Joe Rogan Experience #1226 - Mike Baker

Mike Baker is a former CIA covert operations officer. Currently he is the president of Diligence LLC, a global intelligence and security firm.

Joe RoganhostMike BakerguestGuestguest

Jan 17, 20192h 21mWatch on YouTube ↗

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150 min read · 30,020 words

0:03 – 1:08
Mike Baker’s new Discovery show: secret defense budgets and “Black Files”
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Four, three, two, one. (hands clap) Mr. Baker, how are you?
2. MBMike Baker
  Mr. Rogan, I'm doing well. Thanks very much. (laughs)
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Fine. What's going on, man? What are you doing in town?
4. MBMike Baker
  Uh, just, uh, was in town doing, uh, some, uh, work on a sizzle reel for a show, uh, a new show.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Can you talk about that?
6. MBMike Baker
  Can we talk about that?
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Can you tell people what it is?
8. MBMike Baker
  Well, there's actually two of them. Uh, one I can talk about. I can tease it a little bit. Um, the marketing department, I guess, has to approve everything that's said. Um, it started out, it's going to be on the Discovery Network, I think a science channel. And it, uh, we're starting the main filming in February, and we should be finished by the end of March. So, you know, stand by. But it started with a discussion about, um, hidden budgets in the Defense Department.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Like dark art stuff?
10. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. It's going to ... The show's going to be called Black Files.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
12. MBMike Baker
  Uh, and ...
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Like UFO-type shit?
14. MBMike Baker
  Well, there's going to be some of that, uh, some. But, but from a, you know, not from a, you know, you know, did they li- land, did they not? It's, it's ... We're really actually kind of tearing into, um, some of the programs that were funded by, you know, hidden money, uh, in the Defense Department. And-
1:08 – 3:57
How black budgets work: CIA funding, oversight, and why secrecy exists
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Now, how do they do that?
2. MBMike Baker
  Well, (sighs) I mean, if you take like the CIA, for example. Uh, the agency's budget is hidden inside. It's not hidden, but it's placed inside the Defense Department, and it's, and it's a classified piece of information, obviously, 'cause, uh, a lot of, you know ...
3. JRJoe Rogan
  So the Defense Department gets a certain budget. The CIA gets a piece of that, but nobody's-
4. MBMike Baker
  Gets a piece of that.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... allowed to know how much-
6. MBMike Baker
  Right.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  ... or where it's spent.
8. MBMike Baker
  Right. 'Cause obviously, you know, the Russians, the Chinese, whomever would like to know, you know, how much money is, uh, sent over (laughs) to the agency so that they can get a sense of size, resources, capabilities.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
10. MBMike Baker
  That sort of thing. Um, so, eh, that's where the, the show concept started. You know, what-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
12. MBMike Baker
  What is that money spent on? Eh, both in the old days and, and now, so it's like, it's, it kind of spans, you know, historical operations and events and activities and special units, and it comes up to the present time and says, you know, where is, you know, money being devoted now for new technology or new programs, new operations, new intelligence-gathering efforts, whatever it might be. So it's, yeah, I think it's, it's got a lot of promise. You know, hopefully people tune in and find it interesting. (laughs) Uh ...
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, people are always curious about where the money goes.
14. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  And, you know, I am. I want, like, who oversees it? Who gets, who gets to decide, like, what gets spent on what, and how much money goes where, and who-
16. MBMike Baker
  I do, actually. (laughs)
17. JRJoe Rogan
  ... who gets to know?
18. MBMike Baker
  I do. That's ... It's my job. Um, it's a good question. Uh, you know, that's ... I think a lot of people would be, uh, surprised at the amount that we're talking about. And I'll ... And, and it's not just, it's not the intelligence community. It's also the military, obviously. Um, you know, the-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Can you discuss the actual numbers, or could you discuss the numbers that they used to have?
20. MBMike Baker
  Uh, we'll be able to discuss the numbers that, um, went into past operations. But anything that's currently classified, obviously, we're not going to touch on.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
22. MBMike Baker
  Um, but we've been working hard, and the producer's been working very hard to, uh, get excellent access, you know, where possible, and get cooperation where possible. Uh, it's going to be a-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  But, but-
24. MBMike Baker
  ... fairly immersive effort. Um ...
25. JRJoe Rogan
  So what's the benefit of the CIA even divulging any of this information? Like, why would they cooperate? Why wouldn't they say, "Hey, shut the fuck up."
26. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. Well, and, and, and, and frankly, they should, and, and they have, and they will. Um, but not necessarily with the agency, but with other, uh, departments, and certainly within the military, there's, um, uh, you know, some information out there that's accessible. Uh, there's some ability to get them to cooperate on, on certain, again, declassified operations that just haven't come to light. And look-
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
28. MBMike Baker
  ... a lot of shit's been declassified over the years that's just never been looked at or talked about. You know, somebody maybe gets a wild hair up their ass, and they say, "I'm going to look into this program." And then they start, you know, peeling it back. It's not that it's classified. It's just nobody's ever bothered to dig into that information once it is, uh, declassified. So, uh, you know, it's, it's going, it's going to be a lot of fun, a lot of travel, um, some great people working on the program. But, you know, apparently I have to, uh, keep it pretty much at that until the marketing department says, "Okay, here's what you can say."
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
30. MBMike Baker
  So ... Um ...
3:57 – 6:44
Secret R&D and historic examples: the U-2 program and the “need to know” world
1. JRJoe Rogan
  So, like, if they're making something like the B-52, like if they're making a stealth bomber, if they're making some spaceship-looking thing, like you're, you're talking this insane amount of money in research and development and the budget of these things, and they have to keep all that under wraps.
2. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. Shit, yeah. I mean, look, uh, you go back to the old days of, um, (smacks lips) of the U2 program. The U2 program was developed, designed, built, maintained, flown by the CIA all those years ago, right? Now, that was a massive effort and a lot of money, and it was done, uh, under budget (laughs) and it was done on time, um, uh, in, in part because I think, you know, things were a little bit easier back then, and we weren't all pissing on each other up on Capitol Hill. But, um, yeah, there's ... So it's, it's, it's programs like that, that I think will surprise people when they find out both who was running it, who was responsible, um, and to the degree possible, you know, what did it cost us, and-
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
4. MBMike Baker
  ... you know, who was involved? And, and to what degree did it lead to something else that we're doing now? So anyway, there's, there's a lot of, lot of, you know, uh, threads to pull on it. I think it should be a lot of, a lot of fun.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  So there's constantly projects that are i- in development that people other than the people that need to know, th- the general public has no idea.
6. MBMike Baker
  (sniffs)
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Like that's always the, the, the pers- the, the people on the outside, folks like myself. You look at the ... You go, "I wonder what kind of shit they have that they don't tell us about."
8. MBMike Baker
  (laughs)
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Like that's what you always want. Like what kind of invisibility-
10. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  ... cloak, what kind of crazy, you know ...
12. MBMike Baker
  That would be good if we had that. Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Dark matter weapons.
14. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Like what are they doing?
16. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. No, it's, it ... And it's, it's true. I mean, you get these incredibly smart people, and it, but it comes down to, it's, it's as simple as this. Somebody gets an idea. They're sitting around a table. It's not unlike going out with your buddies and drinking and thinking ... You know, come, somebody comes up with, with some, you know, dumbass idea. The next thing you know, it, it turns into a TV show or something. But it's, uh, it's, it's not unlike that. A lot of smart guys sitting around a table thinking, "Well, here's the problem. How do we resolve it?" And the key is to do it creatively, right? To come up with ... 'Cause if you've got a bunch of engineers sitting around a table, you hope that they're not all approaching it from the same point of view, right? It's just-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
18. MBMike Baker
  It's like with an operation. If you've got a, you've got a high-value target out there and you've got to figure out how to get, get access, get to them, um, you want ideas coming in from all directions. You don't wanna, you don't wanna, you know, squelch, uh, uh, creativity. And-Believe it or not, I mean, the intel community and the military, uh, they've been enormously creative over the years in developing new technologies and developing, uh, operational ideas and methodologies. So it's, uh, what we're trying to do is shed some light on that.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I would imagine there's a certain amount of, I don't want to use the word fun, but that's really the right word. Like, some of it's got to be fun to develop this stuff.
20. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  And to implement it and go out and get bad guys with it and to see your project come to fruition and actually have a positive effect on the world.
6:44 – 12:28
Bin Laden raid context and the ethics of telling war stories
1. MBMike Baker
  Absolutely, yeah. I mean, if- i- if you ... (sighs) Y- you know, it really is. It's- it's that simple because (sighs) , you know, in operations anyway, y- you know, you engage in something out there in- in some, you know- you know, place around the world, wherever it may be, and (sighs) you know, you realize as you're walking away that, you know, there are not a lot of people doing this at this moment on the planet, right? I mean, uh-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
3. MBMike Baker
  So the operational activity itself is- is enormously entertaining, uh, as long as it goes right. Um, but it's also the build-up. It's all that homework that gets you there, right? It's- it's like the takedown of bin Laden. We didn't just happen to get lucky and rock up on his doorstep, right, in Abbottabad. That was eight or nine years of (sighs) fucking hard work, right? Heavy lifting, chasing down countless bad leads and doing enormous amounts of surveillance, street work, and- and tracking down assets and doing... I mean, just, it, just the hard, hard work that eventually allowed the- the, you know, all those guys, y- from- from the teams to land and do their job, right?
4. JRJoe Rogan
  What's- what's interesting to me, too, is that the guy who is writing the book about all this stuff and talking about, you know, the man who shot bin Laden-
5. MBMike Baker
  Mm-hmm.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  That guy is persona non grata in the community. Like, you talk to the other SEALs, they're like, "You don't- you don't do that."
7. MBMike Baker
  Right, right.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  "You don't- you don't do that."
9. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  "You don't- you don't write books about that. You don't talk about that." And you do it-
11. MBMike Baker
  I- I- I think-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  ... for a short-term gain. You know, you make some profit off of it, but you lose the brothership.
13. MBMike Baker
  You lose a ... Yeah, exactly. You- you're- you're kinda on the outs in the club and (sighs) but I will say this. The reason why I think, uh, the horse got out of the barn on- on that whole issue of- of guys writing books or getting out there and talking about specific operations, um, is because senior commanders and- and senior people, right, people that came out of the top levels of government, uh, started writing their memoirs, you know, started revisiting history while they were- it was their watch and then ... And coming up with, you know, their explanations for history. And I think all the guys below, you know, junior ranks and- and street-level operators, they looked at that and thought, "Well, what the fuck? If they can do it-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
15. MBMike Baker
  ... why not me?" And 'cause you gotta set the tone from the top.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
17. MBMike Baker
  And I think that's where it got, it got all, you know, kinda sideways.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Plus when you have someone who, uh, you know, has a crazy story like Marcus Luttrell and it becomes an amazing movie, it also-
19. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  It- it does help the community, right? Because it gets a bunch of people that are really interested in becoming a SEAL. It gets people to appreciate the- the unbelievable sacrifice and hard work-
21. MBMike Baker
  Right.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that's involved.
23. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. I think that's ... I think that- is there is an upside.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  There's benefits, right? Yeah.
25. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. There's an upside to it, but I think, yeah, there's ... It's a fine balance, right? At what point do you go over that line?
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
27. MBMike Baker
  So- so you're right in the sense that, you know, we see that with, um, w- whomever, the FBI or DEA. You know, they got out there and put their thumbprint on some TV shows, right? Because I think it, it kind of, it- it, uh, expanded in- in part, uh, awareness of- of what they do. I'm sure it helped their recruitment. Um, and so the SEALs are no different. But at the same time, uh, (sighs) you know, you sign a piece of paper at the very beginning that says you're gonna keep your yap shut.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
29. MBMike Baker
  Right? And (sighs) and it's one thing to come out w- from whatever unit or whatever team or whatever organization and say, "I'm gonna write, uh, I don't know, about my time in." Right? And it's not a look at sources and methods, not look at operations. It's not that... It's more of, "You know, this is what happened, you know, during my time." And- and it ... I mean, I think there's ... I- I'm not explaining it very well, but I think there's a way you can do that, um, without screwing the pooch. But I think that, uh, I think the SEALs got overexposed, and I think a lot of the guys, uh, resent that.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
12:28 – 15:53
Classified NDAs, anonymous sourcing, and why modern journalism feels different
1. JRJoe Rogan
  And there's no laws against that?
2. MBMike Baker
  Well, there, there... yeah, there are. There... and, and, and, you know, anybody who, uh, (inhales deeply) reveal sources and methods, anybody who, who, uh, who breaks their agreements in terms of the proper handling, which is a lifetime agreement of, of classified information, um, there's supposed to be consequences, and sometimes there are and sometimes, if you're senior enough, maybe there's not. (laughs) Uh, but, uh, yeah, you... (sighs) You know, you sign a piece of paper at the very beginning. I'll never forget that. I read it and on it... and I said, "Okay, good." There was no question about that.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  What does it... what does it say basically?
4. MBMike Baker
  It says, "Keep your yap shut." I mean, I, I, I don't want-
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
6. MBMike Baker
  ... to oversimplify it, but it says, "You're, you, you're are being given the responsibility of handling, uh, extremely sensitive information and information that, that if, uh, released can easily result in the loss of life." I mean, it's as simple as, as that essentially, and your obligation is to shut your mouth and not talk about sources and methods and things that you know better not to talk about. And... But I think that the kind of the drip, drip, drip, right? Of the books and the things that come out and the, and the anonymous sources... Look, The New York Times can write a, uh, an entire front page article based on nothing but anonymous sources nowadays.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
8. MBMike Baker
  Never used to happen, right?
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
10. MBMike Baker
  You know, you got... You, you... You know, editors would sit there and go, "Heh, you know, you better get yourself some additional, you know, sources-"
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
12. MBMike Baker
  ... "and... that we can discuss so people can put it in context." Nowadays, that's not the case.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Why do you think that is?
14. MBMike Baker
  You know, I think because... (sighs) I don't know. I... uh, uh, it... uh, we're... Part of it is, um-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Lower standards-
16. MBMike Baker
  Lower-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  ... of journalism?
18. MBMike Baker
  Yeah, I think lower standards. I think competition. Um, I think the desire to get information out there quickly because every journalist is now, uh, playing beat the clock with everybody who's got a smartphone, right?
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
20. MBMike Baker
  And who fancies themselves a blogger or a, a, a journalist on Twitter or whatever.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
22. MBMike Baker
  So they're all, they're all doing this and I think it's just this idea, right? That says, uh... I'd, I'd say it, it reminds me of a meet- I had a meeting with, uh, with, um, my company Diligence, for all your information and security needs (laughs) , um, and it was with a major multinational corporation. And I was meeting with their head of security and some other folks, and they do a lot of work overseas in some very difficult places. And the competition that they face in their sector is huge, and so we went in there, and we thought, "This will be great. There's a lot of things we can do for them in terms of gathering information, preventing them from making mistakes as they're going into a new market, all of these things." And the bottom line was they said... they looked at me and they said, "Nah, you know what? The competition is so fierce, we're just gonna go in. If we make mistakes, we'll clean it up later."
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Jesus.
24. MBMike Baker
  And they were willing to do that. It's, it's like acceptable loss, credit card fraud loss, you know, for MasterCard or whomever. They're willing to accept millions and millions and millions of dollars as acceptable loss for, for the cost of doing business, and so it's a little bit like that I think with journalism. They're, they're willing to just throw shit out there and, hey, if they have to make a retraction, fine.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  But it compromises the way a person like myself views the news. I mean, look, I hate to quote Trump, but when he... (sighs) He's, like, parrots that fake news term over and over again. You... if you are a person who's... or an organization that's being accused of lying, it seems to me you should really dot your I's and cross your T's from then on out.
26. MBMike Baker
  Right.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  I mean, you're being accused of lying by the president, and I think irresponsibly accused. I mean, the way he does it, he does it to avoid questions that make him uncomfortable. I mean, and as the president, I just don't think you should be able to do that.
28. MBMike Baker
  Right.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  You can't point to someone from CNN and, "You're fake news."
30. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
15:53 – 19:46
Trump’s messaging, attacks on FBI, and morale inside the CIA
1. MBMike Baker
  It serves no purpose. Right. It serves no purpose for the president. (laughs) I agree with you 100%. I... so much of what this administration does is a self-inflicted wound, right? And, and part of it is, is, is, is that they're just crap at messaging. Part of it is this idea that, you know, he just says what's on his mind, and he does.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
3. MBMike Baker
  Right? It's almost like he's got Tourette's, but I think he views it as a strength. He views it as a reason why he got elected. And a lot of people out there think, "Yeah, that's..." you know, the... his, his base, you know, the people that are really behind him no matter what. I think they view it as part of his charm as well and, yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  The problem is he does release classified information sometimes.
5. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. We've had that problem with, uh, several administrations. Uh-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  They just don't know what to not say.
7. MBMike Baker
  Well, I, (sighs) I think part of it again is, um... Yeah, there's, there's a laxness that's developed over the years and I don't know why, right? Because (sighs) , you know, I mean, I think about all the various security issues we face, and look, we've been at war for, you know, 17 years, right?
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
9. MBMike Baker
  Since 9/11. And all these things that have been happening to us, you would think that we'd be pretty buttoned up, but no. Every administration has had its moment where it's let slip and whether it was the press secretary or whether it was somebody rushing to the podium or it was somebody on Capitol Hill. I mean, they're famous for it up there. You know, congressman and, and congresswomen or senators, all in the... in, in, in a rush to get in front of the camera to talk about something and then, you know, shit happens. Things get out that they shouldn't. So I think it's... it, it all kinda contributes to this mentality that we started off talking about with, with the Seals where, you know, uh, they... you know, why are we in this point where people are writing books and, and maybe getting outside the box? And I think it's just because... yeah, it's this constant drip and lowering of standards like you mentioned, I think. And it's, uh... I don't think we walk that dog back. I don't... you know, it's just the way it is.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Now, you're, you're not in the agency anymore, but I'm sure you stay tight with people that are still there. What, what is the attitude now with th- this administration? Like, what they're doing with, like, his-
11. MBMike Baker
  (sighs)
12. JRJoe Rogan
  The way he attacks the FBI and the way... like, it just seems, it seems so reckless.
13. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. It's, uh... (sighs) it's, uh, it's, uh, unusual. I mean, look, I... look, there's... here's the way I feel about it. I didn't vote for, for the president. I didn't vote for Hillary Clinton. I, I didn't think either of them were the, you know, the, the best we could do in a country of over 300 million people. (laughs)
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, we've, we've talked about this before-
15. MBMike Baker
  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that if it was you or I that did what Hillary did, we'd be in jail.
17. MBMike Baker
  Yeah, exactly, yeah. And so, um, (sighs) but as far as, you know, what the, the, the current mood inside the agency is, I mean, if you talk to some, uh, former folks, they... you know, they, they'll say, "Ah, morale is awful. Morale is terrible!" And they... you know, they just say, just, you know, hating life 'cause there's no... I, I don't find that. I find that, um...... the (sighs) frankly, they're just more focused on operational concerns and priorities and tasking than anything else. Everybody's got a, a personal opinion, right? But I do think that the agency has proven itself over the years at being better at, um, pushing that down and understanding ... And in part because it's a smaller organization, right? Than most of them, um, th- than almost all of them. And, you know-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  But he's after ... He's not ... He doesn't go after the CIA, right?
19. MBMike Baker
  Mm-mm.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  He's only gone after the FBI.
21. MBMike Baker
  He's gone after the FBI. I mean, he's ... you know, he's questioned ... He's done, he's done some things in terms of questioning CIA analysis and, uh, and, and, uh, you know, some of the, uh, advice and guidance that they've provided.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
23. MBMike Baker
  But that ... Again, you sort of look at it and go, "Hey, look, we're feeding this into the NSC, the National Security Council. You guys ..." You know, uh, that's, that's, that's an editorial process at that point. "You guys are gonna have to make your decisions." Um, uh, you know, uh, people are gonna say I'm just saying this because I'm subjective and I'd ... you know, I'm providing top cover for the agency, but for the most part, they just focus on getting shit done. And, and we also have the benefit of being focused overseas, so we're not ... Like, the Bureau is, you know, it's a domestic organization, right? So they (inhales deeply) , you know, they're drawn in. The agency's got the advantage of, "Look, we're having to deal with crap over there-"
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
25. MBMike Baker
  "... and not here." So ...
19:46 – 34:11
Syria withdrawal debate: ISIS, U.S. troops, and the Kurdish dilemma
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Now, what did you think when he said they were gonna pull out of Syria?
2. MBMike Baker
  Mm. (grunts)
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
4. MBMike Baker
  Well, first of all, yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
6. MBMike Baker
  Um, yeah, they just had that, uh ... We've, we've lost some servicemen up in, uh, Northern Syria today, um-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Today?
8. MBMike Baker
  As a result of a bombing up there, yeah. ISIS is taking credit for it. So they're ... There was a, (sighs) a patrol, and we've ... And we've got roughly 2,000, uh, personnel in Syria. And for the most part, what are they doing there? Well, they're providing, uh, uh, guidance training. Um, they're assisting with, uh, targeting, um, uh ... And because the, the air power is incredibly important over there right now, and so we are, uh ... Our personnel are, um, very much involved in selection of identification of targets, uh, for the air campaign. And, um, so we have these 2,000 troops there. The President says he's gonna withdraw, and then, then some of the members of the administration start walking that dog back, right? Saying, "Well, you know, it may not happen right away." But yeah, they j- ... There was just a, a p- ... a routine patrol, uh, if there ... There's never really such thing as a routine patrol, but there was a patrol, um, and it got hit. Uh, the military is not releasing a lot of details because they haven't finished notifying next of kin, but, um, numbers so far indicate possibly four servicemen, uh, lost. Um, and that's going to refocus, I think, Congress and hopefully the White House on what the hell is going on. The problem I've got with it is in terms of withdrawing. Look, we could stay there forever and not accomplish the task, right? If the task is to finally, uh, defeat, whatever that means, uh, radical Islam, jihadists, uh, ISIS, uh ... That shit's never gonna happen w- ... Not in our lifetimes. We're not gonna get rid of that mentality, that, that ideology, uh, the ... sort of what seems to be sometimes a bottomless well of recruits that they can draw on, their ability to morph into something else, uh, as Al-Qaeda did, um, over ... depending on, you know, how successful we are in a campaign against them. They're like ... You know, again, it's a ... It's, it's, you know, it's like, you know, you step on roaches over here and they pop up over here. So I think (sighs) it's ... Uh, the, the, the, the biggest problem I've got is, is that if we leave, we're not, we're not, um ... You know, it's not like we're engaged in firefights every day with ISIS over there, right? We've left that to our allies, and our allies, in most part, up there in the north of Syria are the Kurds. And the Kurds have been our allies in one way or another in that part (laughs) of the world for a long time now, and have played a very important role. And we have not been particularly honorable over the, over the years in terms of how sometimes we deal with them. If we walk out, if we leave, then, (smacks lips) uh, Erdoğan, you know, the head of Turkey, I guarantee you will be in there in short order to kill as many of them as possible, 'cause that's just what, uh, the Turkish authorities are gonna do. They, honestly, uh, they're ... Th- they couldn't be happier with the announcement that we're gonna leave, because that opens the door for them to then go in there and, from their perspective, stamp out the Kurdish alliance, that have been our allies.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
10. MBMike Baker
  We're the only thing, our presence, that small presence ... You know, not minimizing it, but you know, 2,000 troops, has been what's prevented them from doing that. So that's, that's the number one issue I've got. The other is (smacks lips) I have no idea why any president or vice (laughs) president or anybody in, in the government ever ... not this, this administration or any administration ... ever thinks it's a, it's a good idea to say, "We've defeated the enemy," uh, when we're talking about radical Islam. We've seen it over and over again from previous administration, from the Bush administration. Every time they say, you know, "We, we, we've done it-"
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Mission accomplished.
12. MBMike Baker
  "Mission accomplished," or, "We beat- we've beaten Al-Qaeda," or, "We've beaten ISIS." It's n- ... Uh, it ... There's no upside to saying that. Shut the fuck up. Stop saying things like that. It's ... Again, it's a self-inflicted wound that the c- ... 'Cause now what's happening? Yeah, the media is not focused on the fact that we've lost servicemen. They're focused on, "Well, just, uh, just the other day, the President said we defeated ISIS, and the vice president today said the same thing, and now look what's happened." Uh, uh, th- th- there's no benefit to saying that, and, and, and it's not gonna happen anyway, so yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  So the goal of being over there is to assist our allies but also to make sure that these radical factions don't become more powerful and then eventually affect us and attack us, and so we can keep an eye on what they're planning, what they're doing? Is that-
14. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Is that an accurate ...
16. MBMike Baker
  Yeah, it is. It i- it's, it's, it's exactly it. I mean, if you look at, um ... (sighs) The reason we went into Afghanistan, right? If we go back all those (laughs) years ... Holy shit ... uh, (sighs) and ...That was because the Taliban allowed, um, Al-Qaeda to establish a, a beachhead in there for training and for communications and for finance and for plotting and planning attacks outside of Afghanistan against us and, and our allies. That's why we went in there, aside from just seeking revenge. Obviously was to route that out. We then stayed, (sighs) you know, thinking somehow we were gonna turn the tide of history and create some pseudo-federal democracy there.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
18. MBMike Baker
  So that didn't, that didn't work. But the reason now for being in Syria is, yes, we, we have done a very solid job of beating back ISIS, removing their territory, and degrading their ability to operate, but we haven't stamped them out. We haven't defeated them yet. They're still there. And so we've been providing the support in, again, in the form of, uh, weapons, hardware, gear, resources, training, and most importantly, uh, com- uh, combat air operations, air assaults, and, um, that's been critically important. If we leave, I have no doubt that ISIS will find some way to rejuvenate. Maybe not in its current form but, and maybe not in the same exact locations, but they'll morph 'cause that's what they do. They just, they just find a way to adapt. And we already know what's happened in the past when we, when we left Iraq. We saw what happened with the rise of ISIS. So, (sighs) you know, I, uh, do I want to stay there forever? Absolutely not. But both sides can make a valid argument, one for staying, one for leaving. My, I think the best argument for staying in the, in the certainly short and mid-term is to ensure that Erdogan doesn't slaughter a bunch of Kurds who have been working with us, uh, honorably. Um, you know, I, I, I don't how else to say that. So we'll see what happens. I, I s-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  So the best argument to stay is to protect the people that helped us.
20. MBMike Baker
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  To protect our allies.
22. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. Yeah. I-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  So it's not in our best interest, it's in the best interest of our commitment and our agreement with them?
24. MBMike Baker
  W- well, is, is it in our national security interest to, to stay in Syria, for example?
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
26. MBMike Baker
  Look, there was this... (sighs) there's so many levels to this thing, and I'm sure right now everybody's listening going, "Oh, for fuck's sake. He's not gonna disappear down a rabbit hole." But (laughs) , but, uh, yes, I am. Uh, it, for a while there, there was this, this idea, this ridiculous pie in the sky thought that we were gonna get the Russians out of Syria. Never gonna fucking happen. Russians had, the only port for their Black Sea fleet is in Syria. You know? What, they've been there for decades and decades, along with Iran. We're ne- we, it's not gonna happen unless we wanna go to war with Russia to kick them out of Syria. That's not in our best interest. So is it in our national security interest to keep troops there to fight and try to minimize Russian involvement in Syria? I, I, I don't think so because we're not gonna shift them off that dime without going directly at them. Right? It's in their best interest to stay, and every nation acts in its own best interest. Are we gonna shift Iran? Are we gonna keep Iran from forming... Too late for that. They've already got a beachhead there that they're not gonna give up. And so you gotta set those issues aside and say, "Well, what the hell are we doing there?" Are we, are we there simply because we have to, you know, finish the fight against ISIS? Well, (sighs) you know, at some point you gotta say, you know, "I guess." I wouldn't say that we've, we've defeated them, but I think we would say, yeah, we've degraded them sufficiently that we can, we can now operate from elsewhere. You know, we can operate from forward bases in other locations where we're currently, you know, based. Great. But again, I keep coming back to the same thing, that, you know, we've, we've worked with the Kurds. Is this in our national security interest? Well, no, I guess it's not. But there's something that tells me it's the right thing to do. And, and maybe sometimes that's enough. You know, that we should, we should not let Erdogan have his way.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  And also, long term, wouldn't it be in our best interest to honor our commitment and make sure that we protect our allies so that in the future other allies would be more willing to cooperate with us because they understand that once we're committed, we're fully committed and we stay?
28. MBMike Baker
  Yeah, and we stand for something. Yeah.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  So what's the benefit of getting out? Like, the people that think we should get out.
30. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
34:11 – 40:09
Government shutdown and the border wall: trench warfare politics
1. JRJoe Rogan
  So, where we're at right now is, uh, today is day what of the shutdown?
2. MBMike Baker
  26th, I think?
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Tw- 26th.
4. MBMike Baker
  26th day.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  So, 800,000 American workers that work for the government are not getting paid. So, they're a month out. Many of these people, paycheck to paycheck. They don't have m- medical necessities. They don't have food. People are having to ration off their, their, their insulin if they're diabetic. I mean, I'm hearing these horror, horror stories. The lines at the airport are around the fucking block.
6. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  It's, it's chaos. And it seems like there's no end in sight and it seems like Trump is just content to, to s- hold this position.
8. MBMike Baker
  Well, I think both sides are content to hold their position, right?
9. JRJoe Rogan
  That seems fucking crazy to me.
10. MBMike Baker
  It is crazy. It, it's, it is (laughs) it's absolutely crazy if you think about it. And it's not just 800,000. I don't know the exact numbers, but think about all the, the contractors, right? Think about all the government contractors.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
12. MBMike Baker
  I, I-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
14. MBMike Baker
  ... it's, you know-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  They're not getting paid either.
16. MBMike Baker
  If I'm not mistaken, I don't think they're getting paid. Yeah.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
18. MBMike Baker
  Um, and so this has... And, and, you know, the administration has admitted that, "Look, we initially underestimated the impact of, of a longer term shutdown." And so they understand that. And the Democrats, you know, talk about it every minute, about how this is a terrible crisis. And so you would think that if both sides feel that way, uh, then get something done. Look, the, the, the Democrats that... Uh, they've approved in the past, recent past, many of these Democrats voted for, for f- fencing, barriers, whatever you want to call it.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
20. MBMike Baker
  But we're lost in semantics, and because the president's so hated by this, you know, this, this, this group, that, you know, they've seized on this term wall.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
22. MBMike Baker
  If he had, if he had started his campaign by saying, "We need to improve our border security and, uh, find fixes to an immigration system that is both fair and secure and efficient," if he had gone with that, it's a wordy bumper sticker, but if he had gone with that, we'd have a different conversation right now.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  We would, but maybe we'd have a different president as well.
24. MBMike Baker
  (laughs)
25. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
26. MBMike Baker
  (laughs) Yeah, that's okay. That's a good point. All right, fine. (laughs)
27. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, there's something about that build that wall, that's like the dopes are like, "Yeah, wall, I get it."
28. MBMike Baker
  Yeah, it's a wall. (laughs)
29. JRJoe Rogan
  It's so simple, build a wall. Oh yeah, like a castle.
30. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
40:09 – 49:40
Drugs, El Chapo testimony, and corruption questions in Mexico and Congress
1. JRJoe Rogan
  One of the things they've been saying too about the wall is that they wanna keep drugs from coming in, uh, illegal drugs.
2. MBMike Baker
  Mm-hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  But from this El Chapo trial-
4. MBMike Baker
  Mm-hmm.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... we're learning how the biggest drug dealer in Mexico got his drugs in. They didn't use, they didn't get it through the wall. They brought it in through mostly boats.
6. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. It's usually not, um, just mules, you know, individuals-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
8. MBMike Baker
  ... carting it across some, you know, broken part of the, of the- the border. Um-
9. JRJoe Rogan
  They brought it in through cars and hidden compartments.
10. MBMike Baker
  Mm-hmm.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  They brought it in through boats. I mean, they're, they're, you know, they basically have some people spilling the beans as to how the exact operation was- was functional.
12. MBMike Baker
  Yeah, and that's-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  And it didn't seem to involve people carrying it over the border in backpacks.
14. MBMike Baker
  And now, uh, uh, now one of Guzman's, uh, El Chapo's, uh, lieutenants is, uh, is a cooperating witness.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
16. MBMike Baker
  And he's now, (laughs) he's now claiming that the former president in Mexico, Penañeto, uh, was given $100 million, um, at the outset of his, uh, uh, term. I think it was 2012 when he started as president. So when he was president-elect, he'd already won, but he was waiting to take the seat. According to this- this Colombian trafficker who was working with Guzman, with Chapo, uh, Penañeto reached out to him, possibly through his campaign manager or however the story goes.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  My friend.
18. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. And he- and he asked for $250 million.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  (gasps)
20. MBMike Baker
  And Chapo, you know, came back with a- a- a (laughs) negotiated position that says 100 million, which was then, according to this, again, the guy's a Colombian trafficker, uh, you know-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
22. MBMike Baker
  ... how- how legitimate is he? You know. Uh, then, you know, the money was transferred to Penañeto, uh, and, you know, Penañeto's people are saying, "That's ridiculous. Look, we were the ones who tracked him down," you know, even though he escaped, you know, 48 times or whatever, he escaped, and- and, uh, but there's always been this- this talk about how Chapo's arrests were orchestrated, right? By ... and that, so that the- the- the military or the police were involved somehow, that there was a coordinated effort. And, uh, there's always been that underlying rumor. You know, is it possible? Who ... yeah, anything's possible, but-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  But if he did get $100 million, you would think El Chapo would be free. Jesus Christ, if $100 million-
24. MBMike Baker
  Yes.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  ... didn't get you free?
26. MBMike Baker
  Right.Right. Yeah, I know. And you would, yeah, you would assume that, you know, what's the upside for Chapo to, to not talk about it now, right?
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
28. MBMike Baker
  Um, but, uh, you know, eh, who knows? It's, it's-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, the president, too. I mean,, e, where does he ... Doesn't he have tax returns they could look at?
30. MBMike Baker
  (laughs)
49:40 – 1:00:40
Huawei and China’s long game: telecom infrastructure as an intelligence vector
1. MBMike Baker
  Oh, shit. Hey, we talked about... remember the last time we talked about Huawei?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
3. MBMike Baker
  It hasn't gone away.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  No, it hasn't gotten away. See he's get-
5. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  ... someone just got arrested yesterday.
7. MBMike Baker
  Two people.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
9. MBMike Baker
  Two people. Uh, so, uh, so backstory, fascinating. This is fascinating. So I... this is, this is an area I could definitely disappear down to. Chinese espionage, right?
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
11. MBMike Baker
  Uh, been going on forever. Uh, one... again, I, I, I say, you know, I talk about how there's certain things that the current administration is doing that I like. One of them is the way that they're dealing with China right now. And yes, the trade issue is buffeting the market somewhat and causing some instability. But again, previous administration, the Bush administration, Clinton administration, there's lots of, lots of pre- former presidents, uh, they all acknowledged that China, you know, pub- uh, privately, was not a, a fair trading partner. This administration is at least trying to call them out, and calling them out on the, on the, in the cyber issue too, um, on their, on their, uh, theft of intellectual property. So anyway, Huawei, um, supposedly owned, uh, by the founder and however many employees, you know, I think that... Huawei is, by the way, uh, the number one telecommunications equipment manufacturer in the world, and they're the number two seller of smartphones. Right? They, they're, they're a bigger seller of smartphones than Apple. So it's Samsung, Huawei, Apple, uh, for, uh, this. And so supposedly the company is owned by the founder, and his daughter is the chief operating officer, chief financial officer, one of those. She was arrested up in Canada, um, and she was arrested at the request of the US. She's up there on bail right now, awaiting extradition to a, uh, hearing. And the reason was because, uh, supposedly she lied about Huawei's dealings with Iran and they were busting sanctions by dealing and providing certain types of equipment to Iran. Now, uh, this, this, this past week, we've had, um, a Huawei employee, who's now been fired by Huawei, uh, in Poland, uh, arrested for espionage. And along with him is a member of the Polish Intelligence Service, right, who, uh, retired a- and, and was now working for a French telecommunications company, but was arrested also for, uh, uh, espionage related to, uh, Huawei and related to this individual who, up until just recently, was working for Huawei. Huawei claims innocence and says, "Well, we have no idea." And the founder just came out and gave this big speech and said, "I would never let the Chinese authorities tell me what to do, and I would certainly never spy on anybody using Huawei's capabilities and technology." And people are probably thinking, "What the fuck are you talking about this for?" Uh, Huawei embeds their telecommunications equipment throughout the world, right? So it's in, um, f- uh, our allies', uh, military operations, which then are connected to ours, right, in terms of communications and transfer of intelligence and information. Um, they're everywhere, and so they chose Poland. They've been in Poland for about 10 years. Poland is a very important NATO ally. So I, I, I'm, I'm taking a long time, I realize, to explain this. But what I'm trying to say is nothing happens by happenstance, right? The Chinese don't operate that way. So the Chinese authorities some time ago, years ago, looked at it and went, "Yeah, this makes sense." Right? We've got Huawei, which, by the way, the founder is a former military, uh, People's Liberation Army engineer. Um, he, um, they, they, they looked at this and they thought, "Poland, uh, that would be a good beachhead for us, all right, because they're a key element of NATO, so let's go to Poland." So they started, uh, burrowing into Poland, striking deals, and then... you know, they're basically the most important foreign, um, relationship now, uh, corporation inside of Poland. And they're fully embedded and they've had access to, uh, at this point, to NATO communications, and now the arrest of these two individuals, and people will still, despite this, and despite their past, despite their, their, their theft of information from everybody from US Steel to, uh, to Alcoa to, uh, Lockheed Martin to DuPont, all the times that they've been stealing information, people will still go, "Well I don't... you know, I don't, I don't, I don't believe it. I don't... that doesn't make any sense. I don't see why the Chinese would act that way, and I don't see why we're being so harsh on them. You know, this tariff thing is a bad idea." And my point being y- you gotta call them out. They're not gonna necessarily change their behavior, but you gotta e- raise public awareness, make, uh, our allies understand. And we're... that's what we're doing right now. We're saying, "You, you've gotta, you gotta put the brakes on this. Build a firewall. Use the other companies' telecommunications equipment." Right? Because, you know, the fact that we're tied in with our allies, with Poland and with Canada and with o- you know, that gives them access to us.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  So for someone on the outside, like myself, who's trying to look at this, and you, you say that Huawei is stealing stuff, like stealing stuff from US Steel, how are they doing that?
13. MBMike Baker
  Well, they... (sighs) I mean-The US Steel, admittedly, that was a, that was a PLA, that was a People's Liberation Army, uh, Third Department operation against DuPont and, and also against US Steel and others. So, that was a little bit different. I, I, I conflated the two, but Huawei, one of the things that they do is, by having access, uh, and- and embedding their equipment in your communications, um, infrastructure, that gives them the ability then to, uh, in, in a simple way, to tap in, right? And just-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Intercept packets.
15. MBMike Baker
  Intercept information, right, basically.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  'Kay.
17. MBMike Baker
  So, you have communications, imagine we're trading information through NATO, uh, channels, right? All they need is that one in, right? That's, it's, it's like everything else. It's like fishing, right? It's just like, uh, you know, when, when hackers, just an individual hacker sitting in somebody's basement, you know? He just needs that one avenue. He needs to get one s- just, just click on that email. That gives me the pathway in. So when, when Huawei is able to embed their technology into, you know, Polish communications, and we're now connected because of our NATO alliance, that gives them access to us, to France, to Germa- whomever. And, i- i- you know, it, it's not as if it just happened. It's not as if Huawei, from a business perspective, said, "Do you know? I bet we could sell some of our equipment in Poland. Wouldn't that be good?" The guy who was arrested, the Huawei person who was arrested was responsible for, uh, the provision of telecommunications equipment to government facilities. That was his job.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
19. MBMike Baker
  And the guy, the Polish guy, o- one of his last jobs with the intel service was, uh, communications. Uh, I mean, i- i- so I guess what I'm saying is, none of this shit happens in a bubble and it's all, it's all very well mapped out. The Chinese have a very long view on things, and they are very good at developing operations like this. And so, they've been very successful. Um, so we'll, we'll, we'll see, but it's, it's, I'm glad that the current administration, at least, is calling them out. I don't believe it's necessarily gonna change their behavior. It, you know, and we'll, we'll probably get some sort of deal where they'll claim to... Look, just a couple years ago, they agreed with President Obama to stop their cyber shenanigans, and they didn't. So they just changed the way that they did it. Um, you know, that's, that's the world we live in, but I think it is important to make a stand, right?
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. The, some of the, the tech people, um, are saying that they think it's preposterous when they were talking about the ban on Android phones. Some of the tech people say that it doesn't make any sense, but what you're saying is it goes far beyond the actual phones itself, and it's really the, the mission of the actual company itself.
21. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. I'm saying that, that there is no way that Huawei and o- and other important, um, Chinese companies, uh, are, uh, solely privately owned and/or have, uh, the ability to tell the Chinese authorities that they will not spy on their behalf.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  It's just not happening.
23. MBMike Baker
  It's just not happening. You have to, you have to go a long ways (laughs) , uh, to come up with that sort of naive viewpoint that says that a, a Chinese company is going to put its foot down and tell President Xi, "Absolutely not. We will not do anything to harm another nation's country, uh, company."
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
25. MBMike Baker
  Horseshit. They've spent, they've spent, uh, generations now, decades, uh, jumpstarting their industry and moving up the, the food chain on the global economy by hoovering up everything possible out there.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  So if someone like a, a tech wizard got ahold of one of their routers, can, have they been able to detect something in there that doesn't belong or some sort of a backdoor or some sort of a way that they could tap in? It's like, if you were, you know, you were Apple and you were sending, you know, data to Raytheon or whatever, and you're going back and forth, they could tap in through that? Has it been proven that-
27. MBMike Baker
  Mm-hmm.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  ... there's a device like that?
29. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. A former, um, uh, NSA Director, uh, McConnell, back in, uh, (sighs) 2015, I think early 2015, um, came out and NSA came out with an official statement, and it said, "Every major US corporation of any consequence has been, um, uh, attacked and exploited by Chinese, and we have never ever not found Chinese malware within their systems."
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
1:00:40 – 1:11:13
Surveillance capitalism and everyday tracking: voice assistants, location data, and smart devices
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Let me ask you this 'cause this is something that just came up, and we were trying to figure out if it's nonsense or not. My friend Adam was here the other day, and we were talking about Toyota trucks. And he didn't google "Toyota trucks" just discussing it, and he said since then, his mentions have been filled with these little advertisements for Toyota trucks.
2. MBMike Baker
  For Toyota trucks. Mm-hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  H- how does that work?
4. MBMike Baker
  Um, (sighs) well, you know how you talk to Siri?
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
6. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. Um, it, it's, it's simple voice rec- recognition. It, it's, it's a carryover from the old days of, you know, optical, uh, readers and how, you know, we all thought it was incredible that you could take a piece of paper, put it into a system, and it would, like, take that information that was on that piece of paper, and now it was on a database that you could-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
8. MBMike Baker
  ... access and manipulate.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
10. MBMike Baker
  And so, you know, voice recognition is no different in the sense that ... So if, if, if, for example, if I had this switched on and ... It happens to people on, you know, I'm sure all the time walking around their house. They'll say something and then all of a sudden Alexa will come on and go, "Oh, uh, I couldn't find a result for that, but do you wanna listen to Ella Fitzgerald or whatever?"
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
12. MBMike Baker
  Um, it's, it's always on. It's always listening, right? And you can do that with anything. Like, this TV right here, if you wanted to, if you ... If I knew that TV was gonna go into the office of the deputy foreign minister of a, uh, country hostile to our interests, I could turn that thing into a receiver, obviously, right?
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
14. MBMike Baker
  And if I could get my hands on that before delivery, that's a wonderful thing. Now I've got this in there and it's like the old days when you would have to, you know, go in on a, on an entry operation and, you know, use silent drills and put a, a, a, you know, device in the wall. Now, you know, we've delivered a TV. Now I get (laughs) now I get-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
16. MBMike Baker
  ... you know, video too. Hey, good for me. So, the, the shit's always on, you know, in a sense. And, um-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  So a regular phone that you get, if you just buy an iPhone and you have Siri turned on so where you can say, "Hey, Siri," and it, it turns on, that phone is always listening to you.
18. MBMike Baker
  Well, uh, the ... Now we're getting in over my head, but it could be. I mean, there ... Is, is it possible? Is it, is it capable of doing that? Yes. Could you do that, um, uh, as an intentional operation? Sure. Um, is it happening because Apple wants to do it and they want to get better understanding of consumer preferences and things? I have no idea. That's, that's above my pay grade. But I, I will say from an operational perspective, sure, yeah. You would, you know-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  From an operational perspective, right.
20. MBMike Baker
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  But, like, it would kind of be scandalous if we found out that Apple was-
22. MBMike Baker
  Sure.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  ... listening to everything that you say, and then they're sending them information to these companies and then they're trying to sell you whatever you were bringing up.
24. MBMike Baker
  Yeah. But it's one ... It's really ... If you think about it, it's only one step above what they do anyway.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
26. MBMike Baker
  Which is, I mean, if I go in here and I search Toyota-
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
28. MBMike Baker
  ... you know, I'm in, I'm in the same situation. I'm fucking inundated with Toyota mentions, right?
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Right. Of course.
30. MBMike Baker
  After that. So, you know, it's, it's like the next iteration of that. And I suspect that people would ... You know, some folks would be outraged, but I'll bet people would just live with it.