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Joe Rogan Experience #1149 - Michael Scott Moore

Michael Scott Moore is a novelist and journalist, who was kidnapped by Somali pirates and spent two and half years in captivity. His book "The Desert and the Sea: 977 Days Captive on the Somali Pirate Coast" is available on Amazon now: https://www.amazon.com/Desert-Sea-Captive-Somali-Pirate/dp/0062449176

Michael Scott MooreguestJoe Roganhost
Jul 30, 20181h 20mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:54

    Meet Michael Scott Moore and the book that came from captivity

    1. MM

      (laughs)

    2. JR

      Very nice to meet you.

    3. MM

      Good to meet you. How are you? (slurps)

    4. JR

      Boom, and we're live. Uh, so just to give everybody a, a good way to start this. You have a book.

    5. MM

      (laughs)

    6. JR

      The book is called The Desert and the Sea, and you have one of the most disturbing and craziest stories I think I ever read.

    7. MM

      (laughs)

    8. JR

      You were kidnapped-

    9. MM

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      ... by Somali pirates-

    11. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JR

      ... and you were held hostage for more than two years.

    13. MM

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      What the fuck-

    15. MM

      (laughs)

    16. JR

      ... was that like? And what does it feel like to be a free man now-

    17. MM

      Oh.

    18. JR

      ... after all that?

    19. MM

      Are you kidding? It feels great.

    20. JR

      In America.

    21. MM

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      Wandering around the Valley.

    23. MM

      (laughs) The Valley, where I was born-

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. MM

      ... and raised, by the way.

    26. JR

      Were you?

    27. MM

      Yeah. This is the first time I've been back in the Valley for a couple of years now.

    28. JR

      What, what, what happened? And how, how did it happen?

  2. 0:54 – 2:02

    Why he went to Somalia: reporting on piracy and a German pirate trial

    1. MM

      (laughs) Long story. Um, so I wa- I went to Somalia in the first place to write a book, a very different book-

    2. JR

      Keep this light.

    3. MM

      ... about Somali pirates.

    4. JR

      Right in front of you.

    5. MM

      And, um, I d- so I'm a journalist. I was working in Berlin at the time, and I had followed, uh, the very long trial of 10 Somali pirates in Germany, um, in Hamburg for about a year, all of 2011. And before that, I had already thought about going to Somalia because the pirate story was interesting in all sorts of ways that I th- thought other writers weren't getting to. And I had met another journalist, uh, a documentary maker named Ashwan Roman, who also wanted to go to Somalia for his own project, and, uh, so we talked about going for a long time. And by the end of 2- 2011, um, in the middle of the trial, um, we, all our plans came together and, and, uh, we wound up going in January of 2012. And we had about 10 days of good research. Um, we both got pretty good material, and we were in a part of Somalia where other journalists had gone, so we weren't doing something that was totally off the map, you know. Um, and, uh, on the 10th day, uh, Ashwan flew off

  3. 2:02 – 2:34

    The abduction: stopped by a ‘technical’ and taken at gunpoint

    1. MM

      to Mogadishu, and, um, I went with him to the airport. We saw him off, and it was on the way back from the airport that, um, a truck was waiting for our car. And the truck, which was actually a technical, so a battle wagon with a cannon in the back, stopped us, aimed the cannon through the windshield, overpowered my guard, and 12 guys with Kalashnikovs pulled me out of the car. So, I was... They put me in another car, and we drove off. So from that moment on, I was a captive.

  4. 2:34 – 3:47

    Ransom demands and stalled negotiations: the $20 million opening

    1. JR

      Jesus Christ. And so they were obviously trying to get some hostage money.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      Ransom money.

    4. MM

      Oh, yeah. No, it was about money, and I think they were hoping for both of us, by the way. Um, Ashwan feels very lucky that he didn't get captured.

    5. JR

      So they had planned this?

    6. MM

      Yeah, and they were probably waiting for our car earlier in the morning. I mean, it was just Ashwan's good luck that we took a different route to the airport.

    7. JR

      How much money were they asking for?

    8. MM

      Uh, (laughs) the f- well, so the first thing they asked for me was $20 million, but that was after-

    9. JR

      (laughs)

    10. MM

      ... the first week. So the, I went for a week without having a phone call home. Um, and in that period, SEALs rescued two other hostages from another part of central Somalia, um, including Jessica Buchanan, an Am- an American. And I think nine Somali guards died in that raid. And they had some clan relationship to some of the guys holding me, and so the guys holding me were very upset, and I think that's why they asked for $20 million and held, held, more importantly, held onto that demand for so long. What, they held onto it for almost a year.

    11. JR

      That specific number, they wouldn't budge?

    12. MM

      Yeah, exactly.

    13. JR

      And so they were in negotiations?

    14. MM

      Yeah, there were negotiations, but they were, you know, phony negotiations in some sense because the Somalis weren't, weren't really negotiating.

  5. 3:47 – 5:46

    Debunking the ‘frustrated fishermen’ story: how piracy really evolved

    1. JR

      (sighs) So for some background for people that are unfamiliar with the situation in Somalia, Somalia, if, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, that area was traditionally fishermen and-

    2. MM

      Mm, yeah, that's wrong.

    3. JR

      It's wrong?

    4. MM

      Okay, so that's actually the point of the book. That's actually one level of the title, The Desert and the Sea. So that's a, um, you, you get the idea from things that Somali pirates like to say-

    5. JR

      Oh, okay.

    6. MM

      ... that they're just frustrated fishermen. Uh, that's only part of the story. And so that's a, that's a very important premise in the book. They, they, um, there are, uh, you know, fishing communities on the coast, and they're being, um, hard hit, definitely, by illegal ships that come in to s- to, to steal the fish, you know? But that's a problem up and down Africa. And because of that problem, um, o- once Somalia had no government, there was no navy, navy to defend the coastline, um, local sort of clan leaders would send out militia, boats with militiamen and hold fishing boats for, you know, $50,000 ransoms over 24-hour periods, you know? Really nothing very much, and they called it a license fee. And that's how you did business in Somalia in the '90s. We didn't hear about that. It was too small-time. We started to hear about it when they graduated to capturing cargo ships.

    7. JR

      The, what I'd heard was that, um, there was illegal dumping that wasn't just fishing-

    8. MM

      Also.

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MM

      Yep.

    11. JR

      Yeah. And that, um, they, uh, initially called themselves the People's Coast Guard of Somalia or the Voluntary Coast Guard?

    12. MM

      Yeah, one or two, uh, pirate, um, gangs tried to call themselves that, and, uh, uh, you know, they had a point.

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. MM

      There was no, no one else patrolling the coast.

    15. JR

      But that wasn't really what was going on?

    16. MM

      No.

    17. JR

      No?

    18. MM

      Um, I was captured on land, first of all. Uh, every other ca- uh, hostage I met was a fisherman, a poor fisherman, captured hundreds of miles from the Somali coast. So that's not protecting the coast.

  6. 5:46 – 7:55

    Khat and volatility: the stimulant culture around armed guards

    1. JR

      So what role does this stuff called khat, K-H-A-T?

    2. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      This is a, it, it's a plant that they chew?

    4. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      And it has, like, a stimulant effect?

    6. MM

      Yeah, it's a little bit like coca leaf, but I think actually it's a narcotic.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. MM

      Gets you high at first, um, and then you crash, and you wake up depressed, and you need more. Uh, but these guys, every single pirate I met was addicted, um, and they wound up...... having to sit in front of these piles of khat, um, every afternoon just to get high enough, uh, for their addiction. And, um, then, like I said, they would, they would crash at night and then do it again. Uh, in my case, there were, there were guards 24 hours a day, which meant there was also a shift that slept during the day, chewed khat at night-

    9. JR

      Wow.

    10. MM

      ... and then, and then crashed in the morning.

    11. JR

      Well, did you try any of that stuff?

    12. MM

      Yeah. No, I mean, they ga- they kept offering it to me. Um-

    13. JR

      What was it like?

    14. MM

      They ... I'd ... You know, I'd take, like, two or three stems or three or four stems. Not, not much, but it changed your mood. You know, you could be depressed and you'd feel better. Or you could be a little bit sick and you just wouldn't feel it anymore. Um, (clears throat) but I didn't wanna get addicted to it, so I didn't, I didn't keep pushing that.

    15. JR

      Is it ... It's that addictive?

    16. MM

      Yeah. Well, I saw it. I saw how addictive it could be with the guards. Uh, y- you know, a little bit on an afternoon didn't make me wanna keep doing it necessarily. But every, every now and then, I did it just for the sake of my mood. Yeah.

    17. JR

      That's always in the narrative-

    18. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      ... this khat stuff.

    20. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      The, the, the, that they're somehow or another unhinged because they're on this stuff all the time.

    22. MM

      Yeah. I mean, you can get really unhinged in the sense that you're ... Once you're wired on it, you're easily sort of upset and, and these guys would have ... They would sometimes have fistfights in front of me and that kinda thing.

    23. JR

      Really?

    24. MM

      N- Not all the time, but yeah, they would get, uh, they, they would get hopped up. They would just get jittery and that's, uh, is very dangerous with Kalashnikovs lying around.

    25. JR

      (inhales deeply) So their culture, somehow or another, has evolved to this point where it's insanely common to kidnap people, to the point where if you, if you talk about Somali pirates-

    26. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      ... they're the, it's ve- there are very few countries where pirates go after their name so easily.

  7. 7:55 – 11:06

    Piracy as a broader criminal portfolio: guns, migration routes, and slavery spillover

    1. MM

      Yeah. The, they, um ... Kidnapping became part of the culture, that's true. But pirate bosses, which are not so active now off the coast, um, also have other businesses that they get involved in. And so I've written about this in the meantime, too. They, they get involved in, uh, gun smuggling and also even people smuggling on the Horn of Africa. So, um, whatever takes that kind of equipment, you know, SUVs, Kalashnikovs, cheap food.

    2. JR

      When you say people smuggling, what do you mean?

    3. MM

      (smacks lips) Um, it's a good story. I found out ... I, I'm, I'm the person that proved that on the route between Somalia to Libya, um, some former pirate bosses were active in moving people. So in other words, Somalis who wanna go to, uh, Libya will put themselves in the hands of some traffickers and some of those traffickers might be ex-pirates.

    4. JR

      But w- w- w- go there as far as just being transported willingly?

    5. MM

      Willingly at first, and then, um, there's always a place in Sudan where it, where it shifts from being, uh, willing to being unwilling. Once-

    6. JR

      Well, this is an issue that's been going on in Libya recently. You, I'm sure you saw the, the most recent slave auctions that were-

    7. MM

      Yep.

    8. JR

      ... videotaped and put on YouTube, which was-

    9. MM

      This, the stories are awful. I've heard those firsthand, yeah.

    10. JR

      Insanely disturbing that you're watching a videotape of slave auctions-

    11. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JR

      ... in 2018.

    13. MM

      Mm-hmm. It's ... Well, it's more than disturbing. It's revival of what was going on, uh, when slavery was legal. So in other words, um, okay. Where the, where the Somalis are involved up to the l- to the, uh, s- Libyan border is one story, and that's the story I've covered. Um, what happens in Libya is a different story. The clans and the routes that migrants take through Libya, the clans they put themselves in the hands of, um, are still the same as the clans and the routes that were used during the slave trade. Um, so the- there's this, there's almost, like, a, you know, there's a, there's a historical memory there of what, what went on. And it's the same thing happening.

    14. JR

      Wow.

    15. MM

      Um, so, so I, I suspect a lot of migrants don't quite know how bad it can get. Uh, um, the route up until Libya is probably easier than Libya itself. Libya itself sounds like a horror show, for the migrants, you know?

    16. JR

      Well, it's particularly ... It, it's one of those bizarre things. We have a horrible dictator like Muammar Gaddafi.

    17. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JR

      And you say, "Well, it's probably a good thing to get rid of that guy, right?"

    19. MM

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    20. JR

      But no.

    21. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JR

      When you get rid of him, then you have this power vacuum. And apparently, it's a failed state now and it's gotten even worse.

    23. MM

      Yeah. It's, um, it's going in the direction of Somalia. Right now, there are a couple of rival governments. I think it's a little bit more stable, uh, then, than Somalia was after their dictator fell. But, um, it's, there's similar s- there's a similar thing going on. Um, I, uh ... It's true, uh, Gaddafi was a bad guy and, but he was also a bulwark and he knew that and he used that to his advantage with Europe.

    24. JR

      A bulwark?

    25. MM

      A bulwark against, against migration paths.

    26. JR

      I've never heard that expression.

    27. MM

      Oh, yeah.

    28. JR

      A bulwark.

    29. MM

      A bulwark?

    30. JR

      No. What does that mean?

  8. 11:06 – 12:41

    Entering a pirate-controlled region: Hobyo and the mechanics of ‘pirate towns’

    1. JR

      Oh, okay. Um, when you were there, when you decided to take 10 days and you'd done all this research, what, what did you expect when you went there and what was different?

    2. MM

      Well, so we, we were careful about finding security. We found, um, a Somali elder in Berlin who could, uh, offer the protection of his clan in Somalia. And, and he had done it with another, uh, journa- journalist, a German journalist. And he took us out from Galkayo, which is a town in Central Somalia, out to the coast, uh, to Hobyo, which is a pirate town you might've heard of. And-

    3. JR

      A pirate town?

    4. MM

      An actual pirate town, yeah.

    5. JR

      So it's all pirates?

    6. MM

      Well, it's in, it's in the control of, of pirates. So in other words, the, the government that sits in Galkayo has no influence there. Uh, the pirates are the ones with, who, who can have the say-so.

    7. JR

      So what is their business like? I mean, when you say it's like a pirate town, so the pirates are essentially in control, but, like, what else is going on there if you've got pirates in control?

    8. MM

      Oh, no. Normal Somali life is going on there, but, uh, the, the, you know, let's say the police force (laughs) would be pirates.

    9. JR

      Whoa.

    10. MM

      Yeah.... I mean, when we got there, it was pretty quiet and we didn't see much normal life. And we had a, um, a very organized interview and lunch, um, m- one afternoon with a, with a guy who turned out to be a real pirate. You know, that wasn't a joke. And then we l- we left around sundown and th- and that was it. We didn't spend a whole lot of time in Hobyo.

  9. 12:41 – 18:47

    First week as a captive: denial, injuries, isolation, and the first call home

    1. JR

      When you were there and you, uh, w- you eventually got captured and taken hostage, what, what was the initial experience like?

    2. MM

      Well, so when that happened with the sh- with the technical, with the truck, at first my mind actually recoiled from what was going on. I mean, I actually was in denial for a couple of seconds and I thought, "Okay, just a roadblock." (laughs) You know. Um, but once they captured me, I thought, "Well, this is gonna be really hard on my family."

    3. JR

      Jesus.

    4. MM

      And they, yeah, they, they beat me with their guns. They broke my wrist, they bloodied my, my scalp.

    5. JR

      (laughs) .

    6. MM

      Uh, and they broke my glasses, so that's the other thing I noticed right away was that, "Shit, I'm gonna be blind." (laughs)

    7. JR

      How bad are your, uh, eyes?

    8. MM

      I'm nearsighted. It's not, not, not good.

    9. JR

      And this is, like, initial, like, right away?

    10. MM

      (clicks tongue) Yeah. Oh, yeah, it happened in the, that first skirmish, yeah.

    11. JR

      So your, your wrist was broken right away?

    12. MM

      Yeah, because I was trying to hold the car door closed and they, they pounded on it with their gun barrels.

    13. JR

      Whew. (laughs) Wow.

    14. MM

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      And, uh, is it hard to talk about this?

    16. MM

      Uh, no, because now I've w- written the book. I wouldn't have been able to do this before writing the book. But writing the book familiarized myself with my own memories, you know? It made me fluent with this material.

    17. JR

      But your physical state seems to shift when you discuss it, like, you, you-

    18. MM

      Oh, maybe. I don't know. It's interesting.

    19. JR

      Yeah, your, your, your shoulders have risen.

    20. MM

      Sure.

    21. JR

      Your, your, like ... yeah. I mean-

    22. MM

      I don't know. It's a question of, you know... it's, it's not pleasant.

    23. JR

      I couldn't imagine.

    24. MM

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      I mean, it must've been just insane.

    26. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      Um, so you said there was a long period of time before your, your ... before they contacted anybody. Who do they contact?

    28. MM

      Um, okay, so it was a week and they ... I, so I had a grant, a reporting grant from the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting. I should've called them. Uh, but I had all my notes stolen, which means all my phone, phone numbers, too. And so when they finally brought me up to a bluff with a little cellphone and said, "Call somebody," I said, "Well, bring me my notes. I need to, uh, you know, find the right phone number." They said, "No, just call someone." So I called my mom. (laughs)

    29. JR

      Oh, Jesus.

    30. MM

      (laughs) Um, and, and that's what happened. By that, by that time, the FBI had informed her, uh, had actually come to her door, um, and briefed her a little on what to say on the phone. So, um, she was ready for the phone call, you know. She'd been sitting around for days wondering when she was gonna hear from me. Um, so ... but that was also true about the Pulitzer Center. It was also true about my colleagues at Spiegel Online in Berlin, and it was also true about my family in Germany. Everyone had been briefed a little bit.

  10. 18:47 – 23:35

    Living with pirates and other hostages: five months on a hijacked tuna ship

    1. JR

      God. Now, you ate with them, you got used to them.

    2. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      Did you almost become friends with them?

    4. MM

      Sure. I became friends with, you know, half friends, with th- with about half the pirate guard group that was with me at, at that point. So, I was held in a number of places. They also placed me on a tuna ship. I was placed on a ship hijacked by Somali pirates for about five months, and I think I'm the only Western writer to know life on a ship like that.

    5. JR

      Five months?

    6. MM

      Yeah. The, for the full spring and summer of, um, 2012.

    7. JR

      Wow.

    8. MM

      And then it was, it was after that that I was held on land, um, alone with the guards. And that's when I got to know the guards.

    9. JR

      You must have had this feeling like, "They're never gonna find me. They're moving me around, they're putting me on a ship."

    10. MM

      That was a problem. Um, once the... Especially when they put me on the ship, I've, I felt like any, um, progress the military had made in, in finding my location would have been completely reset, you know. I was terribly depressed when they first put me on the ship.

    11. JR

      I would al- I mean, and you were there for five months.

    12. MM

      (smacks lips) Yeah, but once I was on the ship, I felt better because there were 28 other hostages, the crew of the ship, and they were great. Um, it was, it's always better to have company when you're a captive. (laughs)

    13. JR

      Yeah, so the, the, the other people that were running the ship when they captured it-

    14. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      ... they were there as well?

    16. MM

      Yeah, and that was a crew of 28 guys from East Asia and Southeast Asia.

    17. JR

      Did they speak English?

    18. MM

      Only five of them. So five of them were th- from the Philippines, and we got along with them really good. Uh, everyone else we had to get to know somehow and, and the ship, they couldn't speak to each other either 'cause they had, it was a, like a tower of Babel on the ship. Um, and so they developed their own pidgin, which is what sailors have done for centuries, you know. It was a pidgin mixture of English and Chinese and a few other words.

    19. JR

      Wow.

    20. MM

      Yeah. That was fascinating.

    21. JR

      Yeah, I could imagine. Now as a writer, y- you, you had to be sort of like halfway torn, like, "God, if I get outta here, what a fucking story."

    22. MM

      Yeah. Uh, yeah, uh, I knew I was, you know, living through interesting things and gathering good material. But, um, after at least a year or so in captivity, I stopped hoping that I was gonna get out alive. I mean, things were going so badly as far as the negotiation was concerned that I thought, "This is really, I'm really in deep shit."

    23. JR

      Now, is that standard for them to hold people for that long?

    24. MM

      Yeah. Uh, yes and no. Um, I think I was h- held longer than any Westerner. Um, but the men on that ship didn't get out for an, uh, for a total of five years. Uh, just under five years, they were held. Um-

    25. JR

      But they did get out eventually?

    26. MM

      They did get out in 2016.

    27. JR

      Wow.

    28. MM

      And I was privileged enough to go to Nairobi and see them there. I took 'em by surprise.

    29. JR

      Wow.

    30. MM

      Yeah, it was, it was great.

  11. 23:35 – 1:17:56

    Dark calculations: escape fantasies, suicide ideation, and the ‘loaded rifle’ temptation

    1. JR

      Now, there was one thing that I read where y- a guard had left you alone-

    2. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      ... with a loaded rifle.

    4. MM

      It happened more than once.

    5. JR

      What is the, what's the thought process there in your mind?

    6. MM

      Yeah, that was, so especially after the first year or so, um, and until, um-

    7. JR

      How many guards are you talking about?

    8. MM

      We're talking about seven to 15 at an, any given point in, um-

    9. JR

      How many bullets are in the gun?

    10. MM

      The, well, it was a Kalashnikov, so s- a, a minimum of 16. Um-

    11. JR

      That's not enough.

    12. MM

      It's not enough. Um, and there were, there were, there were always a few guards who were asleep and a few guards who were awake. And so, you go through this thing in your head. You think, "Well, I can grab the gun, I can kill a few guys, but it would be suicidal." Um, but I went through various scenarios in my head all the time.You know, that was a, that was a very big temptation because th- the guns just lay around like junk, you know. Um, and that was, that was a dark period because the question was not just, "Can I blast my way out and live?" but also, "Should I just take care of it-

    13. JR

      Right.

    14. MM

      ... and kill myself now?" Because I knew that I was causing a whole lot of trouble for my family at home and there were probably military plans to come get me, which would put, you know, SEALs at risk or special operators at risk. And so-

    15. JR

      Whoosh.

    16. MM

      ... maybe it's better to just check out. And so that was on my mind, uh, often, especially during the second year.

    17. JR

      Were they sympathetic characters in any way? I mean, did you, when you were around them for long periods of time and you're taking into consideration this life that's been thrust upon them.

    18. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      And this is the environment they grew up in and this is their... I mean, you, you had to have at least in some way gotten to know them.

    20. MM

      Sure. And I went there thinking, "Well, you know, I'm gonna tell their story somehow."

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. MM

      Um-

    23. JR

      Did you tell them that?

    24. MM

      Yeah. But by the time I was captured, that didn't matter, you know. Um, uh, yes, of course, they w- they were, especially the ones who wanted to talk to me, of course they were sympathetic. Um, they're, they're poor people. So the, th- even if it's not true that most pirates are frustrated fishermen, probably only about 20% of them are, uh, all of 'em are poor. All of 'em need jobs and that's why they became pirates. Um, you have to layer on top of that the fact that it, a khat habit is extremely, ruinously expensive in Dr- in Somalia. Um-

    25. JR

      Where does khat come from?

    26. MM

      Khat comes from highlands. So it has to be grown in the mountains of Ethiopia or Kenya and flown in fresh. Uh, it can't be grown in a, uh, you know, flat, hot desert region like, like Somalia or Yemen, but that's where it's popular, especially among Muslims who can't drink alcohol. So, um, it's, th- there's a, there's a whole trade in that region in the, of the world. Uh, and most of, most of the time it's legal. I think they only ill- i- illegalized it in, uh, Britain, for example, in 2014.

    27. JR

      Really?

    28. MM

      Yeah. I think it's illegal here, but, um, the trade, it just flows like water in that, uh, in, in Somalia and the, the Arabian Peninsula.

    29. JR

      So the voluntary coast guard of Somalia, what we've been led to believe that this is how it all started out.

    30. MM

      Mm-hmm.

  12. 34:34 – 42:53

    Aftermath: PTSD symptoms, physical rebuilding, and avoiding ‘pathologizing’ recovery

    1. JR

      What does, what does it feel like now to be free? Do you, do you still have, do you have PTSD from it? Do you get...

    2. MM

      (smacks lips) Um, well, now I can be happy about it. I think the day I was released I was sort of... I felt better in stages, but I wa- it wasn't a sudden, you know, euphoria. Um, now I can be, really happy about it. It took me about a year to get back to full strength and the symptoms of PTSD that I showed, um, when I first got out, which included like hyper, hyper vigilance, um, went away slowly as I got physically stronger.

    3. JR

      Hyper vigilance being like wake up in the middle of the night, nightmares, or-

    4. MM

      That, well, that, uh, nightmares only happened within the first year. Um, waking up in the middle of the night, that still happens. I still don't sleep too well. Hyper vigilance, I mean out in public, too many people around, you know, like you hear with vets. Um, and I was aware of that as a symptom and, um, I felt it first when we were out in public in Nairobi and I turned to this, uh, FBI psychologist who was with me and I said, uh, you know, "Am I hyper vigilant?" He said, "Maybe." And then I said, "Are you here because, you know, I might have PTSD?" He said, "We don't like to put a label on anything." And that was his attitude towards me. That was the tack he took, and, uh, in my case at least, it was right. Um, eventually he said... I said, "Shouldn't I be treated for PTSD or shouldn't I be going to regular talk therapy or something like that?" And he said, "You know, you don't wanna pathologize anything."

    5. JR

      Mm.

    6. MM

      In other words, "You don't wanna create mentally another condition for you, for you to recover from. You know, it's enough work for your mind and your body to recover quite naturally. They know how to do it from the, all that trauma."

    7. JR

      That's very interesting 'cause I've heard people talk about that with other things.

    8. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      Particularly with war.

    10. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      That you're, you're better off not deciding what you have.

    12. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      Or not being told what you have.

    14. MM

      Mm-hmm. Uh, in my case, that's true. I mean, uh, who knows? The, I think PTSD can be so complicated there.... you know, their pharmaceutical solutions-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. MM

      ... and that kind of thing, for some people. Um, the body and mind know how to recover.

    17. JR

      So-

    18. MM

      You have to... You, you have to let them.

    19. JR

      Do they give you techniques to recover? As in, in instead of explaining or discussing what the issue is, do they give you techniques to feel better or to, to establish more normal existence?

    20. MM

      Uh, no. I di- I mean, I didn't get a checklist, but, uh, the psychologist would say, you know, "If something's bothering you, write it down." Um, but he knew I was a writer. Um, he... They made sure they knew that I had a loving family around me when I got back and a, and a great circle of friends in Berlin. Uh, that's really important. Um, I think everybody finds their own way. I mean, I, I knew I was weak. I mean, I was just-

    21. JR

      Physically.

    22. MM

      ... like a wraith, you know-

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. MM

      ... when I got out. Um-

    25. JR

      How much weight did you lose?

    26. MM

      I, I lost about 40 pounds. And, um, when I w- when I first came out and walked around in Berlin, Berlin's a walking city, so I tried to lead like a normal day. Um, my knees swelled up and my ankles swelled up, and they were really painful. So it was like I'd just played a game of football or something.

    27. JR

      You weren't moving while you were there?

    28. MM

      Yeah, not enough. I did yoga, but I, uh, I didn't go for a jog around the room or something, like you sometimes hear from prisoners.

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. MM

      If I'd done that, I think they would've been so s- startled, they, they would've shot me. (laughs) Uh, but I was not in any kind of shape for, for normal life when I got out. And in fact, one day when I got back from Berlin, I tried to run for a streetcar. I just didn't have the musculature for it. I simply didn't have a stride to run. I could not run.

  13. 42:53 – 1:17:56

    Meaning-making: writing the memoir, learning forgiveness, and life/work after Somalia

    1. JR

      Yeah. Wow. Now, this book that you wrote of The Desert and the Sea, how, how difficult was it to sit down in front of a computer and sort of recapture these thoughts and transcribe them?

    2. MM

      Yeah. The, well, that... So that was also sort of blood and sweat. Um, my... The research (laughs) was blood, sweat and tears and so was-

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. MM

      ... the writing. But, um, I did know at least the s- the facts of the story, so I put those down first, and then we went back and did how it felt. So the em- putting everything down, which a writer likes to do, you know, all at once, in one sort of great m- act of creation, um, that wo- that would've been a little overwhelming. So I did it in layers, and tha- that was the way to go.

    5. JR

      What were you like before this? And what are you like now? And what's different?

    6. MM

      (smacks lips) I think my, my basic self is the same, but I, uh, I, I'm more patient. Um, I'm more grateful. So just getting out alive, um, made me certainly grateful to be around. Uh, it was great to see my family and friends again. (smacks lips) And if I ever f- start to feel ungrateful for something, I have this well of memory that I can go back to. Um, that's essential. And I think in Somalia, I also learned to forgive, which was, you know, not an easy process. And it's something... But I think it's so- something very essential.

    7. JR

      How so?

    8. MM

      (inhales deeply)

    9. JR

      How did you learn to forgive?

    10. MM

      Um, so we talked about picking up a Kalashnikov. I was gonna do that. I thought about doing that, and it was an internal debate for a really long time, until one point where, um, I actually heard something on the radio from the pope, the new pope, I'd never, you know, even seen before. (smacks lips) And he gave a very good homily about what forgiveness meant, and that resonated. And at some point, I made a conscious decision to forgive the guards who were around me. You know, these are the lowe- lowest ranking guys, but they were making my life miserable. And I m- made a conscious decision to forgive them. And I had to do that over and over, and that made my mind a whole lot more, more stable and settl- settled, which means that unless I had done that, I probably would've picked up a gun and, and killed myself, if not them, or both.

    11. JR

      That's fascinating that a speech by the pope could resonate so strongly with you while you're in captivity.

    12. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      Just forgiveness.

    14. MM

      Forgiveness. D- it wouldn't have had to be by the pope, but he, he was pretty good.

    15. JR

      That's something that people play- pay lip service to. (smacks lips) And, you know, you hear s- people saying, "You should live a life of forgiveness."

    16. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      "And it's healthier for you." But no one can really understand that the way you have.

    18. MM

      Mm-hmm. For me, it was life and death. (inhales deeply)

    19. JR

      Wow. Man, it's so... I mean, I can't wait to read your book.

    20. MM

      (laughs)

    21. JR

      It is, it is a crazy story. Uh, uh, y- your... D- I mean, th- it's just such an insane experience-

    22. MM

      Yeah, it was.

    23. JR

      ... that your, y- your just your well of experiences, like, what you can draw upon is (smacks lips) so different from most people that you're interacting with. You m- you must almost feel like you're going through life interacting with privileged children.

    24. MM

      Sometimes. But the, th- s- so first of all, I'm just very happy to be back in-

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. MM

      ... uh, in the world I grew up in. So th- that's the main thing. Um, but yeah, that comes up sometimes.

    27. JR

      You know, when people complain about things?

    28. MM

      For example.

    29. JR

      "Oh, it's so fucking hot out."

    30. MM

      Right.

Episode duration: 1:20:22

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