Joe Rogan Experience #1110 - Zach Bitter

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Five, four, three, two,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Five, four, three, two, one. (snaps fingers) Boom. And we're off. What's up, brother? How are you?

   2. ZBZach Bitter0:08

      Good, good. Thanks for having me on.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      My pleasure. Nice to meet you, man. You know, it's- it's funny that you just brought up Dr. Attia. You know, when we were- we were- you were saying that you download the podcast, you were saying-

   4. ZBZach Bitter0:18

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      ... "I gotta get that guy on."

   6. ZBZach Bitter0:20

      Yeah, yeah. It was funny. I, I was ... It auto-downloads, and that one popped up, and I remember thinking about a week before that. I was like, well, when I- when we first scheduled this one, I was like, "I gotta tell Joe about Dr. Attia." He was one of the kinda first guys I really followed when I kinda dove into kind of the high-fat approach to, to nutrition. So, um, yeah, he's a fascinating guy who's, who's a great listen. I had to listen to it, like, twice, so. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:41

      Yeah, he's a weird guy.

   8. ZBZach Bitter0:42

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:42

      He's one of those guys where you, you talk to him and you think, "Oh, this is like a normal, really nice guy." And then as he starts getting into the medical aspect of things, you go, "Oh, okay."

   10. ZBZach Bitter0:50

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       "You're a fucking super genius."

   12. ZBZach Bitter0:52

       Yeah, yeah. He's smart.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       He tricks you. (laughs)

   14. ZBZach Bitter0:54

       Yeah. I remember one of the first things he ever said that really kinda resonated with me was, I think someone was asking him about, like, what the effects are with a ketogenic diet in terms of, like, micronutrients and what maybe he'd be missing based on kinda like that normal profile of what you're supposed to get. And, and he was just like, "You know, it's, it's interesting 'cause most those studies and recommendations are based off of basically a standard American diet or a higher-carb diet." So he's like, "Well, you might just not need the same. We need to do more." And he's always looking to kind of push the envelope a bit, so cool guest for sure.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       Yeah, and, uh, you know, I'm fascinated by you, and I'm fascinated by anybody who does the kind of shit that you do.

   16. ZBZach Bitter1:35

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       I mean, uh, please explain to people all the different ultra-marathons you've done and, like, what you've accomplished.

   18. ZBZach Bitter1:44

       Yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting because, like, I still kinda see myself as a pretty average runner. Because, like, um, I mean, I competed in high school and made state cross-country and state track and that kind of thing, um, for a small school, and then I went to a small division three school and was, you know, pretty much, you know, average amongst a real good program at the D3 level. And, uh, I always just did kinda like running longer, though. So, um, like, once I got done with college, I kinda decided, "Well, let's, let's see what's longer than some of those traditional, like, collegiate races of like 5K to 10 kilometers." And, uh, you know, I started kinda just dabbling with that stuff, and then in, in 2010, I think, uh, I actually did my first ultra-marathon, you know, partly because I was just, like, looking around and there turned out to be one in the state. I was li- I was living in Wisconsin at the time, and, uh, there was one that, uh, was kind of in my neck of the woods, and I actually had just decided to go back to grad school, and that one had a $1000 prize purse on it. And I was like, "You know what? If I, if I can win that, 1000 bucks go a long way during grad school." (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:44

       (laughs)

   20. ZBZach Bitter2:45

       So I did that one, and I ended up winning it, and it, uh, it definitely hooked me. It was like the type of thing where I was like, "I wanna do more of these." And, um, by 2011, I kinda jumped all in at the end of the year and, and did three 50-milers in, I think it was about a, a nine-week timeframe.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:02

       (sighs)

   22. ZBZach Bitter3:02

       And, uh ... (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       That's so crazy.

   24. ZBZach Bitter3:05

       Yeah, and I mean-

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:05

       (clears throat)

   26. ZBZach Bitter3:05

       ... it gets crazier. There's, there's some freaks out there. Um, there's guys who will do, like, a couple in a weekend and stuff like that, so. (laughs) I mean, it- it never ends. Um, but yeah, you know, it was one of those things where after that, I was totally hooked. So, uh-

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:18

       What is it that got you hooked?

   28. ZBZach Bitter3:20

       Um, (sighs) you know, it, it had to be partly just a little bit of success, you know. I wasn't necessarily used to winning, so ... Like, I mean, I've- I had good races and good times relative to what you probably see, like, in an average person, but, you know, when I went to like a competitive 5K, competitive marathon or something like that, um, you know, I wasn't gonna win unless it was kind of a local race. So, kinda finding ... You know, it's like anything, I guess. You kinda gravitate to what you feel you're good at, and then that kinda piques your interest. Um, so that was part of it. The other part was just, uh, I really enjoyed doing the long run. Like, when you break up kind of like a training week, you have like a variety of different things. You've got like kind of, you know, base level runs, you've got specific workouts for the distance, and then most training programs, um, are gonna have a long run once a week, and that was the one that was always my favorite. So, wrapping my head around doing a bunch of those a week instead of just one was, was really kind of appealing to me, and when you're putting that much time into whatever you're training for, it's, I think, important to enjoy it. So being able to kinda enjoy the training process a lot was really appealing to me. Um, and, uh, and then it's just the variables. The- when you're out there for that long, there's so many variables to consider, and it's like, it's a blast for me to kinda like work through those, plan for those, and then adjust to them on the fly when you're out there and, you know, things inevitably go wrong or things pop up that you didn't expect. So it's, it's, uh, it's just, uh, it's- it's kinda hard to explain (laughs) , but it- it's, it's weird. One of the things in ultra-marathon running that people always say is like they'll have a race, and even if they have a bad race, say like, "I'm never doing one of these again." And then the next day, they're on a, on the internet looking for another race. So it's-

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:56

       (laughs)

   30. ZBZach Bitter4:56

       ... just this weird thing about it that you don't really know until you do it, but it, it sucks you in (laughs) .
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Now, y- what's different…

   1. ZBZach Bitter15:00

      so it's kinda like going through that, um, process of what you're gonna have to do on race day, so then when your big race comes up, you're like, "Okay, I've done this three or four times in the last six months, so I know what I'm doing."

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:10

      Now, y- what's different between you and a lotta guys, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about this, is that you, you are on a fat-burning diet. You're essentially ... you're on a ketogenic diet-

   3. ZBZach Bitter15:22

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      ... and running these races.

   5. ZBZach Bitter15:24

      Yeah. You know, it's, it's a little interesting because the way I kinda ... l- at least the way I came into it, like I explored the ketogenic diet mainly because I started noticing some things-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      Try to pull this thing up, like-

   7. ZBZach Bitter15:35

      Oh, sorry.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:35

      It's okay. No worries about it.

   9. ZBZach Bitter15:36

      Yeah, yeah. So I, I started, um, kind of exploring the ketogenic diet back in late 2011 because I started noticing some, some goofy things going on with my body from, from the, from the tr- high level of training and then, and then the racing. And, um, that was right around that same time I did those three 50-milers in, in nine weeks.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:53

       What'd you notice?

   11. ZBZach Bitter15:55

       Uh, y- I would wake up, like three or four times at night, and then, like I'd have to, like pee all the time at night. And I'd have, like swelling in my ankles and stuff. A lot of just, like huge energy swings throughout the day. Like I would ... You know, I was, I was a teacher at the time, so I remember thinking, like every day at like 1:00 or 2:00, I coulda laid down and take a nap on spot if I had, had the opportunity to. (laughs) So it was just like a lotta weird things that I thought was pretty n- abnormal for a th- 25-year-old male at the time. And, um, and so it was kinda becoming clear to me that what I was doing was either unsustainable or the way I was doing it was unsustainable. And, you know, I was really intrigued by the sport, and I didn't really wanna necessarily s- back off of that if I didn't have to. So that's when I kinda started to explore nutrition and diet and things like that. And, um, it, I, I was very much following what I woulda considered a healthy diet before that at the time. It was, it was high-carbohydrate, but it was like what you would, you know, think of as a healthy high-carbohydrate diet with like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       Like, what was a normal meal?

   13. ZBZach Bitter16:55

       Um, you know, I'd wake up, and I'd- it'd usually go for a run and then have, like some oatmeal, raisins, maybe some fruit or something like that. Some, some eggs or something with, with that in the morning.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       So not junk food, just high carbohydrates.

   15. ZBZach Bitter17:07

       No, it was clean. It was like clean, like you know, you know what you say, they say, like get your whole grains, fruits, vegetables.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:11

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ZBZach Bitter17:12

       That sort of thing. I definitely, you know, focused heavily on that and made sure I wasn't eating, like junk ch- junk food. I wasn't going through fast food restaurants or eating Oreos and Bon Bons and that sort of thing, (laughs) so-

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       Right.

   19. ZBZach Bitter17:22

       Um, so it was kinda interesting to me to think, like, "Okay, I, I didn't really realize that it was necessarily the nutritional side of things." Uh, like it wasn't, it wasn't like a big slap in the face in the sense that, "Oh, I just gotta cut out the junk," 'cause like y- according to most people, I wasn't eating junk. I was eating-

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:39

       Right.

   21. ZBZach Bitter17:39

       ... really good food. Um, so, you know, that's when I kinda got introduced to some folks like, uh, Dr. Volek and Dr. Phinny, who were kind of, I guess, I guess, they're pioneers of like the, this latest wave of kinda the high-fat approach. And, um, you know, they were ... uh, I started reading their books, listening to podcasts and things like that. And, and it, you know, it was interesting 'cause I, I was, I was training upwards of 20 hours a week at the time. And, you know, I started kinda thinking, like, "Uh, h- how much time am I gonna invest in, (laughs) in just running?" You know, "How can I kinda kill two birds with one stone?" And, and that's kinda when I discovered podcasts and thought, "S- this is sweet. I can learn something and train at the same time." Um, and so I just kinda like went all in on listening to a bunch of, you know, podcasts and stuff like that. And, um, actually one of your previous guests, uh, Ben Greenfield, was one of the first podcasts I really kinda did a deep dive into, and he was always kinda like-... uh, rolling out stuff that was, like, kinda new or cutting edge. So, like, um, he definitely had a lot of information there. And, um, I was for-

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:40

       Yeah, he's a maniac.

   23. ZBZach Bitter18:41

       Yeah. (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:42

       Don't take his advice on what he does with his dick.

   25. ZBZach Bitter18:44

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:45

       He's shooting stem cells into his dick and all that.

   27. ZBZach Bitter18:47

       Yeah, he's turning himself into a guinea pig. But-

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:49

       Yeah. He's, he's an odd duck. (laughs)

   29. ZBZach Bitter18:52

       (laughs) But yeah, he, he definitely had a lot of info from-

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:55

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Performance is important. …

   1. ZBZach Bitter30:00

      I'd find myself going back into ko- ketosis at the end of something like that sometimes. Um, but really, it was, to me, it wasn't necessarily a question of whether I was in ketosis or not, 'cause that really wasn't important to me. Um, like-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      Performance is important.

   3. ZBZach Bitter30:14

      Perfor- exactly, yeah. And what I wanted out of this approach was, um, I wanted to be able to rely on my body to, body to burn high levels of fat when I needed it to, but I also wanted to be metabolically flexible enough where if I needed to hit the gas pedal, I could do that as well. Um, and I think that's where people get a little, uh, uh, confused or up in arms or something because there's not a whole lot of studies that kinda y- uh, per- look at that specifically. Like, can you do that or can you not do that? Some people think it's kind of an all or nothing thing, where you either get really fat adapted or you get really carb-dependent, and then everything else is kinda like, you know, this gray area that you can't really get into. But-... that's not my experience. You know, my experience has been that, like, I can get... L- Look, h- here's my kind of litmus test. If I can go for, like, a four-hour or even five-hour run with no fuel other than water and electrolytes, then I'm fat-adapted enough. I don't need to get any more fat-adapted than that because I can eat during a race, and everyone else is going to be... So, like, I don't really need to get more fat-adapted after that from a p- performance standpoint. Um, so when I get to that point, then it's like, how many, how many carbohydrates can I bring back to kinda give me that extra nudge or that extra fuel substrate? Um. And-

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:28

      Have you ever tried mixing exogenous ketones with carbohydrates?

   5. ZBZach Bitter31:33

      Um, (sighs) not with carb-

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:35

      'Cause Greenfield was talking about that.

   7. ZBZach Bitter31:36

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:36

      And he said it's like doing steroids.

   9. ZBZach Bitter31:37

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:37

       He said it was incredible.

   11. ZBZach Bitter31:38

       Yeah, there's-

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:39

       But again, he's, he's a maniac.

   13. ZBZach Bitter31:40

       He is a maniac, yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:41

       Yeah.

   15. ZBZach Bitter31:41

       There's, uh... Who else was it? Was it Dominic D'Agostino was playing around with that stuff quite a bit, too? Or he might have helped, uh, he might have helped, uh, with the, the creation of some of that stuff. I know there was... Uh, I'd have to look back in my emails and stuff. But I, I actually had, uh... There was a guy who was doing a real clinical version of the exogenous ketones and, um, he had sent me one a while back to kinda do a little test for him. And, uh, it, it was like just this little canister of exogenous ketone and he wanted me to kinda check my ketones when I woke up in the morning, take that, test it 15 minutes later, and then test again after my run.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:18

       Was that like a ketone ester?

   17. ZBZach Bitter32:20

       Yeah, I think so.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       Like super potent stuff.

   19. ZBZach Bitter32:22

       Yup.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:22

       Tastes like Godzilla's dick.

   21. ZBZach Bitter32:23

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:24

       Yeah. Matt Brown brought some of that in, it's like, "Woo."

   23. ZBZach Bitter32:26

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       (clears throat)

   25. ZBZach Bitter32:27

       Did you test your ketones when you took it?

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:28

       No, I didn't. I didn't have a monitor on me. But it tasted, uh, terrible but I felt great-

   27. ZBZach Bitter32:32

       Yeah. (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:32

       ... after it was o-... You... And you have to take it with, uh, glucose.

   29. ZBZach Bitter32:35

       Yeah. Yeah, see, I think that's m- maybe that's where I messed up. But, uh, um, w- besides that, like my ketone levels shot up. I woke up that morning, I think I was at like 1.0 millimoles or something like that. I took that exogenous ketone, um, and 15 minutes later when I test I was at 3.7 millimoles.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:53

       Wow.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Really? …

   1. ZBZach Bitter45:00

      who ran ultras in, um, those Vibram FiveFingers. (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      Really?

   3. ZBZach Bitter45:03

      Yeah, yeah, and the trail stuff too, so, um, you know-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:07

      She must've been a beast.

   5. ZBZach Bitter45:08

      (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I-

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:09

      It's hard to run just a couple miles in those things.

   7. ZBZach Bitter45:11

      Yeah, and it's- a- you know, it- it's interesting because ... So Altra footwear made this shoe this last year called, uh, the- the Vanish, and it's essentially a minimalist shoe, um, just like a little bit of fabric on the top, super f- super hard flat base, and that's kinda what I like when I'm on a road or a track. Um, so I was wearing that-

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:29

      It's called the Vanish?

   9. ZBZach Bitter45:30

      The Vanish, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       Can you pull that up and see what that looks like?

   11. ZBZach Bitter45:32

       And it's, uh ... (laughs) So I- I went to this- this- this Altra race and I wore those thinking I'm gonna have the lightest shoe out of anyone here. Three guys show up running completely barefoot.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:41

       What? (laughs)

   13. ZBZach Bitter45:43

       (laughs) Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:43

       They ran an ultra-marathon barefoot?

   15. ZBZach Bitter45:45

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:45

       Dude, that's another level.

   17. ZBZach Bitter45:46

       Yeah. There was one, there was one guy who's-

   18. JRJoe Rogan45:48

       Jesus Christ.

   19. ZBZach Bitter45:49

       He's like a 222 or 223 marathoner, and he's barefoot and he said, like, the- right-

   20. JRJoe Rogan45:54

       He runs a marathon barefoot?

   21. ZBZach Bitter45:56

       So he doesn't do the marathon barefoot. He actually said that, uh, the-

   22. JRJoe Rogan45:59

       So that's a little bit of padding in that, it looks like, or at least th- there's a lip on the outside.

   23. ZBZach Bitter46:04

       Is that the Vanish or is that the s- is that the-

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:05

       It says Vanish logo.

   25. ZBZach Bitter46:06

       Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, there's- there's a little bit there is like a ... It's like a carbon fiber plate, and you see where that little cut is in there?

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       Mm-hmm. Right.

   27. ZBZach Bitter46:13

       There's like a carbon fiber plate in there that makes it a little more firm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:16

       I see.

   29. ZBZach Bitter46:16

       So what I'm looking for in a shoe when I'm looking for kind of like that natural feel is something that's got a firm mid-sole or a firm durometer because, like, I don't want to squish down into the shoe. I wanna pop right off the ground. Um, and I think, like, really, like that is ju- ... I mean, you've probably experienced this with the, with the Vibrams where like, um, if you spend the time, your foot- feet get stronger and stronger and stronger.

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:40

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:04:33

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. ZBZach Bitter1:00:00

      and takes longer for others. Uh, so if you have an issue like that, it's like you almost have to go back to square one and say, "What are... G- give me a couple things that I know aren't gonna upset me, and let's start from there and see if we can start adding things back eventually maybe." Or, um, you know, the, we, uh... You know Shaun Baker you had on the podcast?

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      Mm-hmm.

   3. ZBZach Bitter1:00:19

      Um, we actually started recording some podcasts together. And, um, we are having this gal come on who's been a carnivore for eight years. And she was kind of in that situation where she had a whole bunch of goofy things going on, even with the keto protocol, and she eventually just cut everything out but meat and has been doing great ever since. And-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

      That's a vegan's nightmare.

   5. ZBZach Bitter1:00:38

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:38

      Hearing things like that, it's like, "No."

   7. ZBZach Bitter1:00:40

      Well, you know (laughs) .

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

      But I just, I wish people could separate their ideology-

   9. ZBZach Bitter1:00:44

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:44

       ... from the reality of certain people's bodies. And, and unfortunately, and this is very unfortunately, you gotta separate also all your, all the horrors that we associate with factory farming and all the other things-

   11. ZBZach Bitter1:00:55

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:55

       ... that we associate with meat and meat consumption. Those things are real and terrible, and it absolutely should be avoided, and absolutely factory farming should be illegal.

   13. ZBZach Bitter1:01:04

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

       I mean, I think it's one of the m- the great horrors of modern society. I really, really do. But take that away-

   15. ZBZach Bitter1:01:11

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:11

       ... and, you know, some people don't think animals should die at all, but they don't live forever and other animals eat them, and it's just like, this is just a part of life.

   17. ZBZach Bitter1:01:18

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

       Then you're into health and whether or not consuming meat is actually healthy. And there's no evidence that it's not.

   19. ZBZach Bitter1:01:26

       Mm-mm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

       There's none.

   21. ZBZach Bitter1:01:27

       Yeah, you know, eh, the thing that like I want a vegan to sit me down and explain to me is that like when I look at bioavailability i-... um, of micronutrients, it's like, you can't find much better than liver. Like for-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:44

       No.

   23. ZBZach Bitter1:01:44

       It's like the stuff is super available, like-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       Well, that's why alpha wolves immediately go to the liver-

   25. ZBZach Bitter1:01:49

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:49

       ... when they kill something.

   27. ZBZach Bitter1:01:49

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, like, it, it... And it... So like, it's like, it... I need that exp-... Like, I don't know. I'm sure there's ranges of what people can do in terms of absorbing something like a, a non-heme iron versus a heme iron, but like, for me, it's i- it's like I'm go... If, if my iron levels were low, the first thing I'm going to... I'm doubling down on liver.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

       Yeah.

   29. ZBZach Bitter1:02:09

       I'm doubling down on liver and it's like-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:10

       As far as nutrients-

Episode duration: 1:27:58