Joe Rogan Experience #1191 - Peter Boghossian & James Lindsay

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... could even hear…

   1. PBPeter Boghossian0:00

      ... could even hear their breathing, it's so sensitive.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Yeah, it's good stuff. (breathing) Live already? Damn, there's no countdown? Jimmy, you're radical. You're radical. Mr. Boghossian, welcome back. Good to see you again, sir.

   3. PBPeter Boghossian0:16

      Thanks. Thanks. Good to be here. Thanks.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Mr. Lindsay-

   5. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay0:18

      Good to be here.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      ... James or Jim, depending upon preferences.

   7. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay0:20

      That's all right, go with Jim.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Uh, J- first of all, gentlemen, and there, there was one other person that you did this with, this whole project.

   9. PBPeter Boghossian0:27

      Helen Pluckrose from England.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       Uh, shout out to Helen from England.

   11. PBPeter Boghossian0:31

       Thanks.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       Uh, is she back across the pond right now?

   13. PBPeter Boghossian0:33

       She's across the pond. She's, uh...

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       Oh, fish and chips and-

   15. PBPeter Boghossian0:36

       She's making tea and managing-

   16. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay0:38

       Fish and chips.

   17. PBPeter Boghossian0:38

       ... Aerial Magazine.

   18. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay0:39

       That's right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Oh, excellent. All right. Well, shout out to her as well. Um, let's explain what you guys did and what's so significant about it, because, uh, when I first read it, my f- first inclination, I, I had two reactions. One was a, a huge laugh. I laughed really hard. And then I said, "Thank God somebody exposed this."

   20. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:01

       Exhales ] Yep.

   21. PBPeter Boghossian1:01

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       So, tell me, tell me what you guys did.

   23. PBPeter Boghossian1:04

       Jim, go for it.

   24. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:05

       Yeah, so over-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       Oh, fr- let's explain who you guys are and what you do.

   26. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:08

       Oh, okay, yeah.

   27. PBPeter Boghossian1:09

       Okay.

   28. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:09

       Um, my background is in mathematics. I bailed out on academia in 2010, though, because I kind of see the writing on the wall and, uh, so now I am a renegade gender scholar, and I write nonsense about genitals.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       (laughs)

   30. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:23

       That's primarily what I do. (laughs) I mean, I manage a business at home, so I, I got outta academia.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      all the various strange things in the spectrum of human behavior and, and all the things you encounter in life. And to segment and limit what is and is not, w- what's off limits and what's not off limits based on race-

   2. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:15

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:16

      ... based on things that a person can't control at all.

   4. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:19

      Mm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      You're just born white.

   6. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:21

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      So if you're born white, you're born an oppressor.

   8. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:23

      Mm-hmm. Right. Exactly.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:24

      You're, you're born a victimizer.

   10. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:25

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       And if you're a white male, you're a fucking piece of shit.

   12. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:28

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:28

       And you can say that.

   14. PBPeter Boghossian15:29

       White hetero male, in particular.

   15. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:30

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       Oh, God. I, I, I mean, I've seen so many tweets from people, that means so many virtue signaling tweets, but one of my favorite ones is this feminist who said, "All white m- uh, uh, white straight men are trash unless proven otherwise." (laughs)

   17. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:45

       Yeah, that's the thing, right? (laughs)

   18. PBPeter Boghossian15:48

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:48

       All of us?

   20. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:49

       All of us.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:49

       All of us.

   22. PBPeter Boghossian15:50

       All of us.

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:50

       There's 150 million-

   24. PBPeter Boghossian15:53

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:54

       ... of us. I mean, give or take, you know, how many gay folks there are?

   26. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay15:57

       Yeah, trash.

   27. PBPeter Boghossian15:58

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       Yeah. Trash.

   29. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay16:00

       No problem. Prove-

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:00

       And let's proven otherwise.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   (laughs) …

   1. PBPeter Boghossian30:00

      say they're enraged. (laughs)

   2. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay30:03

      (laughs)

   3. PBPeter Boghossian30:03

      You know, I mean, the only, the only thing I can think of is like if, if you taught at a Christian school and then you went in and, you know, took videos and posted them on YouTube of defecating in the Bible and then just walked into the school. So I think it- it's kind of similar in that they, they have bought hook, line, and sinker into microaggressions, trigger warnings, safe spaces, diversity initiatives. There- there are no... There's no questioning. There's... And it- and it's something for me that makes me...... deeply uncomfortable when my students can't ask questions, when, when they, they can't... They're, they're just uncomfortable to voice their opinions about things. And I think that, that pe- to say the least, a lot of people are enraged at me, but exactly what Jim said, some people will come and they're like, "Oh, thank you so much." Like, and that... But again, I can't be public about this.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:53

      What is the ratio?

   5. PBPeter Boghossian30:55

      (sighs)

   6. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay30:56

      I mean, for me, it's like 95% people who are really happy it happened and can't let it be known.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:03

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay31:03

      But I'm not, you know, facing these people every day.

   9. PBPeter Boghossian31:06

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       Well, you know, w- through the videos from Evergreen State... (clears throat)

   11. PBPeter Boghossian31:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       You can see Bret Weinstein's interactions with not just students, but also some of the professors that were there. There were some of these preposterous people that he had to work with-

   13. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay31:19

       Oh, yeah.

   14. PBPeter Boghossian31:19

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:19

       ... that are b- buying in hook, line, and sinker to this stuff and they live in these insulated worlds.

   16. PBPeter Boghossian31:24

       Absolutely.

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:25

       And this... And they just... They, they create these people that also want to stay inside these insulated worlds and then just d- sort of stew in these ideas, and then again, go out into the real world.

   18. PBPeter Boghossian31:39

       Yeah, and they think they're better people as a result.

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:41

       Yeah.

   20. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay31:41

       Right?

   21. PBPeter Boghossian31:41

       Yeah.

   22. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay31:42

       So it's a big trick.

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:43

       They're doing the good work.

   24. PBPeter Boghossian31:44

       Yeah.

   25. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay31:44

       Yeah, 'cause to like question this, maybe to look at it and say, "Uh, you know, that kind of looks like bullshit, but I don't know." A lot of these guys are left-leaning people or outright leftists. A lot of them want to do the right thing, right?

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:56

       Yeah.

   27. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay31:56

       They really do. These people really care about progressive agendas-

   28. PBPeter Boghossian31:59

       (coughs)

   29. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay32:00

       ... uh, you know, getting over any lingering discrimination that's going on, racism, sexism, et cetera. They really want to do the right thing. Good for them, right? That's what we want.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:10

       Yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   We, we got rid…

   1. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay45:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      We, we got rid of the ice princess.

   3. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay45:01

      It's all diverse. That's the thing-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      Yeah.

   5. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay45:03

      ... is the way that di- diversity is d- uh, defined. If you had a panel that was just black guys, it would be 100% diverse.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:10

      Whoa.

   7. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay45:10

      Yeah, so they've redefined the word diversity.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:12

      Yeah.

   9. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay45:12

      They've redefined the word inclusion.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:14

       Yeah.

   11. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay45:14

       So... But to people outside the academy, they, they think, "Oh, diversity. It's a great thing," right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:19

       Right.

   13. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay45:19

       You know, we have... But that's not what it means. It means kind of when everybody has the same ideas about something. And-

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:26

       It's also when you... If you are enforcing diversity, for what... Look, we have to... We would have to find out, like ultimately, the goal is to find out what, what causes people to succeed and e- especially succeeding in something that is benign as talking, right? You're just talking.

   15. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay45:46

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:46

       That's all you're doing. So what causes someone to succeed in talking? What makes their ideas valuable? What makes them someone you'd enjoy listening to? And then finding, like, what, what impediments there are to that in, in all the various communities and fix it at the root level. W- what doesn't work is saying, "We need one Chinese lady."

   17. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay46:07

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:07

       "We need one black guy, and we need one white guy." 'Cause if you do something like that, you're not gonna get the best show.

   19. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay46:14

       Nope.

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:14

       Or you're not gonna get the best anything.

   21. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay46:16

       Well, you're not even guaranteed to achieve the goal you're claiming. So it's, again, it goes back to theory. In theory, and I mean theory in terms of postmodern critical theory that this stuff's all based in that we studied, the idea is that if you have a particular identity, now you have a particular view of the world, and people of other identities have different ones.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay46:33

       And in fact, there's this whole thing called standpoint epistemology that says that if you have a marginalized identity, you know more about the world than other people because you live in two worlds at once. So the i- the idea is, "Oh, if we get a black guy in here, he's had a different life experience, therefore he can speak truly to that.

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:50

       Right.

   25. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay46:50

       If you get a Chinese lady in here, she can speak to that." So on and so forth. So the guess is that by virtue merely of bringing in people who look different with different, uh, races or genders or sexes or sexualities, then you automatically get a diverse set of opinions.

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:08

       Right.

   27. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay47:09

       But that doesn't work. That's not how that actually works. You could take people of every race, educate them on the exact same social justice curriculum, and they all think exactly the same thing.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:18

       But at least in something like hosting the Today Show, you are just talking. Once you put these sort of diversity standards to something like mathematics-

   29. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay47:27

       Oh, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:27

       ... then, that's, that's when things get super squirrelly.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:08:40

   Mm. …

   1. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:00:00

      what was it? PC principal or whatever? When South Park makes fun of that, the only reason people laugh, if their theory is right, is because they're powerful.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:07

      Mm.

   3. PBPeter Boghossian1:00:07

      Mm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:08

      If their theory's wrong, 'cause it's just funny, then we can talk about something different. But, if they're actually right, if they're actually making a point here, they're not recognizing that they're admitting that they have seized a lot of cultural power. And, that's why people celebrate when, when you go back against the stuff. That's why people have sent us so many emails like, "This is the greatest thing ever. Thank you so much for doing this." There's all this sh- shit like, "You guys are heroes," blah, blah, blah. Why? Because they wanted to see you laugh. Why? Because it's funny as hell is why. And why? Because these people are ... They're, they're influencing the shit out of stuff. Yeah.

   5. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:00:40

      And, if they weren't, if they were just, you know, victims who don't have a voice, who can't make any impact, who aren't bullying people, everybody would be like, "Why are you bullying those guys? Why are you being a dick?" Right? But, everybody thinks it's funny, and why? Because-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

      Because they have real impact.

   7. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:00:55

      They have real impact.

   8. PBPeter Boghossian1:00:55

      They have real impact, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

      Yeah.

   10. PBPeter Boghossian1:00:56

       And, that's one of the things that we really wanna convey to people, is that this, what happens in the academy does not stay in the academy.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:02

       No, it's spread.

   12. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:01:03

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

       It's spread throughout the world now.

   14. JLJames (Jim) Lindsay1:01:05

       (clears throat)

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

       And, I've, I've read some articles about some things that we've said on this show, that are just fucking completely preposterous and taken totally out of context, and presented as some evidence of, you know, whatever transgression that's im- im- im-

   16. PBPeter Boghossian1:01:19

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

       ... impossible to defend.

   18. PBPeter Boghossian1:01:22

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       It's very strange. It's, it's a very strange time for-... for communication. It's a very strange time for ideas.

   20. PBPeter Boghossian1:01:29

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

       But I also think it's really exciting. It's exciting that all this nonsense is going on. That's one of the things that I really loved about what you guys have done. It's exciting. It's exciting that you guys have, uh, you've infiltrated and had these fucking dummies publ- not just publish your shit, but praise it.

   22. PBPeter Boghossian1:01:45

       Yeah, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       And, and say how amazing it is that you wrote a bit about fat bodybuilding. (laughs)

   24. PBPeter Boghossian1:01:52

       (laughs) Yeah.

   25. NANarrator1:01:54

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:54

       I mean, fat acceptance-

   27. PBPeter Boghossian1:01:56

       You could say that.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

       ... is this one, fat shaming and fat acceptance, they're, they're two preposterous phrases. They really are. You know, I mean, you, you shouldn't be mean to people. That's it. But fat shaming, because someone's fat, no, you, if you, "You can't call me fat 'cause I'm not fat," doesn't work.

   29. PBPeter Boghossian1:02:12

       Yeah, so that's the-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:13

       It's really similar.

Episode duration: 1:58:36