Joe Rogan Experience #1272 - Lindsey Fitzharris

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... (sniffs) four, three-…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... (sniffs) four, three-

   2. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:03

      Hold on a second.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Whoops. We got an issue?

   4. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:04

      Uh, uh, maybe. Let me check.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Okay, here we go. Five, four, three, two... Yes! And we're live. Hello, Lindsay.

   6. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:24

      Hey. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      What's happening?

   8. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:25

      Not much. Thanks for having me here.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      Pleasure to meet you.

   10. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:27

       Yeah. Yeah. Good to meet you. I'm, I'm the girl who tags you in all the disgusting-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       (laughs)

   12. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:30

       ... medical history photos. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Well-

   14. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:32

       And I'm really looking forward to grossing out your audience today.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       I, I'm looking forward you, to you doing that as well. You have, uh, fascinated me-

   16. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:39

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       ... with your, uh, Twitter page. And you, like, uh, first of all, how... You are a doctor, right?

   18. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:46

       Well, I'm a PhD. I can't save anybody's life.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Okay.

   20. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:49

       I could perform, you know, Victorian surgery amputation or something, but-

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       I think anybody can, right?

   22. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:53

       Yeah. Yeah. Probably.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Is that a real one, that saw?

   24. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:55

       No. This is, this is a prop.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       Oh.

   26. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:57

       Um, so this is-

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       (laughs)

   28. LFLindsey Fitzharris0:59

       This was a, was a real fun thing to get through, uh, customs, uh, when I was coming in from Britain. It's, uh, a Victorian amputation saw. It's called the clockwork saw and, um, for people who are just listening, it's, it's a circular saw, and there would have been a crank that you wound it with, and then you'd release it, and it would spin sort of automatically.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Oh, God.

   30. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:18

       Yeah. And the idea was that it would make it faster, but the reason why I love this saw so much is that it was a massive failure. (laughs) And, um, I don't think we talk about failure enough in science and medicine. You know, all the things that work, there's a lot of things that don't work. And so this guy who invented this saw, when he tried it out, it was spinning so fast that he took off his assistant's fingers.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Oh. …

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:00

      of metastatic cancers.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      Oh.

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:01

      So it's older than you think. They're, um, diagnosing it for, for centuries and centuries. I'm not really an expert in history of cancer, but it is around. And so with breast cancer, you know, probably by the time it got to the stage of mastectomy, it probably would've spread. If you think about like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:19

      ... uh, you know, it being visible to the naked eye.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      But yet, yet she survived.

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:23

      She did survive, and so then you have to question whether she had breast cancer or maybe it was some kind of just like-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:28

      Cyst?

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:28

      Yeah, maybe a cyst, and she went through that for that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       Oh.

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:30

       But yeah. And again, before antiseptics, before Lister comes on, um, and comes up with germ-fighting techniques, this would've been so dangerous because you have this open cavity and wound.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       Yeah.

   13. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:42

       And so Joseph Lister, when he comes up with his antiseptic techniques, he actually performs a mastectomy on his sister on his dining room table.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:49

       Oh, Christ.

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:49

       (laughs) Which... And she survives, and, and that's in the book. See, this, this would be a great movie, don't you think?

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:54

       Y- I do think it would be a great movie. I...

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris15:57

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       It's like, it would be a great movie for the Coen brothers.

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris16:00

       (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:00

       You know, because it's so chaos filled and-

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris16:03

       I know. And all of that kind of grittiness-

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:05

       Yeah.

   23. LFLindsey Fitzharris16:06

       ... and, um...

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       They do good period pieces too.

   25. LFLindsey Fitzharris16:08

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Plus they could make it more entertaining.

   27. LFLindsey Fitzharris16:11

       Let's make this happen, Joe. Let's. (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:12

       I have no pull.

   29. LFLindsey Fitzharris16:13

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       I'm not a part of that world. But this guy with the face, where they cut that tumor out of his face, so for 24 minutes, that's all it took to cut that thing out of his face?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Oh, God. …

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:00

      dirty with the next patient? So the, you have to get into the mind, the logical, uh, mind of a Victorian surgeon. Um, they wore aprons. I think, Jamie had also sent a picture of, like, a surgeon with, with his apron on. Um, actually it's a picture of a butcher, um, but it gives you that kind of idea of, of what your friendly Victorian surgeon would have been wearing. And, um, that apron, the more blood it had on it, it was like a, a sign of pride almost, because that meant that your surgeon was very experienced and had-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:28

      Oh, God.

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:28

      ... a lot of blood on it. Um-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:29

      That's a, that's a butcher, though.

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:30

      That is a butcher, yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:31

      Not a surgeon. But similar tools of the trade.

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:33

      Yep, similar tools, and s- and certainly that apron would have been on your surgeon.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:37

      I don't know about the hat.

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:38

      (laughs) Yeah. I know. It's kind of like Gangs of New York, you know?

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       (laughs) Exactly.

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:42

       You kind of, you kind of picture they would have worn those really tall top hats-

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       (laughs)

   13. LFLindsey Fitzharris30:45

       ... and, um, those crazy plaid colors, and it's, it's a very colorful time before Victoria, of course, plunges the nation into mourning, um, later. So Lister's coming in along, uh, the 1840s. It's very sort of colorful and filthy and dirty, and they-

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       Victoria plunged the nation into mourning? What do you mean by that?

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:00

       Well, when, uh, when her husband died, um, she went into sort of lifetime mourning. So she's always wearing black for the rest of her life.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:08

       Oh.

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:08

       And everybody follows her example.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       Oh.

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:12

       So we think of the Victorians wearing sort of all that black, but in Gangs of New York, a lot of people thought that that was sort of an imagined world, but actually, that's what they would have looked like. They would have been wearing those plaids and those bright colors and those top hats. But Lister was a Quaker. We think of, like, Quaker Oats, which is, is kind of accurate. Um, and he would have been wearing sort of black and white and very dull colors.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:31

       Mm.

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:31

       So when I think about this movie, 'cause I think about it a lot, I think about sort of this world being very hedonistic and colorful, and there's a lot of drugs going on. Um, they're discovering ether and all kinds of things that they're experimenting with, and then you have this somber Quaker. And as the movie sort of progresses, the world catches up and gets a bit cleaner with Lister.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:51

       So they were experimenting with all these drugs on-

   23. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:53

       Oh, yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:54

       ... on themselves?

   25. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:54

       Oh, yeah. It was like-

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:55

       (clears throat)

   27. LFLindsey Fitzharris31:55

       The... It was just a crazy time. So ether is... So my book, um, begins with the first operation under anesthesia. And I wanted to start there because I think if anybody has ever thought about the history of surgery, which they might not have until they (laughs) turned into this podcast, they tend to think of that moment. That's the big moment. But actually, surgery becomes much more dangerous because the surgeon still doesn't understand germs, but he doesn't have the patient fighting him anymore.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:23

       Mm.

   29. LFLindsey Fitzharris32:23

       Um, so he's more willing to pick up the knife and go deeper in the body, and so postoperative infection rises. And it, and it opens with the great Robert Liston, and he performs the first operation under ether in, um, 1846 in London. And, um, and he doesn't think it's going to work. It comes from America. He calls it the Yankee Dodge. Um, and it's a miracle. It works, and the age of agony is over. When ether was discovered, everybody wanted to try it, this drug that made you insensible. What was that like? And so you get these kinds of stories of medical students sniffing it and drinking it. In fact, I believe there's still a place in London you can get an ether cocktail.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:00

       What?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   What a weird world…

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:00

      places and things like that. But, um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      What a weird world we live in.

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:03

      Yeah. It is, it is unfortunate.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:04

      Can't even wear a plague mask.

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:05

      Can't wear a plague mask.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:07

      (laughs)

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:07

      I'm gonna bring it back, though. I'm just going to be walking around-

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:09

      Now-

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:09

      ... in downtown LA with this.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:10

       ... how would that attach to your face? So is it like straps or something?

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:12

       Yeah. There would have been straps or, um, in that other example he was showing, it looked like it was sort of a full-on, um-

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:17

       Oh, there it goes. I mean, that looks so creepy.

   13. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:21

       It's so creepy, but-

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:22

       Death.

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:23

       ... today we have the modern plague doctor. What, what do you think that would be?

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:27

       Yeah. The m- the m-

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:28

       The hazmat, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan45:29

       Yeah.

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:29

       Yeah. Exactly. And so you think about the hazmat going into hot zones, that would be pretty scary if you didn't know-

   20. JRJoe Rogan45:34

       Oh, yeah.

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:34

       ... what was going on, um, and certainly sort of ominous-

   22. JRJoe Rogan45:37

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:37

       ... you know, when you see the hazmat. So it, it's a weird thing that exists be- uh, because in a strange kind of way, it probably did protect the plague doctor 'cause he was covering himself up, but it protected him for the wrong reasons. He, he still didn't understand how disease was spread.

   24. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       Are you aware of the theory of alien abduction being a distant memory of childbirth?

   25. LFLindsey Fitzharris45:59

       No.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:00

       Yeah. There's a, there's a theory that is actually being, um, uh, tossed about that these people that have this ancient ... well, they have this memory of childbirth, right?

   27. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:12

       Okay.

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       So all of a sudden you're being born, there's bright lights above you. There's a, uh, a man or a woman who's the surgeon with a mask that covers their face, so all you see is their eyes.

   29. LFLindsey Fitzharris46:21

       Okay.

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       And everything looks bright and, and it's terrifying and clinical and you're on this table-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:05:41

   One would hope though.…

   1. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:00

      but I-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:01

      One would hope though. That's-

   3. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:02

      Yeah, one would ho-... Well, there, there has been controversies with certain ex- uh, exhibitions, maybe not Body Worlds, but there's been some spin-offs where there's been-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:10

      ... a question of where they got those bodies.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:12

      Yes.

   7. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:12

      And of course if, if you're also going into sort of poorer areas and asking people to hand over their bodies, is it really consent? Because sometimes these families don't have money for funerals-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

      Right.

   9. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:21

      ... and-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

       Yes.

   11. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:21

       ... so there's other incentives. But I, I think... My view is w- you know, it's, it's given under the guise of science, that we can only view dead bodies through the lens of science today, that's the only acceptable way, but it really is art. Um, and I wish that it would just be more openly recognized as just art, whether it's, you know-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:42

       Yeah.

   13. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:42

       ... your kind of thing or not, because some of it is posed in really shocking ways-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:46

       Right.

   15. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:47

       ... that are unnecessary to teach anatomy.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       Right, right, right.

   17. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:50

       S- so, so, you know, if you're going to say it's an anatomical lesson, why does the person have to be posed in this sort of dramatic way?

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:58

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:00:58

       So I think that, you know, it would be better if we just called it for what it was, it's art and it's supposed to be provocative and shocking, and that's why people come to see it-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

       It's ab-

   21. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:01:06

       ... and we're morbidly curious.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

       It is absolutely interesting.

   23. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:01:09

       Yeah. I mean, and, and people say, "Oh my gosh, uh, the Victorians bought tickets to the operating theater?" Well, people come to my Instagram account, you know? I mean, we're still morbidly curious.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:18

       Yeah. Oh, for sure. I- it's really interesting that it's called a theater as well.

   25. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:01:22

       Yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       Did you ever see that movie with Benicio del Toro? Uh, The w- I think it was just The Wolf Man.

   27. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:01:27

       No.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

       It was one of the more l- recent werewolf movies, but he becomes a werewolf in the operating theater.

   29. LFLindsey Fitzharris1:01:34

       Oh, no.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

       So the doctor is convinced-

Episode duration: 1:48:35