Joe Rogan Experience #1266 - Ben Anderson

1. 0:00 – 1:21

   Afghanistan ambush story: “taking a knee” and filming under fire

   1. BABen Anderson0:00

      ... chain on.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      It's been a while. Working? Live? We're live. Do you wanna talk about that? Or no?

   3. BABen Anderson0:14

      I-

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      The chain thing, did you have something to say?

   5. BABen Anderson0:15

      Ev- ev- everyone sent me the clip and, uh-

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Oh.

   7. BABen Anderson0:17

      ... and I think you said something about taking a knee i- in the middle of a gunfight, and he said, "Yeah, that was Ben. He's a fucking savage."

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      What did you do?

   9. BABen Anderson0:24

      And, uh-

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       What happened? Refresh my memory.

   11. BABen Anderson0:27

       We're in Afghanistan.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       Right.

   13. BABen Anderson0:28

       And the guys I'm with, the Afghan soldiers I'm with, get ambushed by the Taliban. And I just went down on one knee and carried on talking.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       Ugh.

   15. BABen Anderson0:35

       Um, and Shane said, "Yeah, he's a fucking savage."

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       (laughs)

   17. BABen Anderson0:38

       And that... Apparently, that's a compliment. (laughs) I wasn't sure.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       War journalists are very fascinating people to me because, uh, oftentimes, you guys move towards the gunfire with the camera to get the shot. And, y- you know, I've talked to folks before who have worked as a, a war journalist and they say you almost don't think you're... Y- y- you, you, you're f- so concentrated on getting the shot, you don't think about the fact that you might get shot.

   19. BABen Anderson1:07

       Oh, it's, it's a safety mechanism, yeah. You think you're protected by looking at it on a screen rather than realizing it's, it's actually happening in real life right now.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       That's-

   21. BABen Anderson1:14

       I mean, it's stupid. (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       That is so... It's so strange.

   23. BABen Anderson1:17

       There was a-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Try, try to keep this, uh, like a, like a fist from your face. Perfect. There we go.

2. 1:21 – 3:54

   Operation Moshtarak in Marja: surrounded Marines, hours-long firefight

   1. BABen Anderson1:21

      I was with, um, the US Marines for Operation Moshtarak, like the biggest operation of the Afghan war. Um, and there was a town called Marja that was controlled by the Taliban. And I met up with this one group of Marines. I, I used to love going out with the Marines 'cause they'd... If you were willing to run the same risks as them, they'd let you film everything. Um, and their mission was to get dropped by helicopter in the middle of this town at 3:00 AM on day one, and then just fight their way out from the middle of the town. And as soon as the sun came up, all of the speakers on the mosques were saying, "The infidels are here, the infidels are here. Get your weapons, get your weapons." And General McChrystal had introduced this rule of courageous restraint saying you're not allowed to shoot unless you're shot at, or unless you see someone preparing a hostile act. And the Taliban had figured out how to use this. So, I'm sitting in this field with about 28 Marines watching the Taliban drop off guys in buildings all around us with their weapons wrapped in blankets, knowing the Marines can't shoot them. So they're setting up the perfect ambush. Um, and as soon as we started walking across the field, it started and it's like nothing I've ever heard or experienced before. And we ran and dived into a ditch. The guys either side of me got, got hit, one of them badly. A guy was killed on the other side of the field almost straight away. Um, and I was there alone filming it myself. And because I was watching the whole thing through this tiny little screen on my camera, it felt like I wasn't, you know, in, in as much danger as, as they were. And I, I was so f- afraid... And the adrenaline runs out after a while and you just become numb, and you... I mean, then I'd resigned myself. I thought we were all gonna get killed. We were completely surrounded and outnumbered, and there were RPGs and snipers. Um, and I watched it back, and the footage is pretty good.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:56

      (laughs)

   3. BABen Anderson2:56

      You know, I'm, like, changing shots, I'm zooming in, I'm focusing.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:58

      God.

   5. BABen Anderson2:59

      And I think focusing on that helped me, helped me, you know-

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:02

      How did you get out of it?

   7. BABen Anderson3:04

      I mean, to this day, I'm not even sure. I think the Marines just started identifying Taliban targets and picking them off. And then the Taliban ran out of ammunition and the actual ambush lasted like six, seven hours of non-stop fighting.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:17

      (exhales)

   9. BABen Anderson3:17

      Yeah. And then we, we ran into a, an old building which is, which became their base for six months, just an a- you know, an abandoned building. And they, they shelled that all night and the fighting carried on the whole next day, but... But that first day in the ditch, I remember saying to myself, "You're an idiot. You never say no to anything. You always just, you know, join up and sign up for these insane trips. And if you survive today, and you're probably not gonna survive, but if you do survive today, don't ever go out with these idiots ever again." Um, and the next day they said, "Oh, we're gonna launch this operation. Take this mask." And, and I, you know, went out with them all over again. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       (laughs) You just felt like a good night's sleep.

   11. BABen Anderson3:52

       Yeah. (laughs) Well, it wasn't even a good night's sleep, but yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:54

       Couple hours.

3. 3:54 – 4:29

   Risk calibration and numbness: how repeated exposure changes your odds

   1. BABen Anderson3:54

      But yeah, once you survive a few you... I mean, I remember when I started doing this, y- you had an idea of what, what good odds and bad w- odds were, and that, you know, y- y- you're willing to accept lesser and lesser odds as time goes on because nothing happens and it's, it's easy to get, to get careless and stupid.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:11

      That's a real thing with violence, right? Until you've actually experienced it firsthand personally being enacted on yourself, it almost doesn't seem real.

   3. BABen Anderson4:20

      Even when bullets are zipping by your head, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:24

      (exhales) Is that a, just weird compartmentalization thing that people are capable of? Is that what it is?

4. 4:29 – 6:34

   Guilt, purpose, and MDMA therapy: why he keeps going back

   1. BABen Anderson4:29

      I think it is. I mean, I, I think with me it's slightly different. Um, I mean, I, I took part in this MDMA therapy for PTSD recently and one of the, one of the revelations that came out as a result of that was... I, I got into this 20 years ago thinking I could help people in Syria, Palestine, Congo, wherever by raising awareness about, about what's happening. After a while, you lose faith in that idea so then you start feeling a bit guilty and thinking, "Am I just here for my own benefit? Am I just here to profit in some way and not actually helping whatsoever?" Um, so I think that guilt made me think, "You're not important enough to have something as dramatic as getting shot or blown up happen to you."

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:08

      Truth.

   3. BABen Anderson5:09

      I know that sounds so stupid and I'd never thought that until, you know, it came out as part of this therapy, but I, I think I really had started thinking that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:17

      So the, the MDMA therapy made you sort of look at your rational perspective, like what, what... How are you rationalizing your, your time in these very, very dangerous places?

   5. BABen Anderson5:30

      In, in ways that I hadn't even thought about before.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:32

      So it was, it was going on in your subconscious. It was sort of-

   7. BABen Anderson5:35

      Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:35

      You're sort of making these agreements and arrangements in order to be able to still do that?

   9. BABen Anderson5:40

      Yeah. And if, if it continued, then it, it was gonna end badly.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       Wants a coffee.

   11. BABen Anderson5:44

       Thank you. Like, you know, there was, there was only one way it was gonna end and I, and, and I hadn't, I hadn't seen that coming at all. I hadn't, I hadn't connected the dots like that at all.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:53

       How did you, uh, wind up stopping? Cheers.

   13. BABen Anderson5:56

       Cheers. I mean, this is the big thi- I, I haven't stopped and I don't think-

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:00

       Right.

   15. BABen Anderson6:00

       ... I'm gonna stop. I, I, I did the MDMA therapy thinking this would give me an excuse to stop.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:04

       Right.

   17. BABen Anderson6:05

       And I thought that's what I wanted.Three-quarters of the way through the first session I was planning the next-

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:09

       Jesus.

   19. BABen Anderson6:10

       ... program. And I mean, people say you're an adrenaline junkie. That's not true at all. It's not a thrill to be there. It's horrible to be there, it's an endurance test every single time. But I still think it's, it's important.

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:21

       Do you think it's important because the information that you can get to people, there's no other way they can get it?

   21. BABen Anderson6:26

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:27

       Mm-hmm.

   23. BABen Anderson6:27

       I mean, I wonder what impact that has these days, um, but you hope that it has-

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:31

       It has an impact. Oh, everything has an impact. I'm sure it has an impact.

5. 6:34 – 11:25

   Does war coverage matter anymore? Syria, intervention fatigue, and Rwanda parallels

   1. BABen Anderson6:34

      But... I mean, the example I always use, and this, you know, some of my colleagues have been broken by this, is, is, you know, the Syrian war has been very well covered. Every crime has been very well documented, you know, often with video footage of exactly-

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:46

      Right.

   3. BABen Anderson6:46

      ... the crime being carried out. Has it made any difference whatsoever? I'm not sure.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:51

      The Syrian one is one where you hear, you hear rational people say that, like, Assad is not our enemy, and that... Well, how do you, what do you feel about that?

   5. BABen Anderson7:03

      I mean, I think we're dealing with the legacy of the Iraq and the Afghanistan wars, in that even if you want to help, what's the point? You can't, you're only gonna make it worse. I think a lot of people feel that way, and I think that leads some people to think Assad is not a good guy, he probably does have the blood of hundreds of thousands on his hands, but we should deal with him anyway because that's better than Iraq or Afghanistan.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:24

      Is it because when we do get rid of a, a leader, like Libya with Gaddafi or Iraq with Hussein, that what happens is you get this power vacuum and then it becomes far worse?

   7. BABen Anderson7:37

      We've tried every model.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:38

      Yeah.

   9. BABen Anderson7:38

      We've tried invading Afghanistan, taking over, re- trying to rebuild the entire culture and armed forces and government ourselves. That has failed miserably. Tried Iraq, Libya, tried leading from the back, um, you know, limited intervention, h-hoping that the guys on the ground could do the fighting for us. And then Syria, we've tried almost no intervention whatsoever, um, and all three have failed. So I think now you've got people... I mean, the, the, the thing I always think, most people would say we should have intervened in Rwanda. I think almost everyone would say... I mean, Bill Clinton would say that's his biggest regret, I think-

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:10

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BABen Anderson8:11

       ... in his presidency. Most people would say we should have intervened in Rwanda. I think if Rwanda happened tomorrow, you'd have a lot of people here saying, "It's not worth it. We won't help. We can't make the situation better. So why even try?"

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:22

       (sighs) Well, it's so hard when you look at the rest of the world and you see these horrific conditions and you see warlords in power and you see atrocities being committed and we're sitting over here and, you know, in the valley, watching it on internet and drinking Starbucks. You know?

   13. BABen Anderson8:41

       Or it's just Trump gossip over there.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:43

       Yeah.

   15. BABen Anderson8:43

       I mean-

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:44

       Well, more so.

   17. BABen Anderson8:45

       Yeah. American c- American foreign coverage was never, was never great.

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:48

       No.

   19. BABen Anderson8:49

       Now it's, it's almost gone. I mean, Yemen, we'll see. I mean, because of the Khashoggi murder, maybe, maybe something can happen with Yemen. Because... And, and there is a lot we can do there because we are, you know, directly supporting one side.

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:00

       It almost seems like what you were talking about, but in a far lesser extent, the, the feeling that you get when you're in these war zones that it's almost like it's not real, that you're, you're covering it through this, this lens so you're immune fr- from it. It almost feels like we view the, the massive conflicts of the world that way. That, like, we're watching it on television, we're seeing it on our phones or our laptops. It's not... It's real, I know it's real. It is a, it's a real issue.

   21. BABen Anderson9:28

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan9:28

       But it's not real, like, in terms of it's not knocking on my door.

   23. BABen Anderson9:31

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:31

       You know, it's almost like we feel a- about it that way.

   25. BABen Anderson9:33

       Yeah. And the numbers as well. I mean, you know, in Syria it could be 800,000 dead.

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:37

       (sighs) Oh.

   27. BABen Anderson9:38

       Um, do people really think what, what that means? What does 800,000 dead actually mean?

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:43

       Right. Do they... When... I think with certain numbers, you, you just, they just become, uh, it just becomes digits-

   29. BABen Anderson9:50

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:50

       ... and it just doesn't make sense.
6. 11:25 – 15:15

   Information overload and the collapse of shared reality (deepfakes, context, tribalism)

   1. BABen Anderson11:25

      That-

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:25

      ... information overload state?

   3. BABen Anderson11:28

      I mean, you, you, you... If you go back to, you know, the early days of the internet, Facebook, it was gonna be the free flow of information, you know, no borders. It's... I mean, I don't think we, you can doubt it's, it's made us dumber now. The, the infor- there's, there's so much... It's not just how much there is, it's also how much bad stuff-

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:47

      Yeah.

   5. BABen Anderson11:47

      ... gets traction and how much really important stuff doesn't get traction. I mean, one of the great things about, about the Trump era is some of the best writing (laughs) , you know, I think for, for years.

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:57

      Yeah.

   7. BABen Anderson11:57

      But, but how many people are reading it?

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:59

      Yeah, I would like to know how many people read Matt Taibbi's articles.

   9. BABen Anderson12:02

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:03

       From the beginning to the end.

   11. BABen Anderson12:04

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:04

       Yeah. I, I, I really would like to see the num- When you think about the amount of time that guy puts into an article.Yeah, this is a v- it's a such a strange time because it doesn't, it doesn't seem like any other time. It doesn't seem like any other time in terms of our consumption of information or how much information we're consuming. And it- it's like the- the- the sheer volume of it is, uh, it's almost, it's almost, uh, insurmountable. Like the sheer volume of data that comes in every day, it doesn't go away. It's just new data comes in. It just keeps coming in and piling up.

   13. BABen Anderson12:40

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:40

       You know, it's like porn, right? Like you never could watch all the porns.

   15. BABen Anderson12:44

       Yeah. (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:45

       It's, it's not possible. Like but they keep making 'em.

   17. BABen Anderson12:48

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:48

       You know what I mean? And like, "Ah." You open up Pornhub and you go, "What the f- How many of them, how many of them are there?"

   19. BABen Anderson12:55

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:55

       And that's, you know, that is really data. I mean, but th- then all these crazy internet videos and stories and there's just c- Every day, it's something new, it's constant.

   21. BABen Anderson13:06

       But, but you'd have thought that would, that would have led to a situation where some things are indisputable.

   22. JRJoe Rogan13:11

       Right.

   23. BABen Anderson13:11

       Because, because there is video evidence but, but it's the opposite is the case. Nothing is verifiable now no matter how much evidence exists. I mean-

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:19

       My concern is that that's leading into this trend of deepfakes and th- this new audio editing ability that they have t- they can take your voice and your, your mouth and s- put some stuff in there that you never said.

   25. BABen Anderson13:33

       Yep.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:33

       And, you know, it could be news. I mean, you could do that. It could be Assad, it could be O- Obama, it could be anyone. It's so strange.

   27. BABen Anderson13:41

       And it might get debunked in the New York Times the next day.

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:43

       No one cares.

   29. BABen Anderson13:44

       How many people are reading that?

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:45

       Very few.
7. 15:15 – 17:41

   Syria “parallel universes”: White Helmets skepticism and journalist cynicism

   1. BABen Anderson15:15

      And there are parallel universes right now that exist on things that you would've thought everyone can accept as a basic fact.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      Like what?

   3. BABen Anderson15:22

      You know. Um, uh, I mean, Syria.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:26

      Yeah.

   5. BABen Anderson15:26

      You know, the White Helmets. There, there are some fairly serious people saying the White Helmets are, you know, some kind of media front for Al-Qaeda or Al-Nusra.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      Would you explain the White Helmets for people?

   7. BABen Anderson15:37

      So when there's a, when there's a bombing and a building collapses, they go in and, and drag people out and get them medical attention as, as quick as possible.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:44

      And people think that they're somehow or another involved in it, that they're a front?

   9. BABen Anderson15:49

      Yeah, to, to... And, and the, the footage is faked in order to drum up sympathy for the rebel-held areas.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       (sighs)

   11. BABen Anderson15:56

       I mean, that's... I've, I've heard, you know, serious people say that. Um-

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       Serious people?

   13. BABen Anderson16:00

       Yeah, yeah. Not, not, not loons on Facebook. I've heard, you know-

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       Like journalists or?

   15. BABen Anderson16:03

       Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, I mean, Seymour Hersh, I think has, has walked it back a little bit since, but he said that in the early days.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:09

       Why do you think he believed it?

   17. BABen Anderson16:11

       I read really interesting article about him just a few days ago. Where was it? Um, I forget what, what... It was, it was, you know, the ... not exposé, but a really good look at, look at, look at him. And I think he's just spent his career believing, rightly, that the government lies about all kinds of things. And that's got him into a point where he thinks, "Well, they always lie no matter what."

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:31

       Mm.

   19. BABen Anderson16:31

       Um, so, and I, I... It's happened to a lot of journalists, uh, Robert Fisk, uh, Seymour Hersh, um, Martha Gellhorn, one of my favorite war correspondents of all time. I reread some of her stuff recently and, and the first batch of war reporting she did, I think is the, the best war reporting I've ever read. Spanish Civil War, Vietnam, um, and then she spent 25 years writing novels and then later on wrote about, I believe it was the Yom Kippur War and was denying that massacres had happened and saying, you know, "Arabs lie, they always lie. There was no massacre." And we now know there was a massacre or there were massacres, um, in the aftermath of these, of these wars. Um, so I don't know what happens. I mean, maybe if you just do this for too long, you just become so cynical-

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       (sighs) Mm.

   21. BABen Anderson17:13

       ... um, that, that you're open to these things. But it's... Yeah, I'm amazed that Seymour Hersh is, is open to that idea.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:20

       (sighs) When the, the very people that are calling it, the very people that have boots on the ground and that are in these war zones are... and calling these things, th- when they become cynical and they become jaded, that's when it gets really, really sketchy. And, and we rely so heavily on people like you. Like there's... I'm not going over there.

   23. BABen Anderson17:41

       Yeah.

8. 17:41 – 32:51

   Venezuela confusion and why loud studio opinions beat on-the-ground reporting

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:41

      You know, Jamie's not going over there. Look at him. (laughs) The... You know what I'm saying? I mean, and, and you wouldn't be able to really get... Like I know people that have gone to Venezuela and they come back and they go, "I don't know what the fuck is going on over there. I don't know who to believe. I don't understand it."

   2. BABen Anderson17:54

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:54

      Venezuela is a very strange one and I get messages all the time and, you know, I've had Abby Martin who goes over there and she has one take on it, and I have other people that I talk to that have a different take on it, and I do not know. I don't know who to believe. And I think you'd have to go over there and do... You'd, you'd have to spend a lot of time to try to figure this out, and it would have to be the entire focus of your life to really try to parse it out.

   4. BABen Anderson18:16

      I think that's true of a lot of conflicts. I mean, there-

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:18

      Yeah.

   6. BABen Anderson18:18

      ... you know, one of the, one of the, one of the drawbacks of doing what I do is I'm covering seven or eight things at, at once, so-

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:23

      Yeah.

   8. BABen Anderson18:23

      ... so I feel like I'm not expert enough in even Afghanistan, where I've covered, you know, I've covered that more than any other. Um, but, but Venezuela's an interesting one 'cause it's, there's, there's such a left-right divide on that, and if you support the opposition, then you find yourself alongside John Bolton and Donald Trump-

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:37

      Yeah.

   10. BABen Anderson18:37

       ... um, which means that a lot of people are gonna automatically attack you.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:40

       Right.

   12. BABen Anderson18:40

       Um-

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:41

       Right. Automatically.

   14. BABen Anderson18:42

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:42

       Even if it's correct.

   16. BABen Anderson18:44

       And, and I think it's, you know, y- we can say without a doubt that Maduro has destroyed the economy there, Maduro has, uh, imprisoned, beaten, killed journalists. Um, there is a movement there that do want genuine elections, um, but some people will say, "Well, just because George Bush in another area or John Bolton in this area support the opposition, therefore the opposition must be illegitimate and the information coming out must be, must be false."

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:10

       (sighs)

   18. BABen Anderson19:12

       And I wish people did rely on, on people who actually went there, but it-

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:14

       Yeah.

   20. BABen Anderson19:14

       ... doesn't feel like that. (laughs) It feels like they rely on the, you know, the guy behind the glass desk on the, on the news-

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:19

       They rely on that.

   22. BABen Anderson19:20

       ... with the, with the loud opinion-

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:20

       Always.

   24. BABen Anderson19:20

       ... rather than the people who are actually there.

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:22

       Well, we still have this idea in our head that the, the person who's reading the news is the authority, you know, that Don Lemon has the inside scoop, or whoever it is, you know?

   26. BABen Anderson19:32

       And I think it used to be that those guys would spend 20 or 30 years traveling, and then they'd get the cushy job behind the glass desk in the studio.

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:39

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BABen Anderson19:39

       Now it seems like (laughs) you can go straight to the cushy job behind the glass desk, you know?

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:43

       Well, d- we just need someone who's relatable, who can read a teleprompter, you know, who fits the profile that they're looking for-

   30. BABen Anderson19:51

       Yeah.
9. 32:51 – 39:50

   Social media addiction and distraction: why attention spans (and empathy) shrink

   1. BABen Anderson32:51

      Um, I mean, you know, my attention span, I think, has been shortened.

   2. JRJoe Rogan32:54

      Yeah.

   3. BABen Anderson32:54

      I'll sit down to watch a movie at home, and within 10 minutes, I'm reaching for my phone.

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:58

      Yes (laughs) .

   5. BABen Anderson32:58

      And thinking, you know, "I'm not a heart surgeon. There's no emergency that nee-" you know?

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:01

      (laughs) Right, right.

   7. BABen Anderson33:02

      And I might just be ch- checking Twitter again. Or Instagram.

   8. JRJoe Rogan33:05

      Again, yeah.

   9. BABen Anderson33:05

      You know? Um, so-

   10. JRJoe Rogan33:06

       It's a perfect storm-

   11. BABen Anderson33:08

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       ... of distractions.

   13. BABen Anderson33:09

       And, and we now know, it is, it is addictive, so-

   14. JRJoe Rogan33:12

       Yeah.

   15. BABen Anderson33:12

       ... how you turn that around, I, I mean, it feels like there's a little bit of a movement of people to, you know, switch that stuff off and just read a book or go for a walk or, but-

   16. JRJoe Rogan33:21

       Yeah, you gotta ha- have real discipline, though. I mean, you're fighting against a fucking heroin addiction, man.

   17. BABen Anderson33:27

       Yeah, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       It's crazy.

   19. BABen Anderson33:28

       And everyone else is addicted too.

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:29

       Oh, yeah.

   21. BABen Anderson33:30

       So you're not part of the conversation if you're not following it all.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:32

       Man, I, I walked into a restaurant the other night and everyone was looking at their phone. No one was looking at each other. I'm like, "I'm in a movie."

   23. BABen Anderson33:39

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:39

       Like, "This is a movie."

   25. BABen Anderson33:40

       Some post-apop- apocalypse.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:41

       Yeah.

   27. BABen Anderson33:41

       Some- yeah, yeah, yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:42

       I mean, if, if instead of looking at their phones, if everyone was just looking at the sky, you'd be like, "Oh my God, there's a real problem. These people are sick."

   29. BABen Anderson33:50

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:50

       "There's something wrong."
10. 39:50 – 44:51

    Segregation and “bubbles”: Brooklyn street-by-street divides and London comparisons

    1. BABen Anderson39:50

       And to your point about going up and cleaning up, cleaning up a, you know, an impoverished area, at least then you'd get to meet-

    2. JRJoe Rogan39:55

       Yeah.

    3. BABen Anderson39:56

       ... other people.

    4. JRJoe Rogan39:56

       Yes.

    5. BABen Anderson39:57

       People outside of your, your circle and your bubble. I mean-

    6. JRJoe Rogan39:59

       Yeah.

    7. BABen Anderson40:00

       ... the amount of times here when you talk to people about Muslims, LGBT, whatever it is, and you just think, "Oh, it's 'cause you've never met anyone." (laughs)

    8. JRJoe Rogan40:06

       Right.

    9. BABen Anderson40:06

       You, you've actually never met anyone-

    10. JRJoe Rogan40:08

        Yeah.

    11. BABen Anderson40:08

        ... that is X, Y, or Z, which is... I, I'm, I moved to Brooklyn five years, six years ago and I moved to Clinton Hill, Fort Greene, and I've got a few friends there who've been there forever and I said, "Look, this probably sounds like a really stupid thing to say, but it feels kinda segregated here." And they were like, "Duh, yeah, of course, it does." And I couldn't believe it. You know, I, I'd grown up on the Spike Lee movies and-

    12. JRJoe Rogan40:29

        Right.

    13. BABen Anderson40:29

        ... which, I mean, I guess they do show a kind of segregation, but I thought, you know, this was the place where everyone lived together on the same block-

    14. JRJoe Rogan40:35

        Right.

    15. BABen Anderson40:35

        ... and went to each other's bodegas and restaurants and-

    16. JRJoe Rogan40:37

        Right.

    17. BABen Anderson40:38

        I lived on the dividing line between the bit that was getting gentrified and, and, and the projects. You go two blocks that way, pretty much all Black. You go three blocks that way, pretty much all white with yoga studios and bougie coffee shops and pet spas and, and the two communities just did not mix. It wasn't necessarily that they hated each other or-

    18. JRJoe Rogan40:55

        Right.

    19. BABen Anderson40:56

        ... they, they just did not mix. Different language, different everything.

    20. JRJoe Rogan40:59

        Right, there's this utopian perception that there is a place where everybody's cool.

    21. BABen Anderson41:03

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan41:04

        Yeah.

    23. BABen Anderson41:04

        And I thought it might be New York, it might be Brooklyn.

    24. JRJoe Rogan41:06

        Yeah. Well, it's probably the only place that's close, right? Like w- well at least it has the reputation for it.

    25. BABen Anderson41:13

        Yeah, but-

    26. JRJoe Rogan41:13

        Because at least in Brooklyn people walk around.

    27. BABen Anderson41:16

        I mean, yeah, but, but talking about amazing pieces of journalism over the last few years, there's Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote, wrote a piece about, uh, New York's school system, public school system, the most segregated school system in America.

    28. JRJoe Rogan41:27

        Really?

    29. BABen Anderson41:27

        In New York.

    30. JRJoe Rogan41:28

        Really?
11. 44:51 – 57:24

    From finance to esports to boxing: status chasing vs meaningful work

    1. JRJoe Rogan44:51

       Well, I was talking to this guy yesterday who is a 26-year-old who's graduating, uh, with a degree in finance and trying to figure out what he wants to do, and he's thinking about moving to New York and getting a job in Wall Street. But he's hesitant 'cause he's a nice guy. He doesn't wanna go dark, you know? And I'm like, "Man, you could- it could- you could go to the dark side." Like, these people are... Look, not all of them, but a- a lot of them are just straight-up materialists.

    2. BABen Anderson45:18

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan45:18

       They're just chasing money. When you're in the money business and you're just chasing money, like, there's... Your reward is things. Your reward is objects and status and clothes and houses and shit.

    4. BABen Anderson45:34

       Yeah. And sometimes you talk to those guys and you say, "So what- what do you do?" "I work in finance." "Yeah, yeah, but what do you actually do?" "I work in finance and I'm very well rewarded, as you can see." "Yeah, but what do you actually do?" "Oh, I- I look for fluctuations in international grain markets." "Congratulations. What an amazing thing to dedicate your life to," you know? And if you just said what they do rather than what the reward was-

    5. JRJoe Rogan45:55

       Right.

    6. BABen Anderson45:55

       ...you'd think this is ridiculous. What a waste of your time.

    7. JRJoe Rogan45:59

       It is, but the- the status of being super wealthy, for a lot of them, is worth it-

    8. BABen Anderson46:06

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:06

       ...because they don't have a passion, right? They don't have a thing they're... They're not trying to write a book, they're not trying to make a painting or whatever the fuck it is that...

    10. BABen Anderson46:14

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:14

        You know, they're just trying to make the money and they're making the money, so everything is great.

    12. BABen Anderson46:19

        Yeah. But then, I-

    13. JRJoe Rogan46:19

        They're doing coke and shots.

    14. BABen Anderson46:20

        I mean, if I, if I pulled up here in a, you know, a purple Lamborghini with a diamond-studded watch...

    15. JRJoe Rogan46:26

        I'd be like, "Look at this motherfucker. He must be robbing people."

    16. BABen Anderson46:28

        (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan46:29

        (laughs)

    18. BABen Anderson46:29

        But not that many people would be- would be that impressed. I think most people would think, "What a douche."

    19. JRJoe Rogan46:33

        "What a tool." Yeah.

    20. BABen Anderson46:34

        (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan46:35

        Yeah. It's cer- it's certain circles, right? It's whatever circle that you're in.

    22. BABen Anderson46:39

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan46:39

        It's certain circles, like in finance circles, it is m- m- about those things more than it's not because those things represent success in your industry.

    24. BABen Anderson46:48

        Your friend should read a piece, may, may, maybe even in a book by Michael Lewis, um, and he talks to a bunch of graduates who, you know, are about to get approached by the big banks-

    25. JRJoe Rogan46:56

        Hmm.

    26. BABen Anderson46:57

        ...and financial institutions. And he says, "Listen, you think you're going to do this for two or three years-

    27. JRJoe Rogan47:01

        Yes.

    28. BABen Anderson47:01

        "...earn a few million dollars, and then do something worthwhile with your life. But what's going to happen is you're going to get seduced and you're going to get the mortgage and you're gonna-"

    29. JRJoe Rogan47:08

        Hmm.

    30. BABen Anderson47:08

        "...and your, suddenly 20 years of your life will have gone by and you'll think, 'What the fuck have I just done with my life?'"
12. 57:24 – 1:07:59

    PTSD and MDMA-assisted therapy: protocol, mechanisms, and outcomes

    1. JRJoe Rogan57:24

       Now, how did the PTS- PTSD treatment get organized? Is this through MAPS? Are you part of that study?

    2. BABen Anderson57:29

       Yeah. We did a, did a short film about, about Rick Doblin and this, this-

    3. JRJoe Rogan57:32

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BABen Anderson57:32

       ... you know, this, this effort to, to get MDMA legal. Um, but I'd been in denial for years and years, then a new producer joined Vice, a guy called Stephen Bailey. And we had the first idea where he was pitching some, some... The first meeting where he was pitching some of his ideas. And he mentioned, you know, this breakthrough therapy using MDMA for PTSD. And I just involuntarily put my hand up and said, "I'll do it."

    5. JRJoe Rogan57:52

       Wow.

    6. BABen Anderson57:52

       Straight away. And it was like, gave me the excuse to actually, you know, get some help and, and, and see if actually helps him.

    7. JRJoe Rogan57:58

       Had you done MDMA recreationally before that?

    8. BABen Anderson58:01

       I mean, yeah, I came of age in (laughs) in London-

    9. JRJoe Rogan58:03

       (laughs)

    10. BABen Anderson58:03

        ... in the '90s. I mean, it was like, it was like having a pint of beer-

    11. JRJoe Rogan58:06

        Right.

    12. BABen Anderson58:06

        ... then.

    13. JRJoe Rogan58:07

        What is the difference between doing it in a therapeutic environment?

    14. BABen Anderson58:10

        Uh, I mean, it's, uh, uh, it's, it's MDMA-assisted therapy.

    15. JRJoe Rogan58:13

        Right.

    16. BABen Anderson58:14

        The emphasis is on the therapy. So you're lying in a bed, you've, you've fasted for 24 hours before. The therapist knows you and knows your issues, um, so knows how to, like, politely, you know, gently nudge you towards the right topic of conversation, but always makes it, makes you actually get to the con- conclusions.

    17. JRJoe Rogan58:31

        Right.

    18. BABen Anderson58:31

        Um, you know, there were times when I would ask him, um, "Why is this happening? Why do I think this?" And he'd put it back on me and make me put two and two together.

    19. JRJoe Rogan58:39

        Mm-hmm.

    20. BABen Anderson58:39

        Um, sometimes you listen to music, sometimes you put an eye mask on and you don't sleep, but you just, you know, have a quiet 20, 30 minutes. But it's a, it's a very intense seven to eight hour therapy session. And the MDMA just enables you to get the benefits. And all of the veterans and first responders who took part in the first round of trials had been therapy resistant. Um, and I think the first round, I think 72% of them, um, got the benefits and were considered PTSD-free after, after the three-month trial.

    21. JRJoe Rogan59:05

        So during the three-month trial, how many experiences do they have?

    22. BABen Anderson59:08

        One a month.

    23. JRJoe Rogan59:09

        One a month, that's it?

    24. BABen Anderson59:09

        So three, three total, yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan59:10

        Wow. So-

    26. BABen Anderson59:11

        Yeah. And the, the, I mean, the best, the best, um, example I can give of how this works, I... The first veteran I met had been through it, he had one session and he'd lost some friends in Iraq and he'd felt guilty about it and always thought, "Maybe if I'd have done something different, I could have saved them." And he imagined being them in, in the first MDMA session and they were saying to him, "Why are you ruining your life? You're alive, you're healthy. We want you to have a fun, productive, full life and enjoy your friends and enjoy your family." And he said that gave him permission.

    27. JRJoe Rogan59:41

        Wow.

    28. BABen Anderson59:41

        And that was what he needed. And he didn't even do the second two sessions.

    29. JRJoe Rogan59:44

        Wow. That's a, what an interesting way of looking at it. Of course.

    30. BABen Anderson59:48

        And that word permission, 'cause there is so much guilt, you know?

Episode duration: 2:18:36