Joe Rogan Experience #1110 - Zach Bitter

Joe Rogan 0:01 Five, four, three, two, one. (snaps fingers) Boom. And we're off. What's up, brother? How are you?

Zach Bitter 0:08 Good, good. Thanks for having me on.

Joe Rogan 0:09 My pleasure. Nice to meet you, man. You know, it's- it's funny that you just brought up Dr. Attia. You know, when we were- we were- you were saying that you download the podcast, you were saying-

Zach Bitter 0:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:18 ... "I gotta get that guy on."

Zach Bitter 0:20 Yeah, yeah. It was funny. I, I was ... It auto-downloads, and that one popped up, and I remember thinking about a week before that. I was like, well, when I- when we first scheduled this one, I was like, "I gotta tell Joe about Dr. Attia." He was one of the kinda first guys I really followed when I kinda dove into kind of the high-fat approach to, to nutrition. So, um, yeah, he's a fascinating guy who's, who's a great listen. I had to listen to it, like, twice, so. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:41 Yeah, he's a weird guy.

Zach Bitter 0:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:42 He's one of those guys where you, you talk to him and you think, "Oh, this is like a normal, really nice guy." And then as he starts getting into the medical aspect of things, you go, "Oh, okay."

Zach Bitter 0:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:50 "You're a fucking super genius."

Zach Bitter 0:52 Yeah, yeah. He's smart.

Joe Rogan 0:53 He tricks you. (laughs)

Zach Bitter 0:54 Yeah. I remember one of the first things he ever said that really kinda resonated with me was, I think someone was asking him about, like, what the effects are with a ketogenic diet in terms of, like, micronutrients and what maybe he'd be missing based on kinda like that normal profile of what you're supposed to get. And, and he was just like, "You know, it's, it's interesting 'cause most those studies and recommendations are based off of basically a standard American diet or a higher-carb diet." So he's like, "Well, you might just not need the same. We need to do more." And he's always looking to kind of push the envelope a bit, so cool guest for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:28 Yeah, and, uh, you know, I'm fascinated by you, and I'm fascinated by anybody who does the kind of shit that you do.

Zach Bitter 1:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:35 I mean, uh, please explain to people all the different ultra-marathons you've done and, like, what you've accomplished.

Zach Bitter 1:44 Yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting because, like, I still kinda see myself as a pretty average runner. Because, like, um, I mean, I competed in high school and made state cross-country and state track and that kind of thing, um, for a small school, and then I went to a small division three school and was, you know, pretty much, you know, average amongst a real good program at the D3 level. And, uh, I always just did kinda like running longer, though. So, um, like, once I got done with college, I kinda decided, "Well, let's, let's see what's longer than some of those traditional, like, collegiate races of like 5K to 10 kilometers." And, uh, you know, I started kinda just dabbling with that stuff, and then in, in 2010, I think, uh, I actually did my first ultra-marathon, you know, partly because I was just, like, looking around and there turned out to be one in the state. I was li- I was living in Wisconsin at the time, and, uh, there was one that, uh, was kind of in my neck of the woods, and I actually had just decided to go back to grad school, and that one had a $1000 prize purse on it. And I was like, "You know what? If I, if I can win that, 1000 bucks go a long way during grad school." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:44 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 2:45 So I did that one, and I ended up winning it, and it, uh, it definitely hooked me. It was like the type of thing where I was like, "I wanna do more of these." And, um, by 2011, I kinda jumped all in at the end of the year and, and did three 50-milers in, I think it was about a, a nine-week timeframe.

Joe Rogan 3:02 (sighs)

Zach Bitter 3:02 And, uh ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:03 That's so crazy.

Zach Bitter 3:05 Yeah, and I mean-

Joe Rogan 3:05 (clears throat)

Zach Bitter 3:05 ... it gets crazier. There's, there's some freaks out there. Um, there's guys who will do, like, a couple in a weekend and stuff like that, so. (laughs) I mean, it- it never ends. Um, but yeah, you know, it was one of those things where after that, I was totally hooked. So, uh-

Joe Rogan 3:18 What is it that got you hooked?

Zach Bitter 3:20 Um, (sighs) you know, it, it had to be partly just a little bit of success, you know. I wasn't necessarily used to winning, so ... Like, I mean, I've- I had good races and good times relative to what you probably see, like, in an average person, but, you know, when I went to like a competitive 5K, competitive marathon or something like that, um, you know, I wasn't gonna win unless it was kind of a local race. So, kinda finding ... You know, it's like anything, I guess. You kinda gravitate to what you feel you're good at, and then that kinda piques your interest. Um, so that was part of it. The other part was just, uh, I really enjoyed doing the long run. Like, when you break up kind of like a training week, you have like a variety of different things. You've got like kind of, you know, base level runs, you've got specific workouts for the distance, and then most training programs, um, are gonna have a long run once a week, and that was the one that was always my favorite. So, wrapping my head around doing a bunch of those a week instead of just one was, was really kind of appealing to me, and when you're putting that much time into whatever you're training for, it's, I think, important to enjoy it. So being able to kinda enjoy the training process a lot was really appealing to me. Um, and, uh, and then it's just the variables. The- when you're out there for that long, there's so many variables to consider, and it's like, it's a blast for me to kinda like work through those, plan for those, and then adjust to them on the fly when you're out there and, you know, things inevitably go wrong or things pop up that you didn't expect. So it's, it's, uh, it's just, uh, it's- it's kinda hard to explain (laughs) , but it- it's, it's weird. One of the things in ultra-marathon running that people always say is like they'll have a race, and even if they have a bad race, say like, "I'm never doing one of these again." And then the next day, they're on a, on the internet looking for another race. So it's-

Joe Rogan 4:56 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 4:56 ... just this weird thing about it that you don't really know until you do it, but it, it sucks you in (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 5:01 That's the case with a lot of people when they talk about things that are like ... That they have to suffer through.

Zach Bitter 5:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:05 You know, I've heard that when guys talk about like those extreme hikes.

Zach Bitter 5:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:09 You know, when they, you know, like they do that ... You know that one that goes from Georgia all the way to Maine? You know that-

Zach Bitter 5:14 Oh.

Joe Rogan 5:15 ... insane hike?

Zach Bitter 5:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:16 What is that called? The Appalachian Trail?

Zach Bitter 5:17 Appalachian Trail, yep.

Joe Rogan 5:18 Yeah. That they say, "I'll never fucking do that again."

Zach Bitter 5:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:20 And then they're like, "Okay, what other, what other hikes can I go?" It's just once the pain, the physical pain, w- dies down, there's something about that challenge that stimulates in people like you and people that are into these really long distance things. Like, there's something about distance. There's something about like, like you were saying, like you weren't the best runner in high school or college, right? But-

Zach Bitter 5:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:42 ... there's something about the mind of an ultra-marathoner. It's a different mind. The pers- the type of person that can run 100 miles, 200 miles, 238 miles, those type of people, they're different people. And there's like, there's a strength, a mental strength, and the ability to just keep going on and on and on that I'm absolutely fascinated with.

Zach Bitter 6:02 Yeah, you know, and it is interesting too 'cause it's, uh, this sport's grown a b- quite a bit in the last decade or so, but it's still very much kind of a niche group, and then when you kinda hang out in that group, you start to kinda normalize it a little bit, I think. (smacks lips) So then you start thinking, like, "Oh, 100 miles, it's just what we do." And then you, you know, you actually try to, like, separate yourself from the fact that you've done a few of those, or separate yourself from the fact that you've been hangin' out with other people who are doing it, and you realize, "Oh, this is actually kind of a weird thing to kinda do as" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:30 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 6:30 "as a human nowadays."

Joe Rogan 6:32 It's fucking very weird.

Zach Bitter 6:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:33 How many of these things have you won?

Zach Bitter 6:35 (smacks lips) Uh, phew, I don't know how many I've won. It, it's ... I think I've done just shy of 50 total now. Um, you know, everything from 50 kilometers to the furthest I've done is 200 kilometers, which is about 125 miles. Um, yeah, (sighs) I, I'd have to look to see how many I've won. It's, it's, it's, it's really goofy 'cause when you start getting into the longer stuff like 100 miles and beyond, you start, at least in my training program, you start to kind of pick smaller races to kinda use as training runs. Um, and some of it, I think, is just because, for me, if I'm gonna go out and do, like, a 30-mile or a 40-mile training run or something like that, it's kinda tedious to do that by yourself and then plan all the logistics of it. So if there's a race nearby and that's not too hard to get to, it's easier just to sign up for that, go and do that. So some of those, you know, I'll, I'll win if they're, if they're small enough, even though I'm not necessarily trying to go for th- you know, go f- all out, so to speak, 'cause I'm hopin' to recover kind of and, and get back into training. Um-

Joe Rogan 7:32 So you'll pace yourself at, at one of these local races maybe?

Zach Bitter 7:35 Yeah, you know, the way I describe it is, um ... And this is, this is a real hard thing for a lot of people to do, I think. It's, uh, like, you go into a race saying, "This is gonna be a moderately difficult long run, uh, so maybe a little faster than what I would do if I was just gonna do it by myself, like, unsupported," that sort of thing. And then I always tell myself, "80% is the hardest you can go if you wanna be able to come back and start training on time to meet the actual goal or the A race." Um, so when I do those, it's like, it's one of those things where, like, y- you know, who knows? Someone might show up that's, that's, like, as fast as you or maybe a little slower than you normal, and if they're deciding to just hammer it that day, (laughs) they might beat you and you gotta be okay with that. Um, if you're-

Joe Rogan 8:15 Does the, the competitive part of you flare up though?

Zach Bitter 8:17 For sure. Well, yeah, it does, and that's the hardest part, and that's, I think, the main reason why some people won't do that approach-

Joe Rogan 8:23 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 8:23 ... 'cause there's certainly people who just, they stay away from races unless it's their A race and they just say, "I'm, if I'm gonna do a long run, I'll do it on my own and, and, and, you know, not do that." Or, you know, there's certainly, I'm sure, folks who do it and then y- they get caught up and then end up leaving their A race out on, on the B race, I guess, so to speak. So, um, yeah, it's, it's interesting. It's a, it's kind of a, a sport that I think is still a lot to learn, which I think is actually the case for a lot of things that ... you know, even, even things that are well established, you know, there's always something to learn or new things to pick up on.

Joe Rogan 8:57 Well, it's one of those things, right, where once, once someone runs 100 miles and then a bunch of other people start doing it, like you said, it, it almost becomes normalized.

Zach Bitter 9:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:05 And then people start to try to push that boundary. Now, I've been hearing talk about, uh, the woman, Candace, who runs the Moab 240?

Zach Bitter 9:12 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:13 Yeah, they're talking about doing a 500.

Zach Bitter 9:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:15 I heard that.

Zach Bitter 9:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:16 I was like, "You're, you're outta your fucking mind. People are gonna die."

Zach Bitter 9:19 They-

Joe Rogan 9:19 But, but maybe that'll be normal in five years and we'll get used to, like, four- or five-day races.

Zach Bitter 9:24 Yeah, so, so it's really fascinating. It took me a couple of years to do this before I got into the sport, but once I was in it for a couple of years, I kinda did a little, a little, a little research to see, like, what the deal was with, um, some of the stuff. And the, the funny thing is, like, that type of a distance isn't even unheard of. Uh, they actually, they're ... I forget what the book is called, but, uh, they actually had, in Madison Square Garden, they used to host a six-day event where guys and gals ... I, I'm not sure if gals were doing it back then, but, um, guys for sure, were going there and seeing how far they could run in six days. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 9:57 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 9:57 Yeah, I know, crazy. And, uh, I think if I remember right, they would actually ... people were s- betting on them that way and so they'd fill it up. Like, people would come and watch-

Joe Rogan 10:05 Oh, wow.

Zach Bitter 10:05 ... this, like, spectacle.

Joe Rogan 10:06 When w- what year was this?

Zach Bitter 10:07 It was in the late 1800s, I think, is when they started it. I'm not sure when it-

Joe Rogan 10:09 Wow. Oh, here it is, six-day cycling? Yes. (clears throat) The six-day grind at Madison Square B- Garden. Bicycled race is something I'm sure they probably ran too. Oh, wow, look at this, man.

Zach Bitter 10:18 So some crazy person decided to leave the bike at home, I guess. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:21 This is super old. We're looking at this on YouTube, folks. It says, "Six-day cycling, the six-day grind at Madison Square Garden" and so it's just a track and these people are ... this is old-timey shit. (laughs) These look, this looks like the '30s, right? Yeah. And that guy just went down. And so they're, they're just riding their bike for six days. Oh, shit, when they wipe out ... oh, my God.

Zach Bitter 10:45 Oof. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:46 They probably had terrible brakes back then, right?

Zach Bitter 10:48 Yeah. It was their feet. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:50 (laughs) Probably, right?

Zach Bitter 10:52 Or the railing. But yeah, yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 10:53 Wh- so this is, uh, so endurance sports like this are nothing new?

Zach Bitter 10:57 Yeah, it's actually fascinating when you, like, kinda look into it 'cause nowadays, uh, in the United States, the trail running scene is definitely way bigger than, like, the road running or certainly the track-

Joe Rogan 11:06 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 11:06 ... the track scene, but that wasn't always the case. If you look back into, like, the '70s and '80s, there was a pretty big surge in ultra-marathon running, uh, for flat, fast stuff. That's where we see a lot of the, the records coming from. Um-

Joe Rogan 11:17 So that's like a track and you run as far and long as you can on a track, like ...

Zach Bitter 11:21 Track or a road or f- really flat road.

Joe Rogan 11:23 I had Goggins on, David Goggins-

Zach Bitter 11:24 Oh, yeah, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:25 ... and he was talking about, uh, the first time he did one was on a track.

Zach Bitter 11:28 Okay, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:29 Just ran in circles on a track, which is almost gotta be more taxing for your mind 'cause you're just seeing the same shit over-

Zach Bitter 11:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:36 ... and over and over again.

Zach Bitter 11:37 Yeah, it's, it's really fascinating to me 'cause I've done, I've done both. I've done 100-milers on the trail and I've done 100 miles on a 400-meter track and, uh, the fascinating thing is it is like what you said. It's almost a different event, where mentally, you're doing everything you can on that track to kinda separate yourself from the actual environment, envision yourself being somewhere else, you know, looking forward to little things, to kinda not necessarily be thinking too far in advance 'cause that can get overwhelming. Whereas when I'm out on the trails, it's like you- you're usually in a pretty pristine, beautiful area, and you can kinda just s- take it as it comes and say, "Oh, cool, now I get to see that," or, "This is a neat area," or, "I like this section," and you look, you look forward to that kinda diversity. Whereas on the track, it's, you know, you see it once and you've seen it every time, um-And then it, you know, it just kinda beats you up mentally from that side of things. Um, but then, you know, there's other things about that too that, that help out, like logistically. Um, when you're on a track for 400 meters, you bring out one person. You put everything you may possibly want on a little table and-

Joe Rogan 12:34 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 12:34 ... or if I want something, I say, "Hey, can I get that?" 400 meters later, I have it. And even-

Joe Rogan 12:38 Right.

Zach Bitter 12:38 ... even if we mess it up, I, I'll get it 400 meters after that, so... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:41 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 12:42 Yeah. Where, whereas, you know, the trails, it depends. They've gotten a lot better with aid stations as the sport's grown. Um, but, like, you know, y- you mess up your aid station or if you get caught up in the moment and just blow through it and don't take care of yourself, you might have to suffer for an hour plus before you get help again. So that's where it kinda gets a little different, I think, logistically, when you're on the trails versus, versus on the road. And, um, but, but yeah, it's, it's kind of a, a different thing. It, the track is interesting too in the s- sense that you're essentially making that same exact mos- exact motion the whole way. So, like, there's certain areas of your body that fatigue, um, and they don't get a break.

Joe Rogan 13:18 Because of the turn?

Zach Bitter 13:19 The turn and just running flat.

Joe Rogan 13:21 Right.

Zach Bitter 13:21 Like running flat, you're gonna kinda localize some of the way you stimulate your muscles or your gait is gonna be pretty similar throughout. Whereas, when you're on the trails, like you might be going on a slight incline, a steep incline, a slight decline, a little bit of flat, some rolling, all kinds of things in between.

Joe Rogan 13:35 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 13:35 And then trails can be kind of undulating, so you're just kind of moving all that forces around your legs a little more than you would be when you're running on a flat surface. So, you know, it's one of the things that I always tell, like my coaching clients and, and myself when I'm planning for something, is like s- if you really wanna meet your full potential, like specificity is king. You need to be on that environment in the environment you're gonna race on and really get your body used to kind of that type of a mo- motion. And, um, it makes it a little more interesting when you're doing a track race 'cause that means some kinda long runs on a track, so, um, you're kinda balancing doing just enough to get ready for it and not doing too much so that when you get to the race, you're like, "Screw this. I've done too much of this already. (laughs) I don't wanna see another loop." Um, yeah, it's kind of a, an interesting concept.

Joe Rogan 14:18 It's, it's interesting to me too that you're, if you're planning to run 100 miles, like what you were saying about running these shorter races as a training run-

Zach Bitter 14:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:25 ... which makes sense because how else are you gonna prepare for 100 miles? Like if you just decided to just go out and run 100 miles, you'd have to, like, map it out. Like how far is 100 miles?

Zach Bitter 14:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:34 Where am I gonna park?

Zach Bitter 14:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:36 Like, where am I gonna put water?

Zach Bitter 14:38 And, yeah. And then people also kinda get, uh, like forget about the aspect of just all the stuff surrounding the race that you can kinda fine-tune when you're doing a race as a kinda training run where, like, you know, usually you're gonna travel a little bit for stuff like this. Um, so you're probably gonna stay in a hotel the night before. You're gonna, you know, have to wake up early in the morning. You're gonna have to get your s- your, your gear ready. And so it's kinda like going through that, um, process of what you're gonna have to do on race day, so then when your big race comes up, you're like, "Okay, I've done this three or four times in the last six months, so I know what I'm doing."

Joe Rogan 15:10 Now, y- what's different between you and a lotta guys, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about this, is that you, you are on a fat-burning diet. You're essentially ... you're on a ketogenic diet-

Zach Bitter 15:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:22 ... and running these races.

Zach Bitter 15:24 Yeah. You know, it's, it's a little interesting because the way I kinda ... l- at least the way I came into it, like I explored the ketogenic diet mainly because I started noticing some things-

Joe Rogan 15:34 Try to pull this thing up, like-

Zach Bitter 15:35 Oh, sorry.

Joe Rogan 15:35 It's okay. No worries about it.

Zach Bitter 15:36 Yeah, yeah. So I, I started, um, kind of exploring the ketogenic diet back in late 2011 because I started noticing some, some goofy things going on with my body from, from the, from the tr- high level of training and then, and then the racing. And, um, that was right around that same time I did those three 50-milers in, in nine weeks.

Joe Rogan 15:53 What'd you notice?

Zach Bitter 15:55 Uh, y- I would wake up, like three or four times at night, and then, like I'd have to, like pee all the time at night. And I'd have, like swelling in my ankles and stuff. A lot of just, like huge energy swings throughout the day. Like I would ... You know, I was, I was a teacher at the time, so I remember thinking, like every day at like 1:00 or 2:00, I coulda laid down and take a nap on spot if I had, had the opportunity to. (laughs) So it was just like a lotta weird things that I thought was pretty n- abnormal for a th- 25-year-old male at the time. And, um, and so it was kinda becoming clear to me that what I was doing was either unsustainable or the way I was doing it was unsustainable. And, you know, I was really intrigued by the sport, and I didn't really wanna necessarily s- back off of that if I didn't have to. So that's when I kinda started to explore nutrition and diet and things like that. And, um, it, I, I was very much following what I woulda considered a healthy diet before that at the time. It was, it was high-carbohydrate, but it was like what you would, you know, think of as a healthy high-carbohydrate diet with like-

Joe Rogan 16:53 Like, what was a normal meal?

Zach Bitter 16:55 Um, you know, I'd wake up, and I'd- it'd usually go for a run and then have, like some oatmeal, raisins, maybe some fruit or something like that. Some, some eggs or something with, with that in the morning.

Joe Rogan 17:06 So not junk food, just high carbohydrates.

Zach Bitter 17:07 No, it was clean. It was like clean, like you know, you know what you say, they say, like get your whole grains, fruits, vegetables.

Joe Rogan 17:11 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 17:12 That sort of thing. I definitely, you know, focused heavily on that and made sure I wasn't eating, like junk ch- junk food. I wasn't going through fast food restaurants or eating Oreos and Bon Bons and that sort of thing, (laughs) so-

Joe Rogan 17:21 Right.

Zach Bitter 17:22 Um, so it was kinda interesting to me to think, like, "Okay, I, I didn't really realize that it was necessarily the nutritional side of things." Uh, like it wasn't, it wasn't like a big slap in the face in the sense that, "Oh, I just gotta cut out the junk," 'cause like y- according to most people, I wasn't eating junk. I was eating-

Joe Rogan 17:39 Right.

Zach Bitter 17:39 ... really good food. Um, so, you know, that's when I kinda got introduced to some folks like, uh, Dr. Volek and Dr. Phinny, who were kind of, I guess, I guess, they're pioneers of like the, this latest wave of kinda the high-fat approach. And, um, you know, they were ... uh, I started reading their books, listening to podcasts and things like that. And, and it, you know, it was interesting 'cause I, I was, I was training upwards of 20 hours a week at the time. And, you know, I started kinda thinking, like, "Uh, h- how much time am I gonna invest in, (laughs) in just running?" You know, "How can I kinda kill two birds with one stone?" And, and that's kinda when I discovered podcasts and thought, "S- this is sweet. I can learn something and train at the same time." Um, and so I just kinda like went all in on listening to a bunch of, you know, podcasts and stuff like that. And, um, actually one of your previous guests, uh, Ben Greenfield, was one of the first podcasts I really kinda did a deep dive into, and he was always kinda like-... uh, rolling out stuff that was, like, kinda new or cutting edge. So, like, um, he definitely had a lot of information there. And, um, I was for-

Joe Rogan 18:40 Yeah, he's a maniac.

Zach Bitter 18:41 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:42 Don't take his advice on what he does with his dick.

Zach Bitter 18:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:45 He's shooting stem cells into his dick and all that.

Zach Bitter 18:47 Yeah, he's turning himself into a guinea pig. But-

Joe Rogan 18:49 Yeah. He's, he's an odd duck. (laughs)

Zach Bitter 18:52 (laughs) But yeah, he, he definitely had a lot of info from-

Joe Rogan 18:55 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 18:55 ... guys like Dr. Finney and Dr. Volek. And, uh, you know, I, I was lucky to meet those guys too on a couple occasions. And, um, with, with Dr. Volek, I've done some podcasts with him, and certainly, uh, you know, like, exchanged emails and stuff when I've had questions. And, uh, so I kinda just tested it out, you know? I was like, "What's the worst that can happen? I can just ... I can always go back, you know?"

Joe Rogan 19:14 Right.

Zach Bitter 19:14 It's not like I have to stick to this for the rest of my life if it's not something-

Joe Rogan 19:16 So, your issues were swelling and energy. And, and b- how ... Why'd you attribute that to your diet? Like, what was making you think that it was your diet that was doing that to you?

Zach Bitter 19:25 Yeah, so, you know, I wasn't sure. I thought, I thought for sure that something I was doing was wrong and-

Joe Rogan 19:30 Did you get your blood work done, check your hormone levels, all that stuff?

Zach Bitter 19:33 Yeah, you know, I didn't have probably as much blood work done as I would've liked to, to really be like, look at stuff and, and see ... Like, the way I look at blood work is if you're doing it regular, like, often enough and not changing things, that's when you're gonna see the most, 'cause you're gonna see changes. Versus just, like, "Oh, I'm chronically low in this." Or-

Joe Rogan 19:51 Right.

Zach Bitter 19:51 ... "I'm always low in this, but it doesn't seem to be an issue." Uh, but, you know, there was no big red flags on my blood work. Like, nothing that would've say- had said, like-

Joe Rogan 19:59 Thyroid disease-

Zach Bitter 20:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:00 ... or something along those lines.

Zach Bitter 20:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:00 Right.

Zach Bitter 20:00 Nothing, nothing quite that wrong. And, you know, it wasn't like the wheels were coming off at that point. There were ... These were small things that I kinda associated as, like, nagging things. They, they were, like, things I could get through, um, but they weren't ideal. So, you know, I'm ki- I've kind of been a curious person, like, my whole life. So, I was, I'm, I'm, was just looking to kinda optimize, I guess, more or less. And, and I didn't know if it was gonna work. I'd, I was, was terrified that I'd find out it wasn't and then I would have to stop running as much.

Joe Rogan 20:30 Right.

Zach Bitter 20:30 And at the time, I was like, "That doesn't sound like what I wanna do." So, um, this was just something I decided to explore first. Um, and i- y- it's, it's really goofy because, like, I've certainly evolved in kinda how I use it from that ... when I first started. When I, when I first started, I went like really kinda really low carb, like that clinical ketosis level where you read about, where they're like 50 grams of carbohydrates or less. And, you know, I did that for about, I think it was like four to six weeks. And, um, I didn't have as hard of a time as what I think I've, I've, I've seen some people have with it. You know, you have people talking about everything from like the keto flu to just like feeling really lethargic for a while before that-

Joe Rogan 21:10 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 21:10 ... kinda metabolic switch flips. Um, what I kinda noticed was, um, I felt really good doing like really, like, low-level type mundane tasks, just like day-to-day work and things like that. But, like, maybe every second or third day, I'd go out for a run and just feel awful. And, um, I kinda knew enough about it that I thought, "Okay, gi- let's give this a solid four weeks before I make any judgements on whether that's gonna be something that sticks around or not." And, you know, after about that point, my energy levels kinda normalized. Um, and then, you know, I was ... So at that point, I was, like, excited. I was like, "This is sweet." I'm ... And well, I should've mentioned too, like, during that process, I started sleeping through the night again, which was, like, kind of really an eye-opening thing for me. Um, because usually, like, I'd wake up at least three times.

Joe Rogan 21:59 What do you attribute that to?

Zach Bitter 22:01 Um, you know, I, I don't know for sure. Uh, but, uh, you know, it could be anything from just the amount of stress I was causing on my body from kind of two angles, from the training plus, like ... You know, uh, like, I don't want to demonize carbohydrates 'cause I think they have a place. I think they're a great tool. I just think, like, the, the question everyone should ask is, at what level do they become kind of a margin of diminishing returns for you? And, you know, what I think was likely happening is that, you know, I was reaching past that margin of diminishing returns and, um, it was causing more stress than what my body was, was able to tolerate, and that was causing cortisol spikes or something like that, that was waking me up at night.

Joe Rogan 22:42 Hmm.

Zach Bitter 22:42 Um, but, you know, who knows really? Like, it's, uh, it ... All I know is the only thing at that time I changed was my diet and-

Joe Rogan 22:49 And we should probably point out that this is not universal. That everybody's diet is gonna affect them differently.

Zach Bitter 22:55 Oh, for sure.

Joe Rogan 22:55 Some people are fine with carbohydrates.

Zach Bitter 22:58 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:58 There's a lot of people out there (clears throat) that eat a high carbohydrate diet and they have zero issues with it-

Zach Bitter 23:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:02 ... whatsoever. And it's, that's one of the weirder things about people.

Zach Bitter 23:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:05 You know? Is, is that we are so variable-

Zach Bitter 23:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:07 ... depending upon your ancestry, you know, what part of the world they, they evolved.

Zach Bitter 23:11 Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me 'cause I mean, I'll look at folks doing complete opposite of who I am and they're, they're doing just fine.

Joe Rogan 23:17 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 23:17 Um, and it's ... You know, then I'll look at some folks too that are doing the opposite of me and they're doing just fine for a while, and then they ultimately start noticing the same kinda things I did and then they can clean it up. Uh, so it is kinda ... Yeah, I think at the end of the day, you just gotta be kinda honest with yourself. And, you know, some people, I think, are really, really robust (laughs) and they can, they can hit their body with that high-octane fuel of carbohydrate, like, day in and day out at a high level and it doesn't seem to bother 'em much.

Joe Rogan 23:46 Mmm.

Zach Bitter 23:46 But, you know, other people, like, yeah, I think just it, it can kinda ... It's like playing with rocket fuel a little bit, where, you know, a little bit can be great and, um, too much of it can kinda burn you up a little bit.

Joe Rogan 23:55 So you were saying that you started off at, like, 50 grams of carbohydrates a day, like, real strict ketosis diet.

Zach Bitter 24:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:01 What di- what did you eventually move to?

Zach Bitter 24:03 Um, e- so the way I call it is I periodize it. So, like, when I look at my year, you're, you can pick out a week where I'm kind of in peak training and then pick out a week where I'm kind of in, like, a recovery phase or off season, and it looks like two completely different lifestyles. So, my first thought after kind of, like, working through the whole ketogenic approach, um ... 'Cause I should add too, like, um, once I got, like, feeling good about that, I started adding back speed workouts and things like that, and I definitely noticed that I was missing kinda that last gear. Like it-

Joe Rogan 24:34 Hmm.

Zach Bitter 24:35 ... it was a lot more difficult to go out and really throttle down. Like, I could run all day at a slow pace, but if I decided to go out on the track and do, like, 400-meter repeats at, like, a really fast, like, a really fast pace, um, it was really hard to kinda-... to, to be able to do that.

Joe Rogan 24:50 That's a common complaint.

Zach Bitter 24:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:51 Uh, Robb Wolf, uh, you know Robb Wolf?

Zach Bitter 24:53 Yep, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:53 Robb Wolf had a similar issue, and he's gotten, like, very heavily into jujitsu, and he was telling me that he just can't stick to that 50 grams of carbohydrates a day-

Zach Bitter 25:02 Yes.

Joe Rogan 25:02 ... and still have the, the energy to go hard.

Zach Bitter 25:05 Mm-hmm. Does, does, do you know does Robb Wolf work out more than one time a day?

Joe Rogan 25:08 I do not know. Um, he looks very fit, though.

Zach Bitter 25:11 Okay.

Joe Rogan 25:11 I'm, I'm not sure what his, uh, what his schedule is, but I know he works out very hard. And if he's doing jujitsu, that's really, it's very difficult to do jujitsu any other way than hard.

Zach Bitter 25:20 Sure, yeah. You know, 'cause this is one thing I've always been curious about too, and, you know, uh, like, I'm not, I'm not trying to come, come on here and say, like, everyone should switch to doing what I do. I mean, I think you should follow your own, your own s- your own personal self and if, and be honest with yourself. You feel great, do what you're doing, if you don't, then probably look to change something. But, like, one thing I'm always looking at now or suspecting is that, like, it's more about the recovery between efforts than it is about the intensity of the effort or the duration of the effort in terms of how much carbs you need to bring back or wanna bring back. Because I've also had circumstances where, like, I'll do, like, a big workout or a race or something like that, and then I'll go really easy for, like, a week. And during that week, I'll go, like, super strict keto, um, 'cause I'm recovering. I'm not doing anything intense, I'm not doing anything too long. Um, so that's m- that's the point of my training where I kinda say, "All right, let's get rid of the start- the fast-acting fuel sources, I don't need 'em right now, and reset that whole fat adaptation thing." Um-

Joe Rogan 26:17 So you feel like you need the fast-acting fuel sources like carbohydrates, you only really need them when you're pushing hard.

Zach Bitter 26:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:23 When you're really running fast.

Zach Bitter 26:25 Yeah, and I actually think it's, it's when you're doubling down on those on a regular basis. So, like, if you're working out really hard for, like, 45 minutes to an hour a day, I think you can probably get away with almost a ketogenic or, like, a really low carbohydrate approach, because you're giving yourself, like, 23-plus hours between sessions for your body to kinda restock glycogen stores from other areas, like, you know, f- uh, from fat and proteins and things like that. I think when you start getting into a system where you're, like myself, I'm doing two-a-days a lot, and then sometimes one of those is a speed session. That's when I feel like I need to bring some of the carbohydrate back, and I think it's probably just to get some of the glycogen at a little faster rate. 'Cause that is gonna replenish your glycogen stores faster as a carbohydrate than, like, a fat or, or a protein probably would.

Joe Rogan 27:07 So how many grams of carbohydrates a day would you have on a day like that?

Zach Bitter 27:10 Um, y- uh, when I'm in, like, peak training, which is about 20 hours a week of running, strength training, and mobility type stuff, you know, I'll probably let myself get up to, like, 15 to 25% of my in- intake from carbohydrate. Um, y-

Joe Rogan 27:27 What do you think that is in grams?

Zach Bitter 27:29 Uh, ph- it probably d- it depends a lot on, like, what I actually do, um, 'cause I don't count calories very often. I, I used to just to kinda, like, see what was going on, and then I kinda got intuitive with it. Uh, gram-wise, you know, it's probably anywhere from, like, 200 to 300 maybe, and then when I'm in those phases of training, i- it's really intense in terms of, like, just, uh, or I shouldn't say intense, it's just really tedious in the amount of time and energy required for it.

Joe Rogan 27:55 Now, are you blood monitoring at that time? Are you checking your m- millimolar levels?

Zach Bitter 28:00 Uh, I am sometimes, like when I'm, uh, like when I get curious about that type of stuff, or I've done it in the past. I've actually ... What I did i- originally is I got the, the blood ketone monitor, and then I also got one of those KetOnyx, bu- like, it, it's like this little USB thing and then you blow into it, and then-

Joe Rogan 28:18 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 28:18 And-

Joe Rogan 28:18 How is- is that accurate?

Zach Bitter 28:20 Um, I think it- there's, I think there's varied results. I think they've gotten a lot better with it. Um, but what I did is I actually measured my blood ketone, and then I would use that and I tried to find kinda, like, if mine was matching what that thing would say.

Joe Rogan 28:33 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 28:34 So I kinda had an i- I got it to where I kinda had an idea where certain ranges on that thing would kind of indicate whether I was in ketosis or not. Um, so, like, I very much was coming out of ketosis during peak training. Like, when I would, especially when I would get up to 200, 300 grams of carbohydrate, I would come out of ketosis, uh, and I'd probably go back into ketosis throughout that ph- that, that phase. Um-

Joe Rogan 28:55 When you say go back in and come out, uh, like, what kind of a time period are you talking about?

Zach Bitter 29:00 Uh, y- it, it, the time period was more indicative about what I kinda ate during it too. Like, if I did, if, if, if I did ... Or I shouldn't say what I, like, how I kinda structured those 200 to 300 grams of carbohydrate, like if I did, like, a big bolus of it in one meal, I'd get back into ketosis a little quicker because then I wouldn't come back to the carbohydrates again for a while.

Joe Rogan 29:22 So would you vary in- inside the day?

Zach Bitter 29:25 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:26 Hm, interesting.

Zach Bitter 29:26 Like, I would st- like, if I, and h- and here's where it got kind of interesting, I guess, is I do a lot of my, the heaviest bulk of my training in the morning, so I typically wake up and have some, like, coffee with, like, coconut milk or heavy whipping cream or something like that, and then, uh, you know, go for my run. So then when I get back from a run, you know, it might be two hours, sometimes even three, and, uh, you know, at that point, I had just slept for eight to 10 hours. Then, you know, by the time I got down from my run, you know, I hadn't, I had probably hadn't e- I had essentially done, like, a small intermittent fast for the most part. Um, so, like, even when I had the higher amounts of carbohydrates, I'd find myself going back into ko- ketosis at the end of something like that sometimes. Um, but really, it was, to me, it wasn't necessarily a question of whether I was in ketosis or not, 'cause that really wasn't important to me. Um, like-

Joe Rogan 30:13 Performance is important.

Zach Bitter 30:14 Perfor- exactly, yeah. And what I wanted out of this approach was, um, I wanted to be able to rely on my body to, body to burn high levels of fat when I needed it to, but I also wanted to be metabolically flexible enough where if I needed to hit the gas pedal, I could do that as well. Um, and I think that's where people get a little, uh, uh, confused or up in arms or something because there's not a whole lot of studies that kinda y- uh, per- look at that specifically. Like, can you do that or can you not do that? Some people think it's kind of an all or nothing thing, where you either get really fat adapted or you get really carb-dependent, and then everything else is kinda like, you know, this gray area that you can't really get into. But-... that's not my experience. You know, my experience has been that, like, I can get... L- Look, h- here's my kind of litmus test. If I can go for, like, a four-hour or even five-hour run with no fuel other than water and electrolytes, then I'm fat-adapted enough. I don't need to get any more fat-adapted than that because I can eat during a race, and everyone else is going to be... So, like, I don't really need to get more fat-adapted after that from a p- performance standpoint. Um, so when I get to that point, then it's like, how many, how many carbohydrates can I bring back to kinda give me that extra nudge or that extra fuel substrate? Um. And-

Joe Rogan 31:28 Have you ever tried mixing exogenous ketones with carbohydrates?

Zach Bitter 31:33 Um, (sighs) not with carb-

Joe Rogan 31:35 'Cause Greenfield was talking about that.

Zach Bitter 31:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:36 And he said it's like doing steroids.

Zach Bitter 31:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:37 He said it was incredible.

Zach Bitter 31:38 Yeah, there's-

Joe Rogan 31:39 But again, he's, he's a maniac.

Zach Bitter 31:40 He is a maniac, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:41 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 31:41 There's, uh... Who else was it? Was it Dominic D'Agostino was playing around with that stuff quite a bit, too? Or he might have helped, uh, he might have helped, uh, with the, the creation of some of that stuff. I know there was... Uh, I'd have to look back in my emails and stuff. But I, I actually had, uh... There was a guy who was doing a real clinical version of the exogenous ketones and, um, he had sent me one a while back to kinda do a little test for him. And, uh, it, it was like just this little canister of exogenous ketone and he wanted me to kinda check my ketones when I woke up in the morning, take that, test it 15 minutes later, and then test again after my run.

Joe Rogan 32:18 Was that like a ketone ester?

Zach Bitter 32:20 Yeah, I think so.

Joe Rogan 32:21 Like super potent stuff.

Zach Bitter 32:22 Yup.

Joe Rogan 32:22 Tastes like Godzilla's dick.

Zach Bitter 32:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:24 Yeah. Matt Brown brought some of that in, it's like, "Woo."

Zach Bitter 32:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:27 (clears throat)

Zach Bitter 32:27 Did you test your ketones when you took it?

Joe Rogan 32:28 No, I didn't. I didn't have a monitor on me. But it tasted, uh, terrible but I felt great-

Zach Bitter 32:32 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:32 ... after it was o-... You... And you have to take it with, uh, glucose.

Zach Bitter 32:35 Yeah. Yeah, see, I think that's m- maybe that's where I messed up. But, uh, um, w- besides that, like my ketone levels shot up. I woke up that morning, I think I was at like 1.0 millimoles or something like that. I took that exogenous ketone, um, and 15 minutes later when I test I was at 3.7 millimoles.

Joe Rogan 32:53 Wow.

Zach Bitter 32:53 So it was like, "Okay, stuff works." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:55 Yeah, it works.

Zach Bitter 32:56 But I don't know... Here's what I... Here's my question, is with that stuff from a performance standpoint, is like it's... People are looking at that kind of, I think, more like an electrolyte where it's like I take this on top of my energy source, um, whereas that's actually an energy source, a fairly potent one, too.

Joe Rogan 33:13 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 33:14 So like when I'm out there racing and I'm trying to kinda limit... And I'm, I'm trying to eat a, a certain amount so that I kinda keep that energy where I want it, but I'm also trying not to go overboard because I don't want digestive stress. Um...

Joe Rogan 33:29 That's interesting. So like as you're running, you have to maintain like a certain amount of food in your system but you don't wanna have a large meal.

Zach Bitter 33:38 Yeah, yeah. 'Cause like basically the way I... It... Sim- to simply put it, like digestion requires blood volume, you know, to move into your gut and like digest the food. So when you're running, especially when it's hot, your body's also trying to use your, your blood volume for muscle function and cooling and things like that. So by kind of introducing another use for that blood volume, your body's prob-... Is, is running out of resources to kind of make all those things run smoothly, um, which is why a lot of times in ultra-marathons people find out, like they have the worst luck with like throwing up and stomach issues when it gets really hot out, because their body's gotta go double down on the cooling side of things with the blood volume and then it's like, "Well, something's gotta give," so it just pukes up (laughs) everything you put in your stomach.

Joe Rogan 34:21 Oh, wow.

Zach Bitter 34:22 Um, yeah. So, you know-

Joe Rogan 34:23 Is there a way to mitigate that?

Zach Bitter 34:25 Uh, eat less. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:26 That's it?

Zach Bitter 34:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:27 Just... So when you... When... If you're running, like what's a size portion? Like what do you... What would you eat? Say if you're doing a 100 miler-

Zach Bitter 34:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:32 ... and you have to pause for fuel.

Zach Bitter 34:34 Um, you know, I'll, I'll typically aim for around 100 to 200 calories an hour when I'm doing, uh, doing a 100 miler. And to kind of put that in perspective, when I was, uh, high carb I was aiming for 300, 400, sometimes even 500 calories an hour. So when I kind of went into the approach where fat was my primary fuel source, the, the need for that carbohydrate essentially got cut in half if not more. And for me that's a win as long as energy levels are the same, because it means I have to eat less during the race. If I can-

Joe Rogan 35:04 Right.

Zach Bitter 35:04 ... it's one less logistic thing, one less potential stomach issue. Um-

Joe Rogan 35:08 So what, what's a, a typical meal?

Zach Bitter 35:11 A typical meal, like in-

Joe Rogan 35:12 While you're running.

Zach Bitter 35:12 Oh, while I'm running? Uh, you know, I usually stick to like, uh, um, uh, like water-based stuff. So like I'll use a product called, um, Xendurance Fuel 5. And it's essentially like a really, really high-level sports drink. Um, with like a varying am-... It's got... It's, it's carbohydrate-based and I can tell you why I use carbohydrates instead of fats during a race in a minute, too, if you want, um. But it's like five different types of kind of carbohydrate that release at varying points. You get some that's kind of a little quick jolt and others that are more sustained like, kinda like a sweet potato type of a release. Um, so I'll be just trickling that in. So like if I'm doing like a 100 miler and let's say I'm, I'm aiming for like 30 to 40 ounces of water, uh, per hour to kind of stay on top of hydration, I'll put, um, you know, two... Like, 100 to 200 calories with that stuff in that water. So then I'm kinda killing two birds with one stone in getting my fuel in as well as hydrating at the same time.

Joe Rogan 36:07 So what... And why are you taking carbohydrates while you're running instead of fats?

Zach Bitter 36:10 Yeah, so that's, that's the other thing. Like... And, and I see this as, as somewhat of a... I don't know if it's an issue necessarily, but it's an interesting thing for... At, uh, at the very least is when you... When I talk to folks who are like really into the high fat approach, you know, some of them are like zero carb or like really ketogenic all the time 24/7. Uh, they'll be taking in like fat sources during a race and I've never understood that, um, just because when you look at your body's energy systems during a race, like you have your glycogen stores and then you have body fat. And I think a lot of people kinda get misled and they think, "Oh, I'm a really lean runner so I can't rely on body fat," when in reality even the leanest endurance athletes have enough body fat to get through an endurance race. Like even if you're 4%, 5% body fat at m- at your leanest, you... That's a much bigger fuel source than your glycogen reserves. So-When I'm doing a race, I've got enough fat to take care of the fat metabolizing portion of that energy, uh, requirement for the race. What I might run out of is those glycogen stores, which are really small in comparison. So I'm trying to just slowly trickle in the g- the, the sugar or the carbohydrate during a race, um, just enough to kinda keep my glycogen stores where I wanna be so I can hit the gas if I need to, um, but not at the level where it's gonna cause stomach distress or compromise, or heavily compromise my body's, like, willingness or ability to burn fat either.

Joe Rogan 37:34 That's fascinating. So like, as you're running, your body could switch back and forth between fats and carbohydrates because you're so fat-adapted?

Zach Bitter 37:42 Yeah, and I ... You know, it's actually probably happening, like, simultaneously-

Joe Rogan 37:45 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 37:45 ... it's just at different rates. Like, ooh- Like, someone who's really fat-adapted, they could be running kinda the same effort, and the fat-adapted person might be, like, burning 80% fat, 20% carbohydrate, and the carb-dependent person might be like a 50/50 split.

Joe Rogan 37:58 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 37:59 So that carb-dependent person's gonna exhaust their glycogen stores a lot quicker, or they're gonna have to fuel themselves at a much higher rate to make up for that deficit. And, um, when you look at, like, how difficult that is, 'cause, you know, some of these ... Especially some of these mountain races where you're running uphill, it's like you, you might be burning 800-plus calories an hour and it's really hard-

Joe Rogan 38:18 Yeah, that's a different animal, right?

Zach Bitter 38:20 Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, and it's really hard to replace that on the fly.

Joe Rogan 38:23 Yeah, those running uphill ones-

Zach Bitter 38:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:24 ... I would, I would think that's a f- much more difficult race.

Zach Bitter 38:28 Yeah, you know, I mean, it's a different set-up. It's, you know ... I- it's one of those things where I'm pretty new to that actually. Like, um, most of my ultra-running career, I focus more on flat stuff, and part of that's just 'cause I've lived in a lot of flat areas. And like I was kinda saying earlier, if you really wanna nail a race, you have to be specific. So I learned kinda early, probably around like 2013 or so, that it was in my best interest to make my peak races flat ones if I really wanted to meet my full potential. Um, now I live in Phoenix, so I've got a lot more access to mountains. You know, I can get onto the trails and, and do some significant climbing right out my back door, so, um, I've certainly been able to practice that more. And as I've gotten more competent at it, I do recognize like, oh, it's not quite as hard as I thought it was originally. 'Cause I was going into it essentially under-trained.

Joe Rogan 39:14 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 39:14 Whereas now, it's like I go into it, I'm like, "Oh, I'm, I'm more adjusted to this." So ... I mean, it's still hard. Like going uphill is hard no matter how you skin it, but it's like ... It's one of those things where if you kind of figure out the pace, it shouldn't be any more hard. Like, f- it should be just as hard to run flat because you're gonna have to run faster.

Joe Rogan 39:32 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 39:33 Um, and it's just then it just comes down to, I think, the right training and, you know, pacing and everything right.

Joe Rogan 39:37 It's interesting. You're saying you're living in Phoenix. Do you run in the summer in Phoenix? 'Cause Phoenix is fucking insanely hot.

Zach Bitter 39:44 (laughs) So I, I moved there in January, so ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:46 Good move.

Zach Bitter 39:47 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:48 Big wake-up call come June.

Zach Bitter 39:50 I, yeah- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:50 You're like, "Whoa!" (laughs)

Zach Bitter 39:51 Yeah, it'll be, it'll be warm. Um, I actually kinda like it because right now, I'm, I'm training for the Western States 100, and that's in ... It starts in Squaw Valley and ends in Auburn, California. Uh, and they go through, like, these four canyons that get, can get brutally hot, like 110 plus some years. Um, and, like-

Joe Rogan 40:08 Do you run with like a vest where you have water bottles attached to you or anything?

Zach Bitter 40:12 Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:13 Yeah?

Zach Bitter 40:13 Th- uh, that stuff has come such a long way since I started the sport. I remember when I first started, it was pretty primitive type stuff, and now the, the sport is ... I think through-hiking plays a big role in this too. It has gotten like so popular or popular enough where now companies are really t- dialing that stuff in, where you can get like a pack, um, that just sits nice and snug on you, and you can put wat- ... Like I use, I, I use a brand called Nathan. They have like ones that have bladders on the back where they also have ones you can put water bottles on the front. Um, and then just, you know, different set-ups and stuff. So, so yeah, that, that's like a must (laughs) in a, in the heat.

Joe Rogan 40:47 Yeah, I mean, 'cause even in early mornings-

Zach Bitter 40:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:48 ... it's gotta be brutal in Phoenix, right?

Zach Bitter 40:50 Yeah. Uh, I mean, I'm h- I have yet to see the worst of it. Uh-

Joe Rogan 40:53 Why'd you move there?

Zach Bitter 40:54 Uh, well, part of it was, um, I-

Joe Rogan 40:57 You wanna carry a gun?

Zach Bitter 40:59 E- well. (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 41:01 (laughs) .

Zach Bitter 41:01 I'm looking into-

Joe Rogan 41:01 Phoenix has got crazy laws for that.

Zach Bitter 41:03 Let's ... Well, I moved from Sacramento, so let's say I'm looking into that now. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:07 (laughs) .

Zach Bitter 41:07 But yeah, so it's, um ... It, it w- it was a combination of things. For me, like, uh, I'm trying to kind of balance a few different things. I, I, I train a lot. I also work for one of my primary sponsors, Altra Footwear, uh, and y- like, for me to be able to kinda do the stuff for them that I was wanting to do, it made more sense to be in Phoenix, just like-

Joe Rogan 41:27 Like product testing and stuff like that?

Zach Bitter 41:29 Yeah, that and just, like, putting on, like, like, small group runs and events and things like that in the area. Uh, like, if I wanted to invest ... Or if I wanted to kind of appropriately handle the territory, Phoenix made a lot more sense than Sacramento. Northern California has just grown so much for that company in the last couple years that, like, they needed to get someone in there who was gonna do full-time plus to really cover the area. Um, and then I, you know, I also got engaged in, in January as well, so, uh, um, my fiance, she, she was best served being in the Phoenix area too, so-

Joe Rogan 42:01 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 42:01 ... it was kind of a mutual, uh ... She was from Dallas originally, and, um, Phoenix was kind of like a, a mutually good spot for both of us. So, uh, um, we, we both kinda looked at it as like, "Well, what do we want?" And it was, we want trails right in our backyard, but we also want access to flat stuff. And we, we actually kinda want the heat because it like ... There's races where you need that to train for, so when it gets hot earlier, you can prepare for them, uh, much earlier in the year.

Joe Rogan 42:27 What a crazy reason to move to Phoenix.

Zach Bitter 42:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:30 I would ... I'm, I'm enjoying the heat for training. (laughs)

Zach Bitter 42:32 Yeah. (laughs) Well, I'm not even the craziest one in the house. My, my fiance is a savage. She, uh-

Joe Rogan 42:37 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 42:38 (laughs) Yeah, her name is Nicole Kalogieropoulos. She s- like, you know how ... Like I thought, I've always thought I'm a hard worker, and someone who like puts a lot of time and effort into things I do. And then I met her, and, uh, you know, I like to ... Uh, she's, she's cut from the jackal cloth, let's put it that way. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:51 Mm-hmm. Nice.

Zach Bitter 42:53 So yeah, yeah, she'll do like ... She, she works for a company called Towers Watson, um, and, uh, kinda does, uh, manages the Midwest division for like stuff. So she'll be on like a conference call with Amazon and then, you know, go out and run three hours after that, and then come back and get on another conference call, and just keeps going and going and going.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Wow.

Zach Bitter 43:11 So yeah, it's, uh, you know, it- it was ... It made sense for her job and my job to kinda be in Phoenix. And with as busy as she is and as busy as I can get from time to time, like, it's nice to be able to go out your backyard and be on the trail five minutes later, whereas both of us didn't have that before. We both had to drive to get to any kinda trail, especially her. Dallas, it was a lot of just, like, flat road running-

Joe Rogan 43:32 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 43:32 ... in her area, so, um-

Joe Rogan 43:35 Dallas doesn't have hardly any hills, right?

Zach Bitter 43:37 No, no. Well, and that's- that's- that's what is impressive with ... Like, so she's done Western States a few times, the race I was telling you about before with the canyons. And, uh, she's been sixth place there twice, just training on flat roads basically. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:49 That's crazy. Do- does she do anything to augment that, like s- doing lunges or anything like that?

Zach Bitter 43:54 Uh, (sighs) she does, uh, some strength work and stuff. But really, you know, a lot of it was just, you know, she would go out and run and run a lot. And then I'm sure, like, she hasn't met her full potential at that specific event or certainly, like, mountain-type races just because-

Joe Rogan 44:08 She wasn't trained in mountains, right?

Zach Bitter 44:10 Yeah. Right, yeah. And she's- she's good though, so like ... I mean, she was a Division One recruit for college and stuff back in the day, so like, you know, she's got some running talent, no doubt. Um, and then she puts in the work 'cause consistency is a huge thing. Like, if you can't find the specific stuff and you're really geeked about a specific race, like, I don't think not having the right training environment is reason to not do it if you're excited to do it. Um, so like, for her, she was more excited to get out on the trails than she was to go, you know, do something on a track or a flat road like I was. So, um, for her it was like, "Even if I'm not quite where I would like to be, I'm gonna do it anyway."

Joe Rogan 44:44 Now, I- I'm not familiar with Altra footwear, but what I wanted to ask you is does anybody wear, like, minimalist shoes and run these o- ultra-marathons?

Zach Bitter 44:54 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there was a ... There was actually a gal, I cannot remember her name, this was a couple years ago, who- who ran ultras in, um, those Vibram FiveFingers. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:03 Really?

Zach Bitter 45:03 Yeah, yeah, and the trail stuff too, so, um, you know-

Joe Rogan 45:07 She must've been a beast.

Zach Bitter 45:08 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I-

Joe Rogan 45:09 It's hard to run just a couple miles in those things.

Zach Bitter 45:11 Yeah, and it's- a- you know, it- it's interesting because ... So Altra footwear made this shoe this last year called, uh, the- the Vanish, and it's essentially a minimalist shoe, um, just like a little bit of fabric on the top, super f- super hard flat base, and that's kinda what I like when I'm on a road or a track. Um, so I was wearing that-

Joe Rogan 45:29 It's called the Vanish?

Zach Bitter 45:30 The Vanish, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:30 Can you pull that up and see what that looks like?

Zach Bitter 45:32 And it's, uh ... (laughs) So I- I went to this- this- this Altra race and I wore those thinking I'm gonna have the lightest shoe out of anyone here. Three guys show up running completely barefoot.

Joe Rogan 45:41 What? (laughs)

Zach Bitter 45:43 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:43 They ran an ultra-marathon barefoot?

Zach Bitter 45:45 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:45 Dude, that's another level.

Zach Bitter 45:46 Yeah. There was one, there was one guy who's-

Joe Rogan 45:48 Jesus Christ.

Zach Bitter 45:49 He's like a 222 or 223 marathoner, and he's barefoot and he said, like, the- right-

Joe Rogan 45:54 He runs a marathon barefoot?

Zach Bitter 45:56 So he doesn't do the marathon barefoot. He actually said that, uh, the-

Joe Rogan 45:59 So that's a little bit of padding in that, it looks like, or at least th- there's a lip on the outside.

Zach Bitter 46:04 Is that the Vanish or is that the s- is that the-

Joe Rogan 46:05 It says Vanish logo.

Zach Bitter 46:06 Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, there's- there's a little bit there is like a ... It's like a carbon fiber plate, and you see where that little cut is in there?

Joe Rogan 46:13 Mm-hmm. Right.

Zach Bitter 46:13 There's like a carbon fiber plate in there that makes it a little more firm.

Joe Rogan 46:16 I see.

Zach Bitter 46:16 So what I'm looking for in a shoe when I'm looking for kind of like that natural feel is something that's got a firm mid-sole or a firm durometer because, like, I don't want to squish down into the shoe. I wanna pop right off the ground. Um, and I think, like, really, like that is ju- ... I mean, you've probably experienced this with the, with the Vibrams where like, um, if you spend the time, your foot- feet get stronger and stronger and stronger.

Joe Rogan 46:40 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 46:40 And it's only a matter of time before they get stronger and you just gotta keep kinda working at it, just like, you know, a- a- a weight lifter, you know, when they start out weight lifting, they're nowhere near where they are 10 years later.

Joe Rogan 46:50 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 46:50 Um, so like for me, back in 2012, I think, I kinda like ... You know, I read Born to Run. Uh, you've heard of that book?

Joe Rogan 46:59 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've heard it's amazing.

Zach Bitter 47:00 Yeah. You know, I- I- I read that and I was like, "This is intriguing." You know, and it made a lotta sense too. It's like, you know, if we were meant to have a wedge on our heel, like, we would've had a wedge on our heel. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:12 Yeah. No, that's- that's a ridiculous thing that Nike came up with, and it's-

Zach Bitter 47:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:16 ... really unfortunate that so many people have adopted that and they run heel-first like that.

Zach Bitter 47:20 Yeah, well, and- and the problem I think too is that like the ... a shoe is essentially a cast for your foot.

Joe Rogan 47:27 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 47:27 Even- even that Vanish that I had up there, that's a little cast compared to what you're normally gonna see, but it's still a cast.

Joe Rogan 47:32 That's why I like those FiveFingers-

Zach Bitter 47:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:35 ... because there's nothing. There's just a-

Zach Bitter 47:36 Yep.

Joe Rogan 47:36 ... very, very flexible-

Zach Bitter 47:38 Little rubber-

Joe Rogan 47:38 ... piece of rubber underneath-

Zach Bitter 47:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:39 ... and it's a glove for your, for your feet.

Zach Bitter 47:42 Yeah, yeah. And, you know, people just don't know that, I think, that you can really work those foot muscles to a point where you can exhaust them the way you would in a shoe. Um, it just takes a lotta time 'cause like if I broke my arm and put a cast on it and then like six, eight weeks later got the cast taken off, I went back in the weight room and did a normal routine, I would be wrecked the next day.

Joe Rogan 48:01 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zach Bitter 48:02 So when you take your foot out of that shoe cast you have it in or take it out of the position it's gotten used to-

Joe Rogan 48:07 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 48:07 ... and put it in a different position, it's like taking a cast off and trying to do that full mode of, mode of, uh, training or motion. So like, you know, I- when I first kinda got an ultra running ice, I- I worked my way down to a minimalist shoe. I spent probably six months before I was running exclusively in something that was, um, really l- minimalist. And when I say minimalist, I mean zero drop and no cushion or little to no cushion, 'cause I think some people confuse that too. Like that ... the- the shoe you saw up there 'cause you were like, "Oh, it looks like it's got a little bit of padding there."

Joe Rogan 48:39 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 48:39 So that's like zero drop with cushioning.

Joe Rogan 48:41 Right.

Zach Bitter 48:41 Or that shoe really doesn't have a lot of cushioning, but um, there are shoes that Altra makes that does. And what that does is it takes you from like ... The way I describe it is this is someone in like a- um, someone in a traditional running shoe, real built up, cushioned, a lotta support is on one end of the spectrum. Barefoot runner like those dudes that I ran into at the track, um, they're on the other end of the spectrum. There's all these steps in between to get to that.

Joe Rogan 49:04 Mm.

Zach Bitter 49:05 So like-

Joe Rogan 49:05 I can't believe people run ultras barefoot.

Zach Bitter 49:08 Yeah, it's crazy. I don't think there's too many people doing it.

Joe Rogan 49:10 Look at this fucking savage.

Zach Bitter 49:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:12 Look at this dude. Barefoot Ted is his name.

Zach Bitter 49:13 Oh, yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 49:14 Barefoot Ted.

Zach Bitter 49:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:15 Hi, Ted. He also uses this-

Zach Bitter 49:17 The sandal, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:18 This shoe.

Zach Bitter 49:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:19 Runs in a sandal? Yeah. Mm. Well that ... It wasn't that w- uh, in the Born to Run that these guys had made sandals out of tires.

Zach Bitter 49:25 Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:26 I- I've been using something called a s- pull up this Vivo, Vivo Barefoot.... I've been using these. Um, what I like about these is that I don't have to look where I step. There's no cushioning at all. The trail one, I'll use that one on the far left. The far left? Yeah, that one. Um, there's no cushion to it-

Zach Bitter 49:45 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 49:45 ... but it's got some tread, and the bottom is hard enough so that I can run on hard rocks and I don't think about it.

Zach Bitter 49:52 Sure.

Joe Rogan 49:52 It's hard to tell in that image how little there is underneath it, but there's, uh, there's nothing going on in, in terms of like ... There's no squish to it at all.

Zach Bitter 50:02 Sure.

Joe Rogan 50:02 There's just some good-sized knobs so you have, uh, some good, um, some good tread, you know, so you can, you know, you can get good traction on- in dirt and mud and stuff like that.

Zach Bitter 50:13 Yeah. That-

Joe Rogan 50:14 But they weight nothing.

Zach Bitter 50:15 That's ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:16 You know what I'm saying?

Zach Bitter 50:16 And you can crinkle that thing up.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 50:17 So your foot muscles are flexing every which way they want.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 50:19 That's cool. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:21 I- I've ... It's made a big difference with me, man. But honestly, the FiveFingers are probably the best for that. They just don't have as much traction and I have to look where I'm stepping.

Zach Bitter 50:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:30 You know? Like, I have to be careful. Like, sharp rocks and stuff-

Zach Bitter 50:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:34 ... I have to look down, "Don't step on that one. Look out." I don't like looking.

Zach Bitter 50:37 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:37 I'd rather just run.

Zach Bitter 50:38 Just-

Joe Rogan 50:38 And with those, I can just run.

Zach Bitter 50:39 Just flow through it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:40 I can get a f- faster pace with those.

Zach Bitter 50:42 Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's, that's, that's where I kinda draw the line too, is like when I'm on the roads and on the track, I don't mind having that, like, no cushion type of thing. But then when I go on, like, the trails in Phoenix, it's very rocky-

Joe Rogan 50:52 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 50:53 ... and hard, and then I'll use, like, a shoe called the King MT that's kinda like the one you had there. It's a little less nimble, I would say, than that one, but it's got that, that, like, really aggressive lug. It's got the foot-shaped toe box so I don't feel like my feet are getting pinched together.

Joe Rogan 51:06 What, what do you think Barefoot Ted does on, like, those-

Zach Bitter 51:08 On the trails?

Joe Rogan 51:09 Those trails.

Zach Bitter 51:10 I think he probably wears those sandals. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:12 Oh. Probably, right? Yeah.

Zach Bitter 51:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:13 Just something-

Zach Bitter 51:14 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 51:14 ... where he's got just something that keeps them from getting cut.

Zach Bitter 51:17 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:18 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 51:18 But there are guys who just do that barefoot too.

Joe Rogan 51:21 Fucking animals.

Zach Bitter 51:21 I think there's very few, but it's- it's- it's doable.

Joe Rogan 51:24 Have you ever seen that show Dual Survivor? It's one of those wacky survivor shows.

Zach Bitter 51:29 Oh, I don't know if I've seen that one.

Joe Rogan 51:30 Well, this one guy, I think his name's Corey, who has the most disgusting feet-

Zach Bitter 51:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:35 ... I've ever seen in my life. Almost as disgusting as that one guy who was cutting the- the bottom-

Zach Bitter 51:39 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 51:39 ... of his feet off and feeding it to dogs.

Zach Bitter 51:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:41 You know that guy with the knife?

Zach Bitter 51:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:43 Yeah. That video's awful to watch. But, uh, this guy walks barefoot everywhere.

Zach Bitter 51:47 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 51:47 And his idea is, like, you gotta toughen your feet up-

Zach Bitter 51:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:50 ... because you might not have shoes. You know, they- they get real crazy with this whole survivalist thing.

Zach Bitter 51:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:54 So this guy's basically has, I'm not joking, like a good solid half-inch of callus under his entire foot. And it's-

Zach Bitter 52:03 It's amazing what the human body will do when you put it in a position to need to. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:06 Yeah. When it has to adapt.

Zach Bitter 52:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:08 I mean, that's one of the reasons why I'm fascinated by guys like you, these ultra-runners, is because the- for the average person, that's an impossible feat. But you've built ... There's that guy's foot. Look at that. Dude.

Zach Bitter 52:19 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:19 What in the fuck?

Zach Bitter 52:20 It's like ... It looks like elephant skin.

Joe Rogan 52:21 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 52:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:22 It's fucking gnarly. Um, but the ... Guys like you have adapted your body to this position where you know you can do that-

Zach Bitter 52:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:31 ... and it's just a matter of putting in the training runs and making sure you're fueling up correctly and, you know, a, a 100-mile race is not a question whether or not you could do it. It's how fast you could do it.

Zach Bitter 52:41 Yeah. You know, it's- it's interesting. The- the cool thing, and this might go back to what you asked, like, why ultra-marathons? And I- I think it is ... Part of it too is, like, in 100 miles, it's almost like it's not a matter of when is something gonna go wrong, it's a ... Or I- I should say if something is gonna go wrong, it's a matter of when and how do you respond to it.

Joe Rogan 52:59 Right.

Zach Bitter 53:00 So-

Joe Rogan 53:00 Like, what's a typical thing that goes wrong?

Zach Bitter 53:02 Um, you know, I think a lot of people will s- have, like, cramping or they'll- they'll bonk. I mean, this is one of the reasons why I love the high-fat approach, is because, like, bonking from the, like, energy side of things is essentially nonexistent.

Joe Rogan 53:15 Explain bonking if people don't know what you're talking about.

Zach Bitter 53:17 So- so bonking is essentially what happens. And it's- it's ... I think it's actually more common in a marathon just because people are running a lot faster in those. But essentially what's happening is you're depleting your glycogen stores to the point where your body doesn't really have access to that fuel substrate anymore. And if you are trying ... If you're not good at metabolizing fat or you cannot burn fat at a high rate and at a decent clip, it grinds you to a halt. You can see people staggering and falling over and losing their mind, hallucinating, and stuff like that in those situations. Um, so, like, you know, bonking is something that is- is an issue with ultra-marathoners 'cause you're out there for so long if you get behind on fueling, you know, you could bonk and stuff like that.

Joe Rogan 53:56 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 53:57 So, you know, part of the reason ... You know, I talked about before with, like, there's a lot of logistics with an ultra-marathon, and there's a ... these variables are just- just- just so prevalent when you're out there that long, that if you can eliminate some of those or reduce the potential of them flaring up, that's usually a win 'cause then there's less chance of something popping up that you wouldn't expect or an uncertain thing happening during the race, and ... But I mean, they- they still happen. You know, I've done the ... I would say the most efficient 100-miler I've done is, uh, when I- I ran 11 hours and 40 minutes and 55 seconds at a race in 2015, called-

Joe Rogan 54:27 Holy shit. You ran-

Zach Bitter 54:29 That-

Joe Rogan 54:29 You ran 100 miles in 11 hours?

Zach Bitter 54:32 Yeah. That was- that was on a tr- that was one on the track in- in sp-

Joe Rogan 54:34 I don't give a fuck if it was on the moon.

Zach Bitter 54:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:36 That's crazy. You ran 11 hours, you ran 100 miles?

Zach Bitter 54:41 Yeah. So I think the thing that-

Joe Rogan 54:44 How long does it take to drive 100 miles?

Zach Bitter 54:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:46 Okay. It takes at lea- I mean, if you go 100 miles an hour, it takes an hour. You go 50 miles, it takes two.

Zach Bitter 54:49 Well, it- it might take me longer to get to the airport if the traffic on the 405 is bad.

Joe Rogan 54:52 That is fucking cra-

Zach Bitter 54:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:54 How Zach Fitter broke the US 100-mile record. You averaged seven fucking minutes per mile-

Zach Bitter 55:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:04 ... for almost 12 hours. Dude. That is insane. That is fucking insane. Bert Kreischer, he brags when he runs seven-minute miles-

Zach Bitter 55:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:15 ... for, like, three miles. He's done it, yeah. (laughs)

Zach Bitter 55:17 What did- what did Bert end up running that, the LA marathon in?

Joe Rogan 55:19 Six- six-and-a-half.

Zach Bitter 55:20 Six-and-a-half?

Joe Rogan 55:21 Yeah, I think it was close to that, yeah. I think it was- I think it was shorter than that. I think it was five, five-something. Yeah. No, no, no. Ari's dad- Yeah, five-and-a-half. Yeah, about five-and-a-half.

Zach Bitter 55:27 Five-and-a-half?

Joe Rogan 55:27 Ari's ... He's ... "Whoa. Fucking Jamie! Jamie's giving me a bad rep!"... long shower.

Zach Bitter 55:32 Well- (laughs) ... I'll say, I'll say, I'll say-

Joe Rogan 55:33 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 55:33 ... this here. Bert, if you're listening, contact me, I'll get you to four and a half in six months.

Joe Rogan 55:38 Ooh.

Zach Bitter 55:38 Bert. (laughs) You heard him.

Joe Rogan 55:39 New challenge.

Zach Bitter 55:40 (laughs) Zach is the fucking man.

Joe Rogan 55:42 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 55:42 If he tells you, you can do it. Dude, that is- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:44 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 55:44 ... that is an incredible number, that you broke the US 100-mile record by running seven fucking minutes per mile. It's- It's- ... that's crazy. The thing, the interesting thing I thought- (sniffs) . ... about that event was, when I was talking about efficiency, is I stopped twice during that race. And it was for maybe a total of like 60, at most 90- (sniffs) . ... seconds total. And it was just, it was just to pee two times. So like- Do you ever thought about just peeing your pants and just keep running? Well, I- (laughs) Wear black shorts, keep the party rolling. There was a guy who did that, uh, ph- it was two years before I did that race. And he was trying to break 13 hours and he was like right on the edge. I don't know, he just whipped it out and peed all over the track, I'm pretty sure.

Joe Rogan 56:25 Oh, God.

Zach Bitter 56:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:26 Why wouldn't he be just peeing his own pants?

Zach Bitter 56:28 I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably what I would do. And, and, um, it's a- Yeah, that guy doodied himself.

Joe Rogan 56:33 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 56:33 Well, ev-

Joe Rogan 56:34 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 56:34 ... everyone who's been doing endurance sport long enough will have a, have a situation like that, unfortunately, for- That guy's got it in the front of his legs. (laughs) He must have just exploded. He lost it.

Joe Rogan 56:43 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 56:43 It must've been a bomb, bomb went off. Yeah. Oof, yeah, it's, uh, you know, it's- It's okay to poop your pants. (laughs) This guy has a sign. (laughs) Is that him?

Joe Rogan 56:51 I don't think so. I don't know.

Zach Bitter 56:51 The same guy or?

Joe Rogan 56:52 I don't know. I don't know.

Zach Bitter 56:52 Different person. (sniffs) Yeah, it's very, uh, sensitive subject for folks. Yeah. Pooping your pants. Yeah. It, it's a, it's a running joke in the endurance running community, though, 'cause if you do it long enough, it's gonna probably happen to you eventually. Oh.

Joe Rogan 57:04 Oh, it has to, right?

Zach Bitter 57:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:05 I would imagine. You're running 100 miles and your body's gonna, there's-

Zach Bitter 57:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:09 ... gonna be misfires.

Zach Bitter 57:10 For sure.

Joe Rogan 57:11 Ho- how do you time your meals? Like before you run. Like say if you're gonna run 100 miles, when's your last meal before you get there?

Zach Bitter 57:17 Yeah, so I'll eat a big dinner the night before, probably around like 4:00 or 5:00.

Joe Rogan 57:21 And what would that be?

Zach Bitter 57:22 Um, so I'll do like a huge steak. Uh, I try to keep-

Joe Rogan 57:27 16 ounces, 20 ounces?

Zach Bitter 57:28 Yeah, at least. Um-

Joe Rogan 57:29 Really?

Zach Bitter 57:30 Mm-hmm. 16, 20's probably a pretty good number.

Joe Rogan 57:32 How much do you weigh?

Zach Bitter 57:33 Uh, 140 pounds, give or take.

Joe Rogan 57:35 That's a lot of fucking meat.

Zach Bitter 57:36 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:37 That's crazy.

Zach Bitter 57:38 Well, this is where it gets fascinating with the lifestyle thing I was telling you about, is like there's days during the year where like I'm in training where I'm metabolizing two to three times my resting metabolic rate. So I've got to feed myself appropriately for that. Um, and that means a lot of steak. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:53 Wow. So is that your primary food source?

Zach Bitter 57:56 Um, I don't know if I'd say steak for sure, but definitely fatty meat sources. Um, a lot of like, uh, like saturated fat based oils like coconut oil, um, like ghee, that sort of thing. Um, but yeah, I don't s- I don't shy away from meat. I usually have meat or eggs for e- for- for every meal, for the most part.

Joe Rogan 58:16 Interesting.

Zach Bitter 58:17 Or in every meal, I should say.

Joe Rogan 58:18 Yeah, there's a lot of talk lately about the carnivore diet.

Zach Bitter 58:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 58:21 There's a lot of people that are delving into that, including Jordan Peterson's daughter, which is a really interesting case because she had severe autoimmune disorder. Like she had some severe issues with-

Zach Bitter 58:33 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 58:33 ... like horrible arthritis, where she's had, um, I know she's had hip replacements and I believe she's having an ankle replaced soon too.

Zach Bitter 58:42 Okay.

Joe Rogan 58:42 Like s- like severe issues. And if she eats anything other than meat, it flares up-

Zach Bitter 58:49 Mm.

Joe Rogan 58:49 ... horribly. It's really crazy.

Zach Bitter 58:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:51 Like, I n- I've never... I mean, I'm gonna, I wanna try to talk to her, maybe even get her in here. But, um, I, I've never heard anything like that.

Zach Bitter 58:57 I thought I heard somewhere, um, it was after the last time you had Jordan on, where he was telling you about how he just basically eats meats and greens, where he-

Joe Rogan 59:04 And that was on his daughter's recommendation.

Zach Bitter 59:05 Yeah, I think he's cut out all vegetables right now, for at least a trial. I, I think-

Joe Rogan 59:09 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 59:09 ... I saw something about that. Um, but yeah, it's, it's one of those things where I think like s- it's like what I was saying before, like why I don't necessarily want people to say like, "Well, Zach is saying everyone should do exactly what he's doing."

Joe Rogan 59:22 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 59:22 And then, you know, they...

Joe Rogan 59:23 That's important to bring up, right?

Zach Bitter 59:24 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:24 Everybody's body is different, it really is.

Zach Bitter 59:26 For sure. I mean, to the point where like you have people like that... Like when I had m- like the issues I was having were incredibly minor compared to Jordan Peterson's daughter. Like the, like (laughs) I mean, she's in a spot where, you know, she had to make changes if she wanted to even just probably do daily activities.

Joe Rogan 59:43 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 59:44 Um, and you know, that's, th- that, that's I think the hard part for people to kind of understand, is like there, people are at different stages. There are some people... Like no one's breaking themselves overnight. So it's like this is something that's chipping away at people, and sometimes it chips away at them quicker in uh some people, and takes longer for others. Uh, so if you have an issue like that, it's like you almost have to go back to square one and say, "What are... G- give me a couple things that I know aren't gonna upset me, and let's start from there and see if we can start adding things back eventually maybe." Or, um, you know, the, we, uh... You know Shaun Baker you had on the podcast?

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 1:00:19 Um, we actually started recording some podcasts together. And, um, we are having this gal come on who's been a carnivore for eight years. And she was kind of in that situation where she had a whole bunch of goofy things going on, even with the keto protocol, and she eventually just cut everything out but meat and has been doing great ever since. And-

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 That's a vegan's nightmare.

Zach Bitter 1:00:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 Hearing things like that, it's like, "No."

Zach Bitter 1:00:40 Well, you know (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 But I just, I wish people could separate their ideology-

Zach Bitter 1:00:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:44 ... from the reality of certain people's bodies. And, and unfortunately, and this is very unfortunately, you gotta separate also all your, all the horrors that we associate with factory farming and all the other things-

Zach Bitter 1:00:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 ... that we associate with meat and meat consumption. Those things are real and terrible, and it absolutely should be avoided, and absolutely factory farming should be illegal.

Zach Bitter 1:01:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 I mean, I think it's one of the m- the great horrors of modern society. I really, really do. But take that away-

Zach Bitter 1:01:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:11 ... and, you know, some people don't think animals should die at all, but they don't live forever and other animals eat them, and it's just like, this is just a part of life.

Zach Bitter 1:01:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 Then you're into health and whether or not consuming meat is actually healthy. And there's no evidence that it's not.

Zach Bitter 1:01:26 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 There's none.

Zach Bitter 1:01:27 Yeah, you know, eh, the thing that like I want a vegan to sit me down and explain to me is that like when I look at bioavailability i-... um, of micronutrients, it's like, you can't find much better than liver. Like for-

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 No.

Zach Bitter 1:01:44 It's like the stuff is super available, like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 Well, that's why alpha wolves immediately go to the liver-

Zach Bitter 1:01:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 ... when they kill something.

Zach Bitter 1:01:49 Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, like, it, it... And it... So like, it's like, it... I need that exp-... Like, I don't know. I'm sure there's ranges of what people can do in terms of absorbing something like a, a non-heme iron versus a heme iron, but like, for me, it's i- it's like I'm go... If, if my iron levels were low, the first thing I'm going to... I'm doubling down on liver.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 1:02:09 I'm doubling down on liver and it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 As far as nutrients-

Zach Bitter 1:02:11 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 ... when you're just talking about just from a p- p- purely objective standpoint-

Zach Bitter 1:02:15 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 ... the consumption of nutrients, organ meats are some of the best.

Zach Bitter 1:02:18 Yeah, for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 Y- you're aware of Chris Kresser?

Zach Bitter 1:02:20 Mm-hmm, yep.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 Chris was a macrobiotic vegan and, you know, I mean, he was, like, fully hardcore.

Zach Bitter 1:02:26 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:26 And just was having all sorts of huge issues. His body just didn't react to it, and he fixed all that by eating organ meat-

Zach Bitter 1:02:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 ... and that's like his primary food source.

Zach Bitter 1:02:35 Yeah. Um, (smacks lips) what's the gal's name? There's a, a lady who... She... I can't remember what she had. Uh, I'm, I'm not gonna think of it, but if I do, I'll remember. But she did s- pretty much the same thing, where-

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 But some people are fine with a vegan diet too.

Zach Bitter 1:02:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 That's the other thing that's important to point out.

Zach Bitter 1:02:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 It might not be the best for them in terms of like bioavailabili-

Zach Bitter 1:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 ... bioavailability of nutrients, but it's certainly better than standard Western diet.

Zach Bitter 1:03:00 For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:03:00 Standard American diet, but-

Zach Bitter 1:03:01 Yeah. Well-

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 For some people, they can get by with it and not have any issues.

Zach Bitter 1:03:04 Well, and some people get away with even more. I mean, Courtney Dauwalter, wouldn't you-

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 Yes.

Zach Bitter 1:03:07 She's candy, right? Like (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 She's candy and drinks beer and eats nachos.

Zach Bitter 1:03:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 We took her to a bagel place. She fucking chowed down on bagels-

Zach Bitter 1:03:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 ... and cream cheese. She's a fucking animal, man.

Zach Bitter 1:03:17 I read an article about her not too long ago, and she said that she's got like candy jars sitting around the house.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 1:03:21 And she's like, "Before I go out for a run, I'll go anywhere from just like, you know, nibbling on it to a small stomach ache." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:29 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 1:03:29 So we're not operating from the same field, I guess, in that regard, but-

Joe Rogan 1:03:32 Well, she's a real freak, man, you know.

Zach Bitter 1:03:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Um, there's people that know her that just, they're stunned by her.

Zach Bitter 1:03:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 Because what's interesting about her is she's not a fast runner in, per se, like, like the way she would run a marathon.

Zach Bitter 1:03:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 She'd run a marathon in like three hours, you know?

Zach Bitter 1:03:47 So did she, he was... Did she talk about how she got into running when she was on here?

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 I believe she did. Do you remember specifically, Jamie? I don't know. I think she just sort of, like you, she ran in high school, I think, a little bit, but- Yeah. Well, she was, uh, teaching as well.

Zach Bitter 1:03:59 Okay, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 And while she was teaching, she was running-

Zach Bitter 1:04:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:02 ... and doing these things. And then eventually, she was able to get enough sponsors-

Zach Bitter 1:04:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 ... so that she could run full time, wh- which is what she does now. But with, with her, I think, and this is one of the reasons why I'm fascinated by you folks, with her, it's her mind. Her mind is just unbelievably powerful. When she was experiencing cornea edemas, right?

Zach Bitter 1:04:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 Her... She couldn't fucking see, man.

Zach Bitter 1:04:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 She was literally blind and she barely could see her feet, and she still won.

Zach Bitter 1:04:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 She fell, cracked her head