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Joe Rogan Experience #1147 - Dr. Debra Soh

Dr. Debra Soh is a former sex researcher, neuroscientist, columnist, and podcast host. She is the co-host with Jonathan Kay of "Wrongspeak" available on iTunes & Google Play.

Joe RoganhostDr. Debra SohguestJamie Vernonguest
Jul 27, 20183h 9mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:01 – 0:32

    Meeting Dr. Debra Soh: from sexual neuroscience to science journalism

    1. JR

      Five, four, three, two, one. (claps) Hello, Dr. Soh.

    2. DS

      Hi.

    3. JR

      What's happening? Pull this sucker-

    4. DS

      I'm good.

    5. JR

      ... about a fist from your face. There you go.

    6. DS

      Is that good?

    7. JR

      Yeah, perfect.

    8. DS

      All right.

    9. JR

      Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it.

    10. DS

      Thank you for having me.

    11. JR

      Uh, I've watched a bunch of your videos. I've listened to a bunch of your talks, read a bunch of your work. Y- very interesting person.

    12. DS

      Thank you.

    13. JR

      And this is a good time for a person like you. Things seem to be kind of scrambled.

    14. DS

      (laughs) A little bit, yeah.

    15. JR

      It's a little topsy-turvy out there these days.

    16. DS

      Yeah, a little bit crazy.

  2. 0:32 – 2:28

    Why she left academia: ideology, mobbing, and self-censorship in research

    1. JR

      So you're a sex neuroscientist? Is that an accurate description?

    2. DS

      Yeah, I'm a former academic sex researcher. Uh, my PhD is in sexual neuroscience research, and now I work as a science journalist and a columnist.

    3. JR

      And why former?

    4. DS

      Because the climate in academia has changed so much. Like you mentioned how things are topsy-turvy, but that's pretty much how you can describe academia nowadays, even in the hard sciences.

    5. JR

      Yeah, it's, um, it's getting a little weird. What do you attribute it to?

    6. DS

      I think it's a combination of things. I think it's, uh, particular ideologies coming in and taking over, but they've been there for a while, but I think it's th- that- that they've reached the mainstream. I see it as political correctness running amok, and I see it as legitimate researchers not being able to speak out because they've got enough on their plate with their research, their teaching, they've got their students, you know, they're super busy. And then on top of it, they don't want to deal with the mobbing that will inevitably happen if they do speak out. So things are kind of in favor right now of the craziness.

    7. JR

      But it's fascinating though, uh, as an outsider, to watch the craziness.

    8. DS

      I bet. (laughs)

    9. JR

      T- yeah, it's a, I mean, I'm glad I don't have to be in school right now and, and deal with it, but to watch it from the outside, it's just so interesting.

    10. DS

      Interesting in what way, though?

    11. JR

      Well, because it's almost like there's a sort of a delusional aspect to it, like a, uh, an agreed-upon delusional aspect.

    12. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      It's like, like the gender one in particular, g- the gen- gender is very strange right now.

    14. DS

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      Like, um, there's, uh, there's first of all, the LBGTQIA... What else?

    16. DS

      Et cetera, et cetera. Oh my God, there's-

    17. JR

      Is there more-

    18. DS

      ... there's-

    19. JR

      ... are there more?

    20. DS

      ... there are tons, yeah.

    21. JR

      They're adding more to it.

    22. DS

      They keep adding more, yeah, to be more inclusive.

    23. JR

      You okay, Jamie?

    24. JV

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Something going on?

    26. JV

      The focus is fucked up.

    27. JR

      Oh. Well, what's going on?

    28. JV

      It's all right. I got it.

    29. JR

      All right. I thought maybe we were down again.

    30. JV

      Nope, nope.

  3. 2:28 – 7:00

    Selective trust in science: climate change vs. gender claims

    1. JR

      Um, yeah, it just... But gender in particular, one of the things that I said about, uh, one of the more bizarre things about today's political climate is that people selectively agree with science.

    2. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      Like when it comes to clim- climate change-

    4. DS

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... like, everybody is like pro-science, like science all the way.

    6. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      Look at the studies.

    8. DS

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      Even when they don't even understand the studies, like there's a, a famous... And you know, uh, you get in trouble when you bring up Tucker Carlson.

    10. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      Because people go, "Oh, you're a Tucker Carlson fan." I'm, I'm just, as a human being-

    12. DS

      I'm not gonna get mad.

    13. JR

      ... he made, he made some very good points with Bill Nye. He had Bill Nye on, they were talking about science, and he said, "Okay, if human beings are responsible for climate change, what percentage? What are the numbers?" Like... And Bill Nye really isn't a scientist, he's a science, um, uh, b- you know, what would you call him?

    14. DS

      Personality, he does have media personality.

    15. JR

      Yeah. He's a guy who's, uh, you know, he's, um, a promoter of science, but not really necessarily a scientist. So he's, he doesn't, he's doesn't have long term study and research to climate change, he's just sort of on there in a slightly arrogant way saying things that I agree with.

    16. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      Like, what I agree with is that human beings are responsible, at least in part, with climate change.

    18. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      This is what all the research points to.

    20. DS

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      But when Tucker Carlson was pressing him on it, he really didn't have any answers for it. So it's one of those things where like people on the left will blindly support science in one way. (phone ringing) Is that you or me? Dang it. If it's me, I'm gonna be very upset with myself.

    22. JV

      It's me, I'm a loser.

    23. DS

      Don't think it's me. (laughs)

    24. JR

      Um, but then when it comes to gender, you watch his show.

    25. DS

      Oh, yeah.

    26. JR

      He's got this wacky show on Netflix-

    27. DS

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      ... where they're, they're singing songs about gender can be fluid and gender can be this and-

    29. DS

      Mm-hmm. There's more than two.

    30. JR

      Yeah, there's more than two genders, which he didn't use to say.

  4. 7:00 – 9:18

    Gender fluidity, binaries, and the push for gender-neutral language

    1. JR

      Like what is gender-fluid?

    2. DS

      Well, it's this idea that you can be one gender one day, another gender the other day, or it might cycle through the day, or-

    3. JR

      Doesn't-

    4. DS

      ... even you're a mix of both.

    5. JR

      That seems like if it was anything else, you would have to be fucking crazy, right? If it was anything else.

    6. DS

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      If like, if you decided, "Well today I'm African."

    8. DS

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      "Well, tomorrow I'm Chinese."

    10. DS

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      You know, "Oh, today, uh, I'm tall. Tomorrow I'm short. Today I'm a pixie. Tomorrow I'm a wood elf."

    12. DS

      (laughs)

    13. JR

      Like-

    14. DS

      But I think everybody is, we don't have to call it something like gender-fluid. Everyone is a mix of male and female, right?

    15. JR

      Sure.

    16. DS

      Like you have people that are maybe more typically masculine or more typically feminine, but even still, there, there's n- I don't think there are many people that are 100%-

    17. JR

      No.

    18. DS

      ... one way or the other.

    19. JR

      No. Well, what does that even mean? I mean, people are clearly more masculine than other people, but does that mean that the people like, you know, let's pick a person, Bill Nye.

    20. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      Does that mean he's not a man?

    22. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JR

      He's clearly a man.

    24. DS

      Exactly, yeah.

    25. JR

      He's clearly a man. He's not a LeBron James, but he's a man.

    26. DS

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      You know, there's, there's, there's obviously a spectrum.

    28. DS

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      But-

    30. DS

      I almost feel like that way of thinking is more old-fashioned, because this is all about being progressive and open-minded. But I think if someone is a man, but is maybe more female-typical, to say that this person is a different category of gender, or that they're m- I don't know, not male, to me, that's more stereotypical. You know what I mean? I think it's, it's not progressive to say, "If you're a mix of both, you must be something different."

  5. 9:18 – 12:06

    ‘Theybies,’ childhood transition, and the fear of confusing gender nonconformity with trans identity

    1. JR

      I put up a, a, a story on Twitter the other day about people that are raising their kids with they and them.

    2. DS

      I saw that, yeah.

    3. JR

      They're calling them theybies instead of babies.

    4. DS

      Yeah. Fun, fun times. (laughs)

    5. JR

      (laughs) What the fuck is that?

    6. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      Like, uh, I just ...

    8. DS

      I think it's coming from a, for some parents, it's coming from a good place.

    9. JR

      Yes.

    10. DS

      Like they obviously want the best for their kids and they don't wanna limit the kid in terms of what they might be interested in. And I think because the media is telling them if you let girls play with dolls, that's terrible and they're gonna end up, you know, not having any sort of prospects when they grow up in terms of their jobs or, I don't know, it's such a terrible thing to be female-typical nowadays. But I mean, like you mentioned, it's biology that's gonna dictate what your kids play with. And then in other cases, I think it's parents that want to be special.

    11. JR

      Well, it's also weird because if your son is trans, it's totally fine-

    12. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      ... for him to be female-typical.

    14. DS

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    15. JR

      Like it's celebrated.

    16. DS

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      Like if you have a trans son and he likes wearing lipstick and short-

    18. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      ... skirts and prancing around, then he's fabulous.

    20. DS

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Like there was a, a boy, uh, in New York and there was this whole thing about he's the youngest ever drag queen.

    22. DS

      Yeah, I saw that.

    23. JR

      And, and everybody's going crazy. And people were angry about it, you know, some-

    24. DS

      He was being exploited.

    25. JR

      Yeah. Some people were angry and saying he's being exploited by his parents, and some people thought it was wonderful-

    26. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      ... that this kid was so expressive when he's so young. And then other people said, had, had a good point, they said, "Well, it's, uh, it's very sexualized." Like how is this any different than someone who's in a beauty pageant like a-

    28. DS

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      ... JonBenét Ramsey type situation-

    30. DS

      Well, if it was a-

  6. 12:06 – 15:49

    Pathology vs. identity: when does affirmation become indulgence?

    1. JR

      But then the, the gender fluid one, I was reading this article about this guy who varies by the day.

    2. DS

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      He ... In, like, in the day, like, he'll-

    4. DS

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... have periods of stress where he'll switch over to a woman. There was actually, um, a Radiolab podcast-

    6. DS

      Okay.

    7. JR

      ... where they interviewed a person that has this same issue. And, um, the person was clearly abnormal-

    8. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      ... in the way they communicated and the way they thought. Th- it wasn't like you were dealing with some guy that you would trust with your taxes.

    10. DS

      (laughs)

    11. JR

      You know what I mean?

    12. DS

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      It was like, the dude was wacky, and then now he's a chick, and now he's back to being a guy again.

    14. DS

      Okay.

    15. JR

      And, uh-

    16. DS

      So he actually transitioned?

    17. JR

      In mid-conversation.

    18. DS

      Like, physically?

    19. JR

      No, I don't know. I didn't see it-

    20. DS

      Oh. (laughs)

    21. JR

      ... 'cause I was just listening.

    22. DS

      Okay. Okay.

    23. JR

      But he's like, "Well, now I'm Peter again."

    24. DS

      Oh, I see what you mean. I see. Okay.

    25. JR

      Not Wendy, you know? (laughs)

    26. DS

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      Like, what the fuck?

    28. DS

      Hi, Wendy.

    29. JR

      Well, it's ... I don't know how much of that is indulgent.

    30. DS

      Oh, yeah. Yeah.

  7. 15:49 – 20:57

    Caitlyn Jenner, rewards for identity, and the “overcorrection” problem

    1. JR

      You know? I mean, this is ... I, I had to construct a bit to mock Caitlyn Jenner. I had-

    2. DS

      I saw it.

    3. JR

      But it was a very complicated bit.

    4. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      Like, I had to figure out how to do this.

    6. DS

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      I was like, o- obviously this is nonsense and foolish, but I don't want to appear cruel.

    8. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      So what is a way to do this? So my way was to mock myself mercilessly-

    10. DS

      (laughs)

    11. JR

      ... and which is kind of true. Like, I really do have three daughters, and I really do get brutalized in my house. Like-

    12. DS

      (laughs)

    13. JR

      ... I really do think they chip away at my manhood. It's kind of a joke. But, I mean, it really is, it's all girly in my house. My fucking house is so girly. Everyone's girly. They're always talking about girly shit. It's kind of-

    14. DS

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      ... hilarious.

    16. DS

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      But the joke was that if my manhood was a mountain of marbles, every day, they'd take two marbles.

    18. DS

      (laughs)

    19. JR

      They'd just take one.

    20. DS

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Be like, "You don't even need these."

    22. DS

      (laughs)

    23. JR

      These are ... What do you care? God." And then that I'm not gonna go out like Bruce Jenner.

    24. DS

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      And that one d- (laughs) that one day that they ... And so I had to concoct this whole thing that they were demons, which is how they conjured up all that money.

    26. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      Like, how else would they have hundreds of millions of dollars through no discernible reason?

    28. DS

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      There's no, there's no way you could, like, explain to someone how they made so much money if they didn't understand our culture.

    30. DS

      Yeah.

  8. 20:57 – 23:20

    Feminism, misandry, and identity-politics tribalism

    1. DS

      Yeah. I think feminism is part of it, the mainstream aspect of this really far-left feminism. I used to call myself a feminist. I don't anymore just because the things that people used to say feminism stood for, like hating men, being, uh, I don't know, just on-

    2. JR

      But they don't say that. No, no one says-

    3. DS

      Well, they do. Some of them do. They s-

    4. JR

      Do they say that?

    5. DS

      They, they say they hate men. Oh, yeah. I have friends who say ... Male friends who say to me, "Oh, my female friend said that men are trash. Is that normal?" (laughs)

    6. JR

      Well, there's a woman that I know that's a feminist that has on her, uh, her Twitter account, it says, "Trust no man." Like just openly proclaiming that.

    7. DS

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      Well, if you're straight, good luck.

    9. DS

      (laughs)

    10. JR

      Good luck with your life-

    11. DS

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      If you're saying, "Trust no man."

    13. DS

      But imagine if you said it about women, you know, trusting-

    14. JR

      That would be a terrible thing.

    15. DS

      Yeah, that would be ... That'd be awful as well.

    16. JR

      Yeah, you'd be a misogynist.

    17. DS

      But it's acceptable to hate on men now.

    18. JR

      Well, nobody criticizes misandry, you know. It just ... It's not something that is, that gets brought up.

    19. DS

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      I've never ... I've never even said that word before. I've only written it and said it or written it and heard it.

    21. DS

      I mean, I get it. I do. I think feminism at the core had some good aspects in the beginning, but it's just gone off the rails more recently.

    22. JR

      Well, equality has great aspects.

    23. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      But I think the problem with any like ... White power is obviously awful, right?

    25. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JR

      You say white power. Well, you're, you're ... What you mean is you're racist against other races, you're into white people.

    27. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JR

      But brown power's okay. Brown pride's okay, right? Okay.

    29. DS

      Well, now, nowadays they see it that way, yeah.

    30. JR

      Male pride is not good.

  9. 23:20 – 28:42

    Casual sex, dating norms, and consensual non-monogamy

    1. DS

      Yeah. I see both sides. I see some women, which I, which I find interesting because I think it's confusing for young women now who are starting to date and they think, "I don't really want to have casual sex, but I'm being told that's what I should do." And-

    2. JR

      Is that what they're being told?

    3. DS

      I think so. I think that-

    4. JR

      By who?

    5. DS

      By the media, more like it's empowering to go out and sleep with as many people as you want and to be like a man. Like if you look at college campuses and, and how there's quite a bit of casual sex going on, and I don't think that's for everyone. I think from an evolutionary perspective too, women don't like that as much.

    6. JR

      Hmm. I was talking to a friend of mine today about this, uh, who's in the military.

    7. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JR

      And he was saying what's crazy about certain branches of the military is you have like 100 men-

    9. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      ... to one women. To one woman.

    11. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JR

      And this one woman th- Especially like if they're deployed and there's ... They have the pick of the litter, and they'll just fuck a gang of dudes. (laughs) And... (laughs)

    13. DS

      At the same time?

    14. JR

      I would never talk to ... I've never thought about it that way before, but he was like, y- you know, "Well, everybody just sort of agrees that nobody has this one girl."

    15. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JR

      Like that nobody is gonna own her.

    17. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JR

      And that, you know, she can have sex with as many guys as she wants. So like, the, what he was saying is like, at least in his experience, that the whole dynamic of male-female relationships shift.

    19. DS

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      And these girls can basically date as many of these guys as she wants.

    21. DS

      Hmm.

    22. JR

      It's kind of interesting.

    23. DS

      And they don't shame her for that?

    24. JR

      Well, they can't-

    25. DS

      (laughs)

    26. JR

      ... because there's only one.

    27. DS

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      It's like (laughs) -

    29. DS

      (laughs)

    30. JR

      ... they don't want her to get angry at them.

  10. 28:42 – 35:42

    “Gender is a social construct”: why simple narratives win

    1. JR

      Yeah. And I think, I mean, a- this is very unrelated to the whole... I mean, but it's not. It's, wh- when it comes to gender, um, I think there's just this thing that people, people want things to be more easily explained than they are.

    2. DS

      Yeah, that's true. I could see that. Because it takes a lot of work to actually go. So people who say that gender's a social construct.

    3. JR

      That's a good one.

    4. DS

      Sounds very nice.

    5. JR

      I love saying that.

    6. DS

      It's not. (laughs)

    7. JR

      Start saying that for no reason at all.

    8. DS

      It's not true, but it's infuriating because it's everywhere now. Like, this is what children are being taught in school up in Canada. That's what they're being taught in their curriculum, and there's absolutely no truth to it at all. But I mean, if you read the scientific studies, you cannot come away from them saying, "Gender's a social construct." There's absolutely none.

    9. JR

      What's the argument for it? Like, if you were arguing for it?

    10. DS

      That, uh ... I guess the h- the idea is that women should be i- equal. And obviously, as a woman, I believe that, and so any sort of subjugation of women must somehow be imposed by society. Because if we acknowledge that women are different biologically in any way, that's gonna be used as justification why they don't deserve to be treated the same as men or they're not as capable as men.

    11. JR

      But why is different subjugation and why is different incapable, why is different inferior?

    12. DS

      Well, just 'cause there has been a history of there being sexism and-

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. DS

      ... and say, so with, um, the whole Google memo thing-

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DS

      ... um, and this idea that women are biologically, we are different, not to say we're not as capable, but if there are any sort of biological correlates to what women find interesting, could that be extrapolated to capability, extrapolated to women should go back to the kitchen, women aren't good at math, things like that. I, I mean, I get why people don't like biological explanations for things. I think, like you said, I think it's just a lot easier and it's a lazy way to just dismiss the whole thing and say, "You know, we don't need to think about it. Nothing to see here."

    17. JR

      Yeah. Nothing to see here. But it just, it's...... clearly not true in terms of the scientific research. So, th- there has to be some cognitive dissonance in order to accept that and to preach it and to say it, and everybody has to agree upon it, which is one of the reasons why I think any, uh, s- a- any statements contrary to that get aggressively attacked.

    18. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      And this is part of the reason why these ideas are so supercharged.

    20. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      It's that there's, there's a know- there's an understanding that it's horse shit, and so when someone challenges it and says it's horse shit, you've been living your whole life with this horse shit. It's almost like a religious thing.

    22. DS

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, okay, I think some people know what the truth is and they actively lie because they think they're doing something good for women. So they'll say gender's a social construct even though they know it's biological. And I, I think people who are younger, maybe going through school now or being taught this actually don't know the difference and actually believe it.

    23. JR

      But why would they aggressively attack the scientific research that's contrary to that claim, then?

    24. DS

      You mean the people who don't know any better?

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. DS

      Well, they actually believe that gender's a social construct and these scientists are just sexist and misogynistic-

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. DS

      ... and wanna keep women down.

    29. JR

      But, I, I can get that if you didn't research it-

    30. DS

      Mm-hmm.

  11. 35:42 – 52:55

    Race labels, “person of color,” and Harvard’s alleged discrimination against Asians

    1. JR

      Yep. (laughs) Stop doing drugs. Yeah, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. Um, as a neuroscientist, when something like the Google memo comes out, um, you are also a woman and you are also a woman who-

    2. DS

      I'm also a person of color.

    3. JR

      Sort of. Are you?

    4. DS

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      How's that work? You're lighter than me.

    6. DS

      Am I? (laughs)

    7. JR

      Well, you're a different color. I mean, am I a person of color?

    8. DS

      I think you've seen more sun maybe than I have.

    9. JR

      I'm Italian. Well, I don't know.

    10. DS

      You can be an honorary person of color, I'll give you that badge.

    11. JR

      But I'm Sicilian, so-

    12. DS

      Oh, you, so yeah, you are kind of-

    13. JR

      Yeah, but there's, there's... Yeah, somebody in my, in my background got fucked by somebody who was darker, for sure.

    14. DS

      (laughs)

    15. JR

      (laughs) But I don't know how that works, 'cause if I was Cuban, I would look exactly the same and I definitely could be a person of color.

    16. DS

      Yeah. I mean-

    17. JR

      All right?

    18. DS

      ... I just, I think it's ridiculous. I can't stand that term, for the record, person of color, because those of us who are not white, we don't all think the same, but we all get lumped in as, you know-

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. DS

      ... having some sort of, uh...

    21. JR

      Well, I had a conversation with a friend of mine about that, who's Mexican. He was talking about Latinos. And I go, "Well, you do know that..."... Italian was one of the original Latin languages.

    22. DS

      Hmm.

    23. JR

      Like I am Latino-

    24. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JR

      ... if you look at it that way.

    26. DS

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      Like what is Latino?

    28. DS

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      Like you're just thinking if it was only Spanish, that's not really the technical definition of it.

    30. DS

      Yeah.

  12. 52:55 – 1:01:24

    Google memo and ‘Wrongspeak’: media smears, taboo research, and speech control

    1. DS

      Yeah. Let's, you were saying something about the Google memo earlier though.

    2. JR

      Yes. Yeah, that's a, I mean I had James on and, you know, he's kind of fucked now. He doesn't really have a home, he doesn't have a place to go and I mean in terms of like, like-

    3. DS

      Politically.

    4. JR

      ... politically or in terms of having a job. I mean, he's like almost unhireable.

    5. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JR

      I mean, uh, I don't know if he's employed now, but he's in this lawsuit with Google.

    7. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JR

      And scientifically he has every point in the world.

    9. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      I just don't know if it's ever going to hold up in this climate.

    11. DS

      Yeah. So I actually got a chance to talk to James, uh, as part of, so there's a podcast, Wrongspeak, that I host with Jonathan Kay, and our first episode was actually about James Damore and his saga and basically how, what I took away from that whole thing, I mean it's a- been almost a year now, it's amazing how the media could not get it right and I feel that they intentionally smeared him. It wasn't that people didn't understand the science or that, they very intentionally said, "We don't like this. We want to get clicks or we want to basically sacrifice this man for our agenda."

    12. JR

      I agree with you and I don't think it's just the media. I think it was the CEO of, was it YouTube that was saying that it was pr- promoting harmful st-

    13. DS

      I think it was the V-

    14. JR

      ... gender stereotypes.

    15. DS

      ... the VP of Google put that statement out.

    16. JR

      Yes.

    17. DS

      But other people have, yeah.

    18. JR

      But one of the, the, one of the women that ran YouTube was talking about it too and the way she was describing it was a- as if he was talking about women being inferior.

    19. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JR

      And that's not what he said at all.

    21. DS

      That's not what he said.

    22. JR

      And not only that, they neglected to f- to promote the fact that it was at least a page and a half of that memo was about how to encourage women-

    23. DS

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      ... to be more active in tech.

    25. DS

      Yeah.

    26. JR

      This was not an anti-women's creed.

    27. DS

      No.

    28. JR

      It was-

    29. DS

      No, and I mean if you hear what he had to say when I spoke with him, he very much was for equality and very much was for men and women being-... working together, you know, and it's ... He's not a misogynist. I think it's crazy that that's the narrative that continues to go on now.

    30. JR

      Well, the problem is, he actually sty- uh, he actually cited the studies that showed why people choose different professions.

  13. 1:01:24 – 1:08:13

    Rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD): adolescent girls, peer influence, and clinical constraints

    1. JR

      Explain rapid onset gender dysphoria, because I'm not really aware of that.

    2. DS

      So it's this phenomenon that's been growing more recently bef-

    3. JR

      How recently?

    4. DS

      I'd probably say in the last 10 years, there's been a switch. So before, uh, referrals to gender clinics of kids who are feeling that they were born the opposite sex was predominantly boys, and then suddenly, there's been this explosion of girls. And so when you talk to the parents, um, and it's interesting, when, when you listen to the episode that we did, their stories are so similar. They're literally identical. They, their daughters have always been gender typical, so they were always very girly girls. They've never been gender dysphoric. They go through puberty, they develop, you know, there's no problem there. And then usually what happens is there's some sort of, I don't know, educational session at school or one of these girls, their friends come out as trans, and then the daughter says, "Oh, I, I want to be a boy." And so if you take that child to a professional, like a therapist, the therapist has to affirm. The therapist can't question that. And so you have these girls, and a lot of them have autism or they have other mental health issues. They're not getting treated for those issues. Instead, they're being told, "Okay, if you want to transition, w- we'll help you." And like I said, I'm not against adults transitioning. I, I don't think i- it's anyone's place to tell an adult what to do, and I think transitioning can be beneficial. But you want this... You... If someone transitions, you want it to actually help them feel better. And for these girls, if the issue is not even about gender, it doesn't make sense for them to transition.

    5. JR

      Now, this rapid onset gender dysphoria, is this typically females?

    6. DS

      Yeah, almost all females.

    7. JR

      Why? What, what is the cause of that?

    8. DS

      I think it's social contagion. I think part of it is for some of these girls, they are, you know, a bit socially awkward, and so when they come out as transgender, suddenly everybody loves them and wants to support them. And I, I think as people should for trans people, because obviously it's a difficult thing to go through, but I, I think there's an aspect of it that people aren't talking about, that kids are coming out as transgender just because it gives them acceptance.

    9. JR

      An extra reward.

    10. DS

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      There's a reward in terms of the attention they get.

    12. DS

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      Wow.

    14. DS

      And also, I think for girls, I mean, puberty is not a fun time. Puberty's not a fun time for anybody, but for girls-

    15. JR

      Well, I wouldn't know.

    16. DS

      (laughs)

    17. JR

      Um, for girls.

    18. DS

      You didn't go through puberty? Okay.

    19. JR

      I did.

    20. DS

      Okay.

    21. JR

      I did. But I, I mean, you know, for, like, I love when people say, "Well, it's, it's harder for guys." How the fuck would you know? You've never been a girl. (laughs)

    22. DS

      I think it's hard for everybody.

    23. JR

      It's-

    24. DS

      Everyone is kind of awkward and lanky, you know?

    25. JR

      Life is hard.

    26. DS

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      Life is weird. You know, being a person, being a finite organism clinging to a ball that's spinning 1,000 miles an hour, hurtling through infinity, that's weird.

    28. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JR

      Life's weird.

    30. DS

      Yeah.

  14. 1:08:13 – 1:50:48

    Outrage culture, #MeToo complexities, and workplace consent & power dynamics

    1. JR

      Like, this Scarlett Johansson thing-

    2. DS

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      ... was fascinating.

    4. DS

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      She was gonna play a trans woman in a movie and people freaked out-

    6. DS

      A trans man, I think.

    7. JR

      A trans man, sorry. A trans man in a movie and people freaked out that she, uh, is not trans and she's, she has this part. You know, that was the same thing that happened with Jeffrey Tambor.

    8. DS

      Oh, yeah.

    9. JR

      Jeffrey Tambor was accused of sexual harassment by people on the set who are trans who were also very upset that he was the star of a television show-

    10. DS

      Right.

    11. JR

      ... that was about trans people and he's not trans.

    12. DS

      Right.

    13. JR

      And they were trans.

    14. DS

      I get where people are coming from. I do, because, you know, they ... I think representation is important to some extent. And so I can understand-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. DS

      ... if you are of a group that isn't being f- uh, represented in the media, how you would want that to change.

    17. JR

      Yeah, but you're also looking at an A-list actress who would bring an incredible amount of attention to your progressive project.

    18. DS

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    19. JR

      And, you know, it may very well change the tone of the way people accept trans people.

    20. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      Like, if it's portrayed in a positive light, it's entirely possible that it would open up ... Like, especially f- people that are on the fence, it might open up their heart and make-

    22. DS

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      ... make them look at things differently and say, "Oh, okay, I see where this woman wanted, you know, she, she wanted to transition to be a man because she was wired incorrectly or wired to be a man."

    24. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JR

      I shouldn't even say incorrectly. Like, maybe I, you could see her as a person now instead of just as a, uh, uh, a subject for debate.

    26. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      Or as a, a, you know ...

    28. DS

      Well, I f- the only fear I would have is not, not with your point, but with my point, with the tokenization of people. So to say, "Okay, if this is a trans role, we need to find a trans person."

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. DS

      You know, same as with racial tokenization, like, we need to have a certain quota so we need to have this me- number of people that fit this. That's my only issue, because then people look at it and say, "Oh, you only picked this person because of their identity, not because of what they brought to the table."

Episode duration: 3:09:47

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