Joe Rogan Experience #1272 - Lindsey Fitzharris

1. 0:00 – 2:06

   Victorian amputation saws, failure in medicine, and surviving surgery before antisepsis

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... (sniffs) four, three-

   2. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:03

      Hold on a second.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Whoops. We got an issue?

   4. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:04

      Uh, uh, maybe. Let me check.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Okay, here we go. Five, four, three, two... Yes! And we're live. Hello, Lindsay.

   6. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:24

      Hey. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      What's happening?

   8. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:25

      Not much. Thanks for having me here.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      Pleasure to meet you.

   10. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:27

       Yeah. Yeah. Good to meet you. I'm, I'm the girl who tags you in all the disgusting-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       (laughs)

   12. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:30

       ... medical history photos. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Well-

   14. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:32

       And I'm really looking forward to grossing out your audience today.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       I, I'm looking forward you, to you doing that as well. You have, uh, fascinated me-

   16. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:39

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       ... with your, uh, Twitter page. And you, like, uh, first of all, how... You are a doctor, right?

   18. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:46

       Well, I'm a PhD. I can't save anybody's life.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Okay.

   20. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:49

       I could perform, you know, Victorian surgery amputation or something, but-

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       I think anybody can, right?

   22. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:53

       Yeah. Yeah. Probably.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Is that a real one, that saw?

   24. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:55

       No. This is, this is a prop.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       Oh.

   26. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:57

       Um, so this is-

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       (laughs)

   28. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:59

       This was a, was a real fun thing to get through, uh, customs, uh, when I was coming in from Britain. It's, uh, a Victorian amputation saw. It's called the clockwork saw and, um, for people who are just listening, it's, it's a circular saw, and there would have been a crank that you wound it with, and then you'd release it, and it would spin sort of automatically.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Oh, God.

   30. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:18

       Yeah. And the idea was that it would make it faster, but the reason why I love this saw so much is that it was a massive failure. (laughs) And, um, I don't think we talk about failure enough in science and medicine. You know, all the things that work, there's a lot of things that don't work. And so this guy who invented this saw, when he tried it out, it was spinning so fast that he took off his assistant's fingers.
2. 2:06 – 3:31

   Joseph Lister, germ theory, and the surprising origin story of Listerine

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris2:06

      So my book, uh, The Butchering Art, really focuses on this one guy named Joseph Lister who applies germ theory and develops antisepsis, so germ-fighting techniques.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      Right.

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris2:16

      And most people don't know who he is, but they know the product Listerine.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris2:20

      So Listerine was named after him, but-

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      Oh.

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris2:23

      ... uh, I, I always, uh, tell people that, so basically, uh, Lister was a British surgeon, and he came to America in 1876 to convince the medical community of germs. And there was a guy in the audience, and he decided to create this product Listerine, but it wasn't even a mouthwash in the 19th century. It was used to treat gonorrhea. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:40

      Whoa.

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris2:42

      So, but also, I don't endorse that. (laughs) Don't-

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:44

       (laughs)

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris2:44

       Don't throw a little g- listerine on it.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:46

       Yeah. Go to a doctor, man.

   13. LFLindsey Fitzharris2:47

       Yeah. I can just see all the comments already on the YouTube, you know, "She told me to throw listerine on it." No. I, I, (laughs) I don't endorse that, and I'm sure the Listerine company is not too pleased I'm talking about that either. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:57

       So Listerine now just is for breath, right?

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:01

       Yeah. Yeah. It's-

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:01

       That's all it does.

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:02

       Yeah. It's, it's, it's an antiseptic mouthwash, and so-

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:05

       Is it even any good for you? Like is it good to kill all that stuff inside your mouth? Like...

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:10

       I, I'm not a real doctor. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:11

       Right, but you're a medical historian.

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:13

       I'm a medical historian.

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:14

       Yeah.

   23. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:14

       I would say that dentists would say that, that Listerine's still a good product.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:17

       Do you use it, Jim?

   25. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:18

       Kills a lot of bacteria. Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:20

       All right.

   27. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:20

       (laughs) Some form of it, something like that. I just use something. I don't know if it's Crest or Listerine.

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:22

       Some mouthwash? Yeah.

   29. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:23

       You gotta switch to Listerine now. Yeah. That's what I do. In, in honor of, of Joseph Lister.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:27

       So how did he know? How did he know that there was b- germs, that they were real?

3. 3:31 – 7:12

   Operating theaters as paid spectacle: speed-surgeons, showmanship, and the Robert Liston era

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:31

      Well, so let me, let me take you back to sort of before he walks on the scene. So these operating theaters, they were filled to the rafters with ticketed spectators. People actually bought tickets to see someone get their leg hacked off.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:41

      Oh, God.

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:41

      You know? (laughs) And, uh-

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:42

      How much did it cost?

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:44

      Uh, well, I, you know what? No one's asked me that. I don't know how much a ticket would cost, uh, for that-

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:48

      (laughs)

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:49

      ... for that spectacle. Now I really need to look into that. Um, but people would.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:53

      Oh, God. People would pay to watch that?

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:54

      They paid, but for what they pay to watch now, right?

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:56

       Yeah. I guess. Yeah.

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris3:56

       You know, we could say... You know, and when I sent you my book, I, I signed it, and I said, "I thought that being strapped to the Victorian operating table was the original Fear Factor because I can't imagine anything worse than being strapped to this table."

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:10

       Yeah.

   13. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:10

       And so we're talking about before anesthesia, so you're fully awake.

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:14

       Mm-hmm.

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:14

       Um, and one of my favorite surgeons is this guy named Robert Liston. He's 6'2". He's really tall for the 19th century, and he could hold you down with his left arm, and he could take your leg off in about 30 seconds.

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:25

       Oh, Jesus.

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:26

       (laughs) Which is what you'd want. That's what you'd want. Um-

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:29

       You would, but that's still a long time.

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:31

       It is, yeah. I mean, if we just sat here for 30 seconds with dead air time, and you could think about, you know, s-

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:37

       Yeah.

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:37

       ... hacking through that leg.

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       Or just scream for 30 seconds.

   23. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:40

       And... (laughs) I wonder how many people would be, at the end of this podcast, like five people would be still out there listening.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:47

       (laughs)

   25. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:47

       Um, so, so he was incredibly fast. He was known as the fastest knife in the West End.

   26. JRJoe Rogan4:52

       Jesus.

   27. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:52

       He would walk in. He was a showman, so he'd walk in, and he'd say, "Time, ye gentlemen." And you could just hear the ripple of pocket watches as they came out.

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:59

       There he is. There's a dr- a drawing of him.

   29. LFLindsey Fitzharris4:59

       There he is. Yep. There he is. Um, hacking.

   30. JRJoe Rogan5:02

       And he's using a knife in that photo.
4. 7:12 – 11:23

   Desperation medicine: bladder stones, DIY disasters, and the brutal reality of lithotomy

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris7:12

      And the, and these theaters were s- I mean, the, the floor of the operating theater was crowded as well, so they'd have to actually clear the floor sometimes. So you could imagine, you know, you're strapped to this ... And the leg wasn't the worst thing. So one of the tweets that you shared of mine, which, uh, your platform seemed to enjoy (laughs) quite a lot, and sold me a lot of books, by the way, thank you, um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:32

      Awesome.

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris7:32

      ... was this story about this guy who was suffering from a bladder stone and it got stuck in his urethra. And so out of desperation, he stuck a nail down his penis and he hammered it to break it up.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:44

      Yeah, I remember that one.

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris7:45

      Yeah. And, uh, yeah, people went nuts on your platform for that story, so they, they obviously are ready for this interview.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:51

      How did that work again? That didn't work, right?

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris7:52

      It did not work. No, he died.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:54

      Yeah, whoops.

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris7:54

      That guy definitely died. Um, but it's ... It really illustrates how desperate people were back then and how few options-

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:01

       Yeah.

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris8:02

       ... they had. Um-

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:03

       Yeah, there, there's the image of it. I don't think you're allowed to show this on YouTube, Jamie.

   13. JVJamie Vernon8:08

       Yeah, what?

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:08

       You'll get banned.

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris8:08

       Oh, that was when I said.

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:10

       So this is, this is definitely a medical, medical e- uh ...

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris8:12

       It is, it is a medical image, it's-

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:12

       Yeah, I'm sure it is, but I don't think you can show that on YouTube.

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris8:15

       Really?

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:15

       That's clearly a penis.

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris8:16

       (laughs)

   22. JVJamie Vernon8:17

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:17

       There's, there's penises and breasts on YouTube.

   24. LFLindsey Fitzharris8:19

       I sent Jamie a lot of penis photos.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:20

       Yeah, but I think they look at those more carefully.

   26. JVJamie Vernon8:22

       (laughs) All right. Well, it's not on there, I'm just ...

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:24

       Oh, okay, good. (laughs)

   28. LFLindsey Fitzharris8:26

       (laughs)

   29. JVJamie Vernon8:26

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan8:26

       Well, just to shelve, shelve folks. If they wanna see-
5. 11:23 – 28:24

   Major operations without anesthesia: facial tumors, home mastectomies, and why hospitals were worse

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris11:23

      And, and in the past, before anesthesia, a lot of times patients were sat in chairs, so they weren't laid down. Um, and they were sat in these very high chairs so that their feet dangled so they couldn't brace against the knife, if you think about-

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:35

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris11:35

      ... like pushing off with your feet.

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:36

      Right. Of course.

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris11:37

      Um, there's a, there's a story about a guy named, um, Robert Penman, and I know we have images and I'm sure YouTube won't take those down. Um, he, he comes to, uh, Robert Liston, the fastest knife in the West End in the eight- in 1828, and he has this huge facial tumor growing. I mean, it's been growing for about eight years. It's taking up his whole face. He can't breathe now. And Liston looks at him and says, "I can't do this operation," which is tantamount to a death sentence. But he goes up to Scotland and he goes... There he is.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:07

      Wow.

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:07

      Um, yeah. It's, it's incredible when you see that painting. Um, so Penman goes up to Scotland and he sees a guy named James Syme, and Syme agrees to do this operation, and Penman is sat for 24 minutes in a chair restrained while this thing is cut out of his face-

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:23

      Jesus Christ.

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:23

      ... and drops in a bucket. And, and, um-

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       Did he survive?

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:28

       Yeah. Well, we have a picture of him later in life. (laughs) Um-

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:30

       Oh, wow.

   13. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:31

       You know, and he looks-

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:32

       He looks like he's going, "Hmm."

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:33

       Yeah. He looks kind of like an ugly Abraham Lincoln-

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       Yeah.

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:36

       ... and Lincoln wasn't really known for his looks. Um-

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:38

       I bet he's psyched that he doesn't have that thing on his face though. I mean, I'll take that.

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:41

       Yeah. I mean, you could see that the jaw i- is definitely slimmer.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:45

       Yeah.

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:45

       Um, but he doesn't look too deformed considering what he went through. So it is incredible. Um, you get such crazy stories, like there's a woman who has a mastectomy in 1840 without any anesthetic.

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:58

       (gasps)

   23. LFLindsey Fitzharris12:58

       Now, at this time, you would've... If you were wealthy or if you were middle class, you'd have this operation in your home.

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:03

       Oh, God.

   25. LFLindsey Fitzharris13:03

       So you just have it on like your kitchen table.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:04

       Oh, Jesus.

   27. LFLindsey Fitzharris13:05

       (laughs) Um, which is... Which would've been safer than going (laughs) into the hospitals.

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:08

       Really?

   29. LFLindsey Fitzharris13:09

       Yeah, because the hospitals were crawling with all kinds of infection. So hospitals were places for the poor, and, um-

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:15

       Oh.
6. 28:24 – 31:51

   From broken bones to germ theory: how Lister inferred infection came from outside

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:24

      For an hour.

   2. LFLindsey Fitzharris28:24

      ... um, there was a little boy who was 12 years old, his name was Henry Pace, and he was told by the surgeon he had to have his leg removed. And he said, as little kids do, "Would it hurt?" And the surgeon said, "No more than having a tooth pulled."

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:36

      Oh, God.

   4. LFLindsey Fitzharris28:36

      So he was very unprepared, so they brought him to the operating theater and he was so awake and so aware, he remembers counting six strokes of the saw before his little leg fell off.

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:45

      Why'd they have to cut his leg off?

   6. LFLindsey Fitzharris28:47

      He broke it. And, um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:48

      Jesus Christ.

   8. LFLindsey Fitzharris28:48

      ... if, if you had a... (laughs) ... it was just a sprain, and they just decided to take it off. No, I mean, if it was a compound fracture, the chances of it, um, becoming infected was quite high. So when Lister comes along, and he's trying to figure out what's causing infection-

   9. JRJoe Rogan29:03

      (coughs)

   10. LFLindsey Fitzharris29:03

       ... he notices that if it's a clean break, and there's no break in the skin, usually it heals okay. But if there's a break in the skin, it gets infected, and usually it leads to some kind of gangrene or septicemia.

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:13

       Mm.

   12. LFLindsey Fitzharris29:13

       And that's how he starts to wonder, "It must be something coming from outside and getting into this wound that is causing, um, the infection." But he reads Louis Pasteur's germ theory, and this is how-

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:24

       Mm.

   14. LFLindsey Fitzharris29:24

       ... he starts to put it together. But when he first comes out with it, you know, pe- there's a lot of pushback because medicine and science are essentially conservative in the sense that it's like puzzle-solving. If someone, you know... You, you solve the puzzle within the rules that are already set out. If someone comes from sort of the fringe and has this wild idea, usually there's a lot of pushback. And so that's exactly what happens with Lister. And it's hard for us to imagine because germs, we understand them today. It seems obvious to us. But back then, a surgeon didn't wash his hands or his instruments because why would he wash his hands or his instruments if they were going to get dirty with the next patient? So the, you have to get into the mind, the logical, uh, mind of a Victorian surgeon. Um, they wore aprons. I think, Jamie had also sent a picture of, like, a surgeon with, with his apron on. Um, actually it's a picture of a butcher, um, but it gives you that kind of idea of, of what your friendly Victorian surgeon would have been wearing. And, um, that apron, the more blood it had on it, it was like a, a sign of pride almost, because that meant that your surgeon was very experienced and had-

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:28

       Oh, God.

   16. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:28

       ... a lot of blood on it. Um-

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       That's a, that's a butcher, though.

   18. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:30

       That is a butcher, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:31

       Not a surgeon. But similar tools of the trade.

   20. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:33

       Yep, similar tools, and s- and certainly that apron would have been on your surgeon.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:37

       I don't know about the hat.

   22. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:38

       (laughs) Yeah. I know. It's kind of like Gangs of New York, you know?

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       (laughs) Exactly.

   24. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:42

       You kind of, you kind of picture they would have worn those really tall top hats-

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       (laughs)

   26. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:45

       ... and, um, those crazy plaid colors, and it's, it's a very colorful time before Victoria, of course, plunges the nation into mourning, um, later. So Lister's coming in along, uh, the 1840s. It's very sort of colorful and filthy and dirty, and they-

   27. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       Victoria plunged the nation into mourning? What do you mean by that?

   28. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:00

       Well, when, uh, when her husband died, um, she went into sort of lifetime mourning. So she's always wearing black for the rest of her life.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:08

       Oh.

   30. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:08

       And everybody follows her example.
7. 31:51 – 1:05:41

   Anesthesia arrives—and paradoxically makes surgery deadlier before antisepsis catches up

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:51

      So they were experimenting with all these drugs on-

   2. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:53

      Oh, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:54

      ... on themselves?

   4. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:54

      Oh, yeah. It was like-

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:55

      (clears throat)

   6. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:55

      The... It was just a crazy time. So ether is... So my book, um, begins with the first operation under anesthesia. And I wanted to start there because I think if anybody has ever thought about the history of surgery, which they might not have until they (laughs) turned into this podcast, they tend to think of that moment. That's the big moment. But actually, surgery becomes much more dangerous because the surgeon still doesn't understand germs, but he doesn't have the patient fighting him anymore.

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:23

      Mm.

   8. LFLindsey Fitzharris32:23

      Um, so he's more willing to pick up the knife and go deeper in the body, and so postoperative infection rises. And it, and it opens with the great Robert Liston, and he performs the first operation under ether in, um, 1846 in London. And, um, and he doesn't think it's going to work. It comes from America. He calls it the Yankee Dodge. Um, and it's a miracle. It works, and the age of agony is over. When ether was discovered, everybody wanted to try it, this drug that made you insensible. What was that like? And so you get these kinds of stories of medical students sniffing it and drinking it. In fact, I believe there's still a place in London you can get an ether cocktail.

   9. JRJoe Rogan33:00

      What?

   10. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:00

       Um, again, I don't, (laughs) I don't endorse it. It's highly flammable. So people also smoked a lot in operating theaters, so you can imagine that there were a lot of-

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:09

       Oh, Christ.

   12. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:09

       Yeah, there were a lot of accidents. Um, but, but you drop it on a... Basically, 'cause it evaporates really quickly, you drop it on a strawberry, and then you dunk it into champagne, and it's supposed to get you really high very quickly, and then it wears off equally quickly.

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:23

       Hm.

   14. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:23

       I tried to convince my publisher to have ether cocktails (laughs) at the book launch, but they were like, "Mm, not gonna happen."

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       Just have a bunch of Ubers ready to stand by.

   16. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:29

       Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Just, yeah. Or carriages, like in the Victorian... Um, so, so people were, yeah, definitely trying. And then, of course-

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:37

       Have you tried it?

   18. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:38

       I've not tried it. I haven't found that bar yet.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:39

       But yet you were willing-

   20. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:40

       But there's rumor...

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:40

       ... to experiment on the people that came to your book launch.

   22. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:42

       Hell, yeah. Why not?

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:43

       (laughs)

   24. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:43

       That would be the best thing. Great story, you know? Um, instead of people-

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:46

       I would feel like you should probably dip your toe in first.

   26. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:49

       Yeah, maybe, maybe try it out.

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:51

       Yeah.

   28. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:51

       Um, maybe for the next book.

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:53

       Yeah.

   30. LFLindsey Fitzharris33:53

       Um, but, uh, yeah. And so, so you have ether in sort of the mid-19th century, and then, of course, later you have cocaine, you have, um, opium, which is, um... Well, actually, cocaine comes along and is presented as sort of a, a cure to the opiate, uh, the morphine addiction. So, like, take cocaine-
8. 41:12 – 45:52

   Plague doctor masks, miasma theory, quarantine practices, and the ‘hazmat’ analogy

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris41:12

      Um, and, and, you know, actually, do you know what this is that I brought, this, um ... If people are just listening, it's, it's a long-beaked mask. I don't know if I'm holding this up.

   2. JRJoe Rogan41:20

      Like a bird mask.

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris41:22

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan41:23

      I do not know what that is.

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris41:24

      Okay. So this, a lot of people think this is a Venetian mask. This is actually particularly, um, a particular example from Venice. It is, um, what people would have, doctors would have worn during the bubonic plague.

   6. JRJoe Rogan41:35

      Whoa.

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris41:35

      So it's called the plague doctor mask. And so, um, it was invented in the 17th century, um, eh, by a French doctor, and the idea behind it was, so people thought that disease was spread by this thing called miasma, which are like little particles in the air. They're sort of associated with bad smells, so if, if something smells bad, it's probably not good for you is what they thought. And it kind of makes sense because if like, you know, you're in a really, um, if you're in a slummy area of the Victorian period, it probably has a lot of disease. It probably doesn't smell good. So that was sort of the thinking behind it. So what you would do is you would put sweet-smelling herbs into the beak, and so you would be smelling this and it would protect you from those evil miasma.

   8. JRJoe Rogan42:15

      Whoa.

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris42:15

      Yeah. It's ... And you know.

   10. JRJoe Rogan42:17

       Is that a real one?

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris42:19

       No. We don't actually have, um ... I don't believe there's an example of a real one from the 17th century, but there's a lot of illustrations of the plague doctor, and he would have been wearing, um, a hat. He would have been wearing a cape, um, eh, leather gloves, like sort of just protecting himself. Oh, there you go.

   12. JRJoe Rogan42:35

       That's a real one? Authentic 16th century plague doctor mask preserved and on display at the ... Whoa, there you go, another one, Deutsches Medizinisches...

   13. LFLindsey Fitzharris42:45

       Yeah. That-

   14. JRJoe Rogan42:45

       Museum, German Museum of Medical History.

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris42:47

       But I question that because it was invented in the 17th century. So if it's real, it's going to be a little bit later. Um-

   16. JRJoe Rogan42:54

       Interesting.

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris42:54

       But we don't know how much they were worn because they would have been expensive. A lot of doctors weren't very noble, so if the plague broke out, they got the hell out of there. Um, there was sort of a phrase, "Go far and go long," (laughs) you know, get out and don't come back for a while.

   18. JRJoe Rogan43:08

       God.

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris43:08

       There wasn't much they could do for you. They had a, a stick as well that they would sort of poke the patient with, so they wouldn't have to touch the patient and kind of have them turn over and they can, you know, yes, you have the plague. There wasn't much they could do for you. Um, we can cure the plague-

   20. JRJoe Rogan43:23

       A- and again, this is, they did not know what, what, what germs were.

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris43:26

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan43:26

       So they really didn't understand what the plague was.

   23. LFLindsey Fitzharris43:28

       They, they had sort of a concept of, of contagion. So if you broke out with the plague, they would probably quarantine you in your house, um, and they put a big cross on the door. And so people would bring food and, um, you, you'd, um, you know, put a basket outside of your window with a rope and you'd take ... And so they'd do that until everybody was dead in the house or that the plague had passed and they felt that you were, uh, safe to come out into the general population. So there was an idea that these things were contagious, um, but not, again, in the way that we kind of understand disease, diseases being spread today.

   24. JRJoe Rogan44:01

       God, that's so strange that they would ... Uh, like, you would not know what was going on. Like people would just-

   25. LFLindsey Fitzharris44:07

       No.

   26. JRJoe Rogan44:07

       ... start dying and you'd be like, "What is ... Is this a curse?"

   27. LFLindsey Fitzharris44:09

       You would think that it was ... Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan44:11

       Yeah.

   29. LFLindsey Fitzharris44:11

       It could be God's curse. Um, uh, and, and people say, you know, "Oh, the plague mask is so terrifying." Um, and-

   30. JRJoe Rogan44:18

       It is pretty creepy. Can I put it on?
9. 45:52 – 49:03

   A Rogan detour: alien abduction memories as childbirth trauma and medical imagery in dreams

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:52

      Are you aware of the theory of alien abduction being a distant memory of childbirth?

   2. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:59

      No.

   3. JRJoe Rogan46:00

      Yeah. There's a, there's a theory that is actually being, um, uh, tossed about that these people that have this ancient ... well, they have this memory of childbirth, right?

   4. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:12

      Okay.

   5. JRJoe Rogan46:12

      So all of a sudden you're being born, there's bright lights above you. There's a, uh, a man or a woman who's the surgeon with a mask that covers their face, so all you see is their eyes.

   6. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:21

      Okay.

   7. JRJoe Rogan46:22

      And everything looks bright and, and it's terrifying and clinical and you're on this table-

   8. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:27

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan46:27

      ... and everything's cold. M- most of these alien abduction experiences that people recount, they take place in some sort of, uh, a medical facility.

   10. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:37

       Hospital setting. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       Yeah.

   12. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:38

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       And everything is bright and strange-

   14. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:43

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:43

       ... and cold, and they think that what this is, is ... They're, they're saying that we had this idea that children don't have memories, that babies don't have memories. And-

   16. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:52

       Oh, I've seen it, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:52

       ... and so they said, "Well, why wouldn't they have memories? That's ridiculous."

   18. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:54

       Right. Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:54

       Of course, they have memories. They have brains. They, they grab your finger.

   20. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:57

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:57

       They look you in the eye. They would have a memory of every second that they were born.

   22. LFLindsey Fitzharris47:01

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:02

       And-... it's probably one of the most profound and disturbing memories, because before that, everything is incredibly-

   24. LFLindsey Fitzharris47:08

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:08

       ... peaceful.

   26. LFLindsey Fitzharris47:09

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:09

       They're inside the mother's womb. You know?

   28. LFLindsey Fitzharris47:11

       And then you're just, like, taken out and-

   29. JRJoe Rogan47:12

       And then you're pulled out.

   30. LFLindsey Fitzharris47:13

       ... yeah.
10. 49:03 – 52:39

    From midwives to men in childbirth: forceps, early C-sections, and dangerous interventions

    1. LFLindsey Fitzharris49:03

       Well, we're kind of, like, moving back to, you know, it's, um, men start to get involved in childbirth around the 17th century, 18th century.

    2. JRJoe Rogan49:10

       What happened before then? Just hanging out?

    3. LFLindsey Fitzharris49:11

       Um, it was mostly women. Um, so women in the village would come. And actually, the term, um, gossip comes from the idea the women who would spread the word in the village that someone was going into labor, they were called the gossips.

    4. JRJoe Rogan49:23

       Oh, wow.

    5. LFLindsey Fitzharris49:23

       So they would spread the word. It became sort of a negative thing later. So the, the gossips would spread the word. The women would come in. This was a female-only chamber. Um, and men were not really allowed in. A man might be brought in if, uh, the mother was dying or if the child was dying, and then in that case, instruments were brought into the birth, the birthing chamber.

    6. JRJoe Rogan49:44

       Hmm.

    7. LFLindsey Fitzharris49:44

       So the doctor might come in and he might, um, take these sort of forceps and, and pick the baby apart and take the baby out.

    8. JRJoe Rogan49:51

       Oh, God.

    9. LFLindsey Fitzharris49:52

       The baby would die. But in those cases, it was, like, really extreme, like this was gonna happen. Like, either the mother was gonna die, the baby was gonna die, both of them were gonna die.

    10. JRJoe Rogan49:59

        Or if the baby was coming out feet first, they would have to go in there and spin around.

    11. LFLindsey Fitzharris50:01

        Yeah, I mean, but a midwife, a capable midwife could, could handle that. Um, but this, you know, s- the Cesarean section, people think that it comes from the term th- uh, the idea that Julius Caesar was ripped from the womb of his mother.

    12. JRJoe Rogan50:15

        Right.

    13. LFLindsey Fitzharris50:15

        But, um, it's unlikely that that story is true because his mother lives into old age.

    14. JRJoe Rogan50:20

        Mm-hmm.

    15. LFLindsey Fitzharris50:20

        So probably the, the term Cesarean comes from the Latin term meaning to cut, and the first sort of, uh, record we have of this happening, I think, is in the 16th century, and it's a farmer, and he takes the instruments that he uses to castrate his pigs to cut this baby out of his wife.

    16. JRJoe Rogan50:37

        Oh, Jesus Christ.

    17. LFLindsey Fitzharris50:38

        Um, yeah, and, and we don't have any records of whether this ... (laughs) This, it probably didn't work. Again, no idea of germs, all this kind of stuff. Um, but-

    18. JRJoe Rogan50:46

        We don't know if she lived?

    19. LFLindsey Fitzharris50:47

        We ... Uh, yeah, I don't ha- uh, there's no sort of ... It doesn't follow. The records don't follow the story, um, but she probably died, and the baby probably died as well.

    20. JRJoe Rogan50:55

        And for people who don't know, they, uh, castrate pigs to make them more edible. They, uh-

    21. LFLindsey Fitzharris50:59

        Oh.

    22. JRJoe Rogan50:59

        They oftentimes, uh, castrate them and then let them loose because then they s-

    23. LFLindsey Fitzharris51:03

        Huh.

    24. JRJoe Rogan51:03

        They concentrate on grass and not ass. That is a actual farmer's term.

    25. LFLindsey Fitzharris51:08

        I, I have ... You know, talking about Cesarean sections and castrating pigs.

    26. JRJoe Rogan51:12

        Yeah.

    27. LFLindsey Fitzharris51:12

        Who knew those two things would-

    28. JRJoe Rogan51:13

        (laughs)

    29. LFLindsey Fitzharris51:13

        ... would go together?

    30. JRJoe Rogan51:13

        Well, that's what they do with steers as well.
11. 52:39 – 1:07:32

    Fitzharris’ path into medical history, academic vs popular storytelling, and why the book matters personally

    1. JRJoe Rogan52:39

       Um, so when you think about the history of surgery, and y- you, you concentrate on this one very particular time.

    2. LFLindsey Fitzharris52:48

       In this book, yes.

    3. JRJoe Rogan52:49

       In this book.

    4. LFLindsey Fitzharris52:50

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan52:50

       But as a medical historian, like when... What... First of all, what led you to that?

    6. LFLindsey Fitzharris52:54

       (laughs)

    7. JRJoe Rogan52:54

       Like why... You seem so normal.

    8. LFLindsey Fitzharris52:55

       It's a real thing. (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan52:56

       (laughs)

    10. LFLindsey Fitzharris52:57

        Oh, yeah. I'm super normal. Look at all these skulls and stuff in front of me.

    11. JRJoe Rogan52:59

        (laughs)

    12. LFLindsey Fitzharris53:00

        Um, (laughs) , I, you know, I'm like that kid who never grew out of the obsession with Tales from the Crypt. And, uh-

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:06

        Oh, me too.

    14. LFLindsey Fitzharris53:06

        Yeah, Ripley's Believe It or Not!.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:07

        I love that stuff.

    16. LFLindsey Fitzharris53:07

        You know, the shrunken heads.

    17. JRJoe Rogan53:08

        Yeah.

    18. LFLindsey Fitzharris53:08

        I actually did a, um, a, a segment for a documentary on the shrunken heads, and I had to go out to Poland. I actually got to hold these things that I was always fascinated with growing up.

    19. JRJoe Rogan53:18

        Well, people don't know that... Like, they think the skull's in there. That's why they don't understand-

    20. LFLindsey Fitzharris53:22

        Yes, that's right. Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan53:22

        ... like, "How do you shrink a head?"

    22. LFLindsey Fitzharris53:23

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan53:23

        Yeah.

    24. LFLindsey Fitzharris53:23

        And it's, it's amazing because, um, what they do is they, obviously, like, they take the skull out, and it's a process. And this documentary was looking at... They were DNA testing them because, um, the tribe that makes these skulls, they were done for a specific purpose, to trap the soul of the warrior that they killed so that... It- there was a spiritual reason behind it.

    25. JRJoe Rogan53:43

        Mm-hmm.

    26. LFLindsey Fitzharris53:43

        But what they were finding was that some of these shrunken heads were female, um, which probably means that, um, as Westerners came into these areas, they wanted to collect these shrunken heads as curiosities, of course. And so, they traded guns for heads. And so, it kinda drove up the, uh, the demand for these, these shrunken heads.

    27. JRJoe Rogan54:02

        So, they started killing women.

    28. LFLindsey Fitzharris54:03

        Well, i- it wasn't just wo- it, it... Just anybody. And it might not have been, um, killing them. It might have just been taking bodies of people who had already died.

    29. JRJoe Rogan54:10

        Right.

    30. LFLindsey Fitzharris54:10

        But they definitely aren't all authentic in the sense that they were, um-

Episode duration: 1:48:35