Joe Rogan Experience #1171 - Nick Yarris

Joe Rogan 0:04 Three, two, one. Stir it up, Nick. We're live.

Nick Yarris 0:10 Hello, everyone.

Joe Rogan 0:11 Hello, everyone.

Nick Yarris 0:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:12 Put the, uh, ear cups on and cheers, sir.

Nick Yarris 0:15 Ah man, thank you, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Thanks for being here, man.

Nick Yarris 0:17 Yeah. Thank you for bringing me out here, man. I know we meant to do this before but I hope now with all this good energy between us, we can do this properly for your audience.

Joe Rogan 0:26 Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Nick Yarris 0:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:28 Listen, man. To say that you've had a crazy experience in this life is one of the most understated things a person could ever say. I mean, where do we begin, right? Let's... Tell everybody your story. So, you were wrongfully committed of murder. You spent 22 years on death row before you were exonerated by DNA evidence.

Nick Yarris 0:55 Hello, everyone.

Joe Rogan 0:56 (laughs)

Nick Yarris 0:56 My name is Nick Harris and I was, as Joe said, convicted and sentenced to die for a rape and murder I didn't commit at the age of 21. In 1981, a woman named, um, Mrs. Craig was murdered in Delaware. I had never met the woman. I was in prison on unrelated charges and I stupidly made up a story to try and get out of those charges. The police soon feel- realized that I was a liar and they fabricated the charges around me then. So, it's ironic then in a few days you're going to Upper Darby, Pennsylvania and-

Joe Rogan 1:33 Yeah.

Nick Yarris 1:33 ... that's where the murder happened really, basically. And Linda May Craig was leaving her job at 4:05 PM on December 15th, 1981. She's going home. She gets abducted. I don't know any of this, but I tried in desperations to get out of a lie that this officer put on me for... I, I got pulled over in a stolen car. The cop beats me up. He puts charges on me. I'm facing life imprisonment and I'm a junkie because all of my life I was destroyed by what happened to me at the age of seven. I had my head beaten in by a man with a rock in his hand after he sexually assaulted me and I did all the stupid things that people can do in the aftermath. I kept it a secret and I let it foster all the anger in me. I became very aggressive as a child and I ended up in trouble all the time. And m- uh, when I was in prison on these unrelated charges to the murder, I stupidly fell in them to that mindset of desperation of trying to get out of it. So, the police put a prisoner in the cell next to me. He said I confessed to him. I was given a three-day trial. I was sentenced to death and put on death row and then stupidly, I escaped from prison in 1985 and end up on the FBI's Most Wanted List. How did you get out?

Joe Rogan 2:49 How did you get out?

Nick Yarris 2:49 I was being transported to court and the sheriffs were being cool with me at first. They were talking about what was going on in Philly. They were two nice guys, like 60 s- s- 68, 67 and we drove five hours from one of the hardest prisons in America called Huntington and I left there after spending two years of my first two years in silence. So, if you opened your mouth, they would come in and beat your head in. So, I was so glad to get in the car 'cause my mom was waiting in my lawyer's office 'cause they were gonna give me a review of my trial because they withheld so much evidence. So, I was eager to go to court and it was the coldest day of 1985, February 15th. We stop at a gas station in, in Exton, Pennsylvania and as I got out of the car, the officer driving pulled past the cubicles. Now, we all got out of the car and ran over to the cubicle together and I went in and started peeing. And the officer's holding the door for me and my eyeglasses start fogging up. You know what I mean? 'Cause you go from the freezing cold to the warm to the cold, your eyeglasses... So, all I know is I turn around and I come out and he has the door like that and I put my head down, go under his arm and I turn left and go back to the car and a dude smoking a cigarette doesn't know that his partner went into the cubicle to piss. And as I'm running back to the dude, he pulls his pistol out and point-blank shoots at me, Joe, like pow. And as it went past my face I was like, "Oh, shit." I hit the ground. I ran and he followed me with the gun. I could feel it like on my... Like I was waiting for him to blast me, you know? Like...

Joe Rogan 4:29 Why did he shoot at you?

Nick Yarris 4:30 'Cause he thought I overpowered his partner.

Joe Rogan 4:33 Oh.

Nick Yarris 4:34 He doesn't know. His testimony at trial was, "I turned around. Nick's running at me and my partner's down or gone. I pulled my gun and he runs and I, I wasn't gonna let a death row prisoner run so I tried to stop him, I shot." So, I run around the corner. I hit the ground. I ripped all the skin off my hands. I run around the corner and I fly towards this restaurant and there's all these people innocently eating dinner and I'm running right towards the plate glass window 'cause he ain't gonna blast me, you know? And I ran like... I knew he couldn't shoot and then I shot around the corner and I ran down to a gas station. I tried to steal a car. That didn't work. Then I ran f- like 400 yards, 400 yards, 400 yards and I hid behind the car I just escaped from and I was laying in the weeds behind the gas station about 50 yards from him while they were screaming, "Who was the bigger idiot for letting this happen?" And I was thinking, "Oh my God." Like, "What am I doing? What do I do, Joe? What..." Like, how do I just jump up and say, "Wait a minute, it was a mistake." You know? He already tried to shoot me in the face.

Joe Rogan 5:31 Right.

Nick Yarris 5:32 So, I go hide behind the police station and next four hours, oh my God, I'm getting pai- chased by a helicopter and he chases me and he pins me and he chases me and I was so fit that I ran for four hours through the woods without care what the branches did to my face or nothing, man. I blew out both, uh, quads. I did my, my hamstrings. I ripped my feet open. I ran so hard in terror that I didn't care, man and I got away and I, I, I made it all the way to Florida and I was gonna leave the country and all this and I said, "I gotta go back."

Joe Rogan 6:04 How did you get to Florida?

Nick Yarris 6:05 I stole a dude's wallet in New York and I got on an airplane, and I went down to Florida, and I tried to rob a drug dealer, and I tried to do just... I was sitting there, I was so angry, I was gonna kill myself. I was on, uh... I'll never forget this day. (breathes deeply) I didn't want my folks to see me in prison handcuffs no more, you know? So, I was gonna buy a raft and I was gonna go out in the ocean and I was gonna have one last party with all the foods that I loved. Then I was gonna stab the raft, wait, and for the sharks after I cut my wrists, you know? And then I was gonna cap myself and go. Then I said, "No, I'm going back." So, I turned myself back in. They put me on death row in Florida, and I went back and I faced it, you know? So, they beat me for four minutes, man. They broke my face, broke my back, (breathes deeply) crushed me, man. Tortured me. And I thought, "I'm gonna get you back." You know? "For all the days you made me go in a cage and beat some other prisoner while you stood there with a club laughing at me, I'm gonna get you back.

Nick Yarris 7:06 I'm gonna make sure I start being a loving person again." So, I'm sitting there in 1985, 1986, with 105 years plus the death penalty, and I decided, "Fuck this, I'm gonna be a nice guy." So, I started to learn... Okay. I suffer from aphasia. I had my head beaten in with a rock. So-

Joe Rogan 7:30 What i- what is aphasia?

Nick Yarris 7:31 Aphasia can be identified simply in people who have stuttering disorder. Their brain and their, uh, ve- vernacular abilities are distorted by a disruption in their brain. Either their brain is functioning too fast or their mouth is functioning too fast, or there's a combination of it d- misfiring. And aphasia can be th- tr- through trauma or through genetics, and aphasia affected my life so much as a young person, I never had the respect to listen to people, 'cause I couldn't function, I couldn't articulate, I couldn't speak. When I was at trial people spoke words that I didn't understand, and it frustrated me, and when I tried to speak and I'd stutter, people would be like, "Da, da, da, come on, retard, what do you got to say?" So, after that beating, where they beat me for four minutes and they broke my face, (sniffs) I began practicing speaking to myself. Every day I learned new words, and I taught myself how to correctly articulate that word into a sentence beautifully from my own self in my cell every day. And then I became very, very good at writing. I began helping other prisoners. I became the most dangerous prisoner that they held because I cared about other men. I wrote to their mothers. I wrote letters to their lawyers. I gave up opportunities for people to write books about me so I could help another innocent man. I did all those things because that's how

Nick Yarris 9:02 I got back at them for that they did to me. So, in 1988, I'm sitting in my cell and I read about DNA, and I knew right then I could prove my innocence. So, I was the first man in America in February of 1988 to ask for DNA testing to prove my innocence, and they threw away all the autopsy material. And when I discovered new evidence, they destroyed that. And this woman who came to meet me and started visiting me fell in love with me and she believed in me, so she stood by me and told me that she would be with me either to the gallows walk or to the moment I proved my innocence. And for nine years she stood by me, you know? And finally, we found some evidence that was testable in 1995.

Joe Rogan 9:48 What is, what was the evidence?

Nick Yarris 9:50 It was sperm from the, uh, rape, and it was being sent out here to California to Dr. De- Deb- Edward Blake, and it broke open in transport and spilled. So, Jackie left me. I had nothing left. And then they put me in a special unit, and they started torturing me. I keep this part, quiet. I never told this story. It would ruin what happened in Fear Road 13 that's now out on Netflix. But they finally closed

Nick Yarris 10:20 down the old prison I was in for 12 years, where the average rate of survival was only five, and I was one of the hardest dudes there and I made it. They closed the prison down and they opened up Greene County Supermax, and the courts ordered that every prisoner in P- Pennsylvania be allowed out of their cell for eight hours. The administration looked at each other and said, "Fuck that, not the crazy cannibals and not the serial killers, not the dudes that have been assaulting and raping each other." So they picked 48 of us out and they put us in Pittsburgh in a special penitentiary setting in which we were in a sealed unit, and they put all these guards in there that weren't allowed to touch other prisoners 'cause they were so violent, and told them they're, "We're giving you the craziest of the crazy." You know Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs was a real man, right? His name was Gary Heidnik. He abducted Black women in Philadelphia and put them in a pit under his house and fed one of them to the other survivors 'cause he was building a master race. He was my neighbor, man. Like, so they started torturing us and doing all this psychological crazy shit to us where they were feeding us to each other like wolves. So, I kept it all quiet until this year when once again misfortune fell on my life and I released Monsters and Madmen, the new book that I was gonna give you today, and I- I thought, you know, "I gotta tell that story," you know? But it's been so hard to come back from these moments, Joe. It's just like, I look at what they did to me and how I went to that moment where the DNA is gone, Jackie leaves me,

Nick Yarris 11:52 and so I find out I'm dying from hepatitis C that they did when, uh, I... they infected me of it when they broke my teeth when they beat me. So, I asked to be executed. I said...I studied all of the world's religions. I read over 9,000 books. I did everything in piety my mother asked me to do while I was in prison. (sobs) I don't wanna die like Dale Carter did, with the guards coming to his cell and taunting him, you know, teasing him, and listening to a man scream in agony 'cause the bile in his belly is killing him. So, I wrote to the courts and I asked to be executed. I said, "Fuck it, man." (sniffs) "I wanna die as a man I love, who can respect himself." (sobs) The court intervened and ordered that DNA testing that was gonna be done on the evidence is spilled. In July of 2003, the DNA test come back and they proved me innocent.

Joe Rogan 12:56 How did... So, the- the- the evidence spilled, and they just captured it once it spilled?

Nick Yarris 13:01 (sniffs) It was in a box with all this evidence, and Dr. Edward Blake, who did the OJ Simpson trial DNA, said that there would be challenges to it if he did the DNA in 1999, 1998. In 2003, they had advanced mitochondrial DNA separation so well that he felt confident in his results. So, the federal court got involved and they said, "Look, I don't wanna have this man executed. I want the DNA done." So, they did that, and it was amazing that on the day that I called the lawyers, they revealed the truth to me. (sniffs) I called this lawyer and I'm- I'm like, "What's up?" He goes, "Nick, we got DNA from three separate sources that prove you innocent." And I said, "That's amazing, Mike. I- I- I- I'm- I'm really grateful." He goes, "You know, we used to tell people you're crazy, that we never believed in you. I'm really sorry for that." I'm like, "Man, really? You wanna take a- away my joy now, man?" So, I was really downcast

Nick Yarris 14:02 that day. I called my mother. My brother, Mikey, was having a seizure at her feet, 'cause he was an alcoholic after he fell off a roof, and he died shortly after, so it just went fucking crazy from there. They take me off death row, and they put me in a psychological cell, and they tell me they can't trust me. That no human being who has had done to them what we've done to you cannot be angry.That if we open this door up and we let you out, you're gonna get us. So, we're gonna leave you, until the day they let you out, we're gonna leave you in this cell because we don't trust you, m- not to kill us for what we did to you.

Joe Rogan 14:41 What did they do to you?

Nick Yarris 14:45 They used to have a thing called gladiator day. So, the lieutenant would be off on a Sunday, and the guards who started to come from the Philadelphia area were Black, and they didn't like the guards up in the hillbillies beating on Black prisoners. So, a weird thing happened where this lieutenant came up with the idea, "Well, look, let's let the prisoners get this frustration outta you guys by, you pick out the biggest guy and you pick out this guy." So, one day I'm sitting there minding my own business and they open up my cell and there's four of them with clubs. "You're up." So, I gotta go in the cage and I gotta go and hurt somebody, while they stand outside, and if you don't fight, they're gonna come in and they're gonna beat you worse than you can beat a man or get beaten by one man.

Joe Rogan 15:32 So, they did all this for their entertainment? Were they ever punished for this?

Nick Yarris 15:38 Not until after the riot, when one of them testified against the others for the murder and stuff. I watched 11 people commit suicide. I've been stabbed, strangled, beaten senseless. The guards used to taunt me 'cause I was a- accused of a psychological murder of going out and stalking this poor woman 'cause she looked like my girlfriend, they said. So, I was never treated like a prisoner. I was treated with deference, the worst word I know in the English dif- dictionary. The way I was treated was so harsh that it was cruel beyond cruel. And yet, all I wanted to do was have enough within me to learn to beautifully speak so that on the day that they executed me, I could tell them how much I cared about myself. That was more important to me than living because somehow when you suffer l- like I have suffered, your head cracks open, and you have a hyper-sensitivity to life, so that when you touch other human beings, you never forget the 14 years no one was allowed to touch you. You know what? Fuck this. I ain't crying no more. (sniffs)

Joe Rogan 16:55 It's all right, man. There's nothing wrong with crying. You just listen-

Nick Yarris 16:56 No, I just thought about it.

Joe Rogan 16:58 How could you not?

Nick Yarris 16:58 You know what, Joe? I- I do, because I feel bad for their heart.

Joe Rogan 17:02 You shou- you shouldn't feel bad about crying.

Nick Yarris 17:02 No, because I look in your arms and- and your eyes, and I see the hurt that I'm causing you from doing this.

Joe Rogan 17:08 No, no, no, no, no. Don't worry about that, man.

Nick Yarris 17:09 All right. Well, this is what I know.

Joe Rogan 17:10 Listen, all I'm doing is trying to imagine what your life has been like. Don't you worry about me at all.

Nick Yarris 17:18 (sniffs) I'm harder than life and I'm kinder than love. Secretly, I'm a saint. I never hurt no one. I try my best to be polite every day. And I've had misfortune at every turn. And I'm very sorry that I sit in this chair today after it came about. You see, I believe in good. I believe good is gonna win, Joe. And, uh,

Nick Yarris 17:48 I believe that I had good again, almost three years again, when- years ago, when I met my wife, current wife, Laura. (sniffs) See, I had a woman in my life before that who used me and left me here in Los Angeles, and I ended up homeless on the streets here. I was actually living up in this area on the streets 'cause my good friend Noah lives around here. Him and Jason took good care of me, and-... my bad times, I call it. So I go back to England. I meet this woman. I fall in love. We have a baby and she's born on your birthday. And I start to believe in hope again. I go do a podcast in England with my good friend, Brian from 2Jordy and I start to spread my message again. And I want to get all these young kids to believe in themselves. And then one day, I put the baby down for a nap and I get Laura to lay in my arms because she's sick. And we get up 20 minutes later and the baby's dead. And I'm coming down the steps with the bed- dead baby and I'm get- you know, all fucked up again. And, and then people are so cruel that in the village they started ma- you know, "Maybe the baby was killed by the guy on death row," and all this shit. And I have a, a stalker ex-wife, Karen, who just won't leave me alone, contacts the police and tells them that I put out a tweet that I ... And it only happened because my good friend, Anthony Samondano, he was in the green room, told me the day before my daughter died about a good close friend of his, they lost a baby that day. And so when our baby died, I put out a tweet just saying, you know, "Appreciate the people in your life because they're so precious." And the police came to our house and humiliated me and wanted to know how I could tweet about something because my clock was nine hours off because I was living on the streets of Los Angeles and my time was still on LA time, because Anthony and I are developing a major motion picture about my life. And I told the police, "Are you crazy?" Like, why would I... So I can't even get a break on the death of my daughter, like the... That was the moment that the director of the film, Fear of Thirteen, decided to rip me off for my rights to the film. Um-

Joe Rogan 20:00 He decided to rip you off how?

Nick Yarris 20:02 He owed me £50,000 from doing the film Fear of Thirteen.

Joe Rogan 20:06 He decided to rip you off 'cause he thought you killed your baby?

Nick Yarris 20:08 No. He decided to rip me off then, not pay me my money when I asked him d- I needed money to bury my daughter. So I end up in a shouting match with Arthur Demoulas, the billionaire from Boston. I promised to get on his plane and come kick his ass over the money we're arguing over, 'cause I begged... I... It was crazy. I ended up-

Joe Rogan 20:27 I'm, I'm still confused.

Nick Yarris 20:28 Okay.

Joe Rogan 20:29 So, uh, so what? So your child dies. Is it-

Nick Yarris 20:31 My child dies and everything goes badly.

Joe Rogan 20:33 ... sudden infant death syndrome?

Nick Yarris 20:34 Yeah, SIDS.

Joe Rogan 20:36 SIDS?

Nick Yarris 20:36 And everybody that I counted on to have my back, including Director David Shectman, who promised to pay me for my participation in the film, all then tell me, "Well, no, I'm not paying you." And I'm like, "How can you do this when I need this money to bury my baby?"

Joe Rogan 20:51 Why'd he say he wasn't paying you?

Nick Yarris 20:52 'Cause he said he didn't owe it to me and all this. I said, "What? Are you crazy? You, you have a written contract." So it's the same thing. You know how the entertainment business is. Once they get what they get out of you, that's it. So-

Joe Rogan 21:05 So he just said he wasn't gonna pay you, no matter what the contract said?

Nick Yarris 21:08 Yes. Right. So Arthur Demoulas invested in the film and he owns most of it. So I write to Arthur. I call him. I said, "Arthur, David's not paying me my money. Can you help me?" 'Cause he owned most of the film by that point. So Arthur gets all annoyed at me. I said, "Look, man, my daughter just died." I blew up at him. I told him, "Send me your private jet. I'll come to Boston. We can have a fist fight. You love to fight." You know, all that shit. I lose control. And then Arthur, out of his grace, sends me some money so we could bury the baby. But it went through all this terrible shit. So I started, I said, "Now I'm going back to America." So I leave England. I come over here. I got two daughters with Laura. We're over here now in Oregon. And Anthony, my God, I meet this amazing man only because of Muhammad Ali dying, and now he's gonna help me make a major motion picture about my life. So I get away from all that trauma of losing the baby and being humiliated by people thinking I would do some shit to a little girl, and I go back and I rebuild everything. And then I try to go to Canada, and they won't let me in. That's crazy. So I can't go do my job there. I lose all that-

Joe Rogan 22:17 They won't let you in because you were on death row for 22 years?

Nick Yarris 22:19 Yeah. I s-

Joe Rogan 22:20 Even though you're innocent?

Nick Yarris 22:21 Not only that. I just came from speaking before the United Nations, sitting next to the president and current pr- uh, former presidents of Switzerland, and I have a security clearance from that. I worked in a high profile job in England, uh, going around speaking all over to governments. But Canada holds it against me 'cause I escaped from death row. So I can't enter the Ca- the s- the country of Canada. Robin Sharma tried to have me come up there and speak for him with his conference, and I had to humiliatingly do it from my home via Skype. It's like I'll never stop being punished for what happened. Do you know what I mean? But I, I don't care about that. What really bothered me was that all those things started to befall me and I started losing hope again. So I go, and I even tried recently just to have a normal job and give up everything. I- I, I'm a beautiful speaker in schools and I go around and try and help people with their education, right? So I was trying to do that the last year with a, a friend of mine named Wayne Sharpe from New Zealand. He has a company called MyVerse, and he wants to help children find the correct path. Education is so important. We can't get that going. I can't... I, I decide I'm gonna give up everything and just go get a normal job. But that doesn't work. So I'm sitting there and it's Jamie's birthday and I'm angry. Like, "What the fuck? How could it fall apart again?" So then you contact me after I tweeted and it all starts again, and I'm back to believing that it doesn't matter how I got in this chair or it doesn't matter that the man preceding me has everything and I have nothing. I still believe in good. It's called... You this time. And I told you in that message I sent you, I said, "Fucking hell, Joe, you're gonna change my life doing this, man." You didn't have to do this. You didn't have to be nice to me. But you are. And for that, man, I'm willing to keep going.

Joe Rogan 24:22 I can't... I mean, I don't think anybody can imagine what it's like to spend 22 years on death row for something you didn't do. I want you to go back to the night that you got arrested and tell us, 'cause you, you kind of... There's some tissue right beside you if you want it.

Nick Yarris 24:40 Yeah, I'm good, man.

Joe Rogan 24:40 Um.

Nick Yarris 24:40 I'm done with all that crying. Go ahead, brother.

Joe Rogan 24:45 It's just... The, the night you were... How old were you? You were 20? 21?

Nick Yarris 24:50 21. 20.

Joe Rogan 24:51 21?

Nick Yarris 24:51 20. I turned 21 before they sentenced me to death. I'm 20 years old. I'm a Philly kid, and I'm high on meth, and the music's blasting. I'm driving through Chester, Pennsylvania.

Joe Rogan 25:04 In a stolen car?

Nick Yarris 25:05 Yeah, man. Everything in my life is just chaos. I'm fighting with my two brothers all the time and no one has respect for me. I was ugly. And it's two o'clock in the morning. I just came from a bar and I go through a stop sign, and the next thing I know I saw the lights. I pull over and the beating in my head's out of control. And I'm sitting there gripped with fear. I took a beating in Philly in December 4th of that same year in which they ripped all my teeth up, uh, with a blackjack, so I was really scared, you know? I was like, "Don't move. Don't run. Don't do nothing stupid."

Joe Rogan 25:48 You took a beating from cops earlier?

Nick Yarris 25:50 Yeah. You know, Philly cops put me in my place 'cause I ran my mouth. So, there I am sitting there and the next thing I know, bam, on the window, bam, and he rips open the, the door and, uh, a track from Bad Company was playing really loud. And he... Uh, like I can't hear any or make focus of what he's saying, you know? And then next thing I know, boom, right up outta the car and he's got me on the, the car and, and his name's Benny Wright and he's six foot four and he's got me pressed against the top of the car and he's holding me down and I can't breathe. So I start resisting. I popped his arm off and the adrenaline goes boom. Here comes the beast out of me 'cause at 6'2" in that age, I was crazy tough, man. I was like off the charts. And so I pushed him back, I remember that, and he couldn't believe it. He pulled out his stick and raised it up and I just snatched it out of his hand and chucked it away. I was looking at him like... I was like that zombie guy. And he went furious, man. He pulled out the pistol and I seen it coming and I grabbed his hand and I pushed down and I had my arms outstretched and the gun went boom, down into the ground like that. I looked at him and he put the gun up there and he said, "That motherfucking was..." and he puts me in the car. I'm sitting in the back seat. I'm freaking out, you know? He gets in the car and he's, he's like jumping back and forth in the front seat. Then he waits and he looks at me in the mirror and he grabs the mic and he's going like, "Shots fired! Officer says shots fired!" He looks at me one last time. He goes, "Help! Help! Help!" Like, it's still going on. And like, um... I'm like, "What? Like what's, what's going on?" Dude tells him when they get there, the backup officers get there, he's like, "He tried to kill me! He's got my gun and I got it back from him!" I'm like, "No. This is going south." They dragged me up, take me out of the car, beat me down, take me to jail. Now I'm charged with attempted murder and kidnapping of a police officer. I'm 20 years old and I meet Skip D'Mattio, the public defender, who then tells me I'm facing life imprisonment and that's it, and they're gonna put me in the security wing because my bail's gonna be so high. I looked at him, I said, "What do you mean, man? I was just driving home. I'm in a stolen car." Like... He said, "No, man. You ain't never going home." So I broke down and I went through detox with no t- no help, you know? So three days I'm in a cell with nothing but this newspaper and it's the headline on the newspaper, "Mrs. Craig's Murder" and it starts taunting me, man. Taunting me, it's taunting me. Somehow in my head I came up with this crazy mantra, "If I knew something about something that big, I bet they'd let me go about this lie." I didn't try to kill nobody. I was sitting on my bed and the guard was walking by and he goes, "What's wrong with you?" And I started telling him what was going through my head, the whole story, and that was it, Joe. Oh my god. He ran down the block, he went to the sergeant's office, they got me to the warden. The warden's now been told, so-

Joe Rogan 28:55 So when you say you were telling them what's going on in your head, so in your head-

Nick Yarris 28:57 I repeated it. Oh my god.

Joe Rogan 28:59 ... you had, you had a plan...

Nick Yarris 29:01 To tell him a story.

Joe Rogan 29:02 ... to tell him a lie.

Nick Yarris 29:04 And when that officer responded because he heard the story, I didn't have any idea what the impact of my words were. I was so stupid. Oh my-

Joe Rogan 29:14 Well, you're also going through detox.

Nick Yarris 29:16 Yeah. And so they take me to the warden's office and he starts praising me. They take me outta solitary confinement-

Joe Rogan 29:21 Praising you how?

Nick Yarris 29:22 Telling me I'm doing a great job as-

Joe Rogan 29:24 'cause what, what did you tell him?

Nick Yarris 29:25 I told him that, uh, a man that, uh, I knew in the area had told me he had done the crime and that if they let me out, I would tell them all about it and he told me I was helping the community, they were taking me outta solitary confinement and all that. They told me that, uh, they spoke to Officer Wright and he was gonna retract his charges and only charge me with resisting arrest and they were gonna drop the rest of the charges and everything was gonna be good. And then three days later they came back and said, "Dude, you lied. And the only reason you lied is because you want to tell us that you did this." They put me in a room and start doing all this shit to me.

Joe Rogan 30:02 So how'd they find out that you lied?

Nick Yarris 30:03 The dude that I made the story up, uh, was no longer a drug addict and he had an alibi.

Joe Rogan 30:10 So you just tried to pin the story-

Nick Yarris 30:12 On-

Joe Rogan 30:12 ... on some other drug addict?

Nick Yarris 30:14 The dude who robbed me, he rolled me up in a rug and tried to kill me with a .357 Magnum, so I figured... I heard the story that he was dead and figure, uh, they won't even find him anyway, you know?But a 20-year-old doesn't have any concept of, you know, complex stuff like this.

Joe Rogan 30:30 Especially in the '80s, right?

Nick Yarris 30:32 Dude, they came right back to me, and they had me in a Delaware County District Attorney's office. And this Detective Martin told me, in no certain terms, I was gonna tell him why I killed that woman. I wasn't leaving that room. So for 13 hours, they tortured me, man. Started bringing up my childhood and all that shit. I told them, man, "I just wanted to blow up my whole world." I, like ... and they said, "Oh, that's good." So, this is what my confession consists of, um, "I didn't kill anyone. I never meant to kill anyone." "That's good, Nick. That's good. You never meant to kill her." "What are you talking about?" So, I went to trial, and I was given a three-day trial for the murder of Mrs. Craig, after the jury found me not guilty of all my original charges. So, I was really frustrated that a jury heard the testimony of Officer Wright. He would later be fired from the force, uh, being caught up in a drug gang in Chester. He was dirty, uh, but they didn't know it at the time. But a jury found me not guilty. That prosecutor went mental when that happened, and he decided to seek the death penalty. So, a month after I was found guilty- not guilty of all my original charges that I made the stupid story up, I ... they gave me a three-day murder trial that, in essence, was a joke. And what they did was they preyed upon the poor jury and showed them pictures of the victim and stuff like that, man. And they had a inmate who burglarized the prosecutor's home and was facing 20 years come into court and say I confessed to him. That was it.

Joe Rogan 32:08 So, the inmate said that you confessed to him?

Nick Yarris 32:11 Charles Catalino.

Joe Rogan 32:12 So, they got a guy to do that?

Nick Yarris 32:14 Yep. So, I'm sitting there, and they dropped a bomb on me, and I know it's coming. The jury was so crass that they went out to the Wagon Wheel Restaurant and put their dessert order on hold while they found me guilty, and then during the fe- sentencing phase, they had their dessert. I was 20 years old, man. I'm like, "This isn't real, man. Like, I never killed or raped this woman. How can this happen?" You know? And then, the only mistake I truly think I made was that I told the judge to go to hell when he sentenced me to death, because he couldn't look me in the face.

Joe Rogan 32:50 Why do you think that's a mistake?

Nick Yarris 32:52 'Cause he decided to send me to Huntington Prison, the hardest prison in America at that time.

Joe Rogan 32:56 And what was he gonna do before that?

Nick Yarris 32:58 I don't know, but he made sure I went to the place that they broke you. See, Huntington was designed as the prison if you raped another inmate, they sent you there. It was the first SHU program in America. It was the first real-

Joe Rogan 33:09 SHU? What is SHU program?

Nick Yarris 33:10 A special housing unit, or security housing unit, where s- level five supermax, you know, like Pelican Bay. And, uh, your punishment was that you weren't allowed to speak in your cell. And if you got caught speaking in your cell, they came in with a nurse, and after they beat you down, she jabs you in the ass with Thorazine, and they knocked you out for a week and you lost your mind. So, it was horrible. Like, I told you, the first two years of my sentence, every day I kept my mouth shut. I didn't care what was done around me or not, you weren't allowed to say a goddamn word. And they meant it, man.

Joe Rogan 33:48 You're not allowed to talk to other inmates?

Nick Yarris 33:50 Nothing. I dare you to sing Happy Birthday to yourself. Like, I didn't. I paid for that one. (swallows) They fucked me up, Joe. But I don't care about that. Look, I realized I was in a race. I had to kill off the person that I was. The person that I initially was upon entering prison was a deceitful, lying coward with no fortitude because no self-respect resided within me. And in utter humbleness, I took everything that they did to me, and I paid for every window I broke, every thing I stole, every lie I told, and then I started to love myself. I figured, I ain't getting nothing out of this but misery, so I'm going out like the dude ... I'm gonna stand up and I'm gonna speak beautifully on the day they execute me. I'ma walk to that walk, man. I'ma do this. I didn't kill that woman, but I damn sure ain't no coward. I'm gonna find out everything I can about life, and then I'ma face my death. I'ma do it with ǀadavi, man. Like, I had this beautiful, beautiful speech ready for them too. I was gonna lay it out and just be at peace, because I realized there was nothing else to do. I couldn't fight, I couldn't argue, it didn't matter because God's in control of my life, and I really believed that I had a choice. Either be a bitter pill and get sucked dry by all the misery around me, or get my shit right and start loving myself. So, I taught myself how to speak and overcome neur- this, uh, aphasia that affected me my whole life. And I found out that I was giving myself neuroplasticity healing, and I became very graceful and calm in prison. I was so serene and so powerful.

Joe Rogan 35:53 How'd you find out you were giving yourself neuroplasticity healing?

Nick Yarris 35:56 I found that out from Robin Sharma. Robin Sharma is the foremost authority on speaking about neuroplasticity healing. And when he found about what I speak about, he said I am the living embodiment of his teachings. That through grace and dignity and kindness, I've developed my own charisma that carries me with confidence. And that is the description of what he teaches professionals, beginners, everyone.

Joe Rogan 36:22 Could you explain neuroplasticity for people who don't know what that is?

Nick Yarris 36:24 Neuroplasticity is a reward system within your brain, wherein your interactions, especially with other human beings, heals you.So, people who suffer from PTSD, people who have had trauma in their lives can actually heal themselves by being meticulously polite. And I began all of this when I was released. My mother sat me down, and she said, "Nicky, listen to me. For you to get out of prison and not be a nice man is a waste of everyone's time. Every prayer, every time someone called me the mother of a monster, every time a woman spit in my face, everything that I went through is a waste of time for you not to be a nice man. So, I want you to promise me one thing. Every day, I want you to go out and say, 'Yes, ma'am,' 'Yes, sir,' and, 'Thank you.' Because I want you to show respect for who you are in that way. They hurt this family badly. It's the only thing I ask." I didn't notice she handed me the tool to healing, because neuroplasticity is the self-contrived act of rewarding yourself for being a nice person. And my gift over the last 14 years is that I made myself so amazingly pliable and gifted at helping others find the good within them. That's the reason I'm truly here today. The thing that I've been able to accomplish through my writing and through my efforts, is to show people that you take things personally in life, you be then a fool. Because what you've done is you've taken all the hurts and you've made them the justified reason why you have to be a asshole to somebody. Whereas you keep forgetting that you've been given a break over and over just to be here, man. Dude, I've been shot, stabbed, strangled, run over by a car, hung myself in prison, two drug overdoses, and I had a cannibal trying to murder me for two solid years. I know that I could fall at any moment from my own hand. But God blessed me. I believe so much in my purpose in life that I won't kill myself. I won't give up, and it's only because I've been tested that I know that it has to be for a reason. I had dreams about all this. While I was in death row, I had the most amazing, intense dreams because of my suffering, and they play out now. So, what happened? Did I manage to touch something we're all chasing or am I in a delusional world? Because I-

Joe Rogan 39:08 What do you mean? What do you mean by that?

Nick Yarris 39:09 I told people last Ju- last year, I told, uh, everybody on Facebook something was gonna- bad was gonna happen, and it did when my daughter broke her elbow. So, I told everybody before it happened. Two years ago, I told my wife, Laura, I was coming back here to meet Anthony Sammaldani and go on the Good News Network w- and do a thing with Maymay Ali, who's a good friend of mine. And I told him how, uh, things would happen, and sure enough, every time, it's played out. I-

Joe Rogan 39:43 Why did you think something was gonna- bad was gonna happen? When you said something bad was gonna happen and your daughter broke her arm.

Nick Yarris 39:48 Dude, I'm in a meeting with a guy named Kevin and John, and I look at them and I say, "I have to g-" And I'm on Melrose Boulevard, my daughter's playing in the, uh, the playground a few blocks away, and I'm in this meeting with these men about m- my film. I stand up at the table and I say to them, "I have to go right now." I run outside and I ask my wife, Laura, is she okay? My daughter fell and broke her elbow and had to have six pins put into it in Cedars-Sinai. We have a $63,000 bill that it has stuck us with. But I knew it was gonna happen before it did, and I even told people it was gonna happen. How can I have that touch?

Joe Rogan 40:29 Did you know that was gonna happen, specifically?

Nick Yarris 40:31 I saw the event, but not in real time so I could make sense of it. But I saw the greenery at the park when we pulled up. It was the same. And I had the flash last night when I met Stedman Graham. I had all these moments. A woman last night pinned a thing on my collar and she looked just like my mother, and I had this dream. Because my mom died on September 9th, and 10 years ago, I was actually on a flight September 11th for her funeral. And it's all crazy how I saw all of these things in my dreams on death row and they play out. And it keeps happening with witnesses to my life that are recognizing it with me, so I can't make it up. S- do you know what I mean? I wish my friend Jason was here. He's- he's been able to help me just put this in context, and I'm doing this badly, but I just think that somehow I went through an experience so intense that it has truly cracked open something that has given me a hyper-sensitivity to things. I think that it has allowed me truly to be humble enough to really give my life for a purpose and not be ego-driven, like, I- I have nothing at this moment while we sit here, but I am so proud of the fact that that doesn't ever stop me from believing in good. And you could beat me all day, you could put me in a cage, you could do whatever you want to me, but it's up to me to then make it misery. I'm choosing not to, man. I don't care how much I gotta struggle from this point on or what graces I'm granted, I just want one thing to stay true in my life, that I don't lose who I am. I fought so hard to be this man through a childhood of- of feeling so inadequate 'cause another man raped me, to the feelings that I was so low of being cast aside as a condemned human being, to then rise up and go and speak before governments to the point that Kofi Annan told me that I was one of the finest speakers in the world.... to then go and follow that and stand at the base of the Colosseum where human beings were put to death for entertainment and blow 20,000 people away and have it flawlessly done. And to recognize that I had it all within me to do because of one thing, that neuroplasticity gave me charisma, the kind of charisma you exude. So I don't know where it is that you hit that point where you decided to really believe in yourself, but like you said, you didn't listen to that shit that people were telling you. And once you did that, you started to contrive all this beautiful charisma 'cause I didn't even watch the fight Saturday when you were talking. I listened to you and I thought, "He's so flawless. It's not even thought of." But people would never grant you that. You had to do something in your heart, something within you made you believe in this guy, man.

Joe Rogan 43:25 Listen, I, I've not had much resistance at all. I'm gonna be honest with you. Like, what you're, what you're saying about me is very kind. I really appreciate it, but really haven't had much resistance.

Nick Yarris 43:36 Yeah, but what it is about you that makes you believe in yourself, yo? What happened? Where'd you hit that point?

Joe Rogan 43:43 Well, I'm pretty sure it came from martial arts, from martial arts competition when I was very young. Pretty sure from the time I was-

Nick Yarris 43:51 The first beating or the first win?

Joe Rogan 43:52 N- neither. Neither. Just, um, just how difficult it was, just, um, um, doing it from 15 to, uh, uh... Pff, before I was 22, I stopped, somewhere around 22. But it was just the fact that it was so difficult, that it, uh, it taught me hard work, taught me focus. And, and, uh, I didn't have anything for that. Before that, I thought I was a loser. Like, I really thought I was a loser. I don't know my father. Um, my stepdad's a very nice guy, but there's something about growing up without a father, uh, that is still alive that doesn't talk to you and, you know, my mom worked all day, my stepdad worked all day. There was no one around. You know, I just, uh... And we moved a lot. I didn't have any friends. So I just, I just, um, I never felt like I was worthwhile, you know?

Nick Yarris 44:48 That's what I mean.

Joe Rogan 44:49 It wasn't anything like what you experienced.

Nick Yarris 44:51 No.

Joe Rogan 44:51 N- nothing-

Nick Yarris 44:51 But it was enough within you that it was the point.

Joe Rogan 44:56 Well, I needed to prove myself. That's what it-

Nick Yarris 44:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:58 ... w- I need... I, I wanted to show... I, I... There was something inside me that I needed to show that I wasn't useless. And the only way I could show that I wasn't useless was by being good at things. And initially, it was art, and then after art, it became martial arts. And the martial arts thing was more important than art because the martial arts tested me. Like, art was beautiful because I could draw things and people would love them, and then it made me feel good that people liked my work. But it was... There was a big difference between that and the martial arts. The martial arts was so difficult to do and to compete at a, you know, a national level. It was, um... Every time I did it, I was terrified. But after it was over, I felt better about myself, and I understood that I could actually be good at things. So it was the first thing that I ever did that gave me a, a feeling of, of value.

Nick Yarris 45:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:45 So I went from being a loser to being an extreme winner.

Nick Yarris 45:50 That's brilliant. N-

Joe Rogan 45:51 But it was just... But it was, but you-

Nick Yarris 45:52 But that is your point though.

Joe Rogan 45:53 But you're saying that people, like, held me back, and, you know, s- that's not really the case. It wasn't... You know, I mean, um, I'm sure people judged me one way or another because of Fear Factor or some of the other things. But the thing about going through the martial arts competition and everything when I was young, I don't, I don't give a fuck how other people view me. I don't. I just do what I like. I do what-

Nick Yarris 46:16 I-

Joe Rogan 46:16 ... I like and I try to be nice.

Nick Yarris 46:17 But that's where your charisma comes from. And where you got that from is still yours, man. I admire that. A lot of people don't have the confidence to do that, to shut off that noise, that thing that makes us all react to everyone else's opinion.

Joe Rogan 46:32 Well, I react to it. I mean, I, I most certainly feel it, but I just don't, I don't, I don't let it change the way I, I go through life. And, uh, I think, because of the lessons that I've learned, I try to express that as much as possible for people that haven't gone through those same lessons so I can, I can, I can express that information and maybe people can absorb some of it without having to go through what I went through. I think what you went through is infinitely more difficult, more trying.

Nick Yarris 47:06 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 47:06 And I think that your message and your story can show people that in the worst possible scenario, the beginning of your life as a man, you're wrongfully committed to life in prison. You are gonna s- spend the rest of your life until they execute you on death row. And all the horrors that you've gone through, to come out of that, and to come out of that with a purpose of being a nice person and learning how to speak and learning how to speak clearly and confidently. Like, there's a lesson in that that's at a... I mean, I mean, this is almost like at a, at a religious level. I mean, you talk about someone who's created a diamond from pressure. I mean, that's what you've done. What you've done is you've, you've figured out a way to, despite all this raging hurricane of emotion that goes through your mind that's causes you to cry when you think about these things, you can express yourself in a very clear way that lets people at just... at least peer through the window into what you've experienced in your life. And it'll... It, it can give people a perspective that they're just... It's very, very rare that someone gets fucked over in life as bad as you did. Very, very rare. And it's even more rare to come through at the end with a sense of purpose.

Nick Yarris 48:37 Every day of my life, someone writes me and tells me they didn't kill themselves today. Did you know that?... every day, man. That is, stock drugs. There's a young man living in my house named Zach Kers. He's, uh, a really good friend of mine. He really changed his whole life since meeting me. Uh, even my close friends have told me that I've changed their life. And I appreciate it because I recognize, um, a lot of times it's the good within them that's resonating. And I'm proud of the fact that I have sat and listened to the words I kinda deserve for what I've tried. And I- I'm gonna learn in the future to accept the graces that you just did for me, because in the past I always tried to, as you see, diminish it. I have worked very hard, Joe. I have worked very hard to c- craft, um, my work into writing. And like your drawings, I was so proud of having a number one bestseller in, uh, my first book. And I was so proud of using my talent as a writer to then articulate what it's like to lose a baby and my journey through her eyes, or to use, uh, this last effort in Monsters and Madmen to- to s- tell people it's okay to have a bigger secret than the one that people know you by and still live with it. And then, when it's right, you can share it. Or I've made a point that I'm done writing because I've accomplished all my work as a writer, and now I wanna do one thing well. I wanna help young students around the world take themselves seriously with their education. I did over 500 of them in schools all over England and Europe and stuff. I loved it, man. I got all these young lads and la- lasses to come back to me and show me degrees that they got when I showed them how important their education was. And I- I'm th- I really thrive in that environment because I think that's where everything still is for me. Somehow, like I'm that kid, you know, who won't let go of needing to still chase the good in my life. And I know there's bad things in the woods, and I know there's brilliant things in the woods. But I'm still willing to walk that path and find something meaningful, and that's what I- I came here to really say, is that I wanna make an impact with my words, but not overdo it. So, I don't wanna do, uh, any other podcast after this one, except for my friend Brian's, but I wanna do the meaningful thing without it having to be attached to the social media draw that has, uh, hurt my life so much.

Joe Rogan 51:24 Social media draw that has hurt your life? How has it hurt your life?

Nick Yarris 51:27 Well, when my daughter broke her arm and we put up a GoFundMe page, I was viciously attacked because people expect me to have funds, but they don't know, you know? Things are-

Joe Rogan 51:36 They expect you to have funds because of the movie and the book?

Nick Yarris 51:38 Yeah. And I'm not. I have nothing. I borrowed money, um, to get here. Like, people don't know that. I'm wearing a shirt from my friend because he funded me to be here, you know, so I'd have food while I was here. It's like that real, you know? So, people don't want me to not succeed, like I hurt their image of me if I don't have wealth in addition to being this person before then.

Joe Rogan 52:02 Well, I just think people just... th- they don't understand. You know, they... people see someone else's life and they like to assume the worst and they like to criticize you whenever they have an opportunity, so if they see any vulnerability, they- they attack.

Nick Yarris 52:16 Pounce, yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 52:17 You know, what you've gone through is the opposite of what most people go through. People have difficult times in their life, but more than difficult times, you know what they have? They have long periods where they don't have anything happen, where life is boring and life is just a dull gray, and life is just work, and coming home from work, and the trials and tribulations of that, and traffic, and the kind of insane experiences that you had, of being wrongly convicted and spending 22 years confined in a cage, forced to fight because of vicious psychopath guards. That, those kind of experiences are the experiences that allowed you to come out of it this very kind, very open-minded person who's trying to better yourself and wants to see the best in other people. The people that go through their life in this dull state of jealousy, and bitterness, and resentment, and just constantly focused on themselves, this self obsessive culture that we have. And one of the things about social media that's most fucked up is you're looking at all these other people's lives, and shitting on them, and comparing yourself to them, and finding faults in them, and attacking them in the comment section, and attacking what they're... And the people that are doing that, they're all doing that because they're in- they're in agony. They're in a different kinda agony than you, but it's an agony of nothing.

Nick Yarris 53:56 I know. And I looked at it and I thought, "I- I try to craft a beautiful message on the social medias so that I don't get caught up in the arguments," and I always try to show the good in the world. And that's why I love, like, the Good News Network. I'll try and deliberately stay away from things that poison my mind 'cause I don't want to contribute.

Joe Rogan 54:14 Yeah.

Nick Yarris 54:15 I don't wanna get caught up in the Trump era argument or the-

Joe Rogan 54:17 Right.

Nick Yarris 54:18 ... previous argument or the new argument. I wanna post meaningful messages of good because that's my overall message. So I thought recently, maybe I can contrive three beautiful messages for Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, and I could leave out this wonderful message, and then I can go about my business of going back into schools and talking to students because it gets too chaotic. Uh, um, in addition to all the lovely, uh, messages of the, uh, wonderful human beings that listen to me speak or they saw the film Fear of Thirteen, read one of my books, there's also a lot of women out there, man, and they've been harassing me and bothering me, and it's put a lot of conflict in my life, and I don't want that.

Joe Rogan 55:01 Harassing you and bothering you how?

Nick Yarris 55:02 A lot of women fall in love with me because of the film.... the film made me look very attractive.

Joe Rogan 55:07 Yeah, what is it about women and men that are on death row, too? There's something-

Nick Yarris 55:10 That one, too. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:11 Yeah.

Nick Yarris 55:11 I know, so th- eh, yeah, they'll contact me and tell me about their inmate. I'm not an inmate. I'm not a death row prisoner, but I was on-

Joe Rogan 55:17 But what is... that-

Nick Yarris 55:18 ... death row.

Joe Rogan 55:18 That is a strange obsession that some-

Nick Yarris 55:20 It goes-

Joe Rogan 55:20 ... women have.

Nick Yarris 55:21 Yeah. And it goes to a psychological feature of women, uh, who can fix things with their love.

Joe Rogan 55:27 Mm.

Nick Yarris 55:28 So they want me to deceive my wife to be with them, but not be deceitful. They want me to ignore all the social chaos I could cause to go and leave a family to be with them, but they still want to harass me. And it was so bad recently, even on my anniversary, I had to cut off people who were bothering me. I have a, a s- an active stalker in my life. Uh, it's all kinda crazy. Uh, I've gone through a lot of experiences where the social media's really tested me, so I thought I'm gonna try and be like the dude. All right, so they're gonna execute-

Joe Rogan 55:58 Well, you say... you- you said that twice, "the dude."

Nick Yarris 55:59 Yeah. The dude is the guy that knows... all right, so this is my last scene.

Joe Rogan 56:03 You don't mean, like, from The Big Lebowski?

Nick Yarris 56:05 Kinda like the dude, man, like, the dude.

Joe Rogan 56:08 (laughs)

Nick Yarris 56:08 So, seriously, Jeff Bridges, one of-

Joe Rogan 56:10 Right.

Nick Yarris 56:10 ... my heroes.

Joe Rogan 56:11 Love that guy.

Nick Yarris 56:11 Hey, what a moment, you know, Chris Pine, Jeff Bridges, Ben Foster being interviewed about Hell In High Water, and they ask Chris Pine, "What do you watch?" And he goes, "Oh my God, I gotta tell you about Fear of 13. I gotta tell you about Nick Yarris. Man, this dude is the shit." You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 56:26 Wow.

Nick Yarris 56:26 And my phone goes... yeah. I had dinner with him. He's a really, really cool dude, man.

Joe Rogan 56:31 Wow.

Nick Yarris 56:32 You need to have Chris on. He's a really cool dude.

Joe Rogan 56:34 That sounds amazing.

Nick Yarris 56:34 He's really introspective and he's deep. Like, he's a real good conversationalist. All right, so-

Joe Rogan 56:40 Chris Pine, who do I... where... which... what else has he been in?

Nick Yarris 56:43 Oh, he's been as-

Joe Rogan 56:43 Pull the... pull his image up.

Nick Yarris 56:44 Oh, dude, he just did the-

Joe Rogan 56:45 I know who he is, but I'm just-

Nick Yarris 56:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:46 ... blanking on him right now.

Nick Yarris 56:47 Oh, he just did the one with Oprah, too, and he did the one before that with the, the, um- Star- ... Star Trek. He's that-

Joe Rogan 56:53 Well, let me... oh, that guy.

Nick Yarris 56:54 Yeah, Chris, man.

Joe Rogan 56:55 He was in Wonder Woman, too.

Nick Yarris 56:56 Yeah, yeah. He's just-

Joe Rogan 56:57 Yeah, that guy's great.

Nick Yarris 56:58 Oh, I'm telling you, man, what a... and he, hey, to invite me to dinner and hang out with him, and even Harvey Har- Weinstein pops in for a minute.

Joe Rogan 57:05 Holler.

Nick Yarris 57:06 Uh.

Joe Rogan 57:06 (laughs)

Nick Yarris 57:07 I'm like, "No." And he's like, "Harvey, you just produced that documentary about the dude that was in jail."

Joe Rogan 57:11 So this is before everything hit the fan with him?

Nick Yarris 57:13 Yeah, this is before things went tits up. (blows raspberry) I know.

Joe Rogan 57:16 Yeah.

Nick Yarris 57:17 No, I had this real great blessing. So Alejandro Monteverde, uh, who did The Little Boy with, uh, Kevin James, he has an amazing life story himself. I mean, his f- his family was abducted by kidnappers and executed. This is real drama.

Joe Rogan 57:33 Oh.

Nick Yarris 57:33 The day I meet this man, I'm at a red carpet event in LA and he goes home and watches Fear of 13, and he comes back. And he tells me, "I'm gonna make your movie. I'm gonna help you. Don't know how, but God told me there are certain movies I have to make." And he's making one right now with Tim Ballard from the CIA about, um, rescuing children from the sex trades and stuff. So he's doing really serious work, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 57:57 So he wants to make a feature film.

Nick Yarris 57:59 So they're gonna make a feature film about me called Conviction right now. It might be changed, but I got the script and it's fucking hard, man, to read. But we have all these A-list actors, and my dream, of course, is Chris Pine, 'cause I think he's one of the best, right? But I have no say. But I get this amazing chance to come out here and meet all these people for the film being made, and I realize it's all meant to be, man, like all this crazy stuff. So maybe if I craft my message right, I can step back and let people appreciate the message I had without distorting it, 'cause I don't wanna ruin it. I don't wanna go too far and end up making a fool of myself when I thought the right thing to do was teach people about neuroplasticity and how to make yourself a really badass outside the ring by being a kind man, and how to really make yourself a really nice person to the family and loved ones by having the self-respect about yourself to be patient in life, and things like that, you know? And don't ruin it. So that's what I-

Joe Rogan 58:58 You- you keep saying don't ruin it. You know, when you're talking about social media, I think one thing to take into consideration is when you do something like a GoFundMe or any- anytime there's anything controversial, those are magnets for hate. And you might think that everyone hates you, but what you're dealing with is a very small amount of people from a very large amount of people.

Nick Yarris 59:20 I know that, sir.

Joe Rogan 59:21 So if you're thinking about the whole planet, right, all the English-speaking people, you're dealing with hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that could act-

Nick Yarris 59:27 I believe so much in what you said.

Joe Rogan 59:29 Mm-hmm.

Nick Yarris 59:29 That's why I'm here now, because on my website, nickyarris.org, we organize so today's listeners can go there and download copies of my book. I can get out of destitute times. I can get my life together. We did everything we could knowing that this podcast is reaching a million people. So you're right. I do-

Joe Rogan 59:46 But I mean- I mean, even, like, your social media. What I mean is just the- the thing is to not get caught up in the numbers that come at you that are negative, because it's just a sheer matter of volume, all right? If you're reaching people through the internet, you're reaching who knows how many human beings. I think one out of 100 is gonna be the type of person that wants to send a hateful message because it's easy, because they don't have to look you in the eyes when they do it. They don't have to feel any social consequences. They don't have to feel your pain when they insult you or- or, you know, say awful things about you or your family. They're doing it because they wanna affect you because they're hurting, and they're hurting for a very different reason than the way you're hurting. But this is what's wrong with social media, is 'cause human beings are not meant to communicate that way. We lose our humanity in this very shallow form of interaction, because-

Nick Yarris 1:00:42 Yes, sir.

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 ... all those parts... what's- what's important about people is looking them in the eyes, talking to them, hugging them, shaking their hand, communicating honestly. And anytime you- you're missing any of those pieces, when you communicate dishonestly, when you don't wanna shake someone's hand, when you don't wanna look them in the eye, when you don't wanna inter- inter- interact with them, when you don't care about them as a person, all those things leave you feeling like shit.

Nick Yarris 1:01:07 Amen.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 All those things.

Nick Yarris 1:01:08 That's true. You're right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 Well, the- the social media is the worst form of it 'cause it's just text. You have to interpret it yourself. You don't know what the fuck is going on in their life. You don't know who they are, but you read that text and you absorb it personally.You absorb it personally and you take it in the worst possible form, and you, you feel that critique in your chest. You feel it. You feel it in your head.

Nick Yarris 1:01:31 I know. I guess I got caught up in this notion that I could just go be a normal guy and have a normal job and people would leave me alone.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 Well, they would if you weren't on social media.

Nick Yarris 1:01:43 And I, I, I've already entered that form, so I'm just-

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 Well, you don't have to stay in that form, but-

Nick Yarris 1:01:48 That's true.

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 ... but here's the thing. Even if you do use that form, you know what you can do? You just don't interact. You post-

Nick Yarris 1:01:54 That's what I was doing.

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 That's the thing.

Nick Yarris 1:01:55 That's what I said I was gonna do.

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 It's, it's hard for people to understand that are on the outside. They're like, "Well, you asshole. I love you. I want you to interact with me because I love you, you know, and I want you to recognize that I'm recognizing you." And I appreciate that from people, but they have to understand the volume of people that someone like you is dealing with.

Nick Yarris 1:02:12 That's what I try to convey. And I try very sincerely never to be ignorant to people. And, you know, it's, it's fucking mind-blowing, Joe, 'cause I had my mind made up and now I've realized that I do. And it all goes back to a conversation with my boy Jason Daley. Me and him were driving along the 405 one day and the film Fur- Fear of 13's about to come out. And I told him I didn't want it to come out. And he said, "You don't own that film. Every kid that's ever had a shitty childhood owns that film. Everybody who's got a broken marriage or a shitty life or is really struggling owns that film. If you fuck this up, I'll never be your friend again, man." And he was right. I don't own The Fear of 13 and I don't own really anything of it, but its message is so beautiful. I did what I could to tell my story because we're all living our life as an experience but we can only convey it as a memory. And I did beautifully for myself and I'm so proud of the effort I made. I don't care that the director robbed me, I'll make my way. I don't care what I went through to this moment because I truly appreciate the person who wrote me last night and said, "Two weeks ago, I was released from a mental hospital after trying to kill myself and my mom sat me down and made me watch a film. And, and now, in the last two weeks, I've been going to therapy and I'm getting my shit together." I don't own the film, Joe, and I don't own my message. I guess my message is taken on by the people who love me, or not.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 Well-

Nick Yarris 1:03:41 And you're right, I'm not gonna be bothered by the negatives. I had a terrible experience with a stalker for 12 years who won't leave me alone and it cost me my daughter and a divorce. There's all kind of crazy stuff. So, it was really affecting me and my current wife and I didn't like it. But I think I'm gonna actually beat it, dude, and just hang around for a little bit longer and make you proud of me for what I do from here on.

Joe Rogan 1:04:02 Well, don't worry about me, man.

Nick Yarris 1:04:04 No. Everyone that I love-

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Yeah.

Nick Yarris 1:04:06 ... is gonna always be on that list, man. I've really just-

Joe Rogan 1:04:09 Well, if that's what you use for motivation-

Nick Yarris 1:04:11 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 ... that's, that's great and there's nothing wrong with that. Um, but I think that what you can do and what you are doing is show that you can, you can overcome things. You can overcome horrible things. Some of the most horrible experiences a person could ever face, you can overcome them, and you have. And those messages, they give people inspiration. And inspiration is one of the greatest things you can give a person.

Nick Yarris 1:04:37 I know that, man.

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 Or inspire-

Nick Yarris 1:04:39 You inspired me today.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 S-

Nick Yarris 1:04:39 I told you since this... m- man, ever since we started communicating, I told you, I mean this. I even went out of my way today to Matt. Matt rang me, your producer, and I wanted to make a point right away. I said, "Dude, I know a lot of people climb right past you to go to Joe, but I wanted to tell you, thank you for helping me and my family today. Thank you for helping organize." I made sure that Jamie got my love when I came in the room because he organized my trip and it was so cool how he got me in the right airport and everything right. Because I know that is so important to that man because a lot of people won't make that effort, Joe. And I don't wanna be that guy that misses my chance. So I'm gonna say thank you and yes, ma'am and yes, sir to everyone like my mom asked me. And make sure never to overlook people because that's truly my message. My kindness makes me able to come back. My good heart is made better by the fact that I wanna believe in good. And it's crazy how it's come back to reward me in so many ways. Like, do you remember when Muhammad Ali died?

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 Yeah.

Nick Yarris 1:05:40 Yeah. Well, I didn't know Anthony Samondani. I didn't know his story. But one day, I get contacted by a man who's seen The Fear of 13 and I learned that he went to university out here and he became a lawyer 'cause of a promise to his mother to be a good person. He goes to the mosque every Friday and becomes f- close friends with Muhammad and they go to dinner every night with May May on Fridays, you know, and they become real close. And he tells me this story how at a young age, Muhammad looks him in the face and says, "You're going to be one of the men that carries my message in life." And he's like, "I'm 22. What could I possibly have to offer anyone?" So he goes through this experience and on the day that Muhammad Ali had approval from the government patent office for this bracelet that says, "Within good there is God," he called me in England where I was at the time and he says, "I have a question for you. I saw your film and I learned a lot about you since then. Why aren't you bitter, man? Why are you still willing to believe?" And I said, "My mother never prayed for anything but good. She always told me the only good there was was in go- was within God." He said, "Are you kidding me? Hold on." And he starts sending me this stuff. I didn't know that earlier that day, Muhammad Ali's bracelet would be, you know, approved by the paten- I didn't know any of that. But it was those words. You see what I mean about the synchronicity of all this craziness in my life? The next thing you know, I'm in Los Angeles, I'm meeting Alejandro. He wants to help me make the movie. I meet all these wonderful people like Adam Callinan from Bottle Keeper. He's such a sweet guy. They came up with this company on the beach a couple years ago and now it's doing very well for keeping drinks cold. And he's done wonders for me and my wife. This man is such a lovely guy that I wouldn't be in this chair without him or Anthony or any of these people, right? And then Anthony sets up May May Ali.... and he's- he brings me out and we have a podcast, and he doesn't tell her a word about me beforehand. Now, what's crazy was, I'm doing this interview right behind where I used to sleep on the street, and I didn't... I kept all that quiet. I did some of my best work when I was homeless. And I do this thing, and May May looks at me and says, "No disrespect to my father, Muhammad Ali, but you're one of the most influential men I ever met in my life, and within five minutes of meeting you, I'm already changing things about my life." I decided right then, okay, then I have to own that, man. I have to live it for her, man. Like, I can never go back. I can't go back and be, uh, an average, retarded, mindless, angry person. I can't be caught up in the drama of everyday, stupid shit. Like, I got to owe it to that girl, you know? And I have, ever since I met her. She's one of the nicest people in my life, man. I have some amazing friends, Joe. I really mean it, man. I... And there's so many connections to your life, you wouldn't even know. Like, dude, when people found out I was coming to meet you, every one of them said the same, pretty much the same thing, "Joe's such a nice dude. He's so intelligent. I love listening to him." I work with educators on a platform called Nepris. They love your STEM podcast. I know people up in Waterbury, Connecticut, who teach out of the self-defense class called Practical Self-Defense. They're, right now, going crazy 'cause, you know, they know Joe- Jesse, um, Kozakowski's on the first Bellator card, you know, and they... These guys are really crazy, like Alex Cor- Cortez, and all them. They're, they're like, "Joe is so next level." I'm saying, "So are you." It's like, Joe's showing you to believe in yourself 'cause he didn't get there because he had, like, been handed this shit. Like, I remember reading stories about you going to the MMA and just doing it so you could have drink money, man. Like, to get free tickets and go in, right?

Joe Rogan 1:09:42 Yeah.

Nick Yarris 1:09:43 That's true, ain't it?

Joe Rogan 1:09:44 Yeah, when I first started working for the UFC, I did the first 15-

Nick Yarris 1:09:47 Not for money, right?

Joe Rogan 1:09:48 I did the first 15 shows for free.

Nick Yarris 1:09:50 For free?

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 Yeah.

Nick Yarris 1:09:52 See what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:09:53 Well, I was probably foolish, financially. My manager didn't think it was a good idea. I just didn't care. I just... I was enjoying it.

Nick Yarris 1:10:00 That's what I love. That... Like, that's what I want to do, man. I want to be the dude, man.

Joe Rogan 1:10:05 It was also a struggling company that I believed in, and I wanted to help them. But, uh, what- what you're saying is, um, interesting because you, uh... The one theme that you keep repeating, that you want to do things for other people. You keep saying that, like you wanted to do that for May May, you wanted to make me proud. Y- This is a constant theme that you, you want, you want to do good for other people. That's an amazing, amazing mindset for someone who's been through everything that you've been through. That, that sentiment, that, that... And then your gratitude. That's another very, very powerful thing. Gratitude. Love and gratitude are two of the most in- incredible expressions, and some of the most influential, because when you show true gratitude to people and true love to people, they feel that. It... That affects the way they interact with the rest of the people that they're gonna experience. Like, if they run into a new person just moments after meeting you, they will be nicer, and they will, they will feel that gratitude and feel that love. That's real, and that's one thing that we all can do. You know, this thought that we're all ha- uh, powerless and helpless, that's one of the problems with spe- this, this society, is that this society is so overwhelming. We have so much information coming at us, and the message is that what's important is, you know, beautiful girls with short skirts, and fast, shiny cars, and big, giant houses, and private jets, and diamond rings, and expensive watches, and all this horse shit. And this is what people seek. They seek that instead of seeking love and gratitude, because it doesn't seem that that's important, but that's way more important. It's everything, because that literally changes the world. It changes the w- it's, uh... You know, I always thought that that expression, "The wings of the butterfly eventually become a hurricane," that's fucking stupid, 'cause that doesn't work that way.

Nick Yarris 1:11:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:57 A butterfly just generates a very small amount of wind, and they're small, and it doesn't really work that way. But the idea behind it, what, what it, what it, what it represents as a metaphor is that you literally, by your one person that lives amongst 300-plus million people in this country, one person with love and gratitude and inspiration, especially the way you can express yourself, that affects people you come in contact with, and that in turn affects they... people they come in contact with. And that literally can change the world. It actually could change the world. That's real.

Nick Yarris 1:12:36 Neuroplasticity, man. That's what I'm good at. I know it. I've helped so many people heal their lives when I've interacted with them in intense time. I've- I've made effort.

Joe Rogan 1:12:46 So let me s- let me stop you, because this is one thing that you said to me before the podcast, and you said it again during the podcast, that you only want to do this one podcast, you don't want to say any more. And I want to ask you why, because if you have this powerful message, the more people you reach and the more you express yourself with this message, you're not gonna cheapen your message. What you're gonna do is you're gonna get it out to more and more people. And the more people that you can get out your words, and the way you express yourself, that's gonna affect people, and it's gonna affect people in a very, very positive way.

Nick Yarris 1:13:18 Okay. But the other side of that, that no one can appreciate, is that I'm failed. I haven't been able to get anything going. I tried to start a podcast-

Joe Rogan 1:13:27 No, no, no, no, no, no.

Nick Yarris 1:13:28 I have.

Joe Rogan 1:13:29 Let me, let me stop you. Let me stop you. You're not failed. First of all, you've only been out of jail for 13 years. That's fucking crazy. You were in jail for 22 years on death row. There's not a whole lot of people who get through that experience and can tie their own fucking shoes after they're done.You know, you- you- you're- you have every right in the world to be shell-shocked and incapacitated. You're not. It's hard to get things going. The- the world does not open its doors for you, and success does not come easy. It doesn't work that way.

Nick Yarris 1:13:59 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:13:59 So, for you to say you failed, you haven't failed. You've already written books. You've already had a documentary made about you. You're in- in the process of making a feature-length film about your life. That's not a failure.

Nick Yarris 1:14:10 No, I- I just failed in getting the platforms together that I need.

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 It's just-

Nick Yarris 1:14:14 And, I guess-

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 ... it's not even failing. It's just it doesn't always work out right the first time.

Nick Yarris 1:14:18 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:14:18 It's not- it's not a fail- you're not a failure.

Nick Yarris 1:14:21 Okay, then here's the deal for you, sir. Prove your words right to me, and come on ... when I get my shit together, you come onto my podcast and we finish the con- the conversation later on.

Joe Rogan 1:14:31 I would do that. But even if I didn't, it doesn't matter.

Nick Yarris 1:14:34 All right, but-

Joe Rogan 1:14:35 You can do anything but... Wow, I just wanna pre- show you, you yourself, this idea that you're- you've failed is crazy. It's- you- you have not failed. If you've done thing- look, first of all, everyone does things that don't succeed, and then you recalibrate and you adjust and you try again. No one succeeds and wins the world championship in their first fight. No one writes a book, uh, without learning English and without practicing essays that becomes the greatest book the world's ever written... read... written, whatever. You- you- you- you take time and you learn. This is what life is about. Life is about this process. And through that process, you find yourself, through the difficult tasks that you undertake-

Nick Yarris 1:15:23 Maybe I-

Joe Rogan 1:15:23 ... you adjust and you become better.

Nick Yarris 1:15:26 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 1:15:27 You said you started a podcast, you fail-... Well, how long did you do it for?

Nick Yarris 1:15:30 I didn't. It never got off the ground. No one believes in me and then they say-

Joe Rogan 1:15:33 Well, then that's not a failure.

Nick Yarris 1:15:34 I know, I'm just saying, um-

Joe Rogan 1:15:35 First of all, look, the podcasts are easy, man. With that phone you have right there, I'm sure that phone has a, um, of a audio recorder. I've done-

Nick Yarris 1:15:44 My $11- my $11 phone probably does. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:15:46 Oh, they all do.

Nick Yarris 1:15:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:47 Every phone does.

Nick Yarris 1:15:48 Look-

Joe Rogan 1:15:48 That's not an $11 phone.

Nick Yarris 1:15:49 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:15:49 Come on, man, that's a regular Android phone, right?

Nick Yarris 1:15:51 Yeah. No, it's a-

Joe Rogan 1:15:52 It's a good phone.

Nick Yarris 1:15:53 It- it's, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:15:53 It's thin as shit.

Nick Yarris 1:15:54 ... one of these-

Joe Rogan 1:15:54 It thinks it's like a wafer.

Nick Yarris 1:15:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:15:56 These... I mean, look, if you had this phone fucking 10 years ago, people would think you were a wizard.

Nick Yarris 1:16:02 Yeah, man. If you're in the fifth century, of course you would be.

Joe Rogan 1:16:05 Yeah. Well, that phone-

Nick Yarris 1:16:06 All right, so-

Joe Rogan 1:16:06 ... I'm sure has a voice recorder.

Nick Yarris 1:16:07 ... Joe, you know you're kicking me into this, right? And I'm gonna have to respond because of the way I've always been wired. I'm going to do this then. I am.

Joe Rogan 1:16:15 You can do anything.

Nick Yarris 1:16:16 I am.

Joe Rogan 1:16:16 It's not just this.

Nick Yarris 1:16:16 No, listen, I am. All right? You need never again encourage me, sir.

Joe Rogan 1:16:20 Okay.

Nick Yarris 1:16:21 If I go around-

Joe Rogan 1:16:21 I just don't... I don't want you to beat yourself up.

Nick Yarris 1:16:22 ... doing that for others. No, I have been rough on myself 'cause I thought I'd have a platform and accomplished the things that I wanted to, and I felt really shitty that I wasn't able to take care and provide for my family. And that's the heart of it, really, is the struggle on that side. I wouldn't give a shit about fame. I've had the most amazing experiences in my life, man. One of my first interviews was the Village Voice, and the woman learns me at the end, Jennifer Gonnerman, she says, "Man, you know you're living one of the greatest stories ever told, man? This ain't no joke." And every time she's told me that word's in my head, I realize, comes with a hell of a ride and a price. So if I'm gonna own it, I gotta own all of it. I keep telling people to own it when you do well, so maybe I needed to bounce back, and this is the day I step forward and start kicking ass again. And maybe that will get me out of those tearful days that I've had to go through.

Joe Rogan 1:17:10 Well, you have every right to have a struggle. I mean, if anybody has any right to- to- to have difficult e- emotions, and a difficulty expressing those emotions, it's you. I- and I understand how you could dwell on things not succeeding the way you anticipated and wanted them to, but you just gotta keep going, man. You know-

Nick Yarris 1:17:31 You know, I'm such a honest person, I could never come on here and fake it. You know, I could never do that for you, man. I