EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,049 words- 0:00 – 1:41
Hawaii on the front lines: volcanoes, hurricanes, and leaving paradise for DC
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. Five, four, three, two, one. Boom! And we're live. Hawaii in the house.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Aloha.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Nice to see you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thanks for doing this.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Thanks for having me.
- JRJoe Rogan
What a great place to be a congressperson.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
The best.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ho- You're in paradise.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. It's, it's hard to leave to go to Washington, I tell you what.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's one place, if it wasn't for the storms and the fact that it's really a volcano... (laughs)
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. (laughs) As we've seen all too evident just recently.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I have a friend who goes to the Big Island every year for Thanksgiving, and he convinced me to go, uh, two years in a row. It was awesome. I loved it, but then this year, I'm like, "Uh, I don't know, bro."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems like it's shooting rocks into the sky-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and, uh, half of it's on fire.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. That, that's been, uh, that's in- So, that's my district. My district in Hawaii covers basically the whole state, except for the, the densely populated urban corridor of Honolulu.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, so you're lucky.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You, you c- you cover everything except the problem spot. (laughs)
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs) The city. The city. So, um, no, it's, it's been tough. It's been a tough year because of those folks in the, the District of Puna with the volcano.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, we have gone through a few near misses with hurricanes, some big flooding on Kauai, and now we've got another one that's, uh, knocking on our door.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. You guys just, uh, uh, s- What was it? A level four just passed.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It was five. It was five. They were expecting-
- JRJoe Rogan
And then it got knocked down.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... it to be kind of the same intensity that Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands saw. So, we were really, like, encouraging everyone to get prepared, getting prepared ourselves, like boarding up all the doors and windows. And then, thank God, it turned into a tropical storm at the end and we had some, a lot of rain. We still had some flooding, but w- compared to what it could have been, we're fortunate.
- 1:41 – 6:34
The Hawaii missile alert false alarm: 18 minutes of existential panic
- JRJoe Rogan
And then on top of that, you guys had a false alarm-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... where a text went out to everybody in the islands-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... saying that a nuclear missile was headed your way, and this was not a drill. What the hell happened there?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
On top of all that. My gosh. Um, I was in Washington when that happened. It was a Saturday-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... afternoon-ish in DC time, you know, early morning in Hawaii. And, uh, somebody f- from Hawaii sent me a, a, a screen capture of that alert that went out to over a million cell phones across our state saying, uh, you know, "Ballistic missile headed towards Hawaii. Seek cover. This is not a drill."
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What does that feel like? I mean, until you find out that it's not ... How long did it take before you found out that it wasn't real?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
So, I immediately started thinking ... I mean, I'm ... So many things running through my head. I'm thinking about my parents, my husband, my family, everybody is in Hawaii. I start thinking about what's going on in the state. Is this real? Is it not real? So, that was kind of the first thing, like, I kicked into gear, like, "Okay, let's, let's make sure this is legitimate." Um, the actual threat from North Korea is a very real one, so it could very well be. It was not obvious that this was just a mistake that people should blow off. And that was what I think most of the people in the state understood as they started thinking through, "What do we do with the last minutes of our lives?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Whew. Oof.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
So, I called, um, ... The first person I called was our State Adjutant General, who is also the head of our Civil Defense and the National Guard, and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, God.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... called his cell phone. Thank God he answered the phone, and I said, "I got this message. What's going on?" And he said, uh, "It's a false alarm. It was sent out as a mistake." So, I said, "Okay. I'm gonna blast that out." So, I got on Twitter, and I put that out just saying, "Hey, this is not accurate." I forget exactly what I said, but basically, "This is a false alarm." And then just started getting on the phone, making as many calls as I possibly could. But as I was doing that, I was getting text messages and, and emails and things from people who were freaking out. Um, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
How far is Korea from Hawaii?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, it's o- it's over 4,000 miles. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's not very far for a nuclear missile.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It's, for, for an intercontinental ballistic missile, and knowing progressively, just over the six years that I've been in Congress ... And this was a major issue, um, that I've been bringing up since I've been there, and just raising the alarm bells that North Korea is increasing their capacity and their, their ballistic missile capabilities that put Hawaii closer and closer within reach, Hawaii and Alaska, uh, particularly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oof.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And that's why, you know ... And, and, and after people started getting the word that this was a false alarm, um, I started hearing from folks who just shared their stories of what they went through. And, you know, on the news, they showed the guy who was lowering his daughter down a manhole-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... on the side of the street, his little girl.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, God.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, I heard from another guy who said that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oof.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... "You know, I had one kid in town in Honolulu and another kid in Waianae, over an hour drive." And he literally sat there thinking, "How am I gonna choose which child I'm gonna go and spend the last minutes of my life with?" 'Cause you're either driving in one direction or the other.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And so there's so many, so many stories of, um ...
- 6:34 – 11:38
North Korea, deterrence, and why regime-change wars fuel nuclear proliferation
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's so scary because it's such an erratic and dangerous regime. I mean, it's, when y- you see what that guy has already done-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and the people he's executed, including family members.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, he's a, quite a maniac and a legitimate dictator in the old world kinda sense. It's very strange that he's still... I mean, you would, you would think in the age that we live in, that it would be very difficult to control an entire country the way that they've controlled North Korea for so long-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... since the Korean War, but-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... they still can do it.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Th- they are, and I think that while it may be easy to write him off as a maniac, there has also been a very, um, consistent... Th- there, there has been a consistency throughout the different regimes of the Kim family, um, as they've developed this nuclear and nuclear missile capability in that they are doing it to, um, protect themselves against regime change war, essentially, and they have said it directly. Um, uh, you know, our, our US foreign policy experts point that out that this is the reason why they're developing this capability because they have seen how, if you look at Libya, for example-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... when Gaddafi was looking at, you know, building and acquiring nuclear weapons, um, he was doing so also as, you know, to protect himself and his regime, and then he made a deal with the United States saying, "Okay, give up your nuclear weapons, uh, program, and we're not gonna, you know, don't worry about it. We're not gonna touch you." And then, of course, we know what happened. The US led this regime change war, toppled Gaddafi, and, and North Korea says, "Okay, so that's what you do when you have, uh, you know, a, a leader of a country without nuclear weapons to protect themselves."
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's also the consequences of that regime change is a failed state.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's more terrifying than even when Gaddafi was in control.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, I, I'm sure you've seen the, uh, the slave trade videos from there.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It's horrifying.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's insane.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It is horrifying that this is happening-
- JRJoe Rogan
That you're watching it on YouTube, yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... right, in, in our lifetime.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And that this, this, um, this failed state has happened as a direct result of our policy there, our failed continuation of these regime change wars that we carry out in different parts of the world.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, it's almost like we don't learn from our mistakes. Uh, I, and I don't know what the, the proper solution is. I mean, do you keep someone like Saddam Hussein or someone like Muammar Gaddafi, do you keep them in power and let them still be horrific dictators and evil maniacs, or do you step in and cause more damage? I mean, it's, it's almost a lose-lose situation.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It, it's, yeah, it's not a good situation, but it's where we, as the United States, need to, um, be pragmatic about the situation and the fact that we live in the world that exists, not some kind of idealistic world that is a fantasy, and then think about how, um, counterproductive our acting as the world's police has been, has proven to be in example after example after example. So yes, there are bad people in the world who do horrifying things. But is it really in our place to go in and take action and say, "Okay, we're gonna remove this person, and then we're gonna put this person in, and this is how you're gonna govern this country," and, and really acting, uh, acting as the world's police? And therefore... And then, as a result, as we've seen in Iraq and Libya and now in Syria, the people in those countries are far worse off than they were before. We have... And, and it's counterproductive for our interests as well-
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat)
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... because we have Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and these other terrorist groups who have been strengthened directly as a result of our policies in these countries.
- JRJoe Rogan
When you talk to people in the intelligence community, what, what do they think? I mean, uh, either off the record or on the record, what do they think is the solution for situations like that?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, many of them are, uh, hesitant to, to share their own opinion because especially in the intelligence community, um, their job is to report on what they're hearing, what they're gathering, the intel that they're bringing in, and so on and so forth. Uh, but, you know, when, when you, when you talk with folks who operate in that space, um, the ones who are honest and not trying to further a specific agenda or cover somebody else's bad decisions, um, there is a recognition of how our policies of, of the past decades have failed people in those countries and us.
- 11:38 – 13:04
Why intervention keeps happening: incentives, the military-industrial complex, and Yemen
- JRJoe Rogan
So why are we keeping doing it?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Worse for the people in those countries as well as is, as we should be thinking about before we take any of these actions is, how does this best serve the interests of our people-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... in this country? And these actions have been counter to those best interests.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And so your, your question about w- so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... why do we keep doing this?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, I think there are a lot of different things that go into that and to drive that. You know, you have the military-industrial complex that benefits and makes a lot of money off of our being in a, in a perpetual state of war.You have a lot of other countries, like Saudi Arabia, for example, who dump a lot of money into the United States, uh, and, and, um, kind of try to use our US military as their force to go in and, and do certain things in the Middle East that's more beneficial to Saudi Arabia. Uh, we see this happening in Yemen right now, yet another example, interventionist war, jumping in there. We're, uh, supporting Saudi Arabia and their coalition in this war that's created the worst humanitarian disaster in the world. They just bombed a school bus and killed 40 kids a couple of weeks ago in Yemen, Yemeni civilians, bombed weddings in Yemen, and yet, uh, our US government is not saying, "Hey, we're, we're gonna stop and yank all of our support for Saudi Arabia." They're, they're continuing to do it.
- 13:04 – 17:13
A veteran in Congress: the cost of war and the ‘cavalier’ decision-makers
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, you're a veteran. As a veteran, d- I mean, you, you've served our country. You've, you've put yourself in harm's way. You, you were a part of the military. Uh, there are so many people that are making these decisions that have not done that.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think that's part of the problem?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yes. And that was, that was one of the main reasons that I ran for Congress in the first place. Having come back from, uh, my, my own deployments to the Middle East with the Hawaii Army National Guard, um, experiencing and seeing firsthand the cost of war, both on our troops, on our friends who didn't make that trip home with us, as well as on the people, the people in these countries where we were. And I came back and, and saw just the cavalier attitude that, that a lot of politicians take-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... to making these decisions. And, and I, I worked in a medical unit in my deployment to Iraq. Um, we were in a base about 40 miles north of Baghdad, and, um, our base where we were was, was, uh, nicknamed Mortaritaville because of the constant, almost daily mortar attacks. And every day, part of my job was to go through a list of all of the American, um, injuries and casualties that had happened the day before to try to see if there were any of our close to 3,000, um, Hawaii soldiers who had been hurt, and to then make sure that they were getting the care they needed, either in country or get them evacuated as quickly as possible. And just going through, going through that list name by name every day, um, whether there were people on there who I knew personally or, you know, people who I would never meet, and knowing about the family members and the loved ones, moms, dads, kids at home who were, you know, stressed out every day, fearing getting that phone call that their loved one had been hurt or worse, um, killed in action. And I wondered then, you know, how many of these politicians who, who make these votes and who make these decisions actually think about this or who lose sleep on this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think a solution to that would be mandatory military service for people who are in those positions?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I don't.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think the solution is?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Because as a soldier, I don't, you know, I don't want somebody in my foxhole who doesn't wanna be there-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... first of all. I think it's im- you know, having an all volunteer force, which we have, um, is a positive thing. I think that the American people need to impress upon their leaders, um, the importance of taking these decisions very seriously, that if they want to represent and make, represent the American people and make these decisions for our troops and for our country, they need to understand who pays that price for the cost of war. And yes, it is every single one of our service members, both those who pay the ultimate price as well as those who come home with both visible and invisible wounds, um, and who will continue paying that price for a very long time to come, but also every one of our communities filled with people who may not have worn the uniform, but who've had trillions of dollars taken out of their wallet to pay for these counterproductive interventionist wars as we, in Hawaii, for example, struggle to put air conditioners in schools where kids are trying to study in over 100 degree heat, as we deal with massive infrastructure problems, people in Michigan, they just shut down the water system in a bunch of schools in Detroit because they have lead poison in the water for the kids. So, the kids are not able to use the water fountains at school. So, we have major infrastructure, major ch- challenges and issues, and so making sure that leaders are held accountable for the decisions that they're making is ultimately what needs to happen.
- 17:13 – 21:13
Media narratives, authenticity, and how alternative outlets change voter awareness
- JRJoe Rogan
One of the things I like about you and one of the things I've liked about a lot of your interviews is you're of an obvious genuine person. Like, if you're not genuine, I'd be very shocked. Um, that's very rare. So, when you're talking about these politicians and having these people being held accountable, it's a real problem, but one of the problems with politics and one of the problems with public speaking and being charismatic is a lot of these people are just really good at being full of shit, and because they're really good at being full of shit, a lot of slack-jawed dumb-dumbs out there buy into it hook, line, and sinker-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... wave that flag and kiss those babies, and they vote these dummies into office. And this happens time and time again.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, saying you n- these people need to be aware of the consequences-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... or they need to be he- held accountable, I firmly believe there's more sociopaths than we really think. I really do.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think if you look at the general consensus, it's something like, what is it, one out of 100 or something like that? What do they think it is? Maybe more?I think it might be 10%.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think there's a lot of people that get through l- life doing things and getting away with things and not doing things that are gonna cause them either danger or social consequences. But they, but they manage to get through life with a song and a dance.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But they're not genuine.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think this is a giant problem with people that want to be in a position of power in the first place.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, why would they ... Like, why does a guy like Donald Trump want to be the fucking president?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
When you have billions of dollars in the bank, like, what are you doing?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why are you doing that?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's ... There's a weird motivation that a lot of these people have.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that motivation is to be the uber, you know, to be the king-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to be the, the top of the heap, to be the queen, whatever it is. Um, I don't know how you change that in those people. I don't think making them aware of the consequences of their decisions is gonna work. E- uh, they're j- ... It's just the type of people who they are in the first place.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I don't ... Yeah. You're ... Yeah. I think you're not wrong. However, I've just seen over the last few years, um, the level of awareness amongst people, amongst voters has been increasing as there are more and more kind of non-mainstream media outlets that are shining light on these kinds of issues. And, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
When you say non-mainstream-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Meaning-
- 21:13 – 24:33
Hidden war authorization: the Iran provision and Congress sleepwalking into conflict
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. The, the, the, the idea of trying to educate politicians on the consequences and what that, what that really means, and this, the, the cavalier attitude that you were talking about, like, what's a worst example of that? Like, when y- when you're, you're talking about cavalier behavior by these people that make these decisions.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what kind of things have you seen?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um ... Well, I'll speak to something that happened most recently. I think there are probably a number of examples. But, um, just a couple of months ago, in the big defense authorization bill that, that is kind of one of the, the, the only must-pass pieces of legislation in Congress every year, there was a, a three-page provision that was kind of put in there without really any debate in the committee or anything like that, that would essentially authorize, um, the United States to go to war with Iran. Now, you would think something like that with that magnitude would be kind of a big deal. You would wanna have hearings. You would wanna have, be, uh, questioned on strategy, objectives, cost, like, all of these different things. That didn't happen. So when this bill came to the floor of the House where all 435 members of Congress have the ability to vote yes or no, I just put in an amendment that would've deleted those three pages from this big thousands-page bill. Um, and, and basically, those provisions said that Congress is authorizing the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense to create and implement a strategy to counter Iran. Not just come and, "Hey, bring us your strategy, and let us talk about it and see whether or not we agree and approve." It was giving the power to the Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense to create and implement a strategy to counter Iran. Extremely dangerous and a blank check to essentially start a brand new war that currently has not been declared. I introduced this amendment, I don't know if you wanna take a guess on how many people voted for it.
- JRJoe Rogan
How many?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
60.
- JRJoe Rogan
Exhales ]
- TGTulsi Gabbard
60.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why wouldn't they?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why, why would they want that blank check?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
There are some people who legitimately do want to, do want us to go to war with Iran.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, who are those people?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, gosh.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't have to name names, but-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
There, there's a, there are, I would say, it's a bipartisan feeling.
- JRJoe Rogan
And why do they want that?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, because Iran ... Uh, they, they feel that Iran is a threat to both the United States and Israel. And Iran is and has been for a long time, they feel, um, a menace, I guess, essentially, and our enemy, even though Congress has not declared war, uh, even though, you know, we, our country just signed a nuclear deal to make it so that they can't build a nuclear weapon-Um, it's- it's, uh, it- it gets to a point where it seems like, uh, hysteria. But again, it's not based on an actual thinking through tactically and strategically and responsibly what we are actually doing and what our policy is.
- 24:33 – 45:09
Generational leadership and tech literacy: Future Caucus, Big Tech hearings, and troll farms
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you one of the younger people in Congress?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. You could say that. There's- there's a handful of us who are under 40, not many, small handful.
- JRJoe Rogan
And is that ... I mean, you're- you're a person who ... What are you, like, 37?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
37. Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You- you're not allowed to ask ladies usually.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But y- you're a congresswoman.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Politicians are an exception, I guess. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Let's ... Everything has to be on the table.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
We have to be a certain age to run for office.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
So, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Well, how old would you have to be to be president?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, 35.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, so you could get in there.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you thought about it?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, you know, a lot of people-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, you know means yes.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
A lot of people have been ... Um, especially with everything that's going on, have been kind of urging me to, um, to consider it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, you know, I'm fo- I'm focused on home. I'm focused on Hawaii.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, wanna do my very best to be able to serve them and our country. And, um, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems like it's too much work, too.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(clicks tongue) It's a lot.
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems like too much.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It's a lot.
- JRJoe Rogan
It ages the shit out of people.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- 45:09 – 53:16
Election integrity: hacking risks, paper ballots, and why fixes stall
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and y- that's one of the more dangerous things, I think, about having a person like Trump as president, is that it's eroding people's confidence in the person that runs the big show.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that y- you're- you're-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
That's one of, that's one of a number of things that have eroded people's confidence. I think if you, if you take that one step further and look at how people's confidence in our entire election system has been eroded, uh, when you look at all of the vulnerabilities that exist, a lot of the stuff that's being talked about now-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you mean in terms of electronic voting, like the machines?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Or ... Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yes. I think, overall, people doubt whether or not their votes matter, first of all.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you see the documentary, Hacking Democracy?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
No, I didn't.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's fascinating, and it was in regards to ... What, what year was that? I wanna say it's 2008. Was it eight? Six. Six. So, it was about Bush and Kerry, right? Wasn't that-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Was it Bush and Gore?
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it Bush and Gore? Whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, both. Both, both elections, actually.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. But it showed how there is built-in third-party access. So, it's literally built-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... into-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the system-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that a third party can influence the count.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they showed how they did it on the, um, in the actual documentary. They used these machines and influenced the results.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I mean, it's-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah, what, what to speak of the, uh, the, the DEF CON hacking conference that just happened, or happens annually in Vegas, but they just had one this year a couple of months ago, maybe a few weeks ago, where an eleven, 11-year-old girl hacked into a replica of Florida's, uh, election system and changed the outcome of their election in less than 15 minutes.
- JRJoe Rogan
There it is. An 11-year-old hacked into US voting system-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
There you go.
- JRJoe Rogan
... replica in 10 minutes this weekend. (laughs) Wow. Lizards.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
11 years old.
- 53:16 – 1:03:51
Democratic Party reforms: superdelegates, open primaries, and restoring trust
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm. Well, that, that points to, um, the, the superdelegate issue that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... Democrats have been dealing with, where people who have been arguing to keep the system of superdelegates, where in a state like mine, in Hawaii, for example, we've got four superdelegate votes. Uh, two for the members of Congress and two for the senators.
- JRJoe Rogan
Explain that to people who don't know what a superdelegate is.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
So, this is something that is, um, created by the political parties themselves. So, the Democratic Party has, has been using the superdelegate system where, um, as people are running for president, you have a certain number of, of delegates that go to one person or another, uh, based on that state's rules. So, some states say it's winner take all. Other states say that it's proportional. So, if you get 60% of the vote, that means you get 60% of the delegates. But then you have this special category of superdelegates, which there, there are over 700 of them. It includes all 435 members of, of, or, or sorry, all, um, Democratic members of Congress, Democrats in the Senate, and people who are appointed by, uh, the party leadership, both at the state and the national level. And so, um, what we saw in, in m- in my state of Hawaii, for example, is over 70% of the voters voted for Bernie Sanders, but out of those four superdelegate votes, he got one.... which was mine. So, the superdelegates don't have to cast their votes to reflect how the, their constituents voted. Which-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, how did the rest of them vote?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
They voted for Hillary. So, that puts you in a situation where ... And this is not about, "Well, Bernie would have won without superdelegates." This is not even what that's about. This is about really looking at people casting their votes, and then you have this special group of people who are either elected or appointed who can then say, "Nah, I don't, I don't agree with the way that the people in my state or my district voted, so I'm just gonna vote the other way," and then shift, uh, potentially the outcome of that election for that state or for the country.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, did it shift it for Hawaii?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. Yeah. So, Hillary won Hawaii's, um, uh, superdelegates, but the people voted differently.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it was 70% of the people voted-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... for Bernie?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It was ... It wasn't close. It was, it was, it was overwhelming.
- JRJoe Rogan
But she won the state?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And that was how y- how you saw, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so dirty.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... in some states where, you know, I think, I don't know, Vermont. Uh, there, there were a few other states that I remember looking at where, um, when they were counting the votes as they were coming in, they would report one number, but if Bernie won the state, his number was zero, and then there was a certain number that was already built into Hillary's count before the votes were even finally tallied because she had already had the declared support of those superdelegates within that state.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- TGTulsi Gabbard
So, the Republicans don't do this. I think they may have superdelegates, but those superdelegates are required to, um, reflect the votes of their constituencies, so they don't have the freedom to change their, change their vote or change their mind. But, um, yeah. This is, uh, this is, so this is something that I've been f- I've been fighting to, to try to reform within our party, is to get rid of superdelegates, to, uh, make it so that we have open primaries so that you don't have to be a card-carrying party member to vote in a Democratic primary, 'cause that was another problem we saw across the country, where people were turned away because in some cases, well, you didn't register with the party a year ago, which is the requirement. And so, um, have open primaries, and then you have same-day registration. If you're not registered to vote, you should be able to register to vote on the day of the election so that you can participate in our democracy. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Those things seem so clear-cut. They seem so cut and dry.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
They are.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the, the, the superdelegate issue in particular, it's, that's so disturbing.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That seems so dirty.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. So, there's been some progress made since then, though. Just recently, the DNC had a meeting where, uh, it was a very strong majority of people who voted to bar superdelegates from, uh, casting their, their own free votes in the first ballot in a presidential, um, convention. So, I don't know. It, it's been a long time since, uh, uh, uh, it's gone to the second or third ballot, but that, that was a, a major step forward to make sure that as people are going and casting their votes in these primaries, that they're not risking being overruled by, again, a group of special individuals who are elected officials, who are lobbyists, and who are party officials and people coming from all different backgrounds.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there any w- resistance to getting rid of these superdelegates?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Oh, yeah. The resistance was very strong. It was not a given that this was gonna-
- JRJoe Rogan
Who are these people?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... pass at all. People who are very, very invested in this system, uh, who-
- JRJoe Rogan
But it seems like they would have to be invested in keeping the system rigged, like making it easy to influence elections by having these few people that you can control, having influence over these people. These people have massive influence over the results of the election. That is so-
- 1:03:51 – 1:09:45
Automation and Universal Basic Income: funding, incentives, and purpose beyond jobs
- JRJoe Rogan
(smacks lips) There's a lot of things that, uh, have been discussed in terms of the future of, uh, of economics in particular with regards to artificial intelligence-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and automation and these radical changes that are probably coming whether we like it or not. And one of the things that's been discussed, uh, as a potential solution to some of the economic woes is a universal basic income.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you studied this?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I'm studying it now. I'm looking at some of the places that have, um, have or are currently kind of launching pilot projects. I know there's a, a European country that did a two-year pilot and then they decided not to go down that route. Um, I think there's, uh ... So, so yeah, I'm, I'm taking a hard look at this because there, there are strong arguments, I think, on, on both sides. We gotta look and see what, um, what would the effects actually be?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I'm s- I'm torn on it as well. I'm very open to the idea of it because I think that we, we very well could run into a situation where millions of people are almost instantly out of jobs.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And there's no solution for that. And then part of-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Out of jobs by their choice or ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Out of jobs by automation.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Out of jobs by artificial intelligence-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Oh, yeah. Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
... taking over their positions.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I mean, this is a real problem.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, and I don't think ... I, I don't think it's gonna, I don't think it's gonna happen slowly.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think that problem's gonna stumble onto us very quickly.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And we are not prepared for this. And then there's the problem psychologically. People th- say that, "Well, if you just give people money, you take away their ambition and their will, and one of the things that makes America great is that people hustle."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that you give a bunch of people money that they don't earn, and they're gonna be lazy.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And this is the-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... this is the hard line-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
The different, the different counterarguments.
- 1:09:45 – 1:22:23
Root causes in education and healthcare: debt traps, preventive medicine, and tech-enabled care
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a very good point, because I think the system that we have in place is not perfect, but yet we're not fixing it.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
We're not changing it, and college education is essentially subsidized. And you have so much money-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... that these kids are in debt with by the time they graduate. I mean, I had a friend who made it through medical school and by the time he got out, he owed more than a quarter million dollars. And I was like, "That is fucking crazy."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah, it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's like, "When people talk about doctors and they talk about doctors being greedy,"-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... he goes, "you have to understand that so many of them are struggling just to stay alive."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
"They're struggling just to pay their own bills and keep the lights on." The reason why they wanna see 20, 30 people a day and just keep pumping in the numbers and just constantly, uh, you know, do whatever they have to do, whether it's operations or whatever it is-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and that they're not considering the overall health and welfare of these people, and looking at all these different solutions, whether it's nutrition, or maybe there's a way to avoid surgery, or maybe there's a way to, you know, figure out a way to strengthen your body first before we do this, or maybe we alter your diet. And maybe you're not getting enough sleep, let's take that into consideration.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what kind of pills are you on?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And how are they negatively affecting your health? They don't have the time for that.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They have another person that's waiting, and then another person that's waiting, and they have to keep those people coming in because they need that money.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, it's-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... ba- bananas.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It is. And, and that's where, whether we're talking about the cost of education, um, or the cost of healthcare for that matter, when we, when we look at technology and how we can, um, both bring down cost and improve quality in these areas, um, I think there's, there's tremendous opportunity. Um, in Hawaii there's a pilot program on, on the big island right now called Paramedicine, where current, like, Medicare reimbursement laws say that as our EMTs go out in ambulance to pick up somebody, um, they will only get reimbursed if they pick up that person and take them to an emergency room. So, nevermind if that person needs to get their prescription drugs refilled, which happens. They'll call 911 for that if they're living out in the boonies somewhere and they can't get to where they need to go. Or if that person needs to see a mental health professional or a social worker or anything else. So, this idea of Paramedicine that we're working on, uh, trying to build and, and actually, um, change some federal policy to help support is, um, really look out for what does this person actually need? And not just shove them into this healthcare system that drives up the cost for everyone.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And also use technology to do that. So I was asking him, "Okay, so you're not gonna be able to physically bring a social worker with you on all these calls. Like, that's not how you're gonna, um, economize your cost here." And he said, "Oh, no. We bring an iPad with us so there's a social worker at the clinic, and then we can dial them in and they can FaceTime with the person whose house that we've gone to if that's the service that they need, and they can start helping connect them to resources." So, that's where you're able to help kind of both bring down cost, but also making sure that we have the services accessible to those who need them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's a fantastic idea, just to avoid the trips to the doctor-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... for rudimentary things.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Right.
Episode duration: 1:43:41
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