Joe Rogan Experience #1147 - Dr. Debra Soh

Joe Rogan 0:01 Five, four, three, two, one. (claps) Hello, Dr. Soh.

Dr. Debra Soh 0:08 Hi.

Joe Rogan 0:09 What's happening? Pull this sucker-

Dr. Debra Soh 0:11 I'm good.

Joe Rogan 0:11 ... about a fist from your face. There you go.

Dr. Debra Soh 0:12 Is that good?

Joe Rogan 0:13 Yeah, perfect.

Dr. Debra Soh 0:14 All right.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it.

Dr. Debra Soh 0:15 Thank you for having me.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Uh, I've watched a bunch of your videos. I've listened to a bunch of your talks, read a bunch of your work. Y- very interesting person.

Dr. Debra Soh 0:23 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 0:24 And this is a good time for a person like you. Things seem to be kind of scrambled.

Dr. Debra Soh 0:27 (laughs) A little bit, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:29 It's a little topsy-turvy out there these days.

Dr. Debra Soh 0:30 Yeah, a little bit crazy.

Joe Rogan 0:32 So you're a sex neuroscientist? Is that an accurate description?

Dr. Debra Soh 0:36 Yeah, I'm a former academic sex researcher. Uh, my PhD is in sexual neuroscience research, and now I work as a science journalist and a columnist.

Joe Rogan 0:44 And why former?

Dr. Debra Soh 0:46 Because the climate in academia has changed so much. Like you mentioned how things are topsy-turvy, but that's pretty much how you can describe academia nowadays, even in the hard sciences.

Joe Rogan 0:57 Yeah, it's, um, it's getting a little weird. What do you attribute it to?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03 I think it's a combination of things. I think it's, uh, particular ideologies coming in and taking over, but they've been there for a while, but I think it's th- that- that they've reached the mainstream. I see it as political correctness running amok, and I see it as legitimate researchers not being able to speak out because they've got enough on their plate with their research, their teaching, they've got their students, you know, they're super busy. And then on top of it, they don't want to deal with the mobbing that will inevitably happen if they do speak out. So things are kind of in favor right now of the craziness.

Joe Rogan 1:35 But it's fascinating though, uh, as an outsider, to watch the craziness.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:39 I bet. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:40 T- yeah, it's a, I mean, I'm glad I don't have to be in school right now and, and deal with it, but to watch it from the outside, it's just so interesting.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:48 Interesting in what way, though?

Joe Rogan 1:49 Well, because it's almost like there's a sort of a delusional aspect to it, like a, uh, an agreed-upon delusional aspect.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:58 It's like, like the gender one in particular, g- the gen- gender is very strange right now.

Dr. Debra Soh 2:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04 Like, um, there's, uh, there's first of all, the LBGTQIA... What else?

Dr. Debra Soh 2:13 Et cetera, et cetera. Oh my God, there's-

Joe Rogan 2:15 Is there more-

Dr. Debra Soh 2:15 ... there's-

Joe Rogan 2:15 ... are there more?

Dr. Debra Soh 2:15 ... there are tons, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:16 They're adding more to it.

Dr. Debra Soh 2:17 They keep adding more, yeah, to be more inclusive.

Joe Rogan 2:19 You okay, Jamie?

Jamie Vernon 2:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:20 Something going on?

Jamie Vernon 2:20 The focus is fucked up.

Joe Rogan 2:22 Oh. Well, what's going on?

Jamie Vernon 2:23 It's all right. I got it.

Joe Rogan 2:24 All right. I thought maybe we were down again.

Jamie Vernon 2:28 Nope, nope.

Joe Rogan 2:28 Um, yeah, it just... But gender in particular, one of the things that I said about, uh, one of the more bizarre things about today's political climate is that people selectively agree with science.

Dr. Debra Soh 2:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:42 Like when it comes to clim- climate change-

Dr. Debra Soh 2:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:44 ... like, everybody is like pro-science, like science all the way.

Dr. Debra Soh 2:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:48 Look at the studies.

Dr. Debra Soh 2:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:49 Even when they don't even understand the studies, like there's a, a famous... And you know, uh, you get in trouble when you bring up Tucker Carlson.

Dr. Debra Soh 2:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:57 Because people go, "Oh, you're a Tucker Carlson fan." I'm, I'm just, as a human being-

Dr. Debra Soh 3:01 I'm not gonna get mad.

Joe Rogan 3:02 ... he made, he made some very good points with Bill Nye. He had Bill Nye on, they were talking about science, and he said, "Okay, if human beings are responsible for climate change, what percentage? What are the numbers?" Like... And Bill Nye really isn't a scientist, he's a science, um, uh, b- you know, what would you call him?

Dr. Debra Soh 3:20 Personality, he does have media personality.

Joe Rogan 3:22 Yeah. He's a guy who's, uh, you know, he's, um, a promoter of science, but not really necessarily a scientist. So he's, he doesn't, he's doesn't have long term study and research to climate change, he's just sort of on there in a slightly arrogant way saying things that I agree with.

Dr. Debra Soh 3:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:40 Like, what I agree with is that human beings are responsible, at least in part, with climate change.

Dr. Debra Soh 3:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:44 This is what all the research points to.

Dr. Debra Soh 3:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:46 But when Tucker Carlson was pressing him on it, he really didn't have any answers for it. So it's one of those things where like people on the left will blindly support science in one way. (phone ringing) Is that you or me? Dang it. If it's me, I'm gonna be very upset with myself.

Jamie Vernon 3:59 It's me, I'm a loser.

Dr. Debra Soh 3:59 Don't think it's me. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:01 Um, but then when it comes to gender, you watch his show.

Dr. Debra Soh 4:07 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:07 He's got this wacky show on Netflix-

Dr. Debra Soh 4:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:09 ... where they're, they're singing songs about gender can be fluid and gender can be this and-

Dr. Debra Soh 4:14 Mm-hmm. There's more than two.

Joe Rogan 4:15 Yeah, there's more than two genders, which he didn't use to say.

Dr. Debra Soh 4:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:18 If you go back to one of his earl-

Dr. Debra Soh 4:19 I r- I did see that.

Joe Rogan 4:20 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 4:20 There was an older episode where they clearly say that gender is binary.

Joe Rogan 4:24 Yeah, this is like way back before all this nuttiness sta-

Dr. Debra Soh 4:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:27 So it's influencing people who are in the kn- like people are deciding instead of supporting science and supporting the research on actual human beings as a biological organism.

Dr. Debra Soh 4:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:41 Instead, we're going with this bizarre politically cor- correct climate, which inclines people to this weird delusional thinking. And as an outsider, that's what's interesting to me, to watch all this.

Dr. Debra Soh 4:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:53 Like look at the scrambling, look at this weirdness.

Dr. Debra Soh 4:56 (sighs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:56 You know?

Dr. Debra Soh 4:56 It's hypocritical. It definitely is, and it's, it's interesting to see. I mean, say the March for Science, I attended that, not this past year, but the year before, so people are there, they're super excited about science, pro-science, I think science is great.

Joe Rogan 5:07 Sure.

Dr. Debra Soh 5:08 All this money should go to science. And you ask them, "Okay, so you're so f- you're down for climate change being real, but what about science now by the left?" And I asked so many people this while I was there because I was reporting on it for playboy.com. And, um, it's amazing, people get very uncomfortable. They don't want to, they don't want to say anything about... I would consider myself to be a liberal, but definitely liberals don't want to think about themselves being science deniers. And when you look at how people talk about gender now and biological sex differences in the brain, even biology more generally, people get very defensive, they get angry almost, and they, they find it threatening for some reason, which I, I don't understand. And that's a, a big part of my work is to say I think we can acknowledge that these facts exist and that biological science is legitimate. That doesn't mean that sexism is okay, we're not saying that women are inferior or anything like that.

Joe Rogan 5:56 Exactly. That's the big point about all this, right? Is that we're not saying that p-... anyone's inferior. We're just not the same thing.

Dr. Debra Soh 6:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:05 This is what the big problem, is th- they try to say, uh, I mean, I, I certainly think we should all have equal rights. But we're not equal in terms of what we are. We're a different, we're, and it's not that we're not equal like one's better.

Dr. Debra Soh 6:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:17 It's just like saying a wolf is not equal to a cheetah. They're fucking different things.

Dr. Debra Soh 6:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:22 And males and females are different things.

Dr. Debra Soh 6:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:25 And this is, this is clear when you study us as an organism. You know, I had a really bizarre conversation once with a guy who's a professor or former professor. And w- he was trying to deny that there d- there's a difference between men and women.

Dr. Debra Soh 6:40 It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 6:41 And one of the things I said, I said, "Okay, you get a dog, uh, do you ask is this a boy dog or a girl dog?"

Dr. Debra Soh 6:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:47 And then he, he got like real weird.

Dr. Debra Soh 6:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:49 Because there's really no answer to that.

Dr. Debra Soh 6:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:51 Like it's, it's a fucking boy dog. You want a boy dog, right?

Dr. Debra Soh 6:54 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:54 Is it a, a non-binary dog?

Dr. Debra Soh 6:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:56 Like what is your dog?

Dr. Debra Soh 6:57 Or it might change its mind tomorrow, right?

Joe Rogan 6:59 Is your dog gender-fluid?

Dr. Debra Soh 7:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:00 Like what is gender-fluid?

Dr. Debra Soh 7:02 Well, it's this idea that you can be one gender one day, another gender the other day, or it might cycle through the day, or-

Joe Rogan 7:08 Doesn't-

Dr. Debra Soh 7:09 ... even you're a mix of both.

Joe Rogan 7:10 That seems like if it was anything else, you would have to be fucking crazy, right? If it was anything else.

Dr. Debra Soh 7:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:17 If like, if you decided, "Well today I'm African."

Dr. Debra Soh 7:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:19 "Well, tomorrow I'm Chinese."

Dr. Debra Soh 7:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:21 You know, "Oh, today, uh, I'm tall. Tomorrow I'm short. Today I'm a pixie. Tomorrow I'm a wood elf."

Dr. Debra Soh 7:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:26 Like-

Dr. Debra Soh 7:26 But I think everybody is, we don't have to call it something like gender-fluid. Everyone is a mix of male and female, right?

Joe Rogan 7:32 Sure.

Dr. Debra Soh 7:32 Like you have people that are maybe more typically masculine or more typically feminine, but even still, there, there's n- I don't think there are many people that are 100%-

Joe Rogan 7:40 No.

Dr. Debra Soh 7:40 ... one way or the other.

Joe Rogan 7:41 No. Well, what does that even mean? I mean, people are clearly more masculine than other people, but does that mean that the people like, you know, let's pick a person, Bill Nye.

Dr. Debra Soh 7:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:51 Does that mean he's not a man?

Dr. Debra Soh 7:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:52 He's clearly a man.

Dr. Debra Soh 7:53 Exactly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:54 He's clearly a man. He's not a LeBron James, but he's a man.

Dr. Debra Soh 7:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:58 You know, there's, there's, there's obviously a spectrum.

Dr. Debra Soh 8:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:01 But-

Dr. Debra Soh 8:01 I almost feel like that way of thinking is more old-fashioned, because this is all about being progressive and open-minded. But I think if someone is a man, but is maybe more female-typical, to say that this person is a different category of gender, or that they're m- I don't know, not male, to me, that's more stereotypical. You know what I mean? I think it's, it's not progressive to say, "If you're a mix of both, you must be something different."

Joe Rogan 8:22 Well, you're not necessarily a mix of both, right? You just have a different hormonal profile.

Dr. Debra Soh 8:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:26 A different, uh, it's, uh, different body type, different, I mean t- people vary so much that, I mean, I think w- having some sort of categories to say, "Oh, this is a male and this is a female," it seems like it's pretty beneficial.

Dr. Debra Soh 8:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:44 I mean, uh, although we vary so widely inside those categories, to pretend that those categories don't exist just seems so weird. We would never do that with any other organism.

Dr. Debra Soh 8:53 Mm-hmm. And it's a lot of work too. You see these companies going and they're trying to be more kind of with the times, I guess.

Joe Rogan 9:00 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 9:00 And they're, everything is gender-neutral now. And I'm thinking, all of that money and time is being wasted when I don't think that does anything for, for women or sexism. If you-

Joe Rogan 9:09 No.

Dr. Debra Soh 9:09 ... changed, instead of addressing someone by ladies and gentlemen, you say people, is that really gonna stop sexism?

Joe Rogan 9:15 I-

Dr. Debra Soh 9:15 It just makes people mad 'cause then-

Joe Rogan 9:17 I-

Dr. Debra Soh 9:17 ... they have to change the way they talk.

Joe Rogan 9:18 I put up a, a, a story on Twitter the other day about people that are raising their kids with they and them.

Dr. Debra Soh 9:24 I saw that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:25 They're calling them theybies instead of babies.

Dr. Debra Soh 9:27 Yeah. Fun, fun times. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:28 (laughs) What the fuck is that?

Dr. Debra Soh 9:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:30 Like, uh, I just ...

Dr. Debra Soh 9:32 I think it's coming from a, for some parents, it's coming from a good place.

Joe Rogan 9:35 Yes.

Dr. Debra Soh 9:35 Like they obviously want the best for their kids and they don't wanna limit the kid in terms of what they might be interested in. And I think because the media is telling them if you let girls play with dolls, that's terrible and they're gonna end up, you know, not having any sort of prospects when they grow up in terms of their jobs or, I don't know, it's such a terrible thing to be female-typical nowadays. But I mean, like you mentioned, it's biology that's gonna dictate what your kids play with. And then in other cases, I think it's parents that want to be special.

Joe Rogan 10:01 Well, it's also weird because if your son is trans, it's totally fine-

Dr. Debra Soh 10:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:07 ... for him to be female-typical.

Dr. Debra Soh 10:08 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Like it's celebrated.

Dr. Debra Soh 10:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:10 Like if you have a trans son and he likes wearing lipstick and short-

Dr. Debra Soh 10:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:14 ... skirts and prancing around, then he's fabulous.

Dr. Debra Soh 10:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:17 Like there was a, a boy, uh, in New York and there was this whole thing about he's the youngest ever drag queen.

Dr. Debra Soh 10:23 Yeah, I saw that.

Joe Rogan 10:23 And, and everybody's going crazy. And people were angry about it, you know, some-

Dr. Debra Soh 10:27 He was being exploited.

Joe Rogan 10:27 Yeah. Some people were angry and saying he's being exploited by his parents, and some people thought it was wonderful-

Dr. Debra Soh 10:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:34 ... that this kid was so expressive when he's so young. And then other people said, had, had a good point, they said, "Well, it's, uh, it's very sexualized." Like how is this any different than someone who's in a beauty pageant like a-

Dr. Debra Soh 10:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:44 ... JonBenét Ramsey type situation-

Dr. Debra Soh 10:46 Well, if it was a-

Joe Rogan 10:47 ... when they're really young.

Dr. Debra Soh 10:47 ... if it was a little girl, people would be up in arms-

Joe Rogan 10:50 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 10:50 ... saying that it's sexist and that it's the patriarchy. But that little boy, so I don't know that he's trans, I believe that he just likes to ... Like, like a, a man who's a drag queen is just a man, it's usually a gay man who likes to-

Joe Rogan 11:02 Right.

Dr. Debra Soh 11:02 ... dress up, you know, like an extreme form of femininity. I love drag queens. But I think that little boy is likely gonna grow up to be a gay boy. If you have a little boy who says he's a girl and you see a lot of these trans girls, if they were left alone and they didn't transition, they would likely, research shows they would grow up to be gay men.

Joe Rogan 11:20 Is that ... Yeah. I mean, I'm 100% for freedom.

Dr. Debra Soh 11:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:25 Right? So I'm 100% for you being able to do whatever you want to do. The real question becomes when people are trans and young, it's, uh, how much, how much of this is gonna pass?

Dr. Debra Soh 11:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:39 And how much of this are you going to stop from ever passing because you're going to inject your body filled with hormones? Like, uh, are you giving yourself the opportunity just to decide to become a gay man versus become a woman?

Dr. Debra Soh 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:51 And would you be happier either or?

Dr. Debra Soh 11:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:53 You know? I mean, it's very, very tricky.

Dr. Debra Soh 11:55 But you can't even have that conversation now-

Joe Rogan 11:57 Right, you can't.

Dr. Debra Soh 11:57 ... 'cause that's considered transphobic.

Joe Rogan 11:59 Right.

Dr. Debra Soh 11:59 What it is is homophobic though, that you can't consider that some of these kids just might be gay children.

Joe Rogan 12:04 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 12:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:06 But then the, the gender fluid one, I was reading this article about this guy who varies by the day.

Dr. Debra Soh 12:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:12 He ... In, like, in the day, like, he'll-

Dr. Debra Soh 12:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:14 ... have periods of stress where he'll switch over to a woman. There was actually, um, a Radiolab podcast-

Dr. Debra Soh 12:19 Okay.

Joe Rogan 12:19 ... where they interviewed a person that has this same issue. And, um, the person was clearly abnormal-

Dr. Debra Soh 12:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:27 ... in the way they communicated and the way they thought. Th- it wasn't like you were dealing with some guy that you would trust with your taxes.

Dr. Debra Soh 12:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:34 You know what I mean?

Dr. Debra Soh 12:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:34 It was like, the dude was wacky, and then now he's a chick, and now he's back to being a guy again.

Dr. Debra Soh 12:39 Okay.

Joe Rogan 12:39 And, uh-

Dr. Debra Soh 12:40 So he actually transitioned?

Joe Rogan 12:41 In mid-conversation.

Dr. Debra Soh 12:43 Like, physically?

Joe Rogan 12:44 No, I don't know. I didn't see it-

Dr. Debra Soh 12:46 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:46 ... 'cause I was just listening.

Dr. Debra Soh 12:47 Okay. Okay.

Joe Rogan 12:48 But he's like, "Well, now I'm Peter again."

Dr. Debra Soh 12:50 Oh, I see what you mean. I see. Okay.

Joe Rogan 12:51 Not Wendy, you know? (laughs)

Dr. Debra Soh 12:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:52 Like, what the fuck?

Dr. Debra Soh 12:53 Hi, Wendy.

Joe Rogan 12:54 Well, it's ... I don't know how much of that is indulgent.

Dr. Debra Soh 12:58 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:58 I mean, I don't want, I don't wanna say, "I know how you feel."

Dr. Debra Soh 13:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:02 But I do wanna say, "Hey, are you fucking crazy?"

Dr. Debra Soh 13:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:06 I- is this cr- are we just, are we just indulging crazy people and how do-

Dr. Debra Soh 13:09 Pathology.

Joe Rogan 13:09 Right. I do believe there are people that are trans. I absolutely believe that there-

Dr. Debra Soh 13:14 I do as well. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:14 Yeah. That there are women that, uh, really are wired the wrong way and they should be men, and there's men that're wired the wrong ... It only makes sense.

Dr. Debra Soh 13:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:21 It only makes sense.

Dr. Debra Soh 13:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:23 But I do also think there's people that are crazy. There's people that have legit mental illness.

Dr. Debra Soh 13:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:30 They're delusional and they're also very susceptible to influence and very susceptible-

Dr. Debra Soh 13:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:37 ... to, you know, someone persuading them that they are one thing or another thing. Look, it's those, like, Heaven's Gate cult people-

Dr. Debra Soh 13:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:47 ... who cut their balls off and wore the Nikes and decided to kill themselves-

Dr. Debra Soh 13:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:50 ... when the comet was near.

Dr. Debra Soh 13:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:52 Remember that?

Dr. Debra Soh 13:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:53 That's not normal.

Dr. Debra Soh 13:54 No.

Joe Rogan 13:54 Right? It's not normal for someone to be able to talk, talk you into cutting your balls off-

Dr. Debra Soh 13:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:58 ... or putting on the purple sneakers, or killing yourself-

Dr. Debra Soh 14:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:00 ... when the comet's close-

Dr. Debra Soh 14:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:01 ... because there's a spaceship waiting that's gonna take you to Xenu or wherever the fuck you're going. Right? That's not normal either.

Dr. Debra Soh 14:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:07 So we know that people are subject to very irrational behavior under the influence of other people's suggestions or other people's, you know-

Dr. Debra Soh 14:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:14 ... persuasion.

Dr. Debra Soh 14:15 Yeah, definitely.

Joe Rogan 14:16 And this is a thing today where you have to wonder, like, how many of these people are legitimately trans, how many of these people are legitimately dealing with, like, a real mental issue that's causing them to shift from male to female and back again? And why is it that we can't ask these questions?

Dr. Debra Soh 14:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:35 'Cause why is it that even this question right now, I could be accused of being transphobic for asking-

Dr. Debra Soh 14:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:41 ... how many of these people are ill.

Dr. Debra Soh 14:43 Yeah. Well, both of us are gonna be accused of transphobia after this.

Joe Rogan 14:46 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 14:46 Yeah. I mean, I would agree with that. I do think that gender dysphoria is a legitimate phenomenon, and I do have a lot of empathy for people who are suffering. And I think for adults, they should be allowed to transition if that's what they decide to do, if that's something that will help them feel better. My issue's with the kids. Uh, it's ... I don't think it's appropriate for children to be transitioning, and I can talk a bit more about why. But I think in terms of the pathology aspect, I think for ... Because gender is so trendy right now. And in the past, you might have seen this kind of pathology manifest in a different way, but now because everyone is saying gender is the way to express, you know ... I, I think people also see, if you have a problem in your life, they think it's gender-related. So say with someone with a personality disorder and people like a lot of attention, they like to, um ... It's always about them and their identity, and their identity shifts a lot.

Joe Rogan 15:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 15:35 So it, this could very well be what it is, and now they're being basically rewarded for that.

Joe Rogan 15:39 Yeah, that's the issue, right? That y- y- you're dealing with incredibly indulgent people, which do exist.

Dr. Debra Soh 15:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:45 And they, then they find this pathway-

Dr. Debra Soh 15:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:47 ... to massive amounts of attention.

Dr. Debra Soh 15:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:49 You know? I mean, this is ... I, I had to construct a bit to mock Caitlyn Jenner. I had-

Dr. Debra Soh 15:55 I saw it.

Joe Rogan 15:55 But it was a very complicated bit.

Dr. Debra Soh 15:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:57 Like, I had to figure out how to do this.

Dr. Debra Soh 15:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:59 I was like, o- obviously this is nonsense and foolish, but I don't want to appear cruel.

Dr. Debra Soh 16:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:03 So what is a way to do this? So my way was to mock myself mercilessly-

Dr. Debra Soh 16:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:08 ... and which is kind of true. Like, I really do have three daughters, and I really do get brutalized in my house. Like-

Dr. Debra Soh 16:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:14 ... I really do think they chip away at my manhood. It's kind of a joke. But, I mean, it really is, it's all girly in my house. My fucking house is so girly. Everyone's girly. They're always talking about girly shit. It's kind of-

Dr. Debra Soh 16:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:25 ... hilarious.

Dr. Debra Soh 16:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:26 But the joke was that if my manhood was a mountain of marbles, every day, they'd take two marbles.

Dr. Debra Soh 16:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:33 They'd just take one.

Dr. Debra Soh 16:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:34 Be like, "You don't even need these."

Dr. Debra Soh 16:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:35 These are ... What do you care? God." And then that I'm not gonna go out like Bruce Jenner.

Dr. Debra Soh 16:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:41 And that one d- (laughs) that one day that they ... And so I had to concoct this whole thing that they were demons, which is how they conjured up all that money.

Dr. Debra Soh 16:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:48 Like, how else would they have hundreds of millions of dollars through no discernible reason?

Dr. Debra Soh 16:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:53 There's no, there's no way you could, like, explain to someone how they made so much money if they didn't understand our culture.

Dr. Debra Soh 16:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:59 It would be totally irrational, right?

Dr. Debra Soh 17:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:01 So the idea was that, that they did this. But w- why I did it was ... I, I wanted to sort of mock this thing that was happening where you got a male Kardashian.

Dr. Debra Soh 17:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:11 That's what he is. I mean, this ... And who doesn't believe in gay marriage, who decides he's a woman, which I firmly believe he's trans. I'm not, not denying that at all. But our obsession with it and rewarding him with ungodly amounts of attention.

Dr. Debra Soh 17:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:27 This motherfucker won the gold medal-

Dr. Debra Soh 17:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:31 ... okay? In the decathlon. Was it decathlon? Was, right? Yeah. I mean, he was on the cover of Wheaties.

Dr. Debra Soh 17:36 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:36 I mean, he was a fucking US superstar athlete, and then no attention after that. He was the whipping boy of the Kardashians on their TV show. They mocked him. It's like, here's this one person with fucking talent-

Dr. Debra Soh 17:50 Well, Rob too.

Joe Rogan 17:50 ... in your whole house.

Dr. Debra Soh 17:50 Don't they mock Rob a bit? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:52 Yeah, 'cause he's fat.

Dr. Debra Soh 17:53 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:53 But then they go right to that he becomes a woman-

Dr. Debra Soh 17:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:58 ... and now he is the toast of the town.

Dr. Debra Soh 18:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:00 He wins Woman of the fucking Year.

Dr. Debra Soh 18:03 Yeah, I remember that.

Joe Rogan 18:03 He's a woman for six months and he wins Woman of the Year. He wins ESPN Athlete of the Year. He hasn't been an athlete in fucking decades-

Dr. Debra Soh 18:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:11 ... since Nixon was president, right?

Dr. Debra Soh 18:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:13 Or Carter. Who was it? Either way.This is madness.

Dr. Debra Soh 18:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:17 Like this is ... We're, we're, we're not treating this in a balanced way, where we are rewarding people that instead of like, because people are so ... They're, they're, they're, they're so ready to proclaim their progressiveness and so excited about it that they, instead of like, instead of treating them like as an equal-

Dr. Debra Soh 18:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:41 ... they, they go completely the other way.

Dr. Debra Soh 18:44 Beyond, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:44 So they're definitely not prejudiced. They're definitely not discriminating against them, but they're absolutely inflating what this person is.

Dr. Debra Soh 18:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:56 And, and they're making it a big giant deal that they're trans. Like it's great to support people. I would like to live in a world where there's no racism at all-

Dr. Debra Soh 19:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:05 So you could mock everyone equally.

Dr. Debra Soh 19:07 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:07 Like this is my big problem with real racism. There's a lot of dummies in every race-

Dr. Debra Soh 19:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:13 But you gotta be real careful picking on some dummies, like especially if you're a white male.

Dr. Debra Soh 19:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:18 Straight white male oppressor, you know.

Dr. Debra Soh 19:21 You guys are the devil nowadays. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:22 The devil. Especially if you look like me.

Dr. Debra Soh 19:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:25 I mean, I look like the devil. So this is a, this is a real problem with like looking at things in a balanced perspective-

Dr. Debra Soh 19:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:32 ... because you're not allowed to.

Dr. Debra Soh 19:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:34 You're not allowed to. Like even what you said earlier, you said gender dysphoria.

Dr. Debra Soh 19:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:38 You know, that's considered transphobic.

Dr. Debra Soh 19:40 Yeah, you can't even say that anymore, even though that is a legitimate medical condition.

Joe Rogan 19:44 Yes.

Dr. Debra Soh 19:44 It's con- Because they, some people see it as you pathologizing being the way someone feels, I guess. But in my mind, I don't think the issue is patho- the pathology. I think it's fine to acknowledge there are certain things. Like any, any medical condition that causes you distress and impairment, that's, that's the definition of a psychiatric diagnosis. So you should be able to recognize that. It's not a bad thing. I think the bad thing is the stigma that comes along with having a mental disorder.

Joe Rogan 20:10 Yes.

Dr. Debra Soh 20:10 So that's what should be fought, it's the stigma aspect, not calling something a mental disorder. If someone's, if someone's really suffering, that's not a good thing.

Joe Rogan 20:18 No, no, it's not a good thing. And also the denial of these conditions and the denial of the science behind these conditions.

Dr. Debra Soh 20:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:25 This is the issue with, with progressive people today.

Dr. Debra Soh 20:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:28 Is that there's certain things where they embrace science and certain things where they deny it. And in gender-

Dr. Debra Soh 20:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:33 ... gender, in particular, seems to be so hotly contested and I don't know when this happened. It seems to have happened right in front of our face, like it just came out of the ground like, like a-

Dr. Debra Soh 20:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:44 ... a plant that was growing in the cracks.

Dr. Debra Soh 20:46 And now it's too late. You try to stomp it out and it won't go away. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:48 It's weird. I'm, I'm wondering, I'm wondering where the, the sh- Like I didn't see this coming.

Dr. Debra Soh 20:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:54 And, uh, it's, it's fascinating to see.

Dr. Debra Soh 20:57 Yeah. I think feminism is part of it, the mainstream aspect of this really far-left feminism. I used to call myself a feminist. I don't anymore just because the things that people used to say feminism stood for, like hating men, being, uh, I don't know, just on-

Joe Rogan 21:12 But they don't say that. No, no one says-

Dr. Debra Soh 21:13 Well, they do. Some of them do. They s-

Joe Rogan 21:15 Do they say that?

Dr. Debra Soh 21:16 They, they say they hate men. Oh, yeah. I have friends who say ... Male friends who say to me, "Oh, my female friend said that men are trash. Is that normal?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:23 Well, there's a woman that I know that's a feminist that has on her, uh, her Twitter account, it says, "Trust no man." Like just openly proclaiming that.

Dr. Debra Soh 21:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:33 Well, if you're straight, good luck.

Dr. Debra Soh 21:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:36 Good luck with your life-

Dr. Debra Soh 21:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:37 If you're saying, "Trust no man."

Dr. Debra Soh 21:39 But imagine if you said it about women, you know, trusting-

Joe Rogan 21:40 That would be a terrible thing.

Dr. Debra Soh 21:42 Yeah, that would be ... That'd be awful as well.

Joe Rogan 21:43 Yeah, you'd be a misogynist.

Dr. Debra Soh 21:45 But it's acceptable to hate on men now.

Joe Rogan 21:47 Well, nobody criticizes misandry, you know. It just ... It's not something that is, that gets brought up.

Dr. Debra Soh 21:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:53 I've never ... I've never even said that word before. I've only written it and said it or written it and heard it.

Dr. Debra Soh 21:58 I mean, I get it. I do. I think feminism at the core had some good aspects in the beginning, but it's just gone off the rails more recently.

Joe Rogan 22:05 Well, equality has great aspects.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:08 But I think the problem with any like ... White power is obviously awful, right?

Dr. Debra Soh 22:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:15 You say white power. Well, you're, you're ... What you mean is you're racist against other races, you're into white people.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:21 But brown power's okay. Brown pride's okay, right? Okay.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:26 Well, now, nowadays they see it that way, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:28 Male pride is not good.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:30 Not okay.

Joe Rogan 22:30 Not okay. But girl pride-

Dr. Debra Soh 22:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:32 ... is fine.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:33 Girl power is okay.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:34 It's f- It's fucking weird.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:36 Because you're, you're, you're generalizing. You're lumping yourself into a group of people just because you all have vaginas. That seems insane.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:43 And the thing is, women are ... We don't all think the same.

Joe Rogan 22:45 No.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:45 But the minute you as a woman say something that goes against girl power, they will descend on you.

Joe Rogan 22:50 Yes, I've seen that too. Well, it's like you're threatening the collective agreed-upon narrative.

Dr. Debra Soh 22:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:57 And you are ... It's like, like the way girls treat sluts.

Dr. Debra Soh 23:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:02 Girls get very mad if a girl just decides to have sex with as many people as, as she wants.

Dr. Debra Soh 23:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:08 Because then you're fucking up this whole economy of co- controlling the narrative of when women decide to or not decide, yes.

Dr. Debra Soh 23:16 The value of sex goes down that way too.

Joe Rogan 23:18 Yes.

Dr. Debra Soh 23:18 But-

Joe Rogan 23:18 Which is why prostitution's illegal.

Dr. Debra Soh 23:20 Yeah. I see both sides. I see some women, which I, which I find interesting because I think it's confusing for young women now who are starting to date and they think, "I don't really want to have casual sex, but I'm being told that's what I should do." And-

Joe Rogan 23:31 Is that what they're being told?

Dr. Debra Soh 23:33 I think so. I think that-

Joe Rogan 23:34 By who?

Dr. Debra Soh 23:34 By the media, more like it's empowering to go out and sleep with as many people as you want and to be like a man. Like if you look at college campuses and, and how there's quite a bit of casual sex going on, and I don't think that's for everyone. I think from an evolutionary perspective too, women don't like that as much.

Joe Rogan 23:50 Hmm. I was talking to a friend of mine today about this, uh, who's in the military.

Dr. Debra Soh 23:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:55 And he was saying what's crazy about certain branches of the military is you have like 100 men-

Dr. Debra Soh 24:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:01 ... to one women. To one woman.

Dr. Debra Soh 24:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:04 And this one woman th- Especially like if they're deployed and there's ... They have the pick of the litter, and they'll just fuck a gang of dudes. (laughs) And... (laughs)

Dr. Debra Soh 24:13 At the same time?

Joe Rogan 24:14 I would never talk to ... I've never thought about it that way before, but he was like, y- you know, "Well, everybody just sort of agrees that nobody has this one girl."

Dr. Debra Soh 24:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:22 Like that nobody is gonna own her.

Dr. Debra Soh 24:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:25 And that, you know, she can have sex with as many guys as she wants. So like, the, what he was saying is like, at least in his experience, that the whole dynamic of male-female relationships shift.

Dr. Debra Soh 24:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:36 And these girls can basically date as many of these guys as she wants.

Dr. Debra Soh 24:41 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:41 It's kind of interesting.

Dr. Debra Soh 24:42 And they don't shame her for that?

Joe Rogan 24:44 Well, they can't-

Dr. Debra Soh 24:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:45 ... because there's only one.

Dr. Debra Soh 24:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:46 It's like (laughs) -

Dr. Debra Soh 24:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:47 ... they don't want her to get angry at them.

Dr. Debra Soh 24:49 True.

Joe Rogan 24:49 It's like, I didn't talk to him about it a lot. We only sp- spoke about it for like 10 minutes, but I was like, this is, that's kind of crazy. I never even thought about that dynamic-

Dr. Debra Soh 24:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:57 ... like that, that sort of a scenario where there's 100 men and one chick.

Dr. Debra Soh 25:00 That's a lot of men.

Joe Rogan 25:01 That's a lot of men.

Dr. Debra Soh 25:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:03 Good luck with all that.

Dr. Debra Soh 25:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:03 You'd get sore.

Dr. Debra Soh 25:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:05 And you'd be like annoyed, like, be like, "P- can you leave me alone?"

Dr. Debra Soh 25:08 Well, how much-

Joe Rogan 25:08 And you'd go to sleep.

Dr. Debra Soh 25:09 How much time does she have, you know?

Joe Rogan 25:10 How much time does she have?

Dr. Debra Soh 25:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:12 Yeah. Especially if you're in the military, you've got tasks.

Dr. Debra Soh 25:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:15 There's things you need to do.

Dr. Debra Soh 25:16 You'd be tired.

Joe Rogan 25:17 Yeah. But it's, the dynamics shift according to like what is available and who's there-

Dr. Debra Soh 25:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:26 ... and, and what kind of a, a culture you live in. People adapt, are very malleable to-

Dr. Debra Soh 25:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:31 ... different climates and different cultures and the way people treat sex and don't treat sex. And this is when I think what, what happens is people tend to react, uh, very aggressively or very strongly when someone is doing something that is different than the way they're doing things, because this would possibly indicate that there's another way or maybe their way is wrong-

Dr. Debra Soh 25:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:56 ... or may... You know, there's, it's just... And especially when it comes to sex-

Dr. Debra Soh 25:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:59 ... people get very strange.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:00 Yeah. Oh, they do.

Joe Rogan 26:01 Like when people find out that people are in open relationships.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:04 Like I have a good friend of mine who's in an open relationship, and it's so fascinating to watch all the people, "You let guys fuck your girlfriend, bro?"

Dr. Debra Soh 26:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:12 And he has to sort of discuss it-

Dr. Debra Soh 26:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:14 And I guess this is, it's not comfortable for me. I wish I enjoyed it.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:17 I don't enjoy it.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:18 So why do they have an open relationship?

Joe Rogan 26:20 I don't know. I mean, you'd have to talk to him about it. I mean, he's got a bunch of different answers.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:24 I think the main answer is he wants to fuck other people and she wants to fuck other people, and so they just decided to do it that way.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:30 Okay.

Joe Rogan 26:30 And they were together in a monogamous relationship for a, for a while, but I think, uh, if I'm correct, I think they've been in an open relationship longer than they were in a monogamous relationship.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:40 How long were they monogamous for?

Joe Rogan 26:41 I would have to ask him, I think.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:44 Okay.

Joe Rogan 26:44 More than a year.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:45 Okay.

Joe Rogan 26:45 You know, maybe two years or something like that.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:46 And then it's been like four years of open.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:48 Okay. Wow. Yeah, I mean, open relationships are actually pretty common. Uh, consensual non-monogamy, there's one study that showed one in five Americans have actually tried it. So it's pretty common.

Joe Rogan 26:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 26:58 Me personally, I'm monogamous, but I think, you know, people should do what they want to do if it's consensual. I think, you know, obviously having been a sex researcher and now someone who writes about sex research for a living, I'm very sex positive, and I think a lot of the problems that we see and a lot of the suffering and distress and issues that people have in their lives could be solved if our world was more sex positive and we could just talk about sex like anything else.

Joe Rogan 27:21 Right. Like, the shame of it is the real problem, right?

Dr. Debra Soh 27:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:24 And this is what I'm saying, uh, that people, when you're living a life that's different than the way they're living their life, they, people get very aggressive about it.

Dr. Debra Soh 27:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:33 Same way y- I mean, sober people tend to get aggressive about people who enjoy drinking or people who enjoy smoking pot or-

Dr. Debra Soh 27:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:42 ... taking mushrooms or something. They, they get very shitty about it sometimes.

Dr. Debra Soh 27:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:45 And it's because it's, it's very polar, very, very opposite of the way they're living their life, and they don't want to see anybody living their life in a very different way but also being happy. They think, "Well, this is not how I do it, and this is in contrary to my values."

Dr. Debra Soh 27:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:59 "So you must be doing something wrong."

Dr. Debra Soh 28:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:00 "Oh, you need alcohol to get by? Is that what you need?"

Dr. Debra Soh 28:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:02 "You need to..." Like, "Oh, you don't need that drink." I don't... But I want it.

Dr. Debra Soh 28:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:06 Can I just have it?

Dr. Debra Soh 28:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:07 If I have a glass of wine, I get happy.

Dr. Debra Soh 28:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:09 Who's, who's getting hurt here?

Dr. Debra Soh 28:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:10 And be like, "You're gonna start doing heroin, then you're gonna wind up in the gutter." I, I never have.

Dr. Debra Soh 28:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:15 Never been on heroin, never been in the gutter.

Dr. Debra Soh 28:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:17 Been alive for a while. Nothing's happened.

Dr. Debra Soh 28:20 It could, it could be a bit of projection too, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:21 For sure.

Dr. Debra Soh 28:22 I think for someone who's dealt with, uh, substance issues, the, the fear that, you know, it could be easy for someone else to fall down the same hole.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Right. But it's this thing that people living a different way-

Dr. Debra Soh 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:33 ... is somehow or another threatening-

Dr. Debra Soh 28:35 Unacceptable.

Joe Rogan 28:35 ... unacceptable and threatening to their perceptions of what, what you should be doing with your life.

Dr. Debra Soh 28:41 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:42 Yeah. And I think, I mean, a- this is very unrelated to the whole... I mean, but it's not. It's, wh- when it comes to gender, um, I think there's just this thing that people, people want things to be more easily explained than they are.

Dr. Debra Soh 29:01 Yeah, that's true. I could see that. Because it takes a lot of work to actually go. So people who say that gender's a social construct.

Joe Rogan 29:07 That's a good one.

Dr. Debra Soh 29:08 Sounds very nice.

Joe Rogan 29:09 I love saying that.

Dr. Debra Soh 29:10 It's not. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:10 Start saying that for no reason at all.

Dr. Debra Soh 29:11 It's not true, but it's infuriating because it's everywhere now. Like, this is what children are being taught in school up in Canada. That's what they're being taught in their curriculum, and there's absolutely no truth to it at all. But I mean, if you read the scientific studies, you cannot come away from them saying, "Gender's a social construct." There's absolutely none.

Joe Rogan 29:30 What's the argument for it? Like, if you were arguing for it?

Dr. Debra Soh 29:34 That, uh ... I guess the h- the idea is that women should be i- equal. And obviously, as a woman, I believe that, and so any sort of subjugation of women must somehow be imposed by society. Because if we acknowledge that women are different biologically in any way, that's gonna be used as justification why they don't deserve to be treated the same as men or they're not as capable as men.

Joe Rogan 29:55 But why is different subjugation and why is different incapable, why is different inferior?

Dr. Debra Soh 29:59 Well, just 'cause there has been a history of there being sexism and-

Joe Rogan 30:02 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 30:03 ... and say, so with, um, the whole Google memo thing-

Joe Rogan 30:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 30:06 ... um, and this idea that women are biologically, we are different, not to say we're not as capable, but if there are any sort of biological correlates to what women find interesting, could that be extrapolated to capability, extrapolated to women should go back to the kitchen, women aren't good at math, things like that. I, I mean, I get why people don't like biological explanations for things. I think, like you said, I think it's just a lot easier and it's a lazy way to just dismiss the whole thing and say, "You know, we don't need to think about it. Nothing to see here."

Joe Rogan 30:36 Yeah. Nothing to see here. But it just, it's...... clearly not true in terms of the scientific research. So, th- there has to be some cognitive dissonance in order to accept that and to preach it and to say it, and everybody has to agree upon it, which is one of the reasons why I think any, uh, s- a- any statements contrary to that get aggressively attacked.

Dr. Debra Soh 30:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:00 And this is part of the reason why these ideas are so supercharged.

Dr. Debra Soh 31:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:05 It's that there's, there's a know- there's an understanding that it's horse shit, and so when someone challenges it and says it's horse shit, you've been living your whole life with this horse shit. It's almost like a religious thing.

Dr. Debra Soh 31:16 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, okay, I think some people know what the truth is and they actively lie because they think they're doing something good for women. So they'll say gender's a social construct even though they know it's biological. And I, I think people who are younger, maybe going through school now or being taught this actually don't know the difference and actually believe it.

Joe Rogan 31:34 But why would they aggressively attack the scientific research that's contrary to that claim, then?

Dr. Debra Soh 31:43 You mean the people who don't know any better?

Joe Rogan 31:44 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 31:44 Well, they actually believe that gender's a social construct and these scientists are just sexist and misogynistic-

Joe Rogan 31:49 Right.

Dr. Debra Soh 31:49 ... and wanna keep women down.

Joe Rogan 31:50 But, I, I can get that if you didn't research it-

Dr. Debra Soh 31:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:53 ... if you didn't look into it. But once you start looking into it, you go, "Oh, wow, this is weird." Like there's clearly... I mean, there's-

Dr. Debra Soh 31:59 Do you think people actually look into it though? I don't think they do. The sense I get is they, they find someone or some journalist who has, has some sort of decent sounding criticism of the literature and they just parrot that.

Joe Rogan 32:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 32:11 I don't think they actually go and look at the studies.

Joe Rogan 32:14 Well, I think there's part of... There's definitely something to that, and I think there's something to this problem that human beings have, um, where they, they have an idea and that idea becomes a part of their identity.

Dr. Debra Soh 32:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:25 And then they start arguing for that idea, and any argument against that idea is an argument against them as a person.

Dr. Debra Soh 32:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:33 'Cause they're trying to win.

Dr. Debra Soh 32:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:35 They're not necessarily looking at things in an objective way where they're detached from the idea and studying it as a thing. Instead, they're arguing to try to win.

Dr. Debra Soh 32:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:46 And I think that is a giant problem with ideas. And it's-

Dr. Debra Soh 32:49 Yeah, 'cause they're invested in it.

Joe Rogan 32:50 Yes. And, uh, it becomes even more of a problem when it gets tribal, when these ideas are attached, like climate change, clearly attached in denial to the right and support to the left. It's this very strange tribal thing.

Dr. Debra Soh 33:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:07 And that also happens with gender.

Dr. Debra Soh 33:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:09 And it also... Like, if you are in support of, of women's rights and you are, uh, in support of trans rights and LBGTQ and all that jazz, you're almost 100% gonna be on the left.

Dr. Debra Soh 33:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:21 It's just one of those tribal things. If you're pro-choice, you're almost always going to be on the left. If you're not, you find yourself in that... Which one was it? Was it Tammy Lahren? I get her confused with that Lauren Southern girl. Those girls-

Dr. Debra Soh 33:32 Oh, Tomi Lahren.

Joe Rogan 33:33 Those girls are interchangeable in some strange way, those, the, the, the hot Republicans.

Dr. Debra Soh 33:38 Ta- Tomi Lahren, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:39 Tomi Lahren.

Dr. Debra Soh 33:40 She's pro-choice.

Joe Rogan 33:41 Right, she got attacked.

Dr. Debra Soh 33:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:43 Can't be.

Dr. Debra Soh 33:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:44 Can't be. You wanna be on this team. You wanna be on the, the mean white girl team. You can't be pro-choice. (laughs) You gotta, you gotta be pro-life.

Dr. Debra Soh 33:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:52 What about life? What about the babies?

Dr. Debra Soh 33:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:54 Support the ba- Y- You know what I'm saying? It's like some ideas get locked into ideologies. They get locked into these tribal ideologies, and, uh, gender is most certainly one of those.

Dr. Debra Soh 34:05 Well, 'cause people don't wanna be without a political home.

Joe Rogan 34:08 Right, that's a very good way of putting it.

Dr. Debra Soh 34:09 'Cause if you do, say, say someone like Tomi, T- uh, Tomi who's-

Joe Rogan 34:14 Why do I call her Tammy?

Dr. Debra Soh 34:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:16 Because I'm an asshole?

Dr. Debra Soh 34:18 There she is.

Joe Rogan 34:18 Oh, was she in trouble? Tomi Lahren will star in pro-life film after the bra- The Blaze fired her for being pro-choice. What?

Dr. Debra Soh 34:27 So if you're a pro-choice conservative or if you're a pro-biology liberal, you know, you kind of find yourself in a weird in-between.

Joe Rogan 34:33 So she's just f- fucking going the other way? She's going the other way? She's gonna star in a film? What's a pro-life film? It's like a ABC after school special. Don't have an abortion, have your baby.

Dr. Debra Soh 34:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:47 Whew. Yeah. Hmm. It's weird. Well, she's gotta get her ground back.

Dr. Debra Soh 34:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:51 She's getting kicked off the team a little bit.

Dr. Debra Soh 34:53 Yeah.

Jamie Vernon 34:53 It's a biopic on the Roe versus Wade case starring Stacey Dash.

Joe Rogan 34:56 Oh.

Jamie Vernon 34:57 So.

Joe Rogan 34:58 So maybe she's playing a bad person in that movie.

Jamie Vernon 35:01 That sounds... That just made it even more interesting.

Joe Rogan 35:07 Strange. I wonder how many of those things are just distractions. You know, it's so weird. People are so weird with their, their, their tribal identities.

Dr. Debra Soh 35:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:19 You know, I, I just... And I love when they go back and forth and shift from one side to the other. I love it when like, "Well, I'm a former conservative, seen the light," or, you know-

Dr. Debra Soh 35:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:29 ... "I used to be a liberal till the party lost me."

Dr. Debra Soh 35:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:32 I love that, and then they go hardcore on the other side.

Dr. Debra Soh 35:35 It's weird 'cause it's e- then everything shifts. It's not just-

Joe Rogan 35:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 35:37 ... a couple of views, it's everything-

Joe Rogan 35:39 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 35:39 ... to be in alignment with the other side.

Joe Rogan 35:40 Yeah, they j- join a church.

Dr. Debra Soh 35:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:42 Yep. (laughs) Stop doing drugs. Yeah, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. Um, as a neuroscientist, when something like the Google memo comes out, um, you are also a woman and you are also a woman who-

Dr. Debra Soh 35:57 I'm also a person of color.

Joe Rogan 35:59 Sort of. Are you?

Dr. Debra Soh 36:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:00 How's that work? You're lighter than me.

Dr. Debra Soh 36:02 Am I? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:03 Well, you're a different color. I mean, am I a person of color?

Dr. Debra Soh 36:06 I think you've seen more sun maybe than I have.

Joe Rogan 36:08 I'm Italian. Well, I don't know.

Dr. Debra Soh 36:10 You can be an honorary person of color, I'll give you that badge.

Joe Rogan 36:12 But I'm Sicilian, so-

Dr. Debra Soh 36:13 Oh, you, so yeah, you are kind of-

Joe Rogan 36:15 Yeah, but there's, there's... Yeah, somebody in my, in my background got fucked by somebody who was darker, for sure.

Dr. Debra Soh 36:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:21 (laughs) But I don't know how that works, 'cause if I was Cuban, I would look exactly the same and I definitely could be a person of color.

Dr. Debra Soh 36:28 Yeah. I mean-

Joe Rogan 36:29 All right?

Dr. Debra Soh 36:29 ... I just, I think it's ridiculous. I can't stand that term, for the record, person of color, because those of us who are not white, we don't all think the same, but we all get lumped in as, you know-

Joe Rogan 36:36 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 36:37 ... having some sort of, uh...

Joe Rogan 36:38 Well, I had a conversation with a friend of mine about that, who's Mexican. He was talking about Latinos. And I go, "Well, you do know that..."... Italian was one of the original Latin languages.

Dr. Debra Soh 36:48 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:48 Like I am Latino-

Dr. Debra Soh 36:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:50 ... if you look at it that way.

Dr. Debra Soh 36:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:51 Like what is Latino?

Dr. Debra Soh 36:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:53 Like you're just thinking if it was only Spanish, that's not really the technical definition of it.

Dr. Debra Soh 36:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:57 Isn't Latino... I mean, am I correct about that? I mean, doesn't it emanate from a Latin language?

Dr. Debra Soh 37:02 Think so.

Joe Rogan 37:03 I think so too.

Dr. Debra Soh 37:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:04 But it's just like Italians have been so ingrained in our culture, they came over so long ago-

Dr. Debra Soh 37:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:09 ... that like, you know, my grandparents came here in the '20s so that, that's a 100 years ago almost. So-

Dr. Debra Soh 37:14 So it doesn't count anymore.

Joe Rogan 37:15 Doesn't count anymore, you're not really discriminated against anymore.

Dr. Debra Soh 37:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:18 It's like Jews-

Dr. Debra Soh 37:19 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:19 ... used to be... It's, what's interesting is like you, if you follow boxing history, and I know you're a martial artist, you follow boxing history, the oppressed early immigrants are almost always the best boxers at the time.

Dr. Debra Soh 37:32 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:32 And for a while there was a lot of Jewish boxers.

Dr. Debra Soh 37:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:35 A lot of Italian boxers, of course. You know, Rocky Graziano and Rocky Marciano and all these Italian... And then it became, uh, Cubans and Puerto Ricans and then, then it became... Well, there was always Blacks as well.

Dr. Debra Soh 37:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:47 But this, like immigrants in particular, Irish-

Dr. Debra Soh 37:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:50 ... like a lot of the Irish immigrants early on, they were thought of as like being some of the lowliest of the low.

Dr. Debra Soh 37:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:56 And now Irish people are a 100% white, like no one even thinks about it.

Dr. Debra Soh 38:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:00 Of course they're white, but I mean they're, they're just American, like-

Dr. Debra Soh 38:04 That's gonna be Asians soon, we're gonna be a 100% white basically. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:07 Well, not if Harvard has anything to do with it.

Dr. Debra Soh 38:09 No, true. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:10 They're trying to kick you guys out.

Dr. Debra Soh 38:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:11 What is it about... Not trying to kick you guys out, but that is one of the weirder discriminations that has somehow or another slipped under the radar, that they're making it more difficult for Asians to get into Ivy League universities because you guys do so well.

Dr. Debra Soh 38:24 Yeah, I mean it, uh, uh, it's racism, that's all it-

Joe Rogan 38:27 It's fucking-

Dr. Debra Soh 38:28 That's all it is.

Joe Rogan 38:28 ... 100% racism.

Dr. Debra Soh 38:29 It's racism and I think some of these people who are getting pats on the back for being progressive, about being diverse, I think they just don't like us and then now they have a, you know, politically acceptable way to do it.

Joe Rogan 38:40 But why is that? Why would they not like Asians?

Dr. Debra Soh 38:42 Well some people just don't, some people are racist. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:44 But is it that or is it that you guys do too well?

Dr. Debra Soh 38:48 Well that's the thing, I mean we throw that whole narrative into question, this idea that if you're not white you must, uh, you, you can't be doing well in life, you can't pull yourself up and get on with things.

Joe Rogan 38:59 Yeah, well that was the argument against the Charles Murray book.

Dr. Debra Soh 39:03 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:03 What was that book?

Dr. Debra Soh 39:04 The Bell Curve.

Joe Rogan 39:04 Yes.

Dr. Debra Soh 39:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:05 One of the problems with that book is people were showing the differences in IQ, um, b- by... You know, as it varies across different geographical, uh, segments and across races and if anything, that book is really like a testament to the master race of Asians.

Dr. Debra Soh 39:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:26 Like even... But for real, right? Like Asians-

Dr. Debra Soh 39:28 We do okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:29 But genetically like Asian people seem to be superior when it comes to IQ according to that book.

Dr. Debra Soh 39:36 I think we just work really hard and we-

Joe Rogan 39:38 Hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 39:38 Our culture puts a lot of emphasis on education. So-

Joe Rogan 39:42 Have you... Did you read The Talent Code? Have you read that book?

Dr. Debra Soh 39:44 No, I haven't.

Joe Rogan 39:45 It's a really interesting book. Um, I'm finishing it up right now, but one of the things about it is it sort of dismisses the idea of talent.

Dr. Debra Soh 39:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:51 And it shows, it goes into depth about all the d- Not dismisses it but shows that it's not some magic gift that's bestowed upon people, but what it is is it shows all the pathways that lead to the skill developments that we consider talent-

Dr. Debra Soh 40:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:07 ... and discipline and hard work, in particular discipline being a culturally enforced thing-

Dr. Debra Soh 40:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:14 ... which is, it is with many Asians. I mean I often talk about my friend, Jung Sik, who when I was doing Taekwondo he was on the US team, while he was also in his residency in medical school.

Dr. Debra Soh 40:26 Wow.

Joe Rogan 40:26 This guy was a fucking animal. I'd, I never met anybody in my life who worked as hard as him, he always looked exhausted.

Dr. Debra Soh 40:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:33 This is his face all, all the time. He just was always tired but then-

Dr. Debra Soh 40:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:37 ... would go to work like a fucking savage.

Dr. Debra Soh 40:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:39 Was in between studying for his, uh, d- do... You know, in the middle of, uh, medical school and he would put his backpack on filled with books and run the stairs at, at the university. He's fucking crazy.

Dr. Debra Soh 40:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:53 But it's, this is... And I, when I would talk to him about it, you know, 'cause my parents were not like that and his parents were like s- My parents were hippies and they were like, "Do whatever the fuck you want, we don't care," and his parents were like, "You must be a doctor."

Dr. Debra Soh 41:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:07 And he was like telling me about the kind of discipline that he grew up with and that culturally enforced discipline leads many, many, many, many, many people to succeed.

Dr. Debra Soh 41:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:17 Whereas, you know, the sort of latchkey kids that I grew up with, there was no, there was no culturally enforced discipline. You either developed it on your own, you pursued something that you enjoyed and figured out how to become disciplined or you just weren't.

Dr. Debra Soh 41:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:32 You know? But this thing that's in Asian cultures is what's propelling them forward. If you, you know, subscribe to all the different things that are being brought up in this book, The Talent Code.

Dr. Debra Soh 41:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:45 And it makes sense-

Dr. Debra Soh 41:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:46 It only makes sense that-

Dr. Debra Soh 41:47 But I think it should be seen as a positive thing that, you know, everyone is capable, it's not just a particular race or a particular group of people that can be successful. I mean my issue with the whole thing with the Harvard lawsuit is that why are Asians being punished for doing well essentially?

Joe Rogan 42:03 Will you explain the lawsuit for people who don't know what we're talking about?

Dr. Debra Soh 42:05 Okay. So it turns out that for decades now Harvard has been discriminating against Asians, uh, and requiring them to have higher SAT scores than people of other ethnic backgrounds in order to get the same chance of admission. And then more recently it's been shown that, okay, so Asians do well with SAT scores, uh, they do well with extracurricular activities, so the only way that admissions committees can actually penalize them is through rating their personality. So seeing them as, you know, less likable, things like that because they're subjective and, uh, you know, I find it amazing that very few liberal outlets have covered this. Um, the New York Times has been one, uh, but outside of that it's been very few and it's really disappointing and no one is... I mean I wrote about this for The Globe and Mail and I was amazed no one had heard about this story at all.

Joe Rogan 42:51 Wow.Well, not only that, even when it was covered in the New York Times, everybody was like, "Hmm. Okay."

Dr. Debra Soh 42:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:56 It's-

Dr. Debra Soh 42:56 Let's go on with our day.

Joe Rogan 42:57 It's gone.

Dr. Debra Soh 42:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:57 Like, in and out.

Dr. Debra Soh 42:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:59 Whereas, if it was in, about any other subject or any other r- race or gender that's being discriminated against... I mean, if it was discrimination against Black people-

Dr. Debra Soh 43:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:08 ... in the same, like, systematic way-

Dr. Debra Soh 43:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:11 ... or systemic way-

Dr. Debra Soh 43:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:12 ... it would be outrageous.

Dr. Debra Soh 43:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:14 People would go crazy.

Dr. Debra Soh 43:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:15 And even more insane that you're doing it to the most successful people.

Dr. Debra Soh 43:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:23 The most successful in terms of academics because that's the problem, right?

Dr. Debra Soh 43:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:27 The problem is-

Dr. Debra Soh 43:27 I mean, it's not helping society either.

Joe Rogan 43:29 No.

Dr. Debra Soh 43:29 I mean, if, if I were not Asian, I would be saying the same thing. I don't think it makes sense to take people who are doing well and hold them back.

Joe Rogan 43:35 No.

Dr. Debra Soh 43:35 If you, if you want your society to do well, I think the solution would be to help people who are not doing as well. Don't penalize the people who are doing well.

Joe Rogan 43:42 Well, I think there's a fear of Asians-

Dr. Debra Soh 43:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:45 ... in this, in this... And d- and I'm not bullshitting. And one of the... I've been obsessed with, uh, this company Huawei-

Dr. Debra Soh 43:51 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:51 ... recently. And H- well, I got obsessed with them for two reasons. One, because I read an article about, um, the superiority of these cell phones that they're producing that are not being accepted in America. And so, then, I started doing... Uh, I'm kind of a dork when it comes to, like, cell phones and technology. I'm very fascinated by them, so I read a lot of articles about Huawei phones.

Dr. Debra Soh 44:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:16 And, uh, they have these fucking insane Leica cameras with 40 megapixel lenses-

Dr. Debra Soh 44:21 Wow.

Joe Rogan 44:21 ... and three lenses on the front and 20-plus megapixel selfie cameras and, like, really intense technology. Much more, much higher gigabytes, like f- I think they have 500-gigabyte, um, storage capacity.

Dr. Debra Soh 44:36 Wow.

Joe Rogan 44:37 4,000 milliamp batteries. Like, they're, they're superior batteries.

Dr. Debra Soh 44:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:40 It's a superior phone.

Dr. Debra Soh 44:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:42 And I'm looking, I'm like, "Wow, this is kind of crazy." And then it turns out you can't sell them in the United States and the, the, the federal government's blocked these carriers from having them, and they're saying it's because the Chinese government is involved in, uh, stealing information and, and hacking and all this different stuff. I'm like, "Okay. All right."

Dr. Debra Soh 45:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:02 "Maybe." But what... But it's kind of fucking weird that you can't figure out whether or not a phone is being used to, like... How are these hackers, how are these, like, super genius people who program phones, you can't, like, look at one of those phones and s- and figure out what it's doing?

Dr. Debra Soh 45:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:16 Is it, like, doing some magic or somehow or another it's stealing people's information and there's no mechanism that you can detect?

Dr. Debra Soh 45:22 Well, do you think there's another reason why they're not letting them in then?

Joe Rogan 45:25 But this is what I'm worried about-

Dr. Debra Soh 45:27 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 45:27 ... is that they're scared that these companies, which are fanatical, maniacal in their, uh, uh, aggressive pursuit of dominance in the cell phone markets and technology in general, are gonna take over.

Dr. Debra Soh 45:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:40 And they're gonna squash all these American companies.

Dr. Debra Soh 45:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:43 And I was like, "How much..." I w- I mean, this is my own personal speculation, but I'm looking at this, I'm like, "How much of, uh, how m- uh, much legitimacy is in that?" 'Cause they're, right now, worldwide, I believe they're the number three cell phone manufacturer. I think it's Samsung, Apple, and then Huawei.

Dr. Debra Soh 45:59 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:00 But you can't buy Huawei phones in America.

Dr. Debra Soh 46:02 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:02 And I'm wondering.

Dr. Debra Soh 46:03 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:04 We're scared of the Chinese taking over.

Dr. Debra Soh 46:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:06 Dun, dun, dun.

Dr. Debra Soh 46:07 Are you, are you gonna try and get one of these phones anyway?

Joe Rogan 46:09 I did try to get one, but what I found out is they're not, um, they're not set up for the US market. They're GSM phones and I'm on a CDMA network-

Dr. Debra Soh 46:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:19 ... but the GSM phones, they're using different bands. They're not using all the same bands. Like, when you buy a phone from China-

Dr. Debra Soh 46:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:27 ... even if it's for the UK, they don't use... Uh, so if you... There's some places where you would sacrifice coverage. Say if you bought a, uh... And if you're a cell phone genius out there and you listen to me butcher this, I'm so sorry.

Dr. Debra Soh 46:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:40 But this is all I got. What's up? Could you just use it with wifi only and not connect it to the network? Why the fuck would you do that? 'Cause you're in a wifi almost everywhere you are. But I'm talking about as a phone. I know, but- Where's wifi... You're driving your phone. Everywhere. You're getting wifi when you're driving your car? Yeah. How you doing that? Time Warner has wifi all over LA. They have wifi in the air? I mean, it's not... They're probably tracking you, but yeah, definitely. 100%. Okay, so if you're driving in your car, you could be on wifi and have your cell phone service shut off? And your car also... Cars also now have them built into their thing too. There's LTE built into cars. Right, but those are cel- those are cellular. I know, but I'm just saying WiFi. They're cellular wifi. No, it's just a question. Couldn't you also- But that's a cellular wifi, so you'd have to have a cellular account. So, like, who would be your cellular provider? But then you're, then you're just connecting your phone to a wifi thing in your- Right, that's a different thing. ... BMW or Mercedes or whatever. Right, right. So whatever that is- Yeah. ... would be a local thing. So you could use the phone for something. But that... You'd have to be right next to your fucking car to use your phone. That's stupid. What I'm saying is, like, the problem with the... This is, uh, what I... An article that I read- Yeah, yeah. ... that was explaining the problem from... I think it was one of those tech sites. But it was saying that in certain places with limited coverage, you probably would have no coverage-

Dr. Debra Soh 47:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:41 ... with one of these phones, whereas it would work okay if you were in New York or in Los Angeles or Chicago-

Dr. Debra Soh 47:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:46 ... or something like that. But if you went to the boonies-

Dr. Debra Soh 47:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:49 ... w- where you might get... If you have Verizon, you probably could be able to text your friends or get a phone call out, but you wouldn't be able to do it with that phone.

Dr. Debra Soh 47:55 It'd be a lot harder, yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:56 Yeah. It's just not optimized for our networks.

Dr. Debra Soh 47:58 Hmm. Well, hopefully it'll change.

Joe Rogan 48:00 Or not.

Dr. Debra Soh 48:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:01 Or not. They'll just keep squashing them. But I wonder, you know, I mean, the, the problem is I believe they think Huawei is connected with the communist government.

Dr. Debra Soh 48:10 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 48:10 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 48:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:11 Like-

Dr. Debra Soh 48:12 They don't want that.

Joe Rogan 48:12 They're completely integrated, so it's... I mean, the separation of business and government over there is... It's very sketchy, right?

Dr. Debra Soh 48:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:23 The fuck do I know?

Dr. Debra Soh 48:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:24 I'm just... I just wonder if there's a fear of Asian success.

Dr. Debra Soh 48:29 Yeah, I mean...

Joe Rogan 48:31 How could that be though if the Samsung... Samsung is everywhere?

Dr. Debra Soh 48:34 They're... I mean, they're gonna come for everybody, so they're coming for us right now. It's only a matter of time, you know?

Joe Rogan 48:38 Who's they?

Dr. Debra Soh 48:39 (laughs) The people who want equality of outcome for everyone.

Joe Rogan 48:42 Oh.Who are those people?

Dr. Debra Soh 48:45 The people who are really into identity politics.

Joe Rogan 48:48 Do you think the, well I w- I didn't really think that's what was holding back Huawei.

Dr. Debra Soh 48:53 No.

Joe Rogan 48:53 I thought it was the government.

Dr. Debra Soh 48:54 No, I could see that.

Joe Rogan 48:54 The government was worried about them getting too much money and power, the Chinese government.

Dr. Debra Soh 48:57 Yeah, but I guess if you're asking me in terms of my, my view on things and in my experience.

Joe Rogan 49:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 49:02 That's where I would take it.

Joe Rogan 49:03 So, the equality of outcome people, the reason why they're trying to keep Asians or at least limit the number of Asians in co... But doesn't that have the opposite effect? Doesn't that make Asians work even harder?

Dr. Debra Soh 49:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:17 And I mean, i- if you keep them out of Harvard, they're just going to go to Yale. Keep them out of Yale, they're going to go-

Dr. Debra Soh 49:23 I would go, I think Caltech doesn't have numbers like that so at Caltech there are a lot of Asians there because they don't, uh ...

Joe Rogan 49:28 They don't discriminate.

Dr. Debra Soh 49:29 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:30 So they just dominate. So you'd use Caltech as a petri dish?

Dr. Debra Soh 49:33 It could be like a control group.

Joe Rogan 49:34 For Asian dominance?

Dr. Debra Soh 49:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:35 Hmm. But y- what's wrong with that? It's like it doesn't-

Dr. Debra Soh 49:40 Discrimination?

Joe Rogan 49:41 N- no, no, no. The other thing, like w- what's wrong with certain cultures dominating?

Dr. Debra Soh 49:47 I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it, well, I mean if you're asking me in terms of what people see as a problem-

Joe Rogan 49:54 Yes.

Dr. Debra Soh 49:55 I think because it looks as though other groups are not getting a fair chance. It doesn't look, it make, it doesn't make people feel good.

Joe Rogan 50:02 Right. Right, that's-

Dr. Debra Soh 50:02 Right, because it means that you're acknowledging at some level that some people are doing better than other people and that makes some people uncomfortable.

Joe Rogan 50:09 Right, it's the participation trophy world.

Dr. Debra Soh 50:11 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:12 Yeah, the equality of outcome world. Yeah, that's exactly what it is, right? But it's gone to a place where it becomes indefensible. So instead of rais- trying to raise up people whose scores are lower and give them an equa- an equal opportunity-

Dr. Debra Soh 50:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:29 ... or take people from impoverished areas with poor education and give them more of a chance.

Dr. Debra Soh 50:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:33 Which is what affirmative action was supposed to be about.

Dr. Debra Soh 50:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:36 Instead of that, you're doing it from the top down.

Dr. Debra Soh 50:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:40 You're going, "Oh no, no, no, there's too many of these people that are doing good, we got to squash it."

Dr. Debra Soh 50:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:44 We're going to limit their ability. But h- wha- in, how could they do that in good conscience? That's what's crazy, but d- doing it from that perspective, d- doing it like looking at a race that's super successful that is also a minority-

Dr. Debra Soh 50:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:58 ... and saying, "Too many of them."

Dr. Debra Soh 51:01 Well that's the thing, I mean, I think these people do think they're doing something good. They're doing it for the better of society and for these other groups-

Joe Rogan 51:10 I'd like to see that argument.

Dr. Debra Soh 51:10 I'd like to see it too.

Joe Rogan 51:12 Have you ever talked to someone about it that's pro-discrimination against Asians?

Dr. Debra Soh 51:15 I have. After I wrote that column for The Globe and Mail, a number of people came out of the woodwork to tell me how wrong I was. And there were some-

Joe Rogan 51:21 Like white?

Dr. Debra Soh 51:22 No, some Asians too.

Joe Rogan 51:23 Really?

Dr. Debra Soh 51:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:24 What did they say?

Dr. Debra Soh 51:25 They, well to say don't let yourself be used by the far right to justify, you know-

Joe Rogan 51:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 51:30 ... taking down other groups.

Joe Rogan 51:32 Ooh, that's an interesting way of looking at it.

Dr. Debra Soh 51:33 Yeah. So that, I mean, that's one way that you could look at it, but-

Joe Rogan 51:36 How is that way possible to look at it? That doesn't even make any sense. You, how would the far right-

Dr. Debra Soh 51:43 So the far right-

Joe Rogan 51:43 ... gr- latch ahold of the superiority of Asians in academics?

Dr. Debra Soh 51:49 Because there are other racial groups that they don't like, or I guess they dislike more than they dislike Asians.

Joe Rogan 51:53 (laughs)

Dr. Debra Soh 51:53 So they'll use Asians as a way to justify discrimination against those other groups. I don't r- I don't really buy that, but uh-

Joe Rogan 52:01 That's a shit argument.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:02 ... that's one argument I've heard, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:03 That argument sucks. I'd like to sit down with someone with that argument.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:06 That's a stupid argument. That argument doesn't work.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:09 It doesn't work.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:10 But what I find the most sad is there are Asians who are totally fine and they say, "I'm willing to give up my spot for someone else because I think diversity is important." And I think ...

Joe Rogan 52:18 Mm-hmm. That's someone who needs friends.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:21 That's, you need friends so bad you're willing to say that, but that's a virtue signaling thing.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:25 That's one of those-

Dr. Debra Soh 52:26 I hope so. I hope it's virtue signaling-

Joe Rogan 52:27 Oh.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:27 ... and it's not someone who actually thinks that way.

Joe Rogan 52:30 They could actually think that way, but the people who cut their balls off and killed themselves because they thought the comet was coming and the spaceship was behind it, they thought that too.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:38 Yeah, people think all kinds of things.

Joe Rogan 52:40 They think all kinds of things, yeah, and that is one of the main reasons why I wanted to talk to you.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:46 Is that people do think all kinds of things.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:49 And I wanted to, I want, um, you know, I want to talk to neuroscientists and figure out what's happening here.

Dr. Debra Soh 52:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:54 What is it?

Dr. Debra Soh 52:55 Yeah. Let's, you were saying something about the Google memo earlier though.

Joe Rogan 52:58 Yes. Yeah, that's a, I mean I had James on and, you know, he's kind of fucked now. He doesn't really have a home, he doesn't have a place to go and I mean in terms of like, like-

Dr. Debra Soh 53:08 Politically.

Joe Rogan 53:09 ... politically or in terms of having a job. I mean, he's like almost unhireable.

Dr. Debra Soh 53:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:15 I mean, uh, I don't know if he's employed now, but he's in this lawsuit with Google.

Dr. Debra Soh 53:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:21 And scientifically he has every point in the world.

Dr. Debra Soh 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:25 I just don't know if it's ever going to hold up in this climate.

Dr. Debra Soh 53:28 Yeah. So I actually got a chance to talk to James, uh, as part of, so there's a podcast, Wrongspeak, that I host with Jonathan Kay, and our first episode was actually about James Damore and his saga and basically how, what I took away from that whole thing, I mean it's a- been almost a year now, it's amazing how the media could not get it right and I feel that they intentionally smeared him. It wasn't that people didn't understand the science or that, they very intentionally said, "We don't like this. We want to get clicks or we want to basically sacrifice this man for our agenda."

Joe Rogan 54:01 I agree with you and I don't think it's just the media. I think it was the CEO of, was it YouTube that was saying that it was pr- promoting harmful st-

Dr. Debra Soh 54:09 I think it was the V-

Joe Rogan 54:10 ... gender stereotypes.

Dr. Debra Soh 54:10 ... the VP of Google put that statement out.

Joe Rogan 54:12 Yes.

Dr. Debra Soh 54:12 But other people have, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:13 But one of the, the, one of the women that ran YouTube was talking about it too and the way she was describing it was a- as if he was talking about women being inferior.

Dr. Debra Soh 54:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:22 And that's not what he said at all.

Dr. Debra Soh 54:23 That's not what he said.

Joe Rogan 54:23 And not only that, they neglected to f- to promote the fact that it was at least a page and a half of that memo was about how to encourage women-

Dr. Debra Soh 54:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:34 ... to be more active in tech.

Dr. Debra Soh 54:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:36 This was not an anti-women's creed.

Dr. Debra Soh 54:39 No.

Joe Rogan 54:40 It was-

Dr. Debra Soh 54:40 No, and I mean if you hear what he had to say when I spoke with him, he very much was for equality and very much was for men and women being-... working together, you know, and it's ... He's not a misogynist. I think it's crazy that that's the narrative that continues to go on now.

Joe Rogan 54:55 Well, the problem is, he actually sty- uh, he actually cited the studies that showed why people choose different professions.

Dr. Debra Soh 55:06 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:06 Why people gravitate towards different activities and different professions based on gender, and these are s- actual studies. So in, in citing those studies, he cited something that's contrary to this promoted narrative.

Dr. Debra Soh 55:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:21 And that's where he was shot down.

Dr. Debra Soh 55:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:23 Hence the title of your podcast, Wrongspeak.

Dr. Debra Soh 55:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:26 He did wrongspeak, right?

Dr. Debra Soh 55:27 Yeah. He did, yeah. And the thing is, though, the most important aspect of the podcast is that the things that people are saying, there's some truth to it. It's not just crazy, loopy ideas.

Joe Rogan 55:36 Right.

Dr. Debra Soh 55:36 Right? There's, there's truth to it, but for some reason, we still can't say it. And why is that?

Joe Rogan 55:42 I don't know why that is, but, uh, the problem with denial of any facts is that the people that are opposing you now have evidence that you're a loon, right? Like, the ... One of the problems with the left and this really radical, progressive behavior that's in denial of science, is now the right gets to look at the left and go, "Look, these people are out of their fucking mind."

Dr. Debra Soh 56:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:06 "Why do you trust them about abortion?"

Dr. Debra Soh 56:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:08 "Why do you trust them about this? Why do you trust them about climate change? Clearly, they're loons."

Dr. Debra Soh 56:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:14 And this, this is, uh, I mean, this is just weird, toxic tribal behavior.

Dr. Debra Soh 56:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah, because I mean, how can you legitimately deny it? Like you were saying, men and women are different. When you say that, people stop listening.

Joe Rogan 56:27 Right.

Dr. Debra Soh 56:27 They do think you're a crazy person.

Joe Rogan 56:28 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 56:29 And they miss the larger point, because there are some people who will look at that and say, "Okay, men and women are different. That must mean women are not competent." So instead of having this more nuanced argument or discussion about, "We can be different, but that doesn't mean women are incompetent," they just simply say, "You want to say that men and women are the same? So we, you know, we're not even speaking at the same level in that, in that case."

Joe Rogan 56:49 Well, it's so foolish. And it's, um ... Uh, we are ... There's clearly differences between, uh, men and women, and there's clearly differences inside genders. I mean, as human beings vary widely and wildly, and it's one of the more interesting things about us.

Dr. Debra Soh 57:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:07 I mean, it's just-

Dr. Debra Soh 57:07 I think it's a good thing.

Joe Rogan 57:08 It's a fascinating thing. I mean, it's, it's imp- the whole thing has got to go like this.

Dr. Debra Soh 57:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:13 It's got to move around, and the only way it moves around is if everybody's different.

Dr. Debra Soh 57:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:17 If everybody's just a block-

Dr. Debra Soh 57:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:18 ... uh, the same shape, the same density, the same size, like, what is that? That's-

Dr. Debra Soh 57:24 It's boring.

Joe Rogan 57:25 Well, it's not just boring. You're not going to have a competent society. It's not going to work. Like, you need soft and hard. You need both. You need something in between. You need far extreme right to, to polarize and activate the far extreme left. I mean, I really think you need a guy like Trump to get people to be more politically active and more socially active. I think, in many ways, he does the left a service by providing this like ridiculous figurehead of what's possible with ego and greed and, and, and, uh, right wing gone amok.

Dr. Debra Soh 57:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:57 You know, the, the Steve Bannons and the Breitbarts-

Dr. Debra Soh 58:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:00 ... and all that stuff. Like, that stuff empowers the other side, and the good thing about it is, somewhere in the middle is like a balanced, healthy society.

Dr. Debra Soh 58:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:08 And hopefully we'll be able to achieve that someday. But, uh, you g- I mean, this is the argument always, is that you cannot have light without dark.

Dr. Debra Soh 58:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 58:15 You can't have good without evil.

Dr. Debra Soh 58:17 And the pendulum is gonna swing back, hopefully. We're just waiting for that time to happen.

Joe Rogan 58:21 It has to. It always does.

Dr. Debra Soh 58:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:22 I mean, it seems to always do that. I just would hope that with the amount of information that's available today, that we can look at the actual studies that are being done on gender, on sex, on biology, and don't look at it in terms of, you know, don't quantify it in terms of th- this side's better or that side's better. Just look at what fascinating differences.

Dr. Debra Soh 58:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:44 This is amazing, and it's interesting.

Dr. Debra Soh 58:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:46 And there's a lot of dummies that are men, and there's a lot of dummies that are women. They're just dummies.

Dr. Debra Soh 58:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:51 And it doesn't have anything to do with one gender being superior or one gender being inferior.

Dr. Debra Soh 58:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:56 It's just human beings have a lot of variability, and there's a lot of different things that ... A lot of inputs in you developing and becoming a 30-year-old person that happens to be talking to this other 30-year-old person. Your path to get to wherever you are, th- there's so much going on.

Dr. Debra Soh 59:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:16 There's influences in terms of your environment, your education, your, your life experiences, your family, y- your loved ones, your r- There's so much that leads to you being who you are today.

Dr. Debra Soh 59:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:30 And it's really fascinating to study that.

Dr. Debra Soh 59:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:33 But only if you're allowed to actually look at it.

Dr. Debra Soh 59:35 And be honest with it.

Joe Rogan 59:36 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 59:36 Yeah, because there's no point otherwise. If you're just going to keep pumping out, like s- from a research perspective, if you, if you go in ... The only scientists who are gonna look at this stuff now are the people who know what they're gonna find in advance. They're not gonna publish anything that's gonna upset the public. So in my mind, there's no point to even do that kind of research, because that's not actually science, what you're doing.

Joe Rogan 59:54 Yeah, that's really crazy, right? That's where it gets really crazy, where you're not even allowed to do certain kinds of research.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 Or, uh, if you are doing it, you're going to be categorized, "Oh, he's alt-right."

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Or you're, you know, you're a conservative, or you're-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 ... a s- you know, a ... Whatever. Whatever you are.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:12 Bad person.

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 You're a bad person.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 You're, you're wrongspeak.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:16 Yeah, exactly, and I-

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 And so why did you decide to call your podcast that?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:19 Um, I mean, it's, uh, it's a throwback to Orwell, obviously, and 1984-

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:00:23 ... and this idea that by controlling language, we can control, the government can control how people think and what reality is. And what I find interesting is, with the topics we covered, so first episode, we talked to James Damore. Second episode, we talked to Lindsay Shepherd and looked at the whole what happened at Wilfrid Laurier University. Um, and then the third one is rapid onset gender dysphoria, so looking at this trend in adolescent girls.... who come out as transgender even though they've had no previous signs of gender dysphoria. And so with all of them, these t- these issues are all super taboo, and all these people have been mobbed. Um, and in the case of rapid onset gender dysphoria, you see the parents who are being called transphobic for questioning, "Is my daughter really trans?" You know, we're just trying to get at the truth, really. We're trying to understand, you know, why is it we can't talk about these things? Why is it we are in such a situation now that the, the response to any sort of, um, unpopular idea is to be mobbed and to attack people and intimidate them and shut the conversation down? Like, how do we stop that from happening?

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 Explain rapid onset gender dysphoria, because I'm not really aware of that.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:01:28 So it's this phenomenon that's been growing more recently bef-

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 How recently?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:01:32 I'd probably say in the last 10 years, there's been a switch. So before, uh, referrals to gender clinics of kids who are feeling that they were born the opposite sex was predominantly boys, and then suddenly, there's been this explosion of girls. And so when you talk to the parents, um, and it's interesting, when, when you listen to the episode that we did, their stories are so similar. They're literally identical. They, their daughters have always been gender typical, so they were always very girly girls. They've never been gender dysphoric. They go through puberty, they develop, you know, there's no problem there. And then usually what happens is there's some sort of, I don't know, educational session at school or one of these girls, their friends come out as trans, and then the daughter says, "Oh, I, I want to be a boy." And so if you take that child to a professional, like a therapist, the therapist has to affirm. The therapist can't question that. And so you have these girls, and a lot of them have autism or they have other mental health issues. They're not getting treated for those issues. Instead, they're being told, "Okay, if you want to transition, w- we'll help you." And like I said, I'm not against adults transitioning. I, I don't think i- it's anyone's place to tell an adult what to do, and I think transitioning can be beneficial. But you want this... You... If someone transitions, you want it to actually help them feel better. And for these girls, if the issue is not even about gender, it doesn't make sense for them to transition.

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 Now, this rapid onset gender dysphoria, is this typically females?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:02:54 Yeah, almost all females.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 Why? What, what is the cause of that?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:02:57 I think it's social contagion. I think part of it is for some of these girls, they are, you know, a bit socially awkward, and so when they come out as transgender, suddenly everybody loves them and wants to support them. And I, I think as people should for trans people, because obviously it's a difficult thing to go through, but I, I think there's an aspect of it that people aren't talking about, that kids are coming out as transgender just because it gives them acceptance.

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 An extra reward.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 There's a reward in terms of the attention they get.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 Wow.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:24 And also, I think for girls, I mean, puberty is not a fun time. Puberty's not a fun time for anybody, but for girls-

Joe Rogan 1:03:29 Well, I wouldn't know.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:30 Um, for girls.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:31 You didn't go through puberty? Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:03:32 I did.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:33 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:03:33 I did. But I, I mean, you know, for, like, I love when people say, "Well, it's, it's harder for guys." How the fuck would you know? You've never been a girl. (laughs)

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:41 I think it's hard for everybody.

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 It's-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:42 Everyone is kind of awkward and lanky, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:03:44 Life is hard.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 Life is weird. You know, being a person, being a finite organism clinging to a ball that's spinning 1,000 miles an hour, hurtling through infinity, that's weird.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 Life's weird.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 And then the fact that your biology changes and you get inundated with hormones.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:03:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 It's, uh, just the, the life that we live, and then adapting to culture and trying to figure out how to be accepted.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:04:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 And I think that, that certainly plays a part. This rapid onset gender dysphoria, how is this being treated, like in terms of, like, how is this being accepted in academia? How is it being discussed in the literature? And what are, what are the recommendations for what to do about it or descriptions of what it is?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:04:27 Well, there's only been one study so far that's been published because it is such a new phenomenon and because it is so hard to do this work. Because, I mean, people call it a myth. Pretty much anything that counters the transgender narrative is ca- considered hate speech. So i- as a researcher, if you try to do any research on this issue that goes against what trans activists say is acceptable, you know you're gonna get into trouble. So no one wants to touch it. So there's been one study that did show, you know, with girls especially, it's very much about, uh, being influenced by friends within a peer group. I think it was this. There was some crazy high number in terms of the number of girls that will come out as transgender one after the other. So it's real. But I, I mean, I get why people find it, some people find it threatening, because it suggests that maybe trans people aren't really transgender. You know, maybe the way they feel isn't legitimate. But in terms of the way to treat it, there are... These parents are at a loss. I mean, the, the... these girls are not getting treated for the underlying condition. There was one parent we spoke to, he saw nine mental health professionals. Every single one said that your daughter's not transgender, but they couldn't go on the record as saying so. I think only one went on the record as saying so, because they're terrified.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 They're terrified of losing their job. They're terrified of being attacked.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:05:38 Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 I- it's so interesting when you watch the similarities between any r- group that, like, is... that feels that they're being maligned or that are being very defensive about their position and trying to hold strong and aggressively attacking people that are against it.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:05:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 I- in many ways, this sort of behavior is mirrored in the Second Amendment people.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:04 Like, the people that are pro-gun.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Like, if you tried any gun restrictions or any gun legislation or a- any changes in the laws of gun control, they aggressively go after it.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 They, they, they do whatever they can to keep things the way they are now and show how much positive benefits guns have and how-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 ... how many people are saved by guns. And they... But it's this thing besides the gun. Take the gun out of it, and it's this... It's the defense of the idea.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:34 Yeah, it's the ideology.

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 It's like they're committed. Yeah, they're, they identify with being a person who's a gun nut-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:40 ... or a gun supporter or Second Amendment, you know-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 ... freedom-loving, I got a fucking eagle on my back-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 ... you know, that kind of shit.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:47 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 It's like... And it's the same thing with trans people. Like anything against anything, what you're saying, this is impossible.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 This thing that you're talking about, this rapid onset gender dysphoria, being autistic people-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:58 ... that is transphobic.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:06:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 And they, and they get super hyper-aggressive about it instead of saying, "Oh, well, whoever this person is," well, if they're a trans person, instead of saying, "Well, I am legitimately trans, but it's entire po- entirely possible that there's a broad spectrum-"

Dr. Debra Soh 1:07:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 "... of, of human behavior and human thought, and that some of these people have a real issue." And I could see the reward, especially in today's climate.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:07:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 When you look at today's climate-... was, that's a, that would be an interesting study, right? If you look at the climate of today and the support of trans people and the attacking of people that are transphobic-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:07:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 ... and the, the overwhelming social benefit of supporting trans people. And then you look at the rapid onset gender dysphoria and see if they match up.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:07:44 Mm-hmm. Yeah, what you were saying actually, I think the majority of trans people, uh, are not on board with this whole across the board everyone should just transition, but I think it's, it's another case of the vocal minority-

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:07:57 ... saying or shutting down anyone who dares to disagree.

Joe Rogan 1:08:00 Well, b- some trans people get very upset if non-trans people talk about trans people.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:05 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:05 Which is hilarious.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 It's like, what are we supposed to do?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 Supposed to just shut our mouths and let you just run things?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 Like, (laughs) w- I don't know what to do.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 Like, this Scarlett Johansson thing-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 ... was fascinating.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:15 She was gonna play a trans woman in a movie and people freaked out-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:20 A trans man, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 A trans man, sorry. A trans man in a movie and people freaked out that she, uh, is not trans and she's, she has this part. You know, that was the same thing that happened with Jeffrey Tambor.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:32 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 Jeffrey Tambor was accused of sexual harassment by people on the set who are trans who were also very upset that he was the star of a television show-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 ... that was about trans people and he's not trans.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 And they were trans.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:44 I get where people are coming from. I do, because, you know, they ... I think representation is important to some extent. And so I can understand-

Joe Rogan 1:08:51 Yeah.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:08:51 ... if you are of a group that isn't being f- uh, represented in the media, how you would want that to change.

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 Yeah, but you're also looking at an A-list actress who would bring an incredible amount of attention to your progressive project.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:09:06 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 And, you know, it may very well change the tone of the way people accept trans people.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:09:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 Like, if it's portrayed in a positive light, it's entirely possible that it would open up ... Like, especially f- people that are on the fence, it might open up their heart and make-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:09:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 ... make them look at things differently and say, "Oh, okay, I see where this woman wanted, you know, she, she wanted to transition to be a man because she was wired incorrectly or wired to be a man."

Dr. Debra Soh 1:09:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:33 I shouldn't even say incorrectly. Like, maybe I, you could see her as a person now instead of just as a, uh, uh, a subject for debate.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:09:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:42 Or as a, a, you know ...

Dr. Debra Soh 1:09:44 Well, I f- the only fear I would have is not, not with your point, but with my point, with the tokenization of people. So to say, "Okay, if this is a trans role, we need to find a trans person."

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 Right.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:09:53 You know, same as with racial tokenization, like, we need to have a certain quota so we need to have this me- number of people that fit this. That's my only issue, because then people look at it and say, "Oh, you only picked this person because of their identity, not because of what they brought to the table."

Joe Rogan 1:10:07 T- true, but I could argue against that. If you go back and look at, like, John Wayne when he played Genghis Khan, like, what in the fuck was that?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:10:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:15 Or like, there's a bunch (laughs) of those really goofy ones like Charlie Chan.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:10:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:19 Did you ever see the old school Charlie Chan movies?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:10:21 I think so. I think I know what you mean.

Joe Rogan 1:10:22 See if you can find Charlie Chan. It's fucking ridiculous.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:10:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:26 They ... I mean, you couldn't even get an Asian guy to play Charlie Chan?

Dr. Debra Soh 1:10:29 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:29 What the fuck is this? Or g- w- g- they didn't even, uh, they'd even try to make John Wayne look like he was Chinese.

Dr. Debra Soh 1:10:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:37 You know? I mean, there was a lot of that going on. You ma- d- did you ever see that ad where you see the Native American? Yeah. There's-

Dr. Debra Soh 1:10:44 Oh, boy.