Joe Rogan Experience #1208 - Jordan Peterson

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Three, two, one. Here…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Three, two, one. Here we are again.

   2. JPJordan Peterson0:06

      Hey, Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Hello, Jordan. (laughs)

   4. JPJordan Peterson0:08

      (laughs) How are you doing, man?

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      Good to see you, man. I'm doing great. You have, uh, the, the schedule that you have and the amount of energy and enthusiasm you maintain with the schedule i- is very remarkable. 'Cause you're not stopping. You're not slowing down. I mean, you've, you've had your foot on the gas for like two solid years now.

   6. JPJordan Peterson0:27

      Make hay while the sun shines.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      I guess so.

   8. JPJordan Peterson0:29

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      Is that what it is? Is that how you feel about it?

   10. JPJordan Peterson0:31

       Well, you know, when you have an opportunity that's completely preposterous-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       (laughs)

   12. JPJordan Peterson0:36

       ... you're a fool to take it for granted.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Yeah.

   14. JPJordan Peterson0:38

       You know?

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       I guess that's it, right?

   16. JPJordan Peterson0:39

       So, and s- yeah, so Tammy and I have been to 100 cities since January. So everywhere, you know? And part of what keeps us going... Well, first of all, I have a really good crew, you know? Like the CAA guys, they're really good. Live Nation's been really good. They make sure the theaters are smooth and, and we've had no problems at all. Um, and then I have lots of people who are helping me with my scheduling, and Tammy travels with me. And then the, the lectures themselves, well, I really like doing them, partly because I do a different lecture every night and so that keeps me sharp and it makes sure that I'm thinking about new things all the time and trying to formulate my thoughts more precisely. And they're also unbelievably positive, so that's also, that al- that's also something that makes it a lot easier to, to do.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:27

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JPJordan Peterson1:28

       Because, you know, I, I go to a city and there's 1,500 to 2,000 people waiting for me there, which is like staggering in and of itself wherever I go. And they're all there listening intently and, and it's, it's a sophisticated discussion, or at least as sophisticated as I can make it. And I'm communicating directly with the audience, and all the people are there to try to get their lives together. And so the, the, the feeling in the, in the hall is really, really positive. And then I usually talk to about 150 people afterwards and, you know, they're, they... All of them, all of them, well, many of them, you know, they just say hi and they're polite and we have a photograph and all that. But lots of them have stories about how they've been putting their lives together and they're thrilled to death about it, you know? That they're out of the hole they were in or they've started a new business or they've sold a new business or they just decided to get married or they're gonna have some kids or they've fixed up their relationship with their parents or they quit drinking or, and they're, they're not addicted. I talked to one guy in Europe. He'd stopped, he was, he was addicted, I don't remember what to, but it wasn't, it was something that wasn't good. He s- he'd stopped for nine months and got nine of his friends to quit too. So he comes up, he's just like bouncing, you know? He's so damn happy that his life is better. And not only that, that he had this additional positive effect on other people. So... And it's so fun because I have these conversations with people, they're brief, but they're very personal and they're very intense, you know, because they, they... You think, people have to trust you to tell you that their lives weren't going so well, and then they have to trust you even more to tell you that they're going better now because, of course, what you want when you tell someone that things are going better is you want real encouragement and real sense from the person you're talking to that they're happy for you. And I'm absolutely thrilled to hear these things. Like, I was in Whole Foods this morning. I w- I went down near where I'm staying, and two of the guys that work behind the meat counter came out to talk to me and... independently. And they'd both been reading my books and watching my lectures, and one of them said he had a seven-year-old son, he really wanted to do right by him. He was looking for ethical and moral guidance and, you know, he found the books really helpful and that it was helping him put his life together and... And so, c- our guy at the car rental place last night told me the same thing and, and so it's so exciting. It's so ridiculously exciting to go everywhere around the world and to go into airports or to walk down the street and have people come up and say, um, "I've been watching you on YouTube." They often mention you. "Uh, I've been listening to what you say. I've been developing a vision for my life. It's really helped me out a lot. Thanks a lot." And Jesus, like, to be able to have that happen, you know, time after time, day after day, all over the place, that's just absolutely... It makes going to 100 cities, like, c- continually, uh, energizing 'cause it's so positive. And so... And then there's all this weird crap in the press, you know, about my dangerous followers and all this alt-right nonsense. And it's so ridiculous, you know? I've talked to 250,000 people in, in, in seven months. We haven't had one incident that was negative in that entire time. Not one. Nothing. No misbehavior on anyone's part. We had one heckler who was obviously not a fan of mine, given that he was a heckler. That was it. Other than that, the audiences behave perfectly. They all dress up, they come in suits, which is really cool.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:52

       (laughs)

   20. JPJordan Peterson4:52

       A lot of the young guys, they dress up, so they have a little suit competition with me, which is quite fun. So that's an additional bonus. And yeah, it's, it's pretty damn good, Joe.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:02

       I think it's really fantastic, and I think what's going on is, uh, it makes me very optimistic because I think that one of the things that new media has provided is these new v- avenues for information to get out there. And these new things like these lecture circuits, when was the last time you saw public lecture circuits that were popular to the tune of thousands and thousands of people? I saw the ones that you and Sam Harris did on YouTube, and you know, Sam's doing them with a lot of other people as well.

   22. JPJordan Peterson5:31

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       You're doing them with a bunch of people, J- with Dave Rubin as well.

   24. JPJordan Peterson5:34

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:34

       These are, the... I mean, this is a very unique thing.

   26. JPJordan Peterson5:37

       That's for sure.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:38

       And also this desire to understand new paths of behavior and patterns of thinking, and that these are corrective paths and patterns that can lead you to a more fulfilled and happier life.

   28. JPJordan Peterson5:50

       Yep.

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:50

       And, and recognize the pitfalls of certain types of behavior that people just fall into.

   30. JPJordan Peterson5:55

       Yeah.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Don't you think, uh,…

   1. JPJordan Peterson15:00

      and I really believe that.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      Don't you think, uh, uh, when things are happening, like something like Nazi Germany, I- I- I would imagine that during that time, the people that were not in support of it felt helpless. Whether you're- you're in Germany, you're a part of this country, this country is turning towards this horrible situation where Jewish people are being put on trains and, you know, uh, uh, i- i- uh, the people that didn't speak out in that-

   3. JPJordan Peterson15:27

      Eh...

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:27

      I don't necessarily know if it's a lack of discipline or just complete fear and paralysis-

   5. JPJordan Peterson15:33

      Oh, it's- it's-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:33

      ... and paralysis and un- un-

   7. JPJordan Peterson15:34

      Well, it's, uh, fear for sure. I mean, you- you-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:36

      No knowledge of how to deal with it or what to do-

   9. JPJordan Peterson15:38

      Well, disbelief too. Like-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:39

       ... and wanting to protect your family as well-

   11. JPJordan Peterson15:41

       Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, man.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       ... so not wanting to step out of line.

   13. JPJordan Peterson15:42

       Oh, absolutely. All the-

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:44

       Yeah.

   15. JPJordan Peterson15:44

       Well, that's the thi- The problem is that if you're gonna forestall that sort of thing, you have to do it early.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:49

       Right.

   17. JPJordan Peterson15:50

       You know, 'cause the longer you wait, the higher the price you pay for it, so-

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:53

       But isn't it ha- It's hard to take that jump early because you're not exactly sure where it's going.

   19. JPJordan Peterson15:58

       That's true.

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       Yeah.

   21. JPJordan Peterson15:58

       And you're e- And well, and you're also likely to be jumped on.

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       Yes.

   23. JPJordan Peterson16:01

       I mean, you can see that happening in our own culture, you know?

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:04

       Yes.

   25. JPJordan Peterson16:04

       You- you make a mistake on Twitter or even something that isn't a mistake and, you know, you can pay a... Well, what feels to be a pretty high price.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       Right.

   27. JPJordan Peterson16:11

       Now, whether it is a high price or not is hard to tell 'cause Twitter is so weirdly fictional, you know? It's-

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Yeah.

   29. JPJordan Peterson16:17

       ... it's so hard to- to- to get your- to get a grasp on exactly what's going on. But-

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Well, it's i- It's also your comprehension of y- y- what- what is the- your emotional reaction to people that you don't know being mean to you. Like, this is like, what-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   There's always a striving…

   1. JPJordan Peterson30:00

      our spirit, let's say, has the capacity to, to confront that and to fix it, like psychologically, so, so to confront it courageously, to be able to bear up under that if you do it voluntarily, but also to address it. Not only to deal with it psychologically but to deal with it practically, and that we could make things much better.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:19

      There's always a striving towards utopia, right? Like this is the ultimate goal that if, if you, you ask people, "What would you like out of civilization?" "Well, I'd like everyone to be happy and everyone to get along and there to be no war, nothing, no suffering, no anything." But-... in order to really truly learn about yourself and about life-

   3. JPJordan Peterson30:37

      Hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:37

      ... you have to overcome adversity-

   5. JPJordan Peterson30:38

      Hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:38

      ... you have to experience things.

   7. JPJordan Peterson30:40

      Hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:40

      And in... And I firmly believe that in order to truly appreciate love, you have to understand or really have felt hate.

   9. JPJordan Peterson30:46

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       And to really appreciate camaraderie, you have to feel loneliness.

   11. JPJordan Peterson30:51

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:51

       So, this is just a part of being a person.

   13. JPJordan Peterson30:53

       Hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       For whatever reason, like-

   15. JPJordan Peterson30:55

       Yeah. Well, maybe... See, the other thing that I've been thinking a- along the same lines is that, you know, it isn't... So, in the, in the biblical stories, in, in the Abrahamic stories, for example, Abraham basically hangs around his dad's tent till he's, like, 80. He's one of these guys that fails to launch, you know, in a big way.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JPJordan Peterson31:11

       And God eventually gets sick and tired of him, like, you know, playing video games in his basement and says, "Get the hell out there into the world and, and have a life." And so he does. He leaves his, his father's tent and his, his community and his, and his country, which is what he's commanded to do. And then he goes out and has an adventure. But, you know, the first thing he encounters is a famine, and then he encounters a tyranny, and then he encounters a, a bunch of people in the tyrannical state that wanna take his wife. And so you can imagine that Abraham's response to that is like, "It was a hell of a lot better sitting in my dad's tent playing video games." But what's cool about that story, what I realized when I was doing the lectures on it last year was that that was a call to adventure. You know, and, and that the right way of conceptualizing what we're talking about isn't that utopia would be a place where everyone was happy. Because, because... And I think because of what you just laid out is you need that polarity, you know, and people need a load and we need adversity and we need difficulty. We need all of that. Um, so maybe what you want is an adventure, the greatest adventure that you could have. And that would involve, you know, something to push against. It would-

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:16

       Yes.

   19. JPJordan Peterson32:16

       ... it would involve real challenge. And so just a, a... See, D- Dostoevsky knew this because when he wrote Notes From Underground, which I would highly recommend to everyone who's listening, it's a great book and it's a very short book. He, he criticized socialist utopia back in, like, 1860, way, way before it became the sort of widespread idea that, that it is now. And what Dostoevsky said was that, well, human beings are these very peculiar creatures and if you gave us a utopia so that we had nothing to do but eat cake and busy ourself with the continuation of the species, that was, that was his line, um, that the first thing we do is smash it all to bits just so that something unexpected and, and, and troublesome would happen because we're built for adventure and not for peace and happiness.

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:02

       Well, we're designed to overcome-

   21. JPJordan Peterson33:03

       Hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:03

       ... the natural world.

   23. JPJordan Peterson33:04

       Hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:05

       The natural world is filled with that.

   25. JPJordan Peterson33:06

       Hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:06

       The natural world is filled with things trying to eat things.

   27. JPJordan Peterson33:09

       Hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:09

       And this is just... E- everywhere you look, that's all you observe. You observe predators and prey and animals eating vegetables, and that's it.

   29. JPJordan Peterson33:15

       Hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:16

       And I think that this, uh, this concept of overcoming adversity is so hu- it's so human, it's so a part of what we are that I wanna bring it back to you because one of the things that I've been considering is that... I've said this many times and I just had a conversation with my good friend Steve Rinella the other day where he brought it up independently. He said, "I think Jordan Peterson is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted guy in the world." He's like, "People are always, like, not just misinterpreting, but misstating what you believe and misstating what you say." This opposition to you, this, uh... I mean, like we were talking about this GQ interview-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      50s, who becomes famous out of nowhere and doesn't just becomes fame- doesn't just become famous, but becomes this culturally significant sort of lightning rod. I mean, I, that's how I, I view you and a lot of these talks that you're doing, a lot of these, these debates like you're having with this woman at GQ or some of your, your interviews, what you're doing is you're expressing yourself in, uh, a brave but very controversial way. And a lot of people are paying attention to this. But then you're backing it up with your research, you're backing it up with real science. You're backing up with, uh, a tremendous amount of history of, of, of the, the human race and of religion and of, uh, the, the scientific, uh, studies that have been done that show correlations between different types of behaviors and human beings. And all this is rich. It's, it's very, it's very rewarding if you could take it all in. But when it goes against what people have, their preconceived notions or their own set of beliefs that they're bringing to, to your conversations and to your debates, then it creates this hostile, uh, battle where what you're saying is, is, is very contrary to w- the way they've been living their life or the-

   2. JPJordan Peterson46:12

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan46:12

      ... these preset patterns of behavior.

   4. JPJordan Peterson46:14

      Really saw this in Scand- Really saw that in Scandinavia.

   5. JRJoe Rogan46:16

      Scandinavia.

   6. JPJordan Peterson46:16

      Yeah. Well, I, I was there. I went to Stockholm twice and Oslo twice and Helsinki twice and, and, and Copenhagen once in the last month, and I spent quite a bit of, did a lot of interviews, um, and a lot of discussion about the so-called gender paradox. That's a very interesting thing, 'cause it's really put their tails in a knot in Scandinavia. And, and that makes sense, because the Scandinavians are gonna have to deal with this first, because they've gone the farthest down the road for, like, making their society gender equal.

   7. JRJoe Rogan46:50

      But explain that to people-

   8. JPJordan Peterson46:51

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan46:51

      ... if they don't might know what you're-

   10. JPJordan Peterson46:52

       I will. I will. Okay, so, so imagine, first of all, that there's two kinds of equality that you might pursue. One would be equality of opportunity. And so that would mean that, um, you know, there's, there's wide range of talent across people regardless of their type, whatever that might be, sex, gender, race, ethnicity. There's, there's talent distributed everywhere. And it's a kind of a truism, and I would say a, a truism of the West in the deepest sense, that each of the individuals within those groups should be put in a position where they, their talents are ... They're encouraged to manifest those talents, partly because that would be good for them spiritually and psychologically, but also because that would be of obvious benefit to the community. Right? I mean, talent's rare, which people don't understand. There's lots of different kinds of talent, but it's, but in each domain, it's rare. And so it's to everyone's benefit to exploit talented people to the maximal possible degree. So even if you're just selfish, you'd wanna push for equality of opportunity, because the more talented people there are out there, the more cool stuff you get to have, and hopefully the, the, the more diverse and interesting your life is. So, so you can pursue equality of opportunity, um, policies, and the Scandinavians have done that, especially trying to knock down barriers t- for women in the workplace. And by all accounts, by all standard theories, the Scandinavian countries and places like, uh, like h- like the Netherlands, Canada too, to a slightly lesser degree, um, have done a, have gone farther than any other countries in pursuing those, um, policies.... uh, okay. And, and, and part of the consequence of that is that some of the differences between men and women have been, um, minimized. So obviously, there's far more women in the workplace than there were 40 years ago. And in many occupations, there's actually dominance by women. There's dominance in the universities, there's dominance in the healthcare fields. And so women have poured into the workplace and hypothetically, there's problems with that because it's put a lot of stress on family structure. But hypothetically, that's for the best and... because it gives people a broader range of choices and it gives everyone access to more talent. So... and then also, if you look around the world, you see that one of the best predictors of e- of the probability of economic development in developing countries is their attitude... is the attitude in those countries towards equal rights for women, and it looks causal. The more positively the country is predisposed to female rights, the more likely they are to develop economically. And maybe that's because that indicates that they're open to new ideas or something like that, or open to transformation. So... okay, so that's one kind of equality. Open up the playing field so that everybody has a chance to compete and cooperate and lan- and land where they will. But then the other kind of equality is equality of outcome, so... and that's often described as equity in today's language. And so the ultimate equity utopia would be take every job, every conceivable kind of job, and then stratify that by every conceivable level of authority within every job. And then ensure that every single category of person is represented in precise, uh, proportion to their, to their prevalence in the population. So every job should be 50% women and 50% men, and say 13% non-Western ethnic minority and whatever that happens to be, and then you could break that down. And so... and otherwise there's evidence of systemic prejudice. Okay now, first thing to say about that is that's impossible, and the reason it's impossible is because there's no limit to the number of ways that you can categorize people into groups. So you know, you, you know about sex and ethnicity and race, maybe those are the obvious ones, but now you have gender and then you have ethnicity and, you know, and then there's attractiveness and intelligence and temperament and, and height-

   11. JRJoe Rogan50:50

       And age.

   12. JPJordan Peterson50:50

       ... and age and, and, and socioeconomic background and I mean, let's say there's 20, but there's a lot more than that. There's no possible way that you could ever regulate a society so tightly that every single one of those groups was equally represented in every single one of those occupations at every single level of the hierarchy. That is impossible.

   13. JRJoe Rogan51:12

       Yeah, so they wanna concentrate on the significant ones which are men and women and race.

   14. JPJordan Peterson51:15

       Well, yeah, but who's to say those are the significant ones?

   15. JRJoe Rogan51:18

       Right.

   16. JPJordan Peterson51:18

       That's the other thing. I... it isn't even obvious that they are because I would say that, like a more significant one is cognitive ability 'cause that's a way bigger predictor of long-term life success than sex or race. So I don't even think that we've necessarily identified the canonical groups. We've just decided that gender and race are the... maybe they're the most obvious.

   17. JRJoe Rogan51:37

       Right. But isn't there a problem is that people don't... th- that what, what they don't do is they don't take in, in terms of cognitive ability, they don't get on a team. They don't get on like... the- there's people that are sexist-

   18. JPJordan Peterson51:49

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan51:49

       ... but there's... it's very rare that someone is elitist in terms of their cognitive ability.

   20. JPJordan Peterson51:55

       Well, hard to say, Joe. I mean, I think one of the reasons that-

   21. JRJoe Rogan51:58

       I wouldn't say elitist. Prejudiced is a better word.

   22. JPJordan Peterson52:01

       I don't know. It's... I mean, you could be right but look, I think one of the reasons that... like if you... here's something that's kind of peculiar-

   23. JRJoe Rogan52:07

       It actually doesn't even make sense now that I'm thinking about it. Of course, they are.

   24. JPJordan Peterson52:09

       Well, it's... well, there's one thing that's quite peculiar about the United States in that regard is like most working class people, let's say, are far more irritated with the intellectual elite than they are with the wealthy elite and that's because they think they could become wealthy, and they could, but they don't think they could become part of the intellectual elite. And it isn't obvious to me that the intellectual elite, so those would be the liberal left-leaning types that dominate the media and academia, are particularly, um, positive in their, in their attitudes towards the typical working class person. I think they're prejudiced and elitist. I do believe that that's the case, and I think they're also, um, what would you call it? Patronizing. And I think that the typical working class person, say, who voted for Trump is very, very sensitive to that. And so they're much more concerned with the 1% who are the cognitive elite than they are the 1% who are the economic elite because at least they think that's a game they could play. So anyways, it-

   25. JRJoe Rogan53:10

       But isn't that also because there's caricatures, right, of the, the 1% of the economic elite, you just think of people that are in these lofty positions that are in control of the financial institutions, but the 1% of the intellectual elite you think of in terms of like some of the more preposterous things you're hearing outta universities now and safe spaces and-

   26. JPJordan Peterson53:29

       Oh yeah, there's that too.

   27. JRJoe Rogan53:30

       Yeah.

   28. JPJordan Peterson53:30

       And that... there's that too.

   29. JRJoe Rogan53:31

       The things that, that pe-

   30. JPJordan Peterson53:31

       There's no-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:13:39

   And what are you,…

   1. JPJordan Peterson1:00:00

      are not huge. So with agreeableness for example, if you took the average man ... If you took a typical man and a typical woman out of the population just randomly and you had to bet that the woman was more aggressive than the man, you'd be wrong 60% of the time. So there's quite a bit of overlap, right? Because you'd be right 40% of the time but the problem is that a lot of selection takes place at the extremes. Maybe you're only concerned about disagreeable people when they become violent and maybe it's only the one in 50 most disagreeable person who's violent and they're all men. So you can have quite a bit of similarity at, at the average level and big differences at the extremes and the extremes is where people do things like, like employment selection. So the biggest difference that's been discovered between men and women and this is the one that gets biggest in the Scandinavian countries is interest. Men are more interested in things and women are more interested in people and it's a big difference. It's one full standard deviation and so what that means is that if you are a man-... you would have to be more interested in people than 85% of men to be as interested in people as the 50th percentile woman. And you'd have to be more interested in things than 85% of women to be as interested in things as the typical man.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:25

      And what are you, how do you define things? Objects?

   3. JPJordan Peterson1:01:27

      Gadgets.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

      Okay.

   5. JPJordan Peterson1:01:28

      Gadgets.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

      Gadgets?

   7. JPJordan Peterson1:01:29

      Gadgets, things.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:30

      Oh, okay.

   9. JPJordan Peterson1:01:30

      Non, non, non-animate things.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:32

       Cars?

   11. JPJordan Peterson1:01:33

       Car, yeah, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

       Yeah.

   13. JPJordan Peterson1:01:34

       Tools.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

       Yeah.

   15. JPJordan Peterson1:01:35

       You know.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:36

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JPJordan Peterson1:01:36

       Technology.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

       Right.

   19. JPJordan Peterson1:01:37

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

       Right.

   21. JPJordan Peterson1:01:38

       STEM fields.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:39

       Yeah.

   23. JPJordan Peterson1:01:39

       Because the other thing that's happened is that the more egalitarian the society, the fewer women go into the STEM fields.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:45

       Hmm.

   25. JPJordan Peterson1:01:45

       The fewer.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       That's interesting.

   27. JPJordan Peterson1:01:47

       Yeah. (laughs) Okay, so, so now this unravels in a big way. It's like thi- this is a hugely, uh, relevant issue politically, because it means that you cannot have equality of opportunity and equality of outcome at the same time. It's not possible, because as you make your society more egalitarian and you open up the opportunity for equality of outcome, you increase how different men and women are, are, and that changes their occupational choice. So if men are more interested in things, which they are by a substantial margin, then way more of them are gonna be engineers.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:26

       (smacks lips) Wouldn't that possibly support this idea that an enforced model of, of, of equality would allow people to be themselves more?

   29. JPJordan Peterson1:02:38

       Well-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:38

       I mean, this is almost what you're saying.

Episode duration: 2:55:03