Joe Rogan Experience #1274 - Nicholas Christakis

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   The gay folks took…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      The gay folks took over the rainbow. Four, three, two. Will it work today, Jamie? Yes. Hello, Nicholas.

   2. NCNicholas Christakis0:13

      Hey, Joe. How are you, man?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Great to meet you.

   4. NCNicholas Christakis0:15

      It's really good to meet you, too.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Uh, I became aware of you, like many people did, with the infamous Halloween costume incident at Yale, uh, where, uh... Explain that for people who don't know what happened 'cause it was-

   6. NCNicholas Christakis0:29

      Um.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      ... kind of, kind of a crazy scene. It went national.

   8. NCNicholas Christakis0:31

      Yes. It was, um, a moment when, um, around the country, many students were struggling with how to balance a conflicting, um, sort of needs and-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:41

      Try to keep that a little bit closer-

   10. NCNicholas Christakis0:42

       Con-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       ... to your face. There you go.

   12. NCNicholas Christakis0:43

       ... conflicting needs, uh, w- uh, wha- how on the one hand, to create an environment in schools where peop- everyone sort of felt welcome.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       Mm-hmm.

   14. NCNicholas Christakis0:52

       As we've democratized, uh, admissions to our American universities, as I think we should have, people from all walks of life have started moving into these institutions, claiming them for their own, which I think is appropriate. But at the same time, these institutions had wonderful heritages of commitment to free expression and open debate and, um, and reason as a principle for resolving our differences. And, uh, s- and some of those values came into tension. And so around the country, there was a lot of, um, heat about this, and I happened to walk into a propeller, uh, myself.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       Hmm.

   16. NCNicholas Christakis1:25

       And, um, and wound up, um, in some challenging, uh, circumstances and, um, y- you know, I, I, uh, it was not, uh, it was not the, um, worst thing that's ever happened to me, but, you know, it was in the top 10, uh, challenging moments I've had in my life, let's say.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:45

       Yeah, that's a very lawyer-like way of describing exactly what happened. (laughs)

   18. NCNicholas Christakis1:49

       (laughs) Well, I, well, I, yes. I mean, the thing is, I, you know, I, I, I, uh, you know, I struggle... I mean, you can tell the story if you want-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:56

       Yeah.

   20. NCNicholas Christakis1:56

       ... and then I can correct things, but here's the thing is, uh, it's my job to be a teacher.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:01

       Mm-hmm.

   22. NCNicholas Christakis2:01

       And I have taken responsibility for teaching young people, and it is the case that many people, uh, lost their s- their minds. I mean, lost-

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:10

       Yeah.

   24. NCNicholas Christakis2:10

       ... their senses. And, and, and the faculty too, incidentally. I mean, you know, ther- it's one thing to talk about people in their, and college-aged people, but then d- you know, the faculty also didn't d- necessarily do what they should've done. But, um, but, uh, the, the, the thing is is that y- you know, m- my commitment, it, my commitment is to, is to teaching more generally, and I don't wanna be defined by that event. I don't want that to become a, the most important thing about me. You know, I have this book-

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       Sure.

   26. NCNicholas Christakis2:36

       ... this book that we're gonna talk about that is an important, uh, f- thing in my life. It instantiates my values. It talks about what I think is important about the world. So, so I'm trying to be balanced about it. Just, it's one thing that happened. I did my best. It's in the past.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:49

       Well, let me, let me help out here because you're being so nice about the whole thing. Um, d- so people know what we're talking about. There was a, an incident that was captured on someone's cellphone where you were standing there-

   28. NCNicholas Christakis3:02

       There's th- many people. It was an hour of footage-

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:04

       Yes.

   30. NCNicholas Christakis3:04

       ... five or six different angles, so a clip went viral.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. NCNicholas Christakis15:00

      so I love debating him and I learn from him.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      (laughs)

   3. NCNicholas Christakis15:02

      Like recently, he said to me, and I, and I think I have a better answer. He said he doesn't understand why blackmail is illegal. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:09

      Oh, Jesus Christ.

   5. NCNicholas Christakis15:12

      But the point is, the point is-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      Those anarchists, anarchists and libertarians, all of them need their asses kicked.

   7. NCNicholas Christakis15:18

      Right, well-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      They really do.

   9. NCNicholas Christakis15:19

      Well, the, this is, but this is a far le-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:20

       Settle down.

   11. NCNicholas Christakis15:20

       Exactly. But the thing is-

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       (laughs)

   13. NCNicholas Christakis15:22

       Exactly. These are like, and I think any kind of c- extreme ideology, but the point is we can learn. There is some wisdom almost anywhere, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:31

       Yes.

   15. NCNicholas Christakis15:31

       And, and the problem comes from excess expression. You know, the, the, the problem comes from, um, i- y- you know, there's, there's, there, there, there, i- e- y- th- th- the, the, the problem comes, you know, when we take things to extremes and we get to, you know, private ownership of roads.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:46

       Yes. Yes.

   17. NCNicholas Christakis15:47

       Uh, but anyway.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:48

       And by the way, if you're an anarchist or a libertarian, I'm kidding.

   19. NCNicholas Christakis15:51

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:51

       I don't really think you would get your ass kicked. I'm just joking around. But it is a, it-

   21. NCNicholas Christakis15:55

       You're gonna have a mob after you now. (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       But it's a position that I always feel-

   23. NCNicholas Christakis15:58

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       ... like could be remedied with psychedelic drugs.

   25. NCNicholas Christakis16:00

       It could be, yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       I really feel like it al-

   27. NCNicholas Christakis16:02

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       ... almost always could be. Like I get, uh, you know, I just, I get where they're coming from. I understand personal responsibility, the idea that the free market should decide. I get all that.

   29. NCNicholas Christakis16:12

       Yes.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       But we already accept that there's some things that we agree on that we should all chip in to pay for.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Oh wow. …

   1. NCNicholas Christakis30:00

      not just the structure and function of our minds, but also the structure and function of our societies. And to really prove that, what we would need is something known as the forbidden experiment. And the forbidden experiment is an experiment in which we took a group of babies who had never been taught anything, who are acultural, had no culture, and stranded them on an island, and left them on their own to see what kind of society they would make when they grew up. You know, how would they organize themselves socially? Is there kind of an innate society that human beings are, are pre-wired to make, in an essence? Now, obviously that's unethical and cruel, but actually, monarchs for thousands of years have contemplated this experiment. So Herodotus writes in, about how one of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs wanted to know what kind of language would, w- what was a natural language we had in us that we would speak if we were not taught a language? So this pharaoh, it is said, took two babies and gave them to a mute shepherd to raise to see how did the children speak when they grew up. And, uh, and, and, and, uh, uh, Emperor Akbar attempted this, there was a couple of European kings that attempted this.... obviously we can't actually do this, so what I do in the book is I look at a series of other approximations of that, and one chapter is devoted to looking at shipwrecks, groups of men typically, but sometimes men and women, who between 1500 and 1900, there were 9,000 shipwrecks, many more thousands of ships were lost at sea. And in 20 of those cases, we found 20 cases where, uh, at least 19 people were stranded for at least two months, and, uh, you know, here's a, there's a, a kind of, um, here's a map of the, uh, well here's one crew I can tell you about, but here's a map of the, of the shipwrecks, like these are the-

   2. JRJoe Rogan31:44

      Oh wow.

   3. NCNicholas Christakis31:45

      ... the all over the world, uh, where they occurred, and, uh, when they occurred and how many people there were, and, uh, and so then I, I, uh, I got all the original accounts from the sailors, uh, from the people on the wrecks, and all contemporary archaeological excavations of those wrecks wh- where they had been excavated, and, um, and tried to understand what kind of society did these isolated crews actually wind up making. And there were some amazing stories that were, uh, uh, uh, that I found in there.

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:15

      So, they stayed for at least two months.

   5. NCNicholas Christakis32:17

      Yes.

   6. JRJoe Rogan32:17

      How many of them actually established a real civilization? How many were stuck forever?

   7. NCNicholas Christakis32:21

      Well they didn't ... No, no one was stuck forever, uh, most of those crews were eventually ... In fact, all of those crews had at least one survivor because if they had all died, uh, then I wouldn't be able to know about them.

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:31

      Right, you would have never got the story.

   9. NCNicholas Christakis32:31

      But there's the one famous case in which these s- sailors, uh, were stranded in, near Australia, I think somewhere in the Pacific, and they managed to catch a big petrel, one of those huge birds that, you know, like a condor.

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:43

       Mm-hmm.

   11. NCNicholas Christakis32:44

       And, uh, and they, they, they put a little note in a little tiny bottle and they tied it to its feet, and this petrel flew thousands of miles and landed in Australia, and was found with a note indicating where the i- stranded sailors were.

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:59

       Whoa.

   13. NCNicholas Christakis32:59

       And a ship was sent to go find the men, and it got there but they had all died, they were all gone, so they (laughs) used this-

   14. JRJoe Rogan33:07

       Wow.

   15. NCNicholas Christakis33:07

       ... this, uh, this bird, so, so-

   16. JRJoe Rogan33:09

       They should have ate the bird.

   17. NCNicholas Christakis33:10

       Well no, they didn't eat the bird, they put the-

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:11

       They should've.

   19. NCNicholas Christakis33:12

       No, (laughs) .

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:12

       They'd still be alive.

   21. NCNicholas Christakis33:15

       I think if you had that choice, you would communicate rather than eat, Joe, I think.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:19

       Yes.

   23. NCNicholas Christakis33:20

       Yes.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       For a little bit.

   25. NCNicholas Christakis33:22

       Well, until the very end, yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:23

       Then I started eating those birds.

   27. NCNicholas Christakis33:23

       Yes, yes. But, uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:25

       Did they starve to death? Did they know what happened to them?

   29. NCNicholas Christakis33:26

       We don't know, nobody knows, but the point is that we have to have a, for me to be able to describe what happened, we needed at least one survivor.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:32

       Yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   (sniffs) I am too,…

   1. NCNicholas Christakis45:00

      the, you know, uh, I think in the long arc of history, I think the United States stands for many of the best principles, uh, in the world. And I'm prepared to defend those principles.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:11

      (sniffs) I am too, and I think, uh, like you were saying with your libertarian friend, and, you know, someone who may be an anarchist or whatever-

   3. NCNicholas Christakis45:17

      No.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      ... there's, it, it, there's room for all these weird opinions.

   5. NCNicholas Christakis45:21

      Yes.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:21

      They, they might not be correct and they will all be represented in this just gigantic soup of human beings-

   7. NCNicholas Christakis45:28

      Yes.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:28

      ... that's 300-plus million.

   9. NCNicholas Christakis45:29

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       It's just, uh, it, the idea that America is like, uh, w- white nationalists in Charlottesville-

   11. NCNicholas Christakis45:37

       Yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:37

       ... this is what's wrong with America. (coughs) No, what's wrong with America is volume. You know, you're go- you're gonna have certain ridiculous ideas and awful ideas that are amplified in this volume, th- this incredible mass of humans.

   13. NCNicholas Christakis45:51

       Yes, I think, with, um, a large, I think that's right, I think our size, uh, contributes to, uh, or makes a kind of heterogeneity of ideas more easy. Uh, you know, if we were a tiny country, although even in small democracies, you know, like, you go to European countries that are tiny, uh, Spain for example, I mean, it's not tiny, but it's tiny compared to us, uh, you know, there's a lot of difference of beliefs, from far left to far right. But I think, I think the key aspect which you were talking about earlier, which again, you're highlighting, which I agree with, is that we want an environment in which people can, the ground rules are clear, so, you know, you can't, there's no physical contact allowed, right? So we do- we draw a bright-line distinction between words and deeds. So I completely reject the idea that words are, um-

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:35

       Violent.

   15. NCNicholas Christakis46:35

       ... violent. Yeah, totally.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:36

       Yeah.

   17. NCNicholas Christakis46:37

       I totally reject that. Uh, and, and because we have different words for it, they're two different things (laughs) . Totally different.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:42

       Right.

   19. NCNicholas Christakis46:42

       Uh, we, we, so grounds are, you know, I can't touch you, but I can speak. Uh, other ground rules are that we are committed to open expression. A good ground rule would be that we grant positive intent, we grant good intent, that is to say I try to put what you're saying in the most favorable light. First, I think about it, I say, "Okay, now wait a minute, what is he saying? What does he mean by that? He might-"

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:02

       Yes.

   21. NCNicholas Christakis47:02

       Uh, now, you might be an idiot, a person may be an idiot. They may be vile, they may be violent, they may be wrong, you know, all of those things are also possible. But that's not the first go-to. Um, so anyway, if we set those ground rules, I think, I believe strongly that in the marketplace of ideas, truth will out, um, a- and, and righteousness will out. That's, that's what I think. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in fact what we need is a benevolent dictator who, you know, comes down and tells us all what to think and do. But that's not the world I wanna live in.

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:32

       Yeah, the benevolent dictator idea is, what does that come from? Like why, is it just because it's, that's really been the only way that society has actually functioned for most of the past few thousand years?

   23. NCNicholas Christakis47:42

       Well, I think people have always fantasized, right? Every, I mean-

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:45

       Yeah.

   25. NCNicholas Christakis47:45

       ... S- Plato talks about this, I mean, people look around and they think, "Situation is not so great."

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:50

       Right.

   27. NCNicholas Christakis47:50

       "I really wish there was a strong man that would come down and fix it."

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:53

       Yes.

   29. NCNicholas Christakis47:53

       Um, it's very tempting-

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:55

       And this is the, this is the inclination towards Trump.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:12:20

   You know what's not…

   1. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:00

      I didn't know what I thought about it. And now I love whiskey, right? It's an acquired taste. So the first time you drink something like that, you think, you know, "Yes, they put resin, they put pine resin in their white wine. They chill it." I should've brought you some. Maybe I'll send you some.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:12

      You know what's not an acquired taste?

   3. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:12

      What's not? Ouzo?

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

      Kool-Aid. It's delicious.

   5. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:15

      Uh, from the beginning, yes. (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

      Just right out of the jar.

   7. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:18

      Yes, right out of the-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

      It's cold-

   9. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:19

      Yes. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

       ... and it's just so good.

   11. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:19

       It's sweet. Yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

       Ooh.

   13. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:21

       Yes, yes, yes.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:22

       You know?

   15. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:23

       Well-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:23

       You don't have to convince anybody.

   17. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:24

       Yes, that's right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

       (laughs)

   19. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:26

       That's right. Some things-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

       (laughs)

   21. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:27

       That's right. Some things are just good right out of the box.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:29

       They're just good.

   23. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:30

       Yes, yes. (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:00:30

       Kool-Aid is just good.

   25. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:32

       Yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:00:32

       I mean, I don't recommend you drink it all the time. It's full of sugar.

   27. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:34

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

       It's terrible for you.

   29. NCNicholas Christakis1:00:36

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

       But damn, that stuff tastes good.

Episode duration: 2:21:44