Joe Rogan Experience #1236 - Jack Dorsey

1. 0:04 – 1:48

   From group text to global platform: Twitter’s original intent and early surprises

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      Three, two, one (hands clap) . Boom. Hello, Jack.

   2. JDJack Dorsey0:09

      What's up?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      Nice to meet you, man.

   4. JDJack Dorsey0:11

      Nice to meet you finally.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Yeah, I keep this sucker like a fist from your face.

   6. JDJack Dorsey0:13

      Got it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      It's always good. First of all, dude, um-

   8. JDJack Dorsey0:16

      (clears throat) .

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      ... you started a company... When you started Twitter, when you guys first started, did you have any ide-... L- there's no way you could've had a- any idea what it would be now.

   10. JDJack Dorsey0:25

       No.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       But, uh, one of the things I always try emphasize with people when they're people like, "Oh, Twitter's crazy." I'm like, "How could it not be crazy?" There's never been anything like it before. Like imagine trying to predict the kind of im-... Uh, the president of the United States uses threa- Twitter to threaten other countries.

   12. JDJack Dorsey0:43

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       I mean, (laughs) who the fuck saw that coming? Nobody saw that coming.

   14. JDJack Dorsey0:47

       Not us. Not us.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       What did you think it was gonna be when you first did it?

   16. JDJack Dorsey0:51

       Well, you know, we were building this thing for ourselves, and that's how... (sighs) Tha- that's how everything starts. We wanted to use it. We wanted to, um... We wanted to, you know, stay connected with each other. We, we-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       Like a group text almost.

   18. JDJack Dorsey1:04

       Like a group text. We loved our phones. We loved, um, technology. We, we actually started this as a Hack Week project out of a failed company called Odeo. It was podcasting.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       I remember that.

   20. JDJack Dorsey1:17

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       I remember Odeo.

   22. JDJack Dorsey1:17

       Super early on. We were, uh, we were really creative folks, but we weren't that passionate about where podcasting was going in our particular, um, domain. And we just got a lot of competition early on. iTunes just released their podcast directory. But we knew we wanted to work together. We knew, um... We loved this idea of one button publishing. We loved this idea of collaboration. We loved this idea of, uh, being anywhere and being able to

2. 1:48 – 4:33

   Inventing the conventions: @mentions, hashtags, retweets as user-driven features

   1. JDJack Dorsey1:48

      share what was happening. That was, that was the idea. I mean, tha- that was it, and that's what we wanted it to be. And I think the most beautiful and also sometimes uncomfortable aspect of Twitter is it, um... We really learned what it wanted to be, and the people helped create it. Like everything that we hold sacred now, the at symbol, the hashtag, the retweet, those were not invented by me or the company. Those were things that we discovered, things that we discovered people using, and we just observed it and we, we noticed what they were trying to do. They were trying to talk with one another. They were trying to, um, collect tweets around topics with the hashtag.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:35

      Has anybody figured out when the first use of hashtag something was created?

   3. JDJack Dorsey2:39

      Yeah, it was, um... It was actually our lead designer, uh, Robert Anderson, who leads our design of the Cash App, um, hired him for Square, uh, later on. But, uh, he was the first one. He was actually communicating with his brother, and, uh, he put @Buzz. His brother's name is Buzz. And it just kinda spread. It wasn't en masse, but people were doing it. But what was m- most interesting is not what they were doing but what they wanted to do with it. They wanted to address each other, and that s- that changed the company completely. That changed the service, because it went from just broadcasting what's happening to conversation, and to being, being able to address anyone publicly out in the open, which came with it a lot of power and also a lot of issues as well.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:32

      Yeah, the, the use of hashtags, like, uh, l- looking up hashtag, you know, Fry Fest or hashtag-

   5. JDJack Dorsey3:40

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:40

      ... you know, any time there's something weird that's in the news. That's, uh, that's such a unique way to find things, but to go on Twitter and to, to utilize that, it's, uh... I mean, it's, it's interesting that you're f- that this guy just did it just to contact his brother.

   7. JDJack Dorsey3:55

      Well, that wa- that was the at symbol. The hashtag was this guy Chris Messina and he-

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:58

      Oh, good for you.

   9. JDJack Dorsey3:59

      ... was trying to, he was trying to tag, um, he was t- trying to tag around topics that he was tweeting about. And, again, that spread. All we did was made it easier. We made it more accessible. We, we enabled everyone to do it. Uh, with the at symbol, we made a page that collected all mentions of your name. With the hashtag, we allowed people to search, uh, immediately, so you could tap on the keyword and you would see everyone talking about that or tweeting about that specific hashtag. So, these things were just emergent behaviors that we didn't predict and they became the lifeblood of the service.

3. 4:33 – 7:06

   Why one platform dominates: network effects, “global consciousness,” and discomfort

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:33

      Well, what's fascinating to me about something like Twitter or even something like YouTube is that there's not a lot of other ones like it. There's just this one thing.

   2. JDJack Dorsey4:42

      There's one.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:42

      Like how does that happen?

   4. JDJack Dorsey4:43

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:43

      Where this one thing sort of gets adopted by everybody and takes over and then just becomes this overwhelmingly massive platform. I mean, there's really...

   6. JDJack Dorsey4:53

      (clears throat) .

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:53

      There's Vimeo and there's a few other video s- services, but nothing on the scale of YouTube, and it's the same thing with Twitter. There's nothing on the scale of distributing information in a quick, short, 280 character form like that.

   8. JDJack Dorsey5:06

      We, um... I, I, I don't think we could plan for it. I don't think we could necessarily build for that. I, uh... Someone said recently to, uh... We just, you know, gathered a bunch of our leadership last week in Palm Springs for an offsite and someone said recently that Twitter was, um, discovered. And I think what's behind all that is that it, it, it hit something foundational. It hit something essential. And my co-founder Biz likes to say that Twitter can never be un-invented. It's here. It changed everything. The, the use of it has been revolutionary. And it's just this simple idea of, you know, if you could text with the entire world, if you could actually reach anyone in the world, or anyone could see what you're thinking, which I think is also the beautiful thing about-... about text and the, and the medium. You can actually get at someone's raw thoughts and anyone in the world can see that instantaneously. It becomes this subconscious. It becomes this, like, global consciousness and it, uh, it gets to some really deep places in society and, and some of those places are pretty uncomfortable.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:22

      Well, it also gets to some really deep places psychologically. Um, there's, there's a sum- there's a weirdness to it, right? There's a weirdness-

   10. JDJack Dorsey6:29

       Definitely weird.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:29

       ... to sending text, particularly a- anonymously. You know, and there's so many accounts that are just an egg, you know?

   12. JDJack Dorsey6:38

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:38

       And so many accounts where they're clearly designed. If you g- like sometimes someone will tweet something mean to me and I'm like, "Hmm, I wonder what this person's up to." So I go to their site and it's just them tweeting mean shit at people-

   14. JDJack Dorsey6:49

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:49

       ... all day long. Like it's probably some angry person at work and they're like, "I'm just gonna find people and fuck with them all day." Like-

   16. JDJack Dorsey6:55

       Yep.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:56

       When did you realize or when did you realize, I'm sure you're aware of it, when did you realize that this was almost out of your control in terms of like the scale of it?

4. 7:06 – 12:56

   Gaming the system: timelines vs public insertion points and incentive design

   1. JDJack Dorsey7:06

      Hmm. Uh, there wasn't, there wasn't one moment. There wasn't one moment that, um, it just felt completely resonant. Uh, it just, it's, it's unfolded into the next thing and the next use case and it just keeps surprising us with how people are, are using it. We... You know, it definitely, um... Recently, I think we've identified some of the areas of the service that we need to pay a lot more attention to. Um, Twitter is unique in that it has two main spaces. One, which is your timeline and those are the people that you follow. And, uh, you know, when you follow someone, they've earned that audience. And then it has this other world where anyone can insert themselves into the conversation. They can actually mention you and you'll see that without asking for it. You can insert yourself into hashtags, into, uh, search, um, and these are areas that people have taken advantage of and these are the areas that people have gamed our systems to, in some cases, artificially amplify but also just to spread a lot of things that weren't possible with a velocity that they're now possible before.

   2. JRJoe Rogan8:29

      Now, when this is all happening, what-what's the conversation like at Twitter when you're recognizing that this is happening, that people are kinda gaming the system?

   3. JDJack Dorsey8:37

      (clears throat)

   4. JRJoe Rogan8:37

      Like what do, how do you guys, how do you mitigate it? What-what's the discussion?

   5. JDJack Dorsey8:43

      Well early on it was, um, it was pretty surface level, like how we change some of the app dynamics. But more recently, we're trying to go a lot deeper in, in asking ourselves the question, when people open Twitter, what are we incentivizing? What are we telling them to do when they open up this app? We may not explicitly be doing that, but there's something, um, that we're saying without, um, being as clear about it. So, what does the like button incentivize? What does the retweet incentivize? What does the number of followers and making that number big and bold incentivize? So, I'm not sure what we should n- I'm not sure if we should incentivize anything, but we need to understand what that is and I think, you know, right now, we, we do incentivize a lot of echo chambers because we don't make it easy for people to follow interests and topics. It's only accounts. We incentivize, um, a lot of outrage and ho- hot takes, um, because of the, some of the dynamics in the service not allowing a lot of nuance in conversation earlier on. Um, uh, pseudonyms, uh, this, uh, you know, this, uh, ability to not use your real name incentivizes some positive things, like it allows for whistleblowers and journalists who, uh, might fear for their career or even worse, their life in, under certain regimes. But also allows for people, like the example you mentioned, of just random fire and, uh, you know, spread of abuse and harassment throughout. So, those are the things that we're looking at and how do we, how do we enable more of the conversation to evolve? How do we increase the credibility or reputation of accounts? Um, how do we identify, uh, credible voices within a particular domain? Um, not just through this very coarse grain blue verified badge, but, uh, if you're an expert in a particular topic, how do we recognize that in real time and show that so that we can provide more context to who you're talking to and if you want to engage in a deeper conversation or just ignore, mute, or block them.

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:07

      But what is the conversation like while you're at work? Like when you're realizing-

   7. JDJack Dorsey11:10

      (clears throat)

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:10

      ... that all this stuff is happening, um, w- and you're realizing that now, I mean, particularly because the president uses it so often. It's such a, a, I mean, it's his preferred platform for communicating with the people. I mean, even more so than addresses.

   9. JDJack Dorsey11:24

      Yep.

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:24

       It's really, it's very strange. What's the conversation like in the office when you're trying to figure out, "Hey, what's our responsibility here? Like how are we supposed to handle this?" Or- or- or how do we, I mean, you're, you're... In some ways, what Twitter's doing is it- it- it's really kind of, it's flavoring the public narrative. It's flavoring the way we communicate with each other-

   11. JDJack Dorsey11:47

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:47

       ... in- in this, in our culture, worldwide.

   13. JDJack Dorsey11:51

       Yeah, I mean, the, the conversation has definitely evolved. Um, I think in the past, we just got super reactive. Um, we were reacting to all the negative things that we were seeing and that led to a lot of short-term thinking. Um, more recently, we've just looked...... much deeper. We, we don't react to the, to the present day. We, we look for some of the patterns. And, um, you know, we, we have a, we have a company that, uh, is not just serving the people of this particular country, the United States. This is global. We have global leaders all around the use- all around the world using us in, in different ways. Some, you know, more, um, with a higher velocity. Some, uh, recognize more the power. Um, some put out statements. Some lead conversations. But it's looking at all those dynamics and not trying to, um, hyper-focus on any one particular one, because if we do, we're only building it for one portion of the population, or only one perceived, uh, present-day crisis.

5. 12:56 – 17:22

   Policy under pressure: ISIS, law enforcement, civil society, and transparency gaps

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:56

      Well, what I'm, what I'm tryna get at was like, okay, like, when things come up, like say if you find out that there's people from ISIS that are using Twitter, and they're using Twitter and posting things, like, what is the conversation? Like, how do, what do we do about this? Do we let, leave this up? Do we, we recognize this is free speech? Do we only take it down if they're calling for murder or hate speech? Like, what ... How do you handle that?

   2. JDJack Dorsey13:23

      Well, it, it evolves. I mean, because like, we first saw ISIS when the world saw ISIS, and we needed to change our policy to deal with it. Um-

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:31

      What was the f- what was the initial reaction to it? So once you realized that people from ISIS were making Twitter accounts, and they were trying to recruit people and doing all these things, what was the, what was the thought process?

   4. JDJack Dorsey13:42

      Oh, it was a question, like, what are, what are we gonna do about this?

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:44

      Yeah.

   6. JDJack Dorsey13:44

      We, we, we haven't experienced this before. We need to-

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:46

      Nobody has. I mean, you're essentially-

   8. JDJack Dorsey13:48

      No one's-

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:48

      ... pioneers.

   10. JDJack Dorsey13:48

       No. Yeah. But there, there are people who have experienced in different forms and different mediums. So we reach out to our government partners, for instance, or law enforcement partners. Uh, we reach out to our peer companies to ask if they're seeing the same things that we're seeing. Um, we have a bunch of civil societies that we, uh, talk to, uh, to get their take on it as well, and we try to balance, uh, that across, um, you know, various spectrums, whether it be, uh, you know, uh, more, uh, organizations that are more focused on preventing online harassment all the way to the ACLU and the EFF, who are protecting the First Amendment online. So we w- we try to get as many perspectives as possible, take that, and then make some informed decisions. But also realize that we're probably gonna make some mistakes along the way, and all we can do to correct some of that is just be open about where we are. And that's probably where we failed the most in the past, is we just haven't been open about our thinking process, um, what led to particular decisions, how our terms of service evolve. The terms of service, as an area in our industry, is just, uh, it's a mess. No one reads 'em. You, you know, you-

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:04

       Right.

   12. JDJack Dorsey15:04

       ... sign up for these services, and you quickly hit accept.

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:08

       Yeah.

   14. JDJack Dorsey15:08

       And we expect people to read these rules of the road, but they haven't read them. And-

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:16

       Have you ever read them?

   16. JDJack Dorsey15:17

       I have read them. (laughs) I've read them.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       You've read your own.

   18. JDJack Dorsey15:19

       I've-

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:19

       Have you read Facebook's?

   20. JDJack Dorsey15:21

       I haven't read Facebook's.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       Yeah.

   22. JDJack Dorsey15:22

       I'm not on Facebook.

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:23

       But you probably ... You're not on it?

   24. JDJack Dorsey15:23

       I'm not on Facebook.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:24

       Wow. Fuck Facebook, right?

   26. JDJack Dorsey15:25

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:26

       No, I'm just kidding. What about Instagram? You ever read theirs?

   28. JDJack Dorsey15:30

       I was, uh, I was in the first 10 users of, uh, of Instagram.

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       Really?

   30. JDJack Dorsey15:35

       Uh, Kevin was a intern. Kevin Systrom was an intern at, uh, Odeo. And, um, I was one of the first investors of Instagram and love the service. I don't think I've ever read their terms of service.
6. 17:22 – 21:23

   Doxing and viral pile-ons: the Covington case as a 48-hour incentive failure

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:22

      So what do you do, like, like, here's a good for instance. This situation with this, uh, young kid who had the MAGA hat on and the Native American gentleman who was in front of him banging a drum, and then people are calling for this kid's name. They want his name. They want his address, including Kathy Griffin. Like, how do you, how do you handle something like that?

   2. JDJack Dorsey17:42

      Well-

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:43

      'Cause that's essentially request for doxing.

   4. JDJack Dorsey17:45

      Yeah. And, and, and that's, that is a new vector that we haven't seen en masse. I mean, this, these are, these are the cases that bring up entirely-

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:52

      Right.

   6. JDJack Dorsey17:53

      ... new things. So, we have to study it. We have to see how, uh, we reacted, what happened with the network. Um, but this goes back to the incentives. Like, we are incentivizing this very quick-... reaction-

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:07

      Mm.

   8. JDJack Dorsey18:07

      ... and it's taking away from some mo- some more of the, like, considered work that we need to do to really diagnose what's happening in the moment. And it was... It's such an interesting case study to see, um, how that evolved over just 48 hours.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:23

      Yes.

   10. JDJack Dorsey18:24

       And-

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:24

       That's one of the most fascinating news cycles, or stories in the news cycle, in quite a while-

   12. JDJack Dorsey18:29

       It is.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       ... because it's nuanced. There's, there's many different levels to it.

   14. JDJack Dorsey18:32

       It's extremely nuanced. Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:33

       And a lot of, like, really knee-jerk reactions.

   16. JDJack Dorsey18:36

       Totally, and... But we helped that.

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:40

       How'd you help it?

   18. JDJack Dorsey18:41

       Well, it, it's just that's how some of the dynamics of the service work.

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:44

       But is that how-

   20. JDJack Dorsey18:45

       And those are the things we can change.

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:46

       ... some of the dynamics of the service or is it the way t- people choose to use the service? Like, if you're a thoughtful- (clears throat)

   22. JDJack Dorsey18:52

       ... person, you wouldn't just... Like, f- for instance, the original image that was distributed, uh, came from an account that's now banned, right? Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:00

       And so, it was, it was discovered that that c- account was a troll account.

   24. JDJack Dorsey19:04

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:05

       What... How does that happen and what, what was the, the thought process behind that? 'Cause th- the image that they, they posted was a legitimate image, it really did happen, it, it b- it was in... It was a part of an actual occurring event, so wh- why do you ban the person or the troll account that put it up?

   26. JDJack Dorsey19:22

       I don't know about this particular case, but it's likely, um, that it was found... Uh, there's, there's a lot of what you see on the surface of Twitter, and some of the actions that we take on the surface, but where we spend a lot of our enforcement is actually what's happening underneath. So, in many cases, we have, um, trolls or people, like the case that you mentioned, whose sole purpose is just to harass, or abuse, or spread, uh, particular information. And oftentimes, these accounts might be connected, or they start one account, that gets banned, they start another account, but we can actually see, um, this through a network lens, and we can actually see some of those behaviors. So, that might have been one of the reasons. I'm not sure in, in, in that particular case. But, you know, what the-

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:16

       How do you know? Do you know because of IP addresses? Do you know because of the, the, the l-

   28. JDJack Dorsey20:20

       A variety of things.

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:21

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JDJack Dorsey20:21

       Like, it could be, it could be trying to use the same phone number or same email address, IP addresses, um, device IDs, all these things that we can use to, to judge what's happening within the context. So, we do have a lot of occurrences of suspending or temporarily suspending accounts because of activities across accounts.
7. 21:23 – 23:22

   Echo chambers and “follow topics”: designing for context using hashtags and interests

   1. JDJack Dorsey21:23

      Providing more context. Like, uh, in an example, let's, let's take Brexit, for example.

   2. JRJoe Rogan21:27

      Okay.

   3. JDJack Dorsey21:28

      So, um, if I followed a bunch of accounts that... Like, like Boris Johnson, who was constantly giving me information about reasons to leave, I would probably only see that perspective. I-

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:43

      Nigel Farage.

   5. JDJack Dorsey21:44

      Yeah, and those, and those... A lot of folks just will not follow accounts that have a completely different perspective or a different influence. Uh, a number of people do, hopefully journalists do, but most people won't do that work. So, this is the only tool we give people: follow an account. If, however, during that time, you followed the hashtag, you followed the hashtag #voteleave, 95% of the conversation and the tweets you see are all reasons to leave. But there's a small percentage that shows a different perspective and that shows a different, um, a different reasoning. We don't make it easy for anyone to do that. And that is a lost-

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:27

      Easy for anyone to follow the alternative-

   7. JDJack Dorsey22:30

      Follow the hashtag.

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:30

      ... p- perspective?

   9. JDJack Dorsey22:30

      Follow the hashtag, follow a topic, follow-

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:32

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JDJack Dorsey22:32

       ... follow an interest. And because of that, um, we help build an echo chamber.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:38

       Right.

   13. JDJack Dorsey22:38

       And, and something that doesn't really challenge any perspective. And not to say that we should force that upon people, but we don't even make it easy for people to do in the first place. The, the way you do that today is you go to this... the Explore tab, you look, you search for a hashtag, or you tap into a hashtag, and you can see all the conversation. But that's, that's work.

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JDJack Dorsey23:00

       And most people just won't do the work. They'll stay in their timeline, they'll see what they need to see, and I can certainly imagine, you know, why, if I'm just following a bunch of people who have the exact same take on this, it just continues to embolden, embolden, embolden. And they see nothing of a different perspective on the exact same, uh, the exact same situation.

   16. JRJoe Rogan23:21

       What's interesting to me-

   17. JDJack Dorsey23:22

       (clears throat)

8. 23:22 – 32:53

   Twitter vs Instagram/Facebook: one surface, messy conversation, and the power of text

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:22

      ... is the difference between Twitter and Instagram. E- e- e- essentially, it's not just the photographs. What's weird that has happened was... There's, there's shitty people on Instagram as well. I mean, there's, there's a lot of arguments and things along those lines, but they don't overwhelm the, the initial post. Whereas, with Twitter-

   2. JDJack Dorsey23:43

      It's on a different surface.

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:44

      Yeah. It's-

   4. JDJack Dorsey23:45

      It's... Instagram is a, is a post. I mean, a... It, it's a post. It's not really eliciting conversation. It's eliciting comments.

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:51

      But it's not just that. It's difficult to follow the conversations.

   6. JDJack Dorsey23:54

      I don't think there is a conversation. It, it's-

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:56

      Well, sometimes there is. Sometimes people are going back and forth about a particular subject that's discussed in the r- initial-

   8. JDJack Dorsey24:01

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:01

      ... post. But it's not, it's not very clear.

   10. JDJack Dorsey24:05

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:05

       Whereas with, with Twitter, it... It's only conversation.

   12. JDJack Dorsey24:09

       It's only conversation. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:10

       But even if there's a photograph, even if somebody posts-

   14. JDJack Dorsey24:12

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:12

       ... a photograph on Twitter and has conversation under it, the photograph seems to be, like, of secondary importance.

   16. JDJack Dorsey24:17

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:17

       B-

   18. JDJack Dorsey24:17

       It's super, super fluid and, and super messy, too.

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:21

       Yeah.

   20. JDJack Dorsey24:21

       But the thing is, every... On Instagram, I...... or any, any blog, you have this, this post, this statement, and you have comments underneath. Whereas with Twitter, everything is on the same surface.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:34

       Right.

   22. JDJack Dorsey24:35

       It's all one surface.

   23. JRJoe Rogan24:36

       Yeah, my friend, Kurt Metzger, likes that about Facebook. He says because in Twitter, he goes, "I post something and then all these fucking morons post something." And he goes... (laughs) 'Cause, you, you know Kurt, he's very animated. He's like, "And their shit looks like, just like my shit. It's all together, all piled up." He goes, "But if I post something on Facebook..." He goes, "I have this whole thing." Like, this is the original-"

   24. JDJack Dorsey24:59

       You have more control.

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:59

       "... statement. And then underneath it, yeah, you fucking say whatever you want."

   26. JDJack Dorsey25:02

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:02

       "But no one's, no one's reading that."

   28. JDJack Dorsey25:04

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:04

       Like, they're reading the original initial post, and it's clear that there's a differentiation between-

   30. JDJack Dorsey25:09

       Yeah.
9. 32:53 – 52:12

   Moderation philosophy: conduct over speech, AI downranking, and the censorship question

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:53

      The thing that gets strange, though, is who's to decide? You know, there's the-

   2. JDJack Dorsey32:59

      (coughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:59

      ... there's this, there's this concept, there's a discussion, I should say, where, uh, some people believe that things like Twitter or Facebook or any forum where you're having a public discussion should be considered almost like a public utility. Like, anyone has access to the electric power. Even if you are... You know, even if you're a racist, you still can get electricity. And some people think that you should have that same ability with something like Twitter or the same ability with something like Instagram. Obviously, this is... We're in uncharted territory.

   4. JDJack Dorsey33:33

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan33:33

      And you are, you are in uncharted territory.

   6. JDJack Dorsey33:35

      Totally.

   7. JRJoe Rogan33:35

      I mean, it just, no one has been there before. So, who makes the distinctions? When you see someone w- that are, that's saying something that you might think is offensive to some folks but not offensive to the person who's saying it... Maybe the person who's saying it feels like they need to express themselves and this is important to say, and w- how do you decide whether or not this is a valid discussion or if this is, air quotes, "hate speech," which is a w- You know, there's some things that are hate speech, and then sometimes people use the term hate speech, and it's just a cheap way to shut down a conversation.

   8. JDJack Dorsey34:10

      Yeah. We... So the simple answer is we look at conduct.

   9. JRJoe Rogan34:14

      Hm.

   10. JDJack Dorsey34:14

       We don't, we don't look at the speech itself, we look at conduct. We look at how the tool is being used. And you're, you're right in that, like I th- I think when people see Twitter, they see and they expect it to be a public square. They can go into that public square, they can say whatever they want, they can get on a pedestal, um, and people might gather around them and listen to what they have to say. Some of 'em might find it offensive and they leave. The difference is there's, there's also this concept of this megaphone, and the megaphone can be highly targeted now-

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:48

       Hm.

   12. JDJack Dorsey34:48

       ... with Twitter as well.

   13. JRJoe Rogan34:49

       Right.

   14. JDJack Dorsey34:49

       So it's not, it's not the, it's not the speech, it's how it's amplified.

   15. JRJoe Rogan34:54

       So what do you do with... Like, say, let- let's, let's say there's someone in the media, uh, let's say it's a prominent feminist, and then you have a bunch of people, or let's say just one person, and their Twitter feed is overwhelmingly attacking this prominent feminist.

   16. JDJack Dorsey35:07

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan35:08

       Just constantly attacking her, calling her a liar, calling her this, calling her that. When do you decide this is harassment, when do you decide this is hate speech? When, like, how do you... I mean, this is, this is-

   18. JDJack Dorsey35:17

       We look at the context.

   19. JRJoe Rogan35:18

       ... an absolute... This is a fictional account, right?

   20. JDJack Dorsey35:20

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan35:20

       Fictional person we're talking about. But in this, for instance, what, what would dictate something that was egregious enough for you to eliminate them from your platform?

   22. JDJack Dorsey35:32

       Well, that's a, that's a, that's a heavy action, so that's the last resort. Um, but we look at the conduct. We look at... Oftentimes, a- as you said, like, the, the probability of someone who is harassing one person, it's highly probable that they're also harassing 10 more people.

   23. JRJoe Rogan35:51

       Right.

   24. JDJack Dorsey35:52

       So we can look at that behavior. We can look at how many times this person is being blocked or muted...

   25. JRJoe Rogan35:58

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JDJack Dorsey35:58

       ... or, uh, reported. And based on all those, um, all that data, we can actually take some action. But we also have to, we have to correlate it with the other side of that, because-... people go on and they coordinate blocks as well, and they coordinate harassment and they, and they coordinate, I'm sorry, not harassment, but reporting, um, uh, reporting a particular account to get it shut down and to, uh, to take the voice off the service. So, these are the considerations we have to make, but it's, it's, it all starts with conduct. And o- oftentimes, we'll see coordinated conduct, whether it be that one person opening multiple accounts or coordinating with multiple accounts that they don't own to, you know, go after someone. And there's a bunch of vectors. People use retweet for that, uh, they quote-tweet for that a lot as well. Like, you know, they'll quote-tweet a, a tweet that someone finds and they'll say, "Look at this idiot. Twitter, do your thing." And then just this mob starts and goes and tries to effectively shut that person down. Um, so there's a bunch of tools we can use. The permanent suspension is the last resort. One of the things that we can do is we can downrank the replies. So, any of these, any of these behaviors and conduct that look link- linked, we can actually, uh, push farther down in the reply chain. So it's all still there, but you might have to push a button to actually see it. You might have to s- show more replies to actually see, uh, this harassing account or what might look like harassing language.

   27. JRJoe Rogan37:36

       And is this manually done, or is this-

   28. JDJack Dorsey37:38

       No, no, no, no. This is-

   29. JRJoe Rogan37:39

       ... is this-

   30. JDJack Dorsey37:39

       ... this is all, this is all automated.
10. 52:12 – 57:26

    Newsworthiness and leaders: Trump, public interest exceptions, and internal debate

    1. JRJoe Rogan52:12

       What has been the one thing that came up that was perhaps w- the most controversial? Like I know (laughs) my friend Sam Harris was trying to get you guys to ban Donald Trump.

    2. JDJack Dorsey52:22

       (laughs)

    3. JRJoe Rogan52:22

       He was saying, "If you follow your terms of service..."

    4. JDJack Dorsey52:24

       I just did a podcast with him actually as well.

    5. JRJoe Rogan52:26

       (laughs)

    6. JDJack Dorsey52:26

       Should come out today or tomorrow.

    7. JRJoe Rogan52:28

       He's, uh, he's-

    8. JDJack Dorsey52:29

       (clears throat)

    9. JRJoe Rogan52:29

       ... he's a fascinating guy, Sam Harris. I love him to death. But what he was trying to do was like saying, "Hey, he's threatening nuclear war." Like he's saying, "Hey Korea, my bombs are bigger than your bombs." Like what else does the guy have to do to get you to remove him from the platform? When you guys saw that, what, what was your reaction to that? And was there an internal discussion-

    10. JDJack Dorsey52:51

        (clears throat)

    11. JRJoe Rogan52:51

        ... about actually banning the President of the United States?

    12. JDJack Dorsey52:54

        Well, so the, so two things there. One, it was the context that presidents of this country have used similar language in different mediums. They use it on radio, they use it on television. It's not just through Twitter. And even if you were look, uh, you were to look at the presidency of Obama, it wasn't exactly the same tone and the s- exact same language, but there were threats around the same country, and we have to take that, that context into consideration. So the second thing is that we need... The, the most controversial aspect of our rules and, uh, our terms of service is probably this clause around (clears throat) public interest and newsworthiness-

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:41

        Hm.

    14. JDJack Dorsey53:41

        ... where, um, powerful figures or public figures might, uh, be in violation of our terms of service. But the tweet itself is of public interest.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:54

        Yes.

    16. JDJack Dorsey53:55

        There should be a conversation around it. And that is probably the thing that people disagree with the most, um, and where we have a lot of internal debate. But we also have some pretty hard lines. If we had a global leader, including the president of the United States, make a violent threat against a private individual, we would take action.... we, we always have to balance that with, like, is this a... is this something that the public has interest in? And I, I believe generally the answer is yes. It's not gonna be in every case, but generally the answer is yes, because we should see how our leaders think and how they act.

    17. JRJoe Rogan54:36

        And essentially, it-

    18. JDJack Dorsey54:37

        That informs voting. That informs-

    19. JRJoe Rogan54:39

        Yes.

    20. JDJack Dorsey54:39

        ... the, the conversation. It informs whether we think they're gonna... they're doing the right job or we, we think that, you know, they should be, uh, they should be voted out.

    21. JRJoe Rogan54:47

        Well, it- it's very important to see how someone uses that platform and when someone uses it the way he uses it, and then becomes president and continues to use it that way, that's when people are like, "What?"

    22. JDJack Dorsey54:59

        He's been consistent.

    23. JRJoe Rogan55:00

        (laughs)

    24. JDJack Dorsey55:00

        I think he, I think he joined in, in 2009, 2012.

    25. JRJoe Rogan55:03

        Yeah.

    26. JDJack Dorsey55:03

        And you look at all of his tweets all the way back then and it's pretty consistent to today.

    27. JRJoe Rogan55:07

        Yeah. I mean, he likes to insult people on Twitter.

    28. JDJack Dorsey55:11

        (clears throat) He does.

    29. JRJoe Rogan55:11

        It's fun for him.

    30. JDJack Dorsey55:12

        He does. He does.
11. 57:26 – 1:01:01

    Bots, trolls, and human verification: biometric signals and the limits of detection

    1. JRJoe Rogan57:26

       You know, and it's... H- how do you know how many accounts are bots? How many... How do you know-

    2. JDJack Dorsey57:34

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan57:34

       ... how many accounts are from a Russian troll farm?

    4. JDJack Dorsey57:36

       Yeah. So-

    5. JRJoe Rogan57:37

       Like, how do you know that?

    6. JDJack Dorsey57:38

       So this is a real challenge and, and something that we're, uh, we're trying to wrap our, our, our heads around. But, like, one of the things we're trying to do is, like, let's scope the problem down a bit and, like, let's use the technology we have available to us, like face ID, like touch ID, like-

    7. JRJoe Rogan57:53

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JDJack Dorsey57:53

       ... the biometric stuff to identify the humans. Let's identify the humans first.

    9. JRJoe Rogan57:57

       So how do you use that? Because if face ID is not really avail- is it available to you guys? Do you know... You just leak, leaked something that you shouldn't have told them?

    10. JDJack Dorsey58:03

        We... No, no, no, no, no. We, we haven't, we haven't used it yet, but you can use it for things like-

    11. JRJoe Rogan58:08

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JDJack Dorsey58:08

        ... is this-

    13. JRJoe Rogan58:09

        Like...

    14. JDJack Dorsey58:09

        ... a human operating this? It's, it's-

    15. JRJoe Rogan58:10

        For Apple Pay. You can use it for that, so-

    16. JDJack Dorsey58:13

        It's, it's completely locked into the local device. We don't have access to images of your face or whatnot, but the operating system can tell us that this is the legit owner of this phone and therefore, it is, it is human. And technology always has to change. People will find ways around that and whatnot. But if we go the opposite direction and, and we look for the bots, the problem with looking for the bots is people assume that they just come through our API, but the scripting has become extremely sophisticated. People can script the apps, can script the website, and make it look very, very human.

    17. JRJoe Rogan58:49

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JDJack Dorsey58:50

        So we're, we're going after this problem first trying to identify the humans as much as we can utilizing these technologies. No- this is, is live right now. These are, these are considerations that we're making and, and trying to understand, like, what the impact would be and, and, uh, how we might evolve it. But we, we need to because that information would provide context for someone, like, this is an actual human that I'm talking to and I can invest more time in it or I can just ignore the thing because it's meaningless.

    19. JRJoe Rogan59:19

        Now, is Apple willing to share that with you? I mean, when you-

    20. JDJack Dorsey59:23

        Well-

    21. JRJoe Rogan59:23

        ... when you're talking about biometrics, fingerprints, or face, face ID?

    22. JDJack Dorsey59:26

        No, no, no. Not the, not the data. Just the operating system verifies that, you know, this-

    23. JRJoe Rogan59:31

        That there's an individual that used it.

    24. JDJack Dorsey59:32

        It's an individual and it's unlocking.

    25. JRJoe Rogan59:34

        Right.

    26. JDJack Dorsey59:34

        You know, like, like, um, you know, when, when you use the, um... Our, our cash app uses this, right? So Square's cash app, um, when you want to make a transfer to someone, when you wanna send someone money, or when you wanna buy Bitcoin, we turn on face ID and you verify that you are you and you are the owner of the phone and, and then it goes. We don't get images of your face. We don't, uh, see who you are.

    27. JRJoe Rogan59:58

        Oh, that's what you want me to think. I know what you s-

    28. JDJack Dorsey1:00:01

        (laughs)

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:00:01

        Yeah. (laughs)

    30. JDJack Dorsey1:00:03

        That's all locked down by the operating system and that's-
12. 1:01:01 – 1:03:35

    Regulation and understanding gaps: educating lawmakers and defining the regulator’s role

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       When you saw Zuckerberg testifying and, and, and realizing, like, how this platform is being used and what are the dangers of this, and then you see these senators that really don't know what the fuck the technology is or-

    2. JDJack Dorsey1:01:15

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:01:16

       ... it's w- it, it really highlights how we're entering-

    4. JDJack Dorsey1:01:19

       There's a gap.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:01:20

       ... into this really ... Yeah. Well, not just a gap, a gap in-

    6. JDJack Dorsey1:01:23

       (clears throat)

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

       ... the critical understanding of how these things work and what they are in, in terms of, like, how these really important politicians, uh, who are the ones who are making these decisions as to whether or not someone has violated laws or whether or not something should be curbed or regulated.

    8. JDJack Dorsey1:01:41

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:01:41

       And they don't really even understand what they're talking about.

    10. JDJack Dorsey1:01:44

        No. I mean, it, it ... There's, there's a-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

        So few people do.

    12. JDJack Dorsey1:01:47

        Because they're not, they're not using it directly. They're not using it in the way that people are using it every single day and-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:53

        Right.

    14. JDJack Dorsey1:01:53

        ... they don't have the same experience that people have every single day. And, you know, in, in terms of regulatory and, and our regulators and our governments, I ... You know, we ... I think the conversation is often about how regulators will come in and start writing rules and, and setting expectations for how companies or services might behave. But there's a role for the company to educate, and there's a role for the company to educate on, like, what technology makes possible, whether it be positive and, and also some of the negatives that, that become possible as well. So, I, I think we have a role to, to help educate and to, and to help make sure that we're, you know, really ... We're, we're, we're pushing towards what I think the job of regulator, regulator is, which is, number one, protect the individual, number two, level the playing field, and make sure that those two things are not compromised by special interests trying to protect their own domain or profits or, or, uh, dominance within a particular market.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

        What do you mean by level the playing field?

    16. JDJack Dorsey1:02:57

        Level the playing field-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:02:58

        (laughs)

    18. JDJack Dorsey1:02:58

        ... so that, uh, an individual has the same opportunity, uh, that, uh, someone else might have or a company might have.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:03:07

        So, uh, okay. So, like, anybody can have a Twitter account.

    20. JDJack Dorsey1:03:10

        So, anybody could ... Anyone can have a Twitter account and, you know, they have, uh, at least a, you know, an equal opportunity to contribute to it. And whatever they do with it will change the, change the outcome. Some people might become very popular because they're saying stuff people wanna hear. Some people won't see any following whatsoever because they're not adding anything original or interesting or, or, uh, or, or different in terms of perspective.

13. 1:03:35 – 1:16:57

    Where communication goes next: decentralization, permanence, and alternative platforms like Gab

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:35

       Where do you see this going? When you look at these kind of emerging technologies, not ne- necessarily emerging anymore, established now, but still, you know, a, a, a new thing in relative terms of human history, where do you see this going? And does it get more intrusive? Does it get deeper into our lives? Like, what, what ... When you look at new technologies like augmented reality and things along those lines, do you see new possibilities and new things that could make things even more complicated?

    2. JDJack Dorsey1:04:05

       I mean, yeah. I mean, we, we just have to assume that we, we naturally use more and more technologies, more and more things become open, more and more things, uh, increase of velocity. There's more communication, not less. Like, thi- this is not going away, and it's just-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:04:23

       Right.

    4. JDJack Dorsey1:04:23

       ... it's just a question of what we do with it. So where, where I want it to go is, and where I want Twitter specifically to go, is I ... You know, I, I think it's existential right now that we s- we, we have global conversations about some things that will become crisis, climate change being one of them. There's no one nation state that's going to solve that problem alone. Economic disparity being another. The, the rise of AI and, uh, job displacement and, and just, like, us offloading decisions to these, to these algorithms. Those are things that, that no one nation, no one community is going to solve alone. It takes the entire world to do so. So, I wanna make sure that we're doing our best to get people seeing these global conversations and ideally participating in them, because it, it helps, it helps us solve the problems faster. I, I just believe that more open society allows us to solve problems much faster.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:05:24

       So, you, in many ways, see Twitter as having some sort of a social responsibility in this discussion.

    6. JDJack Dorsey1:05:30

       Totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I, I think a big part of it is, like, right now, like, how are we, how are we ensuring that there is more healthy contribution to that global conversation? And, you know, I, I, I just think it's so, it's so critical that we start talking about the things that are facing all of us, not just one nation. I, I do think, you know, that that's where our current model really puts the world at a disadvantage because it incentivizes more of the e- echo chambers which lead to things like nationalism instead of taking the broader picture and looking at what's happening around the world to all people, to all of humanity.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:06:13

       What do you do, though, to balance the conversation? Or what responsibility do you think you have to balance the conversation in terms of the way conservatives view it versus the way liberals and progressives view it? I mean-

    8. JDJack Dorsey1:06:23

       Balance it. I mean show-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:06:25

       I mean, but is there-

    10. JDJack Dorsey1:06:25

        ... d-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:06:25

        Is there a responsibility? Do you have a responsibility? Or is it just leave th- it up to the people and let them figure it out the same way they figured out hashtags and, and everything else?

    12. JDJack Dorsey1:06:35

        I-I think we have a responsibility to make it easier to do that.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:06:38

        Easier? How so?

    14. JDJack Dorsey1:06:38

        Right- right now, it's just, it's just too hard. Most- most people will not-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:06:43

        Venture outside of their bubble?

    16. JDJack Dorsey1:06:43

        ... you know, have a particular mindset. They will, they will not venture out. They will not break their bubble.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:06:47

        Right.

    18. JDJack Dorsey1:06:47

        Um, but if you... Because it's- it's right now on the service, it's just so hard to do that. I, I can only follow accounts. And I have to, I have to look into... And just imagine like, you know, trying to get an understanding of your own politics. People can't just look at your bio. They have to look through all your tweets, they have to listen to a bunch of your podcasts and whatnot, and that's a bunch of work. If we shift it more towards topics and interest, at least we have, um, the potential to see a bunch more perspectives. We see-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:07:20

        How do you do that though?

    20. JDJack Dorsey1:07:22

        The simplest thing is like follow a hashtag, follow a topic. Like why can't you just follow Warriors Twitter or, uh, um, you know, NBA Twitter? Why do you have to go and find all the coaches and the players and- and the team?

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:07:37

        So-

    22. JDJack Dorsey1:07:38

        We can do that. We- we can help make that a whole lot easier for folks.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:07:42

        So something like Brexit or something like that. So if you go to #Brexit, you're gonna get the whole conversation.

    24. JDJack Dorsey1:07:48

        Yup.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:07:48

        You're gonna get the pros, the cons, the left, the right, the whole deal, the centrists.

    26. JDJack Dorsey1:07:52

        Yup.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:07:52

        You're gonna get everybody versus following the people that you already follow that agree with what you think.

    28. JDJack Dorsey1:07:58

        Yeah. The probability is higher that you'll get more.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:08:00

        Yeah.

    30. JDJack Dorsey1:08:00

        You'll get more variety of perspective. The... And not even, don't even follow Brexit, follow vote leave if you wanna leave.
14. 1:16:57 – 1:36:11

    Jack’s personal burden and Twitter’s mission: reducing weaponization, breaking bubbles, serving humanity

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:16:57

       Now, you, as a CEO, as a guy who's running this thing, what, what has this been... has the experience been like for you? 'Cause I gotta imagine that it wasn't anything that you predicted. No one predicted Twitter, right?

    2. JDJack Dorsey1:17:10

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:17:10

       So, to all of a sudden have this responsibility-

    4. JDJack Dorsey1:17:13

       Twitter changed everything. I mean, it, it-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:17:15

       And you're a young guy. How old are you?

    6. JDJack Dorsey1:17:16

       42.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:17:17

       That's young to be in control of that much. Like, what... And to have it over the time of... What has it been? Uh, 11 years?

    8. JDJack Dorsey1:17:26

       13 years. Will be 13 in March, yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:17:29

       13 years? Yeah, so you were really fucking young.

    10. JDJack Dorsey1:17:30

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:17:31

        Like, what has that been like for you?

    12. JDJack Dorsey1:17:34

        It's been, uh... It's been both beautiful and scary and uncomfortable and learning. (laughs) It's just been a ton of learning and evolving and, like, it shows me every single day where I need to push myself and what I don't know. And, uh, and I... I think a big part is, like, just the realization that we're not gonna be able to do this alone, and I don't think we have to either. The... These are w-... These are what the technologies continue to allow, is we can... I- if, if we have to have all the answers around enforcement or policy, whatnot, we're, we're not going to serve the world. We have aspirations to serve every single person on the planet, and we, we have aspirations to, you know, be the first consideration for the global public conversation. And, you know, if, if we're the bottleneck, um, for all this, we're, we're not going to reach those aspirations. So, it's just thinking deeply about how we might distribute more of this work and decentralize, uh, more of it and look at, look at, you know, the platform itself and, like, what we need to change to reach that reality. And I, I think we gotta look really deep and foundational. It... It goes back to, you know, the... Like, your question on 140. One of the things that we saw was, you know, we, we shifted to 280 characters, and that... You know, this 140 characters is so sacred, you know? It-

Episode duration: 1:55:07