EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,406 words- 0:02 – 0:54
Why Pollan Writing About Psychedelics Lands at the Perfect Cultural Moment
- JRJoe Rogan
That quickly? Two? One? Boom, and we're live. Mr. Pollan, how are you?
- MPMichael Pollan
Hey, good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Poor sucker.
- MPMichael Pollan
Good to be here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Put the fist away. There you go.
- MPMichael Pollan
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's happening, man? How are you?
- MPMichael Pollan
Uh, good. Good to be in LA.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, good to have you here.
- MPMichael Pollan
Thanks.
- JRJoe Rogan
I've been a fan of your work for a long time, man, and I got really excited when I found out that you were writing a book on psychedelics. And, uh, um, I'm just, uh, I think it's a, an amazing subject, and I'm, I'm glad someone who's respected like yourself-
- MPMichael Pollan
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... is getting it. It's a q- crackpot subject, right? It's one of those subjects where like, "Oh, no, Michael Pollan found drugs."
- MPMichael Pollan
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, "What's he doing?" (laughs) "He's having a crisis."
- MPMichael Pollan
You know-
- JRJoe Rogan
"He's out there doing mushrooms."
- MPMichael Pollan
... it was a bit re- it is a bit of a departure, I think, that there are people who were expecting another book on food or agriculture.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
And, uh, were a little surprised. Um, but so far, people have been following me, you know, uh, who cared about food and ag, and they're, there's more overlap than I ever would've guessed.
- 0:54 – 3:12
The Trip Treatment: Psilocybin for Cancer Anxiety and Fear of Death
- JRJoe Rogan
I think you caught the perfect wave. I think your book is coming out right when John Hopkins Research Center-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is starting to put out these, uh, studies on it. People are starting to recognize that MDMA has amazing results for post-traumatic stress disorder from veterans, and marijuana is becoming legal in more and more states. It's like you're catching this wave.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, and I didn't know that. I, you know, you never know where the culture's gonna be 'cause you start a book years before. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
How long, uh, did you start it?
- MPMichael Pollan
Well, I started the research in, uh, 2014. I wrote a piece for The New Yorker called The Trip Treatment, uh, which is online, um, and it was, um, my first foray into this work. I went down to Hopkins and spent a lot of time at NYU, and at the time, they were doing this really interesting trial where they were giving psilocybin to people with cancer diagnoses, many of whom were terminal. And that seemed like such a weird idea to me that I, I was curious to explore it, and I spent a lot of time talking to patients, many of whom were dying, uh, about how this single psyl- high-dose psilocybin experience, a guided psilocybin experience, and we should talk a little bit about how the guided changes things for, you know, it's not ... The, the image people have is popping some mushrooms in your mouth and maybe going to a concert or going to the beach, but this is a very d- controlled internal experience. Uh, completely reset these people's attitude toward death, and, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... allowed them to die with equanimity, and, um, uh, and when these results were published, um, just last year, they found that, um, that th- in 80% of the people who had the session, uh, they had statistically significant reductions in standard measures of depression and anxiety. It was one of the most effective psychiatric interventions that these psychiatrists had ever seen, uh, which is amazing, a single experience, and that a molecule could change the contents of your head to the, to the extent that you would rethink your mortality. Uh, and so as I began talking to these people and hearing their stories, w- many of which were just remarkable, I realized, you know, this is not just an article. There's a book here, and there's so much, uh, you know ... There are two kinds of articles you write as a journalist. One is you f- you, you're sick of the topic by the time you finish and you can't wait to be done, and the other is, "God, I just scratched the surface," and this was one of those.
- 3:12 – 5:19
Pollan’s Psychedelic Inexperience, Cultural Scare Stories, and Real Risk
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you have any experiences personally with psychedelics before you wrote this book?
- MPMichael Pollan
Very limited. Um, I, for some peculiar reason, never did psychedelics in college. They just weren't around. I went to the-
- JRJoe Rogan
They weren't around?
- MPMichael Pollan
No, I went to the wrong school.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Which school did you go to?
- MPMichael Pollan
Uh ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
And I, it was like-
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat)
- MPMichael Pollan
... a very kind of progressive, hippie school. I went to Bennington College in Vermont.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- MPMichael Pollan
And there were, there was LSD there before me and there was LSD after me-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
... but I was in this little wrinkle in time where there was only alcohol. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I need a cup. There you go. Thanks, Jamie.
- MPMichael Pollan
So, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy, only alcohol in college.
- MPMichael Pollan
And I had n- so I had no experience with psychedelics, uh, until I was in my late 20s, and then it was, um, pretty mild. I had a couple mushroom experiences that would, I now describe as aesthetic experiences, right? Ones wh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Small doses, one gram-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, they were-
- JRJoe Rogan
... or something like that?
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, I d- I never even measured. It was probably one gram. Um, so I'd never had a big trip, and, um, and there was another reason. I was, I, I didn't feel psychologically sturdy enough.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- MPMichael Pollan
And I came of age just when the, the, the scare stories about psychedelics were everywhere in the culture, you know? They would scramble your chromosomes. You'd stare at the sun till you went blind. Um, you know, the person who, that took all the orange sunshine and thought he was an orange for the rest of his life. You know, these stories were out there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
And I was afraid to. I was just afraid.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, that's, it's, it's not an unfounded fear.
- MPMichael Pollan
Oh, no. Um, no, people can really get into psychological trouble. I think it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... really important that people understand that, uh, it's a, it's a profound, powerful, destabilizing experience. And depending on your mindset and your, and the situation in which you take it, set and setting, it can be, um, ecstatic or horrific. And, um, and, you know, there are many people who had a series of very good trips and then they have that one bad trip.
- 5:19 – 9:45
Set, Setting, and the Case for Psychedelic Clinics and Trained Guides
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a great tragedy, in m- in my opinion, that our culture has demonized these substances and put them in this category of forbidden fruit to the point where you, y- you're, you're so nervous about doing them. You have to get them from some shady character. You have to-
- MPMichael Pollan
And you don't know what you're getting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you have to do them in the, you know, in secrecy. You have to be-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... really careful. But we also, at the same time, are aware of all these incredibly positive benefits from them.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that if we just had professional places where we could go to, I mean, we have these rehab facilities that are available for people trying to kick opiates and people-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... trying to get their life together, but if we had something similar, like a psychedelic facility with registered professionals who understand this and who could evaluate you psychologically, understand if you're perhaps taking medication that would adversely affect your trip.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Try to find out who you are, like where, what state you're at in your life. Have you had any experiences before? Maybe we should put you on a low-dose THC-
- MPMichael Pollan
Right, let's-
- JRJoe Rogan
... edible-
- MPMichael Pollan
... let's ramp it up, uh, slowly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's, yeah. Let's try something small-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and see how you react to it.And then I think... I don't think people, uh, like myself or s- pot smokers, or people who have done psychedelics, I don't think we do it any favors either, because we're always trying to pretend that there is no adverse effects. And that there's like... You know, people, when they get into something, they want everybody to do it, and I've been guilty of this myself. They push it.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, people tend... There's a, there's a occupational hazard of, uh, of irrational exuberance when-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MPMichael Pollan
You know, this is what happened to Timothy Leary, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yes.
- MPMichael Pollan
I mean, people s- they... People have an amazing experience and the first thing they think is, "Everybody's gotta do this."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
But it isn't for everybody. And I think you're absolutely right. I think that... Look, there are risks, but these are not drugs of abuse.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
They're non-addictive. They're anti-addictive. The first thought after having a big psychedelic trip is not, "When can I do this again?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
Uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
It's, "Whoa."
- MPMichael Pollan
It's, "Whoa." Yeah.
- 9:45 – 12:19
Safety Profile: Non-Addictive Classic Psychedelics, Toxicity Myths, and Rat Park
- MPMichael Pollan
Uh, it's like having a nightmare and, you know, analyzing it with your shrink. It actually may be very productive. Um, so, so, you know, I, I was kind of a Nervous Nelly going into this and I really looked at the whole risk profile. And on the, on the physiological side, your body, the risks are remarkably low, and I'm speaking here of the classic psychedelics. I'm not talking about MDMA or even pot. I'm really, I'm talking about LSD, psilocybin, which is magic mushrooms, um, DMT, mescaline. Um, they are much less toxic than many of the over-the-counter drugs you have in your medicine cabinet. There is no lethal dose, which is remarkable.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Um, there was one elephant that was killed with LSD once.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
Uh, they wanted to see what it would take and, and it was this... They gave it a massive dose, but to get it to the point where they could administer it, they had to give it a massive dose of tranquilizer. So it isn't actually clear that the LSD killed it. It may have been the, the benzos or whatever they were giving it.
- JRJoe Rogan
(inhales deeply)
- MPMichael Pollan
I know, what a horrible thing, right? Go online and look up-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why?
- MPMichael Pollan
... uh, the elephant who died from LSD.
- JRJoe Rogan
What a crazy idea.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah. Uh, animal cruelty.
- JRJoe Rogan
I wonder what was going through the elephant's mind before it died.
- MPMichael Pollan
Well, animals don't like psychedelics that much. Um, we know that if you... You know that classic setup that drug abuse researchers use where they, they put a rat in a cage and they... And there's a lever, and they can administer cocaine or heroin?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Uh, or they can have lunch?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
And they'll press the cocaine lever till they die.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
You put LSD in that setup, they press it once and never again.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Well, th- that setup is always screwy, right? Because they, they really shouldn't be in that situation. It's not a natural setup. Like, that's been criticized.
- MPMichael Pollan
That's right. And they're, uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean-
- MPMichael Pollan
They... Somebody in Vancouver did these really cool rat park experiments.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MPMichael Pollan
That's what you're referencing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MPMichael Pollan
And, um, basically they thought that this was inevitably what happens. But in fact, if you give a rat a beautiful cage with some things to play with, some other rats to hang out with-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 12:19 – 13:30
Going First-Person: Pollan’s Underground Guided Sessions and Vetting Practitioners
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, when you were researching this book, um, did you... Did you start doing your own personal experimentation?
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, um, I had a series of trips for the book. Um, I had become... For a couple reasons, I had become very curious about the people I was interviewing, trying to make sense of how they could have these transformative...... trips on a drug, which seemed implausible to me. Um, and, uh, I also kinda got jealous of the experiences they were having. They were having these big spiritual experiences and I swear, I don't think I've ever had a spiritual experience. I'm kinda spiritually retarded, actually-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
... or was. And, um, so I, I realized at a certain point, I had to see the experience from inside to describe it in a book. It's also kinda my brand as a writer. When I wrote about the cattle industry, I bought a steer. When I wrote about architecture, I built a house. I, I like to get my hands dirty and, and see things from inside.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- MPMichael Pollan
There's a quality of wonder you can capture doing something for the first time. So in a way, the fact that I was psychedelically naive, I saw as a positive, 'cause people who've, who really know the territory are not gonna have quite the same first experience-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 13:30 – 19:11
Mushroom Hunting with Paul Stamets and a First Big Nature-Centered Psilocybin Experience
- MPMichael Pollan
... that I was gonna have, so that was really helpful. So I, um, I did a few things. I, I went, um, mushroom hunting with Paul Stamets who ... Have, have you ... Has he been on this show?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He has. I love that guy.
- MPMichael Pollan
I saw you had his books out there. Yeah, he's a very cool guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's crazy. (laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
He's totally crazy, and he took me to a spot where you can find, um, the strongest psilocybin known to man. That he-
- JRJoe Rogan
In the Pacific Northwest?
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
It's near the mouth of the Columbia River. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ooh.
- MPMichael Pollan
I can't be more specific than that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't. (laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
(laughs) Pe- you know people with their mushroom spots.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
So, uh, we went hunting. It was like this, you know, uh, forlorn December weather, and, uh, he took me to this place and, uh, we spent a couple of days outside looking for these mushrooms, and we found, uh, uh, Psilocybe azurescens, which he, he found for the first time and named after his son, Azurious.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- MPMichael Pollan
Who in turn, is named after the color of mushrooms when they're bruised, azure. (laughs) So this kind of an interesting-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a dude who's committed to fungus.
- MPMichael Pollan
He is ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) He's all in.
- MPMichael Pollan
He is all in with fungus.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
And I was very excited when we found a couple, and they're hard. I mean, I would not recommend do, do it yourself with psilocybin.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Just because it's not like looking for chanterelles or morels.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
There are mushrooms that look exactly like psilocybin that can give you a, a just, an agonizing death.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
But when you're with Paul Stamets, you feel pretty confident.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 19:11 – 23:25
Plants ‘Looking Back’: Co-Evolution, Plant Senses, and Expanded Subjectivity
- JRJoe Rogan
Now w- I would like to take you back to the, the garden thing, when you were-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... having these experience with, uh, these plants. I had a, a experience once on a v- very high dose of marijuana edibles, I went into a grow room that, uh, this, um, local dispensary had set up. It's this big room filled with plants and it was the first time a- like, when I walked in, this is the first time I've ever been around pot plants where I felt like they were aware that I was there.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was very strange. It, you, you had this weird feeling of them having much more sensitivity than you imagined, that they, they're aware of you, but as you said, they're benign and they're just sorta sitting there, but it was almost like they were saying hello to me.
- MPMichael Pollan
Uh-huh. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Like they recognized that I could tune into them because I was so barbecued that I was-
- MPMichael Pollan
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... I was on their wavelength. When you're out there with those plants and you said that you felt consciousness from them, now as an intelligent, rational person, did you start pondering whether or not you were just perceiving this-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... because it was convenient and you were hallucinating and a- adding all this contextual-
- MPMichael Pollan
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... weirdness to this situation?
- MPMichael Pollan
I, you know, I'm sure I was projecting things onto them-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MPMichael Pollan
... but, but I've looked at this question and the science of it pretty closely.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
And how you define consciousness, it matters here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MPMichael Pollan
But plants are conscious in the sense of they're aware of their environment, they have senses. They're not like our senses.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
But they're picking up on chemicals in the air and in the soil and light in very specific ways, and they're reacting, not just instinctually, but appropriately. There are experiments that show that plants can learn in some primitive way. So we have to understand that we have one kind of consciousness and other animals and even plants have another kind of consciousness. So it's real. It's a real thing. The idea that they're looking back at me, I'm being metaphorical, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
... that I, uh, that they're aware of me, um, in the way that the, um, plant is aware that the bee is nearby and does certain things, sometimes to trap the bee and hold it there for a longer amount of time to, to, you know, load it up with pollen. Um, there are... (sighs) The world as we perceive it is dependent on the particular x- senses we have. We've got the big five senses that you always hear about, and there are some other littler ones. Um, you know, how we locate ourself in space, we're pretty good at that too. Um, but other creatures have a different set of senses, and, and therefore they live in a different world. So the bee, for example, uh, can see ultraviolet light we can't see. So if you could get inside a bee's head, the world would look very different, and you'd see patterns like landing, uh, markings on flowers in ultraviolet colors that they can see that you, you've never seen before. Ditto, they also can experience electromagnetic radiation. We can't. You know, it's all around us, but we don't feel it. They feel it. And the reason they do is a plant that, uh, has a strong electromagnetic field hasn't been visited recently by another bee, so they know this is a good, you're gonna get a lot of nectar here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- MPMichael Pollan
And, um, whereas if you, if you're going by a, you know, you're flying by a flower and it's got a soft feel, it doesn't have a big field, it's probably just been visited by someone else, so skip it. So they're living in a world where they're perceiving cellphone radiation and all, all the kinds of crap we're putting into the electromagnetic spectrum. Um, so, so we have to realize that this is a very specific world that we're perceiving in our normal consciousness that is the one that we need to perceive that's good for us, that's, we, we're designed for, reflecting our bodies and our upright stance, everything about us. But other creatures are seeing a different world. And one of the interesting things about psychedelics is you get some insight into that. You, you sort of feel it. And, uh, it's, it's real, I think, in the sense of sure you're imagining, you, there's still a leap of imagination to understand bee world or octopus world.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
That's a really weird world.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Their brains are distributed over eight arms, right? And-
- 23:25 – 26:24
Other Minds and Other Worlds: Bees, Octopuses, and Sensing Reality Differently
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you seen that recent, uh, paper that was just put out? See if you can find it. Uh, the, where they're, they're hypothesizing that octopus, they might have come here from another planet, literally.
- MPMichael Pollan
Did not see that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Might have been seeded by another planet. It's very controversial, but it's from legit scientists. And what they're trying to think of is i- if it's possible that the eggs of these things traveled in comets and somehow they came here hundreds of millions of years ago. And the reason being is that they can alter their RNA and that this is very specific to, uh, octopi or octopuses. Yeah, here it is. "Octopuses came to Earth from space as (laughs) frozen eggs millions of years ago."
- MPMichael Pollan
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't know if they would put it that way, but it's, it's just a theory, but it's a theory that's being bandied about by legitimate scientists.
- MPMichael Pollan
That's fascinating. That's crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because they can do so many things that no other animal could do, like-
- MPMichael Pollan
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... instantaneously change their outside.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yes, to, uh, to blend into their area.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, like m-
- MPMichael Pollan
Also each arm can make-
- JRJoe Rogan
And their texture.
- MPMichael Pollan
... its own decisions, uh, without referring to headquarters. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, they have this distributed intelligence.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. And regenerate as well.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yes. No, they are, they're really, they're really crazy. Um, so this idea that there's something relative about our everyday normal consciousness, that there are other ways to experience the world, is something that psychedelics put you in touch with.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
I was just reading this interview with this physicist named, uh, Carlo Rovelli. He's a theoretical physicist from Italy. He wrote this book a couple years ago called Seven Brief Lessons on Physics, very prominent guy. And he was telling this interviewer in The Guardian that-... he got turned onto physics, uh, during an LSD trip he had when he was 15. And the interviewer asked him how, why was that, and he said, "Well, I, I saw for the first time that there could be another way to think about time, in- instead of, uh, you know, past, present and future, that it might all be simultaneous." And that's how it, it appeared to him during this LSD trip. And he s- and when he c- when he was back to baseline, he said, um, "Uh, you know, I was asking myself, why am I so sure this is the real world and that wasn't the real world, and it was just an hallucination?" And he said, "The world as it presents itself to us right now, here, actually physics tells us is not the real world." That there, you know, that space and time are curved, that particles don't exist until they're perceived by a consciousness. You know, all these crazy ideas of theoretical physics. He said, "I, it suddenly seemed like worth exploring, that, that the world as it presents itself to us is not the only world, and, or, or necessarily the accurate world." And I was very interested that a scientist could develop that idea of a beyond in the way you would think of a religious person developing the idea of a beyond.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MPMichael Pollan
That there's a scientific beyond and there's a religious beyond.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
And psychedelics at least gives us a, a hint that, that those worlds exist. And that was, um, that was a very powerful, powerful idea for me.
- 26:24 – 35:56
Psychedelics and the Origins of Religion: Mysteries, Kykeon, and Ergot Theories
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you looked into any of the-
- MPMichael Pollan
(coughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... uh, connections between ancient religions and psychedelics, like, uh, any of the John Marco Allegro stuff?
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, I did. I didn't go that deep into it. I went in deep enough to know that there are a lot of very serious scholars, um, and, and he, Allegro is one and Carl Ruck is another, um, and Gordon Wasson, the guy who kinda brought psilocybin to the west, who I write about at some length in the book, really believed that it was, uh, experience of psychedelics, which has been in culture for thousands of years, um, uh, we know, um, whether you're talking about the Amazon or Africa or... And that these, uh, experiences may have nurtured the religious impulse. You know, where do you get the idea of a, of a beyond? Where do you get the idea of a heaven or a hell if not from some altered state of consciousness? You know, people talked about visiting the underworld in Homer's time. Um, so how did they do that? Was it dreams? Uh, dreams don't have the authority that psychedelic experience has. Um, there's something about psychedelic experience that, that, um, has this... It's not just an opinion, it's just not, it's not a fantasy, it's something real, it's objective truth. This is, uh, William James called the, the noetic quality of the mystical experience, um, and that certitude, um, comes from psychedelics. And, and so it seems totally plausible to me that at the very earliest stages of, uh, humanity, if, if people were indeed taking psychedelics, this might explain how they came up with these ideas. Um, there are other alternative theories, and it's not provable. I, I just don't know how we would begin to prove it, but it seems plausible. Um, and, you know, the ancient Greeks had a psychedelic that they used, we think, called e- they called it the Kykeon, K-Y-K-E-O-N, and they had an annual, uh, ritual ceremony, and it was the only time in the year where you could use this drug, and it was a, a ritual to d- and for Demeter and harvest or planting time, and everybody in Greek society did this. And people, it w- you had, it was secret. It was called the mysteries, the Eleusinian Mysteries, and you weren't supposed to talk about it, but there's a few accounts around and people talked about visiting the underworld, making contact with the dead. And, um, Carl Ruck, who's a classicist at BU says, well, that was a, um, that was a psychedelic potion. We don't know what they were using, whether it was mushrooms or something else. Um, the, the Greek use of drugs is very obscure. They only talked about wine, but the way they described what wine did to you, there was clearly something added to it, that they were adding other plant drugs to their wine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- MPMichael Pollan
Uh, because they would have these tiny little glasses when they'd take these big trips. So we don't know what it was.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Tiny glasses of wine?
- MPMichael Pollan
Tiny glasses. And they were very careful about when you used it, and, and, you know, people would completely lose control and it was just like, no, this isn't wine. This is something else.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
So some sort of a psychedelic from grapes or-
- MPMichael Pollan
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
... added to it?
- MPMichael Pollan
Well, I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
We don't know.
- MPMichael Pollan
Some people, Albert Hofmann, who discovered LSD or invented LSD, he thought it was ergot, that they'd figured out a way... Ergot is a, is a fungus that grows on grain, and it was, uh, the, the precursor chemical to LSD comes from ergot. And, uh, ergot is responsible for episodes of mass delirium in European history. You get a really wet year, the ergot grows on the rye, people eat bread made from it, and they go crazy. Some people think the Salem Witch Trials was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... came after a wet year and people had absorbed, uh, these women had eaten ergot and were having visions and things like that, which was interpreted as witchcraft, which to them was a very-
- JRJoe Rogan
I thought they were saying that the men had absorbed it and thought they were under spells.
- MPMichael Pollan
Oh, maybe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Maybe, maybe that too. I, I just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, probably everybody's tripping.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah. (laughs) So, um, anyway, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
So they think it's somehow or another
- MPMichael Pollan
The thinking is if you just eat ergot, you're not gonna be... You could get gangrene. It's, it's a m-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- MPMichael Pollan
It's not a clean chemical. And, um, but the thinking of, uh, Gordon Wasson and Carl Ruck, and they were collaborators on this theory, um, was that the Greeks perhaps had figured out a way to derive, uh, a purer chemical from ergot that could be made into something very much like LSD. But again, nobody has succeeded, and they've tried for the last 20 or 30 years to take ergot and make something, you know, through simple processes-
- 35:56 – 39:22
The Brain on Psychedelics: Default Mode Network, Ego, and ‘Opening the Valve’
- JRJoe Rogan
There's, it's an interesting quote, that quote you just said, uh, 'cause, because in actual studies of the human mind under the influence of psilocybin, it's actually been shown to shut off parts of the brain.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so the, the, the question is-
- MPMichael Pollan
I, I'm so happy you brought that up.
- JRJoe Rogan
... are we blocking off these, uh, constant f- frequencies that are around us or this experience that's around us? It is our own ego or our own mortality, our own desire to stay alive and protect ourselves, or whatever the, the various blockades that we put up, are those diminished by psilocybin that allows this ever-present experience to manifest itself?
- MPMichael Pollan
It's exactly right. The most, uh, the most interesting scientific finding, uh, of this current generation of research is that when they image the brains of people on psilocybin or LSD or ayahuasca, they expected to see fireworks, right? Lots of activity, 'cause the experience has lots of fireworks. But they found something that they didn't expect, which was a diminishment of activity in a very important brain network called the default mode network. This is in the midline and it connects parts of your cortex, which is the evolutionarily most recent part, to older, deeper sources of, uh, emotion and memory. And it's a hub in the brain, and the brain is a hierarchical system, and this, this, this is the orchestra conductor, as one of the neuroscientists put it. It, it, it's a regulator. So what happens in the default mode network normally? Well, it's very involved in, um-... self-reflection, self-criticism, worry. It's where your mind goes to wander. It's involved in time travel, thinking about the future or the past. It's involved in something scientists call theory of mind, the ability to imagine that another person has mental states and is not just a rock. Um, it is involved in what's called the experiential or autobiographical self, the way we kind of take what's happening to us and connect it to the story we tell ourselves about who we are, based on the past and the future. So it's, you know, if the ego has an address, it's in the default mode network.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MPMichael Pollan
And what does the ego do for you? The ego kind of patrols the borders, right? It's the, it's what keeps out, um, you know, things that are threatening to you. It keeps, uh, i- it's responsible for the repression of subconscious thought or strong emotion. Um, and it, and it, uh, it's a defense. It's a set of defenses. And psychedelics appear to turn this off, uh, to one degree or another, take the default mode network offline. When that happens, to go back to your metaphor, um, the, whatever is blocking, the valve that's blocking lots of information from coming in from outside or up from below in your subconscious, that's allowed to flow. And so you are getting more information, um, than you might otherwise. And this is a metaphor that, um, Aldous Huxley used in Doors of Perception, that consciousness is, uh, is eliminating more than it's creating. It's, it, consciousness is, is reducing our experience to the thin trickle of information we need to get ahead, to survive. Um, and that you, you open the doors of perception on these drugs by turning off this network and lots more information comes in, which can be overwhelming, uh, but also extraordinary. I mean, there is, that's wonder.
- 39:22 – 48:00
Writing Without Going Woo-Woo: Stigma, Coming Out, and a Journalism Approach
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there apprehension in writing a book like this and describing these things? Like as you're writing it and you're thinking about all these other people that are sort of cynical, straight-laced, non-drug using folks who might admire your previous work on agriculture or architecture or whatever, and you're sitting there going, "How do I-"
- MPMichael Pollan
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"... how do I get this through without looking like a guy who's losing his fucking mind or who's-"
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"... going super woo-woo Deepak Chopra on people?" Right? (laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, like how do you, how do you do this and maintain your position as a serious journalist?
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah. Well, i- I mean, I was nervous about undertaking-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MPMichael Pollan
... this project. Um, but I also came to think it was really important and, um, that there was something here and that ... You know, when I started this process, Stan Grof, the guy I made reference to earlier, he had said in the '60s something I thought was really outrageous. He said that psychedelics would be for the study of the mind what the microscope was for biology or the telescope for aus- uh, astronomy. This is a really outrageous claim to make. Um, but as time's gone on, that idea seems less crazy to me, that we are learning things about the mind that t- and that these drugs are teaching it in a scientific context and in an individual context. Um, so just because some people think it's embarrassing or woo-woo is not a w- is not a reason not to do it. I have to find a way to describe it. And, you know, I'm being a little speculative with you talking about, you know, origins of religion and stuff, but the book stays pretty close to, "Here's what we really know, and here's what I experienced." Um, I'm a science journalist, you know? And, um, uh, so I try to draw the line between now I'm speculating and now here's something we really know with some, with some certitude. But without question, I had some misgivings about describing psychedelic experience. There are legal issues, uh, there. Um, and that, yeah, I have a readership, I have a big readership that, you know, is happy if I just keep writing books on food, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... I had found something too, too interesting to pass up. And I've been gratified that, um, y- you know, I've been talking about this book on, like, network television. I didn't think I would be talking to Stephen Colbert about ego dissolution.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
And here we are.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
And he actually got the best line off on that whole appearance, though.
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd he say?
- MPMichael Pollan
He said, um, uh, he said, "Well, maybe the ego should be a controlled substance." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
I thought that was pretty good.
- JRJoe Rogan
That is a great line.
- MPMichael Pollan
The man is fast.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's a clever boy.
- MPMichael Pollan
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
So, um, so I found though that the, if I was willing to talk about these issues and my experiences in a matter-of-fact way, mainstream journalists would respond in kind. And so I've been on, like, CBS Morning Show and, uh, Terry Gross on Fresh Air and, and we've had a kind of, you know, conversation where we're looking at these as tools. What are they good for, what are they not good for, without getting caught up in the usual, um, uh, craziness that's associated with these, with these drugs. And, um, so th- that's what I'm trying to do is take that '60s crust off these things-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... and take a fresh look.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, f- for someone like me who's been a psychedelic advocate for a long time, it was extremely exciting news that a guy like you was stepping into the fray because you're, you're so well-established and well-respected already that I knew your approach on it was gonna be very clean and that I knew that people were gonna have to start looking at this like, "Wait, it's, Michael Pollan's looking at this. Like, this, this might not-"
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah. (laughs)
- 48:00 – 57:25
Mental Health Crisis as the Driver: Screening, Schizophrenia Risk, and Prohibition’s Costs
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, isn't it on the ballot in 2018 in California?
- MPMichael Pollan
They haven't quite got it on ... They're doing their petition drive right now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MPMichael Pollan
And in Oregon, too. And, um ... So, I don't know that it'll get through this time. It's a weird item to put on the ballot 'cause actually, a- a small minority of people know what psilocybin is. When I ... On this show, you're the first person who's said the ingredient in ma- ... Didn't say the ingredient in magic mushrooms.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MPMichael Pollan
You have some confidence that your audience knows what psilocybin is. But, but it's a v- unfamiliar word to most people. So, I don't know how people vote on that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Yeah, um-
- MPMichael Pollan
It may be premature, is what I'm suggesting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's all dependent upon getting the word out.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think if people understand what ... Like, the John Hopkins research or just the anecdotal research that some of these people have, uh, uh, had these incredibly life-changing experiences. But I think one of the things that you're saying is I think d- very important is that this isn't for everybody, and that if you have problems with normal consciousness, this is likely not for you.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
If you're one of those people that has schizophrenia in your family, perhaps, or-
- MPMichael Pollan
Forget it. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Don't do it.
- MPMichael Pollan
And, and, and in fact, those people are screened out of this research very carefully.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Schizo- schizophrenia, it's, it's a real issue with people with, uh, psilocybin and ma- and many psychedelics, right?
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah. What happens with schizophrenia is if you are at risk for it, um, either for, uh, because of, uh, inheritance, um, a psychedelic trip can set you off, can be the trigger for, uh, a life of it. And other things can, too. A divorce, your parents getting divorced sets people off.
- JRJoe Rogan
Parents? (laughs)
- MPMichael Pollan
Going to graduate school sets people off. Uh, if you're someone who's probably gonna get schizophrenia, any kind of mental trauma, if it happens at that window, which is in your early 20s and your late 20s, I think, um, and that's, that's why we did see some cases, 'cause that's the age people were using psychedelics in the '60s.... of having their first psychotic break. So, yeah. So if you're at risk for that or, or bipolar-
- JRJoe Rogan
And marijuana as well, by the way.
- MPMichael Pollan
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Oh, yeah, marijuana can do it also. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think the, the, the numbers though mirror the numbers, uh, in standard populations, when in terms of like, I think it's one out of 10. Like, one out of 10 people have some form of schizophrenia and that's mirrored in marijuana use.
- MPMichael Pollan
I didn't know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
That's really interesting.
- 57:25 – 1:03:40
Beyond Classic Psychedelics: Ketamine Clinics, Ibogaine for Opiates, and Medical Tradeoffs
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That's hilarious. Are you aware of any of the research they're doing now with ketamine and depression? And there, there... There's a lot of people that are getting administered pretty high doses of, uh-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... intravenous and intramuscular ketamine for depression, including one of my good friends, uh, Neal Brennan. He's gone through it several times and talked about it on the podcast and said it was a real game changer for him.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah, there's a lot of excitement in psychiatry about ketamine. Uh, ketamine is an anesthetic. Uh, it's a dissociative. Uh, it, it makes you feel separated from your body and that helps with pain. Um, so it's... I don't know if it's strictly speaking a psychedelic. It's certainly not a classic psychedelic. It doesn't work on those brain networks. Um, but, uh, it is legal 'cause it's been used as an anesthetic for years and it's relatively safe as an anesthetic compared to some of the others that are used. It's the one they use if, if, um, you know, you come into the trauma center and you've been shot or something, you need surgery and they don't have time to check whether you're allergic to any other drugs. That's the safe one to give you in a crisis.
- JRJoe Rogan
They also would carry it around during times of war and-
- MPMichael Pollan
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... administer it to people in the field.
- MPMichael Pollan
That's right. Yeah, they al- yeah. Um, and, uh, this... Uh, they don't really understand how it works, but they give people what is kind of a psychedelic dose. They go way out there. It's fairly brief, I believe. And many people with depression have found relief. It- it's not permanent. Um, they need to... It looks like they need to do it again every six months or something like that. Uh, but it seems to kind of reset the brain in a way that, um, many people are finding helpful. And this is all legal. I mean, you can... There are ketamine clinics, uh, where you can go, uh, and psychiatrists who are, who are administering it to people. Um, so for people who are struggling with depression and can't wait for psilocybin therapy to be approved for depression, which is still several years away, ketamine is, is worth exploring.
- JRJoe Rogan
What about ibogaine? Did you look into that at all?
- MPMichael Pollan
A little bit. Um, ibogaine is a psychedelic from a root of a tree that grows in Africa and it has been used specifically to treat opiate addiction. Um, and that's... God, if we need something now, a tool-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... to deal with opiate addiction. There are clinics in Mexico where they, they-
- JRJoe Rogan
I have a friend who has one down there.
- MPMichael Pollan
Really?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He opened it after he had his own personal problems with pills. He had a back injury, got hooked on pills, was really struggling to get off them. Went to Mexico to do ibogaine, got completely off of it, felt amazing, realized like, "Oh my God, I have to help people." And then opened up his own clinic.
- MPMichael Pollan
It's amazing. I mean, there's a bunch in Guadalajara. I don't know where he is, but there is, um, there is a... You know, people doing it. I don't know exactly what the legal status is in Mexico, whether it's legal or just tolerated.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think most drugs have been decriminalized in Mexico, including LSD and mushrooms and a lot of other things to try to do something to curb the violence-
- MPMichael Pollan
Oh, that's interesting.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that they're experiencing from the drug cartels.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
At least keep it non-local.
- MPMichael Pollan
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, a lot of the violence is coming from the drug cartels getting money to ship everything to the United States.
- MPMichael Pollan
Right. And we are-
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is-
- MPMichael Pollan
... driving that violence-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's-
- MPMichael Pollan
... with our use. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it, it is very strange that our insistence on prohibition is actually funding one of the largest drug and violence epidemics-
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah.
- 1:03:40 – 1:16:45
Integration and Insights: ‘Duh’ Moments, Love as Re-Emotionalized Truth, and Mental Groove Reset
- MPMichael Pollan
I had a lot of insights. Um, I don't know if I ... Yeah, I did actually. I-
- JRJoe Rogan
How many different trips did you have while you were doing this?
- MPMichael Pollan
I had, uh, six or seven. I, I, so I just, uh, a couple, two psilocybin trips, one guided, one not, an LSD trip, guided, uh, a couple ayahuasca circles, and then, um, I had a really weird psychedelic called 5-MeO-DMT, which is the smoked venom of the Sonoran Desert toad. Who figured that out, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... should get some kinda prize. Um, but, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a pretty, pretty potent one.
- MPMichael Pollan
Very potent, and thank God, short-acting, um, short-lived.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Um, it was, it was actually a horrible experience. That was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? You had a bad experience?
- MPMichael Pollan
... that was my worst. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I had a great experience on it.
- MPMichael Pollan
You did?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
Yeah. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
What was y- what was wrong with it?
- MPMichael Pollan
So I, you know, you take, like, one puff, and before you exhale, um ... I was ... I mean, there's a synthetic version too, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
I was taking the venom. Um, you're shot out of a cannon. There's no lead-up.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
It's no warmup. It's like foom. And I felt like I was actually, like, strapped to the outside of a rocket, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... going through space and through clouds and, like, the g-forces pulling down my cheeks, and it was just this mental storm-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
... without any, uh, nothing to orient myself.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MPMichael Pollan
There was no space. There was no time. There was no self. And, um, it was just unendurable, this punishing roar in my ears. And someone who had done it said eventually it's like a takeoff and you get into orbit and it, and it's, it's very nice at that point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MPMichael Pollan
But what happened with me is I had the, I had the storm. I mean, I felt like it was like ... The metaphor I use in the book is like ... I said, "I can't explain this." You can't tell a story without place, time, and character, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
Episode duration: 1:25:06
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