Joe Rogan Experience #1235 - Ben Greenfield

Ben Greenfield is a Coach, Author, Speaker, ex-Bodybuilder and Ironman Triathlete. In 2008 he was voted as the Personal Trainer of the Year by the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) and recognized as the top 100 Most Influential People in Health in 2013.

Joe RoganhostBen GreenfieldguestGuestguest

Jan 30, 20192h 22mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,020 words

0:03 – 1:01
Coffee, sourdough gifts, and why Ben won’t go full carnivore
1. JRJoe Rogan
  4, 3, 2, 1.
2. BGBen Greenfield
  1.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Hello-
4. BGBen Greenfield
  Index finger.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... Ben.
6. BGBen Greenfield
  Hello.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  What's up, buddy?
8. BGBen Greenfield
  There's a discrepancy. My, my coffee is way, way bigger than yours. (laughs)
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Uh, what's this?
10. BGBen Greenfield
  I've got, like, this 40-ounce Big Gulp French press.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes. Um-
12. BGBen Greenfield
  Versus the... Is that a Caveman?
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
14. BGBen Greenfield
  Cold brew.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Nitros.
16. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah. Those are pretty good too.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. I love them.
18. BGBen Greenfield
  Those pop the punch.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
20. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Dude, thank you so much for the bread and the macaroons and-
22. BGBen Greenfield
  (laughs) The goodies?
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. That's, that's awesome.
24. BGBen Greenfield
  They... I... I would-
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Awesome stuff.
26. BGBen Greenfield
  I would probably be morbidly obese if I wasn't an exercise freak, but, uh-
27. JRJoe Rogan
  It seems like it.
28. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah. Yeah. Jessa makes that sourdough bread and it is fricking amazing.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you do that carnivore diet thing? Did you try that out?
30. BGBen Greenfield
  No.
1:01 – 2:56
Carnivore diet mechanics: TMAO, fiber, and nose-to-tail eating
1. BGBen Greenfield
  So I did, like, a 33% carnivore diet. But, uh, there was a study actually that came out, it was just, like, two days ago, on that TMAO.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
3. BGBen Greenfield
  The, the sugar that is associated with gut damage when you're eating a, a high red meat diet.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Right. When your body-
5. BGBen Greenfield
  And-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  ... takes excess protein and it turns it into sugar.
7. BGBen Greenfield
  Right. With, theoretically, the idea being that that might be present because your microbiome is imbalanced from a diet that's too heavy in meat if you weren't getting enough fiber.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Is it a microbe... It's, it's because of your biome? I thought it was just because of glucogenesis, because y- your body has nothing but meat, your body turns it into glucose.
9. BGBen Greenfield
  No. That w- That would be something different. That, that-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, really?
11. BGBen Greenfield
  That conversion to glucose is a different sugar than the TMAO.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
13. BGBen Greenfield
  So what the TMAO is, is that's gonna be present if you aren't getting enough fiber or if your biome-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Ah.
15. BGBen Greenfield
  ... is imbalanced. But what this study, uh, a couple of days, looked at was people who were eating, like, a fish and egg and plant-rich diet, and they had high levels of TMAO too, but they weren't deleterious. They're actually protective-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Because of the fiber?
17. BGBen Greenfield
  ... because they had the fiber.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm. Interesting.
19. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah. I mean, you could do... You could do a carnivore diet if you were... There, there's a few populations that do this, like in, in Spain. I forget the name of the sausage, but they'll, like, eat the, they'll eat the ruminant. Like, they'll eat the, the intestine of the ruminant-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
21. BGBen Greenfield
  ... and get their grasses and their fibers and their plants literally by eating the stomach of the animal, but-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Like a cat.
23. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah. Yeah. And it, it's the same issue with, like, uh, you know, methionine. Too much of the amino acid methionine from just eating red meat would be deleterious, but if you're getting glycine and some of these other amino acids, if you're eating, like, nose to tail, right?
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm, yeah.
25. BGBen Greenfield
  Bone marrow-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
27. BGBen Greenfield
  ... bone broth, all the organ meats-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Organ meats, yeah.
29. BGBen Greenfield
  ... you know, head cheese, braunschweiger. Just, like, all these different mixes of meats. I think that would be the way to do a carnivore diet.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
2:56 – 8:52
Anecdotes vs bloodwork: why carnivore can feel amazing
1. JRJoe Rogan
  There's a lot of people that are proponents of that as well. And then there's a bunch of people that are... You know, it's interesting because you've got a... There's a disparity between the anecdotal accounts of health and wellbeing and then blood work.
2. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  The blood work these folks get is not impressive. Um-
4. BGBen Greenfield
  You mean the people on the carnivore diet?
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
6. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  From what I've seen. I haven't seen anything where I see all their inflammatory markers down, their testosterone up. I haven't seen anything where it's looking really good.
8. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah. T- And high blood glucose is another thing that you see.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  But I should say that there haven't been a lot of s- tests done.
10. BGBen Greenfield
  Not a lot. There's-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  It's not like a lot of people are publishing stuff on it, but the anecdotal evidence is amazing. It's, like, it's really weird. Like, uh, my friend Jordan Peterson, he's had a tremendous success with it.
12. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Lost a lot of body weight. He says he's in his intellectual prime. He said he's never felt better in terms of his energy levels. And that guy is, he is so rigid and disciplined with it. All he's eating is meat with salt on it and he drinks water. And that is it.
14. BGBen Greenfield
  Absolutely. Well, if you think about it, it's an elimination diet, right?
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
16. BGBen Greenfield
  It's like an autoimmune diet-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
18. BGBen Greenfield
  ... where you can say, "Well, I, you know, I don't know what's giving me trouble, soy or wheat or, or dairy or what have you, so I'm just gonna stop eating all that stuff and switch to primarily meat."
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
20. BGBen Greenfield
  The problem is that it's, uh, you know, I, I, I don't wanna call anybody out and, and, and s- and call them lazy, but it's almost like kind of a very easy lazy-esque approach. Because rather than figuring out how to do... You know, like that, that sourdough bread. It's slow fermented. The rye and the wheat are in there, but all the phytic acid that would normally inhibit your ability to absorb minerals is predigested by the lactobacillus and all the bacteria in the wheat. So you've got a bread that's lower in a glycemic index and it's, it's more easily digested. Some of, some of the-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Which is why both rye and sourdough-
22. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  ... are more healthy for you.
24. BGBen Greenfield
  Right. And you put the rye in it 'cause it lowers the glycemic index. And then you've got the, um, uh, what's it called? The, uh, the... I, I forget the term. Uh, it's like a gluten-digesting enzyme that gets activated with the lactobacillus. So that's a smart bread. I mean, it takes fricking 24 hours to... It's, it's not 24 hours, but it's, like, 15 minutes over 24 hours that it takes to make it. That's an intelligent approach to food preparation, right? That's the way that our ancestors or many of the Blue Zones would have treated their foods. Fermenting, soaking, sprouting, slow food. And you can take a lot of these things that would result in, you know, you're talking about Jordan Peterson. I know his daughter does this as well-
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
26. BGBen Greenfield
  ... Mikaela Peterson. They use that elimination diet, you know, which is the carnivore diet, to clear up a lot of those autoimmune issues, but you could also just render food more digestible or switch to an elimination diet or an autoimmune diet for eight weeks or 12 weeks, something like the carnivore diet, heal the gut, and then return back to a more all-inclusive eating pattern that allows you to eat, you know, dairy, wheat, plants, et cetera. All these things that would normally damage the gut if the gut is actually leaky.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  So what are the, like... What- what's the process? Like, what is happening when they go on this very strict elimination diet and they're just eating meat? Like, what is happening to their gut that allows them to have all these pretty, pretty significant health benefits? A lot of loss of weight, increase of energy-
28. BGBen Greenfield
  Right.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  ... autoimmune issues. Like, Jordan had some, um, some pretty significant gum issues.
30. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
8:52 – 11:30
Personalized nutrition and ancestry ‘cold spots’
1. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah, and a big part of it, I mean, this just returns to diet personalization and customization as a whole.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
3. BGBen Greenfield
  You know, we live in an era where you can self-quantify pretty easily with genetics and you can find out what ancestry you came from, what blood markers that you have, what your gut microbiome looks like. And, uh, I don't think we talked about this on the last show, but there's this idea of eating according to your ancestry.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
5. BGBen Greenfield
  And the concept of what are called cold spots, like areas around the world where people have a genetic susceptibility to have certain diseases that they don't actually develop. Those diseases don't actually manifest because of their traditional diet. Like, you look at, like, the Icelandic population that carries the genes that would render them more susceptible to something like depression or seasonal affective disorder. But their diet is very rich in omega-3 fatty acids and DHA, which we know can protect against those disorders. And, and you take, take the Icelandic population and you uproot them and put them in the context of a Westernized diet, and all of a sudden depression and SAD manifests, so you could-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  That's interesting.
7. BGBen Greenfield
  ... say the same thing for like, uh, Cameroon, Cameroon, Africa. Higher than normal risk for colon cancer, but they're eating a diet that's-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Why is it-
9. BGBen Greenfield
  ... high, that, that's high in fiber and that-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Why is it higher than normal risk?
11. BGBen Greenfield
  I don't know. It's a genetic susceptibility.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
13. BGBen Greenfield
  But, but the idea is that that population probably figured out at some point in human history that if they eat a lot of plants or they eat a lot of fiber, all of a sudden people don't have as many issues with their colon, right? And then you take that same population again, strip out the fiber, put them on a Westernized diet, and you get a large portion of the African American population developing colon cancer, um-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  That's crazy about the seasonal affective disorder, and you gotta wonder-
15. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  ... how would that affect people that live in Seattle, the Pacific Northwest, that are dealing with-
17. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... constant rain. I wonder if that would have some sort of an impact on them.
19. BGBen Greenfield
  Probably even more if you come from that population. I mean, I'm on the Spokane side, but-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
21. BGBen Greenfield
  ... you know, I'm, I'm out in the middle of the forest. I get sun from maybe 10:00 to 2:00, and I'm on a north-facing slope and I work indoors a lot of the time. You know, I'm typing on my computer, uh, you know, I'm, I'm blogging and, and so I- I don't get a lot of sun exposure, but that's where, you know, all these newfangled light panels and head-worn light devices and things come in that were actually developed for seasonal affective disorder that actually work pretty well just to keep your mood up if you're working indoors and you don't get sunlight exposure.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Right, but Spokane is a different environment, right? You're not dealing with the constant rain that they're dealing with-
23. BGBen Greenfield
  No.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  ... on the actual coast.
25. BGBen Greenfield
  No, the precipitation builds up on the, on the mountains and then dumps back on in Seattle. Spokane doesn't get as much-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, I mean, it still must be... You must get much more than you get in California, or Southern California at least. But, uh, it's, uh, it's supposed to be very beautiful out there.
11:30 – 12:33
Spokane/Coeur d’Alene: beautiful nature, heavy metals, and detox tangents
1. BGBen Greenfield
  It's, it's gorgeous. So I'm about 25 minutes from Coeur d'Alene-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, really?
3. BGBen Greenfield
  ... and I, yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, okay.
5. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  That's supposed to be amazing.
7. BGBen Greenfield
  So it's like-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  I've never been-
9. BGBen Greenfield
  Coeur d'Alene's beautiful. I used to go over there and I raced the Ironman, and they, they'd have that in Lake Coeur d'Alene. It's an iconic race just because, I mean, the, the mountains, the lake, everything is just gorgeous.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  I saw pictures of the lake where people were taking photographs of the bottom of the lake, like from 100 feet. 100 feet deep of water you could see the bottom of the lake. It's that clear.
11. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah, yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, that is insane.
13. BGBen Greenfield
  But it's kind of funny because it's actually polluted 'cause of all the mines that they have around there.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
15. BGBen Greenfield
  Like, there's a lot of metals in it 'cause the Coeur d'Alene feeds into the Spokane River-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Ah.
17. BGBen Greenfield
  ... and your, your allotment of fish that you're supposed to eat from the Spokane River is, like, one a year.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  What?
19. BGBen Greenfield
  Like, like, it's that high in metals. So I mean, I, I don't eat any. I don't want... I don't choose them up and go down there and-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  No kidding. That's awful.
21. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah, yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  God damn it. That, that-
23. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah, but it's a beautiful lake.... I mean, it's-
24. JRJoe Rogan
  But what is the allotment of fish that you're supposed to eat from the lake? Is it similar?
25. BGBen Greenfield
  I, I don't know. I don't know. But if I, if I went to Coeur d'Alene and I spent a lot of time swimming there, I'd probably spend some time in the infrared sauna too.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh. (laughs)
27. BGBen Greenfield
  Sweat some of those metals out.
12:33 – 17:19
Infrared vs dry sauna: depth of heat, longevity studies, and ‘suffering’ preferences
1. JRJoe Rogan
  So let me ask you this. What's the benefit of an infrared sauna versus traditional sauna? Is there a benefit?
2. BGBen Greenfield
  (lips smacking) So the, (sighs) the idea is it's cooler. You know, I... Do you have an infrared here?
3. JRJoe Rogan
  No, where are you going?
4. BGBen Greenfield
  Right. So you walk into the infrared, it's like 155 to 158 degrees, most of them.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
6. BGBen Greenfield
  There's a couple that'll go up to, like, 170. (inhales deeply) Even though the air is cooler, the actual photons of light that are being released by the panels just... You're, you're surrounded by infrared panels while you're in there. Those penetrate more deeply into tissue. So you wind up getting a deeper sweat. You sweat for a longer time. You can stay in there longer because it's not quite as hot. But, uh, you look at, like, the studies out of Finland.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
8. BGBen Greenfield
  Right? These, these studies that show four to five year lifespan increases from a, from a weekly sauna protocol of, you know, I think it's, like, four times a week for 20 to 30 minutes. Uh, and the, and the significant drop in dementia and Alzheimer's and a lot of these, these mortality risk factors. And you look at the studies that have been done in athletes where you get almost a, an erythropoietin, like, like a blood doping effect from sauna exposure when done post-workout, right?
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
10. BGBen Greenfield
  You stay in there for 20 to 30 minutes post-workout. All of these were done in a dry sauna, but-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. That's why I use a dry sauna.
12. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Uh, as per Rhonda Patrick's recommendation.
14. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  I just got that 'cause she said there's no real studies like that on an infrared.
16. BGBen Greenfield
  There's a few metal that... So they, they've analyzed metal and detoxification in some of these infrared saunas. And they have found that, that you release more through your sweat. You get a deeper sweat. So if your goal is something like detoxification, then theoretically-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  But how is that even possible?
18. BGBen Greenfield
  ... an infrared will work better.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Like when I'm in that, I'm fucking drenched.
20. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, how could I get more-
22. BGBen Greenfield
  Uh-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  ... out of that?
24. BGBen Greenfield
  Have you tried, like a, like, tried like a 30-minute infrared versus a-
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
26. BGBen Greenfield
  ... 30-minute dry?
27. JRJoe Rogan
  I have. Um-
28. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  I, uh, I'm an idiot, so, uh, I don't feel like I'm suffering as much, so I don't like it. (laughs)
30. BGBen Greenfield
  When you're in the infrared, you don't feel like you're suffering as much.
17:19 – 20:31
Cryotherapy and Upgrade Labs gadgets: Vasper, BFR cuffs, and quick-hormone spikes
1. BGBen Greenfield
  Do you ever get in the, in the cryo after you do the sauna? You go straight to cryo?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  I do sometimes. Uh, but most days, no. Most days I do either or. Yesterday I did cryo.
3. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
5. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah. I've, I've been doing cryo every day 'cause I'm staying down at the Hilton and they have a, a cryotherapy chamber there.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, nice.
7. BGBen Greenfield
  But I'm a bigger fan of the cold water, the cold water immersion.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Wait a minute, the Hilton has a cryotherapy chamber?
9. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah, they've got a cryotherapy chamber. They've got, they've got a bunch of, uh-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  If somebody works it.
11. BGBen Greenfield
  They have, like, this thing called UpgradeLabs in, like, the basement of this, uh, this Hilton.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
13. BGBen Greenfield
  And they've got, like, a cryo. They've got a infrared sauna. They've got... So I've j- I've just been going down there every day and, and working out. My workout this morning, actually, I did this machine. They've got a machine called a, a Vasper. Have you seen this before?
14. JRJoe Rogan
  No.
15. BGBen Greenfield
  You put, like... It's got cold cuffs. You, you know, kaatsu training, like, blood flow restriction training, right?
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm, yeah.
17. BGBen Greenfield
  So you put cold cuffs on your arms and then you put cold cuffs on your legs. And it increase the millimeters of mercury until you're, basically you get less blood flow to your arms and your legs. And then it's one of these full body exercise devices, right? So you're moving your arms and your legs like an elliptical trainer.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
19. BGBen Greenfield
  You're barefoot and the whole thing is cold. So it's pumping cold water through the blood pressure cuffs on your arms and your legs. And then it's got cold water back behind you on the, uh...
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Here it is right here. We're watching-
21. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... this, uh...
23. BGBen Greenfield
  ... and it- and by the way, this- this thing is not gonna make you an athlete. Like, that's not the purpose of a- of something like this. It's-
24. JRJoe Rogan
  What is the purpose of it?
25. BGBen Greenfield
  Just general fitness. You know, you're- you're getting cold and when you take off the blood pressure cuffs, what happens is you've got a bunch of lactic acid trapped in the muscle as you're- as you're moving. And typically, you're doing like 30 seconds as hard as you can go, so you might go, I mean, pretty heavy wattage, like 600, 800 watts for 15 to 30 seconds and then you recover. And when you finish and you take those cuffs off, you get this amplification in growth hormone, testosterone, and based on some of the research they're talking about now, stem cell mobilization.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
27. BGBen Greenfield
  So they- and it's like this- this super quick 21-minute workout. I actually wanna get one for my house. Um-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  And how long is the amplification of testosterone and growth hormone and all that stuff?
29. BGBen Greenfield
  I don't know.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, how long does it last for?
20:31 – 24:36
Brain and longevity interventions: photobiomodulation, TBI protocols, and DIY IVs
1. BGBen Greenfield
  I mean, I'm a- I'm a huge fan of that. I'm a fan of- of like hyperbaric oxygen therapy. Um, ketosis definitely works, uh, that- these- these light devices that you wear on your head now, they've got a lot of research coming out on something called photobiomodulation for TBI and these things produce, uh, hertz frequencies, at a 10 to 40 hertz range. You place them on your head, typically there's like a probe that goes into your nose and they've got new research coming out on this for restoring blood flow to the head, increasing your alpha brain wave production, your gamma grip- brain wave production. Very cool devices. Um-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  So what does- what does the probe up your nose do?
3. BGBen Greenfield
  Uh, it- it delivers, uh, a wavelength of light that is supposed to activate part of the mitochondria that's called cytochrome c oxidase. And when you activate that, you get increased mitochondrial activity, you get increased blood flow, you get increased production of nitric oxide. And this kind of returns to what I was talking about with seasonal affective disorder, where you can use a lot of- a lot of these new things that are designed to deliver infrared light or light to the body to increase mitochondrial density or to increase blood flow or to increase nitric oxide. And people are now using this for TBI and concussion and stem cells as well.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
5. BGBen Greenfield
  They- they've got a... Actually, last time I was on the show, we were talking about how when I got that concussion in Austin-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
7. BGBen Greenfield
  ... I did a self-administered infusion of sugar alcohols. I used mannitol and then I followed that up with stem cells 'cause I had my stem cells stored down in Florida and also in this lab called Forever Labs in Berkeley. And I followed that up, I chased it with a stem cell injection because when you inject sugar alcohol into your bloodstream, it renders your blood-brain barrier more permeable and then the stem cells can cross over through the blood-brain barrier.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Whoa.
9. BGBen Greenfield
  But now with the-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Whoa. Whoa. Wait a minute. Hold on. Slow down. So this su- y- you're- how are you- what are you doing with sugar alcohol? How are you administering it?
11. BGBen Greenfield
  Intravenously.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  How- (laughs)
13. BGBen Greenfield
  In- in intravenous mannitol solution of sugar alcohol.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  You're doing this yourself?
15. BGBen Greenfield
  I do this myself, but you can get this done by a doctor too.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  And when you're doing it, like how do-
17. BGBen Greenfield
  I re- I recommend you get it done by a doctor, yeah.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  It sounds like a good idea to do.
19. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Now what- what kind of dosage are you using?
21. BGBen Greenfield
  Of mannitol?
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
23. BGBen Greenfield
  I don't remember. It wa- it was- it was what I was advised to do by the doc who- who taught me this protocol.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  So-
25. BGBen Greenfield
  I don't remember how much it was, but it- it was- it was like a-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  You're setting up your own IV.
27. BGBen Greenfield
  ... it was like a- like a vial. Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Okay.
29. BGBen Greenfield
  I do- I do the same thing with NAD every week. I do a- a weekly NAD injection.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Every week?
24:36 – 30:34
NAD, NMN/NR, and the anti-aging arms race (plus ‘young blood’ ethics)
1. BGBen Greenfield
  You know, it's interesting though, I s- I started to listen to your podcast with David Sinclair.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
3. BGBen Greenfield
  ... on the- on the car ride over, and he's talking about this NMN stuff-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
5. BGBen Greenfield
  ... which supposedly when orally administered simulates a lot of what NR, nicotinamide riboside, which is one thing that a lot of people are taking for anti-aging, and NAD, which is what we were just talking about, administered via either, i- in most cases it's IV. There's a couple companies doing like an oral NAD version. But supposedly MA- NMN, uh, I don't know if Sinclair has any human studies coming out on this right now, but he... or- or at least released. But he's done rodent studies and shown that it's like exercise in a bottle.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
7. BGBen Greenfield
  The NAD, from what I understand though, and this returns to the TBI concussion piece, crosses the blood-brain barrier easily, or more easily than NMN or NR. So if you were doing it for like a cognitive or a neurological effect you may wanna choose NAD. Sounds to me like from the research I've seen if you were doing it for the exercise effect, maybe you'd choose NMN or NR.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm, interesting. So maybe-
9. BGBen Greenfield
  The anti-aging effect of it, (laughs) they don't even know in many cases h- all the pathways on which these things are working, but most of them are related to these sirtuin pathways, right, like sirtuin-activating compounds that actually allow your mitochondria to repair more quickly or give your body more antioxidants. So, the idea is they probably all have a pretty good effect on anti-aging.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  And when you're doing it, are you pushing yourself? You say you're doing it once a week.
11. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Are you doing it yourself? Are you pushing it?
13. BGBen Greenfield
  The IV? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, and h- how much time do you give yourself?
15. BGBen Greenfield
  To actually do the NAD?
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, yeah.
17. BGBen Greenfield
  If I've got 20 minutes, I'm happy. Like if- if I have to compress it into 10 minutes, it- it hurts.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
19. BGBen Greenfield
  Like I- I like to at least allow for 20 minutes. And then, uh, you follow it up in most cases with like an IV cocktail, like- like a- like a Meyers cocktail, vitamin cocktail.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm, why so?
21. BGBen Greenfield
  And supposedly- supposedly that... it does a few things. Supposedly i- enhances your stem cell mobilization or the- or the activity of stem cells and allows the ND to be absorbed into the cells more easily.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
23. BGBen Greenfield
  So you- you basically... I mean the way I do it is I use like just a butterfly needle and you do the NAD administration, and then you just unscrew the- the end of the- the butterfly needle line, and then you put the vitamin cocktail in and follow up with a vitamin cocktail, which takes like 30 to 60 seconds and then you're done.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm. And why do you do it once a week?
25. BGBen Greenfield
  To feel good.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  No, but why- why once a week? Why not twice a week? Why, you know, why not?
27. BGBen Greenfield
  The idea is you're- you're supposed to maintain your levels. There's even some evidence and- and it... you know, this is kinda similar to testosterone, that long-term use may suppress your body's own NAD production.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, really?
29. BGBen Greenfield
  So if you're gonna start to do it, great, but you may want to realize that this is something you need to do regularly.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
30:34 – 43:25
Joint repair tools: hydrodissection, ozone/placental extract, exosomes, and peptides
1. BGBen Greenfield
  The, um, the other one that I did that worked very well on my knee, 'cause I have some meniscus issues on my left knee-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
3. BGBen Greenfield
  ... was I did what's called a nerve hydrodissection. Have you heard of this before?
4. JRJoe Rogan
  No.
5. BGBen Greenfield
  ... hydrodissection is a protocol where they take, uh, like a liquid and they use the liquid to act like the scalpel or the knife that a surgeon would use to kind of remove adhesions, like scar tissue adhesions, or separate a nerve that's causing pain or discomfort, or lack of mobility in a certain joint. But when they do a nerve hydrodissection, they don't have to use like, you know, something like they'd use in prolotherapy, like sugar water-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
7. BGBen Greenfield
  ... or regular water. Uh, what I had done, and this was at a clinic called Bio Reset in, uh, in San Jose with Dr. Matt Cook down there, he went in and did a nerve hydrodissection and he used ozone and a, a placental cell. It wasn't like a culture-expanded placental cell, which is what I understand to be illegal in the US, but just, like, a regular placental extract. He did that into my knee and my knee went from, like, 25% to 100% in a couple of weeks.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
9. BGBen Greenfield
  And that, that protocol was called nerve hydrodissection. They use ultrasound imaging to, to basically visualize where the needle is going into the knee. They identify the area where the adhesion or the scar tissue is. They inject it right there and then that, I mean, it's like a 10-minute-long procedure.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Now, this is for only a buildup of adhesion in scar tissue? What about for people that, you know, might need-
11. BGBen Greenfield
  Well-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  ... a scoping?
13. BGBen Greenfield
  ... it was developed- yeah, it was developed for nerve pain.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
15. BGBen Greenfield
  And what they found was that it actually seems to cause some kind of a release of the scar tissue, followed by an increase in the blood flow, which is difficult to get in some areas of the knee.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Right, especially the meniscus.
17. BGBen Greenfield
  So, so yeah, I mean, uh, I would- I- if I ever get to the point where somebody wants to scope my knee or something like that, I would, I would definitely consider doing that treatment first.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
19. BGBen Greenfield
  'Cause it worked very well and it was just quick and easy.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  I had a meniscus issue and I got exosomes shot into there. I've had it done three times now.
21. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  And, uh, every time I've done it, I've experienced a, a good benefit from it, but then I beat the shit out of it and I think I gave it not enough time to heal up before I started-
23. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  ... pounding again. I would give it, like, a week off, then start running again.
25. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  But now I'm gonna give it a full six weeks with, uh, no pounding, no running hills, nothing crazy. And I've s- experienced just in the two weeks since the procedure a very significant decrease in pain, no inflammation, decrease in discomfort. I have to, like, try to make it feel weird now.
27. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  I have to, like, go out of my way. And it seems like every week, that's more and more difficult to do and range of motion's increased. Uh, I basically can go all the way down with my ass to my ankles w- no problem. You know, I bend all the way down and back all the way up with no discomfort, no weirdness.
29. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah. I kinda question the one thing, 'cause I've asked myself this before and I don't know if you have, like, when you get a protocol like that done-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
43:25 – 49:22
Muscle memory science and doping implications in combat sports
1. BGBen Greenfield
  So, (sighs) uh, all right, so squats and muscle building, uh, did you see that Rhonda Patrick tweeted that study about mice and myonuclei and how when they, when they dope mice, they actually, they- they never actually lose the muscle's myonuclei.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
3. BGBen Greenfield
  Like, those don't actually ever disappear. Like not even just-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  So-
5. BGBen Greenfield
  ... when you dope, but just when- when you lift, period, like-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Muscle memory-
7. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  ... essentially-
9. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah, you have-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  ... which we've already known, right? But now-
11. BGBen Greenfield
  Built-in muscle memory, yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  But muscle memory's always been sort of an anecdotal idea.
13. BGBen Greenfield
  Well, muscle memory has been, in many cases, just based on, uh, motor unit recruitment. Like, meaning, like, a- like- like, my wife, she ran for University of Idaho, and when I go out running with her still, even though she doesn't train, she's just got faster leg turnover, she's got better form. Like, her body just remembers that. The same thing with a swimmer, right? I'll- I'll do a triathlon, somebody who swam in college but hasn't swam in 10 years will kick my ass just because they have that muscle memory-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
15. BGBen Greenfield
  ... in terms of which- which motor units to recruit when.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Sure.
17. BGBen Greenfield
  But this latest one was basically the idea that you retain actual myonuclei in the muscle. Like, they thought for a long time that those just disappeared and- and went away once you detrain, but it turns out that they're all still there. So as soon as you start training again, you build muscle more quickly, and furthermore, and th- and this was kind of, like, the political part of it, is if you've done some kind of, you know, illegal performance-enhancing procedure or steroids or doped or whatever, you actually would have a higher concentration of micronuclei or myonuclei available. And there- there was a study-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  That makes sense.
19. BGBen Greenfield
  ... even leading up to that, and this was, I think this was, like, 2013, like, this was a while ago, where they took mice and they gave one group testosterone and the other group didn't get it, and then they spent six months off testosterone. I don't remember how long they were on it, but they spent six months off it, and then they took those mice and they trained them with the training protocol. And the mice that were on the testosterone but were no longer on it had a 30% increase in muscle mass compared to the other mice that only had a 5% increase on it. So once again, th- and this was probably related to that myonuclei thing that just came out in this recent study, so it turns out that, A, you should, you should lift, like, when you're young, 'cause you can build all these myonuclei that just basically hang around in your body, and then B, when they, like, ban somebody from sport for doping and then they come back and start to compete in that sport again, they still have an advantage.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm. Well, that- that has huge implications for MMA-
21. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... 'cause it's, that's the big debate right now. How long should someone get suspended for and for how long, you know, how long afterwards should they be considered enhanced?
23. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  You know? Like, the- they're giving people some pretty significant suspensions now for steroids, like two years, but, you know, there's this Jon Jones case that I'm sure you're aware of. Are you aware of this?
25. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Where he's testing positive for the metabolite for, a- a long-term metabolite for a very small dose. He's never tested positive for a short-term metabolite, which-
27. BGBen Greenfield
  For testosterone?
28. JRJoe Rogan
  No, it's not testosterone. It's, um, what is the stuff? Turanibol? Yeah.
29. BGBen Greenfield
  Mm-hmm.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  And essentially it's a tainted supplement and it's not, it doesn't have any performance-enhancing benefit in terms of, like, the- the amount of, the dosage that he's tested positive for. But it's lingering-
49:22 – 1:22:46
THC/CBD for performance and recovery: reaction time, mTOR, entourage effect, and new cannabinoids
1. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.... now what, what's the deal with marijuana in the M- in MMA or-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  It's pretty much legal now. Um, the, they don't care if-
3. BGBen Greenfield
  In-season, out-of-season?
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes. Yeah, it's fine. They just-
5. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  ... they, they've lowered the, um, acceptable level, or the, they've raised it rather, like, what you could have in your bloodstream. You basically just can't be high the day of the fight.
7. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah. Yeah. And that's another interesting one. I mean, that acts, especially THC, acts on a lot of these mTOR pathways. You know, th- that's, that's the same thing with a lot of these anti-aging compounds, right, like rapamycin or, you know, metformin, to a lesser extent, acts on that mTOR pathway and inhibits it.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
9. BGBen Greenfield
  Right? But again, it's, it's short term with something like marijuana and you also get this painkilling effect. And there was... (sighs) I, I forget if this was a study or if it was, if it was, uh, like anecdotal, but it's almost like a higher thrill-seeking effect. Like, the endocannabinoid system, when stimulated, shuts down some of your, your, your sense of fear when it comes to experiencing a new adventure.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Really? That's interesting.
11. BGBen Greenfield
  And so you actually, you actually go adventure seeking more. And when you look at, like, ultra-runners, um, anybody who's competing in a, a non, uh, complex activity in which they might have already developed the ability to be able to be in the zone, right? They've put in their 10,000 hours of practice and they're able to just kind of check out and go into automatic mode. When you combine that with the pain-quelling effects of something like a, you know, in most cases, like a THC-CBD combo is what a lot of, of ultra-runners are using. I'm not sure what, what they'd use in, in MMA right now. But ultimately, you get a good effect, but, but the loss of reaction time and the loss of the ability to be able to perform complex tasks, which they've proven in, like, flight simulation studies, dictates that it's still not that great of a drug if you're gonna be doing complex tasks.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Here's the question though. When they're talking about reaction studies-
13. BGBen Greenfield
  Mm-hmm.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  ... are they talking about reaction studies for people that are acclimated to taking marijuana-
15. BGBen Greenfield
  Mm-hmm.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  ... or are they talking about it with people where they take someone who's a sober person and they introduce them to marijuana and there's this overwhelming effect of it?
17. BGBen Greenfield
  Mm-hmm.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Because one of the things that happens-
19. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  ... to people that aren't accustomed to THC is the freakout effect-
21. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... where they're just like o- they're not comfortable with the experience. After a while, the way it's described, and again, this is all anecdotal, but by people that are accustomed to it, they say you just get good at being high. And see, the reaction time thing, I don't buy, because a lot of strikers, a lot of, uh, kickboxers, they train w- while they're on marijuana. It's very common. A lot of boxers-
23. BGBen Greenfield
  I believe it. I mean, well, a study on reaction time was done on pilots.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  And see, I just don't-
25. BGBen Greenfield
  And there's a f- there's a few more blinky lights in the cockpit than, than a mat, so-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Sure, sure.
27. BGBen Greenfield
  ... there might've been more going on.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Sure, but, uh, that's the... The question is are they experienced stoners? Or-
29. BGBen Greenfield
  Yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  ... are these people that are freaking out-

Episode duration: 2:22:52

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Coffee, sourdough gifts, and why Ben won’t go full carnivore

Carnivore diet mechanics: TMAO, fiber, and nose-to-tail eating

Anecdotes vs bloodwork: why carnivore can feel amazing

Personalized nutrition and ancestry ‘cold spots’

Spokane/Coeur d’Alene: beautiful nature, heavy metals, and detox tangents

Infrared vs dry sauna: depth of heat, longevity studies, and ‘suffering’ preferences

Cryotherapy and Upgrade Labs gadgets: Vasper, BFR cuffs, and quick-hormone spikes

Brain and longevity interventions: photobiomodulation, TBI protocols, and DIY IVs

NAD, NMN/NR, and the anti-aging arms race (plus ‘young blood’ ethics)

Joint repair tools: hydrodissection, ozone/placental extract, exosomes, and peptides

Muscle memory science and doping implications in combat sports

THC/CBD for performance and recovery: reaction time, mTOR, entourage effect, and new cannabinoids

Get more out of YouTube videos.