Joe Rogan Experience #1149 - Michael Scott Moore

Michael Scott Moore 0:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:00 Very nice to meet you.

Michael Scott Moore 0:01 Good to meet you. How are you? (slurps)

Joe Rogan 0:06 Boom, and we're live. Uh, so just to give everybody a, a good way to start this. You have a book.

Michael Scott Moore 0:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:15 The book is called The Desert and the Sea, and you have one of the most disturbing and craziest stories I think I ever read.

Michael Scott Moore 0:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:24 You were kidnapped-

Michael Scott Moore 0:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:25 ... by Somali pirates-

Michael Scott Moore 0:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:27 ... and you were held hostage for more than two years.

Michael Scott Moore 0:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:32 What the fuck-

Michael Scott Moore 0:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:33 ... was that like? And what does it feel like to be a free man now-

Michael Scott Moore 0:37 Oh.

Joe Rogan 0:37 ... after all that?

Michael Scott Moore 0:38 Are you kidding? It feels great.

Joe Rogan 0:39 In America.

Michael Scott Moore 0:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:40 Wandering around the Valley.

Michael Scott Moore 0:42 (laughs) The Valley, where I was born-

Joe Rogan 0:43 (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 0:43 ... and raised, by the way.

Joe Rogan 0:44 Were you?

Michael Scott Moore 0:45 Yeah. This is the first time I've been back in the Valley for a couple of years now.

Joe Rogan 0:48 What, what, what happened? And how, how did it happen?

Michael Scott Moore 0:54 (laughs) Long story. Um, so I wa- I went to Somalia in the first place to write a book, a very different book-

Joe Rogan 1:00 Keep this light.

Michael Scott Moore 1:00 ... about Somali pirates.

Joe Rogan 1:01 Right in front of you.

Michael Scott Moore 1:02 And, um, I d- so I'm a journalist. I was working in Berlin at the time, and I had followed, uh, the very long trial of 10 Somali pirates in Germany, um, in Hamburg for about a year, all of 2011. And before that, I had already thought about going to Somalia because the pirate story was interesting in all sorts of ways that I th- thought other writers weren't getting to. And I had met another journalist, uh, a documentary maker named Ashwan Roman, who also wanted to go to Somalia for his own project, and, uh, so we talked about going for a long time. And by the end of 2- 2011, um, in the middle of the trial, um, we, all our plans came together and, and, uh, we wound up going in January of 2012. And we had about 10 days of good research. Um, we both got pretty good material, and we were in a part of Somalia where other journalists had gone, so we weren't doing something that was totally off the map, you know. Um, and, uh, on the 10th day, uh, Ashwan flew off

Michael Scott Moore 2:02 to Mogadishu, and, um, I went with him to the airport. We saw him off, and it was on the way back from the airport that, um, a truck was waiting for our car. And the truck, which was actually a technical, so a battle wagon with a cannon in the back, stopped us, aimed the cannon through the windshield, overpowered my guard, and 12 guys with Kalashnikovs pulled me out of the car. So, I was... They put me in another car, and we drove off. So from that moment on, I was a captive.

Joe Rogan 2:34 Jesus Christ. And so they were obviously trying to get some hostage money.

Michael Scott Moore 2:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:40 Ransom money.

Michael Scott Moore 2:41 Oh, yeah. No, it was about money, and I think they were hoping for both of us, by the way. Um, Ashwan feels very lucky that he didn't get captured.

Joe Rogan 2:48 So they had planned this?

Michael Scott Moore 2:49 Yeah, and they were probably waiting for our car earlier in the morning. I mean, it was just Ashwan's good luck that we took a different route to the airport.

Joe Rogan 2:56 How much money were they asking for?

Michael Scott Moore 2:57 Uh, (laughs) the f- well, so the first thing they asked for me was $20 million, but that was after-

Joe Rogan 3:02 (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 3:02 ... the first week. So the, I went for a week without having a phone call home. Um, and in that period, SEALs rescued two other hostages from another part of central Somalia, um, including Jessica Buchanan, an Am- an American. And I think nine Somali guards died in that raid. And they had some clan relationship to some of the guys holding me, and so the guys holding me were very upset, and I think that's why they asked for $20 million and held, held, more importantly, held onto that demand for so long. What, they held onto it for almost a year.

Joe Rogan 3:35 That specific number, they wouldn't budge?

Michael Scott Moore 3:36 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 3:37 And so they were in negotiations?

Michael Scott Moore 3:38 Yeah, there were negotiations, but they were, you know, phony negotiations in some sense because the Somalis weren't, weren't really negotiating.

Joe Rogan 3:47 (sighs) So for some background for people that are unfamiliar with the situation in Somalia, Somalia, if, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, that area was traditionally fishermen and-

Michael Scott Moore 4:01 Mm, yeah, that's wrong.

Joe Rogan 4:02 It's wrong?

Michael Scott Moore 4:03 Okay, so that's actually the point of the book. That's actually one level of the title, The Desert and the Sea. So that's a, um, you, you get the idea from things that Somali pirates like to say-

Joe Rogan 4:14 Oh, okay.

Michael Scott Moore 4:15 ... that they're just frustrated fishermen. Uh, that's only part of the story. And so that's a, that's a very important premise in the book. They, they, um, there are, uh, you know, fishing communities on the coast, and they're being, um, hard hit, definitely, by illegal ships that come in to s- to, to steal the fish, you know? But that's a problem up and down Africa. And because of that problem, um, o- once Somalia had no government, there was no navy, navy to defend the coastline, um, local sort of clan leaders would send out militia, boats with militiamen and hold fishing boats for, you know, $50,000 ransoms over 24-hour periods, you know? Really nothing very much, and they called it a license fee. And that's how you did business in Somalia in the '90s. We didn't hear about that. It was too small-time. We started to hear about it when they graduated to capturing cargo ships.

Joe Rogan 5:10 The, what I'd heard was that, um, there was illegal dumping that wasn't just fishing-

Michael Scott Moore 5:15 Also.

Joe Rogan 5:15 Mm-hmm.

Michael Scott Moore 5:16 Yep.

Joe Rogan 5:16 Yeah. And that, um, they, uh, initially called themselves the People's Coast Guard of Somalia or the Voluntary Coast Guard?

Michael Scott Moore 5:22 Yeah, one or two, uh, pirate, um, gangs tried to call themselves that, and, uh, uh, you know, they had a point.

Joe Rogan 5:29 (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 5:29 There was no, no one else patrolling the coast.

Joe Rogan 5:32 But that wasn't really what was going on?

Michael Scott Moore 5:34 No.

Joe Rogan 5:34 No?

Michael Scott Moore 5:34 Um, I was captured on land, first of all. Uh, every other ca- uh, hostage I met was a fisherman, a poor fisherman, captured hundreds of miles from the Somali coast. So that's not protecting the coast.

Joe Rogan 5:46 So what role does this stuff called khat, K-H-A-T?

Michael Scott Moore 5:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:51 This is a, it, it's a plant that they chew?

Michael Scott Moore 5:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:55 And it has, like, a stimulant effect?

Michael Scott Moore 5:57 Yeah, it's a little bit like coca leaf, but I think actually it's a narcotic.

Joe Rogan 6:00 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 6:01 Gets you high at first, um, and then you crash, and you wake up depressed, and you need more. Uh, but these guys, every single pirate I met was addicted, um, and they wound up...... having to sit in front of these piles of khat, um, every afternoon just to get high enough, uh, for their addiction. And, um, then, like I said, they would, they would crash at night and then do it again. Uh, in my case, there were, there were guards 24 hours a day, which meant there was also a shift that slept during the day, chewed khat at night-

Joe Rogan 6:31 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 6:31 ... and then, and then crashed in the morning.

Joe Rogan 6:34 Well, did you try any of that stuff?

Michael Scott Moore 6:36 Yeah. No, I mean, they ga- they kept offering it to me. Um-

Joe Rogan 6:38 What was it like?

Michael Scott Moore 6:39 They ... I'd ... You know, I'd take, like, two or three stems or three or four stems. Not, not much, but it changed your mood. You know, you could be depressed and you'd feel better. Or you could be a little bit sick and you just wouldn't feel it anymore. Um, (clears throat) but I didn't wanna get addicted to it, so I didn't, I didn't keep pushing that.

Joe Rogan 6:57 Is it ... It's that addictive?

Michael Scott Moore 6:59 Yeah. Well, I saw it. I saw how addictive it could be with the guards. Uh, y- you know, a little bit on an afternoon didn't make me wanna keep doing it necessarily. But every, every now and then, I did it just for the sake of my mood. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:10 That's always in the narrative-

Michael Scott Moore 7:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:12 ... this khat stuff.

Michael Scott Moore 7:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:13 The, the, the, that they're somehow or another unhinged because they're on this stuff all the time.

Michael Scott Moore 7:17 Yeah. I mean, you can get really unhinged in the sense that you're ... Once you're wired on it, you're easily sort of upset and, and these guys would have ... They would sometimes have fistfights in front of me and that kinda thing.

Joe Rogan 7:28 Really?

Michael Scott Moore 7:28 N- Not all the time, but yeah, they would get, uh, they, they would get hopped up. They would just get jittery and that's, uh, is very dangerous with Kalashnikovs lying around.

Joe Rogan 7:37 (inhales deeply) So their culture, somehow or another, has evolved to this point where it's insanely common to kidnap people, to the point where if you, if you talk about Somali pirates-

Michael Scott Moore 7:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:50 ... they're the, it's ve- there are very few countries where pirates go after their name so easily.

Michael Scott Moore 7:55 Yeah. The, they, um ... Kidnapping became part of the culture, that's true. But pirate bosses, which are not so active now off the coast, um, also have other businesses that they get involved in. And so I've written about this in the meantime, too. They, they get involved in, uh, gun smuggling and also even people smuggling on the Horn of Africa. So, um, whatever takes that kind of equipment, you know, SUVs, Kalashnikovs, cheap food.

Joe Rogan 8:21 When you say people smuggling, what do you mean?

Michael Scott Moore 8:24 (smacks lips) Um, it's a good story. I found out ... I, I'm, I'm the person that proved that on the route between Somalia to Libya, um, some former pirate bosses were active in moving people. So in other words, Somalis who wanna go to, uh, Libya will put themselves in the hands of some traffickers and some of those traffickers might be ex-pirates.

Joe Rogan 8:46 But w- w- w- go there as far as just being transported willingly?

Michael Scott Moore 8:51 Willingly at first, and then, um, there's always a place in Sudan where it, where it shifts from being, uh, willing to being unwilling. Once-

Joe Rogan 8:59 Well, this is an issue that's been going on in Libya recently. You, I'm sure you saw the, the most recent slave auctions that were-

Michael Scott Moore 9:06 Yep.

Joe Rogan 9:06 ... videotaped and put on YouTube, which was-

Michael Scott Moore 9:09 This, the stories are awful. I've heard those firsthand, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:11 Insanely disturbing that you're watching a videotape of slave auctions-

Michael Scott Moore 9:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:16 ... in 2018.

Michael Scott Moore 9:18 Mm-hmm. It's ... Well, it's more than disturbing. It's revival of what was going on, uh, when slavery was legal. So in other words, um, okay. Where the, where the Somalis are involved up to the l- to the, uh, s- Libyan border is one story, and that's the story I've covered. Um, what happens in Libya is a different story. The clans and the routes that migrants take through Libya, the clans they put themselves in the hands of, um, are still the same as the clans and the routes that were used during the slave trade. Um, so the- there's this, there's almost, like, a, you know, there's a, there's a historical memory there of what, what went on. And it's the same thing happening.

Joe Rogan 10:01 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 10:01 Um, so, so I, I suspect a lot of migrants don't quite know how bad it can get. Uh, um, the route up until Libya is probably easier than Libya itself. Libya itself sounds like a horror show, for the migrants, you know?

Joe Rogan 10:17 Well, it's particularly ... It, it's one of those bizarre things. We have a horrible dictator like Muammar Gaddafi.

Michael Scott Moore 10:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:23 And you say, "Well, it's probably a good thing to get rid of that guy, right?"

Michael Scott Moore 10:27 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:27 But no.

Michael Scott Moore 10:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:28 When you get rid of him, then you have this power vacuum. And apparently, it's a failed state now and it's gotten even worse.

Michael Scott Moore 10:34 Yeah. It's, um, it's going in the direction of Somalia. Right now, there are a couple of rival governments. I think it's a little bit more stable, uh, then, than Somalia was after their dictator fell. But, um, it's, there's similar s- there's a similar thing going on. Um, I, uh ... It's true, uh, Gaddafi was a bad guy and, but he was also a bulwark and he knew that and he used that to his advantage with Europe.

Joe Rogan 10:58 A bulwark?

Michael Scott Moore 10:58 A bulwark against, against migration paths.

Joe Rogan 11:01 I've never heard that expression.

Michael Scott Moore 11:02 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:02 A bulwark.

Michael Scott Moore 11:03 A bulwark?

Joe Rogan 11:04 No. What does that mean?

Michael Scott Moore 11:05 B- a roadblock.

Joe Rogan 11:06 Oh, okay. Um, when you were there, when you decided to take 10 days and you'd done all this research, what, what did you expect when you went there and what was different?

Michael Scott Moore 11:19 Well, so we, we were careful about finding security. We found, um, a Somali elder in Berlin who could, uh, offer the protection of his clan in Somalia. And, and he had done it with another, uh, journa- journalist, a German journalist. And he took us out from Galkayo, which is a town in Central Somalia, out to the coast, uh, to Hobyo, which is a pirate town you might've heard of. And-

Joe Rogan 11:42 A pirate town?

Michael Scott Moore 11:43 An actual pirate town, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:45 So it's all pirates?

Michael Scott Moore 11:46 Well, it's in, it's in the control of, of pirates. So in other words, the, the government that sits in Galkayo has no influence there. Uh, the pirates are the ones with, who, who can have the say-so.

Joe Rogan 11:59 So what is their business like? I mean, when you say it's like a pirate town, so the pirates are essentially in control, but, like, what else is going on there if you've got pirates in control?

Michael Scott Moore 12:08 Oh, no. Normal Somali life is going on there, but, uh, the, the, you know, let's say the police force (laughs) would be pirates.

Joe Rogan 12:16 Whoa.

Michael Scott Moore 12:17 Yeah.... I mean, when we got there, it was pretty quiet and we didn't see much normal life. And we had a, um, a very organized interview and lunch, um, m- one afternoon with a, with a guy who turned out to be a real pirate. You know, that wasn't a joke. And then we l- we left around sundown and th- and that was it. We didn't spend a whole lot of time in Hobyo.

Joe Rogan 12:41 When you were there and you, uh, w- you eventually got captured and taken hostage, what, what was the initial experience like?

Michael Scott Moore 12:51 Well, so when that happened with the sh- with the technical, with the truck, at first my mind actually recoiled from what was going on. I mean, I actually was in denial for a couple of seconds and I thought, "Okay, just a roadblock." (laughs) You know. Um, but once they captured me, I thought, "Well, this is gonna be really hard on my family."

Joe Rogan 13:11 Jesus.

Michael Scott Moore 13:12 And they, yeah, they, they beat me with their guns. They broke my wrist, they bloodied my, my scalp.

Joe Rogan 13:19 (laughs) .

Michael Scott Moore 13:19 Uh, and they broke my glasses, so that's the other thing I noticed right away was that, "Shit, I'm gonna be blind." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:25 How bad are your, uh, eyes?

Michael Scott Moore 13:26 I'm nearsighted. It's not, not, not good.

Joe Rogan 13:31 And this is, like, initial, like, right away?

Michael Scott Moore 13:34 (clicks tongue) Yeah. Oh, yeah, it happened in the, that first skirmish, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:37 So your, your wrist was broken right away?

Michael Scott Moore 13:39 Yeah, because I was trying to hold the car door closed and they, they pounded on it with their gun barrels.

Joe Rogan 13:46 Whew. (laughs) Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 13:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:48 And, uh, is it hard to talk about this?

Michael Scott Moore 13:51 Uh, no, because now I've w- written the book. I wouldn't have been able to do this before writing the book. But writing the book familiarized myself with my own memories, you know? It made me fluent with this material.

Joe Rogan 14:01 But your physical state seems to shift when you discuss it, like, you, you-

Michael Scott Moore 14:05 Oh, maybe. I don't know. It's interesting.

Joe Rogan 14:06 Yeah, your, your, your shoulders have risen.

Michael Scott Moore 14:09 Sure.

Joe Rogan 14:10 Your, your, like ... yeah. I mean-

Michael Scott Moore 14:12 I don't know. It's a question of, you know... it's, it's not pleasant.

Joe Rogan 14:15 I couldn't imagine.

Michael Scott Moore 14:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:17 I mean, it must've been just insane.

Michael Scott Moore 14:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:20 Um, so you said there was a long period of time before your, your ... before they contacted anybody. Who do they contact?

Michael Scott Moore 14:29 Um, okay, so it was a week and they ... I, so I had a grant, a reporting grant from the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting. I should've called them. Uh, but I had all my notes stolen, which means all my phone, phone numbers, too. And so when they finally brought me up to a bluff with a little cellphone and said, "Call somebody," I said, "Well, bring me my notes. I need to, uh, you know, find the right phone number." They said, "No, just call someone." So I called my mom. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:57 Oh, Jesus.

Michael Scott Moore 14:58 (laughs) Um, and, and that's what happened. By that, by that time, the FBI had informed her, uh, had actually come to her door, um, and briefed her a little on what to say on the phone. So, um, she was ready for the phone call, you know. She'd been sitting around for days wondering when she was gonna hear from me. Um, so ... but that was also true about the Pulitzer Center. It was also true about my colleagues at Spiegel Online in Berlin, and it was also true about my family in Germany. Everyone had been briefed a little bit.

Joe Rogan 15:31 Now, were they waiting for a specific reason? Why did they wait a whole week?

Michael Scott Moore 15:35 No idea. It's a really good question. I kept asking for a phone call. I mean, I, I was sitting there kind of in a panic too, you know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:42 And what were they saying to you during this week? I mean, you-

Michael Scott Moore 15:43 They said, "Oh, yeah, okay."

Joe Rogan 15:44 You have a broken arm, right?

Michael Scott Moore 15:46 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:46 So you're, you're obviously ... you're in pain.

Michael Scott Moore 15:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:50 You can't see anymore.

Michael Scott Moore 15:51 Yeah. I was in a ... the first, first they took me to a bush camp, then they took me, with a couple of other hostages, to a (sniffs) prison house. And, uh, yeah, I had my wrist in a sling and, um ... it just was ... it was painful and it was con- it was confusing. I really didn't know what was going on. And then slowly, they brought a doctor in to look at the wrist, and then slowly, they took us out into the bush, and then finally they gave ... put me on the phone.

Joe Rogan 16:19 So you, you got medical treatment for your wrist?

Michael Scott Moore 16:22 Sort of.

Joe Rogan 16:22 Did they set it?

Michael Scott Moore 16:22 Yeah, the g- the guy, he was, he was probably a, uh, livestock doctor, but the, the guy was ... he was a very sympathetic old- older man. Um, but he said, "Your wrist is not broken." (laughs) And he put a splint on it, and that was it. It was broke.

Joe Rogan 16:36 Hmm.

Michael Scott Moore 16:36 Not broken in half, you know, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 16:39 But definitely cracked.

Michael Scott Moore 16:39 ... uh, the r- I felt, I felt bones moving around in there.

Joe Rogan 16:41 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 16:42 It's been re- rearranged. It's been reshaped.

Joe Rogan 16:45 Um, did you ev- eventually get medical treatment when you get home for it?

Michael Scott Moore 16:49 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. When I got home, but th- to-

Joe Rogan 16:50 To fix it? To get surgery?

Michael Scott Moore 16:51 No, two years and eight months later, it was, it was okay. It was a fine set-

Joe Rogan 16:54 Oh, it was set?

Michael Scott Moore 16:54 ... it's a functioning wrist, r- yeah, it's, it's set wrong, but it's a functioning wrist.

Joe Rogan 16:58 Did you get an X-ray just so you could see how weird it looks?

Michael Scott Moore 17:01 Didn't even bother. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:02 Wow. Now, when you're there, um, once you get the initial phone call-

Michael Scott Moore 17:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:08 ... what does, what does the process like after that? Are they, th- are they talking to you about what they want?

Michael Scott Moore 17:12 Yeah, they said, "Okay, d- you have to demand $20 million from your mother." (laughs) Well, I think I must've smirked or something. They said, "It's not funny." (laughs) I said, "Yes, actually it is. That's not a serious demand," you know? Um, but, uh, that was their opening gambit.

Joe Rogan 17:26 $20 million. What, why specifically $20 million?

Michael Scott Moore 17:28 That's a good question. They ... the f- the first two hostages I was held with, um, two Seychellois fishermen, um, the ransom for them was also $20 million, but that's $10 million each, so maybe they were just doubling it for the American.

Joe Rogan 17:42 There was a, a time where they told you that if people showed up for you, that you were gonna be killed.

Michael Scott Moore 17:49 Oh, sure. They said that right away, because by the time the phone call had happened, um, the, the raid, uh, for Jessica Buchanan and Paul Tistad had already happened, too. So, um, they even mentioned that to me, and of course I had no idea what they were talking about. I had no news, you know? So, um, I mentioned it to my mother on the phone. I said, "They're talking about a raid, and they're saying if somebody else comes for me, I'm gonna get shot dead?" But, you know, tho- those are already the terms of a kidnapping.

Joe Rogan 18:17 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 18:17 You know, that was not a big change in my situation. (laughs) Uh, and my mom could tell me very little on the phone about, about the rescue, but she s- had ...... something positive in her voice. She said, "Oh, yeah, the rescue." And I thought, "That doesn't sound like..." The pirates, of course, told me the hostages had, had been killed. I'm like, "That doesn't sound like it went bad." (laughs) But it was still another month and a half or something before I found out the full story.

Joe Rogan 18:42 Jesus. Two and a half years? Is that what- how long you were-

Michael Scott Moore 18:45 Yeah, two years and eight months.

Joe Rogan 18:47 God. Now, you ate with them, you got used to them.

Michael Scott Moore 18:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:53 Did you almost become friends with them?

Michael Scott Moore 18:55 Sure. I became friends with, you know, half friends, with th- with about half the pirate guard group that was with me at, at that point. So, I was held in a number of places. They also placed me on a tuna ship. I was placed on a ship hijacked by Somali pirates for about five months, and I think I'm the only Western writer to know life on a ship like that.

Joe Rogan 19:18 Five months?

Michael Scott Moore 19:19 Yeah. The, for the full spring and summer of, um, 2012.

Joe Rogan 19:24 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 19:24 And then it was, it was after that that I was held on land, um, alone with the guards. And that's when I got to know the guards.

Joe Rogan 19:33 You must have had this feeling like, "They're never gonna find me. They're moving me around, they're putting me on a ship."

Michael Scott Moore 19:37 That was a problem. Um, once the... Especially when they put me on the ship, I've, I felt like any, um, progress the military had made in, in finding my location would have been completely reset, you know. I was terribly depressed when they first put me on the ship.

Joe Rogan 19:54 I would al- I mean, and you were there for five months.

Michael Scott Moore 19:57 (smacks lips) Yeah, but once I was on the ship, I felt better because there were 28 other hostages, the crew of the ship, and they were great. Um, it was, it's always better to have company when you're a captive. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:08 Yeah, so the, the, the other people that were running the ship when they captured it-

Michael Scott Moore 20:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:12 ... they were there as well?

Michael Scott Moore 20:13 Yeah, and that was a crew of 28 guys from East Asia and Southeast Asia.

Joe Rogan 20:19 Did they speak English?

Michael Scott Moore 20:21 Only five of them. So five of them were th- from the Philippines, and we got along with them really good. Uh, everyone else we had to get to know somehow and, and the ship, they couldn't speak to each other either 'cause they had, it was a, like a tower of Babel on the ship. Um, and so they developed their own pidgin, which is what sailors have done for centuries, you know. It was a pidgin mixture of English and Chinese and a few other words.

Joe Rogan 20:44 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 20:45 Yeah. That was fascinating.

Joe Rogan 20:47 Yeah, I could imagine. Now as a writer, y- you, you had to be sort of like halfway torn, like, "God, if I get outta here, what a fucking story."

Michael Scott Moore 20:55 Yeah. Uh, yeah, uh, I knew I was, you know, living through interesting things and gathering good material. But, um, after at least a year or so in captivity, I stopped hoping that I was gonna get out alive. I mean, things were going so badly as far as the negotiation was concerned that I thought, "This is really, I'm really in deep shit."

Joe Rogan 21:17 Now, is that standard for them to hold people for that long?

Michael Scott Moore 21:21 Yeah. Uh, yes and no. Um, I think I was h- held longer than any Westerner. Um, but the men on that ship didn't get out for an, uh, for a total of five years. Uh, just under five years, they were held. Um-

Joe Rogan 21:37 But they did get out eventually?

Michael Scott Moore 21:38 They did get out in 2016.

Joe Rogan 21:39 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 21:40 And I was privileged enough to go to Nairobi and see them there. I took 'em by surprise.

Joe Rogan 21:44 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 21:45 Yeah, it was, it was great.

Joe Rogan 21:45 So you flew out to, to meet them?

Michael Scott Moore 21:47 Well, I was still living in Berlin and I was following the, the case very closely, um, and the, the, I helped raise some money. The, the lawyers who were running it, um, flew me down there, um, and that was really nice. And it was nice for the guys too, because they were obviously confused. There was nothing but very well-meaning but completely anonymous people around them, you know. And then they were, they kinda came out of the, um, terminal in Nairobi, and they were still, obviously still sort of a little bit confused. And I tapped one of them on the shoulder and he recognized me and it was pandemonium.

Joe Rogan 22:20 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 22:20 It was, uh, it was, wound up on, uh, Reuters video. I think it's available.

Joe Rogan 22:25 Now, how did you eventually get freed?

Michael Scott Moore 22:27 Uh, the, they, so my mom raised a ransom. Um, she raised it with help from family and friends and also some magazines I'd worked for, and some institutions in the US and, and, uh, Germany. And, um, when she talked the pirates down, um, to $1.6 million, then I, I, I got out. For some reason, at the very end, the pirates came down, like, precipitously, um-

Joe Rogan 22:54 The very end? After two years?

Michael Scott Moore 22:56 At the very end, after th- they were holding on for like, I think they went down to f- four or five million or something like that, and then at the very end they came down to what was on offer.

Joe Rogan 23:05 D- no explanation?

Michael Scott Moore 23:07 Not really, except that from my point of view, um, there were labor, there was a labor unrest stirring among the guards. So in other words, the guards were sick of holding me. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:18 Oh.

Michael Scott Moore 23:18 And so I, um, uh, one day tw- towards the very end, but, um, you know, a few weeks before I got out, one of the guards actually said, "Michael, we might go on strike." (laughs) I'm like-

Joe Rogan 23:29 Strike?

Michael Scott Moore 23:30 "Yeah, do you need some help with that? (laughs) I can go on a hunger strike if you want." They're like, "Slow, slow." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:35 Now, there was one thing that I read where y- a guard had left you alone-

Michael Scott Moore 23:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:40 ... with a loaded rifle.

Michael Scott Moore 23:43 It happened more than once.

Joe Rogan 23:45 What is the, what's the thought process there in your mind?

Michael Scott Moore 23:50 Yeah, that was, so especially after the first year or so, um, and until, um-

Joe Rogan 23:54 How many guards are you talking about?

Michael Scott Moore 23:55 We're talking about seven to 15 at an, any given point in, um-

Joe Rogan 24:00 How many bullets are in the gun?

Michael Scott Moore 24:01 The, well, it was a Kalashnikov, so s- a, a minimum of 16. Um-

Joe Rogan 24:06 That's not enough.

Michael Scott Moore 24:07 It's not enough. Um, and there were, there were, there were always a few guards who were asleep and a few guards who were awake. And so, you go through this thing in your head. You think, "Well, I can grab the gun, I can kill a few guys, but it would be suicidal." Um, but I went through various scenarios in my head all the time.You know, that was a, that was a very big temptation because th- the guns just lay around like junk, you know. Um, and that was, that was a dark period because the question was not just, "Can I blast my way out and live?" but also, "Should I just take care of it-

Joe Rogan 24:50 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 24:50 ... and kill myself now?" Because I knew that I was causing a whole lot of trouble for my family at home and there were probably military plans to come get me, which would put, you know, SEALs at risk or special operators at risk. And so-

Joe Rogan 25:02 Whoosh.

Michael Scott Moore 25:02 ... maybe it's better to just check out. And so that was on my mind, uh, often, especially during the second year.

Joe Rogan 25:10 Were they sympathetic characters in any way? I mean, did you, when you were around them for long periods of time and you're taking into consideration this life that's been thrust upon them.

Michael Scott Moore 25:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:23 And this is the environment they grew up in and this is their... I mean, you, you had to have at least in some way gotten to know them.

Michael Scott Moore 25:30 Sure. And I went there thinking, "Well, you know, I'm gonna tell their story somehow."

Joe Rogan 25:33 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 25:34 Um-

Joe Rogan 25:34 Did you tell them that?

Michael Scott Moore 25:36 Yeah. But by the time I was captured, that didn't matter, you know. Um, uh, yes, of course, they w- they were, especially the ones who wanted to talk to me, of course they were sympathetic. Um, they're, they're poor people. So the, th- even if it's not true that most pirates are frustrated fishermen, probably only about 20% of them are, uh, all of 'em are poor. All of 'em need jobs and that's why they became pirates. Um, you have to layer on top of that the fact that it, a khat habit is extremely, ruinously expensive in Dr- in Somalia. Um-

Joe Rogan 26:10 Where does khat come from?

Michael Scott Moore 26:11 Khat comes from highlands. So it has to be grown in the mountains of Ethiopia or Kenya and flown in fresh. Uh, it can't be grown in a, uh, you know, flat, hot desert region like, like Somalia or Yemen, but that's where it's popular, especially among Muslims who can't drink alcohol. So, um, it's, th- there's a, there's a whole trade in that region in the, of the world. Uh, and most of, most of the time it's legal. I think they only ill- i- illegalized it in, uh, Britain, for example, in 2014.

Joe Rogan 26:40 Really?

Michael Scott Moore 26:40 Yeah. I think it's illegal here, but, um, the trade, it just flows like water in that, uh, in, in Somalia and the, the Arabian Peninsula.

Joe Rogan 26:49 So the voluntary coast guard of Somalia, what we've been led to believe that this is how it all started out.

Michael Scott Moore 26:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:54 How did that narrative get established?

Michael Scott Moore 26:57 Uh, so once they started to capture big ships, uh, they fell back on that story which had been true up 'til then, which was, "We're just defending our coastline from fishing ships."

Joe Rogan 27:07 So it started that way.

Michael Scott Moore 27:08 It started that way.

Joe Rogan 27:09 So it did start... Yeah, no. That-

Michael Scott Moore 27:10 Yes. No. That-

Joe Rogan 27:10 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 27:10 That's true and the roots of it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:11 Okay. So that's what I'd heard.

Michael Scott Moore 27:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:13 What I'd heard is that it would s- it had started because not just because people were fishing out there, but because they were dumping toxic waste.

Michael Scott Moore 27:19 Mm-hmm. Also, um-

Joe Rogan 27:20 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 27:21 And that was, that's also true. Um, the mafia was dumping wa- had a, uh, had a, uh-

Joe Rogan 27:27 The mafia?

Michael Scott Moore 27:28 Yeah. There wa- there were actual, it's been sort of uncovered by I- Italian journalists, but, uh, the Italian mafia had found a way to bring waste for, you know, a certain amount of money, um, down to some place where they thought nobody would see it again. Um, and that, w- some of it washed ashore in 2004 with the, um, Indonesian tsunami that actually reached that part of, um, East Africa. So some of those big things that the, th- the Italians dumped over the side of their boats wound up on the beach in Somalia.

Joe Rogan 28:03 Oh, so an actual physical vat or something?

Michael Scott Moore 28:06 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:06 That they could see what it was.

Michael Scott Moore 28:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:07 And then they-

Michael Scott Moore 28:08 And I saw one of 'em. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:09 Really?

Michael Scott Moore 28:09 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:10 What was in it?

Michael Scott Moore 28:12 I don't know, but it was a great big, uh, t- sort of orange-

Joe Rogan 28:16 Great big, like-

Michael Scott Moore 28:17 Weird, weirdly shaped cube.

Joe Rogan 28:18 How large?

Michael Scott Moore 28:19 Uh, taller than me. So at least eight feet t- uh, square.

Joe Rogan 28:22 And i- it had been used to contain some sort of toxic waste?

Michael Scott Moore 28:25 That, that's what my fixer told me. So, but I had seen pictures, similar pictures in, uh, documentaries so, uh, I think it was probably true. It's described in the book just briefly. But, um, I, that's the kind of thing that happened, certainly. Um, the, the Italians were not, or the, the mafia was not being very, uh, you know, they were being criminals too. So-

Joe Rogan 28:49 Yeah. That's, uh, that's their business.

Michael Scott Moore 28:51 That's their business.

Joe Rogan 28:52 Um, did you watch the Tom Hanks movie?

Michael Scott Moore 28:55 (laughs) I watched 45 minutes of the Tom Hanks movie in Somalia.

Joe Rogan 29:01 In Somalia?

Michael Scott Moore 29:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:02 While you were captive?

Michael Scott Moore 29:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:03 Holy shit.

Michael Scott Moore 29:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:06 What is that like?

Michael Scott Moore 29:07 Well, I, so I knew the, I knew Captain Phillips was gonna be a movie when I left. That was already clear, right?

Joe Rogan 29:13 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 29:13 Spielberg had already announced it or something like that, so they-

Joe Rogan 29:15 So they had announced it when you left and you got to watch it-

Michael Scott Moore 29:18 When I was there.

Joe Rogan 29:19 ... in Somalia?

Michael Scott Moore 29:20 Yeah. Because by the time, this was towards the end of my captivity, I had a shortwave radio, so I was listening to the radio. By the time it came out and went to the Oscars, it was all over the BBC, so I knew about it. I knew it was out. I'm like, "Okay. So I'm missing Captain Phillips, whatever. Wonder what that's like." And then (laughs) one day, all the guards got new smartphones, pretty fancy smartphones. And they were apparently loaded with a new collection of films and music and whatever to keep them occupied. One afternoon, I saw two guards just completely rapt by some sort of film on the phone, and I heard some American voices and I'm like, "I wonder what this film is." And finally I said, "Fuck me. That's Tom Hanks." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:03 (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 30:03 So I knew what they were watching. And two weeks later, one of the guards actually sh- handed me the phone and said, you know, "Michael, look." And so I saw about 45 minutes of it.

Joe Rogan 30:12 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 30:13 And of course when he handed me the phone, the first thing I went, that went through my mind is like, "Okay, I'm gonna call mom." (laughs) You know, just find a way to-

Joe Rogan 30:18 Right. Right. Right.

Michael Scott Moore 30:18 ... turn down the volume and, and, and call California. Um, uh, he took the phone away before I did that. But I had a whole plan. I developed a whole plan while I was watching Captain Phillips, you know, get on the plane in Boston-Logan or whatever. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:33 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 30:35 It was... So atmospherically, I, it was a pretty good, pretty well done movie, but there were a couple of scenes where, that would, just wouldn't have happened in real life, you know.

Joe Rogan 30:42 I didn't watch the movie.

Michael Scott Moore 30:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:43 So what was, uh, inaccurate about it?

Michael Scott Moore 30:45 Uh, there was one scene where there was some selection of pirates on the beach, so in public, um, and I thought, "Gosh, how did they get that? That's, that's r- I've never even heard of that before." And then I, then, uh, I thought about it and thought, and realized, well, that, yeah, actually it wouldn't happen like that in public. That was just, uh, for dramatic purposes. Um, you know, I was, I was envious of their material at first and then I realized, "No, they made that up." Um, so things like that. But the pirates were fascinated to see people like them, and in some cases their friends, um, portrayed on screen. Uh, even though we all know how it, you know, the movie ends very badly for Somali pirates, so.

Joe Rogan 31:25 So they knew about the story-

Michael Scott Moore 31:27 Oh.

Joe Rogan 31:27 ... that that was based on?

Michael Scott Moore 31:29 Yeah, no question. Not only that, but one of them said that he was friends with one of the pirates involved.

Joe Rogan 31:34 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 31:34 And I believe him actually. He had the right clan affiliation for that. So it's, it's quite possible.

Joe Rogan 31:39 What was it like to see them watching their story being depicted on the other side of the planet?

Michael Scott Moore 31:45 Well, that's what was weird is that they, they were so fascinated by it. But we, you know, otherwise they didn't necessarily like to talk about bad news for pirates or, uh, you know, like I said, when the hostages were released, um, or rescued in the first few days of my captivity, um, I kept hearing that the hostages had been killed. Um, so they like to spin things in a, in a good way for, for pirates in general. So I, I just would've assumed they would just ignore Captain Phillips 'cause it ends so badly. They were just fascinated. They really were.

Joe Rogan 32:21 And w- so what was daily life like for you? Like you, do you eat with them?

Michael Scott Moore 32:25 (smacks lips) Well, I... Separately, but sometimes in the same room. They, they m- made very bad m- (stutters) uh, food, boiled beans and, like, flavorless boiled goat and that kinda thing.

Joe Rogan 32:39 (clears throat)

Michael Scott Moore 32:40 Um, but they would eat from a communal platter, s- sort of elsewhere within sight. Um, I didn't have to eat from the same platter for, as, as, uh, the-

Joe Rogan 32:50 They eat by hand?

Michael Scott Moore 32:51 Yeah, by hand. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:52 Yeah. That's, uh, very common in that part of the world?

Michael Scott Moore 32:55 Yeah, it really is because utensils just aren't, aren't that common. And they really liked spaghetti, so they'd sort of wrap the spaghetti around your fingers. And I, I had done that as a free man, you know, I sort of sat w- with Somalis and, and ate that way. But as a, as a hostage, I was in no mood to be that, uh, uh, you know, that friendly.

Joe Rogan 33:13 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 33:14 They, they gave me a fork and I could eat my, on my own. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:18 So, w- how, like, what kind of physical state were you in after two and a half years of this?

Michael Scott Moore 33:22 Yeah, it was pretty bad. I was... My, um, my immune system had started to fall apart. So I don't go into detail too much about this in the book, but I had a staph infection on my skin and some other kind of a f- infection in my ear, and I was just... Something in my lungs, I was just not very... I was sick. Um, and I was sick constantly for several months before I got out. So I knew something had really changed and I think the pirates were aware of that too, slowly. Um-

Joe Rogan 33:51 And you think that probably, possibly contributed to them lowering your ransom?

Michael Scott Moore 33:55 Possibly. But, but I, uh... You know, they, not that they were sym- sympathetic, but uh, uh, it's possible they saw me sort of reaching, reaching my physical limit slowly.

Joe Rogan 34:07 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 34:08 Slowly. So it's, it's not-

Joe Rogan 34:09 Staph infection can get you pretty quickly, no?

Michael Scott Moore 34:11 Yeah. I mean, they, it, it wound up just being that, but it was ra- raising boils on my skin and they knew about that, so.

Joe Rogan 34:20 That's not that long ago, 2012.

Michael Scott Moore 34:23 It was two, 2014 was-

Joe Rogan 34:25 When you were released?

Michael Scott Moore 34:25 ... when I was released and had the infection.

Joe Rogan 34:29 I mean, four years ago, that's nothing.

Michael Scott Moore 34:32 Pushing four years now, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:33 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 34:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:34 What does, what does it feel like now to be free? Do you, do you still have, do you have PTSD from it? Do you get...

Michael Scott Moore 34:42 (smacks lips) Um, well, now I can be happy about it. I think the day I was released I was sort of... I felt better in stages, but I wa- it wasn't a sudden, you know, euphoria. Um, now I can be, really happy about it. It took me about a year to get back to full strength and the symptoms of PTSD that I showed, um, when I first got out, which included like hyper, hyper vigilance, um, went away slowly as I got physically stronger.

Joe Rogan 35:10 Hyper vigilance being like wake up in the middle of the night, nightmares, or-

Michael Scott Moore 35:14 That, well, that, uh, nightmares only happened within the first year. Um, waking up in the middle of the night, that still happens. I still don't sleep too well. Hyper vigilance, I mean out in public, too many people around, you know, like you hear with vets. Um, and I was aware of that as a symptom and, um, I felt it first when we were out in public in Nairobi and I turned to this, uh, FBI psychologist who was with me and I said, uh, you know, "Am I hyper vigilant?" He said, "Maybe." And then I said, "Are you here because, you know, I might have PTSD?" He said, "We don't like to put a label on anything." And that was his attitude towards me. That was the tack he took, and, uh, in my case at least, it was right. Um, eventually he said... I said, "Shouldn't I be treated for PTSD or shouldn't I be going to regular talk therapy or something like that?" And he said, "You know, you don't wanna pathologize anything."

Joe Rogan 36:03 Mm.

Michael Scott Moore 36:04 In other words, "You don't wanna create mentally another condition for you, for you to recover from. You know, it's enough work for your mind and your body to recover quite naturally. They know how to do it from the, all that trauma."

Joe Rogan 36:16 That's very interesting 'cause I've heard people talk about that with other things.

Michael Scott Moore 36:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:20 Particularly with war.

Michael Scott Moore 36:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:22 That you're, you're better off not deciding what you have.

Michael Scott Moore 36:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:27 Or not being told what you have.

Michael Scott Moore 36:28 Mm-hmm. Uh, in my case, that's true. I mean, uh, who knows? The, I think PTSD can be so complicated there.... you know, their pharmaceutical solutions-

Joe Rogan 36:37 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 36:37 ... and that kind of thing, for some people. Um, the body and mind know how to recover.

Joe Rogan 36:42 So-

Michael Scott Moore 36:42 You have to... You, you have to let them.

Joe Rogan 36:44 Do they give you techniques to recover? As in, in instead of explaining or discussing what the issue is, do they give you techniques to feel better or to, to establish more normal existence?

Michael Scott Moore 36:58 Uh, no. I di- I mean, I didn't get a checklist, but, uh, the psychologist would say, you know, "If something's bothering you, write it down." Um, but he knew I was a writer. Um, he... They made sure they knew that I had a loving family around me when I got back and a, and a great circle of friends in Berlin. Uh, that's really important. Um, I think everybody finds their own way. I mean, I, I knew I was weak. I mean, I was just-

Joe Rogan 37:23 Physically.

Michael Scott Moore 37:23 ... like a wraith, you know-

Joe Rogan 37:24 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 37:24 ... when I got out. Um-

Joe Rogan 37:25 How much weight did you lose?

Michael Scott Moore 37:26 I, I lost about 40 pounds. And, um, when I w- when I first came out and walked around in Berlin, Berlin's a walking city, so I tried to lead like a normal day. Um, my knees swelled up and my ankles swelled up, and they were really painful. So it was like I'd just played a game of football or something.

Joe Rogan 37:47 You weren't moving while you were there?

Michael Scott Moore 37:49 Yeah, not enough. I did yoga, but I, uh, I didn't go for a jog around the room or something, like you sometimes hear from prisoners.

Joe Rogan 37:56 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 37:56 If I'd done that, I think they would've been so s- startled, they, they would've shot me. (laughs) Uh, but I was not in any kind of shape for, for normal life when I got out. And in fact, one day when I got back from Berlin, I tried to run for a streetcar. I just didn't have the musculature for it. I simply didn't have a stride to run. I could not run.

Joe Rogan 38:17 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 38:17 I thought that was really weird. Um, but one of the doctors, um, who tested me said, "Well, you have a protein deficiency." And once I started to take care of that and I went consciously to the gym and made sure I got stronger and also put on more muscle, um, the mental things sort of took care of themselves too. So, there's... That body-mind connection was really important.

Joe Rogan 38:39 And when they're telling you this, that you have a protein deficiency, that you ne- you know, you should exercise and, and take care of your body, and this is im- improving, is... Are, are they giving you guidelines like, "This is s- This is probably a good idea to try to do this"? Is... I mean, uh, uh, are, are there any strategies that people have to deal with coming out of long-term incarceration?

Michael Scott Moore 39:05 N- not specific ones. Uh, I think, uh, it w- it was clear to everyone that I was easily overwhelmed. So, um, y- y- you know, at one point, my family sat down with me with all the paperwork that had to be taken care of, and, uh, I could only deal with that for, like, an hour at a time. So... And the debriefing with-

Joe Rogan 39:21 Paperwork?

Michael Scott Moore 39:22 Oh, m- um, th- bank things to sign and that sort of thing. Um-

Joe Rogan 39:28 How so? Like-

Michael Scott Moore 39:29 Well, just l- all my affairs were in somebody else's hands when I was in-

Joe Rogan 39:32 For the two and a half years?

Michael Scott Moore 39:33 For the two and a half years.

Joe Rogan 39:34 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 39:34 And so we had to sort of r- rectify a lot of that. Um, you know, I cou- I couldn't plow through it in an afternoon or in a week. I had to do it in stages, and, uh, it was the same thing with, like, a debriefing with the FBI, which I did for three weeks. I couldn't always do it for an entire day.

Joe Rogan 39:49 What would happen?

Michael Scott Moore 39:50 Uh... (laughs) My brain would, like, actually seize up. I mean, I actually w- would just... I got... I mean, you said earlier when I talk about it, I go like this. My whole body would, like, constrict, and I would-

Joe Rogan 40:04 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 40:04 ... I would s- simply... Uh, part of me would just shut down.

Joe Rogan 40:07 Uh, you've, you've leveled off now, physically? Like your shoulders-

Michael Scott Moore 40:11 Physically, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:11 Um, but I'm looking at you right now from the m- our conversation.

Michael Scott Moore 40:14 Yeah, but I don't feel-

Joe Rogan 40:15 When, when you started talking about it, your shoulders, it seemed like, started to almost visibly rise up.

Michael Scott Moore 40:21 Probably.

Joe Rogan 40:21 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 40:22 Um, but I'm saying when I first got out, I w- I would-

Joe Rogan 40:25 Must have been much more exaggerated.

Michael Scott Moore 40:27 I was paralytic.

Joe Rogan 40:27 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 40:27 No, I mean, I, I just... Something inside me just shut down. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:32 So, uh, it... You're... It just wouldn't... You, you just didn't have the capacity to sit down and concentrate on anything?

Michael Scott Moore 40:39 It wasn't concentration. It was a sense of overwhelm- yeah, yeah, well, uh, concentrating on too many things at once, I think. Um, it was also... I was also overwhelmed by too many friends, you know, too many people in the room, uh, be- because too many social cues to read. Um, I didn't have that with the pirates. It was real clear. I was the hostage. They were the guards. In some sense, we were enemies, and that was it. And we had real simple l- uh, things to say to each other, and that was it. And that was my life for, for a couple years after the, um, after the ship. It was not complex. And so when I got out, uh, the complexities of, you know, a more comfortable life, but a m- you know, more elaborate life, uh, were really difficult.

Joe Rogan 41:19 Yeah, obviously you were aware at the time that you were struggling with this. You were aware that you-

Michael Scott Moore 41:22 Oh.

Joe Rogan 41:22 ... it was difficult.

Michael Scott Moore 41:23 Real clear.

Joe Rogan 41:24 But what... Were you confused by that difficulty?

Michael Scott Moore 41:29 No, not confused. I wasn't sure how I was gonna recover, but I, I knew to take it slow, and taking it slow was important.

Joe Rogan 41:36 And how d- how did you ultimately recover?

Michael Scott Moore 41:40 T- uh, yeah. One, one day at a time, like that. I mean, I consciously got better physically. I mean, I consciously did yoga and went to, went to the gym, consciously ate well. My, my, um, my doctor said don't follow a vegetarian diet, um, but eat a full diet and make sure you get enough protein.

Joe Rogan 41:56 Why not have a vegetarian diet?

Michael Scott Moore 41:57 He said you need protein.

Joe Rogan 41:59 But you, you, you know-

Michael Scott Moore 42:00 You need a lot of protein. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:01 A lot.

Michael Scott Moore 42:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:01 You need animal protein-

Michael Scott Moore 42:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:02 ... specifically?

Michael Scott Moore 42:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:03 Yeah. Now, what is... Y- your situation now is that you said you sti- you still have a hard time sleeping.

Michael Scott Moore 42:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:13 And what... Is it a nightmare issue or is it an anxiety issue?

Michael Scott Moore 42:18 No, not nightmares. But for some reason when it gets... So, in Somalia, when it came time to go to bed, um, at least for a l- a long period, they would chain up my feet, and I would have to lie on a mattress under a mosquito net, and that was it for 12 hours. So, now when it comes time to sleep, um, instead of ti- tired, I get anxious.... and then it's possible that I, uh, I might wake up, you know, fully awake after only four hours. So... I take melatonin. It's nothing, it's noth- y- you know, I don't, I don't take hard drugs to sleep, but I, I take a little assistance.

Joe Rogan 42:53 Yeah. Wow. Now, this book that you wrote of The Desert and the Sea, how, how difficult was it to sit down in front of a computer and sort of recapture these thoughts and transcribe them?

Michael Scott Moore 43:09 Yeah. The, well, that... So that was also sort of blood and sweat. Um, my... The research (laughs) was blood, sweat and tears and so was-

Joe Rogan 43:16 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 43:16 ... the writing. But, um, I did know at least the s- the facts of the story, so I put those down first, and then we went back and did how it felt. So the em- putting everything down, which a writer likes to do, you know, all at once, in one sort of great m- act of creation, um, that wo- that would've been a little overwhelming. So I did it in layers, and tha- that was the way to go.

Joe Rogan 43:42 What were you like before this? And what are you like now? And what's different?

Michael Scott Moore 43:47 (smacks lips) I think my, my basic self is the same, but I, uh, I, I'm more patient. Um, I'm more grateful. So just getting out alive, um, made me certainly grateful to be around. Uh, it was great to see my family and friends again. (smacks lips) And if I ever f- start to feel ungrateful for something, I have this well of memory that I can go back to. Um, that's essential. And I think in Somalia, I also learned to forgive, which was, you know, not an easy process. And it's something... But I think it's so- something very essential.

Joe Rogan 44:24 How so?

Michael Scott Moore 44:25 (inhales deeply)

Joe Rogan 44:25 How did you learn to forgive?

Michael Scott Moore 44:27 Um, so we talked about picking up a Kalashnikov. I was gonna do that. I thought about doing that, and it was an internal debate for a really long time, until one point where, um, I actually heard something on the radio from the pope, the new pope, I'd never, you know, even seen before. (smacks lips) And he gave a very good homily about what forgiveness meant, and that resonated. And at some point, I made a conscious decision to forgive the guards who were around me. You know, these are the lowe- lowest ranking guys, but they were making my life miserable. And I m- made a conscious decision to forgive them. And I had to do that over and over, and that made my mind a whole lot more, more stable and settl- settled, which means that unless I had done that, I probably would've picked up a gun and, and killed myself, if not them, or both.

Joe Rogan 45:19 That's fascinating that a speech by the pope could resonate so strongly with you while you're in captivity.

Michael Scott Moore 45:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:27 Just forgiveness.

Michael Scott Moore 45:28 Forgiveness. D- it wouldn't have had to be by the pope, but he, he was pretty good.

Joe Rogan 45:32 That's something that people play- pay lip service to. (smacks lips) And, you know, you hear s- people saying, "You should live a life of forgiveness."

Michael Scott Moore 45:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:39 "And it's healthier for you." But no one can really understand that the way you have.

Michael Scott Moore 45:44 Mm-hmm. For me, it was life and death. (inhales deeply)

Joe Rogan 45:47 Wow. Man, it's so... I mean, I can't wait to read your book.

Michael Scott Moore 45:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:51 It is, it is a crazy story. Uh, uh, y- your... D- I mean, th- it's just such an insane experience-

Michael Scott Moore 45:59 Yeah, it was.

Joe Rogan 46:00 ... that your, y- your just your well of experiences, like, what you can draw upon is (smacks lips) so different from most people that you're interacting with. You m- you must almost feel like you're going through life interacting with privileged children.

Michael Scott Moore 46:16 Sometimes. But the, th- s- so first of all, I'm just very happy to be back in-

Joe Rogan 46:21 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 46:22 ... uh, in the world I grew up in. So th- that's the main thing. Um, but yeah, that comes up sometimes.

Joe Rogan 46:28 You know, when people complain about things?

Michael Scott Moore 46:30 For example.

Joe Rogan 46:31 "Oh, it's so fucking hot out."

Michael Scott Moore 46:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:33 (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 46:34 Or p- you know-

Joe Rogan 46:35 Yeah, you should try hot in Somalia prison where you're shackled to a bed.

Michael Scott Moore 46:38 Right, exactly.

Joe Rogan 46:39 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 46:40 Or, uh, you know, idiots in traffic. I'm, I'm a much more-

Joe Rogan 46:43 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 46:43 ... patient driver, and so is my mother, by the way. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:45 Oh, I'm sure. So happy to get her son back, right?

Michael Scott Moore 46:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:48 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 46:48 She's the heroine of this story. I mean, she really, she really took a, the, a, y- you know, an enormous amount of suffering.

Joe Rogan 46:56 What was it like to see her after two years and eight months?

Michael Scott Moore 46:58 Oh, it was incredible. No, I mean, it was, uh... Obviously, she was on my mind and all my friends and family were on my mind while I was in Somalia, and just to see somebody that I'd been thinking about all this time in a sort of hypothetical way, um, again, in, you know, real life, in a way that I really thought I wouldn't, was overwhelming. It was really, really fantastic.

Joe Rogan 47:19 Now, had you gone to dangerous places for journalism before Somalia?

Michael Scott Moore 47:25 Yes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:25 Where had you gone?

Michael Scott Moore 47:26 Uh, so for the, my second book, um, Sweetness and Blood, I served in Gaza. Uh...

Joe Rogan 47:31 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 47:32 Um, and I'd been to Northern Iraq and some other places, uh, but this was easily the most dangerous. I mean-

Joe Rogan 47:38 What did you do in Gaza?

Michael Scott Moore 47:39 Uh, I w- I went to see the Gaza Surf Club, and I actually went surfing with them.

Joe Rogan 47:43 The Gaza Surf Cl-

Michael Scott Moore 47:45 This exists, yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:46 What is that?

Michael Scott Moore 47:48 Um, (clears throat) so it's a group of Palestinians who like to surf, but who don't have enough surfboards, and th- so they organized into a club, first to share a couple of surfboards that they had found and managed to, managed to buy, um, and also to receive donations from a group of surfers in Tel Aviv who thought, "These guys should have boards." And so their... a relationship grew up between a group in Tel Aviv called, uh, Surfing for Peace and the Gaza Surf Club.

Joe Rogan 48:16 So Jews in Tel Aviv-

Michael Scott Moore 48:18 Yep.

Joe Rogan 48:18 ... are donating surfboards-

Michael Scott Moore 48:20 Surfboards to Palestinians.

Joe Rogan 48:21 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 48:22 It's completely wonderful. It's a, it's a grassroots piece of... initiative. You know, it's been going on for years now, but, um, m- one of the eloquent things that the leader of, um, (smacks lips) the, the Surfing for Peace group said was, you know, "We're not getting anywhere on an official level, so we better do something on sort of a grassroots level." I think it's marvelous.

Joe Rogan 48:42 Wow. Um, what do you do now?

Michael Scott Moore 48:45 Oh, I... So (laughs) -... seeking out danger was never the point, you know.

Joe Rogan 48:50 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 48:50 I tried not to shrink from it, but, uh, that was not, you know, I'm not a thrill seeker, and that's not the, what I'm trying to base my career on, or anything like that. Um, right now, I'm writing a novel, so that should keep me seated for a while. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:02 What's it about?

Michael Scott Moore 49:03 (clicks tongue) Uh, it's about drones.

Joe Rogan 49:05 Drones? Oh, that doesn't sound peaceful. (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 49:11 It's not, uh, but I'm not gonna say anymore about it at the moment.

Joe Rogan 49:14 Yeah. I get it. Um, do you ever anticipate yourself traveling for journalism again or-

Michael Scott Moore 49:20 Sure. Oh, tr- travel, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:22 But just nothing like this?

Michael Scott Moore 49:23 Uh, yeah. No, I don't need to do dangerous travel anytime soon, no.

Joe Rogan 49:27 No. Yeah, some people just wanna jump right back into the fire.

Michael Scott Moore 49:31 (clicks tongue) Yeah, that's not... But that was not (sighs) the point in the first place.

Joe Rogan 49:35 Right. What was the point? Like, what did you hope to get out of this trip to Somalia?

Michael Scott Moore 49:40 Well, so one, one thing that I noticed while I was watching the trial in, um, in, in Hamburg was this clash between a modern liberal state, which is what Germany is, um, and so is America by the way, um, and an archaic crime. And Germany, in fact, is newer than the United States in the sense that its constitution was written in 1949 when nobody was thinking about piracy. So the laws against piracy are extremely lenient in, in German law in a way that they're not in Spanish or American law. Um, we have laws that date back to when it was a capital crime, (clicks tongue) and basically, the Germans didn't know how to deal with these guys. And, uh, I thought it was fascinating in the first place that this ancient crime had revived after a couple centuries of relative quiet, you know. And, um, so I... That tension on its own was interesting, and that was worth the book because nobody was quite approaching it that way, you know. Uh, so that tension is still interesting, and that tension is still alive. So there are certainly threats to modern liberal states going on around the world.

Joe Rogan 50:48 So w- what were the trials in Berlin?

Michael Scott Moore 50:51 Uh, there was a trial in Hamburg, and, uh, I was going back and forth from Berlin. Uh, it was 10 guys from Somalia who, ah, tried to hijack a cargo ship that belonged to a, um, a German, uh, ship, ship company and, that was based in Hamburg. Uh, I think they were overpowered by the Dutch n- navy, but the Dutch handed them over to the Germans. In fact, the Dut- Dutch said, "Okay, we'll do this as long as we don't have to try them," because everyone knew from the outset that there was gonna be a, a problem, uh, trying Somalis. Um-

Joe Rogan 51:23 Well, in what way?

Michael Scott Moore 51:25 Um, in Europe in general, but especially in, in Germany, I think there's a, actually, a, a law against shipping them back to Somalia because it's considered not a safe place. Um, so-

Joe Rogan 51:37 For them?

Michael Scott Moore 51:38 For them, even for them, and I think that's nuts. Once they were convicted, I think they should've been deported after they served their time.

Joe Rogan 51:44 That's so bizarre.

Michael Scott Moore 51:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:45 But, but if they were shipped back to Somalia, how would they be treated? Like, what is the government like in Somalia? I mean-

Michael Scott Moore 51:50 Good question.

Joe Rogan 51:51 ... it must be insanely corrupt.

Michael Scott Moore 51:52 I asked some of my pirates about that. Um, it, it is corrupt. It's e- it's either corrupt or nonexistent. So the, the government of Somalia is, is focused around Mogadishu, and it just doesn't have that much power in the provinces. And I was in one of the, one of the provinces, and because the provinces don't get a whole lot of money from Mogadishu, so they, they run their own businesses with, in some cases, piracy. Um, I asked one of my guards what would happen if a pirate went and got thrown into jail in some other country and then came back and tried this, you know, set up friendships again with his old pirate buddies or whatever. You know, would he be killed? Would he be in, in danger? He said, "No, no. No problem." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:33 (laughs) They'd probably let you right back in.

Michael Scott Moore 52:35 No problem. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:37 Yeah, I mean, is there any sort of punishment for, for them when they get back to Somalia?

Michael Scott Moore 52:43 No.

Joe Rogan 52:43 Is there any penal system or...

Michael Scott Moore 52:45 Uh, potentially, there is, yeah. So there-

Joe Rogan 52:47 But that's not considered a crime, right?

Michael Scott Moore 52:48 There are... Yes, it is. So there, there are l- laws on the books, especially in the regions, um, and even prisons for pirates. Um, the problem is that clan relationships are a lot more important than newly written laws. Um, and so even pirate who go to jail, this was true about one boss in my case, uh, might get out again. So this guy, this guy who was a pirate boss in my case, wound up in jail while I was still captive for one month in Mogadishu and wound up walking.

Joe Rogan 53:17 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 53:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:18 And he was captive for piracy?

Michael Scott Moore 53:20 Mm, I think for having weapons that the government didn't expect to see in one of his houses. So, uh, it was something off to the side, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 53:30 So it's this really sketchy system of bartering and payoffs and-

Michael Scott Moore 53:37 It's who you know and who-

Joe Rogan 53:38 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 53:38 ... you're related to, and the, there are other prisons for, you know, low-ranking pirates in Puntland and also in Galkayo where I was. Um, it's a crapshoot how much time those guys are gonna spend in jail.

Joe Rogan 53:51 Whoosh. And what happened with the people in Germany?

Michael Scott Moore 53:54 (clicks tongue) They got a total of seven years, I think, or an average of seven years.

Joe Rogan 53:59 In Germany?

Michael Scott Moore 54:00 In Germany.

Joe Rogan 54:01 And then what happened when they were released?

Michael Scott Moore 54:03 Nothing.

Joe Rogan 54:05 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 54:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:06 So probably-

Michael Scott Moore 54:06 That's a whole separate story, which I haven't e- even, you know, started, started to address, but as it turned out, a few of them went back to Somalia anyway.

Joe Rogan 54:14 And probably went right back into the business.

Michael Scott Moore 54:17 (clicks tongue) Uh, well, or something else, uh, you know, illicit or profitable or whatever. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:22 And there's a wide variety of people that they target, right? They target people on individual crafts. They target large boats, commercial-

Michael Scott Moore 54:31 Yep.

Joe Rogan 54:31 ... vessels.

Michael Scott Moore 54:32 Yep. They, they did all of that. I mean, in fact, I met hostages from all of those, y- you know, from the whole range. So the-

Joe Rogan 54:39 How many hostages did you meet over the two years and eight months?

Michael Scott Moore 54:41 Um, a total of 30. So the, the crew on the fishing ship, the tuna vessel was 28, and then I met two Seychellois fishermen. The two guys from the Seychelles were small time, so they were just on a small craft.

Joe Rogan 54:54 What is Seychelles?

Michael Scott Moore 54:55 The Seychelles is a, um, chain of islands off Africa. It's, uh, it's a country that belongs to Africa.... um, but it has a, a French name. Um, the, the guys on the tuna vessel, um, were from a, you know, relatively big ship. The guys from the Seychelles were from a f- small private craft. And I was an example of someone captured on land.

Joe Rogan 55:20 So... And these people that were from the small private cl- craft i- i- i- who were they trying to get money from? Just anyone who knows them? Is that how they, they do this?

Michael Scott Moore 55:29 Yeah. W- whoever.

Joe Rogan 55:31 Anybody they can-

Michael Scott Moore 55:31 Whoever can pay. I mean, uh, of course they ask from the government, but the government doesn't always pay. You know, the given government.

Joe Rogan 55:37 Yeah. Just, it, just the whole system seems so insane that they've got... I mean, th- they keep people for years and years-

Michael Scott Moore 55:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:47 ... and they have just a, a whole collection of them, where they're trying to extract money from people that know them.

Michael Scott Moore 55:54 Yeah. Uh, as it turns out, they're not very good at it. So pirates are in the kidnapping business, but they don't always know what they're doing.

Joe Rogan 56:00 (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 56:01 Um, the, the bosses, I think, got used to, um, demanding a lot of money from shipping companies and finding out that if you hold a ship stubbornly for a long time, uh, you get a lot of money from the insurance company or whatever. Um, I... That, that calculation doesn't work with human beings. So, in other words, everyone else on Earth who f- who negotiates for a human being expects the, the person's price to go down as the time, you know, wears on. And, um, it took a while for pirates to understand that.

Joe Rogan 56:34 Wow. What is it... I mean, when you're dea- you're dealing with all this, like, what, what is it like on your psyche when you're getting two years in, two and a half years in, and you, you, you have some sort of light at the end of the tunnel? What, what is it... What does it feel like?

Michael Scott Moore 56:53 Well, I didn't know there was light at the end of the tunnel. So, um, two years in, that's where, um, m- you know, it was either forgive the guards or, or, or self-destruct. Um, it was also... By then, I had also, uh, deliberately given... let go of ha- having any kind of hope, so that, that was a second survival strategy. I, I had to, um, not hope-

Joe Rogan 57:18 (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 57:18 ... that I was gonna get out, uh, because hoping was... had a downside, you know? It, th- th- that cycle of hope and despair, uh, was extremely damaging, yeah, to my mental well-being. So the... After going through that cycle a few times, I'm like, "Well, I have to find a different way."

Joe Rogan 57:34 Hmm. One of the things that, um, I've gotten out of travel is I think it c- it... your view of the world changes when you see the way people are living in different places. You, you, your spectrum expands.

Michael Scott Moore 57:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:49 You start recognizing like, "Oh, I might be used to Southern California, but this is not how they do things in Ohio."

Michael Scott Moore 57:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:57 "This is not how they do things in Italy. This is not h-"

Michael Scott Moore 58:00 Yep.

Joe Rogan 58:00 When you go as far as being a captive in Somalia, your, your spectrum-

Michael Scott Moore 58:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:10 ... is massive.

Michael Scott Moore 58:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:11 I mean, your view of the world, being entrenched in that life and being with those people while they're chewing this narcotic and carrying around Kalashnikovs and y- yelling at each other in a foreign language and watching fistfights and realizing, like, they don't have anything either.

Michael Scott Moore 58:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:30 What... H- how much has that changed you as a human being, in your, your view of human life on Earth?

Michael Scott Moore 58:37 Well, I think enormously. I mean, I, I... Y- you're right. It expanded my range and my, my understanding of, of what other people think. Um, they obviously come from a completely different perspective in Somalia. Not only are they, um, Muslim and African, but they're also very isolated. So Somalia, as a, as a rule, has always been difficult to penetrate for out- outsiders. That was true when Richard Burton was there in the 19th century too. Um, it's j- it's a closed culture, and, um, they have their own way of thinking. And also the, also the language is not related to most other languages you've heard, unless you, you're familiar with languages in Ethiopia.

Joe Rogan 59:17 Did you learn any of it?

Michael Scott Moore 59:19 Yeah, a little bit. Mm-hmm. But, um, I resisted learning it from the guards. I th- when I was there, I, I thought about it like, um... In, in Berlin, you realize that a lot of East Germans when, um... during the communist era were taught Russian in school, and a lot of them hated it. And I was not in a mood to learn Somalia, Somali once I was a captive.

Joe Rogan 59:43 Hmm.

Michael Scott Moore 59:44 So, um, it was similar to that. I, uh, I l- learned a few words, but I never had a good teacher. Um, and of course, when I was a journalist, I was relying on translators.

Joe Rogan 59:56 I would imagine that as a writer, that spectrum, the expansion of the spectrum... Although there's no way you would ever barter it off or bargain to have those experiences to broaden your spectrum-

Michael Scott Moore 1:00:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:10 ... it, it has to have changed the way you put pen to paper-

Michael Scott Moore 1:00:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 ... and view the world and your, your ability to describe things.

Michael Scott Moore 1:00:18 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it... You, you realize that each individual has certain, certain boundaries, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 1:00:27 And, and certain, certain self-definitions, um, and those self-definitions can be... Uh, they... The, the distance between one individual and another can be enormous, um, but in some sense, also, they're superficial distinctions, so.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Yeah, but th- their inescapable reality is so alien-

Michael Scott Moore 1:00:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:49 ... in comparison to someone who lives in Bel Air.

Michael Scott Moore 1:00:51 Mm-hmm. Oh, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 Just this, this... Just that contrast-

Michael Scott Moore 1:00:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:58 ... between this world that you were so deeply entrenched in for two and... two years and eight months-

Michael Scott Moore 1:01:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 ... like, that has gotta change the way you look at human life.

Michael Scott Moore 1:01:09 Yeah, uh, because the gulf in wealth is so enormous. I mean, they can't imagine the, the amount of money it takes to live in Bel Air and...

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 1:01:17 And the other way around. I mean, it, I think it's very difficult for someone in California to imagine how little you can get by on, um, and how close to the earth some, most people on the planet live.

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 Yeah, there's a statistic that I read once that I, I repeat all the time 'cause it still baffles me, that if you make more than $34,000 a year, you're in the 1% of the world.

Michael Scott Moore 1:01:38 Of the world, yeah, possibly. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:39 Yeah. And that is probably magnified many fold in Ethiopia.

Michael Scott Moore 1:01:46 Yeah, in Ethiopia and Somalia. I mean, it's, it's very, um, y- you know, in some ways, although, th- they want money all the time, especially if they're criminals, um, the, the money that we're used to sort of greasing our path through life around here, um, is just not available. It's just not, not part of the reality.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 What do they do with money when they get it?

Michael Scott Moore 1:02:11 Well, it depends. If, if they're pirates, they splash out on a fancy car or, or cars or something like that.

Joe Rogan 1:02:17 Did you see fancy cars when you were there?

Michael Scott Moore 1:02:19 Sure. Oh, yeah. No. I was placed in fancy cars. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 Really?

Michael Scott Moore 1:02:22 Yeah. No. So the bi- pirates had great cellphones, um, expensive SUVs, um, weapons that they had bought, uh, you know, from abroad in maybe at Weapons Bazaar in Mogadishu or something like that. Uh, but that's not cheap either. Uh, they, they bragged about how the, uh, the bullets cost, like, a dollar each, you know, and that one of them might, might've been wearing a band of 500 bullets. Um, and the cut is expensive. So, lots of things cost an enormous amount of money in Somalia, but if you're a, m- you know, if you're a very ordinary Somali, Somali, you, you're getting by on, you know, less than a dollar a day.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 So, there's the ordinary Somalis who are not criminals.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:04 Or not pirates, at least.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 And then you have-

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:06 And that's the majority.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 The majority.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 And y- then you have these pirates that are essentially running through the streets in Mercedes-Benz SUVs-

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:16 They're like gangsters. They're like gangsters.

Joe Rogan 1:03:18 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:18 And that's, that's actually how one Somali, who had some connection to Germany, um, described them to me. He, you know, he, he was wandering around in Galkayo because it was his hometown in some way, or his ancestr- ancestral town, and he's, he had met some. This was before I got captured. It was like they were, you know, they had rap thumping (laughs) from the SUVs.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Did they really?

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:36 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 American rap?

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:37 Who knows?

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 Who knows?

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:38 There's, there's lots of actually good African rap.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 Really?

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:41 Oh, yeah. Senegalese rap. Have you ever, ever heard West African rap?

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 No.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:45 Really good. Really good.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 No. I'd like to get some because I love music that I don't understand the words to.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:49 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 Yeah.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:50 I can send you some band names.

Joe Rogan 1:03:51 Please do.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:52 I will.

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 Yeah. Oh, those ... Yeah, I, uh, when I write, I like to listen to stin- things I don't understand.

Michael Scott Moore 1:03:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 'Cause it, uh, I can still write and not think about their words.

Michael Scott Moore 1:04:00 Right. Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 Um, when you're around these gangsters, and you, you ... Do you get this sense of, like, "Oh, God," like, they ... "This is ... They need this money." Like, this money, they w- they wanna keep this going.

Michael Scott Moore 1:04:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 They're gonna need more money funneled ... This is just a never-ending cycle.

Michael Scott Moore 1:04:17 That's, that's obviously how it seemed, yeah. Um, the ... And that's true. I think some of the guards, some of the l- lower-ranking and maybe some of the gentler guards, the ones who got along with me, um, did not necessarily wanna be gangsters for the rest of their lives. So, I think for some people, the plan was get a bunch of money and get out, you know? But, um, as a, as an operation, yeah, it just needed ... There was no limit to the money they needed or wanted. And so-

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 1:04:47 ... the ... so in the end, the, the real motivation is not, you know, illegal fishing, but greed.

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 And do they have any sort ... Well, i- it ... But it initially started with il- il- illegal fishing though, right?

Michael Scott Moore 1:04:58 Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 Do they have any sort of ultimate goal? Like, "One day, I'm gonna retire. I'm gonna, you know, have a mansion in the Hills."

Michael Scott Moore 1:05:06 Yeah. So I think individually they do, and some bosses get a mansion, and, and a big compound, and, and live large, and then they, uh, they try and hire younger, younger pirates and that kinda thing. Um, the thing about piracy and also terrorism ... So Al-Shabaab is the Al-Qaeda l- aligned group in Somalia. Al-Q- uh, Al-Shabaab and pirates are the two main corporate structures in Somalia. So in other words, if you're a young man and you know how to use a gun, those are the places you join up with if you want to be upwardly mobile. If you want, um, to impress somebody and, and get promotions and make money and, and marry a wife, uh, those were the most available options. Otherwise, you know, you had scarce jobs, um, m- maybe some frustrating sheep herding or f- or fishing. Um, uh, more interesting jobs in the cities, but not very many. And then, maybe a pretty well-paid UN job, you know, if you're lucky. So, th- these things are very tempting for young, young Somalis. And even if the pirate bosses are no longer capturing ships on the water, it's fallen off quite a bit in the last few years, um, they've still got other businesses going on, including, like I said, human smuggling and, and gun smuggling.

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 Does anybody have aspirations to get out? Did you have any ... Did you run into-

Michael Scott Moore 1:06:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 ... anybody that understands that the rest of the world ... Like, there are opportunities to live in a place where you don't have this kind of systemic violence and crime? And-

Michael Scott Moore 1:06:32 Yes, definitely. I mean, I think, um, they don't necessarily understand the rest of the world very well, but they know that Somalia's in trouble. Um, and so a lot of people wanted to get out, and some of the guards t- talked to me about wanting to go to Europe. But one of them who did, uh, and I describe him in the book, he wound up getting married in Mogadishu. (laughs) Uh, and so I, you know, I wound up with a, uh, wedding photograph from him.

Joe Rogan 1:06:57 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 1:06:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 1:06:59 So he wound up not going.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 Did you-

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:00 Which was smart, 'cause-

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 ... stay in touch with them?

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:03 (inhales deeply) Not exactly. One guy, um, found me on Facebook and of course-

Joe Rogan 1:07:08 Jesus Christ. One of your captors?

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:10 One of the guards, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 Phew.

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:13 ... the one of the gentler guys, one of the guys that-

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 What was that like when you get a message on Facebook-

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:17 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:17 ... from someone who held a gun to you?

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:19 At first, I didn't, um, wanna answer him, but slowly, I realized I c- I could get good information from him.

Joe Rogan 1:07:26 Boah, (sighs) Facebook.

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:29 (laughs) We're not friends. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:07:31 Right.

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:31 ... I've explained this before, but we're not... w- we didn't become Facebook friends.

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 You don't follow each other?

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:35 I don't-

Joe Rogan 1:07:35 No?

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:35 I don't let him, you know, into my life on Facebook. Um, but no, we message each other. It's okay.

Joe Rogan 1:07:40 (sighs)

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:41 So you set limits. It's all right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:42 Yeah, but still.

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 Do you... uh, when you said that you, uh, you had forgiveness-

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:49 ... and that was very important, do you... did you express that to him?

Michael Scott Moore 1:07:53 Um, yes, at l-at least in my tone. I mean, he's... he was one of the easiest people to forgive. He w- he was... he was never obnoxious or, or violent towards me. I mean, except for belonging to this violent, violent gang. Um, I think he was personally never, um, y- you know, as obnoxious as some of the other guards could be.

Joe Rogan 1:08:15 Did you try to communicate to him that the rest of the world is different? Did you try to communicate to him what it's like where y- where you grew up and that y- your experience as a human being is so wildly different-

Michael Scott Moore 1:08:30 No.

Joe Rogan 1:08:31 ... from his?

Michael Scott Moore 1:08:31 No, that wasn't... that wasn't our topic of conversation, so I-

Joe Rogan 1:08:35 Did you ever think of in- introducing that?

Michael Scott Moore 1:08:40 (sighs) I got some of that information from him, let's put it that way. He told me a little bit about his background and it was m- military, as a matter of fact, um, which I think is typical. So in other words, a lot of them are trained gunmen. Um, I'd... I wasn't anxious to share a lot of information with him, but, you know, if he reads my book, he'll learn it. Uh, there's a lot of personal background in the book.

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 1:09:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:04 It's, it's so hard to even imagine. You know, there's some people that tell you things and you're like, "Oh, I can kinda imagine that." But your story is so fucked up-

Michael Scott Moore 1:09:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:15 ... it's almost impossible to even imagine. And so unique, in that you grew up in this incredibly Western world, this, this, you know, First World.

Michael Scott Moore 1:09:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 You're in Germany, and then you go to Somalia and get captured and stay there, and it alters your reality.

Michael Scott Moore 1:09:31 Yeah, it did. It really did, and it, it was... it's a lot more fucked up than I expected it to be. In other words, I didn't... you know, I wouldn't have wished for this. I wouldn't have wished for this on my family either.

Joe Rogan 1:09:43 I couldn't imagine.

Michael Scott Moore 1:09:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:44 Do y-... do you think about Somalia? Do you think about what, what it must be like to be a person that's stuck there-

Michael Scott Moore 1:09:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:54 ... that lives there?

Michael Scott Moore 1:09:55 Oh, I g-... I had plenty of opportunity to think about that, you know. That's... that was obviously behind what m- what my guards were doing, um, so that was on my mind quite a lot. And that's, that's where you realize that actually most of the world lives quite poor. The... Somalia's one of the poorest countries, so it's even under, you know, the, the average line for the, for the rest of the world. But, um, no, it's clear that, um, m- most of the world doesn't live like, like we do in the West.

Joe Rogan 1:10:23 What was a day like there? Like, what did you typically do other than be shackled to sleep and-

Michael Scott Moore 1:10:29 Yeah, well, it depended where I was. Um, if I was o- on the ship, then w- there was a, um... we slept... I slept in a cabin along with 10 other hostages, and then we came out to the deck in the morning and had instant coffee and, uh, something for breakfast and... Uh, the food was not bad because it was still an operating fishing vessel and, um, we got piles of rice and basically Chinese food from the kitchen as long as s- supplies lasted, you know? Uh, once I was on land, and then I just woke up alone under a mosquito tent and wondered what to do that day, you know? Um, I had to live in my head quite a bit. If I didn't have paper and pen to write with, um, which I didn't for at least a year and a half, I had to sort of write in my head. I mean, I, I actually composed paragraphs in my head and went through them and memorized them, and eventually I had a two-hour routine in the morning where I just lay i- lay still and went through these words in my head. That was one way to keep sane.

Joe Rogan 1:11:28 So you remembered the individual paragraphs-

Michael Scott Moore 1:11:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:31 ... and y- you put them in a, an order?

Michael Scott Moore 1:11:34 Mm-hmm. I was revising books in my head, so I would go through and th- say, "Okay, this needs work," (laughs) you know? Might as well-

Joe Rogan 1:11:39 Wow.

Michael Scott Moore 1:11:39 ... get to it. And then I would compose a paragraph, refine it, memorize it all in my head.

Joe Rogan 1:11:46 You know, I have friends that do comedy that way.

Michael Scott Moore 1:11:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:49 They don't really write.

Michael Scott Moore 1:11:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:50 They only write in their head.

Michael Scott Moore 1:11:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:52 And... but they still call it writing.

Michael Scott Moore 1:11:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:54 And, uh, I found that interesting, and they said, "Well, this is the best way for me to constantly remember it."

Michael Scott Moore 1:11:58 That's interesting, yeah. Well, yeah. Th- I mean, that's what I had to do, commit it to memory.

Joe Rogan 1:12:02 And so you sat down there, and when you were going over the material-

Michael Scott Moore 1:12:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:12:07 ... this was, uh, a purposeful strategy in order to keep your sanity-

Michael Scott Moore 1:12:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:12:12 ... and give yourself some, some order?

Michael Scott Moore 1:12:14 And keep my mind occupied. Um, and when I... and I w- would memorize that and then I also had, like, a list of names from the ship to memorize. So I had written all their names down with the proper spellings, right? I was still optimistic when I, when I was on the ship. Uh, and so I, I had an incredibly complex list of, of names from the crewmen, um, which I lost, and so-

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 Oh, you lost them?

Michael Scott Moore 1:12:38 ... r- I lost the list between the ship and land, so, uh, remembering their names became part of my morning routine too.

Joe Rogan 1:12:46 And this is obviously phonetic, right? Because you're dealing with Asian language?

Michael Scott Moore 1:12:50 Yeah, I had learned to spell them though. Uh, luckily when I got out, I got a, um, a l- a list of the crewmen's names from the FBI. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:58 Whoa.

Michael Scott Moore 1:12:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:01 Um, when did this book come out?

Michael Scott Moore 1:13:02 Uh, it just came out last week, and, uh, um, it's been a few years in the making.

Joe Rogan 1:13:09 Is it difficult to do conversations like this?

Michael Scott Moore 1:13:11 No, like I said, it's, it's easier now that I've written it, so I'm fluent with this material now. But when I first got out, I wouldn't have b- been able to talk about it like this. I would've, um...... I would have just bunged up. I wouldn't have known where to start.

Joe Rogan 1:13:26 What do you anticipate doing once this is ... once the dust has settled and this is, you know, f- firmly established and you're done with the promos?

Michael Scott Moore 1:13:34 Uh, well, I'm, I'm working on a new book, so I'm, you know, moving-

Joe Rogan 1:13:39 The, the novel.

Michael Scott Moore 1:13:39 Moving on.

Joe Rogan 1:13:40 The dr- The drone novel.

Michael Scott Moore 1:13:40 I'm working on a novel, and I'm following a story, um, a couple of stories in the meantime too, some, some journalism. And I, I work for Hostage US at the moment too, which is a, a good nonprofit that supports families, um, um, that might have somebody in, in captivity somewhere. And, uh, the US government, as it turns out, helps families in, in really good ways. Um, but in the ways that they can't, uh, in terms of just letting the families know what, you know, what to expect and what might be going on with their, their people, uh, Hostage US can step in and help.

Joe Rogan 1:14:19 I think your story's really important, and I think it's not just important in terms of, like, your ... that the fact that you've had an incredibly deep view of what it's like to live there.

Michael Scott Moore 1:14:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:30 But that you, you got your life back.

Michael Scott Moore 1:14:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:34 And in, in this experience of no hope and sorrow and captivity and this ... all the, the various struggles that you went through, you've experienced something that just very, very few human beings, even in the seven billion people on this planet and all their struggles and trials and tribulations, there's ... What, what small handful have been held captive by Somali pirates and then managed to live?

Michael Scott Moore 1:15:05 Mm-hmm. Well, there's a, there's a network of former captives, and that's what Hostage US is about. But, you know, I realize-

Joe Rogan 1:15:11 How many people have been held captive?

Michael Scott Moore 1:15:13 Oh, more than you realize. But, uh, they're, you know ... And they're ... Several of us are still alive, and so it's g- ... The best people for me to talk to when I first got out was other people who'd been captive. Um, David Rohde, who was held hostage by the Taliban when he was working for the New York Times was also on the board of the Pulitzer Center when I got captured, so he followed my story. Talking to him after I got out was fantastic. It was better than a psychologist. And, um, I was aware of it. He escaped, you know, so I was aware of his story when I was there. So, we were thinking about each other in a way, you know, and we're friends now. It's great. The, the ... Talking to someone who's been through it is psychologically the best thing.

Joe Rogan 1:15:51 Now, what are the numbers in terms of how many people who've been held captive by Som- the Somalis-

Michael Scott Moore 1:15:57 Oh, by Somalis?

Joe Rogan 1:15:59 ... and how are they currently? Do they know?

Michael Scott Moore 1:15:59 Okay. C- currently, yeah, it's down to about four Iranian fishermen, and-

Joe Rogan 1:16:03 That's it right now?

Michael Scott Moore 1:16:04 That's it. And then a couple of ... who were actually captured by pirates, and then a couple of, um, Kenyans who I think were handed over to a pirate gang. Um, so it's much reduced, you know. And in fact, the Naham 3 crew, when they got out, was the last big crew that was being held by pirates. They got out in 2016. So, the pirate era, you might say, is sort of tapering off. Uh, but-

Joe Rogan 1:16:25 But why is that?

Michael Scott Moore 1:16:26 Oh, because, um, while (laughs) so, it was while I was there, pirates stopped being so active on the water, and I slowly gleaned that from, um, from the BBC or whatever I was listening to. (laughs) And like, "Fuck, I came here to write a story about pirates, and now it's not even a story." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:16:44 (laughs)

Michael Scott Moore 1:16:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:16:44 You've become the story.

Michael Scott Moore 1:16:46 I became the story. It was not good. Um, but th- it fell off in 2013, maybe even a little earlier, late 2012, partly because the bosses shifted their focus to other businesses and they found it less profitable to hold people, uh, probably also because of my case. I mean, my, my case wasn't moving along. And, um, but mainly because, and this is s- this still has to be true to keep piracy down, um, cargo ships f- sail now with, with armed teams, you know, contractors,