EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,001 words- 0:00 – 3:06
Going live & the origin story of “Catch Me Outside”
- JRJoe Rogan
... and five, four, three, two, one. (sound of microphone being hit) Is it hanging up on us?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
We're live?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
We're live. Dr. Phil, we're live. Someone's calling you. What's going on? Tell these people to fuck off. (laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, some of those people I was trying to find. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Now they're saying, "Oh, shit."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(laughs) You know, let them worry.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, out of all the years you've been doing your show and all the years you've been giving advice, how, how did this Catch Me Outside girl, how did this happen?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Oh, God.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Out of all the different shows.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I got to go now. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Out of all the different shows, you made a monster.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I know. I mean, it's my moment of infamy.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Uh, no seriously, this girl comes on with her mother (clears throat) and... Or her mother actually brings her on, of course, and, uh, uh, she's a train wreck. And we work with her, and we send her to this ranch for, like, four months, right? She goes for a long time and makes a complete turnaround, does a, really, a great job. They say she's become a leader. She's working with all these girls, doing a great job. And then she graduates, and I remember this last shot when we do this, this piece at the ranch. She jumps up on this fence and is smiling and everything, and waving and all. One night home with her mother, one night, and her mother's finding people that are trashing her, the mother, on, on, uh, these social media platforms. Her mother tracks them down, backs him to who they are, gets their phone numbers, calls them up, yelling into the phone, calling them names and stuff, gets the daughter involved. One night crashes. So they come back for a follow-up, like, I don't know, a month or two later, and when they come, I say, "Okay, we're gonna have them back." They walk out, I have the audience completely empty. I have nobody there to play to. I mean, 250 chairs empty, nobody in the house but me, the mother, and the daughter.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a good move.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And they go, "What? Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, well, where is everybody?" I said, "Well, you don't need anybody. We're just here to talk and, you know, keep things rolling," right? And they were dumbstruck. They, there was nobody there to showboat for or, or play to, and that was like a 15-minute interview. They had nothing to say. And off they go, and then (sighs) this phrase that got turned into a, you know, whatever, a meme or whatever they call it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... um, it just went crazy. And what, I... She was nominated for a Grammy or something?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Serio- I'm serious. Uh... (clapping sounds)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
So I'm... I, I take no credit or blame. I, you know, I just did what I could and haven't seen or said... I wish everybody well. Maybe she'll turn some... Maybe it'll grow her up, she'll turn something positive out of it. I hope so.
- 3:06 – 6:23
Why some chaos goes viral (and why it feels unfair)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's a very good attitude, a very healthy attitude for you. But it is... When something goes viral like that, something strange that, for whatever reason, it catches and takes off, it's... It doesn't make any sense. It's a very weird thing.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Y- It makes no sense.
- JRJoe Rogan
She's on a billboard on Sunset, a giant billboard.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Oh, really?
- JRJoe Rogan
Huge.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Enormous billboard. It's like one of those side-of-the-building billboards.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Oh, my God.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where they, you know, they put the, the graphic up and it covers the entire building.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Uh, it, it makes no sense. I mean, wh- wh- what, seriously?
- JRJoe Rogan
Seriously.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And then, there's people curing cancer-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... and you can't find 'em with both hands.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Exactly. Nobody has any idea-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... who won the last Nobel Prize for science.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, exactly. Uh, but, you know, uh, you know, more power to her. I... If, if she can turn into something positive, I, I... Does she have talent? Have you ever heard any of her music or anything?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I have no idea.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Me neither.
- JRJoe Rogan
I've only seen her on your show say-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "Catch me outside."
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, appreciate you bringing that up.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Sorry. (laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(clapping sound) But it's just so strange that one train wreck could, for whatever reason, catch on, and then all of a sudden, it's gigantic.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, they say that somebody signed her and paid her millions of dollars. Seriously, they seem to make it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, she got, like, uh, close to a million dollars from a makeup company.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Really?
- 6:23 – 12:55
Advice at scale: complex problems, simple solutions
- JRJoe Rogan
What... Is there... I mean, it has to be a lot of responsibility to try to give people advice, and try to straighten their life out and show them the, the flaws and the errors that they're making.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. You know, it is. And you know, people ask me sometimes, they say, "You know, Dr. Phil, our problems... Do you think problems are as simple as you make 'em out to be?" And the truth is, I don't think problems are simple at all. In fact, I think problems are really, most of the time, pretty complex. They're pretty layered. They have a lot of different origins, and they're oftentimes comorbid. A lot of things exist together. So I don't think problems are simple at all, but the solutions are often simple, don't you think? I mean, it, it's kind of like the old joke. You go to the doctor and you say, "This hurts." And he says, "Well, then don't do that anymore."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
You, you know? It's... A lot of times, it's very simple in that somebody will have a complex thing that comes from childhood, or maybe it's a drug background, or they've had trauma in their life. But the solution is change your behavior. I mean, stop rewarding bad behavior. Uh, choose a different path in life. Just behave your way to success. Sometimes the solutions are very simple, even though the, the problems are very complex because at some point, you have to stop focusing on why and start focusing on what. Instead of why it happened, what am I gonna do to change it? So sometimes the solutions are pretty simple.
- JRJoe Rogan
But implementing those solutions are often very... It's often very difficult for people to change their lives, change their patterns.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
It is. And, and patterns is the key. Um, you know, nobody does anything in pattern if they don't get a payoff. And if you can identify... Th- that's why, that's why insight's so important. That's why I think it's the number one outcome to whether somebody's gonna respond to a talking therapy, for example. If somebody can identify what their payoff is, where they really can figure out, "I'm doing this repeatedly, and my payoff is I don't have to work, or I don't get held accountable for this, or I'm escaping accountability over here, or I get attention or sympathy, or..." If they can figure out what their payoff is, and they can then control that, whether it's for themselves or their kids or whatever. If you control the currency, then you can control the behavior.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. Yeah. It's... It just seems that people have, uh, they have this comfort in their patterns, and even if their patterns are self-destructive, even if it's drug abuse or alcoholism or... The, the, those, those... The comfort in those patterns, falling into those patterns, it seems very compelling to a lot of people.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. And payoffs don't necessarily mean that it's a positive payoff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I mean, a payoff for taking heroin is you get high, and so you're high for a while. That's not a positive payoff, but it's a payoff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And if you, if, if, if you get high and so you don't get a job and you don't take care of your kids, that's a payoff that you're not doing things that you need to do that you should be accountable for. It's a pathological payoff, but it's a payoff nonetheless. And so that does reward you, even though it's a pathological payoff, it's a pathological thing. Uh, you call it a reward. And if, if you... But if you can identify that where they say, "Look, I'm, uh, uh, I'm not doing what I need to do and I need to stop rewarding myself in that way and hold myself account... I need to be there for my kid. I tell my kid I'm gonna be there every day and I don't show up because I'm high on drugs, then, you know, I need to stop doing that. I don't need to l... I need to not let myself get away with that, and instead require myself to show up for the kid when I say I do... say I will." And then you see what's in the kid's eyes. You share the experience with them. Now, that becomes your payoff. So then you'll start showing up for your kid.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. How, how many people take your advice? How many people just listen and try for a little bit and then bail?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
You know, it, it's hard to say because I think our... Sometimes our most productive guests are the ones that don't get it, because the mail we get, they'll say, "Oh, wow, that guy didn't get it," or, "That woman didn't get it, but I saw myself in them, and I'll never say that again."
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
"I saw them being such a right fighter," or, "I saw them being so hard-headed or so oppositional, and I s... I, I heard them say things I've said, and they left and didn't get it. I got it. I'll never do that again." So sometimes those that don't get it at all while they're there are the ones that are the best teaching tools for the millions of people that are at home watching.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it? When you watch people fail and you go, "Oh, okay. I see that in myself."
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"I just gotta not do what that guy's doing." And then also you see the stubborn pigheadedness that some people have where they won't listen to advice.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you could clearly see how they're ruining their lives by not being honest.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. And sometimes the story that we might have is maybe extreme, where you say, "I don't do all six things they're doing, but I do two of them, and they are in sharp relief to me. So I get that. I ain't gonna do that anymore." So I mean, that's where I think you get a payoff. And, you know, people go and find these things on the internet. I mean, last year... You know, we have a channel where we put up, you know, different clips, and-... uh, divorce shows or parenting shows or whatever, and, uh, we had over two billion views, you know, last year of people just going and finding that information and looking at it. So, I know people are seeking the information out and looking at it beyond the show itself.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
So, you know, uh, they, they must be seeking information, and we just don't have a good distribution system, uh, for mental health in America. So I think they look, uh, I think they're hungry for it and they look for it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's so many people out there that are trying to do better.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
They're trying to get their lives in order, and, you know, shows like yours and, and, uh, you know, just advice shows, people that are giving out inspiration and knowledge, it's so, uh, uh, it's such a, a, an important thing for people, especially for people that, uh, didn't grow up with wise parents or maybe a good support system around them.
- 12:55 – 15:32
Understanding payoffs: how patterns persist (even destructive ones)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat) You know, I, I think that's, uh, that's true, and... You know, I grew up with a alcoholic father, and it was a pretty violent home, and, and he was a really bad alcoholic. And (clears throat) I know having grown up in that, you, you wind up with what I call a damaged personal truth, and you feel second-class. And the problem that kids make, and I, 'cause I know I did it and, and I, and I see others do it, is you compare your personal truth, what you know about yourself and, you know, how you really live and what's really going on, you compare your personal truth to everybody else's social mask. 'Cause you go to school and you know, well, I know that last night the windows got kicked out of my house. I know that the utilities got turned off, and I know there was a big fight in my kitchen last night. And the kid sitting next to me, he's got on a shirt that's all ironed and his face is all bright and clean and, you know, he looks like he's just got it all together. And you compare yourself to that pers- that kid, and you feel like you're second-class. And the problem with that is we generate the results in life we think we deserve. So if you think you're damaged, you think you're second-class, you will generate results that you think a second-class person deserves.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
So if you don't fix your personal truth, then you'll spend the rest of your life saying, "Well, you know, those really good results, those belong for somebody else."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
"That's not for me. That's for somebody else." And you'll settle for second-best, and you won't get what you might otherwise generate for yourself if you don't fix your personal truth. And so I think a lot of people are struggling, looking for a way to kind of get out of feeling not good about themselves and damaged self-esteem, damaged self-worth, and they really don't know where to go. So, uh, and that's why I do the show. I don't... Look, I'm not out of the misapprehension that we're doing eight-minute cures up there. I mean, come on. You, you, you, uh, we're not doing that. But I think if you can point people in the right direction, if you can raise their awareness, you can get them thinking about it, you can create a narrative where they at least say, you know, "How do I feel about myself?" I mean, "Is there stuff I need to resolve?" I mean, "What am I saying to myself?" If you can get them thinking about that, then, you know, maybe you've done something.
- 15:32 – 18:53
Incremental change, accountability, and removing stigma around mental health
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you know, Tony Robbins once said once that, uh, it's incremental changes over the long haul, and the way you have to look at it is if these two boats are going in a parallel direction and one of them just shifts five degrees-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... over the course of time, this boat is gonna be in a far different place than the other boat that's going the same way it was always going.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, and the important thing to realize as well is (clears throat) the next year is gonna go by whether you're doing something about your life or not. I mean, we're, we're sitting here right now at the end of February, and the next ten months are gonna go by whether somebody is working to make change or whether they're not. And they may think, you know, "Oh my God, I'm so far overweight, I'll never get it under control," or, "I'm so behind in my bills," or, "I'm so, um, you know, just depressed," or, uh, "My everything is so out of control." Well, you know what? You make those incremental changes and then, you know, pretty soon i- in December you go, "Hey, I'm way better off than I was at the end of February." So shit, w- you made little changes and they all added up. And if you don't, by the end of the year, you're just in deeper. So every little bit matters.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I, I tell people to write things down. I say one of the best ways to get things done is to write things down, write down what you're trying to get done, write down what you need to get done on a long-term basis and what you need to get done on a short-term basis, and write off a checklist. Force yourself. Be accountable.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, the difference between a dream and a goal is a timeline and accountability.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Accountability is gigantic.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
You gotta have somebody, uh, whether it's yourself or a friend or somebody that's gonna say, "Look, did you do what you said you were gonna do by this time? And if you don't, hold your feet to the fire." Because, I mean, just sitting around dreaming, "Some day," you know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
"Someday I'm gonna get a different job. Someday I'm gonna change this." Well, someday ain't a day of the week. You know, there's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Look on your calendar. Someday's not on there. So you, you gotta say, "Okay, uh, I wanna take this small step by here, this small step by there, this small step by there," and then pretty soon... You know, we don't leap s- tall buildings in a single bound. We take it a floor at a time. And that matters.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, over all the years you've been doing your show, you've developed a real community, right? I mean, you, you, you really have made an impact. If you stop and think about all the people... that your show's touched, and all the people that have listened to your advice, and all the people that have taken that advice and, and made those little incremental changes in their lives and set those goals and held themselves accountable, I mean, that's a pretty significant thing.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Well, I, I hope so. I mean, I, uh, I think... Uh, I know that...... there's a stigma attached to mental illness, and that really bothers me. There should not be. I mean, having depression or anxiety or whatever to me should have no more stigma than having a knee injury or a kidney infection or-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... diabetes. But there is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... a stigma attached to it. And I've tried to talk about this in a way where it's okay to talk about it and not be ashamed of it. It's, it's okay. If you've got anxiety, you got PTSD, what, whatever, l- it's okay. Let's talk about it, let's get help for it, get it behind you and move on. I mean, it, it's not, it's not something that you should be ashamed of.
- 18:53 – 29:36
Depression treatment philosophy: act first, medicate carefully
- JRJoe Rogan
What are you... When you're talking to someone that maybe has depression, do you try to get them to exercise first? Do you try to get them-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
... to visit a psychiatrist immediately and get on medication? Like, do you take it on a case-by-case basis?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Well, I do. But y- you have to approach it... Everybody has a philosophy about it. And I'm not saying that mine's any better than anybody else's, but I do have a philosophy about it, and I'm very slow to medication. I mean, I, I think-
- JRJoe Rogan
Good for you.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... I think you use medication for biochemical replacement. I mean, if for some reason your body is not making enough of something it needs, then maybe you support it short term biochemically. But, you know, I, (clears throat) I, I look at depression... I, I... There's a lot of ways you can break it up, but I look at it like, is it exogenous depression or endogenous depression? I mean, is it coming from the inside out, or the outside in? Is it because you're reacting to something? I see a lot of depressed people that, in a sense, it makes sense.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I mean, you look at their life and you say, "Well, if you're not down about this, you should be. I mean, you've lost your job, you've gotten a divorce, your health is in the shitter, your... I mean, you should be down about this." It's external things, so y- you don't need a pill, I mean, to put somebody in a chemical straitjacket because their life's falling apart. What the hell's that gonna do?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Th- that's just putting goggles on them where they can't see it. I, I would much rather get them to behave their way to success and say, "What are you reacting to that you're depressed about? Let's put that on a to-do list and start," like you said, "Write it down, and start crossing those things off. Let's figure, what's an action plan to change this? An action plan to change the next thing, an action plan..." And then when you start doing that, then you generally see their mood lift. A lot of people that are depressed are just realistically reacting to a crummy circumstance in their life. It's not necessarily a, a mental illness, it's just a re- realistic reaction to a bad spot in their life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that's such a way, good way of putting it too.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
That if you weren't in a bad state looking at this, th- there might be something wrong with you.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, you're in denial if-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I mean, if, if, if you've gotten a divorce, lost your job, your health's in bad shape, your kids are alienated from you, and you're saying, "I'm fine," then you're not in touch with reality.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I mean, you should be bothered by that. And, and I think to give somebody a pill to mask your feelings about that just keeps you off task. I don't... You know, pain's a good motivator. Um, you know, I, I grew up in like Texas and Oklahoma, (clears throat) and I don't know if you've ever done this, but we were... I used to spend my summers in the thriving metropolis of Munday, Texas. You ever heard of Munday, Texas?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) No.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
It's M-U-N... It's a U, not an O. M-U-N-D-A-Y. It's got like 2,000 people in it. But in the summers, it would get hot in Munday, Texas. Uh, when I say hot, I mean you look out in the backyard and your dog burst into flames.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
That's what I'm talking about. (clears throat) So we would be going to the swimming pool or something barefooted, and you get halfway across an asphalt road, and you look down and your f- I mean, like, holy shit. I mean, your feet are just on fire. So what are you gonna do? I mean, that is painful. You're gonna do one of two things. You're either gonna make a U-turn and get your ass back over to the side of the road and get in the grass, or you're gonna run to the other side and get off the road and get in the grass. But you're not going to stand there in the middle of the road and melt yourself down to the knees.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Pain is a motivator. Pain is not necessarily always bad. If you're in pain, it's gonna motivate you to move, to change something, and to mash that with drugs, to dull that pain with drugs, is not necessarily a good thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
That is wise, wise advice. And I'm-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
I wish more people thought that way, particularly more doctors. You know, I have so many friends that have gone to a doctor 'cause they're not feeling so good and th- they're almost immediately wanting to throw them on something.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
That's not smart.
- 29:36 – 31:46
Overmedication, ADHD labels, and when meds truly matter
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Um, I, I know people that have been on things since they were five years old.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they're in their 40s. Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. And then you have wastebasket diagnoses like ADD and ADHD, where, you know, what used to be a spoiled brat is now ADD or ADHD-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... so they start prescribing, um, these-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ritalin.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... neocortical stimulants like Ritalin. And if you give a kid that does not need a neocortical stimulant a stimulant, you're really gonna throw 'em off the charts now, 'cause you're -- you've got a normally active brain that you're now making hyperactive. So you're creating a problem that didn't exist before you gave them the medication because you didn't do the proper diagnosis.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I had my old neighbor had a situation like that. They had a kid, and the kid was just -- had a lot of energy, and they weren't paying attention to him. And so they started medicating him.It's insanely common.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. And you, you, you cannot chemically babysit your children.
- JRJoe Rogan
And who knows where these kids are gonna be 20, 30 years from now? I mean, we're just looking at e- this rash of people being treated for these ailments, air quotes, and then w- we're not seeing how this all turns out in the long run and how much damage we're doing to these people.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
No. And, and, in fairness, on the other end of the continuum, I have seen some people that are clearly psychotic, uh, schizophrenics, delusional, that without medication are absolutely impossible to manage. But if you put 'em on antipsychotics, and so you can lower their delusional behavior, their hallucinatory behavior, so you can now have a meaningful conversation with them so they can respond to talking therapies, it makes all the difference in the world. And without those antipsychotics, you would be lost-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... without them. So there are some medications for some disorders that are absolute miracles that without them, you wouldn't be able to do the work you need to do to get the person back where they need to be.
- 31:46 – 37:51
Opioid epidemic: incentives, addiction odds, and policy accountability
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, unquestionably. I mean, there's definitely a lot of great pharmaceutical drugs that help a lot of people. Do you get pushback from a lot of these positions from, uh, the established medical community?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
You know, sometimes. But I, you know, mostly when you talk to people about it thoughtfully, um, they agree with, with what I'm saying. I mean, most people will agree that you need to be thoughtful about, uh, prescribing medications, and that medications are too readily administered. I mean, that's certainly what we've seen in the opioid epidemic right now. Um, opioids are so readily prescribed right now that there are enough opioid prescriptions for every man, woman, and child in America to have their own bottle.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whew.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And if you renew that prescription one time, one time, if you are taking those opioids at the seven-day mark, your chance of being addicted at one year is one in 12. And if you renew it at... If you're still taking 'em at 30 days, your likelihood of being addicted is one in three.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And these things are getting written with way too high a pill count. And it's, and so the addictions, uh, we're, we're seeing a whole different kind of addiction now coming out of the suburbs. And they take 'em for a while, and they're very expensive, and after they take 'em for a while, heroin's cheaper. So they dump the opioids and start taking the heroin. So you're seeing soccer mom heroin addicts that you weren't seeing 10 years ago, because they get started on prescription opioids, and then they can't afford them, or finally the doctor cuts them off, but they're addicted, and so they start taking heroin 'cause it's cheaper.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, this is obviously a very disturbing pattern, but where do you see this going? Like, when you look at the future, I mean, it looks bleak in that regard. I mean, I've known several people that have had real problems with pills.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. The problem that, that I think people have is they think, "Well, because a doctor gave me this, because it's on a prescription-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... pad, that this is safe." It, it... Your body doesn't know whether you got that in a back alley or you got it from a doctor. Um, it, it still has the same addictive quality. And I think it is at an epidemic level. And I've testified before Congress about this, and I, I think there are several levels of accountability, at the manufacturing level, and at the prescription level, and at the educational level, so people understand. Uh, I think everybody has to take part of it, and I'm doing everything I can to raise the awareness about it as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
When you testified before Congress, what was the reaction?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Uh, they're very much aware, uh, that this has become a serious, serious problem, because the, the cost, a- as, as you see the lost labor in the workforce is in the billions of dollars. You, you see the, the, uh, demands on the healthcare system that this is creating, um, young mothers with, with children and babies born addicted, uh, to these opioids. I mean, the numbers are just going through the roof. So I, I mean, it's putting a strain financially on the healthcare system that it just can't stand. So y- you, you start costing money and it starts getting politicians' op- attention. So they start saying, "Okay, now we gotta start doing something." So they, they get it. They get that there's a problem.
- JRJoe Rogan
What could they do though once the, it seems like once that genie's out of the bottle...
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Well, clearly, th- you've got to start educating people, and the manufacturers have to be required to start labeling this much more clearly. Physicians have to be much more, um, uh, conservative in prescribing. Um, you know, I just had this shoulder surgery, and, um, I, I took like one, one opioid, one pill they gave me in the hospital, and after that, y- you can manage it with like Tylenol or something, 'cause the surgeons now are so good with the arthroscopic surgeries and stuff. It's so, so much less of an insult to the body, uh, that with ice and Tylenol and stuff, you can manage it if you just kind of focus on it a little bit. And, and I'm not saying if, if you've had surgery and, and you're having organic pain, for God's sakes, get ahead of the pain and stay ahead. But...... when you -- as soon as you can get off of it, get off of it. You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and understand what's happening.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. There, there's no sense in being like macho, but you don't need a leather strap between your teeth to go have some surgery.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I mean, shit, if it hurts, take the pill and get past it. But realize, the minute you can get away from that, you need to get away from it. But, you know, they don't need to give you a 30-day supply.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
They need to give you three or four days.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And then you gotta go see your doctor again, and if it's still a problem, discuss it. I mean, that's what th- that's what I think needs to happen, is just be a lot more conservative about what you're giving.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is the... The problem is these pharmaceutical companies make so much money.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yes, they do.
- JRJoe Rogan
They don't wanna, they don't wanna back off that. They got private jets and yachts to pay for.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. And they're starting to shut down some of these... They had some of these pill clinics in, pain clinics in Florida.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Where, you know, you could go in without an X-ray, without an MRI, and just say you had back pain, and there was a doctor there that would give you a 90-count prescription on the spot, no questions asked. 90.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And you're out the door, and you go down the street to the next one.
- 37:51 – 48:09
Why Dr. Phil built a podcast: scaling the message beyond daytime TV
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, one can only hope. Um, when... You've been doing your show as long as you've been doing it. And I'm sure you, you've made a, a ton of loot. What, what makes you want to do a podcast? Why are you doing that?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Well, my interest has been... You know, I was saying there were a lot of people getting their information, uh, on the internet by getting clips of the show and that sort of thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And it's clear to me that as the population is changing, you know, I'm an old guy, but y- y- younger people are getting their information in different ways. You know, they're-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... going to the internet. And the digital menu has got to be readily available, and you can reach a lot of people that way that you wouldn't reach the other way. There's a whole population that's not gonna watch broadcast television during the day.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And there's a whole population that's watching broadcast television during the day that maybe isn't on, i- in the digital space. And if I can get a crossover between the two, and you can get a bigger audience to spread your message, then, you know, that's what you're doing. Uh, my goal is to spread the message and get what I think's important to say out there. So, I mean, I'll shout it from the rooftops if that's what I can... If, if I think that's effective. I want to do anything that's scalable to get the message out there. And, and to me, uh, I'm doing, I'm doing some different things in the podcast than I'm doing on the show. On the show, I've got a fact pattern in front of me. I've got a story, I got a family, got an individual that's got a specific fact pattern. I'm dealing with that fact pattern. In the podcast, I'm not solving a problem. I don't have somebody there that has a problem for me to solve. I'm just talking to people that I find interesting, and I'm able to talk to them about whatever I want to talk to them about. And discuss things like you and I are talking about right now. I think this is... I think what we've been talking about is an important discussion, and I welcome the opportunity to have that discussion. And I c- I don't have time to do that when I'm talking about somebody who's sitting there saying, "You know, I, I think my kid is on the precipice of overdosing, or is really in trouble." And I, I gotta focus on that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I don't have time to pontificate about such things as the opioid epidemic or the philosophy of pills versus therapy and things of that nature, 'cause I have to give all my attention to the story in front of me. Uh, in a podcast environment, like we're doing now, I can talk about things that I think people need to hear. I think it's... If they don't, they don't have to listen, but if they, if they're interested, it's there. So I like it being more freeform and me being able to talk about things. Um, I've been talking about what makes people a champion. Like I talked to Tony Romo right after the Super Bowl about, you know, he came from Eastern Illinois University. It's like, uh, what? Nine students or something?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
It was a little bitty university. And he turns out to be quarterback of America's team for 14 years, set all kinds of records, and then goes to the booth and becomes the number one color analyst in television. I mean, champion, champion, champion. Why? You know, what is it that... What do you attribute that to? I, I like asking those questions and hearing people talk.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
What do you say to young people about that? What made you a champion? Are you gonna let your kids play football w- with all this CTE and stuff? What, what do you say? I, I like having those kind of conversations. Did the same thing with Shaq and Charles Barkley and different people.
- JRJoe Rogan
What did he say about what makes you a champion?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
You know, for him, um, he said that he has this, um... He says he didn't... He wasn't the kind of swagger sort of person that, you know, came in cocky like he was gonna own the field and own the game. But inside, he said he had this absolute drive that if he didn't win, he couldn't live with it. It's like if somebody thought... Like, if he played the game, somebody beat them, beat him, that just the idea that that person went home thinking that they were better than him, that they could beat him, that he just couldn't eat, sleep, think (laughs) until he got back and owned it again and got back to it. He said he just... It was this drive to win.And so he would, uh, uh, I mean, he said he would be out at one o'clock in the morning in the dome throwing a pass that that route got intercepted. He got jumped on that route. And he'd be trying to figure out why on Thursday in practice, he saw what he needed to see. Why didn't he see it on Sunday? And he would analyze and analyze and analyze until he could get there, until he could do it, until he could win it. He just had this drive to win. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That super unhealthy obsession, they all share that.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
They do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Michael Jordan had that. I mean, we've talked about that several times on the podcast. So many people that are extreme winners, they're psychotic in their ex- obsession with winning.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's all they wanna do. And if they lose, they- they- they, uh, it's almost insufferable. They almost can't deal with it.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. Uh, and I, I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing, but the difference between winners and losers is winners do things losers do not want to do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
They, they will get up in the middle of the night. They will do this, they will do that.
- JRJoe Rogan
They feel it more.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
They just do things losers don't want to do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
They'll pay a price losers just don't want to pay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And losers say it's just not worth it.
- 48:09 – 57:01
Deception detection and “Lie Spotting” (Jussie Smollett discussion)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. Uh, like, this week, I, I had on Pam Myers, who, um, wrote Lie Spotting. Uh, I spent a lot of my career-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wait is, is that a book on liars?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Lie Spotting?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. And I've spent a lot of my career on deception detection, because I've spent a lot of time in the litigation arena-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... um, on interrogation techniques and-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's how you met Oprah, right?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, yeah. I, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
That was when she was doing that, uh, the, the beef industry was suing her?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, the mad cow case in Amarillo.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. She got sued for a couple billion dollars. And, um...... I represented her in that case, and that's, that's how we met. (clears throat) And so I mean, I had Pam on, and we both worked a lot in deception detection and interrogation techniques and stuff. And so just ... And it came right at a time when, you know, Jussie Smollett is in the news about-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... is he telling the truth, is he not telling the truth? And then here we have this conversation about-
- JRJoe Rogan
What did you think immediately when you heard that story?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Uh, I was very suspicious when I heard that story.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Jamie and I, we shut the ... Once the cameras were off, we're like, "Are these off? Fuck that guy."
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"That ain't real." The ... Nobody ... It's just ... It was just too much like a movie.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was a bad movie.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, I mean, it's nine below zero and two people are lying in wait just in hopes that he might come by at 2:00 AM.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I mean, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
So strange.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. It, it was suspicious. And, you know, he's entitled to due process, and he's gonna get it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He's gonna get it. Now he's saying he has some, uh, untreated drug problem, so he's trying to carve out some path-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to explain his bizarre behavior.
- 57:01 – 1:02:41
Victimhood incentives and why some hoaxes happen
- JRJoe Rogan
Very strange. The, the... And then sometimes people accuse people of something, and someone will say, "Uh, why would, why would someone make something up? Why would someone turn themselves into a victim?" Well, I think there's a lot of clout in being a victim, especially today.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
There's a lot of... You get a lot of attention, a lot of love. I think there's a lot of false accusations and false attacks. And there's a lot of real ones, but man, when the false ones come, boy, it just does a giant disservice to everybody.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Well, there's a fair amount of research as to why people do these hoaxes, and particularly hate crime hoaxes. And one of the primary motivation... Of course, it's sympathy and attention and all that. But one of the interesting reasons that I've read in the research is that they really feel like it's emblematic of how the system treats them overall. This is just a dramatic example of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
They, they feel like, "I'm treated this way anyhow."
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah, so they're just-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. "I'm discriminated against, I suffer bias, I'm put down. This is just a focused example of that. So I'm really not lying, I'm just role-playing how I'm overall treated."
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
So they justify it in their mind of they're just gonna bring all this treatment into one example to bring it into focus. And so while it's a phony deal, it really is truthful representation of what their life is really like. They justify it in that way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, how weird.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, that's... Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's some deep psychological shit right there.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah, yeah. That's, uh, that's stretching.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ooh.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's a weird one when you're like... When you write it out like that, put it in your mind that way.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Um, it's, it's strange too, because it gives people this, um, this... It's this just giant public show to watch now.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. And I hate that. I mean, what a talented young man. I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is he?
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
He's... I've... The times that I've seen... I don't watch that show a lot, but the times I've seen him on there singing and assuming it is his voice and he's singing-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... uh, extremely talented young man.
- JRJoe Rogan
I find a lot of talented people are fucking crazy.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Well, you know, somebody said that, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Somebody said that the really talented singers and actors were the weird kids from high school that were in drama and all of that. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, for sure.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Didn't have real friends.
- 1:02:41 – 1:14:20
Champion psychology in sports and combat: pressure, confidence, and doubt
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, absolutely. And what you're talking about, you, you're interviewing all these athletes, you know, um, I think people tend to write off athletic pursuits as being entirely physical. And they are not.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, I think this is a- an easy way for people to look at it that don't en- engage or that have never really thought about playing anything at a very high level, that it, it requires some intense thinking. It might not require mathematics or a, a large vocabulary, but understanding what's required, understanding when and how to execute, understanding how to keep your shit together under pressure. Those are all intensely intellectual aspects of any really high end athletic pursuit.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And there's a different breed of cat that wants the ball at the buzzer.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
There's, and it, and it's not just to showboat. There's a different breed of cat that wants that ball-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... at that point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And, and it's not always who you think, but it takes a special kind of person that wants that pressure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
That knows they can handle it better than anybody else.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, and it's a lot of times, it's people that are entirely confident that they've done the work.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, there's a haunting thing that happens with athletes-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
... where you're not sure if you did enough. And in fighters, it's a very dangerous inclination because it leads you to overtrain. And you have to be very careful about that because with a fighter, you only can learn so much during your training camp. Like say, once you get into training camp, you got eight weeks depending on who you are. Some guys like to do a little longer, but the average is maybe eight. 12 weeks is a long camp. You already have to know how to fight by the time you get to camp, so what you're really doing is just kind of working on specific movements where you're dealing with one kind of fighter and then getting your body in shape. Getting your body conditioned, getting your mind ready, preparing everything, cutting your body weight down, getting, so you can weigh in and, and have a, a, a good amount of, um, just, uh, just, you gotta have enough vitality. You can't drain yourself. So there's this complicated dance that goes on. And that haunting thing of did I do enough can cause fighters to screw themselves over by overtraining.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you have to have enough confidence to know that you've done enough as well as enough... You have to know you've done enough, but know you haven't done too much. There's this really strange dance. You know, and this, uh, this e- this weekend is a giant UFC. Big UFC. Two big title fights between four of the very best fighters in the world. And, um, I mean, that is one of the most interesting aspects of the fight game to me is f- one, watching these guys stare each other down at the weigh-in where they get a look at each other and they know 24 hours from now they're going to war, and just see like is there a, just a smell of doubt.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there anything? Is there anything in there? You know, and just knowing that this is probably one of the most difficult things in all of athletics and that these guys are going to, uh, they're, they're gonna ply their trade in w- one of the most complicated things. It's a battle of physical, mental, of, of mindset, of will, of conditioning and discipline. And then it's also, there's a lot of random shit that happens.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Do you think a fight can change at a weigh-in when people are looking at each other?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yes.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
You think it, it can-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it can change.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
It can shift right then?
- JRJoe Rogan
It can't change for everybody. Like, you could look at Jon Jones sideways, upside down. You could stick your... It ain't, it ain't gonna affect shit. There's some guys that are just locked down and bulletproof. Jon Jones is bulletproof. There's certain guys that are just bulletproof. They just look at you and like they know what to do. There's a reason why he's undefeated, you know? He's just, he knows how to do it. But then there's other guys that like, that maybe they're like fucking, maybe it's 80/20 maybe, and then the, the stare down. You look at the guy and you look at him like, "God dammit, I'm fighting Yoel Romero. How the fuck did this happen?" And then (sighs) you see him drop down to 75, maybe 73% confidence, 72, 70, shit. Then you look at his traps. He's got a neck that starts at the top of his head and you're like, "Ah, fuck." You know? There's certain guys, they're just, they're intimidating at weigh-ins too.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- 1:14:20 – 1:20:49
Heroes, cowards, and self-esteem as self-attribution
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah. And I'm one of the... I have this theory, (clears throat) y- you know, and you s- we see it in sports, and I, I saw it when I talked to Emmitt. He's been a friend of mine for a long time. And I was talking to him about his psychology as he goes into a football game, and he says he plays a movie in his mind of the entire game (clears throat) before he plays it. 'Cause in, you know, in a football game, you're gonna have 11 or 12 possessions during the game. And you, just throughout the football game, you're gonna get that ball 11 or 12 times. And he would say, "And I'm gonna carry that ball three or four times per possession." And he knows which plays he's gonna run. He would run them through his head. He would see it. He would know who was gonna be there to tackle him. He would s- you know, he'd r- run everything through his head. And (clears throat) he's one of those guys that wants the ball when the clock's running out.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
But I, I have this theory that situations do not make heroes. Situations expose heroes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
And I saw that in Katrina, uh, the hurricane (clears throat) that so devastated that, that one neighborhood. What ward was it? Was it the Ninth Ward? I forget which ward it was that got so wiped out, uh, when Katrina hit New Orleans. And there was a guy down there that had been really quiet. Nobody had ever heard anything out of him. He was an older guy, lived in a house, stayed to himself. And that night, when the water was at rooftop level, I mean, he swam rooftop to rooftop and saved six, seven, eight people, got him out of there. And he didn't make it out, but he got seven or eight people out of there. And you go back and you check his history, and he was a military hero. He just sat quietly in his home. And when the situation cr- came about, it revealed who he was. And I think that's what happens. I think if, if you've got a hero, they just sit there, sit there, sit there until a situation reveals who they are. I don't think it makes them a hero. I think it reveals that they're heroes. And I, I, I think that's what happens to people. They, they are who they are until they get... and then the opportunity comes along, and they're gonna show you who that is. They may show you they're a coward, or they may show you that they've got the focus to hang, or they may show you that they're a hero, but life circumstances are gonna come along, and they're gonna show you who somebody is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I, I completely agree.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think what's also interesting is when someone does get revealed to be a coward, they can become a hero.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's very hard.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's very hard to get past the re-
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
... the memory of you being a coward.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
Well, and I'll tell you why I think that's true, if you wanna know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Please.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
I mean, maybe you don't... I'm r-
- JRJoe Rogan
Want to know everything.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
... going off on a, going off on a tangent.
- JRJoe Rogan
Come on.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
(clears throat) No, I think, I think we learn about ourselves. And, you know, everybody talks about self-esteem and self-worth, but nobody ever talks about what it really is or how we get it. And I, I think, I think about it in terms of self-attribution, because you know how you form opinions of other people? Like, if you look at this guy, and you, you maybe you work with this guy, and so you watch him across a couple of years. And maybe this guy shows up to work every day, and he's there 15 minutes early. And he unlocks the place, gets everything ready, puts the coffee on, has his desk ready. He's all buttoned up. And man, when the bell rings, he's ready to go. And y- you just learn that this guy's buttoned up, ready to go, dependable, never misses. He's always there. So you attribute certain traits and characteristics to him based on your observations of him and your experience of him. Based on that, you assign certain traits and characteristics to him. But I say that's exactly the same way we form our own self-image and our own level of self-worth. We watch ourselves go through life, and we watch how we handle certain circumstances and situations. And that's why I say overindulgence is one of the most insidious forms of child abuse m- known to parenting. Uh, it's not the worst, it's just insidious, because if you overindulge your children and do everything for them, you never let them observe themselves master their environment. You never let them w- step back and say, "Wow, I did that."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PMDr. Phil McGraw
"I built this. I overcame that. I handled this. I did that." And so we... That's the same way we make our own s- self-image and level of self-worth. We watch ourselves overcome the third grade. We watch ourselves stand up to a bully. We watch ourself-... Handle a test with i- information that intimidated us, or we watch ourselves make it onto the little league baseball team and actually get a hit when we needed to, or we watch ourselves get onto the debate team and actually argue something successfully. Whether it's academic or athletic or musical, we watch ourselves do it. And so we go back and say, "Hey, I did that. I attribute to myself the ability. I can hang, I can do this, I can rise to the occasion." Or we watch ourselves fold like a pup tent in a windstorm and say, you know, "I, I, I can't hang. I don't have it." And we make those attributions to ourselves, and so we shrink from the challenge for the rest of our lives until, like you said, it's hard to overcome that and something pushes you up until you finally observe yourself overcome something. And I think that's how we form our level of self-esteem and our identity about who we are, and I don't think most people f- think about that, g- look back and say, "Okay, how did I, how did I get to be Joe Rogan as I sit in that chair?" You have a self-image, you have a level of confidence, and, uh, ego strength, um, a level of self-worth. That's attributable to things you've watched yourself do or not do, achieve, not achieve, overcome or whatever throughout your life. And y- and I think to know yourself, you have to know what those things are.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think you're 100% right.
Episode duration: 1:36:29
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Transcript of episode 65epASHLblo
