Joe Rogan Experience #1158 - Chuck Palahniuk

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Four, three, two, one.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Four, three, two, one. (claps) And we're live. How are you, Chuck?

   2. CPChuck Palahniuk0:09

      I am great. Look at this place.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Thanks for being here, man. Appreciate it.

   4. CPChuck Palahniuk0:13

      Ha. Thank you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      I've read your books, I've, I've watched movies based on your books, so it's very cool to meet you in real life.

   6. CPChuck Palahniuk0:19

      It's always a disappointment, it is always so heartbreaking, because people expect somebody, uh, somebody so not me. And I am constantly breaking their heart when they meet me.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:31

      Well, I expect you, so you're not breaking my heart at all. I'm very pleased to meet you. So I didn't have any weirdo expectations or any delusions of who you are.

   8. CPChuck Palahniuk0:41

      And don't, just, just, just, don't, don't-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:43

      (laughs)

   10. CPChuck Palahniuk0:43

       ... kill yourself, okay?

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       (laughs)

   12. CPChuck Palahniuk0:46

       I meet Anthony Bourdain and he kills himself.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Well, I think there was a lot of other factors involved there.

   14. CPChuck Palahniuk0:52

       I, no, I don't know. I, I see this-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       (laughs)

   16. CPChuck Palahniuk0:55

       ... so many of my peers, it's like the, the moment I meet them, boom, they're gone.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       Um, yeah, I'm, I'm not gonna do that, okay? So don't worry, everything's fine. Um, listen, I wanna talk to you about a bunch of things. First of all, uh, I, I would love to talk to you about your writing process, 'cause one of the, one of the things that I read once is, uh, I believe you were writing down ... It was on the cape, it was in Massachusetts? Were you ever writing down there?

   18. CPChuck Palahniuk1:20

       That-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       Were you, were you ever writing somewhere-

   20. CPChuck Palahniuk1:22

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       ... where you made a deal with yourself where you wouldn't turn the heat on unless you were writing?

   22. CPChuck Palahniuk1:26

       Oh my gosh, you think I'm a white person, don't you?

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:29

       A white person?

   24. CPChuck Palahniuk1:29

       That is so weird. The cape? The cape?

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       You never been to the Cape Cod?

   26. CPChuck Palahniuk1:33

       That's like in England.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       Is that all white people?

   28. CPChuck Palahniuk1:34

       That's in England, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       New England.

   30. CPChuck Palahniuk1:36

       New England.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Whoa. …

   1. CPChuck Palahniuk15:00

      and a very good friend of mine said, "You're not bringing that word into workshop. You're not writing anything with the F-word." And, and it just became more and more tightly strictured that way. And so eventually I realized we were kind of writing to em- make each other happy instead of to kind of confront each other. And, uh, one of the writers in our workshop is a writer named Cheryl Strayed, who wr- who had written a book called Wild, which was a hugely successful book. It was chosen as an Oprah book and it will be on book store shelves for the rest of history, Cheryl's book, Wild. But while she was writing it, she had written a segment about how as a child she would be sat on the sofa with her grandfather and her f- grandfather taught her how to masturbate him. And so as a child she would masturbate her grandfather until he achieved orgasm. And then later she would find these featherless, featherless birds that had fallen out of a nest and she picked one up and she knew it would die, so she crushed it between her bare hands. This is a very small child. And she wrote how as that bird died crushed between her hands, it, its death throes, its spasms of death felt exactly like her grandfather's penis ejaculating in her little hand.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:34

      Whoa.

   3. CPChuck Palahniuk16:35

      That was the best thing she ever wrote. And her editor at Knopf said, "That is not going in this book because we want this book to be a big book, and if we see you jerking off your grandfather and then killing baby birds, that is not gonna make Oprah Winfrey happy." So it was a magnificent piece of writing and a magnificent kind of parallel and awareness for a child to have. And this juxtaposition of sexual abuse and death was magnificent. Oh my God, it worked on every level. But the publisher said, "This is not gonna be in the book."

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:18

      Did she send it to you or did she show it to you?

   5. CPChuck Palahniuk17:20

      She brought it to workshop and she read it. And there was even a newspaper reporter pre- uh, present there. And we all realized it was fantastically powerful. But then she said, "Uh, they won't take this. This can't go in."

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:37

      Wow. Did she do anything with it? Did she publish it online or ...

   7. CPChuck Palahniuk17:41

      No, and, and there were so many parts of that book that were so much better than what they actually did publish.

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:47

      Really?

   9. CPChuck Palahniuk17:48

      And, and so it's that kind of censorship where you're trying to reach a reader standing in line at Starbucks, and this has got to go in that, uh, point of purchase stand and it's gotta be a face out. And I understand for a long time if you wanted a face out at, uh, Barnes & Noble, especially on the Discover New Writers face out stack, you could not have the word fuck on the first page because they did not want people picking up that book and opening it and seeing the F-word, that that just did not fit their corporate culture.And so, you know, so much of the censorship is, is because people really wanna reach the largest audience, uh, without offending people.

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       Whew. But there's giant problems with that, right? I mean, one of the more fascinating things about books is that the story plays out in your mind.

   11. CPChuck Palahniuk18:48

       Exactly. The nature of consumption makes it about the only medium which, in which you can go to those places.

   12. JRJoe Rogan18:55

       Yeah, literally. You, you couldn't ... There's no way you would be able to find the, I mean, to put that in a book, her story about her grandfather and the bird. Maybe you could put the bird in, but the grandfather part, there's just no way.

   13. CPChuck Palahniuk19:13

       Yeah. You know, and I, I, I, I, I feel like I'm telling stories out of school, but it's such a perfect example of that kind of self-censorship. Uh, and it's also something so magnificent that I feel it should come out. It should sort of be stated. Uh, I don't wanna steal her thunder. I, I, I wanna honor the story. But it's like so many stories that people tell me. Uh, I'm kind of seen as a safe person, you know, kind of a degraded monster maybe. But as a degraded monster with no self-esteem whatsoever, they feel (laughs) safe telling me these things because in a way, they, they probably feel a little morally superior to me.

   14. JRJoe Rogan19:52

       (laughs)

   15. CPChuck Palahniuk19:53

       Um-

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:54

       Why do you think people would consider you a degraded monster?

   17. CPChuck Palahniuk19:57

       Because I can read a story like Guts that is so completely humiliating, because as I read it, it's in the first person, so people more or less assume that it's my story even though-

   18. JRJoe Rogan20:10

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CPChuck Palahniuk20:11

       ... the story's garnered from many different people. But the fact that I'm presenting it means that I'm the person that is, that is losing face. And afterwards, people feel like they can risk losing face by telling me their story that's very much like, uh, the Guts story.

   20. JRJoe Rogan20:28

       So, when someone is writing something that's deeply disturbing like that, when you, when you, when you hit those parts of your mind and you come to this pathway, do, do you consider, do you say, "Well, no one's ever gonna allow this to be in a book. No one's ever ..." Uh, uh, do you consider those thoughts or do you just go through with it first and then review it, or do you d- not do that at all?

   21. CPChuck Palahniuk20:52

       You know, I, my formative years were the punk years, the '70s into the '80s, and we always used to have a saying. People would say, "Uh, don't hit the brake until you hear a glass break," or, "Don't stop until you hear a glass break." And so, I always think the point of writing is to coach yourself to that point that you would never have gone voluntarily, and also to coach your reader to the point where the reader would never have gone voluntarily. In a story like Guts, you know, it's very funny on the front end and if you told people on the front end where it was gonna go, they'd never read that story. But it's very funny and charming and well-paced on the front. And then once people realize where it's gonna go, they're already trapped. (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:40

       (laughs)

   23. CPChuck Palahniuk21:40

       And so in a way, it's, it's a way-

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:42

       You seem to enjoy that, though. Your, like, the way you said they're already trapped, you seem to take some satisfaction in that.

   25. CPChuck Palahniuk21:48

       But in writing it, I'm also sort of springing the trap on myself.

   26. JRJoe Rogan21:53

       Hm.

   27. CPChuck Palahniuk21:54

       Starting down a path that I have no idea is gonna be so humiliating or so, uh, emotionally upsetting or so dark. Because if, if I did, I would never go d- go down that path.

   28. JRJoe Rogan22:09

       When you write a story like that, how much of it do you plan out in advance?

   29. CPChuck Palahniuk22:14

       I might plan out up to the, the end of the second act. You know, at the moment of greatest crisis, this will happen. You know, in Fight Club, the moment of greatest crisis is gonna be when everyone in the support groups figures out that this guy is lying to them and they're all given the choice of either accepting him for his transgressions or rejecting him. Same thing in Choke. There's gonna be that moment in, uh, when people realize that he has faked choking and that he's made them into a fake hero and they're gonna either kill him or accept him. And so, I typically know that the second act is gonna end with the transgression being revealed. But beyond that, I don't wanna know because I want the story-

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:05

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   But some people do,…

   1. CPChuck Palahniuk30:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      But some people do, right? I mean, isn't it... it's kind of like, uh, pretty much all forms of art whether it's music or movies. I mean, there's superhero movies and then there's movies like No Country for Old Men where the bad guy gets away at the end and you, you leave the movie theater and you're like, "What the fuck?" You know? But those, those are all satisfying in different ways to different people, and isn't that sort of the point?... of creative expression, is that y- you're getting surprised, you're getting taken down a road that it's here's the world through this person's eyes, and they create this world. If you put limitations on that, you're gonna ... yeah, you're gonna eliminate some disturbing aspects that might bother some people, but you're also gonna eliminate some magical moments that might just car- that might ... literally might change the way you view people.

   3. CPChuck Palahniuk30:50

      You know, and part of it has to do with the nature of, you know, movies. Movies are gonna always kind of attract, uh, a more dynamic audience. Movies carry their own authority through emotion. Um, and books are gonna be a slower medium that's harder to consume. And so, maybe books are always gonna, at this point, uh, be seen of ... as kind of a sedative, as a kind of thing that lulls you and comforts you and puts you to, to sleep.

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:18

      Yeah, but by who? By some people, right? I mean, I mean, maybe there's a market for those kind of books, but there's also a market for your books. There's a, there's, there's clearly a market for people that w- that wanna tap into those more disturbing aspects of consciousness-

   5. CPChuck Palahniuk31:32

      Y-

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:32

      ... and of reality.

   7. CPChuck Palahniuk31:33

      And that market is moving to video games, and that market is moving to edgier films. Uh, there's just other forms of storytelling that are serving that market better.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:43

      Really?

   9. CPChuck Palahniuk31:44

      Oh, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:44

       Better than books?

   11. CPChuck Palahniuk31:45

       Oh, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:47

       But why is that? Is that because of the censorship, or is it because artists aren't exploring those ideas as much anymore?

   13. CPChuck Palahniuk31:55

       You know, and part of it is because books are harder to consume.

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:58

       Mm.

   15. CPChuck Palahniuk31:58

       Books take an enormous, uh, amount of, uh, commitment of time and effort to read a book, where everything else is 30 minutes to two hours.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:08

       And to write a book as well, I mean, that's such a solitary discipline to-

   17. CPChuck Palahniuk32:13

       No.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:13

       ... sit alone with your computer.

   19. CPChuck Palahniuk32:15

       No, it is not.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       No?

   21. CPChuck Palahniuk32:17

       Not for me.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       No?

   23. CPChuck Palahniuk32:18

       I, I hate that model. You know, I wanna be in The Mermaid Tavern talking about my ideas with my compatriots, and getting their take on them, and finding out how it re- resonates with everything else in people's lives.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:31

       What's The Mermaid Tavern?

   25. CPChuck Palahniuk32:32

       Oh, it's, uh, the, the reference to where, uh, (tongue clicks) . Um ... (sighs) Not Coleridge. All the famous writers of Shakespeare's time-

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:43

       Oh.

   27. CPChuck Palahniuk32:44

       ... uh, basically hung out at, uh ... it was like the White Horse Tavern in New York, but The Mermaid Tavern was in London during that time. Um, and, uh, Boswell, um, all the writers hung out there and exchanged ideas and entertained one another.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:59

       Hmm.

   29. CPChuck Palahniuk33:00

       And so, uh, yeah, I want writing to be my social outlet.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:07

       But you have to write it by yourself, right? I mean, when you're, when you're sitting alone, actually putting your fingers on the keyboards.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   (laughs) …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      that. You can like it, but don't tell anybody you like it." Like, what am I supposed to do? And, uh, I didn't do anything. I just let her smile and she walked out of the bathroom laughing like it was great. And it was no, there was no issue, but it was this moment where I was like, wow, if I was a religious person or a suppressive person or some person with some sexual issues, this could be a real problem for this little girl. Instead, I was like, "Okay, let's get out of the bathroom now." (laughs)

   2. CPChuck Palahniuk45:32

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:33

      I guess you're done, all righty. And she has no idea that this was even, like, a moment of, you know, crisis in my mind where I was like, okay, how do I handle this? I'm in the bathroom with my seven-year-old daughter just getting water shot up her ass and she's enjoying it. What-

   4. CPChuck Palahniuk45:51

      You, so you talk about it on the radio? Is that how you deal with it?

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:53

      I enjoy it too.

   6. CPChuck Palahniuk45:55

      (laughs) Sure.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:55

      I enjoy it too. We all do. We talk about these toilets. They're amazing.

   8. CPChuck Palahniuk45:59

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:59

      It's warm water. It shoots into your ear. It's great. It feels awesome. But it's not supposed to feel awesome for, like, a little girl for some reason, right?

   10. CPChuck Palahniuk46:09

       See, you tell that story and people will have so many versions of that story.

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       Oh, yeah.

   12. CPChuck Palahniuk46:13

       For me, I was in Germany. I went in a bathroom in the airport. I didn't know what this button was, so I pressed it. I looked down just in time to see this little plastic arm swing out. I didn't know what that thing was gonna do. So I jumped off the head and this thing shot up with such force-

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:31

       (laughs)

   14. CPChuck Palahniuk46:31

       ... it knocked a ceiling panel out of the ceiling.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:34

       (laughs)

   16. CPChuck Palahniuk46:34

       And all this hot toilet water came sprinkling down on me.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       Uh.

   18. CPChuck Palahniuk46:39

       And that's the only time I've ever been around one of those.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:43

       Well, we have one here if you wanna try it out.

   20. CPChuck Palahniuk46:45

       I, uh, no-

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       I don't know. It scares me. There's two of them. There's one in that bathroom, one in that one. One in that bathroom, you could lock. It's private.

   22. CPChuck Palahniuk46:54

       And see, that's my process-

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:55

       Yeah.

   24. CPChuck Palahniuk46:55

       ... is you, you tell these stories and you kind of gather the stories that people tell related to these stories and you choose the ones that escalate the fastest, that escalate the best. And that gives you a gradual sort of, you've established the precedent and then something worse, escalating worse, escalating worse, escalating to the most atrocious or extreme version. And that's what brings a story to crisis.

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:23

       I, I have a hard time believing that someone would be angry at that woman for her story.

   26. CPChuck Palahniuk47:30

       You know, and it's not, it's har- it's about her and her story.

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:34

       Right.

   28. CPChuck Palahniuk47:34

       Her relationship to that story.

   29. JRJoe Rogan47:37

       That one you're gonna get away with. You'll get away with that one. The j- jerking off the grandfather one is in a different place. Like, she's, she's a victim of sexual abuse. She's a victim of vi- it's w- strange that violence, for some reason, is more acceptable than sexual abuse in a lot of ways. Sexual abuse seems to be transformative, like there's something about sexual abuse that it, it ruins. You introduce, uh, an experience, a memory into a person's life that ruins them.

   30. CPChuck Palahniuk48:17

       Uh, uh, this is a rough segue, but I find with so many beginning writers is that they have absolutely no, uh, capacity to be with tension or suspense. So they might start to create suspense, but then they'll resolve it instantly, and so the story never really gets off the ground.... because something has happened to them, whether it's violent or whether it's sexual abuse, that, uh, that makes them cling to a kind of calm serenity. And that's all they want and that's all they ever want. And then writing, in a way, seems to be a way of coaching them back to a greater and greater tolerance with the unresolved, with the, with the tense, with suspense.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   (laughs) …

   1. CPChuck Palahniuk1:00:00

      "And that's why we have Sarah Jessica Parker."

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

      (laughs)

   3. CPChuck Palahniuk1:00:06

      And I said this in New York. And in New York, Sarah Jessica Parker is worshiped like a god. And that whole crowd hissed and booed and did everything but throw excrement at me.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:22

      Wow.

   5. CPChuck Palahniuk1:00:23

      But then later in line, half of them came up and whispered, "That was really funny."

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:31

      (laughs) Yeah, that's... Well, that's one of the things about dark comedy clubs. Y- You want them dark.

   7. CPChuck Palahniuk1:00:36

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

      You know? You don't want everyone illuminated. Like, the... When the, the crowd is... Like, the... When... It's one of the real issues with doing a comedy special is that, uh, especially the old way they used to do them, they used to like to light up the audience, which completely changes the dynamic of the, the room, changes what you'll laugh and what you won't laugh at.... you know, and a scene like the Sarah Ca- Sarah Jessica Parker joke. It's a perfect example. Like, you don't wanna be caught dead being the one person that throws their head back and howls at that.

   9. CPChuck Palahniuk1:01:04

      (clicks tongue) You know, cheap shots, uh, just, just stay away from them. But that's another... I'll ask you, ask you a question. You know, with so many colleges becoming these kind of strident, safe places that demand their own aesthetic, what is it like doing comedy?

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

       Well, it, it hasn't changed that much. People have gotten a little, gotten a little bit more sensitive because they're aware that other people are more sensitive. With the, the audiences that come to nightclubs, which is primarily where I perform... If I do a theater, those people are there to see me, so that's, they're, they're usually pretty loose, pretty fun. But if you're in a nightclub, they're there to see especially The Comedy Store. One of the good things about The Comedy Store is there's literally two dozen people in the lineup. They're not necessarily just there to see you. They're there to see Anthony Jeselnik and Chris D'Elia and all these other comedians that are also there as well. So you get a, uh, a real- a much broader comedy audience. But they're nightclub audiences. They have a few drinks in them. Maybe they smoked a little pot before they got there. Those people are there to have a good time. Colleges are a nightmare now.

   11. CPChuck Palahniuk1:02:17

       Hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:17

       It's a nightmare because it's recreational outrage. It's, it's kids who have been under the control of their parents for most of their life and haven't had their own sovereignty and identity and now they're free. And they, uh, are very quick to, uh, be outraged. They, they wanna point out their moral superiority. They wanna virtue signal on every opportunity. They wanna shut down anything they think is, air quotes, "problematic." They don't want things to go in a bad way, and they think for some reason that comedy should be uplifting, and it should only punch up. Like, I've, uh, I had this conversation once with a professor who wrote a book on comedy, and he said, "All great comedy punches up." And I said, "That's bullshit." I said, "One of the greatest bits of all time is Sam Kinnison's bit about starving children in Africa, about watching those commercials, where starving kids are in Africa and, you know, and the, 'Couldn't you please help?'" And he goes in... you know, and Kinnison's like, he just wanted to grab the guy with, "Hey, why don't you help them? You're right fucking there! Or send someone like me!" He goes, "Send someone like me, who's gonna take these people and go, 'Hey, we just drove here 5,000 miles with your food, and it occurred to us you wouldn't be world hungry if you people would live where the fucking food is!'" He goes, "Come here! You see that? That's sand! We got sand in America too! We just don't live in it, asshole!" And he's go- he goes, and one of the greatest bits of all time is literally about starving babies in Africa. It's one of the greatest bits of all time, and he didn't have anything to say. He didn't know where to go with it. I'm like, don't, don't say comedy is only about punching up. That's crazy talk. That's... What you're doing is you're f- you're... There's, there's a, this moral thing that they're trying to achieve that literally is completely independent of humor. It's not what's funny. It's like they're, they, they want to, they want it to be a, a multipurpose tool.

   13. CPChuck Palahniuk1:04:14

       Hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:04:14

       They want it to be funny as well as morally uplifting and great for people who are discriminated against and amazing for folks who are marginalized and uplifting for those who are disenfranchised. Well, that's not what comedy is. What comedy is, is funny. Those things are wonderful in ter- uh, if you wanna do a spoken word show or poetry or writing or, you know, a one-person play. Those, those are great. But that's not funny. Comedy is funny. So it's either funny or it's not funny. And some things are funny that are fucked up. You know, Kinnison had a bit about homosexual necrophiliacs who were paying money to spend, uh, a few hours undisturbed with the freshest male corpses. And he, so he would lie down on his stomach, and he goes, "You imagine these people? They're on the slabs. They're like, 'Well, (sighs) went through life and had a good time and everything, and now I guess I'm gonna go and be with Jesus, and hey, what the hell is this?'" And he's rocking back and forth. "'It feels like some guy's got his dick in my ass! You mean life keeps fucking you in the ass even after you're dead? It never ends! It never ends! Oh! Oh!'" He would close on it, 'cause it was th- he couldn't follow it. It was such a powerful bit. It was about a dead guy getting fucked in the ass. There is no further down that you could punch other than starving babies in Africa.

   15. CPChuck Palahniuk1:05:37

       (clicks tongue) You know, and I'm not sure about if this is punching down, but do you remember the s- the, the routine that kind of put Whoopi Goldberg on the map a million years ago about being a Black surfer chick?

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:05:49

       No.

   17. CPChuck Palahniuk1:05:50

       Oh, you know, she did it on television. I must have seen it on cable when I was, like, 19 years old. But she talks in valley speak. Nobody's seen this Whoopi person before. She's brand new. Nobody's ever seen her on television. She's got this funny name, and she's doing this valley speak about being the only Black surfer chick on the beach, and she loves surfing, and she loves this one white surfer guy, and she finally hooks up with him, and then she realizes she's pregnant, and it's all very funny. The whole front end, you're just roaring with laughter. And then then, she's pregnant, and she doesn't know what to do, so she gets a rusty wire coat hanger, and she goes into a public bathroom on the beach, and she gives herself a coat hanger abortion.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:06:35

       (gasps)

   19. CPChuck Palahniuk1:06:35

       And it spills out there on the concrete floor. And everything's okay, and now I'm back on the beach, and I'm just doing fine, and, and why don't you come on down and see me here on the beach? It's great down here. It's great.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:06:50

       Holy shit.

   21. CPChuck Palahniuk1:06:51

       It's a fantastic piece, and she-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:06:54

       She did that on television?

   23. CPChuck Palahniuk1:06:55

       She did it on TV, and it started so light, like an Ira Levin novel...... and then it went to such a dark, horrible place. And then it came up with just this kind of token, everything is okay ending. Every- I'm gonna be all right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:07:13

       Don't worry.

   25. CPChuck Palahniuk1:07:14

       This is just something that happened.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:07:16

       Be happy.

   27. CPChuck Palahniuk1:07:16

       (laughs) Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:07:18

       Do, do, do, do, do.

   29. CPChuck Palahniuk1:07:19

       That it just leaves you shaken.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:07:22

       Ah.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:25:21

   How much does he…

   1. CPChuck Palahniuk1:15:00

      came through. And every time I requested them, the publisher said that they had been paid, but the accountant said that there were, uh, technical difficulties with wiring me the money or he had personal problems in his life caring for his mother. And so there was always some reason why the money never came through. And finally, um, I kind of... I told my agent I didn't want to do any more deals until we had this money thing resolved. And at that point, the accountant, uh, made a videotaped confession, and has since pled guilty, uh, and I believe his sentencing is gonna be in November. Um, but according to the district attorney, they can't seem to find any of the money. So, the money seems to be gone.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:46

      How much does he steal?

   3. CPChuck Palahniuk1:15:47

      You know, it's kind of up in the air. It's, uh... Initially they said it was 3.5 million, and now they're saying it could be as much as 25 million. And this is from not just me. This is from Mario Puzo's estate, the man that wrote The Godfather. This is from a lot of different estates. Uh, the agency handled the estate of- of, uh, Lillian Hellman and Jacqueline Susann, and a lot of very big, big writers. Uh, Edward Gorey, who wrote those creepy, wonderful cartoon books. Uh, a lot of different writers, a lot of different estates lost money.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:16:20

      So was this guy doing this from the jump or does this... somewhere along the line, he lost his mind?

   5. CPChuck Palahniuk1:16:26

      Nobody really knows.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:16:27

      Yeah. Wow.

   7. CPChuck Palahniuk1:16:30

      Jamie, can you hit that pause button while I go out and take a leak?

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:16:34

      Just go out and take a leak.

   9. NANarrator1:16:35

      Okay.

   10. CPChuck Palahniuk1:16:35

       Oh, thank God.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:16:36

       Go ahead. Don't worry about it, man. I know it's rough.

   12. CPChuck Palahniuk1:16:40

       Um-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:16:40

       Get used to it, though.

   14. CPChuck Palahniuk1:16:41

       What, uh... Are we anywhere close to 3:30?

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:16:44

       We... No. It's, it's 2:30, but we can end any time you'd like.

   16. CPChuck Palahniuk1:16:48

       Oh, 3:30. No, 3:30 is kind of my, uh, drop dead.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:16:50

       Okay.

   18. CPChuck Palahniuk1:16:51

       But, uh, I'll be right back.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:16:52

       Okay. Uh, Neil deGrasse Tyson's here, ladies and gentlemen. He's waiting. He got here way early though, right?

   20. NANarrator1:16:58

       Yeah, he... That was the plan. He's just got some work to do before, so...

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:17:01

       Oh, okay. He's probably in the tank right now.

   22. NANarrator1:17:04

       Yeah, maybe.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:17:04

       I hope. This dude's intense, right?

   24. NANarrator1:17:07

       Yeah, man.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:17:07

       I can't believe I fucked up that original story.

   26. NANarrator1:17:09

       Yeah, that's all right. I was trying to look to see if it was someone else, but-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:17:12

       I thought... Man, I really thought it was attributed to him. But that's me.

   28. NANarrator1:17:16

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:17:17

       My fucked-up brain. He's intense, though.

   30. NANarrator1:17:20

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:07:03