Joe Rogan Experience #1115 - Mike Baker

1. 0:01 – 3:26

   Idaho wildlife talk: wolves, rattlesnakes, and Boise buzz

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Five, four, three, two, one. (claps hands) Mike Baker, ladies and gentlemen, and we're live.

   2. MBMike Baker0:08

      Ladies and gentlemen.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      What's going on, buddy?

   4. MBMike Baker0:10

      Yeah, the usual. Uh, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      You hiding from wolves over here? Is that why you're here?

   6. MBMike Baker0:13

      Uh, we- that's right, that's right. Uh, yeah, I- I left-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      (laughs)

   8. MBMike Baker0:15

      ... the state of Idaho because, because we're overrun with wolves. Wolves and-and, uh, and that's it. Yeah, that's all we got. Uh-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      Well, I was just listening to a podcast where these guys were talking about wolves and about how they were hiking and they found four dead, mature bull elk inside of, like, a, a couple mile stretch that had been torn apart by wolves, and they started to freak out. (laughs)

   10. MBMike Baker0:39

       (laughs) Well, I mean, I- I- w- uh, two things we got this time of year. We got a lotta wolves and we got a lot of rattlesnakes, and rattlesnakes are starting to, you know, pop up and make their appearances.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Is it getting a little warm?

   12. MBMike Baker0:46

       Yeah, exactly. And, um, there are some seasons where y- uh, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a, a, a rattlesnake.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       Really?

   14. MBMike Baker0:53

       And, of course, if you swing at that cat, a wolf will show up. (laughs) So-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       (laughs)

   16. MBMike Baker0:56

       ... that's not a good idea in case anybody's wondering. Uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       I've never been. I'm going June 30th to Boise. I just, uh, announced the tickets today and I-

   18. MBMike Baker1:03

       And it's fantastic.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       I'm, I'm excited to be there, but I've, I, I keep hearing about wolves. Is that a real issue up there or is people-

   20. MBMike Baker1:09

       Well, not at, not at-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       ... just exaggerating?

   22. MBMike Baker1:10

       ... not at the Century Link arena. It won't be a problem.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       (laughs)

   24. MBMike Baker1:13

       So, you should be safe from that. Um, but, uh, yeah, bring your gear and, you know, I- it's, it's, Idaho's an interesting place because (sighs) you know, it's a part-time legislature, right? So, which is the way I think all states should operate, um, a- which means everybody goes home to their jobs. Well, if you just, if you look at the top of the state, the governor, uh, Butch Otter, great guy. Brad Little, lieutenant governor, terrific guy. They're both ranchers, right? So-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       Full-time?

   26. MBMike Baker1:37

       Full-ti- well, yeah, basically. Um-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       Wow.

   28. MBMike Baker1:39

       ... and, uh, they, they look at it from a different problem, you know, a, a, a perspective, right? So-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Right.

   30. MBMike Baker1:45

       ... you know, here in California, you know, if you say you got a wolf problem, I mean, that, that raises, you know, one perspective and one issue and, and-
2. 3:26 – 3:55

   New studio tour and tech distractions: Apple Watch vs. simple gear

   1. MBMike Baker3:26

      A great space, by the way.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:27

      Thank you.

   3. MBMike Baker3:27

      Yeah. I haven't been here since you, you moved in.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:29

      I'll give you the full tour. I didn't give you the, the gym side. Did you go to the other side?

   5. MBMike Baker3:32

      I have not. Not yet, no, no.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:33

      Yeah. The o- the other side's where the gym is.

   7. MBMike Baker3:35

      The gym and the indoor pool. Yes.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:37

      You know, we got a lot of stuff here.

   9. MBMike Baker3:38

      Yeah. It's a great sp- uh, how m- how big is it? I mean, it looks like about 200,000 square feet.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:42

       No, it's 14.

   11. MBMike Baker3:43

       Okay.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:43

       14,000.

   13. MBMike Baker3:44

       All right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:44

       Pretty big.

   15. MBMike Baker3:44

       But compared to the last studio, it's-

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       It's a lot bigger.

   17. MBMike Baker3:46

       ... yeah. Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:47

       I got bored with that other place.

   19. MBMike Baker3:48

       Yeah. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:48

       It was too little.

   21. MBMike Baker3:49

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       We had to expand.

   23. MBMike Baker3:50

       Yeah. Well, you get your rollerblades out and you can go do laps or something. I don't know.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:54

       So, we got a lot of shit to talk about-

   25. MBMike Baker3:55

       We got some time, uh-

3. 3:55 – 10:07

   Iran nuclear deal fallout: why Mike says it was structurally inadequate

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:55

      ... Mike Baker. There's a lo- there's a lot going on in the world. What are you scared about?

   2. MBMike Baker4:00

      Uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:00

      What should I be scared about?

   4. MBMike Baker4:01

      Well, (sniffs) I mean, people are losing their minds right now over the past 24 hours because of Iran, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:06

      Right.

   6. MBMike Baker4:06

      And so what you're hearing is you're hearing a lot of the, um, the, uh, the critics of, of the current president, and apparently there are some, um, that are saying, "Oh, he's, you know, he's inching us closer to a military conflict with Iran."

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:18

      Correct.

   8. MBMike Baker4:18

      Well, these are the same brainiacs that, that said we- he was inching us closer to war with North Korea and they, everybody was completely wrong on that. Uh, I'm not saying that Rouhani and, and the others in the Iranian regime might not, you know, decide to become more bellicose, but, um, (sighs) I think they're, I think they're looking at it wrong. I mean, the, the, this idea that, um, 'cause there's a couple of parts. Part one is that they're saying, "Oh, look, it w- w- you know, he doesn't have a plan B." Implying that it's either this deal, which even our European allies say is inadequate, right? Uh, or it's a military conflict. And that's kinda what the previous president was, was all about. "We either get this deal or we're having a military conflict."

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:53

      Yeah.

   10. MBMike Baker4:53

       Well, no. There's a, there's, uh, other things in the works. There's other options in that, in that decision tree. Um, (sighs) and so, uh, I think that's, that's a false premise. And the other thing, when they talk about it over the past 24 hours anyway is, is that, "Well, look at this. This is gonna make it harder to get a deal with, with, uh, Kim Jong Un from North Korea s- 'cause he's gonna think that we don't, we don't, uh, support our deals." Well, I look at it a different way. I think that Kim Jong Un's gonna look at this and think, "Uh, okay, they're not gonna put up with an inadequate deal." Right? So, he's gonna look at it and say, "Well, yeah, that..." Because, uh, nobody disagrees with the Iranian deal. Uh, they wanna talk about, they wanna talk about how, "Look, the Iranians are complying with it." Well, the Iranians are complying with what they agreed to allow in the deal. Right? Which is none of their military sites. The number of times inspectors have, have actually gotten on and inspected a military site, including Parchin, the most important military facility in Iran, since that deal was signed in 2015 was zero. Haven't been there because the Iranians didn't agree to allow any of those sites in this deal. So, that's like, that's like saying-That's like saying if you're a serial killer, you'll allow the police to come in and search your home, but you can't go in the basement. Right? Uh, not that all serial killers put their bodies in the basement, but I, you know, I suspect that's the case. So anyway, that's, uh, it's an interesting thing, and I, I guess I wanted to throw that out there right off the bat because I think Iran right now is consuming so much of the oxygen for, for people out there.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:20

       So people thinking that the reason why we're backing out of the deal is because the president's being unreasonable and we're forcing what ... You're just saying it's a shit deal, period.

   12. MBMike Baker6:30

       Yeah, I mean, I think the idea that we, we have to stay in it because it's better than the alternative, when the alternative, uh, you know, being, uh, war, uh, is, is not framing it properly.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:41

       Right.

   14. MBMike Baker6:41

       I don't think that, that doesn't make any sense, uh, to me. But I think that the fact that the, the UK, the, the, the French, the Germans, uh, have all agreed publicly that it's an inadequate deal and needs to be fixed, that tells you something. But it also tells you that they have real strong financial incentives for continuing to do business in Iran. They, they, and as do Russia and China, frankly, the other signatories. So, and, you know, and also, the other, here's the other part. I mean, Trump, you know, what is it now? We're 16 or 17 months into Trump's administration. So it's not like he, he got into the White House and the next day he, you know, he, he canned the deal. He's been talking but nobody listens to anything. I'm not, I'm not a supporter of Trump necessarily. I mean, I want the government to work so it's not that I'm supporting Trump, I support the gov- I want the government to work, just like the previous administration. I wasn't a supporter of Obama but hey, I wanted it to work.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:28

       Right.

   16. MBMike Baker7:28

       I wanted good things to happen. And, you know, so he, you know, he went out there and, and there was some talk about, "Look, let's see if we can't find some way to get rid of the sunset clause, some way to, uh, rein in their ballistic missile development program." Um, some way, although it's not gonna happen, to rein in all the, the, uh, you know, the, the, the shenanigans, if you want to call it that, that they're engaged in in the Middle East. And, you know, that didn't happen. So I think he, he, you know, took a step that is not as godawful as his critics would like us to believe.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:02

       Well that, isn't that, that's a real problem, innit? Your phone's going off over there, little fella.

   18. MBMike Baker8:06

       Oh. Damn it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:08

       You gotta check your watch too.

   20. MBMike Baker8:09

       I guess-

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:09

       What a world we're living in.

   22. MBMike Baker8:10

       I know. Look, I got ... I know, this is good. It's, it's-

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:12

       Your phone, you gotta check your watch.

   24. MBMike Baker8:14

       My, my wife got me this, uh, this, this Apple Wi- uh, no. No (laughs) .

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:18

       Does it float?

   26. MBMike Baker8:19

       No, we're good. It, it does, it's waterproof-

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:20

       (laughs)

   28. MBMike Baker8:21

       I think up to a certain period of time, um, but it's, it, uh, it does all sorts of things. I don't have a clue what it does. She got it for me so I could, uh, check my heart, uh, rate and just, you know, for health reasons.

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:31

       Right.

   30. MBMike Baker8:31

       Just, you know, if I'm, if I'm out running or working out and she said, "Yeah, you should have something like that," 'cause I refused to wear a, a FitBit or whatever they're called. And-
4. 10:07 – 13:06

   Gina Haspel confirmation and the politics of interrogation-era debates

   1. MBMike Baker10:07

      I never questioned anything, which is an interesting point. I don't wanna, I don't wanna roam all over this place but, um, today was, uh, confirmation hearings for Gina Haspel.

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:17

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MBMike Baker10:18

      And I, I, I'll caveat this by saying I'm a big supporter of hers. I think she's an outstanding choice for this.

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:23

      And she's the new head of the CIA?

   5. MBMike Baker10:25

      New, right, the new director designate for the CIA, and so today she went up on Capitol Hill, uh, had, uh, open and, uh, then subsequently a closed door, uh, session with the, uh, the senators and (sighs) some of the senators, the reason I bring this up is 'cause a handful of the senators, um, were asking her and seemed focused on saying, "Well, how, you know, how with this rendition program, the rendition and interrogation program, how did you feel about it? What, you know, morally what, you know, did you have any quandaries? What, you know, we know that you, you, you, you, you know, the agency was doing what was allowed within the Department of Justice, um, because the Office of Legal Council was directing that from the Department of Justice for that program all those years ago and laws have subsequently changed." But at the time they didn't want to necessarily talk about that 'cause I don't think they wanted to highlight the fact that the DOJ had said this is, you know, what is able to be done. Um, so instead they focused on how did you feel? And I, I guess the reason I bring it up is 'cause when I was in the outfit, I'm not a deep thinker, right? So I never stood around and thought to myself, "How do I feel about this on any given moment?" Right? No matter what we were doing, it never occurred to me to sit there and, and question it. You know, as long as it, we knew what we were doing was proper and legal and was pursuit of, you know, tasking from, from, uh, uh, national security concerns, then yeah, and I don't think you want your military or your intel service, I don't think you want everybody out there at the pointy edge of the spear, you know, saying, "Well I'm gonna do things based on how I feel about it in the moment." Right? And it, it just seemed like a strange line of questioning.

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:59

      That is a strange line of questioning.

   7. MBMike Baker12:00

      Yeah. Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:01

      Who was responsible for that?

   9. MBMike Baker12:02

      Mm. Let me think. Uh, there were actually ... uh, there were, there were-

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:04

       Quite a few?

   11. MBMike Baker12:04

       ... three or four, yeah. Senator Reid and, and, uh ...

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:07

       So were they trying to-

   13. MBMike Baker12:09

       ... uh, all Democrats, obviously.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:10

       ... trying to understand ... Well, so what they did then was different than what is legal today, is that the case?

   15. MBMike Baker12:17

       Uh, yes, exactly. So the DOJ, um, in, uh ... after ... in the wake of 9/11, I mean, there's so much here. I mean, in the wake of 9/11 y- y- y- you think about the context. Most people have ... you know, young people don't even know what it f- feels like, right? I mean, they, you know, they've ... and, and other people have forgotten or they're just tired of it all and they don't want to think about it, and ... But in the wake of 9/11, there was a, um, there was a feeling, there was a sense, right, that it was gonna happen again. And there certainly was evidence and there was, there was a, a, a, a very large effort here to try to m- ensure that we protected American lives. Um, so the DOJ was issuing, uh, very clear guidance on what could and could not be done, uh, for the rendition and interrogation program. And that guidance was then, you know, provided to the general counsel at the agency. That was then, you know, disseminated to personnel out in the field.

5. 13:06 – 20:25

   How the CIA is organized and what Mike did in operations

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:06

      And tell, tell people b- so if they're just listening to this for the first time-

   2. MBMike Baker13:09

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:09

      ... what you used to do for the CIA, so they understand that you're coming from a position of ... you, you actually understand this stuff.

   4. MBMike Baker13:14

      No. Uh, I, I was a- a- in the operations directorate. So the, the agency is made up of essentially it's ... they change the name sometimes, but four directorates. So you have operations, you have intelligence, which is, uh, all the smart people, uh, reports or officers who had de- or sorry, the analysts. Um, you have science and technology, which is where they develop all the amazing gear that, that comes out of the agency, a lot of which then ends up in the commercial sector. Uh, so if anybody's walking around with a defibrillator, that battery technology came out of, uh, S&T research. Drones, uh, satellite technology, um, uh, the U-2 stealth program, U-2, you know, plane was, was developed out of and, and run out of the agency. So incredible things would come out of there. Uh, and then admin. But I was in the operations, uh, directorate and worked on everything from, uh, counternarcotics operations to, um, counterinsurgency operations and, and, and then obviously counterterrorism operations. So, um, I, I guess, I guess the point is that ... I mean, there's, there's something here I, I, I, I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but there's an interesting point that I think I've been pondering, which is that listening to the hearing today and listening to the way that the senators, the Democratic senators who were looking to kind of make this the key issue, um, there's, there's a, a sense of we're not putting it in context at the time and the, and, and the national mood. And that's a dangerous thing, because the laws were different than they are now. And they were different ... and what that means is that because in the wake of 9/11, and I don't want to say that, that values change, um, but I think that they do in the sense of what people are willing to, uh, to do, and whether you're talking about, okay, we're willing to have a rendition/interrogation program in the wake of 9/11. Now we're not, of course. And, um, so I, I think it's ... Anyway, I, I think there's a, there's a danger to that line of questioning where they kept talking about how, how did it ... how did you feel about it. And it's not y- y- you're, you're ... they're, they're mixing this, and I ... I'm not eloquent enough to explain it, but I found it fascinating that that was a question they wanted to focus on.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      I think there's a real danger to people or f- for people that don't have any experience in actual war and ... or really understand combat or really understand w- what can happen and what can go wrong in talking about it with the same sort of language that you would use to describe office politics.

   6. MBMike Baker15:41

      Yes. Yes. Uh, they got to see ... that's what I ... (laughs) dammit, that's what I was trying to say. Um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:45

      You know, like, how do you feel?

   8. MBMike Baker15:47

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:47

      How do you feel about this? We don't want a bad work environment. Should we torture?

   10. MBMike Baker15:50

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:51

       No, we, we want to save lives, but we don't want this guy to feel bad.

   12. MBMike Baker15:54

       We don't want him to feel bad and ... I mean, look, there was actually this, uh, this ... I ... some people were entertaining the idea that, you know, Khalid Sheik Mohammed would come out and, and, you know, talk, uh, to the senators, uh, you know, as, you know, going through this confirmation process about what? About his-

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Well, explain who he is.

   14. MBMike Baker16:09

       ... feelings. Well, Khalid Sheik Mohammed was the mastermind of 9/11.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:12

       And he, he actually requested to-

   16. MBMike Baker16:14

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       ... to talk a- about her.

   18. MBMike Baker16:16

       Right. And about, about his-

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:18

       Torture.

   20. MBMike Baker16:18

       I guess he just wanted to reflect on, you know, the whole ... the, the-

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       Yeah.

   22. MBMike Baker16:21

       ... you know, from his perspective.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       And isn't he still locked up?

   24. MBMike Baker16:24

       Yeah, he's still-

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       Is he still in Guantanamo Bay?

   26. MBMike Baker16:26

       Yeah. You know, God forbid he should rot in jail. But, um, you know, I think it's ... and it's kind of where we've ... it's sort of where we've come to. And I think in part, again, because there's distance, right? There's time.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       Yes.

   28. MBMike Baker16:36

       And so anyway, I, I ... she should ... again, she should be confirmed. Um, the, the whole rendition/interrogation program was reviewed ad nauseam, thousands of pages written. And interestingly enough, a lot of the people up there on the Hill right now in this confirmation process, the senators who are saying that they need to know more, are the same ones who were there before. So theoretically, either they didn't read all the material that was given to them about this or they've forgotten it, or they're, you know, th- or in reality this is more about Trump than it is about her.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       Mm.

   30. MBMike Baker17:06

       Which, you know, I'm ... I don't want to be shocking anyone by saying that perhaps there's political grandstanding going on. Uh-
6. 20:25 – 36:05

   Huawei and ZTE: China’s IP theft, cyber posture, and supply-chain risk

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:25

      I know, uh, what I really wanted to ask you about, 'cause we've been discussing this and I don't really understand it. Um, it was about Huawei, that, uh, Chinese company, electronics company.

   2. MBMike Baker20:35

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:36

      Um, they make these kickass phones and the State Department has said, "Please do not buy them."

   4. MBMike Baker20:42

      Yes. Yeah. Along with ZTE, another corporation.

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:45

      Yeah.

   6. MBMike Baker20:45

      Um, (clears throat) i- if you start from the premise that, that China is the number one perpetrator of economic espionage and theft of intellectual property, uh, and also, by the way, the number one perpetrator out there of cyber shenanigans. You know, uh, activity in cyberspace. Because they-

   7. JRJoe Rogan21:02

      It's so bad with the theft of inte- intellectual property, they have fake Apple Stores over in China-

   8. MBMike Baker21:09

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan21:09

      ... with all fake Apple stuff.

   10. MBMike Baker21:12

       Yes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan21:12

       Fake Apple laptops, fake Apple phones, everything fake. The labels look identical. None of it is actually Apple products.

   12. MBMike Baker21:20

       Right. And it all works, frankly, as well. (laughs) Does it? As ... Yeah. I mean, it's all good stuff. Um, you know, uh, I would say that, uh, um, it, yeah, it's astounding. And so, the, the, the reason why they're, they're raising the alarm with Huawei and, and, uh, ZTE is because of the voracious appetite of, um, the Chinese government and, um, their commercial sector for information. And, um, it's a little bit like, uh, shutting the door after the horse has headed down the hill, because w- we're late to the game. They've been doing this for years and years and years. They've been, o- oddly enough, you know, a lot of our military gear have parts in it manufactured in China, right? And so, you know, if, uh, we, we should have been raising the concern about this and talking with China and trying to come to terms with this issue years ago. I mean, we're getting, we're, we're, we're trying to have that conversation with them now. And up on Capitol Hill, you know, the, the Congress is trying to enact legislation, kind of like this Huawei thing. They're doing it in a clumsy fashion, but the overriding principle is correct, in that China made some decisions years ago that they were going to become a major power in the world, um, in a certain timeframe. And to do that, by definition, you got to compress your research and development time, right? And there's one way to do that, uh, essentially, and that's to steal information, to acquire information, if I want to be diplomatic about it. And, um, that's what they've done. Japan came out of World War II and their idea was, "We're gonna become a major power through manufacturing." And so they did. They built up their manufacturing base and created this, uh, this, this amazing, uh, result. China decided, "We're gonna skip the R&D for the most part," um, and all that that entails, the cost and time involved. And they've, th- they're very adept at it. They th- they throw an enormous amount of resource out there into hoovering up everything, not just from us, but from everybody, and using that, uh, to advance their goals. They have no firewall between their intel service and the PLA military intelligence and others, and their commercial sector. So, you know, not only are they there to protect national security, they're there to promote, uh, the commercial, uh, side of, of China. Um, and that's why it's so important. And so that's why they're, they're talking about Huawei, uh, because of the potential for them to, uh, use their, uh, their reach, uh, to further their desire for information, whatever it may be. They'll hoover it up and then decide whether it's useful or not. But they have the resource to do that, as opposed to, you know, a smaller country that maybe doesn't have the resource and is much more targeted and focused on their intel collection or their efforts to gather information. So, that's, that's sort of the, you know-That was a wordy explanation. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:10

       No, but it makes sense and it's, uh, it, when I read it, I read a bunch of tech articles where people were questioning whether or not it's even possible for Huawei to be using those phones to spy on people.

   14. MBMike Baker24:21

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:21

       But then there was some other articles where Huawei was being charged with, uh, what was it again that they were using? They were s- they were selling illegal technology to Iran? There were, there was something they were...

   16. MBMike Baker24:32

       They were breaking the sanctions, I think.

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:34

       Yeah. They were, they were s-

   18. MBMike Baker24:35

       No.

   19. JVJamie Vernon24:36

       No.

   20. MBMike Baker24:37

       (laughs) No, I'm saying I was shocked.

   21. JVJamie Vernon24:38

       No.

   22. MBMike Baker24:39

       That couldn't happen.

   23. JRJoe Rogan24:40

       Yeah. They were... But is-

   24. MBMike Baker24:42

       (laughs)

   25. JVJamie Vernon24:43

       Wow.

   26. JRJoe Rogan24:43

       What... So they were, they were selling things to Iran and this was, uh, a big part of it, that they were, uh, what the tech people were saying, they were incredulous. Here, Huawei under- (phone rings)

   27. MBMike Baker24:53

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan24:54

       Is that you again, you son of a bitch?

   29. MBMike Baker24:56

       God damn.

   30. JRJoe Rogan24:56

       Jesus Christ.
7. 36:05 – 47:39

   Biggest national security worry: fragile infrastructure and verification failures

   1. JRJoe Rogan36:05

      What are you most concerned with?

   2. MBMike Baker36:08

      (lips smacking) (sighs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan36:08

      If you look at all-

   4. MBMike Baker36:09

      Hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan36:09

      ... all the inter- international stuff that's going on.

   6. MBMike Baker36:13

      Yeah, it's a really good question. Um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan36:16

      Is there one thing that you don't think people are looking at?

   8. MBMike Baker36:19

      Well, I- I, you know, I give people, uh, uh, you know, a lot of credit. I think people are a lot more, um, engaged, uh, than sometimes I think the media gives them credit for. Uh, I mean, at least the conversations I have when people wanna talk about something other than Joe Rogan, um, I get the impression that they're paying attention to what's happening out there.

   9. JRJoe Rogan36:36

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MBMike Baker36:37

       Um, (sighs) you know, I, yeah, Iran, i- i- is it a big deal? Well, it is a big deal, but it's, it's a regional issue, um, and I think there is a, uh, a way we're going to get some success here. I think it actually is going to work out, um, to our benefit. Uh, I'm not buying the doomsayers who say it's- it's all heading to a conflict. So, I am not looking at that one, uh, you know, I, nothing really stands out. I guess if you said what's- what's the biggest concern from a security perspective to the, to the country, it would be the same thing it's been last year and the year before and for a number of years, which is the frailty of our infrastructure and its susceptibility to either cyberattack or physical attack. And that's, uh-

   11. JRJoe Rogan37:21

       So, like, the power grid.

   12. MBMike Baker37:22

       Power grid.

   13. JRJoe Rogan37:23

       The internet.

   14. MBMike Baker37:24

       Yeah, all of that, uh-

   15. JRJoe Rogan37:25

       There was some concern-

   16. MBMike Baker37:25

       ... banking system, water.

   17. JRJoe Rogan37:26

       ... with Russian submarines camped out over the internet lines in the ocean.

   18. MBMike Baker37:31

       (laughs) Yeah, I know, which sounds like a, a Cold War movie, right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan37:34

       Yeah.

   20. MBMike Baker37:34

       But it happens. I mean, the c- the Russians... I mean, look, the Russians never thought there was a peace dividend from the end of the Cold War. They never thought the Cold War ended. You know, and we- we- we all act surprised that Putin was engaged in meddling in the 2016 election. Of course he was. They've been doing that forever. So-

   21. JRJoe Rogan37:48

       And we have to them as well, right?

   22. MBMike Baker37:51

       Oh, I don't know about that. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan37:56

       (laughs)

   24. MBMike Baker37:56

       Well ...

   25. JRJoe Rogan37:56

       Wink wink, nudge, nudge.

   26. MBMike Baker37:58

       Yeah, maybe from a defensive point of view.

   27. JRJoe Rogan38:00

       Sure, we're just looking out for our own interests.

   28. MBMike Baker38:02

       Sure. Yes. Yeah. I mean, here's what I would say about that is, um, and again, e- everybody speaks from their own experience. People have their own, you know, perspective. My perspective is based on what I've seen, uh, in- in a lot of places around this planet. Uh, we better hope we do it and we better hope we do it well because it's a very aggressive world out there. And so when people kind of roll their eyes and go, "Oh, well," we do it as well, you know?

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:25

       Right.

   30. MBMike Baker38:25

       So we're kind of like- like dismissing the whole activity. I guess my point is, yeah, I get what you're saying, you know, okay, we, you know, I'm not saying it from a self-righteous point that the Chinese are very good at, you know, acquiring in- intellectual property or I'm not saying it from a self-righteous point that the Russians have been meddling in our elections. I'm just saying that's the way it is. You better hope we do it very, very well.
8. 47:39 – 50:32

   Russia’s 'old-school' playbook: assassination attempts and fear messaging

   1. JRJoe Rogan47:39

      I mean, you could drone on all you want about democratic elections, but we all know that's horseshit.

   2. MBMike Baker47:45

      (laughs) Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan47:46

      I mean, he fucking kills anybody over there that's a legitimate threat, kills anybody over there that's a journalist.

   4. MBMike Baker47:50

      Not just over there.

   5. JRJoe Rogan47:51

      Yeah.

   6. MBMike Baker47:51

      I mean, look, they tried to bag-

   7. JRJoe Rogan47:53

      They tried in England.

   8. MBMike Baker47:53

      ... Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

   9. JRJoe Rogan47:55

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MBMike Baker47:55

       She was, she was collateral damage, but, uh, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan47:57

       They put some shit on a doorknob-

   12. MBMike Baker47:58

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan47:59

       ... that they touched with their hands-

   14. MBMike Baker48:01

       A nerve agent.

   15. JRJoe Rogan48:01

       ... and that did them in and put them in the hospital. And who knows if-

   16. MBMike Baker48:04

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan48:04

       ... they're even gonna recover from that?

   18. MBMike Baker48:05

       I mean, think about it. She's out of the hospital now. She's doing good. He's doing a little bit better. Uh, but I mean, think about what that entails as an operation, right? Not that they haven't, they've been doing this since they killed, what's his name, Trotsky in Mexico, right? I mean, they, this is what they do. But, you know, Markov, uh, Litvinenko, Alexander Litvinenko, they killed him with polonium, uh, and that was just-

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:22

       Yeah.

   20. MBMike Baker48:22

       ... a handful of years ago. So they go after Sergei, he's living in a small, relatively small, quiet, you know, British town, Salisbury. And so that requires them to surveil Sergei. They got to get, you know, because you always have to do that. You got to do some operation like this, you got to know what you're getting into, you got to figure out how you're gonna do it. So there's a lot of... You got to front load all that work, right? And so they're doing all this surveillance, they're figuring out what their operational game plan is gonna be.... you know, this is in the UK, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan48:47

       Yeah.

   22. MBMike Baker48:47

       And the whole point of the exercise is to teach other people, don't, don't, you know, betray us.

   23. JRJoe Rogan48:52

       Right.

   24. MBMike Baker48:53

       And, and, uh, so, you know, then they, they put this on a doorknob. They didn't care who else touched that knob. It wasn't like they could, they could guarantee that, you know-

   25. JRJoe Rogan49:00

       Right.

   26. MBMike Baker49:00

       ... the postman and a variety of visitors weren't gonna come through the door. So, they really, they really don't care. Um, yeah. He is, um, he is definitely, he's a f- uh, he's an old school KGB, very easy cat to understand. You know, and we've always kinda acted like w- you know, we don't get it or somehow he's gonna change his stripes. He's never-

   27. JRJoe Rogan49:18

       Right.

   28. MBMike Baker49:18

       ... gonna change his stripes, and he's gonna always act in what he believes to be the best interest of what he would like to believe is the, still the former Soviet Union.

   29. JRJoe Rogan49:26

       Yeah.

   30. MBMike Baker49:26

       So-
9. 50:32 – 57:40

   China’s long game vs. U.S. election-cycle thinking

   1. MBMike Baker50:32

      Yeah. Yeah. And it, 'cause it- a- again, it, it's- we look at it from a different perspective. We look at it and go, like, "Agh, how can people with a straight face, you know, stand by while he gets a fourth term and is just, like, you know, president for life?"

   2. JRJoe Rogan50:44

      Right.

   3. MBMike Baker50:44

      Well, look over at China. Xi has spent the past few years locking that down, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan50:48

      Yeah.

   5. MBMike Baker50:49

      Building up the security apparatus, um, you know, kinda stepping on this idea that somehow there's a rule of law. Uh, he's now built back up this, this, this, uh, cult of personality that we haven't really seen since, you know, Deng Xiaoping or, or certainly Mao. And he's there for good. And so that gives them a strategic advantage, right? Because they can look at problems in the long haul, whereas here, we're looking at it in an election cycle. So when we've got a, a major issue to deal with with China, Xi's not looking at it and thinking, "Okay. Well, I gotta sort this out in the next short period of time." He's looking at it and thinking, "Trump's got maybe two years left."

   6. JRJoe Rogan51:24

      Right.

   7. MBMike Baker51:24

      Right? Maybe. Uh, maybe he gets reelected, maybe he doesn't. You know, I have no idea. But that's how he's, that's how he's processing this

   8. NANarrator51:31

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan51:31

      And there's gonna be a transitionary time in between the two candidates or the, the two presidents where things get real sloppy-

   10. MBMike Baker51:37

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan51:37

       ... and they might be able to slip in something.

   12. MBMike Baker51:39

       Right. Uh, I mean, and you talk about the- I mean, the Chinese really do play the long game.

   13. JRJoe Rogan51:43

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MBMike Baker51:43

       Right? They really play the long game. They'll, they'll put, uh, an asset here in the country to, uh, go to school, right? And they'll, their only job is to get excellent grades. And then they'll go to grad school and they'll get excellent grades, and then they'll go get a job somewhere. And it doesn't really matter necessarily where they get a job, but they'll get a job and then they'll get another job and eventually they are working at a Raytheon or they're working at Corning or they're working at some company that's got some relevance, um, from their perspective, in terms of what they do. And that's a 25, 30-year commitment, right? And they, and they, they do that all the time. And you know, we tend to look at things in the shorter timeframe (laughs) , right? I mean, even from an intel service.

   15. JRJoe Rogan52:23

       Yeah.

   16. MBMike Baker52:23

       You know? I mean, w- you know, we- our officers will get out there and they'll think, "Okay, we gotta make some recruitments, you know, and I got maybe two years here on the ground," if it's that sort of deployment or that sort of tour. And, uh, it's not that 30-year commitment.

   17. JRJoe Rogan52:37

       Right.

   18. MBMike Baker52:37

       Because if I'm the officer, I'm getting promoted based on how many recruitments I get.

   19. JRJoe Rogan52:42

       Yeah.

   20. MBMike Baker52:42

       I'm not getting necessarily promoted based on how well I handle assets that have already been promoted-

   21. JRJoe Rogan52:47

       And that was, uh-

   22. MBMike Baker52:47

       ... or recruited.

   23. JRJoe Rogan52:48

       ... the plot of that, uh, Young Ameri- what, The Americans show, right? The, the show-

   24. MBMike Baker52:53

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan52:53

       ... about Russian spies-

   26. MBMike Baker52:55

       Yep.

   27. JRJoe Rogan52:55

       ... that pretended to be just normal American citizens, moved in, did the whole thing, talked with a normal accent.

   28. MBMike Baker53:02

       Mm-hmm. That's right. That came out of, uh, that New Jersey incident-

   29. JRJoe Rogan53:04

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MBMike Baker53:04

       ... with Anna Chapman.
10. 57:40 – 1:02:02

    Election and media trench warfare: DNC, 2016 fatigue, and Biden speculation

    1. MBMike Baker57:40

       Yeah, no, I, I think that's true. I think there's, there's so little, and it's, uh, obviously much worse right now with the, with the current administration and President, uh, Trump. It just seems like nobody ... I mean, e- e- p- it's like World War I, right? Everybody's in their trenches throwing hand grenades at each other. Nobody's in the middle ground. Nobody's even trying to get up and go into the middle ground. And so, nobody's having those conversations, like you said, where they, they, they even make a, a lame attempt to try to understand what the other perspective might be.

    2. JRJoe Rogan58:06

       Yeah.

    3. MBMike Baker58:06

       Um, and in particular, it's exhausting in the sense that not everything that this administration, again, you know, the caveat being I didn't vote for Trump. Hey, I didn't vote for Clinton. Uh, you know, we got 300 and, what, 20 million people in this country? You think we coulda come up with two other candidates? (laughs)

    4. JRJoe Rogan58:23

       Yeah.

    5. MBMike Baker58:23

       But, uh-

    6. JRJoe Rogan58:24

       Who did you vote for?

    7. MBMike Baker58:25

       Uh, you know what? I, I, this sounds really lame, but I just sat it out. I, I couldn't get myself to go vote for ... I just thought ... I mean, I was gonna vote for Ronald Reagan's ashes or something, but I, you know, I, I figured I'd be the only person. So, um, I didn't, I didn't vote. I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how we got to that point.

    8. JRJoe Rogan58:46

       Mm.

    9. MBMike Baker58:46

       Um, and yeah. The one person who should really be pissed off was Bernie Sanders. I mean, the only collusion we've really proven up to this point- (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan58:53

        Yeah.

    11. MBMike Baker58:53

        ... is the DNC colluding to keep Bernie down.

    12. JRJoe Rogan58:55

        And people sweep that under the rug so quick. It's so adorable.

    13. MBMike Baker58:59

        (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan59:00

        It's adorable how people just make it like that's not a big deal, but-

    15. MBMike Baker59:04

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan59:05

        ... the deleting of 30,000 emails, not a big deal.

    17. MBMike Baker59:08

        Not an issue.

    18. JRJoe Rogan59:09

        The collusion with the DNC to rig the primaries, not a big deal.

    19. MBMike Baker59:14

        Yeah, and Bernie, God bless him, he played the good soldier and, you know, fell on his sword and hasn't-

    20. JRJoe Rogan59:18

        He did.

    21. MBMike Baker59:18

        ... really m- well, he hasn't made much of an issue of it. He's, you know-

    22. JRJoe Rogan59:20

        I think it's because he has aspirations to move forward, and he knows they owe him one now. And he knows that Hillary Clinton is essentially done.

    23. MBMike Baker59:26

        That's interesting. Well, yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan59:28

        Like, if they try to bring her back in 2020-

    25. MBMike Baker59:30

        (laughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan59:30

        ... people will go fucking crazy. Like, "Are you nuts?"

    27. MBMike Baker59:34

        (laughs) Could you imagine? She might ha- actually be thinking that way.

    28. JRJoe Rogan59:37

        Oh, I'm sure she is.

    29. MBMike Baker59:37

        But yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan59:38

        They probably got, uh, her on a vitamin IV drip right now-
11. 1:02:02 – 1:22:27

    North Korea thaw: prisoner release, summit optics, and the role of sanctions

    1. MBMike Baker1:02:02

       And yet, because of the self-inflicted wounds that they constantly have coming out of that White House, because of his tweeting for the most part, uh, people aren't focusing on, you know, the fact... Look, we should all be able to agree. Democrats and Republicans should be able to agree that y- if you can get your way to peace on the, the Korean peninsula, that's pretty damn good.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:02:20

       Yes.

    3. MBMike Baker1:02:20

       Right? Um, they just released the, uh, three North Korean, uh, prisoners. Uh, well, American, uh, citizen prisoners who were held in North Korea. So Secretary Pompeo is flying back right now from Pyongyang, right? And he's bringing those three back. That's a good thing.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:02:35

       That's a very good thing.

    5. MBMike Baker1:02:36

       Right? But we can't-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:02:37

       But it's the way-

    7. MBMike Baker1:02:37

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:02:37

       ... they got there that freaks people out.

    9. MBMike Baker1:02:39

       Right.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:02:39

        Him saying his nuclear button's bigger than the other guys.

    11. MBMike Baker1:02:42

        (laughs)

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:42

        And it's like... But I gotta tell you, I was really happy watching the video of, uh, Kim Jong Un shaking hands with the president of South Korea at the meeting in the DMZ.

    13. MBMike Baker1:02:54

        Right.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:54

        I was happy.

    15. MBMike Baker1:02:55

        Right.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

        That, that to me was like, wow. Like, that made me think this might... They're both smiling. I know Kim Jong Un's a fucking murderer and he killed his own uncle.

    17. MBMike Baker1:03:04

        Yeah, absolutely.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:03:04

        And then his nephews-

    19. MBMike Baker1:03:05

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:03:05

        ... and all these different people that he thought might go against him. But seeing him shake hands with the president of South Korea made me think like, "Wow, they might settle this." Like, they-

    21. MBMike Baker1:03:16

        They, they, they could. I mean, look, that's the very first time, uh, his granddad, uh, uh, Kim Il Sung, and then his dad, uh, Kim Jong Il, um, neither of them ever stepped foot on the southern side of that DMZ, on the southern side of, of, of Peace Village. Never happened. So that in itself, you're absolutely right, was... That's, that's a major development. Now maybe nothing comes of it, right? It's a low percentage shot. You have to agree, there's so many moving parts. So maybe nothing comes of it. And the, I think the administration is, is making that case saying, "Look, we have to be realistic." But, you know, this is a good thing that it's moving in that direction.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:03:49

        Yeah, it's something.

    23. MBMike Baker1:03:50

        Right, it's something. And-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:51

        And the fact that this guy's a young guy who actually likes Dennis Rodman.

    25. MBMike Baker1:03:55

        (laughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:03:55

        I mean, Jesus Christ, I mean, who kn-

    27. MBMike Baker1:03:57

        Well, in his playing days-

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:58

        Yeah.

    29. MBMike Baker1:03:58

        ... I liked Dennis Rodman a lot, right? I just didn't anticipate-

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:04:01

        He likes him now.

Episode duration: 2:45:24