Joe Rogan Experience #1136 - Hamilton Morris

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (sighs) I try so…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      (sighs) I try so hard. (laughs)

   2. HMHamilton Morris0:03

      (laughs) Boom, and we're live, Hamilton Morris, (fingers snap) sober as fuck. How about you? Absolutely sober.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Yes, this time. So we did a podcast seven years ago and most people apparently didn't know how fucked up we were. But, uh, I figured, "Damn, we're here with Hamilton Morris, we should go deep." And we just kept hitting that joint till I lost most of my grasp on reality while we were talking. (laughs)

   4. HMHamilton Morris0:31

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:32

      It was just a very slippery conversation. I was just too high to form coherent thoughts. It was just... Whatever I pieced together was just, uh, it was... You know, it was al- almost like miming a conversation.

   6. HMHamilton Morris0:44

      (laughs) But now it's seven years later and you have a new place.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:48

      Yeah.

   8. HMHamilton Morris0:48

      It's beautiful.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:49

      Yeah. Well, you were... At the early days, we did it at my house.

   10. HMHamilton Morris0:52

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       That was way, way, way back in the day.

   12. HMHamilton Morris0:54

       I had no idea, really. I knew who you were, of course, but I didn't know about your podcast entirely. I'd seen clips of you on YouTube and it wasn't until I was driving home from that recording and my phone just filled with hundreds of emails that I realized, "Oh, wow, this is a, a serious phenomenon that I was not aware of."

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       (laughs)

   14. HMHamilton Morris1:13

       And now I see it's just become huge.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       It's a weird thing, dude. It, it's, uh, it's got the wheel. I just sort of have to show up. It's a very stran- uh, an- and it sounds like, um, false modesty or something like that, but I'm just being totally honest. Like, this thing does itself.

   16. HMHamilton Morris1:31

       I think a lot of it might have to do with the long form.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       Yeah.

   18. HMHamilton Morris1:34

       Because people are so used to seeing people's opinions condensed and filtered into these soundbites and snippets, and to hear an extended conversation with someone where they can actually tell stories and articulate their opinions in a nuanced, careful way is so rare.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:50

       I agree. Um, uh, it's one of the reasons why I don't do those shows anymore, like panel shows and things like that.

   20. HMHamilton Morris1:56

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:56

       It's just so frustrating.

   22. HMHamilton Morris1:57

       Oh, it's insane. I have very little experience with that sort of thing, but I did Dr. Oz, um-

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:02

       (laughs)

   24. HMHamilton Morris2:02

       (laughs) ... last year.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:03

       One of the worst ones.

   26. HMHamilton Morris2:04

       Yes. And I don't know how any normal person could function in that sort of environment. I mean, I have a, a TV show, so arguably, I'm well-trained for that sort of thing. But unless you're an actor who's prepared a line to say as soon as they point at you, there's no way that you could function because it's not a genuine conversation. It's just an opportunity to launch one-sentence soundbites and then audience applause.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       Yeah. And also, the audience is such a strange element to add to a conversation. I mean, if you and I were having this conversation exactly in this r- this room, but to the left of us is an enormous group of people, we would feel weird. We would have to address them, we'd have to turn to them. It, it would be odd.

   28. HMHamilton Morris2:46

       Following illuminated applause-

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:48

       Yeah.

   30. HMHamilton Morris2:48

       ... and laughter signs.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Hmm. Well, we're seeing…

   1. HMHamilton Morris15:00

      something that most people wouldn't believe, but to those patients that were taking it then, there was none of this cultural association with PCP being a drug that causes psychosis or makes you strip nude. It was simply another tool for a psychiatrist to use and help people release repressed memories or traumas that they were afraid to talk about when sober.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      Hmm. Well, we're seeing that now with MDMA, right? I mean, and also ketamine. Ketamine used ... being used as an, an actual tool for psychotherapy, particularly for people with depression. It's having really good results. My, uh, my friend (clears throat) excuse me, Neal Brennan, uh, who's a hilarious comedian, he's had struggles with depression, he, uh, he got great relief from, uh, from taking ketamine.

   3. HMHamilton Morris15:46

      Right. And what I think is really interesting is, you know, this is often packaged as a sort of psychedelic renaissance, but I think in a larger context, it's a drug-facilitated psychotherapy renaissance, because this was not just limited to psychedelics. People did something called narcoanalysis, where they would give people, um, sedatives like propofol, the drug that killed Michael Jackson, or, um, u- various barbiturates or various other drugs, and the relaxing effect would allow people to talk more openly to a therapist, and it was considered very effective. Now, this idea of a, a psychiatrist injecting you with a drug in order to help you talk about your problems is ... it's unheard of. I don't think anyone does it anymore, but it used to be very common, and I think a return to that is going to be really beneficial.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:32

      Yeah. I, I agree with you. I think the right drugs with the right cases and the right people, and I think we've got to get past these schedules, that when you have things like marijuana and psilocybin and, and especially DMT, which your own body produces, is a Schedule I drug in the famous Terence McKenna line, "We're all holding," you know, with ... when it comes to DMT. It's just stupid. It's just, it's stupid that these things are Schedule I when you're saying there's no medical benefit whatsoever or medical application for cannabis. It's fucking crazy. When some- uh, there, I mean, you wanna have something that really a- actively promotes a distrust in law enforcement, the scheduling of drugs is one of the best ones, because when you look at something like marijuana and you see that that's a Schedule I drug, that, that, that's infuriating to people that gain huge benefits from cannabis. I mean, people that have ... going through chemotherapy, people that have, you know, uh, s- interocular pressure from glaucoma. I mean, you can go down the list over and over and over again. P- kids that have epilepsy. There's so many people that have, uh, had great benefit, for- particularly from edible cannabis, people that have seizures. I mean, you could keep going on and on and on. It's just, it's an amazing plant. And to have that demonized because of some ridiculous propaganda from the 1930s that's still somehow or another clung on in 2018. When you think about all the information we have now...... with the internet and the fact that cannabis is still Schedule 1, you have assholes like Jeff Sessions still saying things like, "Good people don't smoke marijuana." Like, this is crazy talk.

   5. HMHamilton Morris18:13

      It's crazy but keep in mind, it was just about a, a hundred years ago that alcohol was prohibited in the United States and it took 13 years to reverse that. And that was alcohol.

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:22

      (laughs)

   7. HMHamilton Morris18:22

      There's no drug more integrated into our culture than alcohol and that took 13 years to reverse.

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:29

      Uh, what was that like back then? That must have been madness when alcohol was illegal and the cops would come in and jackbooted thugs would knock over gin mills and bust open kegs of whiskey and spill it all out. Like, what the fuck was that like?

   9. HMHamilton Morris18:43

      It was, it was disastrous, but I think what's interesting about that is it was a worthwhile experiment. To give them the benefit of the doubt, it was worthwhile to see because on some sense, you could say that prohibition has a certain logic to it. You could say drugs cause problems, so if we just make all the drugs illegal, then maybe those problems will disappear.

   10. JRJoe Rogan19:04

       Hmm.

   11. HMHamilton Morris19:04

       But it didn't work. The experiment failed. And there's nothing wrong with a failed experiment, but it's a problem if you keep repeating it over and over and over again for a hundred years looking for a different result.

   12. JRJoe Rogan19:15

       Right. And then go to other drugs and go, "Well, this one. Let's try this one. Let's make this one illegal."

   13. HMHamilton Morris19:21

       And it's a terrible PR situation for the police as well. If I were a police officer, I'd be the biggest opponent of the war on drugs and, of anyone in the government, because when you think about why does the average person in New York City love a firefighter? They love firefighters, but they hate cops. Why is that? It's because of the drug war because a firefighter isn't going to hurt you for something that wasn't really a crime to begin with, for some kind of victimless crime. A firefighter is just there to help you, to save you if you're in trouble. And the same would be true of police officers if it weren't for the drug war, ideally. There's a little more complexity to it than that.

   14. JRJoe Rogan19:57

       Sure. There's certain, certainly more complexity when it comes to (clears throat) shootings and-

   15. HMHamilton Morris20:02

       Yes, exactly.

   16. JRJoe Rogan20:02

       ... things along those lines. But, I mean, uh, the stop and frisks. I read something about stop and frisk in New York when they had, when they had that instituted that most of it was drugs. Most of it was, like, catching people with marijuana.

   17. HMHamilton Morris20:14

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan20:15

       Which is just fucking insane. You just stop, "Hey, you look like you might be streetwise. Get over here."

   19. HMHamilton Morris20:21

       And that's the way these laws have functioned from the very beginning. I mean, if you look at drug law in the UK, it tends to be very black and white. Something is legal or illegal. If it's legal, it can be sold in stores because it's legal. If it's illegal, it can't be sold anywhere. In the US, they've instead created this nebulous, far-reaching gray area where there's all sorts of things that are maybe illegal, kind of legal, do it but don't get caught. And, uh, and it's created an ability for the government to selectively prosecute people whenever they want, if they want.

   20. JRJoe Rogan20:55

       Mm, yeah. Well, that seems to be lessening. I mean, when you have someone like Jeff Sessions in office, it's very disturbing. But then Trump says things like he's very strong on states' rights to, you know, pass marijuana laws and things along those lines. Y- you look, you're very incredulous. (laughs)

   21. HMHamilton Morris21:16

       (laughs) I don't know. I mean, I, I suppose I am a bit incredulous when it comes to Trump doing anything good. But, uh, i-

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:24

       I think if you told him that people love him more if he did things good, he would do things good.

   23. HMHamilton Morris21:29

       That's probably true.

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:30

       I think that's-

   25. HMHamilton Morris21:30

       If someone that he trusted said it, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan21:32

       I think that's as m- I think we gotta get somebody in deep. We gotta get a mole in there. Gotta get somebody who's good at back rubs.

   27. HMHamilton Morris21:38

       Get-

   28. JRJoe Rogan21:38

       Gets behind them.

   29. HMHamilton Morris21:39

       ... Ivanka on the podcast.

   30. JRJoe Rogan21:41

       (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   (laughs) …

   1. HMHamilton Morris30:00

      Those are the ones that really teach you something. And when you're trying to talk about psychedelics with people who've never used them, it's not a great selling point to say, "Oh, you know, the best thing that can happen is you're gonna think you're gonna die."

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:12

      (laughs)

   3. HMHamilton Morris30:14

      But that is ...... arguably the best thing that can happen-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:17

      Yeah.

   5. HMHamilton Morris30:17

      ... is to think that you're going to die, because that's a confrontation with the overarching fear, the fear that generates all other fears. And if you conquer that fear, then your life will almost certainly improve.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:29

      Well, what is one thing that's, uh, sort of genuine- genuinely universally accepted as a beneficial experience is a near-death experience. Sort of universally accepted as a transformative moment in people's lives. Like, I had this near-death experience and I realized, "Wow, I gotta get my shit together." After that heart attack, I realized that life is a gift and I changed the way I think about things, and I started calling people that I loved and telling them that I loved them. This is the same, you can get a near-death experience from cannabis, you just don't ever die (laughs) .

   7. HMHamilton Morris31:00

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:00

      But you really do. I mean, it's the death of so many perceptions and so many things about your life, especially from edible cannabis, which I think is probably one of the least understood and most potent things that people are consuming on a daily basis. I- I can't tell you how many times I've given someone edible marijuana and they're fucking convinced that it's been laced with something awful and that they're going to die. But then afterwards, they come out of it and they're like, "Oh, I guess, uh, I got some work to do." (laughs)

   9. HMHamilton Morris31:30

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:31

       The only way I would disagree with you is people that are prone to psychotic breaks.

   11. HMHamilton Morris31:37

       Yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:37

       People... Yeah, because that... There- there is a absolute genuine connection between people who have a slippery hold on reality and some experiences with psychedelics that lead them down a bad road.

   13. HMHamilton Morris31:50

       That's true. Um, it can... It's a stressor, and like all stressors, it can precipitate a psychotic break. Uh, they've done pretty large-scale epidemiological analyses of psychedelic drug users versus the non-psychedelic drug using population and the incidence of mental illness isn't any higher. So I don't think that you can argue that psychedelics cause mental illness, but you can, and in- in some measures it seems to actually reduce it in terms of things like alcoholism, substance abuse disorders. But, um, but it can be a stressor that would precipitate such an episode in a susceptible individual. And I had a very traumatic and formative experience myself where my best friend had a psychotic break while I was with him, tripping, so I've seen this firsthand. I- I know exactly what it looks like.

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:38

       Yeah, I've had friends have real bad experiences too where they're screaming and yelling and then, uh, disassociative and then afterwards become very strange and have a- a really hard time with reality for a bit.

   15. HMHamilton Morris32:50

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:50

       I've never seen someone have a complete psychotic break from it.

   17. HMHamilton Morris32:53

       This was that. He never recovered.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:55

       Never?

   19. HMHamilton Morris32:55

       He never recovered. He was my best friend at the time and he never recovered.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:58

       So he was fine before the psychedelics?

   21. HMHamilton Morris33:00

       Yes.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:01

       Jesus Christ.

   23. HMHamilton Morris33:02

       But again, you know, it's... And that happened early-

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:04

       And he's... So now he's still fucked?

   25. HMHamilton Morris33:07

       Yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:07

       Damn.

   27. HMHamilton Morris33:08

       But again, you know, I- I typically don't tell that story in public because it's- it could be misinterpreted as a scare story. You know, I don't... It's impossible to prove the counterfactual. Would it have happened without psychedelics? Almost certainly, I can't say. All I know is that he took a very high dose of a, like, a psilocin ester and, um, had this episode, he was hospitalized, and he was not the same afterwards. So I'm aware that this is, uh, something to- that happens, but it also typically happens in the early 20s, late teens, the same time that people typically have psychotic breaks and develop schizophrenia.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:50

       Yeah, the instances of schizophrenia in people who use cannabis are, uh, cannabis in particular, but I don't know about other psychedelics, but I would imagine they're very similar. They're exactly the same as the incidences of schizophrenia in non-using populations. It's like 1%. 1% across the board seem to have issues with schizophrenia. And the- the real question is, how many of those people could... (sighs) I mean, is it avoidable? Like, w- if your friend had never done that and instead had, you know, become a marathon runner or something and, you know, found some other outlets for his energy, would he have never gone down that road? We don't know.

   29. HMHamilton Morris34:31

       It's- it's impossible to say.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:31

       Yeah, it's impossible to say. I think it's very important to talk about that though. And with further research, perhaps we could isolate genes, you know, like they have for CTE now, they have, um... They can do an analysis of your genes and then determine whether or not something like football would be a dangerous path for you because you have a- a higher probability of developing CTE. It would be wonderful if they figured out a way to do that with psilocybin or with cannabis or with anything else and be able to recognize the potential links to psychotic breaks and to, you know, a host of different mental disorders that could possibly be triggered by high doses.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Well, that's a great…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      title, the chain..."

   2. HMHamilton Morris45:01

      Well, that's a great excuse-

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      Yeah.

   4. HMHamilton Morris45:02

      ... from the perspective of the writer.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      But, but it's true. Like, the, uh, the... Uh, Rolling Stone did an article about me and they called me a psychedelic warrior, and I, I said to the guy who wrote the article, "What the fuck is that?" I was laughing. And he goes, "Dude, I did not write that."

   6. HMHamilton Morris45:14

      Yeah. And-

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:15

      An editor gets ahold of it, tries to make it more salacious. It becomes something that's more... It's more likely for people to buy or click.

   8. HMHamilton Morris45:24

      Right, especially with headlines. That is-

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:26

      Yes.

   10. HMHamilton Morris45:26

       That is true. And the real problem is that this sort of outrage culture and comment culture that has emerged provides no incentive for truth. Because suppose, um, someone were to write an article about this conversation we're having right now and it could say, "Hamilton Morris says kratom should be illegal," or something like that. Then that will get m- so much more engagement because-

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:49

       Right.

   12. HMHamilton Morris45:49

       ... then you'll have all these people saying, "Fuck Hamilton."

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:51

       Of course.

   14. HMHamilton Morris45:52

       "He, he's a, he's a traitor. How dare he say that it should be illegal," that didn't watch it. And then you'll have other people arguing with those people saying, "Well, listen to the interview. Hey, hey, he actually never said anything about that."

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:02

       Hmm.

   16. HMHamilton Morris46:02

       "Listen carefully to what he was saying." And then you create this whole engagement, a bigger engagement for doing the wrong thing than you'd get for doing the right thing.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:09

       True, but the initial statement is much stickier. The initial statement of, "Hamilton Morris is a bad guy because he thinks kratom should be illegal," or, "Kratom should be illegal," that is what more people are gonna pay attention to. Far less people read the retraction than read the initial.

   18. HMHamilton Morris46:25

       Of course.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       This is one of the, the real more insidious things about printing things that are patently untrue purposely, that people do do things that are untrue with the caveat that they could just print a retraction that maybe 30% of the people that read the original article are gonna read. The, the initial imprint is what's gonna stick with people. Even if you... Someone calls you a rapist, okay? And then it turns out that the person who called you a rapist was lying. The people who heard you were a rapist first, they still have that in their head. "Oh, he's a rapist."

   20. HMHamilton Morris46:55

       Yeah, there's no retraction.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:55

       "I heard he's a rapist." Right. It's just, it's very difficult to get slippery ideas out of people's heads. So if somebody writes some article saying that you're against the legalization of certain drugs and they, they start looking at you as being compromised, it's... The influence that people have today can't be understated because the reach is so powerful. The reach of any article, any video, any... It's, it's so significantly greater than any other sort of distribution of information in the history of human beings. The, the potential for it impacting large groups of people is so huge now.

   22. HMHamilton Morris47:35

       Yes. And this is... The result of that is also that the viewers have a lot of power, and I think that in some sense they don't quite recognize the nature of that power. It's like voting with your dollar. If you spend all of your time commenting hatefully on things you don't like, you are actively encouraging the production of more of that thing that you don't like.

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:56

       Right.

   24. HMHamilton Morris47:56

       If you like something, you need to engage with what you approve of more, because every time you engage with something you dislike, advertisements are sold and it has been incentivized to do that bad thing. And that's a really sticky thing when we have this culture where everyone loves to out- show their outrage and virtue signal-

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:15

       Mm-hmm.

   26. HMHamilton Morris48:15

       ... and show that they're on the right side and all this stuff constantly to say, "Hey, step back. You're just feeding the problem."

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:22

       Yeah. I think there's also a problem with a lot of what people are doing during the day is something they don't want to do. A lot of what people are doing is some job that they don't enjoy, and during that job they have freedom to go online. And in this state of feeling like shit about whatever they're doing, they enjoy complaining about stuff. And so the- they'll read things and type things and get engaged in things, and there's some sort of a sport to getting pissed off about stuff. Instead of just spending your time doing things you actually enjoy. It seems so simple. It sounds like a, a simple solution, but if you could figure out a way to actively...... ignore things that are gonna piss you off and seek out things that are gonna excite you and intrigue you, you're gonna be a healthier, happier person. And doesn't that... isn't that ultimately what everybody wants? I wanna be happier. Don't you wanna be happier?

   28. HMHamilton Morris49:15

       Of course.

   29. JRJoe Rogan49:15

       But why do we seek out shit that pisses us off?

   30. HMHamilton Morris49:18

       Because it becomes a sort of addiction.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   What is the root…

   1. HMHamilton Morris1:00:00

      substance. It's not about what's safe and what's dangerous, it's about what people like to use, what's enjoyable.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      What is the root of that?

   3. HMHamilton Morris1:00:08

      I think it's, you know, a puritanical idea that, that any sort of euphoria is bad.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

      Right.

   5. HMHamilton Morris1:00:16

      I mean, euphoria is listed as a side effect in some medications.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      (laughs)

   7. HMHamilton Morris1:00:19

      We, we assume that it's a bad thing to feel good.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:22

      Right there with diarrhea.

   9. HMHamilton Morris1:00:24

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:24

       (laughs) Yeah, you know, it's like euphoria, diarrhea.

   11. HMHamilton Morris1:00:27

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

       Yeah, that is a strange thing, like, that's gonna c- it's gonna cut back productivity and make you a lazy ne'er-do-well and just become a, uh, a, a burden on society.

   13. HMHamilton Morris1:00:37

       Or-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       That's, that's a common-

   15. HMHamilton Morris1:00:39

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:39

       ... common way of describing people who use drugs.

   17. HMHamilton Morris1:00:41

       Sure, and this fundamental idea that sobriety is good.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:45

       Yes.

   19. HMHamilton Morris1:00:45

       You know, you look on Instagram, people post a selfie and say, "Six months sober, guys."

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:50

       Mm-hmm.

   21. HMHamilton Morris1:00:50

       "Thank you so much," and tons of congratulations because it's a virtue, because you accomplished something.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:55

       Right. Yeah.

   23. HMHamilton Morris1:00:55

       You're not using drugs.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       Yeah.

   25. HMHamilton Morris1:00:58

       Whereas in other cultures, that would not be the case. People would just say, "Oh, you've decided not to work with, uh, a certain medicine? That's an interesting choice," not an accomplishment necessarily.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

       Who was saying, was it Kyle Kingsbury that was saying that how much he hates the term plant medicine or was it Dennis? Think it was Kyle. Uh-You don't like the term plant medicine, do you?

   27. HMHamilton Morris1:01:20

       I don't u- well...

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

       Do you bo- there's a, it's a weird, sort of pretentious-

   29. HMHamilton Morris1:01:24

       Yes, yes. I know. Well, people call ayahuasca "the medicine"-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

       Yeah.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:17:32

   So you think someone…

   1. HMHamilton Morris1:15:00

      was botched and-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:01

      So you think someone came into his house and did that?

   3. HMHamilton Morris1:15:03

      Yes.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:03

      And he was accused of it? Ugh.

   5. HMHamilton Morris1:15:04

      Yes. But, but because he had no motive, people had to construct a motive. They had to c- concoct a reason that this doctor would have murdered his entire family. And so what's a good reason? Oh, am- amphetamine. He'd been using this, uh, amphetamine-containing diet pill, so that explains it all, right?

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:21

      Mm-hmm.

   7. HMHamilton Morris1:15:22

      But it doesn't. It's a terrible explanation. People use amphetamine all the time without killing their family, so I just wanna be very careful about, you know, do these things play a role in human behavior? Of course they do. But do they determine human behavior? No.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

      That's a very good point. There's a lot of factors. There's just ... It's messy. Being a person is messy.

   9. HMHamilton Morris1:15:40

      It's very complicated.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:15:41

       I mean, you're a different person at noon than you are at 7:00 PM.

   11. HMHamilton Morris1:15:44

       Of course.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:15:45

       Yeah. I mean, um, (laughs) so ... It's just, it's so complicated, and the more limitations we put on research and the more stigma we put on the use of these things, the more murky these waters are gonna be.

   13. HMHamilton Morris1:16:04

       Yeah. And I think people don't even appreciate the extent to which all these drugs have been made illegal. Of course everyone's heard of cannabis, or Schedule I, LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, but the list is long. It's hundreds and hundreds of chemicals. And a lot of these chemicals are chemicals with no supporters. No one's fighting for them. There's a- a- a substance called 2C-N, one of Shulgin's creations. They just threw it in Schedule I. No one uses it. If you scour the internet, I'd be surprised if you could find three reports of people using 2C-N. Totally unheard of, but they just throw it in Schedule I because why the hell not? No one's gonna stand up for it. That's the end of 2C-N.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:40

       But they miss a lot of shit too, right? Like, they miss 5-methoxydimethyltryptamine. They miss that.

   15. HMHamilton Morris1:16:45

       No, that was made illegal in 2011.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:48

       Right.

   17. HMHamilton Morris1:16:48

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:48

       But for 1970, when everything else g- got thrown into the mix, they made it illegal. I bought that shit. Used to be able to buy it online.

   19. HMHamilton Morris1:16:55

       Yeah, so did I.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:56

       Yeah, it was crazy.

   21. HMHamilton Morris1:16:56

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:16:56

       You could buy a fucking jug of it then get the whole city high.

   23. HMHamilton Morris1:16:59

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:16:59

       You could buy it al- online.

   25. HMHamilton Morris1:17:00

       Yeah, because it was never popular, so-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:02

       So how did they make it illegal? How do they, how do they do that?

   27. HMHamilton Morris1:17:06

       They don't need any reason. They can simply say that it has abuse potential and make it illegal, and if no one opposes it, then it becomes illegal. And that's how this list has gotten so long. You have all these people fighting for the legality of cannabis and these other substances that are known to have therapeutic potential, but these other more obscure substances that are really only of concern to scientists who are very seriously disinclined to break the law for the sake of their research. Drug users don't care about breaking the law.

Episode duration: 2:53:37