have to look to see how many I've won. It's, it's, it's, it's really goofy 'cause when you start getting into the longer stuff like 100 miles and beyond, you start, at least in my training program, you start to kind of pick smaller races to kinda use as training runs. Um, and some of it, I think, is just because, for me, if I'm gonna go out and do, like, a 30-mile or a 40-mile training run or something like that, it's kinda tedious to do that by yourself and then plan all the logistics of it. So if there's a race nearby and that's not too hard to get to, it's easier just to sign up for that, go and do that. So some of those, you know, I'll, I'll win if they're, if they're small enough, even though I'm not necessarily trying to go for th- you know, go f- all out, so to speak, 'cause I'm hopin' to recover kind of and, and get back into training. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you'll pace yourself at, at one of these local races maybe?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, you know, the way I describe it is, um ... And this is, this is a real hard thing for a lot of people to do, I think. It's, uh, like, you go into a race saying, "This is gonna be a moderately difficult long run, uh, so maybe a little faster than what I would do if I was just gonna do it by myself, like, unsupported," that sort of thing. And then I always tell myself, "80% is the hardest you can go if you wanna be able to come back and start training on time to meet the actual goal or the A race." Um, so when I do those, it's like, it's one of those things where, like, y- you know, who knows? Someone might show up that's, that's, like, as fast as you or maybe a little slower than you normal, and if they're deciding to just hammer it that day, (laughs) they might beat you and you gotta be okay with that. Um, if you're-
- JRJoe Rogan
Does the, the competitive part of you flare up though?
- ZBZach Bitter
For sure. Well, yeah, it does, and that's the hardest part, and that's, I think, the main reason why some people won't do that approach-
- 9:24 – 15:10
Track vs trail ultras: mental strain, logistics, and biomechanical wear-and-tear
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, so, so it's really fascinating. It took me a couple of years to do this before I got into the sport, but once I was in it for a couple of years, I kinda did a little, a little, a little research to see, like, what the deal was with, um, some of the stuff. And the, the funny thing is, like, that type of a distance isn't even unheard of. Uh, they actually, they're ... I forget what the book is called, but, uh, they actually had, in Madison Square Garden, they used to host a six-day event where guys and gals ... I, I'm not sure if gals were doing it back then, but, um, guys for sure, were going there and seeing how far they could run in six days. And, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, I know, crazy. And, uh, I think if I remember right, they would actually ... people were s- betting on them that way and so they'd fill it up. Like, people would come and watch-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- ZBZach Bitter
... this, like, spectacle.
- JRJoe Rogan
When w- what year was this?
- ZBZach Bitter
It was in the late 1800s, I think, is when they started it. I'm not sure when it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Oh, here it is, six-day cycling? Yes. (clears throat) The six-day grind at Madison Square B- Garden. Bicycled race is something I'm sure they probably ran too. Oh, wow, look at this, man.
- ZBZach Bitter
So some crazy person decided to leave the bike at home, I guess. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
This is super old. We're looking at this on YouTube, folks. It says, "Six-day cycling, the six-day grind at Madison Square Garden" and so it's just a track and these people are ... this is old-timey shit. (laughs) These look, this looks like the '30s, right? Yeah. And that guy just went down. And so they're, they're just riding their bike for six days. Oh, shit, when they wipe out ... oh, my God.
- ZBZach Bitter
Oof. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
They probably had terrible brakes back then, right?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. It was their feet. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Probably, right?
- ZBZach Bitter
Or the railing. But yeah, yeah, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wh- so this is, uh, so endurance sports like this are nothing new?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, it's actually fascinating when you, like, kinda look into it 'cause nowadays, uh, in the United States, the trail running scene is definitely way bigger than, like, the road running or certainly the track-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
... the track scene, but that wasn't always the case. If you look back into, like, the '70s and '80s, there was a pretty big surge in ultra-marathon running, uh, for flat, fast stuff. That's where we see a lot of the, the records coming from. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So that's like a track and you run as far and long as you can on a track, like ...
- ZBZach Bitter
Track or a road or f- really flat road.
- JRJoe Rogan
I had Goggins on, David Goggins-
- ZBZach Bitter
Oh, yeah, mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and he was talking about, uh, the first time he did one was on a track.
- ZBZach Bitter
Okay, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just ran in circles on a track, which is almost gotta be more taxing for your mind 'cause you're just seeing the same shit over-
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... and over and over again.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, it's, it's really fascinating to me 'cause I've done, I've done both. I've done 100-milers on the trail and I've done 100 miles on a 400-meter track and, uh, the fascinating thing is it is like what you said. It's almost a different event, where mentally, you're doing everything you can on that track to kinda separate yourself from the actual environment, envision yourself being somewhere else, you know, looking forward to little things, to kinda not necessarily be thinking too far in advance 'cause that can get overwhelming. Whereas when I'm out on the trails, it's like you- you're usually in a pretty pristine, beautiful area, and you can kinda just s- take it as it comes and say, "Oh, cool, now I get to see that," or, "This is a neat area," or, "I like this section," and you look, you look forward to that kinda diversity. Whereas on the track, it's, you know, you see it once and you've seen it every time, um-And then it, you know, it just kinda beats you up mentally from that side of things. Um, but then, you know, there's other things about that too that, that help out, like logistically. Um, when you're on a track for 400 meters, you bring out one person. You put everything you may possibly want on a little table and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 15:10 – 20:30
Why Zach tried keto: sleep disruption, swelling, energy crashes, and “clean” high-carb eating
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, y- what's different between you and a lotta guys, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about this, is that you, you are on a fat-burning diet. You're essentially ... you're on a ketogenic diet-
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and running these races.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. You know, it's, it's a little interesting because the way I kinda ... l- at least the way I came into it, like I explored the ketogenic diet mainly because I started noticing some things-
- JRJoe Rogan
Try to pull this thing up, like-
- ZBZach Bitter
Oh, sorry.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's okay. No worries about it.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, yeah. So I, I started, um, kind of exploring the ketogenic diet back in late 2011 because I started noticing some, some goofy things going on with my body from, from the, from the tr- high level of training and then, and then the racing. And, um, that was right around that same time I did those three 50-milers in, in nine weeks.
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd you notice?
- ZBZach Bitter
Uh, y- I would wake up, like three or four times at night, and then, like I'd have to, like pee all the time at night. And I'd have, like swelling in my ankles and stuff. A lot of just, like huge energy swings throughout the day. Like I would ... You know, I was, I was a teacher at the time, so I remember thinking, like every day at like 1:00 or 2:00, I coulda laid down and take a nap on spot if I had, had the opportunity to. (laughs) So it was just like a lotta weird things that I thought was pretty n- abnormal for a th- 25-year-old male at the time. And, um, and so it was kinda becoming clear to me that what I was doing was either unsustainable or the way I was doing it was unsustainable. And, you know, I was really intrigued by the sport, and I didn't really wanna necessarily s- back off of that if I didn't have to. So that's when I kinda started to explore nutrition and diet and things like that. And, um, it, I, I was very much following what I woulda considered a healthy diet before that at the time. It was, it was high-carbohydrate, but it was like what you would, you know, think of as a healthy high-carbohydrate diet with like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what was a normal meal?
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, you know, I'd wake up, and I'd- it'd usually go for a run and then have, like some oatmeal, raisins, maybe some fruit or something like that. Some, some eggs or something with, with that in the morning.
- JRJoe Rogan
So not junk food, just high carbohydrates.
- ZBZach Bitter
No, it was clean. It was like clean, like you know, you know what you say, they say, like get your whole grains, fruits, vegetables.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
That sort of thing. I definitely, you know, focused heavily on that and made sure I wasn't eating, like junk ch- junk food. I wasn't going through fast food restaurants or eating Oreos and Bon Bons and that sort of thing, (laughs) so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, so it was kinda interesting to me to think, like, "Okay, I, I didn't really realize that it was necessarily the nutritional side of things." Uh, like it wasn't, it wasn't like a big slap in the face in the sense that, "Oh, I just gotta cut out the junk," 'cause like y- according to most people, I wasn't eating junk. I was eating-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ZBZach Bitter
... really good food. Um, so, you know, that's when I kinda got introduced to some folks like, uh, Dr. Volek and Dr. Phinny, who were kind of, I guess, I guess, they're pioneers of like the, this latest wave of kinda the high-fat approach. And, um, you know, they were ... uh, I started reading their books, listening to podcasts and things like that. And, and it, you know, it was interesting 'cause I, I was, I was training upwards of 20 hours a week at the time. And, you know, I started kinda thinking, like, "Uh, h- how much time am I gonna invest in, (laughs) in just running?" You know, "How can I kinda kill two birds with one stone?" And, and that's kinda when I discovered podcasts and thought, "S- this is sweet. I can learn something and train at the same time." Um, and so I just kinda like went all in on listening to a bunch of, you know, podcasts and stuff like that. And, um, actually one of your previous guests, uh, Ben Greenfield, was one of the first podcasts I really kinda did a deep dive into, and he was always kinda like-... uh, rolling out stuff that was, like, kinda new or cutting edge. So, like, um, he definitely had a lot of information there. And, um, I was for-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, he's a maniac.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't take his advice on what he does with his dick.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
He's shooting stem cells into his dick and all that.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, he's turning himself into a guinea pig. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He's, he's an odd duck. (laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs) But yeah, he, he definitely had a lot of info from-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
... guys like Dr. Finney and Dr. Volek. And, uh, you know, I, I was lucky to meet those guys too on a couple occasions. And, um, with, with Dr. Volek, I've done some podcasts with him, and certainly, uh, you know, like, exchanged emails and stuff when I've had questions. And, uh, so I kinda just tested it out, you know? I was like, "What's the worst that can happen? I can just ... I can always go back, you know?"
- 20:30 – 23:55
Adapting keto for performance: keto flu, sleep improvements, and the “missing last gear”
- ZBZach Bitter
And at the time, I was like, "That doesn't sound like what I wanna do." So, um, this was just something I decided to explore first. Um, and i- y- it's, it's really goofy because, like, I've certainly evolved in kinda how I use it from that ... when I first started. When I, when I first started, I went like really kinda really low carb, like that clinical ketosis level where you read about, where they're like 50 grams of carbohydrates or less. And, you know, I did that for about, I think it was like four to six weeks. And, um, I didn't have as hard of a time as what I think I've, I've, I've seen some people have with it. You know, you have people talking about everything from like the keto flu to just like feeling really lethargic for a while before that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
... kinda metabolic switch flips. Um, what I kinda noticed was, um, I felt really good doing like really, like, low-level type mundane tasks, just like day-to-day work and things like that. But, like, maybe every second or third day, I'd go out for a run and just feel awful. And, um, I kinda knew enough about it that I thought, "Okay, gi- let's give this a solid four weeks before I make any judgements on whether that's gonna be something that sticks around or not." And, you know, after about that point, my energy levels kinda normalized. Um, and then, you know, I was ... So at that point, I was, like, excited. I was like, "This is sweet." I'm ... And well, I should've mentioned too, like, during that process, I started sleeping through the night again, which was, like, kind of really an eye-opening thing for me. Um, because usually, like, I'd wake up at least three times.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you attribute that to?
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, you know, I, I don't know for sure. Uh, but, uh, you know, it could be anything from just the amount of stress I was causing on my body from kind of two angles, from the training plus, like ... You know, uh, like, I don't want to demonize carbohydrates 'cause I think they have a place. I think they're a great tool. I just think, like, the, the question everyone should ask is, at what level do they become kind of a margin of diminishing returns for you? And, you know, what I think was likely happening is that, you know, I was reaching past that margin of diminishing returns and, um, it was causing more stress than what my body was, was able to tolerate, and that was causing cortisol spikes or something like that, that was waking me up at night.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, but, you know, who knows really? Like, it's, uh, it ... All I know is the only thing at that time I changed was my diet and-
- JRJoe Rogan
And we should probably point out that this is not universal. That everybody's diet is gonna affect them differently.
- ZBZach Bitter
Oh, for sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Some people are fine with carbohydrates.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's a lot of people out there (clears throat) that eat a high carbohydrate diet and they have zero issues with it-
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... whatsoever. And it's, that's one of the weirder things about people.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? Is, is that we are so variable-
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... depending upon your ancestry, you know, what part of the world they, they evolved.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me 'cause I mean, I'll look at folks doing complete opposite of who I am and they're, they're doing just fine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, and it's ... You know, then I'll look at some folks too that are doing the opposite of me and they're doing just fine for a while, and then they ultimately start noticing the same kinda things I did and then they can clean it up. Uh, so it is kinda ... Yeah, I think at the end of the day, you just gotta be kinda honest with yourself. And, you know, some people, I think, are really, really robust (laughs) and they can, they can hit their body with that high-octane fuel of carbohydrate, like, day in and day out at a high level and it doesn't seem to bother 'em much.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
But, you know, other people, like, yeah, I think just it, it can kinda ... It's like playing with rocket fuel a little bit, where, you know, a little bit can be great and, um, too much of it can kinda burn you up a little bit.
- 23:55 – 27:55
Periodized carbs and metabolic flexibility: using ketosis as a tool, not a religion
- JRJoe Rogan
So you were saying that you started off at, like, 50 grams of carbohydrates a day, like, real strict ketosis diet.
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
What di- what did you eventually move to?
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, e- so the way I call it is I periodize it. So, like, when I look at my year, you're, you can pick out a week where I'm kind of in peak training and then pick out a week where I'm kind of in, like, a recovery phase or off season, and it looks like two completely different lifestyles. So, my first thought after kind of, like, working through the whole ketogenic approach, um ... 'Cause I should add too, like, um, once I got, like, feeling good about that, I started adding back speed workouts and things like that, and I definitely noticed that I was missing kinda that last gear. Like it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
... it was a lot more difficult to go out and really throttle down. Like, I could run all day at a slow pace, but if I decided to go out on the track and do, like, 400-meter repeats at, like, a really fast, like, a really fast pace, um, it was really hard to kinda-... to, to be able to do that.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a common complaint.
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, Robb Wolf, uh, you know Robb Wolf?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yep, mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Robb Wolf had a similar issue, and he's gotten, like, very heavily into jujitsu, and he was telling me that he just can't stick to that 50 grams of carbohydrates a day-
- ZBZach Bitter
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and still have the, the energy to go hard.
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm. Does, does, do you know does Robb Wolf work out more than one time a day?
- JRJoe Rogan
I do not know. Um, he looks very fit, though.
- ZBZach Bitter
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm, I'm not sure what his, uh, what his schedule is, but I know he works out very hard. And if he's doing jujitsu, that's really, it's very difficult to do jujitsu any other way than hard.
- ZBZach Bitter
Sure, yeah. You know, 'cause this is one thing I've always been curious about too, and, you know, uh, like, I'm not, I'm not trying to come, come on here and say, like, everyone should switch to doing what I do. I mean, I think you should follow your own, your own s- your own personal self and if, and be honest with yourself. You feel great, do what you're doing, if you don't, then probably look to change something. But, like, one thing I'm always looking at now or suspecting is that, like, it's more about the recovery between efforts than it is about the intensity of the effort or the duration of the effort in terms of how much carbs you need to bring back or wanna bring back. Because I've also had circumstances where, like, I'll do, like, a big workout or a race or something like that, and then I'll go really easy for, like, a week. And during that week, I'll go, like, super strict keto, um, 'cause I'm recovering. I'm not doing anything intense, I'm not doing anything too long. Um, so that's m- that's the point of my training where I kinda say, "All right, let's get rid of the start- the fast-acting fuel sources, I don't need 'em right now, and reset that whole fat adaptation thing." Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you feel like you need the fast-acting fuel sources like carbohydrates, you only really need them when you're pushing hard.
- ZBZach Bitter
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
When you're really running fast.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, and I actually think it's, it's when you're doubling down on those on a regular basis. So, like, if you're working out really hard for, like, 45 minutes to an hour a day, I think you can probably get away with almost a ketogenic or, like, a really low carbohydrate approach, because you're giving yourself, like, 23-plus hours between sessions for your body to kinda restock glycogen stores from other areas, like, you know, f- uh, from fat and proteins and things like that. I think when you start getting into a system where you're, like myself, I'm doing two-a-days a lot, and then sometimes one of those is a speed session. That's when I feel like I need to bring some of the carbohydrate back, and I think it's probably just to get some of the glycogen at a little faster rate. 'Cause that is gonna replenish your glycogen stores faster as a carbohydrate than, like, a fat or, or a protein probably would.
- JRJoe Rogan
So how many grams of carbohydrates a day would you have on a day like that?
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, y- uh, when I'm in, like, peak training, which is about 20 hours a week of running, strength training, and mobility type stuff, you know, I'll probably let myself get up to, like, 15 to 25% of my in- intake from carbohydrate. Um, y-
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think that is in grams?
- ZBZach Bitter
Uh, ph- it probably d- it depends a lot on, like, what I actually do, um, 'cause I don't count calories very often. I, I used to just to kinda, like, see what was going on, and then I kinda got intuitive with it. Uh, gram-wise, you know, it's probably anywhere from, like, 200 to 300 maybe, and then when I'm in those phases of training, i- it's really intense in terms of, like, just, uh, or I shouldn't say intense, it's just really tedious in the amount of time and energy required for it.
- 27:55 – 32:56
Measuring ketosis in real life: blood meters, breath devices, timing carbs, and exogenous ketones
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, are you blood monitoring at that time? Are you checking your m- millimolar levels?
- ZBZach Bitter
Uh, I am sometimes, like when I'm, uh, like when I get curious about that type of stuff, or I've done it in the past. I've actually ... What I did i- originally is I got the, the blood ketone monitor, and then I also got one of those KetOnyx, bu- like, it, it's like this little USB thing and then you blow into it, and then-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ZBZach Bitter
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
How is- is that accurate?
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, I think it- there's, I think there's varied results. I think they've gotten a lot better with it. Um, but what I did is I actually measured my blood ketone, and then I would use that and I tried to find kinda, like, if mine was matching what that thing would say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
So I kinda had an i- I got it to where I kinda had an idea where certain ranges on that thing would kind of indicate whether I was in ketosis or not. Um, so, like, I very much was coming out of ketosis during peak training. Like, when I would, especially when I would get up to 200, 300 grams of carbohydrate, I would come out of ketosis, uh, and I'd probably go back into ketosis throughout that ph- that, that phase. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
When you say go back in and come out, uh, like, what kind of a time period are you talking about?
- ZBZach Bitter
Uh, y- it, it, the time period was more indicative about what I kinda ate during it too. Like, if I did, if, if, if I did ... Or I shouldn't say what I, like, how I kinda structured those 200 to 300 grams of carbohydrate, like if I did, like, a big bolus of it in one meal, I'd get back into ketosis a little quicker because then I wouldn't come back to the carbohydrates again for a while.
- JRJoe Rogan
So would you vary in- inside the day?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm, interesting.
- ZBZach Bitter
Like, I would st- like, if I, and h- and here's where it got kind of interesting, I guess, is I do a lot of my, the heaviest bulk of my training in the morning, so I typically wake up and have some, like, coffee with, like, coconut milk or heavy whipping cream or something like that, and then, uh, you know, go for my run. So then when I get back from a run, you know, it might be two hours, sometimes even three, and, uh, you know, at that point, I had just slept for eight to 10 hours. Then, you know, by the time I got down from my run, you know, I hadn't, I had probably hadn't e- I had essentially done, like, a small intermittent fast for the most part. Um, so, like, even when I had the higher amounts of carbohydrates, I'd find myself going back into ko- ketosis at the end of something like that sometimes. Um, but really, it was, to me, it wasn't necessarily a question of whether I was in ketosis or not, 'cause that really wasn't important to me. Um, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Performance is important.
- ZBZach Bitter
Perfor- exactly, yeah. And what I wanted out of this approach was, um, I wanted to be able to rely on my body to, body to burn high levels of fat when I needed it to, but I also wanted to be metabolically flexible enough where if I needed to hit the gas pedal, I could do that as well. Um, and I think that's where people get a little, uh, uh, confused or up in arms or something because there's not a whole lot of studies that kinda y- uh, per- look at that specifically. Like, can you do that or can you not do that? Some people think it's kind of an all or nothing thing, where you either get really fat adapted or you get really carb-dependent, and then everything else is kinda like, you know, this gray area that you can't really get into. But-... that's not my experience. You know, my experience has been that, like, I can get... L- Look, h- here's my kind of litmus test. If I can go for, like, a four-hour or even five-hour run with no fuel other than water and electrolytes, then I'm fat-adapted enough. I don't need to get any more fat-adapted than that because I can eat during a race, and everyone else is going to be... So, like, I don't really need to get more fat-adapted after that from a p- performance standpoint. Um, so when I get to that point, then it's like, how many, how many carbohydrates can I bring back to kinda give me that extra nudge or that extra fuel substrate? Um. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you ever tried mixing exogenous ketones with carbohydrates?
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, (sighs) not with carb-
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause Greenfield was talking about that.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he said it's like doing steroids.
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
He said it was incredible.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, there's-
- JRJoe Rogan
But again, he's, he's a maniac.
- ZBZach Bitter
He is a maniac, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ZBZach Bitter
There's, uh... Who else was it? Was it Dominic D'Agostino was playing around with that stuff quite a bit, too? Or he might have helped, uh, he might have helped, uh, with the, the creation of some of that stuff. I know there was... Uh, I'd have to look back in my emails and stuff. But I, I actually had, uh... There was a guy who was doing a real clinical version of the exogenous ketones and, um, he had sent me one a while back to kinda do a little test for him. And, uh, it, it was like just this little canister of exogenous ketone and he wanted me to kinda check my ketones when I woke up in the morning, take that, test it 15 minutes later, and then test again after my run.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was that like a ketone ester?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, I think so.
- 32:56 – 39:37
Fueling a 100-miler: digestion limits, heat, calories per hour, and why he still uses carbs in-race
- ZBZach Bitter
But I don't know... Here's what I... Here's my question, is with that stuff from a performance standpoint, is like it's... People are looking at that kind of, I think, more like an electrolyte where it's like I take this on top of my energy source, um, whereas that's actually an energy source, a fairly potent one, too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
So like when I'm out there racing and I'm trying to kinda limit... And I'm, I'm trying to eat a, a certain amount so that I kinda keep that energy where I want it, but I'm also trying not to go overboard because I don't want digestive stress. Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
That's interesting. So like as you're running, you have to maintain like a certain amount of food in your system but you don't wanna have a large meal.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, yeah. 'Cause like basically the way I... It... Sim- to simply put it, like digestion requires blood volume, you know, to move into your gut and like digest the food. So when you're running, especially when it's hot, your body's also trying to use your, your blood volume for muscle function and cooling and things like that. So by kind of introducing another use for that blood volume, your body's prob-... Is, is running out of resources to kind of make all those things run smoothly, um, which is why a lot of times in ultra-marathons people find out, like they have the worst luck with like throwing up and stomach issues when it gets really hot out, because their body's gotta go double down on the cooling side of things with the blood volume and then it's like, "Well, something's gotta give," so it just pukes up (laughs) everything you put in your stomach.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, yeah. So, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there a way to mitigate that?
- ZBZach Bitter
Uh, eat less. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's it?
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Just... So when you... When... If you're running, like what's a size portion? Like what do you... What would you eat? Say if you're doing a 100 miler-
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and you have to pause for fuel.
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, you know, I'll, I'll typically aim for around 100 to 200 calories an hour when I'm doing, uh, doing a 100 miler. And to kind of put that in perspective, when I was, uh, high carb I was aiming for 300, 400, sometimes even 500 calories an hour. So when I kind of went into the approach where fat was my primary fuel source, the, the need for that carbohydrate essentially got cut in half if not more. And for me that's a win as long as energy levels are the same, because it means I have to eat less during the race. If I can-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ZBZach Bitter
... it's one less logistic thing, one less potential stomach issue. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So what, what's a, a typical meal?
- ZBZach Bitter
A typical meal, like in-
- JRJoe Rogan
While you're running.
- ZBZach Bitter
Oh, while I'm running? Uh, you know, I usually stick to like, uh, um, uh, like water-based stuff. So like I'll use a product called, um, Xendurance Fuel 5. And it's essentially like a really, really high-level sports drink. Um, with like a varying am-... It's got... It's, it's carbohydrate-based and I can tell you why I use carbohydrates instead of fats during a race in a minute, too, if you want, um. But it's like five different types of kind of carbohydrate that release at varying points. You get some that's kind of a little quick jolt and others that are more sustained like, kinda like a sweet potato type of a release. Um, so I'll be just trickling that in. So like if I'm doing like a 100 miler and let's say I'm, I'm aiming for like 30 to 40 ounces of water, uh, per hour to kind of stay on top of hydration, I'll put, um, you know, two... Like, 100 to 200 calories with that stuff in that water. So then I'm kinda killing two birds with one stone in getting my fuel in as well as hydrating at the same time.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what... And why are you taking carbohydrates while you're running instead of fats?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, so that's, that's the other thing. Like... And, and I see this as, as somewhat of a... I don't know if it's an issue necessarily, but it's an interesting thing for... At, uh, at the very least is when you... When I talk to folks who are like really into the high fat approach, you know, some of them are like zero carb or like really ketogenic all the time 24/7. Uh, they'll be taking in like fat sources during a race and I've never understood that, um, just because when you look at your body's energy systems during a race, like you have your glycogen stores and then you have body fat. And I think a lot of people kinda get misled and they think, "Oh, I'm a really lean runner so I can't rely on body fat," when in reality even the leanest endurance athletes have enough body fat to get through an endurance race. Like even if you're 4%, 5% body fat at m- at your leanest, you... That's a much bigger fuel source than your glycogen reserves. So-When I'm doing a race, I've got enough fat to take care of the fat metabolizing portion of that energy, uh, requirement for the race. What I might run out of is those glycogen stores, which are really small in comparison. So I'm trying to just slowly trickle in the g- the, the sugar or the carbohydrate during a race, um, just enough to kinda keep my glycogen stores where I wanna be so I can hit the gas if I need to, um, but not at the level where it's gonna cause stomach distress or compromise, or heavily compromise my body's, like, willingness or ability to burn fat either.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's fascinating. So like, as you're running, your body could switch back and forth between fats and carbohydrates because you're so fat-adapted?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, and I ... You know, it's actually probably happening, like, simultaneously-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
... it's just at different rates. Like, ooh- Like, someone who's really fat-adapted, they could be running kinda the same effort, and the fat-adapted person might be, like, burning 80% fat, 20% carbohydrate, and the carb-dependent person might be like a 50/50 split.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
So that carb-dependent person's gonna exhaust their glycogen stores a lot quicker, or they're gonna have to fuel themselves at a much higher rate to make up for that deficit. And, um, when you look at, like, how difficult that is, 'cause, you know, some of these ... Especially some of these mountain races where you're running uphill, it's like you, you might be burning 800-plus calories an hour and it's really hard-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that's a different animal, right?
- 39:37 – 44:44
Training environment and life logistics: Phoenix heat prep, hydration vests, sponsors, and engagement
- JRJoe Rogan
It's interesting. You're saying you're living in Phoenix. Do you run in the summer in Phoenix? 'Cause Phoenix is fucking insanely hot.
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs) So I, I moved there in January, so ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Good move.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Big wake-up call come June.
- ZBZach Bitter
I, yeah- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You're like, "Whoa!" (laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, it'll be, it'll be warm. Um, I actually kinda like it because right now, I'm, I'm training for the Western States 100, and that's in ... It starts in Squaw Valley and ends in Auburn, California. Uh, and they go through, like, these four canyons that get, can get brutally hot, like 110 plus some years. Um, and, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you run with like a vest where you have water bottles attached to you or anything?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- ZBZach Bitter
Th- uh, that stuff has come such a long way since I started the sport. I remember when I first started, it was pretty primitive type stuff, and now the, the sport is ... I think through-hiking plays a big role in this too. It has gotten like so popular or popular enough where now companies are really t- dialing that stuff in, where you can get like a pack, um, that just sits nice and snug on you, and you can put wat- ... Like I use, I, I use a brand called Nathan. They have like ones that have bladders on the back where they also have ones you can put water bottles on the front. Um, and then just, you know, different set-ups and stuff. So, so yeah, that, that's like a must (laughs) in a, in the heat.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I mean, 'cause even in early mornings-
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's gotta be brutal in Phoenix, right?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. Uh, I mean, I'm h- I have yet to see the worst of it. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why'd you move there?
- ZBZach Bitter
Uh, well, part of it was, um, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
You wanna carry a gun?
- ZBZach Bitter
E- well. (laughs) .
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) .
- ZBZach Bitter
I'm looking into-
- JRJoe Rogan
Phoenix has got crazy laws for that.
- ZBZach Bitter
Let's ... Well, I moved from Sacramento, so let's say I'm looking into that now. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) .
- ZBZach Bitter
But yeah, so it's, um ... It, it w- it was a combination of things. For me, like, uh, I'm trying to kind of balance a few different things. I, I, I train a lot. I also work for one of my primary sponsors, Altra Footwear, uh, and y- like, for me to be able to kinda do the stuff for them that I was wanting to do, it made more sense to be in Phoenix, just like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like product testing and stuff like that?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, that and just, like, putting on, like, like, small group runs and events and things like that in the area. Uh, like, if I wanted to invest ... Or if I wanted to kind of appropriately handle the territory, Phoenix made a lot more sense than Sacramento. Northern California has just grown so much for that company in the last couple years that, like, they needed to get someone in there who was gonna do full-time plus to really cover the area. Um, and then I, you know, I also got engaged in, in January as well, so, uh, um, my fiance, she, she was best served being in the Phoenix area too, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
... it was kind of a mutual, uh ... She was from Dallas originally, and, um, Phoenix was kind of like a, a mutually good spot for both of us. So, uh, um, we, we both kinda looked at it as like, "Well, what do we want?" And it was, we want trails right in our backyard, but we also want access to flat stuff. And we, we actually kinda want the heat because it like ... There's races where you need that to train for, so when it gets hot earlier, you can prepare for them, uh, much earlier in the year.
- 44:44 – 53:00
Minimalist and zero-drop footwear in ultras: Altra, barefoot racers, and strengthening the foot
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, I- I'm not familiar with Altra footwear, but what I wanted to ask you is does anybody wear, like, minimalist shoes and run these o- ultra-marathons?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there was a ... There was actually a gal, I cannot remember her name, this was a couple years ago, who- who ran ultras in, um, those Vibram FiveFingers. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, yeah, and the trail stuff too, so, um, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
She must've been a beast.
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's hard to run just a couple miles in those things.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, and it's- a- you know, it- it's interesting because ... So Altra footwear made this shoe this last year called, uh, the- the Vanish, and it's essentially a minimalist shoe, um, just like a little bit of fabric on the top, super f- super hard flat base, and that's kinda what I like when I'm on a road or a track. Um, so I was wearing that-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's called the Vanish?
- ZBZach Bitter
The Vanish, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you pull that up and see what that looks like?
- ZBZach Bitter
And it's, uh ... (laughs) So I- I went to this- this- this Altra race and I wore those thinking I'm gonna have the lightest shoe out of anyone here. Three guys show up running completely barefoot.
- JRJoe Rogan
What? (laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They ran an ultra-marathon barefoot?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Dude, that's another level.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. There was one, there was one guy who's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Jesus Christ.
- ZBZach Bitter
He's like a 222 or 223 marathoner, and he's barefoot and he said, like, the- right-
- JRJoe Rogan
He runs a marathon barefoot?
- ZBZach Bitter
So he doesn't do the marathon barefoot. He actually said that, uh, the-
- JRJoe Rogan
So that's a little bit of padding in that, it looks like, or at least th- there's a lip on the outside.
- ZBZach Bitter
Is that the Vanish or is that the s- is that the-
- JRJoe Rogan
It says Vanish logo.
- ZBZach Bitter
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, there's- there's a little bit there is like a ... It's like a carbon fiber plate, and you see where that little cut is in there?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Right.
- ZBZach Bitter
There's like a carbon fiber plate in there that makes it a little more firm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I see.
- ZBZach Bitter
So what I'm looking for in a shoe when I'm looking for kind of like that natural feel is something that's got a firm mid-sole or a firm durometer because, like, I don't want to squish down into the shoe. I wanna pop right off the ground. Um, and I think, like, really, like that is ju- ... I mean, you've probably experienced this with the, with the Vibrams where like, um, if you spend the time, your foot- feet get stronger and stronger and stronger.
- 53:00 – 58:18
What goes wrong in 100 miles: bonking, cramping, and Zach’s 100-mile record performance
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what's a typical thing that goes wrong?
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, you know, I think a lot of people will s- have, like, cramping or they'll- they'll bonk. I mean, this is one of the reasons why I love the high-fat approach, is because, like, bonking from the, like, energy side of things is essentially nonexistent.
- JRJoe Rogan
Explain bonking if people don't know what you're talking about.
- ZBZach Bitter
So- so bonking is essentially what happens. And it's- it's ... I think it's actually more common in a marathon just because people are running a lot faster in those. But essentially what's happening is you're depleting your glycogen stores to the point where your body doesn't really have access to that fuel substrate anymore. And if you are trying ... If you're not good at metabolizing fat or you cannot burn fat at a high rate and at a decent clip, it grinds you to a halt. You can see people staggering and falling over and losing their mind, hallucinating, and stuff like that in those situations. Um, so, like, you know, bonking is something that is- is an issue with ultra-marathoners 'cause you're out there for so long if you get behind on fueling, you know, you could bonk and stuff like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
So, you know, part of the reason ... You know, I talked about before with, like, there's a lot of logistics with an ultra-marathon, and there's a ... these variables are just- just- just so prevalent when you're out there that long, that if you can eliminate some of those or reduce the potential of them flaring up, that's usually a win 'cause then there's less chance of something popping up that you wouldn't expect or an uncertain thing happening during the race, and ... But I mean, they- they still happen. You know, I've done the ... I would say the most efficient 100-miler I've done is, uh, when I- I ran 11 hours and 40 minutes and 55 seconds at a race in 2015, called-
- JRJoe Rogan
Holy shit. You ran-
- ZBZach Bitter
That-
- JRJoe Rogan
You ran 100 miles in 11 hours?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. That was- that was on a tr- that was one on the track in- in sp-
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't give a fuck if it was on the moon.
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy. You ran 11 hours, you ran 100 miles?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah. So I think the thing that-
- JRJoe Rogan
How long does it take to drive 100 miles?
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. It takes at lea- I mean, if you go 100 miles an hour, it takes an hour. You go 50 miles, it takes two.
- ZBZach Bitter
Well, it- it might take me longer to get to the airport if the traffic on the 405 is bad.
- JRJoe Rogan
That is fucking cra-
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
How Zach Fitter broke the US 100-mile record. You averaged seven fucking minutes per mile-
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... for almost 12 hours. Dude. That is insane. That is fucking insane. Bert Kreischer, he brags when he runs seven-minute miles-
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... for, like, three miles. He's done it, yeah. (laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
What did- what did Bert end up running that, the LA marathon in?
- JRJoe Rogan
Six- six-and-a-half.
- ZBZach Bitter
Six-and-a-half?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I think it was close to that, yeah. I think it was- I think it was shorter than that. I think it was five, five-something. Yeah. No, no, no. Ari's dad- Yeah, five-and-a-half. Yeah, about five-and-a-half.
- ZBZach Bitter
Five-and-a-half?
- 58:18 – 1:03:04
Carnivore, vegan, and individual variability: performance vs ideology and nutrient bioavailability
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, there's a lot of talk lately about the carnivore diet.
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's a lot of people that are delving into that, including Jordan Peterson's daughter, which is a really interesting case because she had severe autoimmune disorder. Like she had some severe issues with-
- ZBZach Bitter
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... like horrible arthritis, where she's had, um, I know she's had hip replacements and I believe she's having an ankle replaced soon too.
- ZBZach Bitter
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like s- like severe issues. And if she eats anything other than meat, it flares up-
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... horribly. It's really crazy.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, I n- I've never... I mean, I'm gonna, I wanna try to talk to her, maybe even get her in here. But, um, I, I've never heard anything like that.
- ZBZach Bitter
I thought I heard somewhere, um, it was after the last time you had Jordan on, where he was telling you about how he just basically eats meats and greens, where he-
- JRJoe Rogan
And that was on his daughter's recommendation.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, I think he's cut out all vegetables right now, for at least a trial. I, I think-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ZBZach Bitter
... I saw something about that. Um, but yeah, it's, it's one of those things where I think like s- it's like what I was saying before, like why I don't necessarily want people to say like, "Well, Zach is saying everyone should do exactly what he's doing."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ZBZach Bitter
And then, you know, they...
- JRJoe Rogan
That's important to bring up, right?
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Everybody's body is different, it really is.
- ZBZach Bitter
For sure. I mean, to the point where like you have people like that... Like when I had m- like the issues I was having were incredibly minor compared to Jordan Peterson's daughter. Like the, like (laughs) I mean, she's in a spot where, you know, she had to make changes if she wanted to even just probably do daily activities.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, and you know, that's, th- that, that's I think the hard part for people to kind of understand, is like there, people are at different stages. There are some people... Like no one's breaking themselves overnight. So it's like this is something that's chipping away at people, and sometimes it chips away at them quicker in uh some people, and takes longer for others. Uh, so if you have an issue like that, it's like you almost have to go back to square one and say, "What are... G- give me a couple things that I know aren't gonna upset me, and let's start from there and see if we can start adding things back eventually maybe." Or, um, you know, the, we, uh... You know Shaun Baker you had on the podcast?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Bitter
Um, we actually started recording some podcasts together. And, um, we are having this gal come on who's been a carnivore for eight years. And she was kind of in that situation where she had a whole bunch of goofy things going on, even with the keto protocol, and she eventually just cut everything out but meat and has been doing great ever since. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a vegan's nightmare.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hearing things like that, it's like, "No."
- ZBZach Bitter
Well, you know (laughs) .
- 1:03:04 – 1:05:48
Ultra’s outliers: Courtney Dauwalter’s dominance, mindset, and the women vs men performance debate
- ZBZach Bitter
Well, and some people get away with even more. I mean, Courtney Dauwalter, wouldn't you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ZBZach Bitter
She's candy, right? Like (laughs) -
- JRJoe Rogan
She's candy and drinks beer and eats nachos.
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
We took her to a bagel place. She fucking chowed down on bagels-
- ZBZach Bitter
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... and cream cheese. She's a fucking animal, man.
- ZBZach Bitter
I read an article about her not too long ago, and she said that she's got like candy jars sitting around the house.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ZBZach Bitter
And she's like, "Before I go out for a run, I'll go anywhere from just like, you know, nibbling on it to a small stomach ache." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ZBZach Bitter
So we're not operating from the same field, I guess, in that regard, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, she's a real freak, man, you know.
- ZBZach Bitter
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, there's people that know her that just, they're stunned by her.
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because what's interesting about her is she's not a fast runner in, per se, like, like the way she would run a marathon.
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
She'd run a marathon in like three hours, you know?
- ZBZach Bitter
So did she, he was... Did she talk about how she got into running when she was on here?
- JRJoe Rogan
I believe she did. Do you remember specifically, Jamie? I don't know. I think she just sort of, like you, she ran in high school, I think, a little bit, but- Yeah. Well, she was, uh, teaching as well.
- ZBZach Bitter
Okay, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And while she was teaching, she was running-
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and doing these things. And then eventually, she was able to get enough sponsors-
- ZBZach Bitter
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... so that she could run full time, wh- which is what she does now. But with, with her, I think, and this is one of the reasons why I'm fascinated by you folks, with her, it's her mind. Her mind is just unbelievably powerful. When she was experiencing cornea edemas, right?
- ZBZach Bitter
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Her... She couldn't fucking see, man.
Episode duration: 1:27:58
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Transcript of episode RsO61ZsihQM
