Joe Rogan Experience #1149 - Michael Scott Moore

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (laughs) …

   1. MMMichael Scott Moore0:00

      (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Very nice to meet you.

   3. MMMichael Scott Moore0:01

      Good to meet you. How are you? (slurps)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Boom, and we're live. Uh, so just to give everybody a, a good way to start this. You have a book.

   5. MMMichael Scott Moore0:15

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      The book is called The Desert and the Sea, and you have one of the most disturbing and craziest stories I think I ever read.

   7. MMMichael Scott Moore0:22

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      You were kidnapped-

   9. MMMichael Scott Moore0:25

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       ... by Somali pirates-

   11. MMMichael Scott Moore0:27

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       ... and you were held hostage for more than two years.

   13. MMMichael Scott Moore0:30

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       What the fuck-

   15. MMMichael Scott Moore0:33

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       ... was that like? And what does it feel like to be a free man now-

   17. MMMichael Scott Moore0:37

       Oh.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       ... after all that?

   19. MMMichael Scott Moore0:38

       Are you kidding? It feels great.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       In America.

   21. MMMichael Scott Moore0:40

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Wandering around the Valley.

   23. MMMichael Scott Moore0:42

       (laughs) The Valley, where I was born-

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       (laughs)

   25. MMMichael Scott Moore0:43

       ... and raised, by the way.

   26. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Were you?

   27. MMMichael Scott Moore0:45

       Yeah. This is the first time I've been back in the Valley for a couple of years now.

   28. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       What, what, what happened? And how, how did it happen?

   29. MMMichael Scott Moore0:54

       (laughs) Long story. Um, so I wa- I went to Somalia in the first place to write a book, a very different book-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Keep this light.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Now, were they waiting…

   1. MMMichael Scott Moore15:00

      and, and that's what happened. By that, by that time, the FBI had informed her, uh, had actually come to her door, um, and briefed her a little on what to say on the phone. So, um, she was ready for the phone call, you know. She'd been sitting around for days wondering when she was gonna hear from me. Um, so ... but that was also true about the Pulitzer Center. It was also true about my colleagues at Spiegel Online in Berlin, and it was also true about my family in Germany. Everyone had been briefed a little bit.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:31

      Now, were they waiting for a specific reason? Why did they wait a whole week?

   3. MMMichael Scott Moore15:35

      No idea. It's a really good question. I kept asking for a phone call. I mean, I, I was sitting there kind of in a panic too, you know. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:42

      And what were they saying to you during this week? I mean, you-

   5. MMMichael Scott Moore15:43

      They said, "Oh, yeah, okay."

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:44

      You have a broken arm, right?

   7. MMMichael Scott Moore15:46

      Right. Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:46

      So you're, you're obviously ... you're in pain.

   9. MMMichael Scott Moore15:50

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:50

       You can't see anymore.

   11. MMMichael Scott Moore15:51

       Yeah. I was in a ... the first, first they took me to a bush camp, then they took me, with a couple of other hostages, to a (sniffs) prison house. And, uh, yeah, I had my wrist in a sling and, um ... it just was ... it was painful and it was con- it was confusing. I really didn't know what was going on. And then slowly, they brought a doctor in to look at the wrist, and then slowly, they took us out into the bush, and then finally they gave ... put me on the phone.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:19

       So you, you got medical treatment for your wrist?

   13. MMMichael Scott Moore16:22

       Sort of.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Did they set it?

   15. MMMichael Scott Moore16:22

       Yeah, the g- the guy, he was, he was probably a, uh, livestock doctor, but the, the guy was ... he was a very sympathetic old- older man. Um, but he said, "Your wrist is not broken." (laughs) And he put a splint on it, and that was it. It was broke.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Hmm.

   17. MMMichael Scott Moore16:36

       Not broken in half, you know, but, uh-

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:39

       But definitely cracked.

   19. MMMichael Scott Moore16:39

       ... uh, the r- I felt, I felt bones moving around in there.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:41

       Yeah.

   21. MMMichael Scott Moore16:42

       It's been re- rearranged. It's been reshaped.

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:45

       Um, did you ev- eventually get medical treatment when you get home for it?

   23. MMMichael Scott Moore16:49

       Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. When I got home, but th- to-

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       To fix it? To get surgery?

   25. MMMichael Scott Moore16:51

       No, two years and eight months later, it was, it was okay. It was a fine set-

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       Oh, it was set?

   27. MMMichael Scott Moore16:54

       ... it's a functioning wrist, r- yeah, it's, it's set wrong, but it's a functioning wrist.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       Did you get an X-ray just so you could see how weird it looks?

   29. MMMichael Scott Moore17:01

       Didn't even bother. (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:02

       Wow. Now, when you're there, um, once you get the initial phone call-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   (laughs) …

   1. MMMichael Scott Moore30:00

      me. That's Tom Hanks." (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      (laughs)

   3. MMMichael Scott Moore30:03

      So I knew what they were watching. And two weeks later, one of the guards actually sh- handed me the phone and said, you know, "Michael, look." And so I saw about 45 minutes of it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:12

      Wow.

   5. MMMichael Scott Moore30:13

      And of course when he handed me the phone, the first thing I went, that went through my mind is like, "Okay, I'm gonna call mom." (laughs) You know, just find a way to-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:18

      Right. Right. Right.

   7. MMMichael Scott Moore30:18

      ... turn down the volume and, and, and call California. Um, uh, he took the phone away before I did that. But I had a whole plan. I developed a whole plan while I was watching Captain Phillips, you know, get on the plane in Boston-Logan or whatever. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:33

      Wow.

   9. MMMichael Scott Moore30:35

      It was... So atmospherically, I, it was a pretty good, pretty well done movie, but there were a couple of scenes where, that would, just wouldn't have happened in real life, you know.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       I didn't watch the movie.

   11. MMMichael Scott Moore30:43

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:43

       So what was, uh, inaccurate about it?

   13. MMMichael Scott Moore30:45

       Uh, there was one scene where there was some selection of pirates on the beach, so in public, um, and I thought, "Gosh, how did they get that? That's, that's r- I've never even heard of that before." And then I, then, uh, I thought about it and thought, and realized, well, that, yeah, actually it wouldn't happen like that in public. That was just, uh, for dramatic purposes. Um, you know, I was, I was envious of their material at first and then I realized, "No, they made that up." Um, so things like that. But the pirates were fascinated to see people like them, and in some cases their friends, um, portrayed on screen. Uh, even though we all know how it, you know, the movie ends very badly for Somali pirates, so.

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:25

       So they knew about the story-

   15. MMMichael Scott Moore31:27

       Oh.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:27

       ... that that was based on?

   17. MMMichael Scott Moore31:29

       Yeah, no question. Not only that, but one of them said that he was friends with one of the pirates involved.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:34

       Wow.

   19. MMMichael Scott Moore31:34

       And I believe him actually. He had the right clan affiliation for that. So it's, it's quite possible.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:39

       What was it like to see them watching their story being depicted on the other side of the planet?

   21. MMMichael Scott Moore31:45

       Well, that's what was weird is that they, they were so fascinated by it. But we, you know, otherwise they didn't necessarily like to talk about bad news for pirates or, uh, you know, like I said, when the hostages were released, um, or rescued in the first few days of my captivity, um, I kept hearing that the hostages had been killed. Um, so they like to spin things in a, in a good way for, for pirates in general. So I, I just would've assumed they would just ignore Captain Phillips 'cause it ends so badly. They were just fascinated. They really were.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       And w- so what was daily life like for you? Like you, do you eat with them?

   23. MMMichael Scott Moore32:25

       (smacks lips) Well, I... Separately, but sometimes in the same room. They, they m- made very bad m- (stutters) uh, food, boiled beans and, like, flavorless boiled goat and that kinda thing.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:39

       (clears throat)

   25. MMMichael Scott Moore32:40

       Um, but they would eat from a communal platter, s- sort of elsewhere within sight. Um, I didn't have to eat from the same platter for, as, as, uh, the-

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:50

       They eat by hand?

   27. MMMichael Scott Moore32:51

       Yeah, by hand. Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       Yeah. That's, uh, very common in that part of the world?

   29. MMMichael Scott Moore32:55

       Yeah, it really is because utensils just aren't, aren't that common. And they really liked spaghetti, so they'd sort of wrap the spaghetti around your fingers. And I, I had done that as a free man, you know, I sort of sat w- with Somalis and, and ate that way. But as a, as a hostage, I was in no mood to be that, uh, uh, you know, that friendly.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       Yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   That's fascinating that a…

   1. MMMichael Scott Moore45:00

      m- made a conscious decision to forgive them. And I had to do that over and over, and that made my mind a whole lot more, more stable and settl- settled, which means that unless I had done that, I probably would've picked up a gun and, and killed myself, if not them, or both.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:19

      That's fascinating that a speech by the pope could resonate so strongly with you while you're in captivity.

   3. MMMichael Scott Moore45:25

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:27

      Just forgiveness.

   5. MMMichael Scott Moore45:28

      Forgiveness. D- it wouldn't have had to be by the pope, but he, he was pretty good.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:32

      That's something that people play- pay lip service to. (smacks lips) And, you know, you hear s- people saying, "You should live a life of forgiveness."

   7. MMMichael Scott Moore45:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:39

      "And it's healthier for you." But no one can really understand that the way you have.

   9. MMMichael Scott Moore45:44

      Mm-hmm. For me, it was life and death. (inhales deeply)

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:47

       Wow. Man, it's so... I mean, I can't wait to read your book.

   11. MMMichael Scott Moore45:51

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:51

       It is, it is a crazy story. Uh, uh, y- your... D- I mean, th- it's just such an insane experience-

   13. MMMichael Scott Moore45:59

       Yeah, it was.

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:00

       ... that your, y- your just your well of experiences, like, what you can draw upon is (smacks lips) so different from most people that you're interacting with. You m- you must almost feel like you're going through life interacting with privileged children.

   15. MMMichael Scott Moore46:16

       Sometimes. But the, th- s- so first of all, I'm just very happy to be back in-

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:21

       Yeah.

   17. MMMichael Scott Moore46:22

       ... uh, in the world I grew up in. So th- that's the main thing. Um, but yeah, that comes up sometimes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:28

       You know, when people complain about things?

   19. MMMichael Scott Moore46:30

       For example.

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:31

       "Oh, it's so fucking hot out."

   21. MMMichael Scott Moore46:32

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       (laughs)

   23. MMMichael Scott Moore46:34

       Or p- you know-

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:35

       Yeah, you should try hot in Somalia prison where you're shackled to a bed.

   25. MMMichael Scott Moore46:38

       Right, exactly.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:39

       Yeah.

   27. MMMichael Scott Moore46:40

       Or, uh, you know, idiots in traffic. I'm, I'm a much more-

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:43

       Right.

   29. MMMichael Scott Moore46:43

       ... patient driver, and so is my mother, by the way. (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       Oh, I'm sure. So happy to get her son back, right?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      the expansion of the spectrum... Although there's no way you would ever barter it off or bargain to have those experiences to broaden your spectrum-

   2. MMMichael Scott Moore1:00:09

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:10

      ... it, it has to have changed the way you put pen to paper-

   4. MMMichael Scott Moore1:00:14

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:15

      ... and view the world and your, your ability to describe things.

   6. MMMichael Scott Moore1:00:18

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it... You, you realize that each individual has certain, certain boundaries, you know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

      Yeah.

   8. MMMichael Scott Moore1:00:27

      And, and certain, certain self-definitions, um, and those self-definitions can be... Uh, they... The, the distance between one individual and another can be enormous, um, but in some sense, also, they're superficial distinctions, so.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:45

      Yeah, but th- their inescapable reality is so alien-

   10. MMMichael Scott Moore1:00:48

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       ... in comparison to someone who lives in Bel Air.

   12. MMMichael Scott Moore1:00:51

       Mm-hmm. Oh, absolutely.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

       Just this, this... Just that contrast-

   14. MMMichael Scott Moore1:00:57

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:58

       ... between this world that you were so deeply entrenched in for two and... two years and eight months-

   16. MMMichael Scott Moore1:01:04

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

       ... like, that has gotta change the way you look at human life.

   18. MMMichael Scott Moore1:01:09

       Yeah, uh, because the gulf in wealth is so enormous. I mean, they can't imagine the, the amount of money it takes to live in Bel Air and...

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:16

       Right.

   20. MMMichael Scott Moore1:01:17

       And the other way around. I mean, it, I think it's very difficult for someone in California to imagine how little you can get by on, um, and how close to the earth some, most people on the planet live.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

       Yeah, there's a statistic that I read once that I, I repeat all the time 'cause it still baffles me, that if you make more than $34,000 a year, you're in the 1% of the world.

   22. MMMichael Scott Moore1:01:38

       Of the world, yeah, possibly. Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:39

       Yeah. And that is probably magnified many fold in Ethiopia.

   24. MMMichael Scott Moore1:01:46

       Yeah, in Ethiopia and Somalia. I mean, it's, it's very, um, y- you know, in some ways, although, th- they want money all the time, especially if they're criminals, um, the, the money that we're used to sort of greasing our path through life around here, um, is just not available. It's just not, not part of the reality.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

       What do they do with money when they get it?

   26. MMMichael Scott Moore1:02:11

       Well, it depends. If, if they're pirates, they splash out on a fancy car or, or cars or something like that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:17

       Did you see fancy cars when you were there?

   28. MMMichael Scott Moore1:02:19

       Sure. Oh, yeah. No. I was placed in fancy cars. I mean-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:22

       Really?

   30. MMMichael Scott Moore1:02:22

       Yeah. No. So the bi- pirates had great cellphones, um, expensive SUVs, um, weapons that they had bought, uh, you know, from abroad in maybe at Weapons Bazaar in Mogadishu or something like that. Uh, but that's not cheap either. Uh, they, they bragged about how the, uh, the bullets cost, like, a dollar each, you know, and that one of them might, might've been wearing a band of 500 bullets. Um, and the cut is expensive. So, lots of things cost an enormous amount of money in Somalia, but if you're a, m- you know, if you're a very ordinary Somali, Somali, you, you're getting by on, you know, less than a dollar a day.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:17:56

   Mm-hmm. Well, there's a,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

      been held captive by Somali pirates and then managed to live?

   2. MMMichael Scott Moore1:15:05

      Mm-hmm. Well, there's a, there's a network of former captives, and that's what Hostage US is about. But, you know, I realize-

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:11

      How many people have been held captive?

   4. MMMichael Scott Moore1:15:13

      Oh, more than you realize. But, uh, they're, you know ... And they're ... Several of us are still alive, and so it's g- ... The best people for me to talk to when I first got out was other people who'd been captive. Um, David Rohde, who was held hostage by the Taliban when he was working for the New York Times was also on the board of the Pulitzer Center when I got captured, so he followed my story. Talking to him after I got out was fantastic. It was better than a psychologist. And, um, I was aware of it. He escaped, you know, so I was aware of his story when I was there. So, we were thinking about each other in a way, you know, and we're friends now. It's great. The, the ... Talking to someone who's been through it is psychologically the best thing.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:51

      Now, what are the numbers in terms of how many people who've been held captive by Som- the Somalis-

   6. MMMichael Scott Moore1:15:57

      Oh, by Somalis?

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:59

      ... and how are they currently? Do they know?

   8. MMMichael Scott Moore1:15:59

      Okay. C- currently, yeah, it's down to about four Iranian fishermen, and-

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:16:03

      That's it right now?

   10. MMMichael Scott Moore1:16:04

       That's it. And then a couple of ... who were actually captured by pirates, and then a couple of, um, Kenyans who I think were handed over to a pirate gang. Um, so it's much reduced, you know. And in fact, the Naham 3 crew, when they got out, was the last big crew that was being held by pirates. They got out in 2016. So, the pirate era, you might say, is sort of tapering off. Uh, but-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:16:25

       But why is that?

   12. MMMichael Scott Moore1:16:26

       Oh, because, um, while (laughs) so, it was while I was there, pirates stopped being so active on the water, and I slowly gleaned that from, um, from the BBC or whatever I was listening to. (laughs) And like, "Fuck, I came here to write a story about pirates, and now it's not even a story." (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:16:44

       (laughs)

   14. MMMichael Scott Moore1:16:44

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:16:44

       You've become the story.

   16. MMMichael Scott Moore1:16:46

       I became the story. It was not good. Um, but th- it fell off in 2013, maybe even a little earlier, late 2012, partly because the bosses shifted their focus to other businesses and they found it less profitable to hold people, uh, probably also because of my case. I mean, my, my case wasn't moving along. And, um, but mainly because, and this is s- this still has to be true to keep piracy down, um, cargo ships f- sail now with, with armed teams, you know, contractors, um, and it turns out a spatter of gunfire in the water can keep a skiff from coming on. Um, that's enough. And it should be enough. And that, that's really the main, um, the main defense. The, the naval teams that still cruise off Somalia, they're ... that's, th- it's a very important formality, but I don't think they practically stop individual cases the way an armed team does. And there was a lot of fear about that beforehand, a lot of, uh, fear about putting wea- weapons on a civilian cargo ship, you know, or a merchant ship. Uh, somebody thought ... A few people thought there would be, like, an arms race in the water.

Episode duration: 1:20:22