Joe Rogan Experience #1236 - Jack Dorsey

Joe Rogan 0:04 Three, two, one (hands clap) . Boom. Hello, Jack.

Jack Dorsey 0:09 What's up?

Joe Rogan 0:10 Nice to meet you, man.

Jack Dorsey 0:11 Nice to meet you finally.

Joe Rogan 0:12 Yeah, I keep this sucker like a fist from your face.

Jack Dorsey 0:13 Got it.

Joe Rogan 0:14 It's always good. First of all, dude, um-

Jack Dorsey 0:16 (clears throat) .

Joe Rogan 0:17 ... you started a company... When you started Twitter, when you guys first started, did you have any ide-... L- there's no way you could've had a- any idea what it would be now.

Jack Dorsey 0:25 No.

Joe Rogan 0:25 But, uh, one of the things I always try emphasize with people when they're people like, "Oh, Twitter's crazy." I'm like, "How could it not be crazy?" There's never been anything like it before. Like imagine trying to predict the kind of im-... Uh, the president of the United States uses threa- Twitter to threaten other countries.

Jack Dorsey 0:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:43 I mean, (laughs) who the fuck saw that coming? Nobody saw that coming.

Jack Dorsey 0:47 Not us. Not us.

Joe Rogan 0:47 What did you think it was gonna be when you first did it?

Jack Dorsey 0:51 Well, you know, we were building this thing for ourselves, and that's how... (sighs) Tha- that's how everything starts. We wanted to use it. We wanted to, um... We wanted to, you know, stay connected with each other. We, we-

Joe Rogan 1:03 Like a group text almost.

Jack Dorsey 1:04 Like a group text. We loved our phones. We loved, um, technology. We, we actually started this as a Hack Week project out of a failed company called Odeo. It was podcasting.

Joe Rogan 1:16 I remember that.

Jack Dorsey 1:17 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17 I remember Odeo.

Jack Dorsey 1:17 Super early on. We were, uh, we were really creative folks, but we weren't that passionate about where podcasting was going in our particular, um, domain. And we just got a lot of competition early on. iTunes just released their podcast directory. But we knew we wanted to work together. We knew, um... We loved this idea of one button publishing. We loved this idea of collaboration. We loved this idea of, uh, being anywhere and being able to

Jack Dorsey 1:48 share what was happening. That was, that was the idea. I mean, tha- that was it, and that's what we wanted it to be. And I think the most beautiful and also sometimes uncomfortable aspect of Twitter is it, um... We really learned what it wanted to be, and the people helped create it. Like everything that we hold sacred now, the at symbol, the hashtag, the retweet, those were not invented by me or the company. Those were things that we discovered, things that we discovered people using, and we just observed it and we, we noticed what they were trying to do. They were trying to talk with one another. They were trying to, um, collect tweets around topics with the hashtag.

Joe Rogan 2:35 Has anybody figured out when the first use of hashtag something was created?

Jack Dorsey 2:39 Yeah, it was, um... It was actually our lead designer, uh, Robert Anderson, who leads our design of the Cash App, um, hired him for Square, uh, later on. But, uh, he was the first one. He was actually communicating with his brother, and, uh, he put @Buzz. His brother's name is Buzz. And it just kinda spread. It wasn't en masse, but people were doing it. But what was m- most interesting is not what they were doing but what they wanted to do with it. They wanted to address each other, and that s- that changed the company completely. That changed the service, because it went from just broadcasting what's happening to conversation, and to being, being able to address anyone publicly out in the open, which came with it a lot of power and also a lot of issues as well.

Joe Rogan 3:32 Yeah, the, the use of hashtags, like, uh, l- looking up hashtag, you know, Fry Fest or hashtag-

Jack Dorsey 3:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:40 ... you know, any time there's something weird that's in the news. That's, uh, that's such a unique way to find things, but to go on Twitter and to, to utilize that, it's, uh... I mean, it's, it's interesting that you're f- that this guy just did it just to contact his brother.

Jack Dorsey 3:55 Well, that wa- that was the at symbol. The hashtag was this guy Chris Messina and he-

Joe Rogan 3:58 Oh, good for you.

Jack Dorsey 3:59 ... was trying to, he was trying to tag, um, he was t- trying to tag around topics that he was tweeting about. And, again, that spread. All we did was made it easier. We made it more accessible. We, we enabled everyone to do it. Uh, with the at symbol, we made a page that collected all mentions of your name. With the hashtag, we allowed people to search, uh, immediately, so you could tap on the keyword and you would see everyone talking about that or tweeting about that specific hashtag. So, these things were just emergent behaviors that we didn't predict and they became the lifeblood of the service.

Joe Rogan 4:33 Well, what's fascinating to me about something like Twitter or even something like YouTube is that there's not a lot of other ones like it. There's just this one thing.

Jack Dorsey 4:42 There's one.

Joe Rogan 4:42 Like how does that happen?

Jack Dorsey 4:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:43 Where this one thing sort of gets adopted by everybody and takes over and then just becomes this overwhelmingly massive platform. I mean, there's really...

Jack Dorsey 4:53 (clears throat) .

Joe Rogan 4:53 There's Vimeo and there's a few other video s- services, but nothing on the scale of YouTube, and it's the same thing with Twitter. There's nothing on the scale of distributing information in a quick, short, 280 character form like that.

Jack Dorsey 5:06 We, um... I, I, I don't think we could plan for it. I don't think we could necessarily build for that. I, uh... Someone said recently to, uh... We just, you know, gathered a bunch of our leadership last week in Palm Springs for an offsite and someone said recently that Twitter was, um, discovered. And I think what's behind all that is that it, it, it hit something foundational. It hit something essential. And my co-founder Biz likes to say that Twitter can never be un-invented. It's here. It changed everything. The, the use of it has been revolutionary. And it's just this simple idea of, you know, if you could text with the entire world, if you could actually reach anyone in the world, or anyone could see what you're thinking, which I think is also the beautiful thing about-... about text and the, and the medium. You can actually get at someone's raw thoughts and anyone in the world can see that instantaneously. It becomes this subconscious. It becomes this, like, global consciousness and it, uh, it gets to some really deep places in society and, and some of those places are pretty uncomfortable.

Joe Rogan 6:22 Well, it also gets to some really deep places psychologically. Um, there's, there's a sum- there's a weirdness to it, right? There's a weirdness-

Jack Dorsey 6:29 Definitely weird.

Joe Rogan 6:29 ... to sending text, particularly a- anonymously. You know, and there's so many accounts that are just an egg, you know?

Jack Dorsey 6:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:38 And so many accounts where they're clearly designed. If you g- like sometimes someone will tweet something mean to me and I'm like, "Hmm, I wonder what this person's up to." So I go to their site and it's just them tweeting mean shit at people-

Jack Dorsey 6:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:49 ... all day long. Like it's probably some angry person at work and they're like, "I'm just gonna find people and fuck with them all day." Like-

Jack Dorsey 6:55 Yep.

Joe Rogan 6:56 When did you realize or when did you realize, I'm sure you're aware of it, when did you realize that this was almost out of your control in terms of like the scale of it?

Jack Dorsey 7:06 Hmm. Uh, there wasn't, there wasn't one moment. There wasn't one moment that, um, it just felt completely resonant. Uh, it just, it's, it's unfolded into the next thing and the next use case and it just keeps surprising us with how people are, are using it. We... You know, it definitely, um... Recently, I think we've identified some of the areas of the service that we need to pay a lot more attention to. Um, Twitter is unique in that it has two main spaces. One, which is your timeline and those are the people that you follow. And, uh, you know, when you follow someone, they've earned that audience. And then it has this other world where anyone can insert themselves into the conversation. They can actually mention you and you'll see that without asking for it. You can insert yourself into hashtags, into, uh, search, um, and these are areas that people have taken advantage of and these are the areas that people have gamed our systems to, in some cases, artificially amplify but also just to spread a lot of things that weren't possible with a velocity that they're now possible before.

Joe Rogan 8:29 Now, when this is all happening, what-what's the conversation like at Twitter when you're recognizing that this is happening, that people are kinda gaming the system?

Jack Dorsey 8:37 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 8:37 Like what do, how do you guys, how do you mitigate it? What-what's the discussion?

Jack Dorsey 8:43 Well early on it was, um, it was pretty surface level, like how we change some of the app dynamics. But more recently, we're trying to go a lot deeper in, in asking ourselves the question, when people open Twitter, what are we incentivizing? What are we telling them to do when they open up this app? We may not explicitly be doing that, but there's something, um, that we're saying without, um, being as clear about it. So, what does the like button incentivize? What does the retweet incentivize? What does the number of followers and making that number big and bold incentivize? So, I'm not sure what we should n- I'm not sure if we should incentivize anything, but we need to understand what that is and I think, you know, right now, we, we do incentivize a lot of echo chambers because we don't make it easy for people to follow interests and topics. It's only accounts. We incentivize, um, a lot of outrage and ho- hot takes, um, because of the, some of the dynamics in the service not allowing a lot of nuance in conversation earlier on. Um, uh, pseudonyms, uh, this, uh, you know, this, uh, ability to not use your real name incentivizes some positive things, like it allows for whistleblowers and journalists who, uh, might fear for their career or even worse, their life in, under certain regimes. But also allows for people, like the example you mentioned, of just random fire and, uh, you know, spread of abuse and harassment throughout. So, those are the things that we're looking at and how do we, how do we enable more of the conversation to evolve? How do we increase the credibility or reputation of accounts? Um, how do we identify, uh, credible voices within a particular domain? Um, not just through this very coarse grain blue verified badge, but, uh, if you're an expert in a particular topic, how do we recognize that in real time and show that so that we can provide more context to who you're talking to and if you want to engage in a deeper conversation or just ignore, mute, or block them.

Joe Rogan 11:07 But what is the conversation like while you're at work? Like when you're realizing-

Jack Dorsey 11:10 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 11:10 ... that all this stuff is happening, um, w- and you're realizing that now, I mean, particularly because the president uses it so often. It's such a, a, I mean, it's his preferred platform for communicating with the people. I mean, even more so than addresses.

Jack Dorsey 11:24 Yep.

Joe Rogan 11:24 It's really, it's very strange. What's the conversation like in the office when you're trying to figure out, "Hey, what's our responsibility here? Like how are we supposed to handle this?" Or- or- or how do we, I mean, you're, you're... In some ways, what Twitter's doing is it- it- it's really kind of, it's flavoring the public narrative. It's flavoring the way we communicate with each other-

Jack Dorsey 11:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:47 ... in- in this, in our culture, worldwide.

Jack Dorsey 11:51 Yeah, I mean, the, the conversation has definitely evolved. Um, I think in the past, we just got super reactive. Um, we were reacting to all the negative things that we were seeing and that led to a lot of short-term thinking. Um, more recently, we've just looked...... much deeper. We, we don't react to the, to the present day. We, we look for some of the patterns. And, um, you know, we, we have a, we have a company that, uh, is not just serving the people of this particular country, the United States. This is global. We have global leaders all around the use- all around the world using us in, in different ways. Some, you know, more, um, with a higher velocity. Some, uh, recognize more the power. Um, some put out statements. Some lead conversations. But it's looking at all those dynamics and not trying to, um, hyper-focus on any one particular one, because if we do, we're only building it for one portion of the population, or only one perceived, uh, present-day crisis.

Joe Rogan 12:56 Well, what I'm, what I'm tryna get at was like, okay, like, when things come up, like say if you find out that there's people from ISIS that are using Twitter, and they're using Twitter and posting things, like, what is the conversation? Like, how do, what do we do about this? Do we let, leave this up? Do we, we recognize this is free speech? Do we only take it down if they're calling for murder or hate speech? Like, what ... How do you handle that?

Jack Dorsey 13:23 Well, it, it evolves. I mean, because like, we first saw ISIS when the world saw ISIS, and we needed to change our policy to deal with it. Um-

Joe Rogan 13:31 What was the f- what was the initial reaction to it? So once you realized that people from ISIS were making Twitter accounts, and they were trying to recruit people and doing all these things, what was the, what was the thought process?

Jack Dorsey 13:42 Oh, it was a question, like, what are, what are we gonna do about this?

Joe Rogan 13:44 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 13:44 We, we, we haven't experienced this before. We need to-

Joe Rogan 13:46 Nobody has. I mean, you're essentially-

Jack Dorsey 13:48 No one's-

Joe Rogan 13:48 ... pioneers.

Jack Dorsey 13:48 No. Yeah. But there, there are people who have experienced in different forms and different mediums. So we reach out to our government partners, for instance, or law enforcement partners. Uh, we reach out to our peer companies to ask if they're seeing the same things that we're seeing. Um, we have a bunch of civil societies that we, uh, talk to, uh, to get their take on it as well, and we try to balance, uh, that across, um, you know, various spectrums, whether it be, uh, you know, uh, more, uh, organizations that are more focused on preventing online harassment all the way to the ACLU and the EFF, who are protecting the First Amendment online. So we w- we try to get as many perspectives as possible, take that, and then make some informed decisions. But also realize that we're probably gonna make some mistakes along the way, and all we can do to correct some of that is just be open about where we are. And that's probably where we failed the most in the past, is we just haven't been open about our thinking process, um, what led to particular decisions, how our terms of service evolve. The terms of service, as an area in our industry, is just, uh, it's a mess. No one reads 'em. You, you know, you-

Joe Rogan 15:04 Right.

Jack Dorsey 15:04 ... sign up for these services, and you quickly hit accept.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 15:08 And we expect people to read these rules of the road, but they haven't read them. And-

Joe Rogan 15:16 Have you ever read them?

Jack Dorsey 15:17 I have read them. (laughs) I've read them.

Joe Rogan 15:18 You've read your own.

Jack Dorsey 15:19 I've-

Joe Rogan 15:19 Have you read Facebook's?

Jack Dorsey 15:21 I haven't read Facebook's.

Joe Rogan 15:22 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 15:22 I'm not on Facebook.

Joe Rogan 15:23 But you probably ... You're not on it?

Jack Dorsey 15:23 I'm not on Facebook.

Joe Rogan 15:24 Wow. Fuck Facebook, right?

Jack Dorsey 15:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:26 No, I'm just kidding. What about Instagram? You ever read theirs?

Jack Dorsey 15:30 I was, uh, I was in the first 10 users of, uh, of Instagram.

Joe Rogan 15:34 Really?

Jack Dorsey 15:35 Uh, Kevin was a intern. Kevin Systrom was an intern at, uh, Odeo. And, um, I was one of the first investors of Instagram and love the service. I don't think I've ever read their terms of service.

Joe Rogan 15:46 Hm. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Even you.

Jack Dorsey 15:49 Even me. But I read ours, and one of the things I noticed, um, right away is, you know, you read our, uh, you read our terms of service, and one of the first things that we put at the top of the page was copyright and intellectual property, um, protections.

Joe Rogan 16:06 Mm.

Jack Dorsey 16:07 You go down, you scroll down, you see everything about violent threats and abuse and harassment and, uh, safety. And it's not that the company intended for that to be the order. It just, we just added things going on. But-

Joe Rogan 16:23 Mm.

Jack Dorsey 16:23 ... even a read of that puts forth our point of view. Like, we're, we're, we're actually putting copyright infringement above the safety, the physical-

Joe Rogan 16:32 Right.

Jack Dorsey 16:32 ... safety of someone. So we need to relook at some of these things and how they've evolved and how they reacted and-

Joe Rogan 16:38 But is it above just because it's listed second? I mean, is it, they're essentially all on the same one sheet.

Jack Dorsey 16:44 They're all on the one sheet-

Joe Rogan 16:45 Is when you, when you r- bring it up, when you discuss it first, is that really critical? They're all, they're all part of the terms of service.

Jack Dorsey 16:51 Yeah, but I think that ordering matters.

Joe Rogan 16:53 Hm.

Jack Dorsey 16:53 Like, what, what do we consider to be most important?

Joe Rogan 16:55 Right.

Jack Dorsey 16:56 And we have to consider physical safety to the, to be the one thing that we protect the most.

Joe Rogan 17:02 Right.

Jack Dorsey 17:02 And-

Joe Rogan 17:02 So physical threats-

Jack Dorsey 17:04 Physical threats, um-

Joe Rogan 17:05 Doxing.

Jack Dorsey 17:05 Doxing. Anything that impinges on someone's physical safety. This, this is an area where I don't think, uh, technology and, and services like ours have, uh, focused on enough. We haven't focused on the off, off-platform ramifications of what happens online.

Joe Rogan 17:22 So what do you do, like, like, here's a good for instance. This situation with this, uh, young kid who had the MAGA hat on and the Native American gentleman who was in front of him banging a drum, and then people are calling for this kid's name. They want his name. They want his address, including Kathy Griffin. Like, how do you, how do you handle something like that?

Jack Dorsey 17:42 Well-

Joe Rogan 17:43 'Cause that's essentially request for doxing.

Jack Dorsey 17:45 Yeah. And, and, and that's, that is a new vector that we haven't seen en masse. I mean, this, these are, these are the cases that bring up entirely-

Joe Rogan 17:52 Right.

Jack Dorsey 17:53 ... new things. So, we have to study it. We have to see how, uh, we reacted, what happened with the network. Um, but this goes back to the incentives. Like, we are incentivizing this very quick-... reaction-

Joe Rogan 18:07 Mm.

Jack Dorsey 18:07 ... and it's taking away from some mo- some more of the, like, considered work that we need to do to really diagnose what's happening in the moment. And it was... It's such an interesting case study to see, um, how that evolved over just 48 hours.

Joe Rogan 18:23 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 18:24 And-

Joe Rogan 18:24 That's one of the most fascinating news cycles, or stories in the news cycle, in quite a while-

Jack Dorsey 18:29 It is.

Joe Rogan 18:29 ... because it's nuanced. There's, there's many different levels to it.

Jack Dorsey 18:32 It's extremely nuanced. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:33 And a lot of, like, really knee-jerk reactions.

Jack Dorsey 18:36 Totally, and... But we helped that.

Joe Rogan 18:40 How'd you help it?

Jack Dorsey 18:41 Well, it, it's just that's how some of the dynamics of the service work.

Joe Rogan 18:44 But is that how-

Jack Dorsey 18:45 And those are the things we can change.

Joe Rogan 18:46 ... some of the dynamics of the service or is it the way t- people choose to use the service? Like, if you're a thoughtful- (clears throat)

Jack Dorsey 18:52 ... person, you wouldn't just... Like, f- for instance, the original image that was distributed, uh, came from an account that's now banned, right? Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:00 And so, it was, it was discovered that that c- account was a troll account.

Jack Dorsey 19:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:05 What... How does that happen and what, what was the, the thought process behind that? 'Cause th- the image that they, they posted was a legitimate image, it really did happen, it, it b- it was in... It was a part of an actual occurring event, so wh- why do you ban the person or the troll account that put it up?

Jack Dorsey 19:22 I don't know about this particular case, but it's likely, um, that it was found... Uh, there's, there's a lot of what you see on the surface of Twitter, and some of the actions that we take on the surface, but where we spend a lot of our enforcement is actually what's happening underneath. So, in many cases, we have, um, trolls or people, like the case that you mentioned, whose sole purpose is just to harass, or abuse, or spread, uh, particular information. And oftentimes, these accounts might be connected, or they start one account, that gets banned, they start another account, but we can actually see, um, this through a network lens, and we can actually see some of those behaviors. So, that might have been one of the reasons. I'm not sure in, in, in that particular case. But, you know, what the-

Joe Rogan 20:16 How do you know? Do you know because of IP addresses? Do you know because of the, the, the l-

Jack Dorsey 20:20 A variety of things.

Joe Rogan 20:21 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 20:21 Like, it could be, it could be trying to use the same phone number or same email address, IP addresses, um, device IDs, all these things that we can use to, to judge what's happening within the context. So, we do have a lot of occurrences of suspending or temporarily suspending accounts because of activities across accounts.

Joe Rogan 20:41 Mm.

Jack Dorsey 20:41 Um, and, and that, that happens a ton. But what, what I mean... What I mean in th- in that we're, we're helping this right now is, like, some of the incentives, like, just, just imagine seeing that unfold. And when you see someone with one take, it kind of emboldens something to follow along, and then this mob kinda rules.

Joe Rogan 21:00 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 21:01 So, there has to be a way for us to incentivize, uh, a lot more, y- more considered and more nuanced introspection of what's going on.

Joe Rogan 21:11 Yeah, give everybody mushrooms.

Jack Dorsey 21:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:12 That's probably the only way. How the f-

Jack Dorsey 21:13 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 21:14 How are you gonna get people to be more considerate? I mean, what, what... I mean, this is essentially-

Jack Dorsey 21:18 Providing more context.

Joe Rogan 21:18 ... you're engineering social behavior, right?

Jack Dorsey 21:21 Pr- yeah, providing more context.

Joe Rogan 21:23 Providing more context. How so?

Jack Dorsey 21:23 Providing more context. Like, uh, in an example, let's, let's take Brexit, for example.

Joe Rogan 21:27 Okay.

Jack Dorsey 21:28 So, um, if I followed a bunch of accounts that... Like, like Boris Johnson, who was constantly giving me information about reasons to leave, I would probably only see that perspective. I-

Joe Rogan 21:43 Nigel Farage.

Jack Dorsey 21:44 Yeah, and those, and those... A lot of folks just will not follow accounts that have a completely different perspective or a different influence. Uh, a number of people do, hopefully journalists do, but most people won't do that work. So, this is the only tool we give people: follow an account. If, however, during that time, you followed the hashtag, you followed the hashtag #voteleave, 95% of the conversation and the tweets you see are all reasons to leave. But there's a small percentage that shows a different perspective and that shows a different, um, a different reasoning. We don't make it easy for anyone to do that. And that is a lost-

Joe Rogan 22:27 Easy for anyone to follow the alternative-

Jack Dorsey 22:30 Follow the hashtag.

Joe Rogan 22:30 ... p- perspective?

Jack Dorsey 22:30 Follow the hashtag, follow a topic, follow-

Joe Rogan 22:32 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 22:32 ... follow an interest. And because of that, um, we help build an echo chamber.

Joe Rogan 22:38 Right.

Jack Dorsey 22:38 And, and something that doesn't really challenge any perspective. And not to say that we should force that upon people, but we don't even make it easy for people to do in the first place. The, the way you do that today is you go to this... the Explore tab, you look, you search for a hashtag, or you tap into a hashtag, and you can see all the conversation. But that's, that's work.

Joe Rogan 22:59 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 23:00 And most people just won't do the work. They'll stay in their timeline, they'll see what they need to see, and I can certainly imagine, you know, why, if I'm just following a bunch of people who have the exact same take on this, it just continues to embolden, embolden, embolden. And they see nothing of a different perspective on the exact same, uh, the exact same situation.

Joe Rogan 23:21 What's interesting to me-

Jack Dorsey 23:22 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 23:22 ... is the difference between Twitter and Instagram. E- e- e- essentially, it's not just the photographs. What's weird that has happened was... There's, there's shitty people on Instagram as well. I mean, there's, there's a lot of arguments and things along those lines, but they don't overwhelm the, the initial post. Whereas, with Twitter-

Jack Dorsey 23:43 It's on a different surface.

Joe Rogan 23:44 Yeah. It's-

Jack Dorsey 23:45 It's... Instagram is a, is a post. I mean, a... It, it's a post. It's not really eliciting conversation. It's eliciting comments.

Joe Rogan 23:51 But it's not just that. It's difficult to follow the conversations.

Jack Dorsey 23:54 I don't think there is a conversation. It, it's-

Joe Rogan 23:56 Well, sometimes there is. Sometimes people are going back and forth about a particular subject that's discussed in the r- initial-

Jack Dorsey 24:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:01 ... post. But it's not, it's not very clear.

Jack Dorsey 24:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:05 Whereas with, with Twitter, it... It's only conversation.

Jack Dorsey 24:09 It's only conversation. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:10 But even if there's a photograph, even if somebody posts-

Jack Dorsey 24:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:12 ... a photograph on Twitter and has conversation under it, the photograph seems to be, like, of secondary importance.

Jack Dorsey 24:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:17 B-

Jack Dorsey 24:17 It's super, super fluid and, and super messy, too.

Joe Rogan 24:21 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 24:21 But the thing is, every... On Instagram, I...... or any, any blog, you have this, this post, this statement, and you have comments underneath. Whereas with Twitter, everything is on the same surface.

Joe Rogan 24:34 Right.

Jack Dorsey 24:35 It's all one surface.

Joe Rogan 24:36 Yeah, my friend, Kurt Metzger, likes that about Facebook. He says because in Twitter, he goes, "I post something and then all these fucking morons post something." And he goes... (laughs) 'Cause, you, you know Kurt, he's very animated. He's like, "And their shit looks like, just like my shit. It's all together, all piled up." He goes, "But if I post something on Facebook..." He goes, "I have this whole thing." Like, this is the original-"

Jack Dorsey 24:59 You have more control.

Joe Rogan 24:59 "... statement. And then underneath it, yeah, you fucking say whatever you want."

Jack Dorsey 25:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:02 "But no one's, no one's reading that."

Jack Dorsey 25:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:04 Like, they're reading the original initial post, and it's clear that there's a differentiation between-

Jack Dorsey 25:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:09 ... the initial post and the secondary posts.

Jack Dorsey 25:11 Yeah, I, I, you know, there's room for both models, but I... This conversation, most conversations, it's n- it's not you making a statement and me just reacting to that.

Joe Rogan 25:23 Right.

Jack Dorsey 25:23 Like, the, our conversation evolves based on what we say. We can interrupt one another. We can, uh-

Joe Rogan 25:29 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 25:29 ... you know, we can completely change the subject. I can take control of the conversation and the people who might find that interesting follow it, and the folks that don't just stop listening. Whereas you can't do that in a post-comment model.

Joe Rogan 25:44 Yeah, it's also... Text is so limited. There, it's, I mean, it's great for just getting out actual facts, but it's-

Jack Dorsey 25:52 Also thinking.

Joe Rogan 25:53 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 25:53 It's just so close to thinking.

Joe Rogan 25:55 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 25:55 Like, there's no composition.

Joe Rogan 25:57 Right.

Jack Dorsey 25:57 You know, and, and that's, uh, that to me is the most beautiful thing about Twitter, but also something that, you know, can be uncomfortable. Like, I, I can compose my life on Instagram. I can compose my thoughts within a Facebook post, and it can look so perfect. But the best of Twitter is just super raw, and it's right, it's right to the thinking process. And I just think that's so beautiful 'cause it gets to, it gets to consciousness, it gets to something deeper. And I think that deeper-

Joe Rogan 26:28 Well, how, how so? How is it different than a post on Instagram or a post on Facebook?

Jack Dorsey 26:32 Uh, the- the- the- the speed demands... You know, the- the- the character constraint, the speed kind of just demands it, um, a more conscious, present-focused thinking versus like stepping back and, and-

Joe Rogan 26:47 Composing a letter.

Jack Dorsey 26:48 Yeah, and composing a letter and, and thinking about all the outcomes.

Joe Rogan 26:51 But oftentimes people do compose it as a letter, and they break it up into separate 280-character posts.

Jack Dorsey 26:57 Yeah, the threads.

Joe Rogan 26:58 D- d- what was, what was the thought process in going from 140 to 280? 'Cause I, the one thing that I liked about 140 is that you can't be verbose.

Jack Dorsey 27:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:05 You can't just, just ramble and... You know, like, it's great for comics 'cause it-

Jack Dorsey 27:09 Well-

Joe Rogan 27:09 ... it forces us to write jokes, like, with economy of words.

Jack Dorsey 27:12 Exactly. We, uh, we found a lot of resonance with, with journalists because of headlines. We found a lot of resonance with, uh, with comics because of the rhythm. And we found a lot of resonance with hip-hop as well because of the bars and just the structure, and the constraint allowed that, that flow. Um, the, the thinking was we, we looked at, um, our, you know, languages around the world, and, and, uh, there's some languages like German, 140 characters, you can't really say much. Can't really say much at all.

Joe Rogan 27:45 Right, 'cause the words are so long.

Jack Dorsey 27:46 There are some languages like Japanese, 140 characters is 140 words.

Joe Rogan 27:51 Oh.

Jack Dorsey 27:51 And what was interesting about Japan was, um, Japan is one of our largest, um, our largest countries. We're, we're bigger than Facebook there. We're, uh-

Joe Rogan 28:01 Are you not bigger than Facebook in America?

Jack Dorsey 28:03 No.

Joe Rogan 28:03 What the fuck?

Jack Dorsey 28:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:06 I don't even use Facebook. Sorry, Facebook.

Jack Dorsey 28:08 I don't either.

Joe Rogan 28:08 But I... I mean, I use it in terms of, uh, if I post something on Instagram, it goes to Facebook.

Jack Dorsey 28:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:13 But when I go to Facebook, it's... It just seems like a lot of... Well, this seems like Twitter too, a lot of arguing, but what I w-... Twitter seems to be more fun, if that makes any sense. Even though it's, there's a lot of chaos, when something p-... One of my favorite things is when someone posts something stupid and then underneath it is a bunch of GIFs. Wait, do you say GIFs or JIFs? How do you say GIF? How does anybody know?

Narrator 28:35 Ask him.

Jack Dorsey 28:36 GIFs.

Joe Rogan 28:36 How do you say it? GIFs?

Jack Dorsey 28:37 GIFs. I say GIFs.

Joe Rogan 28:38 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 28:38 I don't know, the jury's out.

Joe Rogan 28:39 A bunch of GIFs that are hilarious.

Jack Dorsey 28:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Like, uh, just mocking someone relentlessly. Like, I mean, tho- that is one of my favorite things about Twitter. When someone, like if Donald Trump posts something ridiculous, and then I'll go and I'll look at the responses, I'm like, "Bah!" (laughs) Like, I don't even care.

Jack Dorsey 28:55 It's a public conversation.

Joe Rogan 28:56 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 28:57 You can, you can see how everyone reacts. But, like it's all... The- the interesting thing about Twitter is there's, there's not one Twitter. It's like you have politics Twitter, which can be super toxic. You have sports Twitter, you have NBA Twitter, you have MMA Twitter, you have UFC Twitter, you have K-pop Twitter, you have, uh-

Joe Rogan 29:15 Black Twitter.

Jack Dorsey 29:15 ... e-sports Twitter, you have black Twitter.

Joe Rogan 29:17 That's Jamie's-

Jack Dorsey 29:18 You-

Joe Rogan 29:19 Jamie loves black Twitter. (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 29:19 You have all these different Twitters, and you-

Joe Rogan 29:21 That's the way it is. (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 29:21 And you have a, you have a completely different experience-

Joe Rogan 29:25 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 29:25 ... based on what Twitter you follow-

Joe Rogan 29:26 Sure.

Jack Dorsey 29:26 ... and what Twitter you participate in.

Joe Rogan 29:28 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 29:28 Some of them are, are like super engaging, super funny. Some of them are, um, you wanna walk away from it.

Joe Rogan 29:34 Yeah, I got to a certain point where I couldn't read replies anymore. I just... Mm. It's just... Not, not that it's that toxic. The vast majority of interactions I have with people are super positive.

Jack Dorsey 29:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:44 Like the m- I mean, absolutely like more than 99%. But it's, um... I didn't, I don't have time, and I don't have time to be constantly responding to people. And it just didn't... The sheer numbers. Well, I think when I got around three million-ish followers-

Jack Dorsey 30:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:00 ... I'm like, "I can't do this anymore."

Jack Dorsey 30:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:02 It's just, it just, it's overwhelming...... like, I don't have the resources.

Jack Dorsey 30:06 Yeah. I, I'm a huge believer in serendipity. So you, you, you look at your replies once, and you might see something that just, like, strikes you-

Joe Rogan 30:13 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 30:13 ... and that's enough. You don't need to read through all of 'em.

Joe Rogan 30:15 Yeah. Sometimes.

Jack Dorsey 30:16 And, and, it just-

Joe Rogan 30:16 But then you might miss something groovy.

Jack Dorsey 30:18 You might, but I'm, uh, I also believe the, the most important things come back up.

Joe Rogan 30:22 What I used to do a lot would, I would go through my mentions, and when people would... Uh, uh, I essentially used it as almost a news aggregator. I would go through my mentions-

Jack Dorsey 30:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:30 ... and people would post cool stories, and then I would retweet those. And so because people knew that I would retweet 'em, they would send me a lot of cool stuff. So because of that, because of reciprocating, I got a lot of really cool stuff sent my way.

Jack Dorsey 30:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:41 And-

Jack Dorsey 30:41 You're pushing, you're pushing more out to expand the network.

Joe Rogan 30:44 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 30:44 Yep.

Joe Rogan 30:44 And I, I'm, I reinforced it. I just, I wanted to thank people for posting cool stuff, and they loved the fact that they would get a retweet, and so they would send me, like, interesting science stories or, you know-

Jack Dorsey 30:55 Okay.

Joe Rogan 30:55 ... very bizarre nature stories, and I'd just be retweeting 'em all the time, going to... But then after a while I'm like, "Mm, this is just a lot of time."

Jack Dorsey 31:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:04 It's a lot of time. So now, essentially what I do is I just post something, and I just kind of, like, ugh-

Jack Dorsey 31:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:10 ... I just walk away.

Jack Dorsey 31:11 But, but that, I mean, that, that speaks of what we want to incentivize more. We want more people contributing things that, back to the network.

Joe Rogan 31:19 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 31:19 Back to the, back to the public conversation. And I, I know it doesn't feel like this today for most people, but my ideal is someone walks away from Twitter learning something, and they're actually learning something entirely new.

Joe Rogan 31:33 I th- I think that happens a lot.

Jack Dorsey 31:34 And it might be a new perspective.

Joe Rogan 31:35 That happens a lot.

Jack Dorsey 31:36 It probably happens more often than we, we think.

Joe Rogan 31:37 Depending on who you follow.

Jack Dorsey 31:39 Exactly. It, it's all-

Joe Rogan 31:40 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 31:40 ... dependent on the, on the Twitter you follow.

Joe Rogan 31:42 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 31:42 And, like, the, you know, the health Twitter is amazing. Uh, you know, I, I learned so much. Like, I followed, uh, Rhonda Patrick and, um, a bunch of folks-

Joe Rogan 31:51 She's amazing.

Jack Dorsey 31:52 ... who are into sauna.

Joe Rogan 31:52 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 31:52 And, um, Wim Hof and Icebath and, uh, uh, Ben Greenfield, and you just follow them, and you just get all this new information about alternative views of how to stay healthy, how to live longer, and I, I can't find that anywhere else.

Joe Rogan 32:09 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 32:09 In, in one place like that.

Joe Rogan 32:10 Right.

Jack Dorsey 32:10 And then it's not just them broadcasting. When they retweet something or when they tweet something, there's a whole conversation about it. So, you know, some people say this is, uh, this has not been my experience, or this has not, this is not true for me, or actually have you seen this connected thing? And I, I just go down this rabbit hole, and I, I learn so much. But that's not the experience for everyone.

Joe Rogan 32:33 No. Well, yeah, it's not the experience for everyone, and it's not really... I don't think it's what everyone wants, either. Sometimes people just like to go on there and talk shit. I mean, there's someone that's trapped-

Jack Dorsey 32:41 Sure.

Joe Rogan 32:41 ... in a cubicle right now.

Jack Dorsey 32:43 Sure.

Joe Rogan 32:43 And they just wanna go on there and get in arguments about gun control or, you know-

Jack Dorsey 32:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:46 ... whether or not Nancy Pelosi's the devil.

Jack Dorsey 32:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:48 I mean, this is, this is what, you know... It, it serves a purpose for them.

Jack Dorsey 32:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:53 The thing that gets strange, though, is who's to decide? You know, there's the-

Jack Dorsey 32:59 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 32:59 ... there's this, there's this concept, there's a discussion, I should say, where, uh, some people believe that things like Twitter or Facebook or any forum where you're having a public discussion should be considered almost like a public utility. Like, anyone has access to the electric power. Even if you are... You know, even if you're a racist, you still can get electricity. And some people think that you should have that same ability with something like Twitter or the same ability with something like Instagram. Obviously, this is... We're in uncharted territory.

Jack Dorsey 33:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:33 And you are, you are in uncharted territory.

Jack Dorsey 33:35 Totally.

Joe Rogan 33:35 I mean, it just, no one has been there before. So, who makes the distinctions? When you see someone w- that are, that's saying something that you might think is offensive to some folks but not offensive to the person who's saying it... Maybe the person who's saying it feels like they need to express themselves and this is important to say, and w- how do you decide whether or not this is a valid discussion or if this is, air quotes, "hate speech," which is a w- You know, there's some things that are hate speech, and then sometimes people use the term hate speech, and it's just a cheap way to shut down a conversation.

Jack Dorsey 34:10 Yeah. We... So the simple answer is we look at conduct.

Joe Rogan 34:14 Hm.

Jack Dorsey 34:14 We don't, we don't look at the speech itself, we look at conduct. We look at how the tool is being used. And you're, you're right in that, like I th- I think when people see Twitter, they see and they expect it to be a public square. They can go into that public square, they can say whatever they want, they can get on a pedestal, um, and people might gather around them and listen to what they have to say. Some of 'em might find it offensive and they leave. The difference is there's, there's also this concept of this megaphone, and the megaphone can be highly targeted now-

Joe Rogan 34:48 Hm.

Jack Dorsey 34:48 ... with Twitter as well.

Joe Rogan 34:49 Right.

Jack Dorsey 34:49 So it's not, it's not the, it's not the speech, it's how it's amplified.

Joe Rogan 34:54 So what do you do with... Like, say, let- let's, let's say there's someone in the media, uh, let's say it's a prominent feminist, and then you have a bunch of people, or let's say just one person, and their Twitter feed is overwhelmingly attacking this prominent feminist.

Jack Dorsey 35:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:08 Just constantly attacking her, calling her a liar, calling her this, calling her that. When do you decide this is harassment, when do you decide this is hate speech? When, like, how do you... I mean, this is, this is-

Jack Dorsey 35:17 We look at the context.

Joe Rogan 35:18 ... an absolute... This is a fictional account, right?

Jack Dorsey 35:20 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:20 Fictional person we're talking about. But in this, for instance, what, what would dictate something that was egregious enough for you to eliminate them from your platform?

Jack Dorsey 35:32 Well, that's a, that's a, that's a heavy action, so that's the last resort. Um, but we look at the conduct. We look at... Oftentimes, a- as you said, like, the, the probability of someone who is harassing one person, it's highly probable that they're also harassing 10 more people.

Joe Rogan 35:51 Right.

Jack Dorsey 35:52 So we can look at that behavior. We can look at how many times this person is being blocked or muted...

Joe Rogan 35:58 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 35:58 ... or, uh, reported. And based on all those, um, all that data, we can actually take some action. But we also have to, we have to correlate it with the other side of that, because-... people go on and they coordinate blocks as well, and they coordinate harassment and they, and they coordinate, I'm sorry, not harassment, but reporting, um, uh, reporting a particular account to get it shut down and to, uh, to take the voice off the service. So, these are the considerations we have to make, but it's, it's, it all starts with conduct. And o- oftentimes, we'll see coordinated conduct, whether it be that one person opening multiple accounts or coordinating with multiple accounts that they don't own to, you know, go after someone. And there's a bunch of vectors. People use retweet for that, uh, they quote-tweet for that a lot as well. Like, you know, they'll quote-tweet a, a tweet that someone finds and they'll say, "Look at this idiot. Twitter, do your thing." And then just this mob starts and goes and tries to effectively shut that person down. Um, so there's a bunch of tools we can use. The permanent suspension is the last resort. One of the things that we can do is we can downrank the replies. So, any of these, any of these behaviors and conduct that look link- linked, we can actually, uh, push farther down in the reply chain. So it's all still there, but you might have to push a button to actually see it. You might have to s- show more replies to actually see, uh, this harassing account or what might look like harassing language.

Joe Rogan 37:36 And is this manually done, or is this-

Jack Dorsey 37:38 No, no, no, no. This is-

Joe Rogan 37:39 ... is this-

Jack Dorsey 37:39 ... this is all, this is all automated.

Joe Rogan 37:41 It's automated?

Jack Dorsey 37:42 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:42 But how would you know-

Jack Dorsey 37:43 A lot of the ranking and the, and looking at amplification and looking at the network is, is automated.

Joe Rogan 37:48 Right, like, in terms of downranking.

Jack Dorsey 37:49 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 37:49 D- is there a discussion as to whether or not this person's replies should be downranked? Like, how do you, how do you figure that out?

Jack Dorsey 37:55 It's, it's a machine learning and deep learning model.

Joe Rogan 37:58 Whoa.

Jack Dorsey 37:58 And, and they just-

Joe Rogan 37:59 So it's AI.

Jack Dorsey 37:59 It's AI, and they, and they learn.

Joe Rogan 38:01 Christ.

Jack Dorsey 38:01 You know, and we, we look at, um, we look at how these things are doing and where they make mistakes and then we improve it. It's just constantly improving and constantly learning and ...

Joe Rogan 38:10 Does that feel like censorship to you? Like automated censorship?

Jack Dorsey 38:15 It-

Joe Rogan 38:15 Because, I mean, who, uh, who is to decide, other than people, whether or not something is valid?

Jack Dorsey 38:21 Well, we're not, we're not looking at the, at the speech in this particular case. We're looking at the conduct.

Joe Rogan 38:26 The conduct.

Jack Dorsey 38:26 Like k- the, the conduct of like someone in fast velocity attacking someone else.

Joe Rogan 38:31 Okay.

Jack Dorsey 38:31 Right? So those are the things that our technology allows. It changes the velocity, it changes, uh, how, um, you know, to broadcast a message that someone didn't really ask for and didn't wanna hear. We don't touch ... If I follow Joe Rogan, you'll see every single tweet. We don't touch it, right?

Joe Rogan 38:51 Right.

Jack Dorsey 38:51 But that's an audience that you earn. But in your replies page, we have a little bit more room because th- this is a, this is a conversation that starts up and some people just wanna disrupt it and, and all we're saying is, we're gonna look at moving the disruption down. Not that it's hidden, but it's still there, but, you know, you just see it a little bit farther down.

Joe Rogan 39:12 Like, there was a ... What was the instance with Ari? I should text him right now and get him to d- answer me in real time. But Ari Shaffir got kicked off of Twitter because he said something to Bert like, "Bert, I'm gonna fucking kill you." Bert Kreischer being our good friend. All of us are good friends.

Jack Dorsey 39:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:27 And he's like, "You fucking dummy. I'm gonna kill you," or something like that. He took his, uh, album, record albums, and he said he was like, "I'm gonna steal them and break them all." He got- (laughs) ... he jokingly got mad. Right, right, right. He could, 'cause that's Ari though. That's how he talks. Bert, Bert was prete- uh, he, I think it was all bullshit, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think Bert really stole his records. He, he kept them. Yeah, he gave him back to him eventually. I remember that, yeah. Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 39:42 So-

Joe Rogan 39:42 He's like, "I'm gonna fucking kill you."

Jack Dorsey 39:44 So what happened there, what probably happened there, and I'm, I'm not sure the particular case, but what probably happened there is someone might have reported that tweet. One of our agents, uh, human agents, without context to their friendship-

Joe Rogan 39:57 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 39:58 ... um, or that relationship, uh, saw it as a violent threat and took action on it.

Joe Rogan 40:04 Right.

Jack Dorsey 40:04 And those are the mistakes that we're going to make. That's why we need an appeals process and-

Joe Rogan 40:08 Or Bert needs to keep his fucking greasy hands off Ari's records.

Jack Dorsey 40:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:12 Right?

Jack Dorsey 40:14 That's probably not gonna happen. We, we, we need to-

Joe Rogan 40:16 (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 40:16 ... we need to make sure (laughs) , we need to make sure that we're reacting the right way.

Joe Rogan 40:19 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 40:19 And like, look, we're going to make mistakes. We're tuh, we're trying to ... The, the problem with the system right now is most of the, most of the work is actually, and, and the burden is actually on the victims of abuse while they're getting harassed.

Joe Rogan 40:33 Mm.

Jack Dorsey 40:34 So, a lot of our system doesn't enforce or act unless, uh, these tweets are reported, right? So we don't take suspension actions or removal of content actions unless it's reported. The algorithms rank and order the conversation, but they don't take suspension actions. They don't take, they don't remove content. They might suggest to a human to look at this, who might look at our rules and look at the content and, and try to look at the context of the conversation and then take action. But we would like to move, uh, towards a lot more automated enforcement, but more importantly, how do we, how do we highlight, um, how do we amplify more of the healthier discussion and conversation? Again, not removing it. I, I, we're, we're, we're going to a world, especially with technology like blockchain, that all content that exists, that is ever created, will exist forever. You won't be able to take it down. You won't be able to censor it. It won't be centralized at all. Our role is around what we recommend based on your interests and based on, uh, who you follow and, and, and helping you to get into that on-ramp. But if you look at the architechnology, it's a given that anytime something is created, it's going to exist forever. This is what blockchain helps enable down the line. And we need to make sure that we're paying attention to that and also realizing that, you know ...... our, our role is like, how do we, how do we get people the stuff that they really wanna see and they find valuable, that they'll learn from, that they'll make them think that will help them evolve the conversation as well?

Joe Rogan 42:24 Now, when you say amplify the messages that you deem to be more positive, right? Like, how do you decide that?

Jack Dorsey 42:31 People decide it.

Joe Rogan 42:32 People decide it.

Jack Dorsey 42:32 People decide it based on like, are they-

Joe Rogan 42:34 How-

Jack Dorsey 42:34 ... are they engaging in replies? Are they, are they, um, retweeting it? Are they liking it? Are they, um-

Joe Rogan 42:40 But sometimes it's really negative. Like sometimes the people that are engaging in it are engaging in it because they're attacking someone. So d- is that valuable or, or is it just unfortunate?

Jack Dorsey 42:51 It's valuable. I mean, every s- every signal is something that we can learn from and we can act on. But it, it's going to constantly evolve.

Joe Rogan 42:59 Right.

Jack Dorsey 42:59 I mean, it's, these, these, these models that we have to build will constantly have to learn what the network is doing and, and how people are using it. And, um, you know, our, our goal is healthy contribution back to the public conversation. That, that is what we want. We wanna encourage people into more bigger, m- informative global conversations that they'll learn from.

Joe Rogan 43:25 Uh, are you like constantly aware of how much this is changing society and that you are one of the four or five different modalities that are radically changing society? Whether it's Facebook or Instagram or any of these social media companies, it, it's radically changing the way people communicate with each other. Like there's a, there's a, a giant impact on the way human beings talk.

Jack Dorsey 43:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:52 And see each other and the way we process ideas and the way we distribute information. It's unprecedented.

Jack Dorsey 43:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:57 There's never been anything like that before. And you setting up something that you think is gonna be a group chat, do you remember the early days when you would say like, "@Jack is going to the movies."

Jack Dorsey 44:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:07 You would say, like-

Jack Dorsey 44:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:08 ... that's how we would say it. I would say, "@JoeRogan is on his way to dinner."

Jack Dorsey 44:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:12 Like that's how people would do it.

Jack Dorsey 44:13 The status, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:14 It's fucking... It was weird.

Jack Dorsey 44:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:16 That somewhere along the line that morphed.

Jack Dorsey 44:19 It morphed-

Joe Rogan 44:19 And it's-

Jack Dorsey 44:20 ... because that's what the world wanted to do with it. That's what, that's where they-

Joe Rogan 44:22 That's what the world wanted to do with it.

Jack Dorsey 44:23 ... wanted to take it.

Joe Rogan 44:24 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 44:24 And I, I just think it's so reflective of, of what the world is and in some cases what the world wants to be.

Joe Rogan 44:32 So it's a, a pathway for thinking, just a pathway for people to get their thoughts out. But a really, a, a powerful one, an unprecedented method of, of distributing information. There's really nothing ever been like this before.

Jack Dorsey 44:48 No. No, and, and it, it won't. This, this mode of communicating will not go away. It'll just get faster. It, it will, will become a lot more connected. And that's why our work is so critical to figure out some of the dynamics at play that, that, um, that make it, uh, that, that cause more negative outcomes than positive outcomes.

Joe Rogan 45:15 I, I, I think about it because, uh, well, I think about it because it's ch- it's just a hugely significant thing. But I also think about it because of podcasts 'cause podcasts are i- in a similar way. Just no one saw it coming and the people-

Jack Dorsey 45:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:32 ... that are involved in it are like, "What the fuck are we doing?"

Jack Dorsey 45:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:34 Like me. I'm like, "What am I doing?" Like, "What is this?"

Jack Dorsey 45:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:37 Like for me it's like, ooh, boy, I get to talk to guys like Ben Greenfield and, and Jonathan Haidt and all-

Jack Dorsey 45:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:44 ... the, all these different people and l- learn some stuff. And I've, I've c- clearly learned way more from doing this podcast than I ever would have learned without it. No doubt about it.

Jack Dorsey 45:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:54 Unquestionably. But I didn't, I didn't fucking plan this. So now all of a sudden there's this, uh, signal that I'm sending out to millions and millions of people and then people are like, "Well, you have a responsibility." I'm like, "Oh, great. Well, I didn't want that." I didn't want a responsibility to what, what I distribute. I just wanted to be able to have a freak show.

Jack Dorsey 46:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:13 Just talk to people, like what e- whatever... You know, like, there's certain people that I'll have on, whether it's Alex Jones or anyone that's controversial, where people will get fucking mad. "Why are you giving this person a platform?" I go, "Okay. Hmm. I didn't think about it that way and I don't think that's what I'm doing. I think I'm talking to people and you can listen."

Jack Dorsey 46:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:31 But it's giving that person a platform 'cause they're saying, "Well, no, they'll tone down their..." Like Milo Yiannopoulos, that was one of the arguments people gave me. Like, "He toned down his platform when he was on your show so you could get more people to pay attention to him." I'm like, "Okay, but he also talked about..." He, he, um, that was one of the reasons why he was exposed was my show because he talked about that it's okay to have sex with underage boys w- if they're gay because there's like a mentor relationship between the older gay man and the younger... And people were like, "What the fuck are you talking about?"

Jack Dorsey 47:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:01 And that was a big part of why he's kind of been removed from the public conversation. That was, that was one of the thi- and, and then there's the discussion like, well, what is that? What is removing someone from the public conversation? If someone is very popular and they've, have all these people that like to listen to them, like what is the responsibility of these platforms? Whether it's YouTube or Twitter or anyone.

Jack Dorsey 47:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:24 What is their responsibility in, to decide whether or not someone should or shouldn't be able to speak? And this is a thing that I've been struggling with and I've been... I, I bounce around inside my own head and I see that you guys struggle with it. And, uh, man-

Jack Dorsey 47:38 Totally.

Joe Rogan 47:38 ... pretty much everyone does. YouTube does. And it's, um, it, it is a, a hugely significant discussion that is left to a very, you know, relatively small amount of people. And this is why this discussion of what is social media? Is it something that everybody has a right to? Or is it something that should be restricted to only people that are willing to behave and, uh, carry themselves in a certain way?

Jack Dorsey 48:07 ... I, I believe it's something that everyone has a right to, but-

Joe Rogan 48:11 Everyone has a right to, but you still ban people.

Jack Dorsey 48:13 But-

Joe Rogan 48:13 Like say like, like Alex Jones. You guys were the last guys to keep Alex Jones on the platform.

Jack Dorsey 48:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:18 You were the last ones.

Jack Dorsey 48:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:20 And I believe you hung in there until he started harassing you personally, right?

Jack Dorsey 48:23 No, no, no, no, no, no. He, he did not-

Joe Rogan 48:25 He came to your house, he banged (laughs) on your-

Jack Dorsey 48:28 (laughs) No. No. He, uh, you know, he, he did very different things on our platform versus the others.

Joe Rogan 48:33 Ah, okay.

Jack Dorsey 48:33 Um, so we, we saw this domino effect over a weekend of one platform, uh, banning him and then another, another, another in very, very quick succession.

Joe Rogan 48:44 Right.

Jack Dorsey 48:44 And, you know, people, uh, I think would have assumed that we would just have followed suit, but he didn't violate our terms of service.

Joe Rogan 48:53 Right.

Jack Dorsey 48:53 And afterwards, he did. And, and we have, you know, we have a, we have a policy and if, if, uh, you know, the, there's a violation, we take, uh, enforcement actions. One might be asking, uh, the account holder to delete the tweet. Another might be, um, a temporary suspension. Another might be a permanent suspension.

Joe Rogan 49:15 So what are you saying, so like let's, uh, use it in terms of like him saying that Sandy Hook was fake. He did not say that on the platform. He did not say that on Twitter.

Jack Dorsey 49:23 No.

Joe Rogan 49:23 He only said that on his show, which is-

Jack Dorsey 49:25 I don't know, I don't know, I don't know all the mediums he said it in. But-

Joe Rogan 49:28 What did he do?

Jack Dorsey 49:28 ... but what we're looking at is the, is the, is the conduct and what he did on our platform.

Joe Rogan 49:34 So what did he do on your platform that was like, that you all were in agreement that this is enough?

Jack Dorsey 49:40 Uh, I'm not, I'm not sure what the, what the actual, like you know, violations were. Um, but we have a, we have a set number of, of actions and if they keep getting, if, if d- divide, if w- an account keeps violating terms of service, ultimately it leads to permanent suspension. And when all the other platforms were taking him off, we didn't find those.

Joe Rogan 50:03 (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 50:03 We, we didn't, we didn't find those violations and they weren't reported. But again, it goes back to a lot of our model people weren't reporting, uh, a lot of the tweets that may have been in violation on our service, um, and we didn't act on them.

Joe Rogan 50:18 Right. Um, like a good instance is what's going on, uh, with Patreon.

Jack Dorsey 50:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:23 I'm sure you're aware of the Sargon of Akkad thing.

Jack Dorsey 50:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:26 He did a podcast a long time ago, uh, I believe six months or so ago, where he used the N-word and the way he used it is, uh, actually against white nationalists.

Jack Dorsey 50:39 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 50:39 Um, and he also said a bunch of other stuff and they decided, Patreon decided, that what he said on a podcast was enough for them to remove him from the platform, even though he didn't do anything on their platform-

Jack Dorsey 50:54 No.

Joe Rogan 50:54 ... that was egregious. And also, they had previously stated that they were only judging things that occurred on their platform.

Jack Dorsey 51:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:01 There's been a giant blowback because of that, because people are saying, "Well, now you're, you're essentially policing and not based on his actions, just on concepts and the, the, the communication that he was using, the way he was talking."

Jack Dorsey 51:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:15 That you're, you're eliminating him from being able to make a living and that you're doing this because he does not fit into your political paradigm.

Jack Dorsey 51:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:24 The way you wanna view the world, he, he views the world differently. This is an opportunity for you to eliminate someone who you disagree with.

Jack Dorsey 51:31 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I don't know the nuances of their policy, but like we, we have to pay attention to folks who are using Twitter to shut down the voices of others.

Joe Rogan 51:43 Right.

Jack Dorsey 51:43 That's where it gets weaponized, and we also have to pay attention to where people are using it that put other folks in physical danger. And that is where we need to be most severe. But otherwise, everyone has a right to these technologies and I think they also have a right to make sure that they have a very simple and open read of the rules. And, and we're not in a great state there. Our, our rules and our enforcement can be extremely confusing to people.

Joe Rogan 52:12 What has been the one thing that came up that was perhaps w- the most controversial? Like I know (laughs) my friend Sam Harris was trying to get you guys to ban Donald Trump.

Jack Dorsey 52:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:22 He was saying, "If you follow your terms of service..."

Jack Dorsey 52:24 I just did a podcast with him actually as well.

Joe Rogan 52:26 (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 52:26 Should come out today or tomorrow.

Joe Rogan 52:28 He's, uh, he's-

Jack Dorsey 52:29 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 52:29 ... he's a fascinating guy, Sam Harris. I love him to death. But what he was trying to do was like saying, "Hey, he's threatening nuclear war." Like he's saying, "Hey Korea, my bombs are bigger than your bombs." Like what else does the guy have to do to get you to remove him from the platform? When you guys saw that, what, what was your reaction to that? And was there an internal discussion-

Jack Dorsey 52:51 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 52:51 ... about actually banning the President of the United States?

Jack Dorsey 52:54 Well, so the, so two things there. One, it was the context that presidents of this country have used similar language in different mediums. They use it on radio, they use it on television. It's not just through Twitter. And even if you were look, uh, you were to look at the presidency of Obama, it wasn't exactly the same tone and the s- exact same language, but there were threats around the same country, and we have to take that, that context into consideration. So the second thing is that we need... The, the most controversial aspect of our rules and, uh, our terms of service is probably this clause around (clears throat) public interest and newsworthiness-

Joe Rogan 53:41 Hm.

Jack Dorsey 53:41 ... where, um, powerful figures or public figures might, uh, be in violation of our terms of service. But the tweet itself is of public interest.

Joe Rogan 53:54 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 53:55 There should be a conversation around it. And that is probably the thing that people disagree with the most, um, and where we have a lot of internal debate. But we also have some pretty hard lines. If we had a global leader, including the president of the United States, make a violent threat against a private individual, we would take action.... we, we always have to balance that with, like, is this a... is this something that the public has interest in? And I, I believe generally the answer is yes. It's not gonna be in every case, but generally the answer is yes, because we should see how our leaders think and how they act.

Joe Rogan 54:36 And essentially, it-

Jack Dorsey 54:37 That informs voting. That informs-

Joe Rogan 54:39 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 54:39 ... the, the conversation. It informs whether we think they're gonna... they're doing the right job or we, we think that, you know, they should be, uh, they should be voted out.

Joe Rogan 54:47 Well, it- it's very important to see how someone uses that platform and when someone uses it the way he uses it, and then becomes president and continues to use it that way, that's when people are like, "What?"

Jack Dorsey 54:59 He's been consistent.

Joe Rogan 55:00 (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 55:00 I think he, I think he joined in, in 2009, 2012.

Joe Rogan 55:03 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 55:03 And you look at all of his tweets all the way back then and it's pretty consistent to today.

Joe Rogan 55:07 Yeah. I mean, he likes to insult people on Twitter.

Jack Dorsey 55:11 (clears throat) He does.

Joe Rogan 55:11 It's fun for him.

Jack Dorsey 55:12 He does. He does.

Joe Rogan 55:12 You know, it's just... I never thought he would keep doing it. I thought once he became president, maybe he'd just lock it down, try to do a good job for the country, and then, you know, after four years or eight years, just go back to his old self. "Fuck you, fuck the world, fuck this."

Jack Dorsey 55:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:25 And... But no. He's, he's, he's just keep... It's just, in one way, it's hilarious. See, as a comedian, I think it's awesome, because it's just... it's so hilariously stupid. It's so preposterous that he even has the time to t- talk about Jeff Bezos's, uh, affair.

Jack Dorsey 55:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:45 And the fact that he got caught with the National Enquirer getting text messages and calls him Jeff Bozo, like, don't you have shit to do, man?

Jack Dorsey 55:52 (laughs) Yes.

Joe Rogan 55:52 Like as... But as a comedian, I, I, I am a gigantic fan of folly, almost, uh, against my better judgment. I like watching w- it's... I, I wa- I like watching disasters.

Jack Dorsey 56:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:05 I like watching chaos. When I see nonsense like that, I'm like, "Oh, Jesus."

Jack Dorsey 56:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:09 Like, I- I- I'm drawn like a moth to a flame. But then the other part of me is like, man, this sets a very bizarre tone for the entire country, because one, one of the things about Obama-

Jack Dorsey 56:23 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 56:23 ... like Obama or hate Obama, he was very measured, very articulate, obviously very well-educated. And I think that that aspect of his presidency was very good for all of us, because he represented something that was of a very high standard in terms of-

Jack Dorsey 56:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:41 ... his ability to communicate, his access to words, the way, the way he measured his words and held himself. I think that, that's good for us. Like, yeah.

Jack Dorsey 56:50 It's aspirational.

Joe Rogan 56:51 Well, it's... Yeah. It's like, look at that guy. He talks better than me. That's why he's the president. But, you know, you... (laughs) When you see Trump, you're like, he doesn't talk better than me.

Jack Dorsey 57:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:00 He does... He doesn't use T- Twitter better. He's not... He's just this fucking madman.

Jack Dorsey 57:06 But isn't it important to understand that?

Joe Rogan 57:07 Yes. Exactly.

Jack Dorsey 57:08 And to see it and try to... Hopefully, that informs opinions and actions and-

Joe Rogan 57:12 100%. That's my point. That's my point, is like, that this is this weird gray area where I think overall, I definitely support your decision to not, not ban him for violating your terms of service. Like, you, we need to know.

Jack Dorsey 57:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:26 You know, and it's... H- how do you know how many accounts are bots? How many... How do you know-

Jack Dorsey 57:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:34 ... how many accounts are from a Russian troll farm?

Jack Dorsey 57:36 Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 57:37 Like, how do you know that?

Jack Dorsey 57:38 So this is a real challenge and, and something that we're, uh, we're trying to wrap our, our, our heads around. But, like, one of the things we're trying to do is, like, let's scope the problem down a bit and, like, let's use the technology we have available to us, like face ID, like touch ID, like-

Joe Rogan 57:53 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 57:53 ... the biometric stuff to identify the humans. Let's identify the humans first.

Joe Rogan 57:57 So how do you use that? Because if face ID is not really avail- is it available to you guys? Do you know... You just leak, leaked something that you shouldn't have told them?

Jack Dorsey 58:03 We... No, no, no, no, no. We, we haven't, we haven't used it yet, but you can use it for things like-

Joe Rogan 58:08 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 58:08 ... is this-

Joe Rogan 58:09 Like...

Jack Dorsey 58:09 ... a human operating this? It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 58:10 For Apple Pay. You can use it for that, so-

Jack Dorsey 58:13 It's, it's completely locked into the local device. We don't have access to images of your face or whatnot, but the operating system can tell us that this is the legit owner of this phone and therefore, it is, it is human. And technology always has to change. People will find ways around that and whatnot. But if we go the opposite direction and, and we look for the bots, the problem with looking for the bots is people assume that they just come through our API, but the scripting has become extremely sophisticated. People can script the apps, can script the website, and make it look very, very human.

Joe Rogan 58:49 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 58:50 So we're, we're going after this problem first trying to identify the humans as much as we can utilizing these technologies. No- this is, is live right now. These are, these are considerations that we're making and, and trying to understand, like, what the impact would be and, and, uh, how we might evolve it. But we, we need to because that information would provide context for someone, like, this is an actual human that I'm talking to and I can invest more time in it or I can just ignore the thing because it's meaningless.

Joe Rogan 59:19 Now, is Apple willing to share that with you? I mean, when you-

Jack Dorsey 59:23 Well-

Joe Rogan 59:23 ... when you're talking about biometrics, fingerprints, or face, face ID?

Jack Dorsey 59:26 No, no, no. Not the, not the data. Just the operating system verifies that, you know, this-

Joe Rogan 59:31 That there's an individual that used it.

Jack Dorsey 59:32 It's an individual and it's unlocking.

Joe Rogan 59:34 Right.

Jack Dorsey 59:34 You know, like, like, um, you know, when, when you use the, um... Our, our cash app uses this, right? So Square's cash app, um, when you want to make a transfer to someone, when you wanna send someone money, or when you wanna buy Bitcoin, we turn on face ID and you verify that you are you and you are the owner of the phone and, and then it goes. We don't get images of your face. We don't, uh, see who you are.

Joe Rogan 59:58 Oh, that's what you want me to think. I know what you s-

Jack Dorsey 1:00:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 Yeah. (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 1:00:03 That's all locked down by the operating system and that's-

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 Right.

Jack Dorsey 1:00:05 ... where it should be.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Right. Sure. Um, what... Ha- has there ever been any consideration to not allowing people to post anonymously?

Jack Dorsey 1:00:15 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Because I- I like what you said earlier about journalists and whistleblowers, that- that is critical.

Jack Dorsey 1:00:20 Yeah, but, look... So look at, uh, look at platforms that, that have a real names policy. Look at Facebook.

Joe Rogan 1:00:25 Right.

Jack Dorsey 1:00:25 Are the problems any different?

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 I don't know, 'cause I don't go there. But from what I understand, there's a lot of, still a lot of arguing there.

Jack Dorsey 1:00:33 It's the same-

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 A lot of political arguing.

Jack Dorsey 1:00:34 ... th- they're the same-

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 A lot of old people.

Jack Dorsey 1:00:35 ... vectors, the same patterns, um-

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 Aren't they older? It's, like, older in general?

Jack Dorsey 1:00:40 It seems ... I also am not really hanging out there, but it, it seems a little bit older.

Joe Rogan 1:00:44 It's a lot of Grammys looking at pictures of their kids-

Jack Dorsey 1:00:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 ... and grandkids and stuff.

Jack Dorsey 1:00:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 And arguing about immigrants.

Jack Dorsey 1:00:48 That's what it was made for. It's, it's connecting, it's connecting with the people that you know, and, and that to me is the biggest difference with Twitter. It's connecting with people you don't know-

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 Well-

Jack Dorsey 1:00:56 ... and you find interesting and, like, it's around, it's around topics and stuff that you find, uh, that you wanna learn more about.

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 When you saw Zuckerberg testifying and, and, and realizing, like, how this platform is being used and what are the dangers of this, and then you see these senators that really don't know what the fuck the technology is or-

Jack Dorsey 1:01:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 ... it's w- it, it really highlights how we're entering-

Jack Dorsey 1:01:19 There's a gap.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 ... into this really ... Yeah. Well, not just a gap, a gap in-

Jack Dorsey 1:01:23 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 ... the critical understanding of how these things work and what they are in, in terms of, like, how these really important politicians, uh, who are the ones who are making these decisions as to whether or not someone has violated laws or whether or not something should be curbed or regulated.

Jack Dorsey 1:01:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 And they don't really even understand what they're talking about.

Jack Dorsey 1:01:44 No. I mean, it, it ... There's, there's a-

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 So few people do.

Jack Dorsey 1:01:47 Because they're not, they're not using it directly. They're not using it in the way that people are using it every single day and-

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 Right.

Jack Dorsey 1:01:53 ... they don't have the same experience that people have every single day. And, you know, in, in terms of regulatory and, and our regulators and our governments, I ... You know, we ... I think the conversation is often about how regulators will come in and start writing rules and, and setting expectations for how companies or services might behave. But there's a role for the company to educate, and there's a role for the company to educate on, like, what technology makes possible, whether it be positive and, and also some of the negatives that, that become possible as well. So, I, I think we have a role to, to help educate and to, and to help make sure that we're, you know, really ... We're, we're, we're pushing towards what I think the job of regulator, regulator is, which is, number one, protect the individual, number two, level the playing field, and make sure that those two things are not compromised by special interests trying to protect their own domain or profits or, or, uh, dominance within a particular market.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 What do you mean by level the playing field?

Jack Dorsey 1:02:57 Level the playing field-

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 1:02:58 ... so that, uh, an individual has the same opportunity, uh, that, uh, someone else might have or a company might have.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 So, uh, okay. So, like, anybody can have a Twitter account.

Jack Dorsey 1:03:10 So, anybody could ... Anyone can have a Twitter account and, you know, they have, uh, at least a, you know, an equal opportunity to contribute to it. And whatever they do with it will change the, change the outcome. Some people might become very popular because they're saying stuff people wanna hear. Some people won't see any following whatsoever because they're not adding anything original or interesting or, or, uh, or, or different in terms of perspective.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Where do you see this going? When you look at these kind of emerging technologies, not ne- necessarily emerging anymore, established now, but still, you know, a, a, a new thing in relative terms of human history, where do you see this going? And does it get more intrusive? Does it get deeper into our lives? Like, what, what ... When you look at new technologies like augmented reality and things along those lines, do you see new possibilities and new things that could make things even more complicated?

Jack Dorsey 1:04:05 I mean, yeah. I mean, we, we just have to assume that we, we naturally use more and more technologies, more and more things become open, more and more things, uh, increase of velocity. There's more communication, not less. Like, thi- this is not going away, and it's just-

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 Right.

Jack Dorsey 1:04:23 ... it's just a question of what we do with it. So where, where I want it to go is, and where I want Twitter specifically to go, is I ... You know, I, I think it's existential right now that we s- we, we have global conversations about some things that will become crisis, climate change being one of them. There's no one nation state that's going to solve that problem alone. Economic disparity being another. The, the rise of AI and, uh, job displacement and, and just, like, us offloading decisions to these, to these algorithms. Those are things that, that no one nation, no one community is going to solve alone. It takes the entire world to do so. So, I wanna make sure that we're doing our best to get people seeing these global conversations and ideally participating in them, because it, it helps, it helps us solve the problems faster. I, I just believe that more open society allows us to solve problems much faster.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 So, you, in many ways, see Twitter as having some sort of a social responsibility in this discussion.

Jack Dorsey 1:05:30 Totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I, I think a big part of it is, like, right now, like, how are we, how are we ensuring that there is more healthy contribution to that global conversation? And, you know, I, I, I just think it's so, it's so critical that we start talking about the things that are facing all of us, not just one nation. I, I do think, you know, that that's where our current model really puts the world at a disadvantage because it incentivizes more of the e- echo chambers which lead to things like nationalism instead of taking the broader picture and looking at what's happening around the world to all people, to all of humanity.

Joe Rogan 1:06:13 What do you do, though, to balance the conversation? Or what responsibility do you think you have to balance the conversation in terms of the way conservatives view it versus the way liberals and progressives view it? I mean-

Jack Dorsey 1:06:23 Balance it. I mean show-

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 I mean, but is there-

Jack Dorsey 1:06:25 ... d-

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 Is there a responsibility? Do you have a responsibility? Or is it just leave th- it up to the people and let them figure it out the same way they figured out hashtags and, and everything else?

Jack Dorsey 1:06:35 I-I think we have a responsibility to make it easier to do that.

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 Easier? How so?

Jack Dorsey 1:06:38 Right- right now, it's just, it's just too hard. Most- most people will not-

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 Venture outside of their bubble?

Jack Dorsey 1:06:43 ... you know, have a particular mindset. They will, they will not venture out. They will not break their bubble.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 Right.

Jack Dorsey 1:06:47 Um, but if you... Because it's- it's right now on the service, it's just so hard to do that. I, I can only follow accounts. And I have to, I have to look into... And just imagine like, you know, trying to get an understanding of your own politics. People can't just look at your bio. They have to look through all your tweets, they have to listen to a bunch of your podcasts and whatnot, and that's a bunch of work. If we shift it more towards topics and interest, at least we have, um, the potential to see a bunch more perspectives. We see-

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 How do you do that though?

Jack Dorsey 1:07:22 The simplest thing is like follow a hashtag, follow a topic. Like why can't you just follow Warriors Twitter or, uh, um, you know, NBA Twitter? Why do you have to go and find all the coaches and the players and- and the team?

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 So-

Jack Dorsey 1:07:38 We can do that. We- we can help make that a whole lot easier for folks.

Joe Rogan 1:07:42 So something like Brexit or something like that. So if you go to #Brexit, you're gonna get the whole conversation.

Jack Dorsey 1:07:48 Yup.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 You're gonna get the pros, the cons, the left, the right, the whole deal, the centrists.

Jack Dorsey 1:07:52 Yup.

Joe Rogan 1:07:52 You're gonna get everybody versus following the people that you already follow that agree with what you think.

Jack Dorsey 1:07:58 Yeah. The probability is higher that you'll get more.

Joe Rogan 1:08:00 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 1:08:00 You'll get more variety of perspective. The... And not even, don't even follow Brexit, follow vote leave if you wanna leave.

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Mm-hmm.

Jack Dorsey 1:08:06 But within that topic, there might be some dissenting opinions and you get to choose whether you, those inform you, whether that emboldens your position or not. But, and- and again, I'm not saying that we should force that upon it, but it's not easy to even do that today, right? The only tool we give you is finding and following the accounts. And that-

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 But when, but people search hashtags. They do search hashtags, right?

Jack Dorsey 1:08:29 They- they- they don't.

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 They don't?

Jack Dorsey 1:08:30 They stay in their timeline. I mean, it, a small percentage of people. The people that really know Twitter know how to do that. But most people, they follow an account and they stay in their timeline. And what, their world is their timeline.

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 Hashtags can be corrupted too. I mean, people-

Jack Dorsey 1:08:44 Totally, they can be gamed.

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 1:08:45 They can be gamed-

Joe Rogan 1:08:46 Yeah, I-

Jack Dorsey 1:08:46 ... and taken over.

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 I took over #vegancat.

Jack Dorsey 1:08:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:50 Go to #vegancat now.

Jack Dorsey 1:08:51 What- what is, what is that?

Joe Rogan 1:08:51 It's a wrap. That's mine now. (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 1:08:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:56 I had been in my last, uh, my last Netflix special about a woman who said a bunch of horrible things to me, uh, because I put a picture up on Instagram of some deer meat and I wrote, "This is some meat from a deer that liked to kick babies and was about to join ISIS." And then I wrote #vegan, which was a mistake, right, to- to write #vegan to mock- but the, the #vegan people went fucking crazy and came after me because I entered into their timeline with meat. (laughs)

Jack Dorsey 1:09:20 There it is.

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 So now if you go to #vegancat, it's all either pictures of, uh, see, like it says Joe Rogan, right? "Thank you. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. #vegancat." It's people that are feeding their fucking cat vegan food and they're all dying.

Jack Dorsey 1:09:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:36 And I, in the special I say, "Every cat looks like it's living in a house with a gas leak." Like they're all like-

Jack Dorsey 1:09:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:42 ... like laying down like, "Where the fuck is the real food?" But this is real. Like this-

Jack Dorsey 1:09:45 Generates a conversation. It's a different perspective.

Joe Rogan 1:09:47 But the thing is if someone does something like that, like you can like, pick a person, you know, whatever that person is, whatever they're- they're- they're doing. If they have a hashtag that they utilize all the time for their movement or whatever, someone could mock them and then use that. And if it's a public figure or someone who's got a prominent voice, then all of a sudden that hashtag becomes, people just take it over and start mocking them-

Jack Dorsey 1:10:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:12 ... with that hashtag.

Jack Dorsey 1:10:13 But it has to be done in mass. I mean, it has to be coordinated.

Joe Rogan 1:10:15 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 1:10:15 And sometimes people like figure out how to game the system and coordinate it in a amplify that message in a unfair way.

Joe Rogan 1:10:22 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 1:10:22 And- and that's what, that's what our systems are trying to recognize.

Joe Rogan 1:10:24 How sick did that cat look?

Narrator 1:10:26 It looked pretty sick.

Jack Dorsey 1:10:27 That poor fucking cat. That was a real one. That was a real #vegancat.

Joe Rogan 1:10:30 Wow.

Jack Dorsey 1:10:31 Those poor bastards. Um, so when you look back at emerging social media, like we go all the way back to MySpace, right? MySpace, you got Tom. Tom was sitting there in your, in your top eight. And, you know, people would like post music that they liked and it was never political. It was very, often very surface. And for comics, it was a great way to promote shows and it was, it was an interesting way to see things. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:03 But it was, it was like the, like the seed that became Twitter or Facebook or any of these other-

Jack Dorsey 1:11:09 It was one of them. I- I think we, at least for us, like we got more of our roots from AOL Instant Messenger and ICQ.

Joe Rogan 1:11:17 Mm. ICQ.

Jack Dorsey 1:11:18 Because it- it was, you know, you remember the status message where you said like, "I'm in a meeting." Or, "I'm listening to this music."

Joe Rogan 1:11:24 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 1:11:24 "Or I'm watching a movie right now."

Joe Rogan 1:11:26 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Dorsey 1:11:26 That was the inspiration.

Joe Rogan 1:11:27 Oh.

Jack Dorsey 1:11:28 And- and what we took from that was being able to like, if you could do that from anywhere, not bound to a desk, but you could do that from anywhere. You could do it from your phone and you could just be roaming around and say, you know, "I'm at- I'm at Joe Rogan's, um, studio right now." That is cool. I don't need my computer. I'm not bound to this, chained to this desk. I can, I can do it from anywhere. And then the other aspect of- of Instant Messenger was, of course, chat. So one of the things that the status would do is you might, you might say like, you know, "I'm listening to Kendrick Lamar right now," and I might hit you up on chat and say like, "What do you th- what do you think of the new album?" But now, it's all public.

Joe Rogan 1:12:05 Right.

Jack Dorsey 1:12:05 So it's just, it, everyone can see it. That's- that's the biggest difference and that- and that's, that to me is what Twitter is. It... My- MySpace was, it was profiles and, you know, people organized around these profiles and, uh, this network that developed between people and that is Facebook. Facebook- Facebook optimized the hell out of that and they scaled the world. We- we were something very different. We, you know, we- we started with that simple status and then people wanted to talk about it and we- we decided that it should be on the same surface. It shouldn't be suburbiant to the, to the, to the status. It should be part of that flow and that's what makes Twitter, you know, so fluid.

Joe Rogan 1:12:49 Now, when you look at this sort of-

Jack Dorsey 1:12:51 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 1:12:52 ... metamorphosis or this evolution between those initial social media, whether it's AOL, Instant Messenger, or the... Eventually, it became like ICQ. And what was that one that we would use, that gamers would use, that it was like a, a live stream-

Jack Dorsey 1:13:08 Twitch.

Joe Rogan 1:13:08 ... sort of message board? No, it was like... (gasps) For a while, people were using TeamSpeak, but I don't- No, no, it wasn't that. I don't know if that's when you were playing. That's more recent. Wasn't that. Wasn't that. Wasn't TeamSpeak. It was, um, like you would go there and share files and stuff. And, and people would, uh, would, would go... Like, if... I used to play a lot of online video games-

Jack Dorsey 1:13:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:27 ... and we'd play on teams. And we'd have teams go and play other teams. And we would use this sort of, uh... It was like a... It wasn't a message board because it was all in real time.

Jack Dorsey 1:13:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:39 What the fuck was it called? (bangs table) OnLive? No. No? Okay. All right, forget it. Yeah, sorry. Anyway, uh, guys would go there and you could send people files through it.

Jack Dorsey 1:13:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:49 And, you know, teams would go and meet, and there would be a chat, like an online chat-

Jack Dorsey 1:13:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:54 ... that would be, be in real time.

Jack Dorsey 1:13:55 Yeah. It's... Yeah, I mean, we have a lot of our roots in AOL and some Messenger, but also like IRC, Internet Relay Chat, and Usenet, which were the, you know, these old internet '70s technologies.

Joe Rogan 1:14:05 IRC is what I was talking about. Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:06 IRC?

Joe Rogan 1:14:07 Yeah. That's what I was talking about.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:07 Yeah. Okay, okay.

Joe Rogan 1:14:08 Yeah.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:08 So, Internet Relay Chat is, is-

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:10 ... like this giant chat room that anyone can join-

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 Yes.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:12 ... and so arrange around topics and...

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 That's, um... What's interesting about that is you could see people typing, you see it occurring in real time. You see it popping up in real time.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:21 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:14:22 You know? Um, just... I wonder, like, what is the next evolution of this? 'Cause because no one saw anything going from ICQ to Twitter. No one saw anything going from that to Instagram and to where we're at right now, where it really does flavor the conversation of our entire culture. I mean, the, the... Before, it was just a thing that was happening, that was happening on people's computers.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:45 Now, it's a thing that's happening on people's computers and now phones and now your whole life. It's a, it's, it's a very different influence.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:53 And I, I wonder, w-... 'Cause everything does accelerate.

Jack Dorsey 1:14:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:56 Things constantly move forward w-... And become more and more, um, more and more integrated into our life experience. And I wonder what is the next stage of this.

Jack Dorsey 1:15:09 It... If... I mean, like, the, the secular trends and, you know, you look at technology and you look at technologies like, like blockchain, for instance, and I think, you know, we're, we're moving to a world where anything created exists forever. Um, that there's no centralized control over who sees what. Um, that, uh, you know, these, these, these models become completely decentralized, and all these barriers, um, that we... that exist today aren't as important anymore. And-

Joe Rogan 1:15:43 What do you think of something like Gab? Like, Gab seems to be a response to the fact that some people are getting banned from other platforms, and they're just allowing anybody to come on and say anything they want.

Jack Dorsey 1:15:54 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:15:55 The downside of that is, of course, the most horrible people are gonna be able to say anything they want with no repercussions. The good side is anybody can say whatever they want.

Jack Dorsey 1:16:05 Yeah. I haven't studied them too much, but I do know that they have taken action on accounts as well. They have suspended accounts, and they have... They have a terms of service as well.

Joe Rogan 1:16:13 What are they... What have they suspended accounts for? Do you know?

Jack Dorsey 1:16:15 I- I don't know. I- it's, it's probably conduct-related. It's probably... It might be doxing, you know? Um...

Joe Rogan 1:16:20 Mm. Probably, right?

Jack Dorsey 1:16:21 But it's just a, it's just a question of, like, you know, the rules, and if you agree to the rules, then, you know, you sign up for the service. And if, if not, um, there will be other services. But, like, it... I-... You look at, you look at the trends, and I, I think, um... You know. And I-... Certainly, things become a lot more public. Certainly, things become a lot more open. Certainly, the, the, the barriers and the boundaries that we have in place today become less meaningful. And I think there's a lot of positives in that, and I th-... I also think there's a lot of danger that we need to be mindful of.

Joe Rogan 1:16:57 Now, you, as a CEO, as a guy who's running this thing, what, what has this been... has the experience been like for you? 'Cause I gotta imagine that it wasn't anything that you predicted. No one predicted Twitter, right?

Jack Dorsey 1:17:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:10 So, to all of a sudden have this responsibility-

Jack Dorsey 1:17:13 Twitter changed everything. I mean, it, it-

Joe Rogan 1:17:15 And you're a young guy. How old are you?

Jack Dorsey 1:17:16 42.

Joe Rogan 1:17:17 That's young to be in control of that much. Like, what... And to have it over the time of... What has it been? Uh, 11 years?

Jack Dorsey 1:17:26 13 years. Will be 13 in March, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:29 13 years? Yeah, so you were really fucking young.

Jack Dorsey 1:17:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:31 Like, what has that been like for you?

Jack Dorsey 1:17:34 It's been, uh... It's been both beautiful and scary and uncomfortable and learning. (laughs) It's just been a ton of learning and evolving and, like, it shows me every single day where I need to push myself and what I don't know. And, uh, and I... I think a big part is, like, just the realization that we're not gonna be able to do this alone, and I don't think we have to either. The... These are w-... These are what the technologies continue to allow, is we can... I- if, if we have to have all the answers around enforcement or policy, whatnot, we're, we're not going to serve the world. We have aspirations to serve every single person on the planet, and we, we have aspirations to, you know, be the first consideration for the global