Joe Rogan Experience #1211 - Dr. Ben Goertzel

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Boom. Hello, Ben. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Boom. Hello, Ben.

   2. BGDr. Ben Goertzel0:08

      Hey, there.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      Good to see you, man.

   4. BGDr. Ben Goertzel0:10

      Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Thanks for doing this.

   6. BGDr. Ben Goertzel0:13

      Yeah, yeah. Thank, thank, thanks for having me. I've been, I've been looking at, at some of your shows in, in the last few... last few days, just to, to get a sense of how you're thinking about AI and-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      Th-

   8. BGDr. Ben Goertzel0:24

      ... crypto and the various other things I- I'm involved in, and it, it's been interesting.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      Well, I've been following you as well. I've been, uh, paying attention to a lot of your lectures and talks and different things you've done over the last couple of days as well, getting ready for this. It's, uh, AI is, uh, either people are really excited about it or they're really terrified of it. Those are the sort of... It seems to be the two responses. Either people have this dismal view of these robots taking over the world, or they think it's going to be some amazing sort of symbiotic relationship with that we have with these things that's gonna evolve human beings past the, the monkey stage that we're at right now.

   10. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:00

       Yeah. And I, I, I tend to be on the latter, more positive side-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       Good.

   12. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:05

       ... of, of, of this dichotomy. But, I, I think one thing that has struck me in recent years is many people are now, you know, mentally confronting all the issues surrounding AI for the first time. And I, I mean, I've been working on AI for three decades, and I first started thinking about AI when I was a little kid in the early, late 60s and early 70s when I saw AIs and robots on the original Star Trek. So, I guess I've had a lot of cycles to process the positives and, and negatives of it. Whereas now, like suddenly mo- most of the world is thinking through all this for the first, for the first time. And, you know, when you first wrap your brain around the idea that there may be creatures 10,000 or a million times smarter than, than human beings, at first this is a bit of a shocker, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:58

       Yeah.

   14. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:58

       And, and then, I mean, it takes a while to internalize this into your world view.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:02

       Well, it's... That there's also, I think, there's a problem with the term artificial intelligence, 'cause it's, it's, it's intelligent. It's there. It's a real thing.

   16. BGDr. Ben Goertzel2:13

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       Like, it's not artificial. It's not like a fake diamond or a fake Ferrari. It's a real thing. And it, it's very-

   18. BGDr. Ben Goertzel2:20

       It's not a great term, and-

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       Right.

   20. BGDr. Ben Goertzel2:21

       ... there's been many attempts to replace it with synthetic intelligence for, for example.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       Hmm. Right.

   22. BGDr. Ben Goertzel2:28

       But for better or worse, like, AI is there. It's part of the-

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:32

       Yeah.

   24. BGDr. Ben Goertzel2:32

       ... popular imagination. It seems... It's an imperfect word, but it's, it's not going away.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:38

       Well, I, I... My question is, like, are we married to this idea of intelligence and of life being biological, being carbon-based tissue and cells and blood and... Or, or insects, or mammals, or fish? Are, are we married to that too much? Do you think that it's entirely possible that what human beings are doing and what people that are at the, the tip of AI right now that are really pushing the technology, what they're doing is really creating a new life form? That it's, it's going to be a new thing, that just the same way we recognize wasps and buffalos-

   26. BGDr. Ben Goertzel3:14

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:15

       ... and artificial intelligence is just gonna be a life form that emerges from the creativity and ingenuity of human beings?

   28. BGDr. Ben Goertzel3:20

       Well, in-in-deed. So, I mean, I've long been, uh, an advocate of a philosophy I think of as, as patternism. Like, it's the pattern of organization that appears to be the, the critical thing, and the min- ... The... You know, the individual cells, and going down further, like the molecules and particles in our body are, are turning over all the time. So it's not-

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:44

       Hmm.

   30. BGDr. Ben Goertzel3:44

       ... the specific combination of elementary particles which makes me who I am or makes you who you are. It's the pattern by which they're organized and the patterns by which they change over time. So it... I mean, if we can create digital systems or quantum computers or femto computers or whatever it is manifesting the patterns of organization that constitute intelligence, I mean, then, then there you are. There, there, there is intelligence, right? So that, that's not to say that, you know, consciousness and experience is just about patterns of organization. There may be more dimensions to it. But when, when you look at what constitutes intelligence, thinking, cognition, problem-solving, you know, it's the pattern of organization, not, not the specific material as, as, as far as we can tell. So, we can see no reason, based on all the science that we know so far, that you couldn't make an intelligent system out of some other form of matter rather than the, the specific types of atoms and molecules that, that, that make up human beings, and it seems that we're, we're well on the way to being able to do so.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Is the issue that…

   1. BGDr. Ben Goertzel15:00

      on- on the planet, even while, in some ways, going- going beyond ev- everything that- that we are, right? And there can't be any guarantees about something like this. On the other hand, humanity has really never had any guarantees about anything anyway, right? I mean, since- since- since- since we created civilization, we've been leaping into the unknown one time after the other in- in a somewhat conscious and self-aware way about it, from, you know, agriculture, to language, to math, to the Industrial Revolution. We're leaping into the unknown all the time, which is part of why we're where we are today instead of just another animal species, right? So we can't have a guarantee that AGIs, artificial general intelligences, we create are going to do what we consider the right thing given our current value systems. O- o- on the other hand, I suspect we can bias the odds in the favor of- of human values and- and culture, and that's something I've- I've put a lot of thought and work into alongside the, you know, the basic algorithms of- of artificial cognition.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:17

      Is the issue that the initial creation would be subject to our programming, but that it could perhaps program something more efficient and design something? Like, if you build creativity...

   3. BGDr. Ben Goertzel16:28

      Well, certainly.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:28

      ... into artificial general intelligence, right.

   5. BGDr. Ben Goertzel16:29

      I mean, you have to. I mean, general- generalization is about creativity, right?

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:34

      Right. Yeah. But is the issue that it would choose to not accept our values, which it might find...

   7. BGDr. Ben Goertzel16:41

      Well, clearly, we'll choose not to accept our values.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:43

      Right.

   9. BGDr. Ben Goertzel16:43

      And- and we want it to choose not to accept all of our values.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       Right.

   11. BGDr. Ben Goertzel16:47

       So it- it's more a matter of whether the ongoing creation evolution of new values occurs with some continuity and respect for the previous ones. So I mean, uh, with... I have four human kids now. One is a baby, but the other three are adults, right? And with each of them, I took the approach of trying to teach the kids what my values were, not just by preaching at them, but by entering with them...

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:11

       Sure.

   13. BGDr. Ben Goertzel17:11

       ... in- into shared situations. But then, you know when your kids grow up, they're gonna go in their own different directions, right? And- and...

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:19

       Right. But these are humans, right?

   15. BGDr. Ben Goertzel17:20

       But you... But...

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       They all have the same sort of biological needs, which is one of the reasons...

   17. BGDr. Ben Goertzel17:24

       M- mostly.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       ... why we have these desires...

   19. BGDr. Ben Goertzel17:25

       Right. But- but...

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:26

       ... in the first place.

   21. BGDr. Ben Goertzel17:26

       Yeah, there still is an analogy. I- I think the AIs that we create, you can think of as- as our mind children, and we're starting them off with our culture and values, if- if we do it properly, or at least with a certain subset of the whole diverse self-contradictory mess of human culture and values.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:47

       Mm-hmm.

   23. BGDr. Ben Goertzel17:47

       But you know they're going to evolve in a- in a different direction, but you want that evolution to take place in a reflective and- and- and caring way, rather than a heedless way. 'Cause if- if you think about it, the average human a thousand years ago, or even 50 years ago, would have thought you and me were, like, hopelessly immoral miscreants who had abandoned all the valuable thing- things in life, right? I mean...

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:12

       Just 'cause of your hat? (laughs)

   25. BGDr. Ben Goertzel18:13

       Uh, my- my- my- my hat...

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:15

       The long hair.

   27. BGDr. Ben Goertzel18:15

       I mean, I'm- I'm an... I'm an infidel, right? I don't... I don't... I haven't gone to church, uh, ever, I- I- I- I guess.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:22

       (laughs)

   29. BGDr. Ben Goertzel18:22

       I mean, my- my- my mother is lesbian, right? I mean, there- there's all- all these things that we take for granted now...

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       Right.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Well we found that…

   1. BGDr. Ben Goertzel30:00

      and- and unapologetic, right? So it's a new like military industrial advertising complex which is- is guiding the evolution of the global brain on- on the planet, which ...

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      Well we found that with this past election, right? With, uh, all the ...

   3. BGDr. Ben Goertzel30:16

      Yeah. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:16

      ... intrusion by foreign entities trying to influence the election, that they've ... th- these giant houses set up to write bad stories about whoever they don't want to be, uh, in office.

   5. BGDr. Ben Goertzel30:29

      Yeah, in a way that's almost a red herring, but it ... I mean the Russian stuff is almost a red herring. But it revealed what the processes ...... are, which, which are used to program-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:41

      Yeah. How is it also red herring?

   7. BGDr. Ben Goertzel30:42

      Oh, be- because I think the... whatever programming of Americans' minds is done by the Russians is minicu- minuscule compared to the programming of Americans' minds by (laughs) -

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:52

      Americans.

   9. BGDr. Ben Goertzel30:52

      ... by, by the American-

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       Yeah.

   11. BGDr. Ben Goertzel30:53

       ... American...

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:54

       Sure.

   13. BGDr. Ben Goertzel30:54

       ... corporate and government elite, right? So... (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:56

       But it's fascinating that anybody's even jumping in, as well as the American elite.

   15. BGDr. Ben Goertzel31:01

       Yeah. Sure. It's, it's, it's...

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:02

       Yeah. It all looks weird.

   17. BGDr. Ben Goertzel31:02

       It's an... It's, it's interesting, and if you look at what's happening in China, that's like...

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       Yeah.

   19. BGDr. Ben Goertzel31:08

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're, they're way better at it than, th- th- than w- than we are, right?

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       Well, it's much more horrific, right? And that's one of the reasons...

   21. BGDr. Ben Goertzel31:14

       Well, it's more... it's more professional, it's more polished, it's more centralized.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       Yeah.

   23. BGDr. Ben Goertzel31:21

       On the other hand, for almost everyone in China, China's a very good place to live. And, you know, the level of improvement in that country in the last 30 years has just been astounding, right?

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       Right.

   25. BGDr. Ben Goertzel31:33

       Like, you... I mean, you can't, you can't argue with how much better it's gotten there since Deng Xiaoping took over.

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:39

       So is that because of-

   27. BGDr. Ben Goertzel31:39

       It's, it's tremendous.

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:40

       ... because they're not... They, they've embraced capitalism to a certain extent?

   29. BGDr. Ben Goertzel31:44

       They've created their own unique system.

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:46

       Right.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. BGDr. Ben Goertzel45:00

      is not large at this present moment.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BGDr. Ben Goertzel45:02

      Although, that's a beautiful and amazing area for invention and innovation and creativity. So, I think what's driving our rapid push toward building AI, I mean, it's not just our, our creative drive. It's, it's the fact there's tremendous economic value, military value, and, and human value. I mean, curing diseases, teaching kids.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:24

      Yeah.

   5. BGDr. Ben Goertzel45:24

      There's tremendous value in almost everything that's important to human beings in, in building AI, right? So you put that together with our drive to create and innovate, and this becomes an almost unstoppable force within, within human society. And what we've seen in the last, you know, three to five years is suddenly, you know, national leaders and titans of industry and even, like, pop stars, right? They've woken up to the concept that, wow, smarter and smarter AI is real, and this is gonna get better and better, like, within years to decades, not centuries to, to millennia. So, now the cat's out of the bag. Nobody's gonna put it back, and it's about, you know, how can we direct it in the most beneficial possible way? And as you say, it doesn't have to be just one possible way, right? Like, what-

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:16

      Right.

   7. BGDr. Ben Goertzel46:16

      ... what I look forward to personally is bifurcating myself into an array of, of possible Bens. Like, uh, I'd like to let one copy of me fuse itself with a superhuman AI mind and, you know, b- become, become a, a, a God-

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:30

      A Ben God.

   9. BGDr. Ben Goertzel46:30

      ... or something beyond a God. And I wouldn't even be myself.

   10. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       Beyond a God?

   11. BGDr. Ben Goertzel46:34

       I wouldn't even be myself anymore, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:36

       Right.

   13. BGDr. Ben Goertzel46:36

       I mean, you, you would lose all concepts of, of human self and identity, but-

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:40

       But what would be the point of even holding to any of it?

   15. BGDr. Ben Goertzel46:42

       Yeah. Well, that's-

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:44

       I mean, if you're-

   17. BGDr. Ben Goertzel46:44

       ... that's for the future. That's for the mega Ben to decide, right?

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:47

       Right, mega Ben.

   19. BGDr. Ben Goertzel46:47

       Yeah, yeah. On the other hand, I'd like to let one of me remain in human form, you know, get, get, get rid of, uh, death and disease and, uh, psychological issues and, and just live, live happily forever, you know, in, in the people zoo watched over by the machines of love and grace, right? So I mean, you, you can have... It doesn't have to be either/or, because on- once, once you can scan your brain and body and 3D print new copies of yourself, you could have multiple of you explore different scenarios.

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:16

       Right, but isn't that a giant resource hog? I mean, that's-

   21. BGDr. Ben Goertzel47:17

       There's a lot of mass energy in the universe.

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:20

       In the universe? Okay, that's assuming that we can escape this planet. Because if you're, if you're talking about just people with money cloning themselves-

   23. BGDr. Ben Goertzel47:27

       Well, that's ... If, if you're gonna make a c-

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:27

       ... w- could you live in a world with a billion Donald Trumps? Because, like-

   25. BGDr. Ben Goertzel47:31

       Uh...

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:31

       ... literally w- that's what we're talking about. We're talking about wealthy people-

   27. BGDr. Ben Goertzel47:33

       You could play whack-a-Trump. Yeah, right. Yeah, okay.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:35

       ... but wealthy people being able to reproduce themselves, and just-

   29. BGDr. Ben Goertzel47:37

       Oh.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:38

       ... having this idea that they would like their ego to exist in multiple different forms, whether it's some super symbiote form that's connected to artificial intelligence, or some biological form that's immortal, or some other form that st- is, stands just as a, uh, a normal human being as we know it in 2018. If you have multiple versions of yourself over and over and over again like that, that's where you're, where you're talking about-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Uh-huh. …

   1. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:00:00

      decision of all the participants. Then where cryptography comes in is when I vote, I don't have to say, "Yeah, this is Ben Goertzel voting for this update to be accepted or not." It's just ID number 1357264.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

      Uh-huh.

   3. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:00:13

      And then encryption is used to make sure that, you know, it's, it's the same guy voting every time that, that, that it, it claims to be with- without needing, like, your, your passport number or something, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

      But what's ironic about it is it's probably one of the best ways ever conceived to actually vote in this country.

   5. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:00:31

      Yeah. Sure. It would be-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:33

      I mean, it is kind of ironic, right?

   7. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:00:34

      There's a lot of applications for it that, you know, the, the, the, that's, that- that's right. So th- there's, so th- that, I mean, that's the core mechanism, though where the blockchain comes from is like a data structure where to store the data in this distributed database, it's stored in, in a chain of blocks, where each block contains data. The thing is, not every so-called blockchain system even uses a chain of blocks now. Like, some use a, a tree or a graph of blocks or something, so...

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

      Is it a bad term?

   9. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:01:05

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

       Or is there a better term?

   11. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:01:05

       I mean, it's, it's an all right term. It-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

       Is it like AI? Like, just one of those terms we're stuck with?

   13. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:01:11

       Yeah, yeah. It's one o-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:11

       Yeah.

   15. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:01:11

       ... it's one of those terms we're stuck with, even though it's not quite technically, not quite technically accurate. And I mean, anymore, I mean, 'cause w- w- what... I don't know another buzzword for it, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       Right.

   17. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:01:22

       Wh- wh- what it is, is a, it's a distributed ledger with encryption and decentralized control. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

       Yeah.

   19. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:01:28

       And blockchain is the buzzword that's come about for that. Now, what, what got me interested in blockchain really is this decentralized control aspect. So my, my, my wife, who I've been with for 10 years now, she dug up recently something I'd forgotten, which is a web page I'd made in 1995-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

       Wow.

   21. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:01:46

       ... like a long time ago, where I'd said, "Hey, I'm gonna run for president on the decentralization platform," right? (laughs) ... which I'd completely forgotten that- that-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:55

       (laughs)

   23. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:01:55

       ... crazy idea. I, I, I was very young then. I had no idea what an annoying job being president would be, right? But, but (laughs) the, so the, the idea of decentralized control seemed very important to me back then, which is well before Bitcoin was invented, 'cause I could see, you know, a global brain is evolving on the planet, involving humans, computers, communication devices, and we don't want this global brain to be controlled by, by a small elite. We want the global brain to be controlled in a, in a decentralized way. So-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:26

       Right.

   25. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:02:27

       ... so that, that's really the, the beauty of this, uh, blockchain infrastructure, and what, what got me interested in the practical technologies of blockchain was really when Ethereum came out and you had the notion of a smart contract, which-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:42

       What's Ethereum?

   27. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:02:44

       Ethereum, yeah, so-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:45

       What is that?

   29. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:02:46

       Well, so the first blockchain technology was Bitcoin, right?

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:50

       Mm-hmm.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:23:35

   Right. …

   1. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:15:00

      decentralized platform in which AIs can talk to other AIs and... you know, like ants in a colony, group together to form smarter and smarter AI. Then we're spinning off a company called the Singularity Studio, which will use this decentralized platform to help big companies integrate AI into their operations. So with the Singularity Studio company, we wanna get all these big companies using the AI tools in the SingularityNET platform, and then we wanna drive, you know, massive usage of, of blockchain in, in the SingularityNET that, that way. So that's... if, if we're successful with what we're doing, this will be, you know, within a year from now or something, by far the biggest usage of blockchain out- outside of financial exchange, is our use of blockchain within SingularityNET for AI. Basically for customers to get the AI services that they need for their businesses and then for AIs to transact with other AIs, paying other AIs for doing services for them. 'Cause this, this, this, I think, is, is the path forward. It's like a society and economy of minds. It's not like one monolithic AI.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:16:13

      Right.

   3. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:16:13

      It's a whole bunch of AIs created by different people all over the world, which not only are in the marketplace providing services to customers, but each AI is asking questions of each other and then rating each other of how good they are sending data to each other and paying each other for their services. So this, this like network of AIs can emerge an intelligence on the whole network level, as well as there being intelligence in e- in each, each component.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:16:39

      And is it also fascinating to you that this is not dependent upon nations? That this is a worldwide endeavor?

   5. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:16:43

      Well, yeah, I thi- I think, I think that's gonna be important once e- once it starts to get a very high level of intelligence.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:16:51

      Yeah.

   7. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:16:51

      Like in, in the early stages, okay, what would it hur-... Like if, if I had, you know, my own database, a central record of, of everything, like I'm, I'm an honest person. I'm not gonna rip anyone off. But once we start to make a transition toward artificial general intelligence in this global decentralized network, which has component AIs from every country on the planet, like a- at that point, once it's clear you're getting toward AGI, a lot of people want to step in and control this thing-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:17:24

      Yeah.

   9. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:17:24

      ... you know, by law, by military might, by any means necessary. By that point, the fact that you have this open, decentralized network under- underpinning everything, like this gives an a- an amazing resilience to what you're doing. Like who can shut down Linux? Who can shut down Bitcoin? No-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:17:38

       Right.

   11. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:17:38

       Nobody can, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:17:40

       Yeah.

   13. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:17:40

       You, you, you want AI... You want AI to be like that. You want it to be a global, you know, upsurge of, of creativity and, and mutual benefit from people all over the planet, which no powerful party can, can shut down even if they're afraid that it threatens their hegemony.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:17:57

       It's very interesting because in a lot of ways that's a... i- it's a very elegant solution to what's an obvious problem.

   15. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:18:03

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:18:03

       Yeah. I'm... I-

   17. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:18:04

       Just as the internet-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:18:05

       Yeah.

   19. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:18:05

       ... is an elegant solution to, to what's-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:18:08

       Yeah.

   21. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:18:08

       ... in hindsight an obvious problem, right? It's a...

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:18:10

       Distribution of an information-

   23. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:18:11

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:18:12

       ... to be able to communicate.

   25. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:18:13

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:18:13

       Yeah. This... but this is, uh, extra special to me because e- e- if I was a person running a country, I would be terrified of this shit. I'd be like, "Well, this is what's gonna take power away." Right.

   27. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:18:22

       That depends which country. If, if you're a person running the US or China, you, you would have a different relationship than if you're a per-... Like I know the prime minister of Ethiopia, Abiy Ahmed who's a... has a degree in software engineering and-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:18:36

       Wow.

   29. BGDr. Ben Goertzel1:18:37

       ... he, he, he loves this.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:18:38

       Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:15:20