Joe Rogan Experience #1226 - Mike Baker

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Four, three, two, one.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Four, three, two, one. (hands clap) Mr. Baker, how are you?

   2. MBMike Baker0:09

      Mr. Rogan, I'm doing well. Thanks very much. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Fine. What's going on, man? What are you doing in town?

   4. MBMike Baker0:13

      Uh, just, uh, was in town doing, uh, some, uh, work on a sizzle reel for a show, uh, a new show.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Can you talk about that?

   6. MBMike Baker0:20

      Can we talk about that?

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      Can you tell people what it is?

   8. MBMike Baker0:21

      Well, there's actually two of them. Uh, one I can talk about. I can tease it a little bit. Um, the marketing department, I guess, has to approve everything that's said. Um, it started out, it's going to be on the Discovery Network, I think a science channel. And it, uh, we're starting the main filming in February, and we should be finished by the end of March. So, you know, stand by. But it started with a discussion about, um, hidden budgets in the Defense Department.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:45

      Like dark art stuff?

   10. MBMike Baker0:47

       Yeah. It's going to ... The show's going to be called Black Files.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Oh.

   12. MBMike Baker0:50

       Uh, and ...

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Like UFO-type shit?

   14. MBMike Baker0:52

       Well, there's going to be some of that, uh, some. But, but from a, you know, not from a, you know, you know, did they li- land, did they not? It's, it's ... We're really actually kind of tearing into, um, some of the programs that were funded by, you know, hidden money, uh, in the Defense Department. And-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       Now, how do they do that?

   16. MBMike Baker1:09

       Well, (sighs) I mean, if you take like the CIA, for example. Uh, the agency's budget is hidden inside. It's not hidden, but it's placed inside the Defense Department, and it's, and it's a classified piece of information, obviously, 'cause, uh, a lot of, you know ...

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       So the Defense Department gets a certain budget. The CIA gets a piece of that, but nobody's-

   18. MBMike Baker1:24

       Gets a piece of that.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:24

       ... allowed to know how much-

   20. MBMike Baker1:25

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       ... or where it's spent.

   22. MBMike Baker1:26

       Right. 'Cause obviously, you know, the Russians, the Chinese, whomever would like to know, you know, how much money is, uh, sent over (laughs) to the agency so that they can get a sense of size, resources, capabilities.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:37

       Right.

   24. MBMike Baker1:37

       That sort of thing. Um, so, eh, that's where the, the show concept started. You know, what-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:42

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MBMike Baker1:43

       What is that money spent on? Eh, both in the old days and, and now, so it's like, it's, it kind of spans, you know, historical operations and events and activities and special units, and it comes up to the present time and says, you know, where is, you know, money being devoted now for new technology or new programs, new operations, new intelligence-gathering efforts, whatever it might be. So it's, yeah, I think it's, it's got a lot of promise. You know, hopefully people tune in and find it interesting. (laughs) Uh ...

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Well, people are always curious about where the money goes.

   28. MBMike Baker2:10

       Yeah. Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       And, you know, I am. I want, like, who oversees it? Who gets, who gets to decide, like, what gets spent on what, and how much money goes where, and who-

   30. MBMike Baker2:21

       I do, actually. (laughs)
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   But it compromises the…

   1. MBMike Baker15:00

      or whomever. They're willing to accept millions and millions and millions of dollars as acceptable loss for, for the cost of doing business, and so it's a little bit like that I think with journalism. They're, they're willing to just throw shit out there and, hey, if they have to make a retraction, fine.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:14

      But it compromises the way a person like myself views the news. I mean, look, I hate to quote Trump, but when he... (sighs) He's, like, parrots that fake news term over and over again. You... if you are a person who's... or an organization that's being accused of lying, it seems to me you should really dot your I's and cross your T's from then on out.

   3. MBMike Baker15:37

      Right.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:37

      I mean, you're being accused of lying by the president, and I think irresponsibly accused. I mean, the way he does it, he does it to avoid questions that make him uncomfortable. I mean, and as the president, I just don't think you should be able to do that.

   5. MBMike Baker15:49

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:49

      You can't point to someone from CNN and, "You're fake news."

   7. MBMike Baker15:52

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:52

      Like, what are you, 12?

   9. MBMike Baker15:53

      It serves no purpose. Right. It serves no purpose for the president. (laughs) I agree with you 100%. I... so much of what this administration does is a self-inflicted wound, right? And, and part of it is, is, is, is that they're just crap at messaging. Part of it is this idea that, you know, he just says what's on his mind, and he does.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Yeah.

   11. MBMike Baker16:09

       Right? It's almost like he's got Tourette's, but I think he views it as a strength. He views it as a reason why he got elected. And a lot of people out there think, "Yeah, that's..." you know, the... his, his base, you know, the people that are really behind him no matter what. I think they view it as part of his charm as well and, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       The problem is he does release classified information sometimes.

   13. MBMike Baker16:28

       Yeah. We've had that problem with, uh, several administrations. Uh-

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:32

       They just don't know what to not say.

   15. MBMike Baker16:35

       Well, I, (sighs) I think part of it again is, um... Yeah, there's, there's a laxness that's developed over the years and I don't know why, right? Because (sighs) , you know, I mean, I think about all the various security issues we face, and look, we've been at war for, you know, 17 years, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:48

       Right.

   17. MBMike Baker16:48

       Since 9/11. And all these things that have been happening to us, you would think that we'd be pretty buttoned up, but no. Every administration has had its moment where it's let slip and whether it was the press secretary or whether it was somebody rushing to the podium or it was somebody on Capitol Hill. I mean, they're famous for it up there. You know, congressman and, and congresswomen or senators, all in the... in, in, in a rush to get in front of the camera to talk about something and then, you know, shit happens. Things get out that they shouldn't. So I think it's... it, it all kinda contributes to this mentality that we started off talking about with, with the Seals where, you know, uh, they... you know, why are we in this point where people are writing books and, and maybe getting outside the box? And I think it's just because... yeah, it's this constant drip and lowering of standards like you mentioned, I think. And it's, uh... I don't think we walk that dog back. I don't... you know, it's just the way it is.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:35

       Now, you're, you're not in the agency anymore, but I'm sure you stay tight with people that are still there. What, what is the attitude now with th- this administration? Like, what they're doing with, like, his-

   19. MBMike Baker17:46

       (sighs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:46

       The way he attacks the FBI and the way... like, it just seems, it seems so reckless.

   21. MBMike Baker17:53

       Yeah. It's, uh... (sighs) it's, uh, it's, uh, unusual. I mean, look, I... look, there's... here's the way I feel about it. I didn't vote for, for the president. I didn't vote for Hillary Clinton. I, I didn't think either of them were the, you know, the, the best we could do in a country of over 300 million people. (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:10

       Yeah, we've, we've talked about this before-

   23. MBMike Baker18:11

       Yeah, yeah, exactly.

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:11

       ... that if it was you or I that did what Hillary did, we'd be in jail.

   25. MBMike Baker18:14

       Yeah, exactly, yeah. And so, um, (sighs) but as far as, you know, what the, the, the current mood inside the agency is, I mean, if you talk to some, uh, former folks, they... you know, they, they'll say, "Ah, morale is awful. Morale is terrible!" And they... you know, they just say, just, you know, hating life 'cause there's no... I, I don't find that. I find that, um...... the (sighs) frankly, they're just more focused on operational concerns and priorities and tasking than anything else. Everybody's got a, a personal opinion, right? But I do think that the agency has proven itself over the years at being better at, um, pushing that down and understanding ... And in part because it's a smaller organization, right? Than most of them, um, th- than almost all of them. And, you know-

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:56

       But he's after ... He's not ... He doesn't go after the CIA, right?

   27. MBMike Baker18:58

       Mm-mm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:58

       He's only gone after the FBI.

   29. MBMike Baker19:00

       He's gone after the FBI. I mean, he's ... you know, he's questioned ... He's done, he's done some things in terms of questioning CIA analysis and, uh, and, and, uh, you know, some of the, uh, advice and guidance that they've provided.

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:10

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Right. …

   1. MBMike Baker30:00

      then, uh, you know, if, if they gain sufficient ability and strength, we've seen that from past attacks, I think then, then they'll come after you. They'll come after us, and that's just the way I suppose that's going to work. But I don't disagree with the notion because it, it is hard-pressed. I, look, I wouldn't have stayed in Afghanistan, frankly. I don't care whether they've increased their literacy rate by 2% or built another road or whatever. Doesn't matter. They don't, they don't know what the hell we're trying to sell them, right? So I don't, uh, I'm, I'm not against the notion of getting out, but th- this one's a tough one. I guess that's what I'm saying is, is that the Syria issue is, I'm, I'm real conflicted on because of the Kurds and, and what they're-... they've done on our behalf in the past and, and how they've suffered. And knowing, uh, going years and years back, you know, having dealt with that issue, uh, two and a half decades ago, a long time ago, with the Turks and the Kurds, knowing how vicious that could be. Uh, and I don't trust Erdoğan as far as I could throw him out a window. So, you know, I think what, w- there, there's a problem there that we need to, we need to make sure we've talked through thoroughly before we just say, "Sure, let's get them out of there." You know, "What the hell?" You know, "We shouldn't have them there and we shouldn't be there." (sighs) But like everything else, look, it's, it's, it's complicated. You would like to think that w- they're having conversations like this up on Capitol Hill-

   2. JRJoe Rogan31:17

      Right.

   3. MBMike Baker31:17

      ... you know, between the, the, the, the parties, uh, Republicans and the Dems, but I don't think they are. You know?

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:23

      That's what, what's concerning me. What concerns me is I... uh, especially a guy like Trump. If Trump is the guy who's decided we're gonna pull out of Syria, like, how does he have enough time to carefully consider that as well as all the other things that are on his, his plate?

   5. MBMike Baker31:42

      Yeah. Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:43

      And when someone runs for president, say, if someone's campaigning and they say, you know, "We're, I'm, I support a non-interventionalist foreign policy. I'm gonna get us out of these, these wars. I'm gonna get..." They're doing this based on a limited amount of information. Like, it's not like the CIA or the FBI or anybody briefs them as they're running for president. They don't have clearance, right?

   7. MBMike Baker32:06

      Right, right, uh, until you become the party nominee.

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:08

      Right.

   9. MBMike Baker32:09

      Uh, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:09

       So, so when you're the party nominee, then do you get a discussion?

   11. MBMike Baker32:12

       You get, you get some access, right? It's not-

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:14

       Some.

   13. MBMike Baker32:14

       You're still not the president, but-

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       Right.

   15. MBMike Baker32:16

       ... but you are given some ability to, uh, get, uh, more intensive briefings.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       Yeah.

   17. MBMike Baker32:21

       Yeah. But it's not, it's not to the degree that the president sees.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:24

       So, someone like Hillary, she was already Secretary of State. She alread-

   19. MBMike Baker32:26

       Oh, yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       She already knew pretty much most things.

   21. MBMike Baker32:29

       Yeah. Yeah. She had, yeah, she, she was, uh, you know, very switched on, very, uh, informed. Um, you know, she was just an awful candidate. (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:38

       Yeah.

   23. MBMike Baker32:39

       Sorry. Um, I, you know, so I, I think that, um... Look, I, there's certain things that this administration's doing foreign policy wise that I think are good and make sense. Uh, there are other things that I think, uh, y- you know, you just leave you scratching your head. Um, but that's like every administration. I guess my point is we've gotten away from that ability, right? I have conversations, I go out to dinner with folks that, you know, on the, on the, on the hard left, and when you talk to them, they fully believe, fully believe that President Trump is a Russian puppet, a witting asset of Putin who is just doing Putin's bidding. And they honestly, honestly believe that. And nothing is gonna shift them off that position. W- when you have a, a, a, you know, that sort of frame of reference, you don't have the ability to look at anything rationally and say, "Yeah, okay, I like this policy, uh, uh, related to China. It's about time we call them out and say that you obviously have not been a fair trading partner."

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:40

       Right.

   25. MBMike Baker33:40

       That's something that every administration has agreed to, but has never done anything about. So, you would think that everybody would be able to say, "Hmm, makes sense. Yeah, I like it." Everybody should be able to say, "The immigration, you know, system here in the, in the States is somewhat dysfunctional. It needs fixing." Everybody's talked about that. And yet, they can't do it because they've got this, this mindset that, that, that prevents them from having any sort of conversation, any sort of rational discussion that could lead to some compromise that could then advance the ball and make this government more functional. So...

   26. JRJoe Rogan34:11

       So, where we're at right now is, uh, today is day what of the shutdown?

   27. MBMike Baker34:16

       26th, I think?

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:17

       Tw- 26th.

   29. MBMike Baker34:18

       26th day.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:18

       So, 800,000 American workers that work for the government are not getting paid. So, they're a month out. Many of these people, paycheck to paycheck. They don't have m- medical necessities. They don't have food. People are having to ration off their, their, their insulin if they're diabetic. I mean, I'm hearing these horror, horror stories. The lines at the airport are around the fucking block.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Right. …

   1. MBMike Baker45:00

      for a contributor slot. They're looking for ... O- on one network or another.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      Right.

   3. MBMike Baker45:03

      I think that's what they're doing. They d-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:04

      Yeah.

   5. MBMike Baker45:04

      You have to, nowadays ... I think that the, I think ... At least my theory is anyway. If you want to be a paid contributor for a network, and it doesn't matter which network.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:12

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MBMike Baker45:13

      You got to stake out a position, uh, that involves some crazy, right? You've got to be ... Like, you've got to like, be all in for President Trump, or you've got to be all out, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:22

      Yeah.

   9. MBMike Baker45:22

      If you, if you live in the center, that ain't happening, right?

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:24

       Right.

   11. MBMike Baker45:24

       Nobody wants to hear from anybody in the middle, because-

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:27

       Right.

   13. MBMike Baker45:27

       ... that, that shit's not picking up the ratings at all. So ...

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       No.

   15. MBMike Baker45:30

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       No one wants reasonable middle right now.

   17. MBMike Baker45:32

       No. No.

   18. JRJoe Rogan45:33

       The only time that I think reasonable middle would ever work out is if the two ends are so fucked up and they're fighting so hard on the opposite ends. Like, someone's like, "God. Surely, there's got to be a reasonable middle ..." And then someone comes along. It's almost like the people-

   19. MBMike Baker45:47

       You gotta.

   20. JRJoe Rogan45:47

       ... people got to be screaming for it. But right now, it doesn't seem like people are screaming for-

   21. MBMike Baker45:50

       No. No. It's, it's like, uh-

   22. JRJoe Rogan45:51

       ... a sensible centrist position.

   23. MBMike Baker45:52

       It's like, uh, uh, World War I trench warfare, right?

   24. JRJoe Rogan45:55

       Mm-hmm.

   25. MBMike Baker45:55

       I mean, that's, that's the way it is with the government shutdown right now.

   26. JRJoe Rogan45:57

       Yeah.

   27. MBMike Baker45:57

       You know? Pelosi's sitting over here in the mud and President Trump's sitting over here in the mud, and nobody's giving any ground. And they're just, they're just occasionally taking a shot at each other, throwing a hand grenade, and nobody is making any, any movement. So, I ... You know, again, how do they shut the ... or how do they stop this shutdown? You can't if you're not talking. If you're not ... If there's, if there's no effort, you ... it's not gonna happen. So everybody's looking at this right now and thinking, you know, "Where's it go?" It's affecting the markets. It makes us look like morons. Uh, I mean, not that others aren't. I mean, look at, look at Britain, right? With the Brexit thing.

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       Yeah.

   29. MBMike Baker46:33

       Look at France with the, the yellow vests. Look at the, you know, Germany's-

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:36

       Right.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:09:48

   Let me ask you…

   1. MBMike Baker1:00:00

      Or had access to that gear. And that's a, that's an important part of, of this. And it's happened several times since then, and I'm, you know, I'm not disclosing anything because it's all, it's been written about. I'm sure it'll be a movie at some point. But, um, that is, uh, that's a concern. I'm far more worried about a company like Huawei with its, uh, integration into, uh, allied, um, our allies, uh, telecommunications systems than I am about sort of the individual sale of phones and, you know, what that means. Uh, look, you know, Amazon and all the others are gathering more data on the average American than, you know, uh, the US government or anybody else's government is doing at this point. (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

      Let me ask you this 'cause this is something that just came up, and we were trying to figure out if it's nonsense or not. My friend Adam was here the other day, and we were talking about Toyota trucks. And he didn't google "Toyota trucks" just discussing it, and he said since then, his mentions have been filled with these little advertisements for Toyota trucks.

   3. MBMike Baker1:00:58

      For Toyota trucks. Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:59

      H- how does that work?

   5. MBMike Baker1:01:01

      Um, (sighs) well, you know how you talk to Siri?

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

      Yes.

   7. MBMike Baker1:01:04

      Yeah. Um, it, it's, it's simple voice rec- recognition. It, it's, it's a carryover from the old days of, you know, optical, uh, readers and how, you know, we all thought it was incredible that you could take a piece of paper, put it into a system, and it would, like, take that information that was on that piece of paper, and now it was on a database that you could-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

      Right.

   9. MBMike Baker1:01:21

      ... access and manipulate.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       Right.

   11. MBMike Baker1:01:23

       And so, you know, voice recognition is no different in the sense that ... So if, if, if, for example, if I had this switched on and ... It happens to people on, you know, I'm sure all the time walking around their house. They'll say something and then all of a sudden Alexa will come on and go, "Oh, uh, I couldn't find a result for that, but do you wanna listen to Ella Fitzgerald or whatever?"

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:41

       Right.

   13. MBMike Baker1:01:42

       Um, it's, it's always on. It's always listening, right? And you can do that with anything. Like, this TV right here, if you wanted to, if you ... If I knew that TV was gonna go into the office of the deputy foreign minister of a, uh, country hostile to our interests, I could turn that thing into a receiver, obviously, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:01

       Right.

   15. MBMike Baker1:02:01

       And if I could get my hands on that before delivery, that's a wonderful thing. Now I've got this in there and it's like the old days when you would have to, you know, go in on a, on an entry operation and, you know, use silent drills and put a, a, a, you know, device in the wall. Now, you know, we've delivered a TV. Now I get (laughs) now I get-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:19

       Right.

   17. MBMike Baker1:02:19

       ... you know, video too. Hey, good for me. So, the, the shit's always on, you know, in a sense. And, um-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:26

       So a regular phone that you get, if you just buy an iPhone and you have Siri turned on so where you can say, "Hey, Siri," and it, it turns on, that phone is always listening to you.

   19. MBMike Baker1:02:37

       Well, uh, the ... Now we're getting in over my head, but it could be. I mean, there ... Is, is it possible? Is it, is it capable of doing that? Yes. Could you do that, um, uh, as an intentional operation? Sure. Um, is it happening because Apple wants to do it and they want to get better understanding of consumer preferences and things? I have no idea. That's, that's above my pay grade. But I, I will say from an operational perspective, sure, yeah. You would, you know-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:03:02

       From an operational perspective, right.

   21. MBMike Baker1:03:04

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:03:04

       But, like, it would kind of be scandalous if we found out that Apple was-

   23. MBMike Baker1:03:07

       Sure.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:07

       ... listening to everything that you say, and then they're sending them information to these companies and then they're trying to sell you whatever you were bringing up.

   25. MBMike Baker1:03:14

       Yeah. But it's one ... It's really ... If you think about it, it's only one step above what they do anyway.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:03:17

       Right.

   27. MBMike Baker1:03:18

       Which is, I mean, if I go in here and I search Toyota-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:20

       Right.

   29. MBMike Baker1:03:20

       ... you know, I'm in, I'm in the same situation. I'm fucking inundated with Toyota mentions, right?

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:03:24

       Right. Of course.

Episode duration: 2:21:52