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Joe Rogan Experience #1200 - Ross Edgley

Ross Edgley is a former professional British water polo player who currently works as a model and personal trainer. In November 2018, he became the first person to swim around Great Britain.

Joe RoganhostRoss EdgleyguestJamie Vernonguest
Nov 13, 20182h 52mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:03 – 0:31

    The 2,000-mile idea: why swim around Great Britain?

    1. JR

      Four, three, two, one. (hands smack) Dude.

    2. RE

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      (laughs) First of all, what possessed you to wanna swim around the entire UK? How many thousands of miles is that?

    4. RE

      Yeah, uh, 2,000 miles-

    5. JR

      Jesus.

    6. RE

      ... altogether. Yeah.

    7. JR

      2,000 miles of swimming?

    8. RE

      Yeah, yeah. It, it seemed like a good idea at the time. And then, (laughs) halfway around, I realized how big Great Britain was. (laughs)

  2. 0:31 – 1:57

    Earlier ocean experiment: towing a 100-pound tree between Caribbean islands

    1. JR

      But you, you've done some long swims before, but not, like, nothing even remotely. Like, what's the longest swim you did before this?

    2. RE

      Yeah, I did, um... Oh, this is a bit of a strange story. I did, um... I tried to swim between Saint Lucia and Martinique, uh, two Caribbean islands. Um, it's only 40 kilometers from point to point. Um, and, and for charity, I was trying to swim, uh, from point to point with a, with a 100-pound tree attached to my trunks. Um, so I was pulling the 100-pound (laughs) tree, uh, six-foot waves crashing down. And, and I actually didn't make it from point to point. I was, like, five kilometers from the end. And, um, when I didn't make it, I decided to swim back the other way. So, I ended up swimming over 100 kilometers with a 100-pound (laughs) tree. It took me 32 hours, um, but still didn't make it. So, so it's-

    3. JR

      Why... What, what went wrong where you didn't make it?

    4. RE

      Tides, currents, you know. And, and I-

    5. JR

      Oh, you just got swept away?

    6. RE

      Yeah, yeah. And espe-

    7. JR

      Especially attached to a tree, right?

    8. RE

      (laughs) Exactly.

    9. JR

      How big was this tree?

    10. RE

      Uh, so 100 pounds. But it, I mean, it floats, but it was more the drag.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. RE

      S- so if, if there's any influence from tides or currents, and it's pulling you in one direction, I mean, I was basically gonna miss Martinique. So I, I don't know, I was, I was heading to Cuba, you know, or somewhere like that.

    13. JR

      Ugh.

    14. RE

      And then on the way back down, you know, I was g- uh, they turned to me again, and they said, like, "You're gonna miss Saint Lucia. You're, you're, you're gonna end up in..." I don't know, whatever's further south than Saint Lucia. (laughs) Um, and I think I realized, as, as physically fit as you are, um, the ocean just, just doesn't care. You know?

    15. JR

      Yeah.

  3. 1:57 – 3:23

    Royal Marines challenge and a 48-hour swim trial

    1. RE

      It just doesn't care. And so, after that... This was last year, this was November last year. Um, kind of felt I had unfinished business with, with the ocean, um-

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. RE

      ... came b- came back to England, uh, rung up, um, friends of mine at the Royal Marines. I said, "Guys, look, this is gonna sound so, so strange." I said, "But I just, I need to get it out my system. I just need to see how far I can swim in 48 hours." So, I swam 48 hours. Um, I can't remember what it was in the end. I think it was 160 kilometers, something, something like that. And I finished, and, and I had basically drenched foot. So, where your, your, your feet and your hands are, are so kind of... They've got so much water in, it's almost going moldy, you know?

    4. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RE

      It's kind of... Yeah, so I had drenched foot. And I'm sort of sitting there nursing, nursing my feet. And, uh, one of the, one of the officers, uh, uh, a good friend of mine, and they came over, and they just said, uh, they went, you know, real English, Royal Marine. They said, "You, boy." And I said, "Yes." And they said, "Oh, what are you, what are you training for?" And I said, uh, "Oh, I'm, I'm training for, uh, potentially attempting the world's longest current neutral swim." And he just paused, and he, he, he sipped his cup of tea. And he looked me up and down, and he just goes, (smacks lips) "That just sounds a bit lame." (laughs) I was like, "Okay, what-"

    6. JR

      (laughs)

    7. RE

      "... what do you want me to do?" And he pauses, and he says, "You just need to man up. You need to man up and swim around Great Britain." And I was like, (sighs) "Whoa." And I can't, I can't just... I, I couldn't say no. Once the idea-

    8. JR

      Should've said, "Why don't you swim with me, bitch?"

    9. RE

      (laughs)

    10. JR

      "I'll do it if you do it, motherfucker." (laughs)

    11. RE

      (laughs)

    12. JR

      That's a crazy thing for somebody to be asking you to do.

  4. 3:23 – 6:43

    Eccentric British endurance history: Captain Webb, Bannister, and breaking “impossible” barriers

    1. RE

      No, I know, right? So, I, you know, I, I... So I said fine. Once the idea stuck with me, I mean, you, you know, the, we've got this real history and heritage of, of British eccentric explorers.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RE

      Um, and for me growing up, there's a story of Captain Webb, so the, the first guy to swim across the English Channel. And for those who don't know, English Channel, uh, you know, the tides, they believed, were, were too strong. The water was too cold. They said, "You, you just can't make it across the English Channel. It's impossible." But Captain Webb refused to listen. And, uh, 1875, August, uh, crossed the English Channel, and this is the part I love, on a diet of beef broth and brandy in a woolen wetsuit, he swam, I think it was 23 hours breaststroke with his head out the water because, and I quote, "Front crawl was ungentlemanly like." And, and there was that element that I just thought, "That's amazing."

    4. JR

      Front crawl, what is the front crawl?

    5. RE

      So, so basically, that's front crawl.

    6. JR

      The regular one?

    7. RE

      Yeah. But way back in 1875, it was like, "No, that's-"

    8. JR

      He said it was ungentlemanly?

    9. RE

      Yeah, it was-

    10. JR

      The, the movements itsel- themselves?

    11. RE

      Yeah, it was still being developed as a technique. Whereas, you know, if you were a gentleman, and you were a swimmer, you swim breaststroke, you know? You-

    12. JR

      Wow.

    13. RE

      Exactly. (laughs)

    14. JR

      Head out of the water the whole time?

    15. RE

      Just the whole way, 23 hours. And again, like, the, the, the support boat was saying, you know, "Get out. You're not, you're not gonna make it. You're not gonna make it." And he just refused. And 23 hours, so, you know, that's part of a night swim as well, head out the water just all the way.

    16. JR

      Why brandy? Is he, is he getting fucked up? Or just a little bit of brandy?

    17. RE

      (laughs) Do you know? I don't know. Maybe. It might have been a bit of Dutch courage. But I think there was, you know, certainly back then, sports nutrition isn't what it is today.

    18. JR

      Right.

    19. RE

      So, I think there was an element. He was even, like, uh, lubing himself up in, in goose fat, you know? This is way back.

    20. JR

      To make, make himself slicker?

    21. RE

      Slicker, and I think there was an element of warmth, or that was certainly the belief.

    22. JR

      Mm, right.

    23. RE

      So, it was-

    24. JR

      Did... The Tour de France guys, didn't they drink wine? That was, like, a big thing back in the day.

    25. RE

      (sighs) Way back, yeah. I mean, it wasn't until long ago. W- I mean, me and Jamie were just, just talking now about football back in England. And it wasn't till, you know, too long ago, I think maybe 100 years ago, they used to just keep brandy in the dressing room in case you needed to warm yourself up-

    26. JR

      Really?

    27. RE

      ... before you went out. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    28. JR

      Wow.

    29. RE

      Yeah, yeah.

    30. JR

      So, they would play soccer drunk.

  5. 6:43 – 8:16

    The real enemy: Scottish whirlpools, 10-knot currents, and “wind over tide” chaos

    1. RE

      And so that's why in a, and again, in a much, much smaller way, when I had that conversation about swimming around Great Britain, everybody said, "It can't be done." Um, yes, it's 2,000 miles, but there's giant whirlpools in Scotland called the Corryvreckan, uh, Penland Firth, renowned around the world. If you get that wrong, you're disappearing backwards at 10 knots. You, you, there's no way you're swimming against that. And, and 10 knots-

    2. JR

      Wow.

    3. RE

      ... that's, that's a dolphin speed.

    4. JR

      Jesus. (laughs)

    5. RE

      Yes, so you n-

    6. JR

      What is 10 knots in miles per hour?

    7. RE

      It's basically 10 miles per hour. Yeah, yeah.

    8. JR

      Oh my God. 10 miles per hour backwards as you're trying to go forwards?

    9. RE

      Basically, yeah. Penland Firth, so the top of Scotland, the currents that go across there-

    10. JR

      So it's running at a good clip-

    11. RE

      But, oh, yeah. I m-

    12. JR

      ... backwards?

    13. RE

      Yeah, I mean, we got it good. We, we, we managed to basically predict it so well that I, I, I think that was probably my top speed, which I did, uh, 8.7 knots. So 8.7 miles per hour, I, I was basically cruising along the top, which is-

    14. JR

      Wow.

    15. RE

      ... which is like a dolphin, you know?

    16. JR

      So you were having the waves behind you, pushing you almost?

    17. RE

      Well, and see, now that's what's interesting, because I had the tides and currents with me, not necessarily the waves.

    18. JR

      Yeah, I, I said it wrong.

    19. RE

      And, and when you get... But, but actually you made a good point in terms of when you get wind over tide. So if you've got 10 knots going this way-

    20. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RE

      ... but you've even got a little bit of wind and waves going this way, y- it can get choppy, it gets-

    22. JR

      Oh, okay.

    23. RE

      And, and again, sort of looking at West Scotland, wind over tide, you can get 40 knots coming straight down the barrel, but you're trying to swim with the tide, and-

    24. JR

      Whoa.

    25. RE

      Yeah.

    26. JR

      So the wind is coming at you, but the tide is going the opposite way?

    27. RE

      And as you can imagine, that just-

    28. JR

      Oh my God.

    29. RE

      Yeah, yeah.

  6. 8:16 – 12:14

    Navigation and scheduling: tide prediction, zig-zag swims, and ‘six hours on/six off’ theory

    1. JR

      So how do you predict this, this, this tide that you have to get right?

    2. RE

      Yeah, I mean, it's, it's in, completely in theory, and this is what I realized when I, when I sat down and we started plot- sort of plotting the Great British swim.

    3. JR

      What is it called again? What is the, the issue that'll push you back?

    4. RE

      Oh, just the title, yeah. So-

    5. JR

      What is it called, that area?

    6. RE

      The- Oh.

    7. JR

      That you say you gotta get right?

    8. RE

      Oh, so Penland Firth.

    9. JR

      Penden Firth?

    10. RE

      Uh, the Penland Firth.

    11. JR

      Penland Firth?

    12. RE

      Yeah, yeah.

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RE

      And that's that, like I said, renowned around the world. But, but equally, if you imagine the shape of Great Britain, there's all sorts of kind of compression where the water will just come rushing through. And as well as the Penland Firth, you can get, you know, six knots around Wales. There's an island called Skomer. And if you get that right, you are disappearing up, you know, and you're winning. You get it wrong, again, you're j- you're going backwards. And for me-

    15. JR

      Wow.

    16. RE

      ... for me to do a continuous stage swim, if I'm going backwards, I've gotta start where I was going backwards. So for me, getting every single tide right, and that's why I was so f- the team were amazing. Uh, there was a, uh, the captain, uh, Matt, was just incredible, that every night the homework began.

    17. JR

      Jim, are we okay here? Is, no? Did we crash? All right, folks, if you're listening or watching, we had a little technical difficulty, so this is not streaming live, will be uploaded later. We were just going over how you predicted you had to, and your team had to predict how the tide was coming, because if it went wrong, you'd get pushed backwards at like 10 miles an hour.

    18. RE

      Yeah, basically. And, and th- and this is the thing, I think with the Great British Swim, we were kind of taking swimming as most people understand it, and we were, we were removing it and putting it, uh, in an arena that was so different. So and, and I think that's why it was, it, it did so well kind of online as well, the community around it, because obviously swimmers were interested, but you know, surfers started to get involved 'cause they understood the waves. Um, sailors, fishermen, you know, all sorts of people started to say, you know, sometimes i- in Great Britain, it's not t- safe to take a boat around the top of Scotland, you know, for instance, never mind a swimmer. Um, so that's, that's why it was amazing that, that on the entire series, it became a, a melting pot and an exchange of ideas. Because nobody knew how to get a human body around the coast of Great Britain. It w- wasn't just about swimming. And, and that was what was really cool.

    19. JR

      How d- how do they know like when the tides are going one way or the other? How, how do they predict that?

    20. RE

      Yeah, I mean, tides are so predictable. So in theory, um, they change every six hours. So in theory, when we sat down and we looked, um, we know that if you do six hours on, six hours off for 157 days, you'll make it around the coast of Great Britain, you know? And, and, and that was the theory. So you do this biphasic sleep-

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RE

      ... and, and you swim for 12 hours a day. But that's all theory. There's times when, as I mentioned, uh, giant whirlpools or, or the tides might not necessarily... If you imagine sort of that's Great Britain there, the tides don't necessarily go always like this, so they're not that predictable. Sometimes if there's kind of like this, like that's kind of Wales there, the tides will do this. So you'll kind of just-

    23. JR

      You're, you're doing all these different things that people are not gonna see-

    24. RE

      Right. (laughs) Right. Uh-

    25. JR

      ... if they're listening to it on audio. So just try to de- just describe it.

    26. RE

      Right. So basically, rather than the tides just going up and down and working with you-

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RE

      ... um, sometimes-

    29. JR

      Sometimes they cross.

    30. RE

      Cross, yeah. So you're just kind of-

  7. 12:14 – 15:20

    Corryvreckan survival story: jellyfish tentacle on the face and swollen goggles

    1. JR

      So when you encounter something like that and you get stuck, do you pull out of the water and try back again later at the same location?

    2. RE

      You do. But quite often, if it was there, it's still gonna be there. S-

    3. JR

      Oh, it just, it is what it is.

    4. RE

      Yeah. So, so sometimes, there's, there's no option. And, and, and perhaps the best example of this, um, I've mentioned it before, it's called the Corryvreckan, so, uh, sort of west coast of Scotland. And, um, it's a giant whirlpool. And, and Matt, the captain, turned to me and said, "Look, Ross, you know, I need you to swim and I need you to swim hard. You know, you need to swim six hours. You just need to be clear of this whirlpool." Um, so as we were swimming past it, I set my watch and I swam hard for six hours. But about three hours in, um, I got stung by a jellyfish. And I've been stung by jellyfish a lot before. It's just, you know, it's painful, but it was, it was bearable. Um, but this one particular jellyfish, it just, it was searing into my skin. It just, it wouldn't stop throbbing. And so I, I carried on swimming, three hours past, and, and it was just unbearable. So I popped my head up and I looked at Matt, the captain, from the boat. I said, "Matt, I'm so sorry. I've been stung. I'm g- you know, I'm gonna have to stop. Um, I've been stung by a jellyfish, but it's, the pain's just not going away." And as, as I said that to him, he looked down at me and he said, "Yeah, I know, 'cause the tentacle's still wrapped around your face." So I'd basically been swimming for three hours-

    5. JR

      With a jellyfish on your face.

    6. RE

      ... wearing a jellyfish-

    7. JR

      Ugh.

    8. RE

      ... so it had wrapped into my goggles. So I took my goggles off-

    9. JR

      Ugh.

    10. RE

      ... unpeeled this fat tentacle, threw it away, um, a- a- and then, like I said, I'll, I'll show you in a minute, I'll, I'll show you in a minute, but there was a picture where my, my face sort of changed shape and the goggles wouldn't fit on my face anymore because my, my eye sockets were so swelled. Um, but I knew that, again, for all of this happening, the Corryvreckan, the giant whirlpool was still to my left. So Matt was like, "You still need to swim. You still need to swim." So I ended up putting the goggles over my face and to try and get them to seal, I just punched them into my face so you just had these perfect ring, and then I managed to-

    11. JR

      'Cause you were so swollen?

    12. RE

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      So you had to push them through the swelling?

    14. RE

      Basically, (laughs) yeah. Yes.

    15. JR

      Oh my God.

    16. RE

      So you swim. Um, I made another hour. We, we got clear of the Corryvreckan, so we managed to clear this giant whirlpool. I collapse onto the boat, and, um, and this is the thing. It was at that point that I collapsed, exhausted, face now a different shape to when I started that particular swim. And, um, and the team looked at me, and they saw how bad I was, how, how beaten up I was, but they also knew that, that the sea just doesn't care, and in six hours, the tide was gonna change and I'd, uh, gonna have to do that all over again.

    17. JR

      Wow.

    18. RE

      And, and it was that kind of brutal lesson from nature that, that from a sports science background, I'm interested in, you know, rehab, rest, recovery, nutrition strategies, all of this. But with swimming around Great Britain, it, it very quickly became apparent that the sea just doesn't care. It just doesn't care that, that you need to rehab your shoulders. It doesn't care that the ligaments and tendons in your shoulders are hurting, you might get impingement from swimming too much. You know, none of this. And, um, that's why it went from swimming, as I understood it and how a lot of people understand it, to something completely like surviving, basically, in the water.

  8. 15:20 – 17:20

    Daily logistics: eating during swims, freezing wetsuits, storms, and the June-to-November timeline

    1. JR

      So your swimming schedule would be six hours on, and then you would try to rest. When would you eat?

    2. RE

      Uh, during the swims or, or, or between? And-

    3. JR

      During the swims?

    4. RE

      Yeah. Yeah, so quite often just, you know, throwing bananas at me and, and just-

    5. JR

      Wow.

    6. RE

      ... uh, you know-

    7. JR

      Salty bananas?

    8. RE

      (laughs) Basically, yeah. Yeah, just salty bana- and-

    9. JR

      And you would eat them while you were in the water?

    10. RE

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      Wow.

    12. RE

      Yeah, 'cause, 'cause again, going back to what we were talking about with the Pendle Firth, you could get out and you could get on the boat, but sometimes, in a really good tide, if you are just in the water, you could be making four knots. You don't have to swim, but if you get in the freezing cold water of Scotland and you are quite happy getting hit in the face by tentacles, you can still make four knots. And so that's why so often it became about, uh, something different than swimming. It was just, it was just mental fortitude, it was physical fortitude, it was, um, basically... And, and I always remember actually, uh, first day of autumn, um, I got up, it was two o'clock, so it was a night swim, two o'clock in the morning, and I left my wetsuit out to, to dry. And, um, I had to scrape just a thin layer of ice off the wetsuit before I could put it on.

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. RE

      (laughs) But if I didn't, if I didn't get in and I didn't scrape that, that, that wetsuit, then that would've been, you know, 15 miles potentially that we would've missed out on. And if-

    15. JR

      Mm.

    16. RE

      ... you miss those 15 miles, the, the window of opportunity to swim around Great Britain because of the British summer being notoriously unpredictable and quite short, um, we wouldn't have made it round. Because even towards the end, there was two storms, uh, Storm Alan and Storm Callie, uh, uh, Ali and Calum, who kind of stopped us for those two days where we couldn't swim 'cause you, you just couldn't swim in a storm. It wasn't safe.

    17. JR

      So when you were swimming, this was all during the summer?

    18. RE

      Yeah, yeah, uh, through the autumn, and then we finished November the 4th, which was going into the winter-

    19. JR

      Oh.

    20. RE

      ... as well. (laughs)

    21. JR

      And you started what month?

    22. RE

      Uh, June the 1st. (laughs)

    23. JR

      So for, since June, you've been swimming?

    24. RE

      Yeah, basically. (laughs)

    25. JR

      God damn, man.

    26. RE

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      That's so crazy.

    28. RE

      Yeah.

  9. 17:20 – 25:20

    Why a ‘tank’ body can work: strength + endurance, concurrent training, and work capacity

    1. JR

      You know what's interesting too? You're not built like a guy I'd expect to be doing this.

    2. RE

      Right. (laughs)

    3. JR

      You're built, you're built like a tank.

    4. RE

      Right. (laughs)

    5. JR

      Like, that's not normal. Like, you're a big jack guy.

    6. RE

      Right. (laughs)

    7. JR

      You, you look more like an MMA fighter or powerlifter even.

    8. RE

      Right.

    9. JR

      Like, you don't look like an endurance athlete.

    10. RE

      Yeah, which is... And, and we were just, we were speaking about this 'cause I, I love the episode with you and CT Fletcher.

    11. JR

      I love that guy.

    12. RE

      I, I loved that. And, and, uh, you know, was a big fan of, you know, Cal-

    13. JR

      Well, there you are. Look at this fucking picture.

    14. RE

      (laughs)

    15. JR

      Yo, dude. Get the fuck outta here.

    16. RE

      (laughs)

    17. JR

      If someone said that guy's gonna swim around Great Brit- I'd be like, "That guy's gonna swim for half an hour and then he's gonna have a fucking heart attack."

    18. RE

      No, you're right. There, there was a lot... Yeah. I, and I would probably be inclined to agree with you. But what I find interesting is when you start looking at, um, so strength and stamina...For so often-

    19. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    20. RE

      ... people believed the two couldn't co-exist, you know?

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. RE

      And, uh, Robert Hixon, uh, and his, his, uh, sort of research around concurrent training, that, um, basically saying if, if you train for strength and stamina, you dilute the potency of the stimuli. So what, what I mean by that is if, you know, we went into the gym just now, and, uh, you know, m- me, you, and Jamie walked into the gym, and we were like, "Okay, okay. Let's, let's go and see, uh, what we're doing on, uh, you know, in the squat rack." You know, that's strength, your body's ability to generate force. And we train that, and then all of a sudden, I was like, "Okay. No, no, no. Now let's go over to the rowing machine, or let's go for a swim. Let's go and swim 10K." Then all of a sudden, our bodies are gonna go, "Well, hang on. Which one do you want us to adapt to? You know, looking at, you know, molecular biology, which one do you want us to adapt to, strength or stamina?" And again, you dilute the potency of that stimuli. However, there's the theory that if you separate them, within the... Ver- I'm going off on a little bit of a tangent here, but-

    23. JR

      No, please.

    24. RE

      (laughs) Thank you.

    25. JR

      It's good.

    26. RE

      Looking at, um, Verkhoshansky, so one of the greatest conditioning coaches to ever exist, he talks about this idea of adaptive energy, saying that in any given day, you have a certain amount of adaptive energy. And if you are able to fit both a, a training session that, that, like I said, causes your body to adapt to both strength and stamina, and you separate them, under those conditions, they can co-exist.

    27. JR

      So you separate them by how much time?

    28. RE

      As much as needed for optimal recovery.

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. RE

      So, so yeah. If, if we did... And this is the, this is what I find fascinating about MMA, 'cause you're essentially saying to an MMA athlete, "I need you to be strong, fast, quick. I need you to be muscularly endured, but I also need you to have plyometric speed strength."

  10. 25:20 – 33:44

    Strength science tangent: hypertrophy mechanisms and the ‘strength deficit’ lab concept

    1. JR

      I think it depends on who the man with the muscle mass is, because a lot of guys with muscle mass, they got that muscle mass from doing very low reps, high weight. I mean, what- what kind of exercise do you do that gives you a build like that?

    2. RE

      See, n- and that's a good point. I mean, I loved what you did with, um, with Dorian Yates, and, um, I think when you start looking at the- the three mechanisms to build muscular hypertrophy, you start looking at, um, metabolic stress. So, um, metabolic stress being exactly what you just said, lots and lots of reps. Dorian Yates being a great example of that. That is more muscular hypertrophy. Bodybuilding-centric work-

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. RE

      ... okay, that's metabolic stress, lots and lots of reps. Um, but then you can also look at mechanical tension, so that's more your powerlifters. You know, really, really high weight, lower volume, just real strength. Your body's ability to generate force. That is what I do. Um, and yes, it's shown to induce muscular hypertrophy, so to increase muscle mass, but arguably more functional, you know, than when you- you'd be looking at a, you know, bodybuilder, Mr Olympia, something like that. And then you have, uh, muscle damage which is more eccentric contractions, so more arguably sort of CrossFit, you know-

    5. JR

      So, a bodybuilder to achieve that physique besides using steroids, they have to use lots of repetitions?

    6. RE

      Yes.

    7. JR

      Is that- is that the idea?

    8. RE

      Yeah, that's it. So- so when you say what do- do I specifically use-

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RE

      ... it's more mechanical tension. So-

    11. JR

      So, it's more powerlifting, cleans, deadlifts, things along those lines?

    12. RE

      It's exactly it.

    13. JR

      Yeah?

    14. RE

      Yeah. Yeah.

    15. JR

      Yeah. 'Cause you're not built like a bodybuilder, but you're- you're built like someone who's very strong.

    16. RE

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. RE

      And- and I think that's it, where you start. And- and- and that's not to say, you know, when you look at, you know, to- to use you as an example, s- so if we had you in the sports lab, we would say, "Okay, what is your strength deficit?" So, your strength deficit is- is, I- you know, say we had you on, you know, the leg press and we said, "Joe, we wanna- we wanna look at how much force your legs can generate with you just using basically your training strength." Your training strength is defined as the strength that you would use just leg pressing, not getting you all, like, psyched on pre-workout, smelling salts, none of that.

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. RE

      We would just say, "Joe, go and leg press."

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. RE

      And you'd just leg press. And that's what you can generate there. But then, in the sports lab back at Loughborough University, we would start using, uh, basically, e- e- electric, basically using electrical impulses to- to make the muscles contract beyond what you could generate yourself. So, that is, what your body could generate without you trying to send those impulses to the body, it's you- the actual- the actual potential muscle, the- the strength of the muscles themselves.

    23. JR

      How do you determine that?

    24. RE

      Like I said, basically, um, electrocuting the muscles and stimulating-

    25. JR

      Whoa.

    26. RE

      ... involuntarily.

    27. JR

      And through that, do they measure it? How?

    28. RE

      So... Oh, so then that measures your a- uh, your maximal output with you not trying to use it yourself. It's involuntary. So, that is something that you wouldn't have control over. I-

    29. JR

      So, they s- what do they- how do they do that?

    30. RE

      Like, essentially electrocuting you.

  11. 33:44 – 36:33

    Psychology of extremes: ‘swim with a smile’ vs ‘get feral’ and central governor theory

    1. JR

      There's something about a lot of these endurance people. Well, I guess not Courtney, Courtney Dauwalter, she's so carefree and silly, but you're very loose and relaxed. I always consider like those people, like dark, there's some darkness to those extreme endurance athletes.

    2. RE

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      There's darkness that they're, they're running from some darkness.

    4. RE

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      You know what I mean?

    6. RE

      No, I do. I've- and I've had this conversation with a few people because they said something similar, and I think it's, um, I mean, you know, to slightly go off on- on another tangent here, because I think we've covered the physical aspect and- and work capacity, which- which I've addressed, but, um, I think... And- and this is one thing I- I genuinely just wanted to almost quiz you on and get your thoughts on this, is, uh, certainly the, throughout the Great British Swim, it- it subjected my body to a fatigue like I've never experienced before. It was just-

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RE

      Yeah, sleep deprivation, just ligaments, tendons in my shoulders, just wondering what was going on. And, um, for me, you almost develop a- a- a split personality in that there's times when I- I'd quite often say you need to swim with a smile because, you know, it's 157 days. If you're stressed or it's like a marathon where you grit your teeth and you try and get through it, um, I think we're very aware that, you know, the body is this complex biochemical organism. And if you're stressed, cortisol levels spike, inflammation, your immune system, everything's affected. So for me, I was treating it not like a marathon. I had to treat it swim with a smile, you know, think this is, this is life now-

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. RE

      ... you know, see? Um, but then equally, there were times when, you know, I- I wouldn't swim with a smile. It was just, you know, Corey Vechon being a great example, you know, I certainly wasn't all that happy then. And- and for me, it's those times when I- I say, "You've got to just get feral." You know, you've really just got to... And a good friend of mine, you know, back in, back in England, um, uh, SAS-trained, and he said to me, "Ross, you're- you're a really nice guy and everything, but there's gonna be times when you just need to, you know, no smiles and just get feral." Which- which I, thinking about it and- and because I had 12 hours to think a day, I was mulling this over in my head.

    11. JR

      (laughs)

    12. RE

      Um, for me, it- it goes back to Tim Noakes' central governor theory?

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RE

      Um, looking at how fatigue is a- is an emotionally driven state that we use to pull that physiological handbrake. So, uh, you know, for those listening sort of 16 miles into a marathon, you might be saying, "No way, I can't keep putting one foot in front of the other. There's no way." Um, and then all of a sudden, 25 miles in, your family and friends are clapping you and you get that second wind and you start sprinting.

    15. JR

      Yes.

    16. RE

      Um, and for me, looking at that, the sort of central governor theory-I found that in complete exhaustion, like, when- when you absolutely have nothing left, you almost go into this feral state, you know? So like a- like- like an injured dog-

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

  12. 36:33 – 40:13

    Body breakdown: salt tongue, fused bedsheets, and the cost of constant exposure

    1. RE

      ... you know, where a lot of people will say, "Oh," you know, "remember why you started. Think of your family and friends." And I was like, "No, no, no." I was at a level of fatigue where I wasn't thinking about, you know, family and friends. It- I- I was thinking almost, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where it starts with just food, shelter, oxygen. I was at that sort of level, where there was sea ulcers. I mean, my neck's kinda healed now but, you know, there was times when chafing on my neck, my- my tongue was falling a- it's fine now, by the way, Joe. (laughs)

    2. JR

      Your tongue was falling apart?

    3. RE

      My tongue was f-

    4. JR

      From the s- salt water?

    5. RE

      Yeah. Yeah. And- and-

    6. JR

      Falling apart, like, how so?

    7. RE

      It- y- it's what is called salt tongue. And after 12 hours in the water every single day, um, you- your- your tongue would essentially start to disintegrate. So-

    8. JR

      Oh, Jesus.

    9. RE

      Yeah, nice. (laughs) So I was- I woke up and there was parts of my tongue on my pillow, and-

    10. JR

      Oh.

    11. RE

      Yeah. No, so (laughs) this is-

    12. JR

      Is there any concern that this is permanent, or it was permanent at the time? Were you concerned?

    13. RE

      A- a- absolutely. And- and I think that's-

    14. JR

      Oh, Jesus Christ, bro.

    15. RE

      ... that's- (laughs) that's-

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. RE

      But that's what goes back to that- that hierarchy of needs, where you're not thinking about family and friends, or what motivates you, and what, you know, you're... No, you're thinking, "I wanna keep my tongue." You know? You're like-

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. RE

      (laughs)

    20. JR

      Fuck, man.

    21. RE

      (laughs)

    22. JR

      Thi- 'cause no one has really... Has... Uh, people have gone on long swims before-

    23. RE

      (coughs)

    24. JR

      ... but has anybody done six months?

    25. RE

      (smacks lips) I don't think so. There- there, um, there's Ben Lecomte at the moment who's going across the Pacific, but he, uh, is using a snorkel, so he kind of-

    26. JR

      Oh, right.

    27. RE

      ... cleverly (laughs) -

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. RE

      ... thought about that, whereas for me, I- I thought, "No, this has to be done without a-"

    30. JR

      Properly. Were you thinking about the guy who's just doing the breast stroke-

  13. 40:13 – 42:20

    Finishing the loop: returning to the start, crowds, team credit, and post-expedition disorientation

    1. JR

      What was it like when you finished? What did it feel like when the last stroke, when you got out of the water-

    2. RE

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      ... and you're like, "Holy shit, I just swam for six months"?

    4. RE

      It was, yeah, it was- it was so strange because when we left in June, we came back obviously to the same point, and we left in the British summer, and everyone was on the beach, and- and then I came back round, people were putting up Christmas decorations, and I was like, "W-" I'd- I'd been gone for so long at sea.

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. RE

      It was just...

    7. JR

      That's so crazy.

    8. RE

      It...

    9. JR

      How many days was it total?

    10. RE

      157.

    11. JR

      Oh my God.

    12. RE

      Yeah, s-

    13. JR

      That is so insane.

    14. RE

      It just, so much change, and oh, here, yeah, here we go. That was the- the finish, so this is swimming back then.

    15. JR

      So this is you at the... Who are these people, these fucking hangers on, following you around, pretending they did it too?

    16. RE

      (laughs)

    17. JR

      "Oh, he's Ross."

    18. RE

      No, no, no, it's... I- I-

    19. JR

      "Ross, Ross is my friend."

    20. RE

      (laughs) So I felt that- that it was such a- a- a team effort. I'm-

    21. JR

      Look at all those people waiting for you.

    22. RE

      My legs were so shaky, Joe. I was, at this point I'm thinking, "Don't fall over. Don't fall over."

    23. JR

      Wow.

    24. RE

      Because it has, I mean, this is the thing, uh, I think I stumble in a little minute.

    25. JR

      That is such madness, man.

    26. RE

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      That is such madness, and you crossed the Red Bull finish line.

    28. RE

      I got a trident. That was pretty cool.

    29. JR

      Wow.

    30. RE

      That's at home at the moment.

  14. 42:20 – 55:15

    Escalating suffering culture: Barkley/Backyard ultras, adversity training, and endurance as spectacle

    1. JR

      And then it keeps going and going and going.Like, there's a race that Courtney Dauwalter, who's been a, um, a guest on the show before, she won the Moab 240, which is a 238-mile race through the Moab Mountains. And it's just an insane race. Not only did she win it, she won it by more than 10 hours ahead of the second place guy. And she's just a fucking straight savage. So, she recently entered a race and she came in second place. In this race, they would run for four miles in an hour, and then they would stop when the hour was over, they would stop, and then when the next hour started, they would run another four miles. Like, four-point something miles. And they would do it for six days.

    2. RE

      That's crazy.

    3. JR

      They did ... It was like the last man standing.

    4. RE

      That's crazy.

    5. JR

      And then at the very end, one person won. Like, it's like who's gonna drop out last? So, they just kept doing it. So, the guy who created this race, see if you can find anything on this guy-

    6. RE

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      ... because he's, he's apparently very sadistic.

    8. RE

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      And his idea was that people run these 100-mile races or a 50-mile race, and if you just finish, you feel like a winner. And he's like, "Well, bullshit." He goes, "There can't be a winner if, if somebody comes in first place and then you're, you're second place." You're not the winner.

    10. RE

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      It's like, there's one winner.

    12. RE

      Oh, Berkeley Marathons.

    13. JR

      Is that the guy?

    14. RE

      Yes.

    15. JV

      Yeah. He's apparently chain smokes too.

    16. RE

      He's ... He's amazing. So, this is the Berkeley Marathons. Do you know about this? Did you see last-

    17. JV

      It's the same guy. He ra- ... He created that race and this is another race he created.

    18. RE

      And he's created another one?

    19. JV

      Yeah.

    20. RE

      So, he's amazing. So, did you see, I think it was last year, uh, uh, Jamie, is it right that it's-

    21. JR

      What's the ... Berkeley Marathon? What is that?

    22. RE

      Is it the Berkeley or Barkley Marathon?

    23. JV

      Yeah, yeah, you got it.

    24. RE

      Barkley.

    25. JR

      Berkeley or Barkley?

    26. JV

      Uh ... (sighs)

    27. JR

      Is the Barkley the one that nobody could figure out how to-

    28. RE

      Yeah.

    29. JV

      Barkley, it's Barkley. Yeah, with an A.

    30. RE

      Barkley Marathons.

  15. 55:15 – 1:08:18

    From swimming to fighting: Khabib vs Conor, mental toughness in MMA, and the role of fatigue

    1. RE

      So to that point, you know, and a- again, I'm catching up on 157 days of UFC, so I was actually out at sea with, uh, McGregor and Khabib. But on that note, do you think he tapped premature? Do you think there was that-

    2. JR

      Oh, he went to sleep.

    3. RE

      McGregor went to sleep?

    4. JR

      Oh, that, in that fight.

    5. RE

      Yeah, he-

    6. JR

      I thought you meant Jon Fish and Josh Burkman.

    7. RE

      He just j- yeah, no, no, no. I mean it was a neck crank, right?

    8. JR

      Y- no, he did not tap premature. Um, he did not defend it, though.

    9. RE

      Okay.

    10. JR

      Here's the deal. He was done. He was beaten down. Khabib fucked him up. Khabib smashed him. But there was a lotta people that don't train, and this was very frustrating to me.

    11. RE

      Okay.

    12. JR

      There was many people that don't train that think that that was something that you shouldn't tap to.

    13. RE

      Right.

    14. JR

      They're, they're out of their fucking mind.

    15. RE

      Okay, okay.

    16. JR

      That is what's called a fulcrum choke.

    17. RE

      That's, okay, okay.

    18. JR

      And it's, it's not necessarily a choke, but it is, it chokes you, but it, it really feels like your fucking head's gonna pop off.

    19. RE

      Right.

    20. JR

      What he's doing is he's wrapping around the face. And you don't have to even go under the jaw.

    21. RE

      Right.

    22. JR

      You can get it on the chin, especially if you're as strong as Khabib. Then you clamp your hands together, and you're pressing your forearm-

    23. RE

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      ... against his back. So you've got this, and you got the forearm against his back, and you're doing this.

    25. RE

      It's just levers.

    26. JR

      And your fucking head is just like... (imitates choking) It's, and Khabib is so-

    27. RE

      The fight.

    28. JR

      ... strong. His gra- he's been grappling since he was a baby.

    29. RE

      Right.

    30. JR

      All of his muscles are designed to squeeze and crush and smash.

Episode duration: 2:52:15

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