Joe Rogan Experience #1274 - Nicholas Christakis

Joe Rogan 0:00 The gay folks took over the rainbow. Four, three, two. Will it work today, Jamie? Yes. Hello, Nicholas.

Nicholas Christakis 0:13 Hey, Joe. How are you, man?

Joe Rogan 0:14 Great to meet you.

Nicholas Christakis 0:15 It's really good to meet you, too.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Uh, I became aware of you, like many people did, with the infamous Halloween costume incident at Yale, uh, where, uh... Explain that for people who don't know what happened 'cause it was-

Nicholas Christakis 0:29 Um.

Joe Rogan 0:29 ... kind of, kind of a crazy scene. It went national.

Nicholas Christakis 0:31 Yes. It was, um, a moment when, um, around the country, many students were struggling with how to balance a conflicting, um, sort of needs and-

Joe Rogan 0:41 Try to keep that a little bit closer-

Nicholas Christakis 0:42 Con-

Joe Rogan 0:42 ... to your face. There you go.

Nicholas Christakis 0:43 ... conflicting needs, uh, w- uh, wha- how on the one hand, to create an environment in schools where peop- everyone sort of felt welcome.

Joe Rogan 0:52 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 0:52 As we've democratized, uh, admissions to our American universities, as I think we should have, people from all walks of life have started moving into these institutions, claiming them for their own, which I think is appropriate. But at the same time, these institutions had wonderful heritages of commitment to free expression and open debate and, um, and reason as a principle for resolving our differences. And, uh, s- and some of those values came into tension. And so around the country, there was a lot of, um, heat about this, and I happened to walk into a propeller, uh, myself.

Joe Rogan 1:25 Hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 1:25 And, um, and wound up, um, in some challenging, uh, circumstances and, um, y- you know, I, I, uh, it was not, uh, it was not the, um, worst thing that's ever happened to me, but, you know, it was in the top 10, uh, challenging moments I've had in my life, let's say.

Joe Rogan 1:45 Yeah, that's a very lawyer-like way of describing exactly what happened. (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 1:49 (laughs) Well, I, well, I, yes. I mean, the thing is, I, you know, I, I, I, uh, you know, I struggle... I mean, you can tell the story if you want-

Joe Rogan 1:56 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:56 ... and then I can correct things, but here's the thing is, uh, it's my job to be a teacher.

Joe Rogan 2:01 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 2:01 And I have taken responsibility for teaching young people, and it is the case that many people, uh, lost their s- their minds. I mean, lost-

Joe Rogan 2:10 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 2:10 ... their senses. And, and, and the faculty too, incidentally. I mean, you know, ther- it's one thing to talk about people in their, and college-aged people, but then d- you know, the faculty also didn't d- necessarily do what they should've done. But, um, but, uh, the, the, the thing is is that y- you know, m- my commitment, it, my commitment is to, is to teaching more generally, and I don't wanna be defined by that event. I don't want that to become a, the most important thing about me. You know, I have this book-

Joe Rogan 2:35 Sure.

Nicholas Christakis 2:36 ... this book that we're gonna talk about that is an important, uh, f- thing in my life. It instantiates my values. It talks about what I think is important about the world. So, so I'm trying to be balanced about it. Just, it's one thing that happened. I did my best. It's in the past.

Joe Rogan 2:49 Well, let me, let me help out here because you're being so nice about the whole thing. Um, d- so people know what we're talking about. There was a, an incident that was captured on someone's cellphone where you were standing there-

Nicholas Christakis 3:02 There's th- many people. It was an hour of footage-

Joe Rogan 3:04 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 3:04 ... five or six different angles, so a clip went viral.

Joe Rogan 3:06 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 3:06 But I wanna emphasize that there were many people filming that day, and a f- an hour or more of the two or three hours I was out there was available, but yes, go ahead.

Joe Rogan 3:14 Well, I'm glad that you had the courage to do that though, to stand out there and talk to those kids, but some of them were clearly... Uh, there's something that happens when people become extremely self-indulgent when they know that they have this platform and they, uh, have someone who is in a position of autho- authority and they get to hamstring them in front of the public. And that's what I felt was going on.

Nicholas Christakis 3:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:37 Just my understanding of human nature, I knew what she was doing, what she was doing by s- shouting and screaming, "This is our fucking home." You know, "I w- w- you know, we, we're supposed to be safe here." I was like, "Oh, I see what's going on."

Nicholas Christakis 3:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:49 "She's throwing up the flag of virtue for all of her friends-

Nicholas Christakis 3:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:52 ... to see how amazing she was, so she's putting on a show." Uh, people do that. It's, it's n- it's human nature.

Nicholas Christakis 3:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:58 You handled it admirably.

Nicholas Christakis 3:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:59 You, you st- stood there and you, you just listened to her, and you never yelled back, and you never raised your voice, and you, you remained calm. But that sort of environment where the children... And I wanna say children. They're b-

Nicholas Christakis 4:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:15 ... basically adults, but acting like children.

Nicholas Christakis 4:17 But this is one of the ironies that, uh, the people that age, you know, can fight in wars, and-

Joe Rogan 4:22 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 4:22 ... lose their lives.

Joe Rogan 4:23 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 4:23 And so I think it's a, it's a difficult challenge 'cause on the one hand, it's right and appropriate to hold people responsible for their actions, uh, certainly if-

Joe Rogan 4:32 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 4:32 ... you're 20 years old, you're an adult. You're still growing, you're still changing, you're still learning. I am not the same man I was when I was 20. But you have to be responsible (laughs) for your behavior.

Joe Rogan 4:43 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 4:43 And so I don't think you get a total pass either. It's hard.

Joe Rogan 4:46 No, you do not get a total pass. And, you know, for folks who don't have a 20-year-old in their life and don't remember what it was like, you know, you're not a fully formed thing yet. You're, you're filled with chaos-

Nicholas Christakis 5:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 5:01 You have emotions and hormones and-

Nicholas Christakis 5:03 Yes.

Joe Rogan 5:03 ... and then you're at school, and you're probably away from the instructions of your parents for the first time-

Nicholas Christakis 5:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:11 ... and, you know, you're cutting loose and trying out new, new ways of communicating that way. And it's, it's a lot of, it's a mess. But most people felt horrified watching that-

Nicholas Christakis 5:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:22 ... that you were subjected to that when you're being very reasonable. And also, what it all came about was your wife had-

Nicholas Christakis 5:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:29 ... sent out an email saying like, "Hey, maybe it should be okay for someone to wear a fucked up Halloween costume." You know?

Nicholas Christakis 5:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 5:37 "Maybe it's okay to, for someone to dress up like Crazy Horse," you know?

Nicholas Christakis 5:41 Yeah. Well, well, actually, just to be clear, what Erika was saying in that note, uh, was not... Uh, this is a very important intellectual distinction. I think we've, we've lost a lot of nuance in our political lives in general in our country right now-

Joe Rogan 5:52 Hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 5:52 ... and also in the, in the nuance in the way we think about difficult topics. So what Erika was saying was not that necessarily the pe- she was not taking a position on any particular costumes, like this is okay. In fact, many-

Joe Rogan 6:04 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 6:04 ... of the costumes that would have offended the students would offend her. What she was saying was that she didn't think the, uh, university should be telling students what to wear.

Joe Rogan 6:13 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 6:13 She, and she was asking the students, "Do you students real- at this age at Yale, do you really want the university to be sending you guidance on what to wear? Perhaps you should think about that."

Joe Rogan 6:24 Hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 6:24 "You're adults, you're smart, you're in an environment that privileges free expression. Do you really want to grant the power..."... to an institution to tell you how to communicate.

Joe Rogan 6:36 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 6:37 And people then, uh, thought that she was saying that, uh, that she was defending a particular course of action. What she was saying was, um, d- w- d- y- you, uh, d- she was saying, "Do you students really want to surrender that kind of control over your own lives to older adults?" And apparently, many students d- did, actually. They wanted t- th- they did, so-

Joe Rogan 6:59 I don't... believe they did. I think they wanted absolute enforcement of what they thought to be wrong or right.

Nicholas Christakis 7:07 Yes. Yes, I think that's right. So they, they, they, uh, they... d- i- th- th- th- many, but not all of the students, I mean, let's b- let's also be very clear and, m- eh, eh, part of the motivation in, in Erika, uh, writing that note was that, uh, many, uh, many of her students, and in fact, many hundreds of other students, felt infantilized by this policy. And there had been a big build up prior to that event, including an article in the New York Times about these Halloween costume policies around the country, and weren't they kind of ridiculous? And so there was a lo- there was a, kind of a, a, a ferment where people were saying, "Wait a minute, do we really need adults to be told in this institution, especially given its commitments to open expression, uh, what to wear?" And keep in mind that there could be many ways in which a costume that offends you might not, might, I might not know why. So let's say you had been abused by a priest, and you were, uh, that one of the, the rules said you shouldn't, uh, mock religion, for example, was what one of the pr- one of the provisions. So, so a, a, a university-wide email went out signed by 13 people saying, um, you know, "Don't, don't, uh, don't mock people's deeply-held faith traditions." Well, what if, for the sake of argument, you had been a, uh, abused by a priest and you wanted, at Halloween, to dress up as a Catholic priest, for example, um, you know, holding a, a doll? And someone else who had a different, r- who was Catholic was very deeply offended by that. Well, who should adjudicate that? Like w- you know, d- is it the role of the, the institution to come down and say, "Yes, you can express yourself this way. No, you cannot." And so the argument was let the young people learn, let them sort it out themselves, let them learn by talking to each other, expressing themselves, saying, "You know, that hurts my feelings. Here's why it hurts my feelings." And the other person said, "Oh, I understand," or, "I don't understand. I reject that reason." And, and sort of buy into a kind of commitment to free and open expression that actually, I think, ultimately serves the objectives of righteous social progress. If we really wanna do better in our society, or in any society, in my view, we have to create an environment where we can talk to each other, grant good faith, uh, listen carefully, make subtle distinctions, and, and free people up to express what they're thinking so we can have a real marketplace of ideas. Th- that's, you know, m- my commitment, or my belief.

Joe Rogan 9:36 Well, that's a wonderful belief.

Nicholas Christakis 9:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:38 I love it. I mean, that's really, I, I, I couldn't agree with you more, m- more enthusiastically. That's really th- that sounds like the best possible environment-

Nicholas Christakis 9:48 W-

Joe Rogan 9:48 ... for growing up and learning as long as you have someone to sort of moderate, or someone to mediate if things go s- sideways.

Nicholas Christakis 9:56 Y- y- yes, or I don't think you necessarily need a, a third-party mediator, but you do need a shared understanding of, of, uh, core liberal principles. Uh, and these principles do include, as I mentioned earlier, a kind of commitment to free and open expression, a commitment to debate, a commitment to reason. So how are you and I going to come to a better understanding of what is true about the world? We could fight, right? And then the m- the stronger person would decide what's right. We could vote. T- doesn't seem quite right either. You know, if 350 cardinals voted that Galileo was wrong, that didn't make Galileo wrong. Or we could use principles of reason and inquiry to try to appreciate the world together, right? We're looking out at the world and saying, "That's confusing." You know, does the sun... does the Earth revolve around the sun or does the sun revolve around the Earth? Or that's confusing. Should a king have monarch- you know, should a king have ultimate authority in a state? Or is that not how we want to organize a state? So we, you and I, look at the world and debate and think about, okay, and we exchange reasons, and we use e- e- eh- eh- evidence and ways of understanding and studying the world. That, to me, is the only way to truth, actually. Now some people will think that religion is a way to truth, right? They think that the truth is, you know, is God-given, for example. Now, I, I am very sympathetic to religious belief systems, but I don't think that's a way to truth. It's a way to some truths, actually. It's a way to some, some wisdom. But anyway, so that's what our universities and our society... Our universities are officially committed to that. The mottos of our universities are all about free inquiry and pursuit of knowledge. And our country is committed to that in our Bill of Rights, right? We have a commitment to free and open expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and so forth. And, and those ground rules then, in my view, make it possible for us to have a better society. And, and there's more I could talk about. I'm sure we will get into it.

Joe Rogan 11:50 No, I'm sure we will. Those-

Nicholas Christakis 11:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:51 ... again, couldn't agree with you more-

Nicholas Christakis 11:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:52 ... enthusiastically. I just think we need more reasonable conversations-

Nicholas Christakis 11:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 11:57 ... and less screaming and less shouting people down-

Nicholas Christakis 11:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:59 ... and less stopping-

Nicholas Christakis 12:00 Less mob action, I thinks.

Joe Rogan 12:02 Yes, yes. The mob action is v- very weird because I don't remember it.

Nicholas Christakis 12:07 Well, I-

Joe Rogan 12:08 Eh, from the like, of, from the Vietnam War protests to what's going on today, there was this long gap where d- you didn't hear about universities shutting down speech.

Nicholas Christakis 12:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 12:21 This is fairly new. This is within the last, uh, half-decade or so.

Nicholas Christakis 12:25 Well, let's not... Yeah, e- mm- yes-

Joe Rogan 12:28 More?

Nicholas Christakis 12:29 ... yes. I mean, there are always, there's, there's always an undercurrent of tension about this at, at universities and in our society at large. Uh, you know, let's not forget the McCarthy era where you had the right wing was, you know, really interested in shutting down communists.

Joe Rogan 12:42 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 12:42 Like if you were a pro- professor or an artist who had far left political views, you were screwed.

Joe Rogan 12:47 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 12:48 And that was wrong and-

Joe Rogan 12:49 Or even if you'd won- went to a communist meeting-

Nicholas Christakis 12:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 12:52 ... to find out what it was all about.

Nicholas Christakis 12:54 Yes.

Joe Rogan 12:54 Just to educate yourself.

Nicholas Christakis 12:55 Yes. Yes, in fact, that's a great example because that... Like right now, I see a lot of people being criticized for following online people they disagree with.

Joe Rogan 13:04 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 13:04 Which is nuts.

Joe Rogan 13:05 Crazy.

Nicholas Christakis 13:05 (laughs) Like, yeah. So I- I ... Just because I follow someone doesn't mean I agree with what they're saying.

Joe Rogan 13:10 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 13:10 I'm interested to learn, what are they saying?

Joe Rogan 13:12 I'm friends with people I don't agree with.

Nicholas Christakis 13:14 Yeah, me too. (laughs) Yes, me too. I am friends with so many people I don't agree with. I have a friend, I have, I have friends across a political spectrum from the ... I don't have any monarchists among my friends.

Joe Rogan 13:23 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 13:23 (laughs) I don't think I have any friends who are, who are monarchists, but I have friends from the far right to far left. I have a friend who really believes, he's so libertarian he thinks there should be private ownership of roads. Uh-

Joe Rogan 13:33 Whoa.

Nicholas Christakis 13:34 Yeah. I mean, he's-

Joe Rogan 13:35 That's ridiculous.

Nicholas Christakis 13:35 Yeah, I think that's ridiculous and we debate like-

Joe Rogan 13:38 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 13:38 He, you know-

Joe Rogan 13:38 He must be white. (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 13:40 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, he is actually.

Joe Rogan 13:42 Ah! (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 13:42 Uh, yeah. My wife, my wife says she would just once like to meet a poor libertarian, you know?

Joe Rogan 13:47 Yes, they don't exist.

Nicholas Christakis 13:47 A poor female libertarian, yes.

Joe Rogan 13:49 No.

Nicholas Christakis 13:49 Um-

Joe Rogan 13:50 Yeah, that's a ridiculous position.

Nicholas Christakis 13:52 I think so, but-

Joe Rogan 13:52 Private roads, get the fuck out of here.

Nicholas Christakis 13:53 Yeah. Okay, but so here's the thing.

Joe Rogan 13:55 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 13:55 But okay, how are we gonna persuade this man that he's ... He also thinks somewhat less controversially, it's a harder decision. He also thinks that you, you shouldn't be, you should be able to sell your b- your organs. You know, we should have a, a market in kidneys, uh, that you, you know, you, right now-

Joe Rogan 14:11 While you're alive?

Nicholas Christakis 14:13 Yeah, you can give away one of your kidneys.

Joe Rogan 14:14 But, well, but, yeah, you can. Uh, oh.

Nicholas Christakis 14:16 Uh, and we allow you to give it away, but we don't allow you to sell it.

Joe Rogan 14:19 Wasn't there an instance, Jamie, that you were telling me about, about a young guy who sold his kidney to get an iPhone? Was that in another country?

Nicholas Christakis 14:25 In another country.

Joe Rogan 14:26 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 14:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 14:27 And wound up having an infection-

Nicholas Christakis 14:29 Yes.

Joe Rogan 14:29 ... and lost his second kidney as well?

Nicholas Christakis 14:31 Yes, and then would need to be on di- Yes, look, these things-

Joe Rogan 14:34 Yeah, for an iPhone.

Nicholas Christakis 14:34 Yeah, and these things, yeah, these things happen and they're-

Joe Rogan 14:37 Yeah, yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 14:37 But in the United States, it's prohibited. You can't do that. You also can't sell your blood in the United States. There's a reason for that.

Joe Rogan 14:42 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 14:43 Uh, and that's a good reason, a good public health reason.

Joe Rogan 14:45 Yeah, because people who wanna sell their blood are usually fucked up.

Nicholas Christakis 14:48 Correct.

Joe Rogan 14:48 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 14:49 And so it's not a safe, the blood supply-

Joe Rogan 14:50 Yeah. (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 14:51 ... is safer in countries where you, where people-

Joe Rogan 14:53 Voluntarily.

Nicholas Christakis 14:53 Yeah-

Joe Rogan 14:53 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 14:53 ... or altruistically doing it.

Joe Rogan 14:55 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 14:55 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 14:55 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 14:56 But the kidney is a harder case. Anyway, he believes that he, he, he ... Anyway, so I love debating him and I learn from him.

Joe Rogan 15:02 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 15:02 Like recently, he said to me, and I, and I think I have a better answer. He said he doesn't understand why blackmail is illegal. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:09 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Nicholas Christakis 15:12 But the point is, the point is-

Joe Rogan 15:13 Those anarchists, anarchists and libertarians, all of them need their asses kicked.

Nicholas Christakis 15:18 Right, well-

Joe Rogan 15:18 They really do.

Nicholas Christakis 15:19 Well, the, this is, but this is a far le-

Joe Rogan 15:20 Settle down.

Nicholas Christakis 15:20 Exactly. But the thing is-

Joe Rogan 15:22 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 15:22 Exactly. These are like, and I think any kind of c- extreme ideology, but the point is we can learn. There is some wisdom almost anywhere, right?

Joe Rogan 15:31 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 15:31 And, and the problem comes from excess expression. You know, the, the, the problem comes from, um, i- y- you know, there's, there's, there, there, there, i- e- y- th- th- the, the, the problem comes, you know, when we take things to extremes and we get to, you know, private ownership of roads.

Joe Rogan 15:46 Yes. Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 15:47 Uh, but anyway.

Joe Rogan 15:48 And by the way, if you're an anarchist or a libertarian, I'm kidding.

Nicholas Christakis 15:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:51 I don't really think you would get your ass kicked. I'm just joking around. But it is a, it-

Nicholas Christakis 15:55 You're gonna have a mob after you now. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:57 But it's a position that I always feel-

Nicholas Christakis 15:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:58 ... like could be remedied with psychedelic drugs.

Nicholas Christakis 16:00 It could be, yes.

Joe Rogan 16:01 I really feel like it al-

Nicholas Christakis 16:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:02 ... almost always could be. Like I get, uh, you know, I just, I get where they're coming from. I understand personal responsibility, the idea that the free market should decide. I get all that.

Nicholas Christakis 16:12 Yes.

Joe Rogan 16:13 But we already accept that there's some things that we agree on that we should all chip in to pay for.

Nicholas Christakis 16:20 Yeah, like-

Joe Rogan 16:21 Like roads.

Nicholas Christakis 16:22 Yeah, or like assessments of-

Joe Rogan 16:23 Utilities.

Nicholas Christakis 16:24 Well, yeah, or like assessment of drug purity, for example.

Joe Rogan 16:26 Sure.

Nicholas Christakis 16:26 So the very rich could set up a laboratory in their basement, so whenever a doctor prescribes a medication, they could see if the drugs are safe-

Joe Rogan 16:33 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 16:33 ... and pure.

Joe Rogan 16:34 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 16:34 The rest of us pay taxes.

Joe Rogan 16:36 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 16:36 And we say we're all gonna pitch in together and we're gonna have the FDA, and they are going to certify drug purity so that when I go to my pharmacist and buy a drug-

Joe Rogan 16:44 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 16:45 ... the, the pharmaceutical company isn't killing me by shoddy manufacturing practices.

Joe Rogan 16:49 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 16:50 So I think that's right. We get together and, as a free society, and we, (laughs) we do these things. We, we want a non-corrupt judiciary, right?

Joe Rogan 16:58 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 16:58 We don't want people to be able to bribe judges.

Joe Rogan 17:00 For sure.

Nicholas Christakis 17:00 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 17:01 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 17:01 So there are certain foundational elements of our civilization, of our society which are crucial to our well-being. And one of them is the capacity to openly debate ideas and to expose ourselves to ideas across the gamut. And I'm not just talking about political ideas, I'm talking about scientific ideas.

Joe Rogan 17:19 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 17:20 So how are we gonna win the battle against anti-vaxxers? Like how are we going to persuade people who believe that vaccines kill people, for which there's no scientific evidence, that they're wrong? We could imprison them, right? That's force. Uh, we could vote, which is sort of what we're doing. We're saying, "Okay, well, you're a minority group who believes these things, so we're not gonna allow you to control policy." Or we could try to win the battle of ideas and persuade them. Ultimately, that's the only path that's to, in my view, that gets us to where we wanna be.

Joe Rogan 17:49 Yeah. And just an honest assessment of the actual data, like what we really know and understanding how these scientists come-

Nicholas Christakis 17:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:57 ... to these conclusions. But the, the problem is these echo chambers where people get involved with online-

Nicholas Christakis 18:02 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:02 ... that magnify, uh, all of these beliefs, and you get radicalized. I mean, I've seen it-

Nicholas Christakis 18:09 Also true.

Joe Rogan 18:09 People get involved in these Facebook groups, these anti-vax face-

Nicholas Christakis 18:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:13 ... Facebook groups or, you know, all, all sorts of different things. I mean, that's how these flat Earth people get going.

Nicholas Christakis 18:18 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:19 They, they b- start listening only to people that are involved in this circle. They don't have a, a greater understanding of the science involved-

Nicholas Christakis 18:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:27 ... and d-

Nicholas Christakis 18:27 Did you just see, I just saw online there's a, uh, a cruise to the flat or cruise for flat Earther. I don't know if you saw it?

Joe Rogan 18:33 To the ice wall.

Nicholas Christakis 18:34 Yeah, the ice wall. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:36 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 18:37 (laughs) I thought-

Joe Rogan 18:39 (yawning sound)

Nicholas Christakis 18:39 (laughs) I thought, that's a new wrinkle, 'cause the-

Joe Rogan 18:41 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 18:41 ... old flat-Earthers used to think that the water was shown falling off the disc of the earth, you know-

Joe Rogan 18:45 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 18:45 ... like the e- edge of the earth, it was just a disc?

Joe Rogan 18:47 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 18:48 Now, the new theory that there's an ice wall actually, it, is, it's kind of not falsifiable, b- that is to say you, you could get on a cruise and sail to the edge of the earth, and you would find a wall of ice there. So you, Antarctica, or the-

Joe Rogan 18:59 Sure.

Nicholas Christakis 18:59 So you think, "Ah! It's flat." Uh, in other words, they, they, they have redefined their theory to, to make it so that you can't disprove it.

Joe Rogan 19:08 Mm.

Nicholas Christakis 19:09 Right? You don't get to an edge. There's no edge. There's an ice wall, is what they're saying now. Anyway.

Joe Rogan 19:13 Are you aware of #spaceisfake?

Nicholas Christakis 19:16 No, I'm not. I have to say-

Joe Rogan 19:18 Neeeed-

Nicholas Christakis 19:18 ... I've not exposed myself to that set of ideas. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:20 Check it out. Space, there's a bunch of people that believe that space is fake.

Nicholas Christakis 19:24 Okay.

Joe Rogan 19:24 That it's not real.

Nicholas Christakis 19:26 Okay.

Joe Rogan 19:26 That there's no real space.

Nicholas Christakis 19:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:28 And that there's like, lights up there.

Nicholas Christakis 19:31 Oh.

Joe Rogan 19:31 And that this is, uh, some sort of a, uh, uh, plan by Satan-

Nicholas Christakis 19:36 Oh.

Joe Rogan 19:37 ... to, uh, it's, a lot of it's very Biblical.

Nicholas Christakis 19:38 I see.

Joe Rogan 19:38 Which is really interesting. A lot of the flat Earth stuff is very Biblical.

Nicholas Christakis 19:41 That's interesting.

Joe Rogan 19:41 It has to do with the firmament.

Nicholas Christakis 19:43 Oh.

Joe Rogan 19:43 And they use descriptions and depictions from the Bible.

Nicholas Christakis 19:46 Oh.

Joe Rogan 19:47 Yeah, it's super bizarre, and what's really bizarre is when you listen to the YouTube videos, or these discussions that are done by people that use words that are real, they string them together correctly, they have like, full sentences, they appear to be articulate, it's very confusing if you're a dummy. If you li-

Nicholas Christakis 20:06 (sighs) (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:06 You listen to those, you go like, "Wow, this guy's making a lot of sense." He's not, but it sounds like he's making a lot of sense 'cause he's using all these words that are correctly used. There's no ums, he's saying it articulately, there's a, like, e- everything seems like, like, "Oh my goodness-"

Nicholas Christakis 20:22 It should make sense.

Joe Rogan 20:22 "... this man is exposing."

Nicholas Christakis 20:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:23 "He's exposing the reality." But it's not, it's just fucking nonsense.

Nicholas Christakis 20:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 20:27 And if you don't know any better-

Nicholas Christakis 20:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:28 ... and that's all you listen to, that's where your head will go. The same with the anti-vax movement. If you only listen to these anti-vaxxers, they're making so much sense, like, oh my God, it's giving everybody, um, b- all sorts of ailments, uh-

Nicholas Christakis 20:40 Yes.

Joe Rogan 20:41 ... you're, you're on the spectrum, autism...

Nicholas Christakis 20:41 And, and they have a theory of how it does that, which is not, it uses, as you say, scientific words, but it's actually not scientifically correct.

Joe Rogan 20:48 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 20:48 That, you know, it does this, which then does that, which then does that, they lay out a kind of causal chain-

Joe Rogan 20:52 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 20:52 ... which is false.

Joe Rogan 20:53 And then there's a problem of nuance and perspective, because there's so many people that get vaccinated. There's hundreds of millions of people in this country, billions of people worldwide, and then there are instances, rare occurrences-

Nicholas Christakis 21:05 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:05 ... where people have real issues-

Nicholas Christakis 21:07 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:08 ... with vaccinations.

Nicholas Christakis 21:09 Well, there e- there are some where they have real issues, so for example, there's some vaccines which are known to cause certain neurological conditions, rarely, one out of a million, or one out of 100,000 vaccinations.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 21:19 More commonly is the situation in which you have vaccination is so common, everyone is getting vaccinated, and often, that occurs near to an occurrence of some other rare condition-

Joe Rogan 21:29 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 21:29 ... and people associate the two.

Joe Rogan 21:31 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 21:31 They think, "Oh, because of the vaccine this happened." No, it's a coincidence. So...

Joe Rogan 21:35 Either or, yes. There's both, and the e- and there's also, you know, if it's one out of a million, and you have 300 million people-

Nicholas Christakis 21:40 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 21:41 ... you have three million-

Nicholas Christakis 21:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:43 ... you know, I mean, o- one million people with an issue is a big deal.

Nicholas Christakis 21:47 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:47 Right? With 300 million people-

Nicholas Christakis 21:49 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:50 ... you, you easily could have 300 really big cases.

Nicholas Christakis 21:55 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:56 You know, 300 cases where people-

Nicholas Christakis 21:58 Of something, yes.

Joe Rogan 21:58 ... died from vaccines.

Nicholas Christakis 21:59 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:59 And then you bring those in front of people and say, "Oh my God," and then there's this one, and this one, and this one, and there's 298 more-

Nicholas Christakis 22:05 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:05 ... and you're like, "Holy shit."

Nicholas Christakis 22:07 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:07 "all these people are dying from vaccines?"

Nicholas Christakis 22:09 Yes, yes.

Joe Rogan 22:09 You know, it doesn't feel good if it's your child, but-

Nicholas Christakis 22:12 Correct.

Joe Rogan 22:13 ... when, when we look at the greater perspective of humanity, and you say, "Well listen, y- you don't wanna bring back smallpox. You don't want your child to get measles." Babies can get measles when they can't even be vaccinated for it. This is one of the reasons why we need to vaccinate children.

Nicholas Christakis 22:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:25 To make sure they don't get measles.

Nicholas Christakis 22:27 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:27 This is a serious fucking problem.

Nicholas Christakis 22:29 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:29 And a serious problem that scientists have labored for untold decades-

Nicholas Christakis 22:34 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:34 ... to try to cure.

Nicholas Christakis 22:34 It's a triumph of our civilization that we can actually-

Joe Rogan 22:36 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 22:36 ... stop these diseases.

Joe Rogan 22:38 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 22:38 Yes, and save children's lives.

Joe Rogan 22:40 I had a woman yesterday who is an expert, she's a medical historian, an expert in Victorian era surgery, uh, Lindsay Fitzharris, and she wrote this great book called The Butchering Art, and in it, there's all these images sh- she, one of them she brought up of what smallpox actually looks like when people get it.

Nicholas Christakis 22:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:57 It's horrible.

Nicholas Christakis 22:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:58 And it just covers people's bodies.

Nicholas Christakis 23:00 Yes.

Joe Rogan 23:00 And we've eradicated it.

Nicholas Christakis 23:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 23:01 Like, scientists-

Nicholas Christakis 23:02 It's painful and you die from it, yes.

Joe Rogan 23:03 Yes. People have ac- it's actually gone.

Nicholas Christakis 23:05 Yes.

Joe Rogan 23:05 We don't, we don't get it anymore in this country.

Nicholas Christakis 23:07 Yes, yes, yes. (laughs) Anywhere, yes.

Joe Rogan 23:07 It's fucking incredible.

Nicholas Christakis 23:08 Yes.

Joe Rogan 23:09 I mean, it's credible.

Nicholas Christakis 23:10 Yes.

Joe Rogan 23:10 Um, but that's obviously neither here nor there. So, (gavel sound) this book, uh, Blueprint: The Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society. When did you start this?

Nicholas Christakis 23:20 About nine or ten years ago.

Joe Rogan 23:21 Hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 23:22 Uh, and I, at the time in my lab we were doing research on friendship, we were doing research on, on why people have friends. It, it's actually, it's not, it's not difficult to provide an account for why we have sex with each other, um, many animals, m- most animals are s- well, I don't know if it's most, but, uh, uh, uh, animals either reproduce sexually or asexually, and m- most animals, I'm trying to remember now what the relative proportion is. Anyway, I'ma say most, most animals reproduce sexually, and it's not hard to provide an account for how, um, for why, uh, we, why sex originated, why we reproduce sexually. It's not hard to provide an account for why we are choosy in our mates, or why we, uh, are careful in who we have sex with. But human beings don't just mate with each other, we befriend each other. We form long-term, non-reproductive unions to other individuals to whom we're not related. Why? That's very rare in the animal kingdom. Very few creatures do this. We do it, certain other primates, elephants, certain whales, and that's mostly it. So, the question is, why? So I became very interested in my lab in trying to understand the deep origins of friendship. Why would natural selection have equipped us with this capacity? And that set the stage then for an exploring all kinds of other things in our lives, like why we love each other, for example. Why do we, why do we, we, when we have, uh, sex with a, a person, we tend to become attached to them, we develop emotional sentiment, uh, about them. That's not an essential to having sex, yet we do that. And then I became interested in other kinds of good things, like not just love and friendship, but cooperation, and teaching. Teaching is another crazy thing.... we take it for granted that we teach each other. But think about this, most animals are able to learn. So a little fish in the ocean learns that if it swims to the light, it finds more food there. So the fish then learns to, to, to be tropic, to, to move towards the light. Uh, and that's individual learning. Some animals, uh, develop what's called social learning. Social learning is really efficient, so if I put my hand in the fire, I learn that I burned myself, I pull my hand out. I've learned something. I paid a price and I learned something. I could observe you putting your hand in the fire. You pay all the price, but I gain most of the knowledge. It's almost as good. I learn, "Oh, people, you shouldn't put your hand in the fire. I saw that Joe-"

Joe Rogan 25:44 Hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 25:44 "... put his hand in the fire." So social learning is super efficient, learning from others. But we take it to an even further level. We don't just passively observe other, uh, other animals of our own species and learn from them, we teach each other. That is very rare in the animal kingdom, where one animal sets out to teach another animal something. So the book is, uh, is, is, uh, is about the evolutionary origins of a good society. It's also a kind of, uh, response, a kind of pushback to a, a long tradition in the sciences of attention to the bad parts of our nature. You know, uh, scientists, in my view, have for too long been looking at the origins of, of murder, and tribalism, and selfishness, and, uh, mendacity. Um, but, but I think the bright side has been denied the attention it deserves, because we have also evolved to love, and to befriend each other, and to be kind to each other, and to cooperate, and to teach each other, and all these good things. And I'll shut up. (laughs) And, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 26:47 (laughs) Please don't.

Nicholas Christakis 26:47 Uh, uh, no. And, uh, and here's the thing. Here's the sort of one way to think about this. This must have been the case that the benefits of a connected life outweighed the costs. We would not be living socially if my exposure to you harmed me, uh, on net. In other words, if I came near you and you, uh, were violent to me, you killed me, or you gave me misinformation, you told me lies about the world, then my connection to you would ultimately harm me, that I should be better off living as an isolated animal. So animals that come together to live socially, their, the benefits of that must outweigh the costs. My living, us living as a group. So all this attention to the ways in which our interactions are bad, that we kill each other, that we steal from each other, that we lie to each other, that we have tribalism, and all of these traits, which we do. Every century is replete with horrors. I'm not like Pangloss, like I don't think like, you know, Pollyanna, like, "Oh, everything's great." That's not me. But what is me is a kind of optimistic focus on the good parts of our, of human nature, and the recognition that those good parts must, in toto, overwhelm the bad parts.

Joe Rogan 28:03 Well, they certainly have to. There's so many human beings. I mean, it's-

Nicholas Christakis 28:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:07 ... obvious that this is working.

Nicholas Christakis 28:09 Yes. (laughs) Yes!

Joe Rogan 28:09 You know? I mean, we have propagated, we're everywhere.

Nicholas Christakis 28:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:12 We're on every single patch of land that's occupiable.

Nicholas Christakis 28:15 In fact, you're, you're exactly right. It, the argument, and that's discussed in the book, the way we have achieved the kind of social conquest of the Earth, the way our species is, is, has spread out to occupy every niche, which is also very rare. Most animals live in one, you know, grizzlies live in, in this part of the world.

Joe Rogan 28:32 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 28:32 They don't live in Amazonia. And, uh, you know, polar bears live in this part of the world. They don't live in, in, uh, Arizona, et cetera. So, so, uh, the, but our species lives everywhere, and the way we have come to be able to do that is by the capacity to have culture, to teach and learn from each other, to accumulate knowledge. So in the book, I talk about lots of this, uh, f- famous set of stories called The Lost European Explorer Files, about how European explorers are, uh, lost, they lose their supplies, they wind up dying, and, um, but they're in an environment in which other people thrive and s- and survive, because they have learned to, how to live there. So we've spread out around the world. And then there'll, there's a chapter in the book at the beginning about shipwrecks. So, so I have this, uh, should I go on?

Joe Rogan 29:23 Sure, please.

Nicholas Christakis 29:23 Yeah. So I have this, uh, so I have this, uh, th- so, so what I'd like to do is, what I try to set out to do in the beginning of the book is I say, look, it's clear that our genes shape the structure and function of our bodies. It is increasingly clear that our genes also strake- shape the structure and function of our minds, our behaviors. Whether you're risk-averse, uh, how intelligent you are, uh, uh, whether you, uh, have wanderlust. Uh, these properties are properties that depend in part on your genes. But it's also clear to me, and that's what the book argues is that our genes shape not just the structure and function of our bodies, not just the structure and function of our minds, but also the structure and function of our societies. And to really prove that, what we would need is something known as the forbidden experiment. And the forbidden experiment is an experiment in which we took a group of babies who had never been taught anything, who are acultural, had no culture, and stranded them on an island, and left them on their own to see what kind of society they would make when they grew up. You know, how would they organize themselves socially? Is there kind of an innate society that human beings are, are pre-wired to make, in an essence? Now, obviously that's unethical and cruel, but actually, monarchs for thousands of years have contemplated this experiment. So Herodotus writes in, about how one of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs wanted to know what kind of language would, w- what was a natural language we had in us that we would speak if we were not taught a language? So this pharaoh, it is said, took two babies and gave them to a mute shepherd to raise to see how did the children speak when they grew up. And, uh, and, and, and, uh, uh, Emperor Akbar attempted this, there was a couple of European kings that attempted this.... obviously we can't actually do this, so what I do in the book is I look at a series of other approximations of that, and one chapter is devoted to looking at shipwrecks, groups of men typically, but sometimes men and women, who between 1500 and 1900, there were 9,000 shipwrecks, many more thousands of ships were lost at sea. And in 20 of those cases, we found 20 cases where, uh, at least 19 people were stranded for at least two months, and, uh, you know, here's a, there's a, a kind of, um, here's a map of the, uh, well here's one crew I can tell you about, but here's a map of the, of the shipwrecks, like these are the-

Joe Rogan 31:44 Oh wow.

Nicholas Christakis 31:45 ... the all over the world, uh, where they occurred, and, uh, when they occurred and how many people there were, and, uh, and so then I, I, uh, I got all the original accounts from the sailors, uh, from the people on the wrecks, and all contemporary archaeological excavations of those wrecks wh- where they had been excavated, and, um, and tried to understand what kind of society did these isolated crews actually wind up making. And there were some amazing stories that were, uh, uh, uh, that I found in there.

Joe Rogan 32:15 So, they stayed for at least two months.

Nicholas Christakis 32:17 Yes.

Joe Rogan 32:17 How many of them actually established a real civilization? How many were stuck forever?

Nicholas Christakis 32:21 Well they didn't ... No, no one was stuck forever, uh, most of those crews were eventually ... In fact, all of those crews had at least one survivor because if they had all died, uh, then I wouldn't be able to know about them.

Joe Rogan 32:31 Right, you would have never got the story.

Nicholas Christakis 32:31 But there's the one famous case in which these s- sailors, uh, were stranded in, near Australia, I think somewhere in the Pacific, and they managed to catch a big petrel, one of those huge birds that, you know, like a condor.

Joe Rogan 32:43 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 32:44 And, uh, and they, they, they put a little note in a little tiny bottle and they tied it to its feet, and this petrel flew thousands of miles and landed in Australia, and was found with a note indicating where the i- stranded sailors were.

Joe Rogan 32:59 Whoa.

Nicholas Christakis 32:59 And a ship was sent to go find the men, and it got there but they had all died, they were all gone, so they (laughs) used this-

Joe Rogan 33:07 Wow.

Nicholas Christakis 33:07 ... this, uh, this bird, so, so-

Joe Rogan 33:09 They should have ate the bird.

Nicholas Christakis 33:10 Well no, they didn't eat the bird, they put the-

Joe Rogan 33:11 They should've.

Nicholas Christakis 33:12 No, (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 33:12 They'd still be alive.

Nicholas Christakis 33:15 I think if you had that choice, you would communicate rather than eat, Joe, I think.

Joe Rogan 33:19 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 33:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 33:20 For a little bit.

Nicholas Christakis 33:22 Well, until the very end, yes.

Joe Rogan 33:23 Then I started eating those birds.

Nicholas Christakis 33:23 Yes, yes. But, uh-

Joe Rogan 33:25 Did they starve to death? Did they know what happened to them?

Nicholas Christakis 33:26 We don't know, nobody knows, but the point is that we have to have a, for me to be able to describe what happened, we needed at least one survivor.

Joe Rogan 33:32 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 33:32 And often m- there were many cases where everyone survived, I mean there was one pair of cases that I, was amazing to me. In 1846, in, uh, South Auckland Islands, just north of Antarctica, south of New Zealand, uh, the, uh, the Grafton was wrecked on the southern part of the island, I can't remember how big the island was, I, it's in the book, maybe let's say 90 miles long or something, or 20 miles long, I think it's 20 miles long. On the southern part of the island, uh, five men are wrecked on the Grafton, and, uh, on the northern part of the island, the Invercauld wrecks, 19 men are wrecked on the Invercauld. Uh, all the Grafton crew survives. The, and both pe- both crews were on the island at the same time, they never encountered each other, they're struggling for survival, it's like an, like an experiment, like who's gonna win?

Joe Rogan 34:24 Right. Survivor.

Nicholas Christakis 34:24 I'm tempted to say fear factor. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:26 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 34:27 And, uh, (laughs) and, and the question is who's gonna survive and how and why. Everyone on the Grafton crew survives, and 16 of the 19 men on the, uh, on the Invercauld crew die, and there's also cannibalism in that crew, so it's a, it's a very-

Joe Rogan 34:41 Oh.

Nicholas Christakis 34:41 It's a very different outcome for various reasons. So anyway, so the, the point is that in the book, I start with a series of stories about how people come together to make, attempt to make new civilizations. I use the example of unintentional communities with, uh, with shipwrecks, I have, I looked then at intentional communities like communes, and, um, and, uh, kibbutzes in Israel, and, uh, 1970s communes in the United States, uh, 19th century communes in the United States. Actually going back to Roman times, there have always been groups of people who've said, "Society's fucked up. I'm gonna go and we're gonna make it again, you know, we're gonna start afresh." Um, I look at settlements in Antarctica of, uh, scientists, I look at the Pitcairn, you know, the mutiny on the Bounty, I look at the Shackleton expedition. Many, many cases of stranded, isolated groups of people trying to make a new social order. And then I also use data from, um, experiments we do in my lab, we have this software where tens of thousands of people have come and played these games. We, we can create these temporary, artificial societies of real people, where people come and spend an hour or two and we, with this god-like way can engineer the society. We can have a lot of inequality or little inequality, or various other features, and then we can observe what happens, and I look at all of that data, all those stories, and say, "Look, there is a deep and fundamental way that no matter what, human beings, uh, make a society." There are underlying, fundamental principles about society which are as innate as the fact that you have two kidneys, you know, most people, almost everyone. Or your pancreas makes insulin.

Joe Rogan 36:28 But they're very different all throughout the world, right?

Nicholas Christakis 36:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:31 I mean, there's totalitarian societies-

Nicholas Christakis 36:34 Yeah, no, no s-

Joe Rogan 36:35 ... there's-

Nicholas Christakis 36:35 No, so here's the point.

Joe Rogan 36:36 No?

Nicholas Christakis 36:37 Yeah, so here's what, here's the argument. You look around the world-

Joe Rogan 36:42 Okay.

Nicholas Christakis 36:42 ... and, um, the way, the example I give is that yes, there's huge cultural variation around the world, just like you said, totalitarian societies, there's, people have different foods and they have different ways of dressing and there's enormous cultural variation, and it's marvelous and interesting and obvious to anybody. But I think we're missing the forest from the trees. To me, this is like you and I are sitting on a plane, and we look at a, a hill that's 300 feet and 900 feet, and we say those are very different hills.But actually, if we took a step back, we would see that we're on, we were on a plateau, and one was a mountain that was 10,300 feet, and another was a mountain that was 10,900 feet. And actually, there, there are these m- much more deep and fundamental plate tectonic forces that are creating these two mountains that are very similar, but we are just focused on the superficial top. So the argument in the book is that everywhere in the world, people have friendship, people love their partners, people cooperate, people teach each other. These are fundamental common principles shared by everyone. Even though there's also a lot of variation.

Joe Rogan 37:45 Even in a place like North Korea?

Nicholas Christakis 37:47 Yes. Now North Korea, th- that state... So totalitarian states apply huge cultural pressure to suppress this innate tendency. It's like, it's like a religious, you need a lot of belief in God to suppress your innate desire to have sex, right?

Joe Rogan 38:05 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 38:06 So you can have a belief system that's very powerful that kind of prevents you, squashes what would otherwise be a kind of inescapable inclination you have. So totalitarian regimes, and this is discussed in the book too, they are very threatened by the institution of the family. They're threatened. You need to owe your loyalty to the state, not to your family, not to your friends. And so they have a series of institutions that, you know, everyone is Comrade, everyone gets called Comrade, for example. Or, or, uh, they're, th- a lotta, a lotta times... Well, I won't, I don't wanna, I don't know if I wanna speak at the state level. Let me, let me take it down a notch to communes. So if you think about communes, if you're gonna make a commune of people and you want them to feel real loyalty to the commune, one way you can do that is y- you want to, uh, reduce the commitment people have to their partners, let's say, their, their mates. And in order to do that, you can go to one of two extremes. Either you can prohibit sex, like the Shakers, and you say, "Okay, no one's gonna have sex with anyone, because we're all in a commune and we all love each other, and we're not gonna have special love for particular people." Or you could go to the other extreme and you can have polyamory, say, "Everyone's gonna have sex with everyone else." Once again, you see, that subverts the special relationship that people might form with particular individuals. And so both of those strategies, even though they're opposite, are attempting to do the same thing, which is to break down real relationships, face-to-face relationship between individuals, so that you can have a commitment to this higher group.

Joe Rogan 39:41 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 39:41 And that's what totalitarian states also face the same dilemma, and that's also why, incidentally, a lot of those states try to, um, re- uh, reduce gender differences, right? They, like, you know, the Mao jacket, the w- men and women all were wearing the simi- similar kind of attire, for instance, uh, because they want to have people see themselves as interchangeable and not as individuals, and relationships not be particular.

Joe Rogan 40:06 Did you study cults?

Nicholas Christakis 40:08 A little bit. Um, not a lot. Uh, there's some, I talk a little bit in the book about cults, but I don't really need to get t- to cults in order to make the arguments that I'm making.

Joe Rogan 40:19 No, I mean, not even-

Nicholas Christakis 40:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:20 ... just to make arguments, just to, to compare, th- 'cause that is essentially like, in particularly the Rajneesh, uh, Cult-

Nicholas Christakis 40:27 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 40:27 ... Oregon, the Wild Wild West-

Nicholas Christakis 40:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:29 ... or Wild Wild Country documentary on Netflix. Did you see that?

Nicholas Christakis 40:32 No, I haven't.

Joe Rogan 40:32 It's fantastic. They essentially, uh, took over an entire town and started busing in homeless people to vote, so that they can-

Nicholas Christakis 40:40 Oh, I read about th-

Joe Rogan 40:41 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 40:41 I know about this, yes.

Joe Rogan 40:42 It's really quite amazing.

Nicholas Christakis 40:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 40:43 And th- what they did was really weird, you know? I mean, for, uh, there's moments in the documentary where you're like, "Wow, maybe they're onto something."

Nicholas Christakis 40:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:51 And then of course, it goes completely sideways.

Nicholas Christakis 40:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:53 They wind up poisoning people.

Nicholas Christakis 40:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:54 And it's chaos.

Nicholas Christakis 40:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:56 But I am absolutely fascinated by those types of environments where people do decide they're gonna branch off from regular, they don't, they're unsatisfied with regular civilization. They're gonna all move to some location.

Nicholas Christakis 41:10 Yes. That's a, uh, that's a primitive and ancient impulse. Like I was saying, people have been doing that for, since time immemorial. S-

Joe Rogan 41:16 It's how America got started.

Nicholas Christakis 41:18 Yes. (laughs) Yes, yes. It's "Screw this."

Joe Rogan 41:20 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 41:20 "You know, I'm going over there to start again."

Joe Rogan 41:23 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 41:23 But again and again, when people do that, they keep expressing some of these fundamental beliefs. It's-

Joe Rogan 41:27 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 41:27 Yes. It's like saying... Yes, anyway, go on.

Joe Rogan 41:30 No, please.

Nicholas Christakis 41:30 No, no, no, I don't have anything to s- add. I mean, I just was reinforcing what you said. But yes, that's right. I mean, I-

Joe Rogan 41:35 Well, I'm always fascinated by people that are unhappy with the current state of affairs. They don't like the way society feels to them, they don't feel like they belong, and they wanna try somewhere else. I mean, a- and what, what's really interesting to me is the last time someone did this as a country, as far as I know, is the United States.

Nicholas Christakis 41:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:53 It really is... It's f- I mean, it's also very unique that this is one of the weirdest countries in the world, in terms of our ability to freely express ourselves, and-

Nicholas Christakis 42:02 Well, we are-

Joe Rogan 42:03 ... we have more guns, we're-

Nicholas Christakis 42:04 Well, well, the thing about America, it's just, like, the, the American experiment th- would have, i- is about the fact that anyone can be an American. Uh, my parents immigrated from Greece, uh, I was raised in this country, you know, uh, I... To be an American means to buy into a certain set of principles like the Bill of Rights. And, uh, many other countries are very xenophobic, you know? You, you can't become a Japanese. It's, you can't become, you can't be nationalized in Japan. I mean, you can, but it's extremely difficult and rare. Uh, so it's a very homogeneous, uh, country. Switzerland is another country, it's very difficult to become Swiss. You can't be nationalized as a Swiss cit- I mean, you can, but it's extremely difficult and rare. So, um, but the United States, you know, we, we say you are an American if you, uh, uh, from all, the whole world, you're welcome. Bring us your tired, your, you know, uh, the famous saying on the f- on the, your... I forgot the saying, it's very poetic-

Joe Rogan 42:54 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 42:54 ... on the bottom of the, of the, um, Statue of Liberty. Uh, you're wretched, you're, you're-

Joe Rogan 43:00 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 43:00 ... forlorn, whatever it is. Um, and you can come to this, these shores and make your life a- anew, and, um, and all you need to do to be an American is to, um, buy into a commitment to constitutional governance, democratic rule, Bill of Rights, and these principles. Now-... we should note that there were millions of people that were brought as slaves involuntarily to these shores. We don't always realize our best virtues. We, you know, allow people to come, but, like the Irish, and treat them as second-class citizens, or the Italians, or the Greeks even. Um, you know, we, we don't always do that, but, but the idea that you're putting on the table, which I think is correct, is that you can be an American. This is a special, unusual experiment. You can't reinvent yourself quite that way, in, to my knowledge, in any other, uh, colony or country in the world.

Joe Rogan 43:49 It's why it's one of the weirdest things that this is a country where anti-immigrant sentiments are running rampant.

Nicholas Christakis 43:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:56 (coughs) When the entire foundation-

Nicholas Christakis 43:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:58 ... of the country is based on immigration.

Nicholas Christakis 43:59 Yes.

Joe Rogan 44:00 That's the only way people got here if you're not a Native American.

Nicholas Christakis 44:02 Yes. It was taken from the Native Americans-

Joe Rogan 44:04 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 44:04 ... and everyone since then is an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant. That's correct.

Joe Rogan 44:08 And even the Native Americans came here-

Nicholas Christakis 44:09 They came 20,000, yes.

Joe Rogan 44:10 ... from somewhere else.

Nicholas Christakis 44:10 Yep. Yeah, absolutely right.

Joe Rogan 44:12 The whole thing is crazy.

Nicholas Christakis 44:12 Yes.

Joe Rogan 44:13 The whole thing is crazy.

Nicholas Christakis 44:14 Yes.

Joe Rogan 44:14 It's, it's just, and it's such a unique environment for expression.

Nicholas Christakis 44:19 Wow.

Joe Rogan 44:19 I mean, there's really no other country that has as free expression.

Nicholas Christakis 44:24 Even the Brits don't, that's right.

Joe Rogan 44:25 Yeah. And Canada certainly doesn't.

Nicholas Christakis 44:27 Correct.

Joe Rogan 44:27 And they're our neighbors, you know?

Nicholas Christakis 44:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 44:29 It's, uh, it's just, it's a very unusual thing. And this unusual thing is the most recent incarnation of a country.

Nicholas Christakis 44:38 Yes. Yes. Yes, I think that's right, and I think there are, you know, then this ties in with a whole set of ideas about American exceptionalism, you know, are we, how different are we, uh, what is the source of our wealth, what is the height of our civilization? You know, I'm, I'm, I am distressed by some of the direction our country is going in at the moment, but, uh, I think the, you know, uh, I think in the long arc of history, I think the United States stands for many of the best principles, uh, in the world. And I'm prepared to defend those principles.

Joe Rogan 45:11 (sniffs) I am too, and I think, uh, like you were saying with your libertarian friend, and, you know, someone who may be an anarchist or whatever-

Nicholas Christakis 45:17 No.

Joe Rogan 45:18 ... there's, it, it, there's room for all these weird opinions.

Nicholas Christakis 45:21 Yes.

Joe Rogan 45:21 They, they might not be correct and they will all be represented in this just gigantic soup of human beings-

Nicholas Christakis 45:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 45:28 ... that's 300-plus million.

Nicholas Christakis 45:29 Yes.

Joe Rogan 45:30 It's just, uh, it, the idea that America is like, uh, w- white nationalists in Charlottesville-

Nicholas Christakis 45:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 45:37 ... this is what's wrong with America. (coughs) No, what's wrong with America is volume. You know, you're go- you're gonna have certain ridiculous ideas and awful ideas that are amplified in this volume, th- this incredible mass of humans.

Nicholas Christakis 45:51 Yes, I think, with, um, a large, I think that's right, I think our size, uh, contributes to, uh, or makes a kind of heterogeneity of ideas more easy. Uh, you know, if we were a tiny country, although even in small democracies, you know, like, you go to European countries that are tiny, uh, Spain for example, I mean, it's not tiny, but it's tiny compared to us, uh, you know, there's a lot of difference of beliefs, from far left to far right. But I think, I think the key aspect which you were talking about earlier, which again, you're highlighting, which I agree with, is that we want an environment in which

Nicholas Christakis 46:21 people can, the ground rules are clear, so, you know, you can't, there's no physical contact allowed, right? So we do- we draw a bright-line distinction between words and deeds. So I completely reject the idea that words are, um-

Joe Rogan 46:35 Violent.

Nicholas Christakis 46:35 ... violent. Yeah, totally.

Joe Rogan 46:36 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 46:37 I totally reject that. Uh, and, and because we have different words for it, they're two different things (laughs) . Totally different.

Joe Rogan 46:42 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 46:42 Uh, we, we, so grounds are, you know, I can't touch you, but I can speak. Uh, other ground rules are that we are committed to open expression. A good ground rule would be that we grant positive intent, we grant good intent, that is to say I try to put what you're saying in the most favorable light. First, I think about it, I say, "Okay, now wait a minute, what is he saying? What does he mean by that? He might-"

Joe Rogan 47:02 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 47:02 Uh, now, you might be an idiot, a person may be an idiot. They may be vile, they may be violent, they may be wrong, you know, all of those things are also possible. But that's not the first go-to. Um, so anyway, if we set those ground rules, I think, I believe strongly that in the marketplace of ideas, truth will out, um, a- and, and righteousness will out. That's, that's what I think. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in fact what we need is a benevolent dictator who, you know, comes down and tells us all what to think and do. But that's not the world I wanna live in.

Joe Rogan 47:32 Yeah, the benevolent dictator idea is, what does that come from? Like why, is it just because it's, that's really been the only way that society has actually functioned for most of the past few thousand years?

Nicholas Christakis 47:42 Well, I think people have always fantasized, right? Every, I mean-

Joe Rogan 47:45 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 47:45 ... S- Plato talks about this, I mean, people look around and they think, "Situation is not so great."

Joe Rogan 47:50 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 47:50 "I really wish there was a strong man that would come down and fix it."

Joe Rogan 47:53 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 47:53 Um, it's very tempting-

Joe Rogan 47:55 And this is the, this is the inclination towards Trump.

Nicholas Christakis 47:57 I think in some part, yes.

Joe Rogan 47:58 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 47:58 Trumpism is a little bit about this fantasy that, that we will, um, you know, that, that the way out is to have a kind of imposition from above. And I think that's very dangerous, actually. And the sa- we were talking about it earlier, in college campuses, it's the same principle, right? Like, the idea that Big Daddy is gonna come down and tell us what to do and fix the situation, I think is undemocratic in the end. And dangerous.

Joe Rogan 48:22 But Big Daddy has to follow the rules that these children want. I mean, this is part of the issue with, uh, the idea of-

Nicholas Christakis 48:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:29 ... words equal violence.

Nicholas Christakis 48:31 Mm.

Joe Rogan 48:31 I mean, this is not a well-thought-through idea. And this is an idea that is-

Nicholas Christakis 48:35 Words-

Joe Rogan 48:36 ... really incredible.

Nicholas Christakis 48:36 ... can lead to violence.

Joe Rogan 48:37 Sure.

Nicholas Christakis 48:38 Words can be painful.

Joe Rogan 48:39 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 48:39 Um, they can hurt your feelings.

Joe Rogan 48:41 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 48:42 Um, they can be unpleasant. All of that is true, but words are different than violence. They just are. And so I think we need to, you know, and in fact, as, uh, Jon Haidt and, uh, and, uh, uh, Greg Lukianoff argue, we actually might want to create, there are other reasons to draw the distinction between words and violence and to cultivate an appreciation for that distinction. And that is by allowing people to speak, we may actually reduce violence because we can identify who has these crazy ideas.

Joe Rogan 49:13 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 49:14 We know who, so if you're, if, if, if I believe that someone hates people like me...And I create an environment in which we allow him to say he hates people like me. I think it's horrible that he hates people like me, I'm not defending that he hates people like me, but we might now know who he is.

Joe Rogan 49:31 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 49:31 Right? And so I stay away from him. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:33 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 49:34 You know? Uh, so, so that's their argument that Lukianoff and Haidt make that, that actually this is a potentially additional, additional benefit of creating a free and open marketplace of ideas, is we identify where the crazy is. You know, here are all these people, we're talking about the anti-vaxxers, I'd like to know who are the people that hold these beliefs. Because as a public health expert, and I was a, a hospice doctor for many years, I took care of patients for a long time anyway, I was very in- am still interested in, a lot of our projects around the world are public health projects. In order to be able to lead people to wisdom, you have to know where, where is the ignorance?

Joe Rogan 50:07 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 50:08 Well, if it's secret, you don't know it.

Joe Rogan 50:10 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 50:10 So that's another benefit of, uh, fostering this climate of open expression.

Joe Rogan 50:15 Yeah, and the, the solution to these bad ideas is for someone to come up and give a better idea.

Nicholas Christakis 50:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:22 Uh, someone to debate or to explain-

Nicholas Christakis 50:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:25 ... what's wrong with it, and to do it in a reasonable manner. When people start shouting and screaming and pulling fire alarms like it's-

Nicholas Christakis 50:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:34 ... com- This si- the idea of silencing people from speaking that somehow now that this is gonna help, this is, uh, this is also part of deplatforming.

Nicholas Christakis 50:42 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:42 Where people call for deep, deplatforming people.

Nicholas Christakis 50:44 No, I think that's wrong.

Joe Rogan 50:45 Even based on just r- reasonable people with differing opinions.

Nicholas Christakis 50:49 No, it's, it's wro- it's crazy, there's a, Tatchell, Peter Tatchell, there's a, uh, a gay rights activist in, um, in England who, you know, went to prison for his rights, was, been imprisoned in foreign countries for defending, uh, gay rights, and he was deplatformed in England a couple of years ago. No, here's the problem with deplatforming. So first of all, it is totally right and appropriate to protest. So if someone is speaking something you don't want, I will strongly defend protest. Stand outside, yell and scream, hold banners up, whatever. You can't interfere with the right of the speaker to express themselves, first point. But even more important, the reason we don't want that is not so much because we're interested in the right of the speaker. It's because we're interested in the rights of the listeners. The people who are, want to listen to that person have a right to listen to that person in a free society.

Joe Rogan 51:41 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 51:41 So when we prevent them, the harm we're causing is not, is not that I'm silencing you. I'm, I am interfering with the ability of all the people who want to hear you to hear you.

Joe Rogan 51:51 Right.

Nicholas Christakis 51:52 It's their rights that matter too. So if we, if, the deplatforming, it's not about, "Oh, so-and-so was unable to speak at such and such a place." It's the fact that all the people that wanted to hear so-and-so were deprived of their opportunity to do so. So I think the answer to words we do not like, the answer to speech we do not like is more speech.

Joe Rogan 52:11 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 52:11 It's not silencing.

Joe Rogan 52:13 Yeah, and there's also the ob- m- the obvious situation you put someone in when you do ch- attempt to silence them. You put them under duress and their message changes. You, you make someone more combative. And-

Nicholas Christakis 52:24 Yes.

Joe Rogan 52:25 ... uh, this has often been the argument for why Trump became president in the first place, is that people were, were tired of the argument on the other side.

Nicholas Christakis 52:35 I mean, I am not a political scientist, and I've, I followed that literature a little bit. Uh, I think there is a strong argument that that is one of the factors that contributed to T- Trump's, uh, success.

Joe Rogan 52:45 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 52:45 Let's keep in mind, however, that the majority of Americans voted for Hillary Clinton. Um, and, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 52:51 I think the majority of Americans didn't vote.

Nicholas Christakis 52:54 Correct. But of the people who voted, yes, that's right, that's another whole problem.

Joe Rogan 52:58 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 52:58 Um, but 63 or so million, uh, I mean, anyway, about three million more people voted for Hillary Clinton than voted for, for Donald Trump nationally. So, um, so, uh, I forgot how we got onto him. What were you saying? I, uh...

Joe Rogan 53:09 We were talking about people wanting to silence people, the forcing-

Nicholas Christakis 53:14 Oh yeah, so one of the things-

Joe Rogan 53:15 ... of political correctness.

Nicholas Christakis 53:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:15 And the rebounding of that-

Nicholas Christakis 53:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:17 ... is the reinforcing of someone who comes along like Trump-

Nicholas Christakis 53:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:19 ... who's b- b- the polar opposite of that.

Nicholas Christakis 53:22 Yes. I would agree with that. And I think that that's another, you know, that sort of is a variant of the argument we were discussing earlier, which is that you, one of the advantages of creating a free and open society is that you allow, you know, live and let live. And, uh, then you don't, you don't, you, you tend to, um, you avoid creating kind of suppressed animosities, or you, you can help to avoid it.

Joe Rogan 53:43 Yeah. The, because just open communication is so critical. And it's also, uh, critical to have reasonable, polite conversation.

Nicholas Christakis 53:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:51 Like people can oppose each other in for- in their idea, but you should be able to express how and why you oppose that idea-

Nicholas Christakis 54:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:00 ... without it being this sort of personal-

Nicholas Christakis 54:03 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:04 ... v- vendetta.

Nicholas Christakis 54:04 Yes, I agree with that. I mean, you know, I think we have to accept that there will be, uh, people will get angry.

Joe Rogan 54:09 Sure.

Nicholas Christakis 54:09 I mean, that's part of having an open society, and I think we need to accept-

Joe Rogan 54:12 It's part of being a person.

Nicholas Christakis 54:13 Yes. And I think we need to accept that some people, not everyone will, will engage in discourse the way you and I might want...

Joe Rogan 54:19 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 54:19 ... to engage in that discourse. Um, but I do agree with you completely, that ideally, we would have a kind of civilized conversation that allowed us to learn, um, and to grow. And I think ultimately that, as we've been saying, is, is better for our society as well.

Joe Rogan 54:35 Well, I think we should acknowledge that people are going to be upset, but we should also applaud people for not being upset. I think there's a b- there's a higher value to people being able to communicate reasonably.

Nicholas Christakis 54:48 Yes, I agree.

Joe Rogan 54:49 And I don't, I don't think that that's reinforced enough, and I, I don't think that's appreciated enough.

Nicholas Christakis 54:54 (laughs) I completely, I, I don't even want to get any disagreement from you on that, yes.

Joe Rogan 54:58 Yeah, I mean, I just, I just think th- we, this is something that we can do.

Nicholas Christakis 55:02 Yes.

Joe Rogan 55:02 And we can get better at it.

Nicholas Christakis 55:03 Well, I think it's like martial arts training, you know? I think that it, the self-discipline is not an easy thing, Joe.

Joe Rogan 55:09 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 55:09 And, um, like anything else worth doing in life, like basically anything worth doing takes effort. It's tempting, it, the, the go-to strategy that many people have, so I, I think it's important to note that free speech is difficult and it's not an easy thing. It's a natural inclination to want to silence your opponents. But it's wrong.... it, and it's harmful. And it's actually harmful to you to do that. So, um, so, uh, so I think it, we need to have an educational system that cultivates, cultivates that. That cultivates the capacity to tolerate an idea that you don't like, to think about that idea, and then to respond to that idea. Um, so, so, but I, so, so I guess what I'm saying is, it's, uh, it does require some training. It doesn't come naturally, unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 55:56 You know, but it should be reinforced.

Nicholas Christakis 55:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 55:58 We, and I think there's a way to do that, and there's a way to appreciate that, and there's a way to call that out when you see it, and just, I, I think the world needs more of it. And th- if we can figure out a way to do that, we will find that we, our differences are not nearly as egregious. They're, they're not nearly as disgusting as we like to think they are.

Nicholas Christakis 56:17 Well, well, that's exactly what I argue in Blueprint, that there's such, you know, like, you know, when you go to a foreign country, initially you're overwhelmed by the different food and the different smells and the different architecture. And anyone who's traveled even to a different state has had this experience. And yet, actually once you get to know the people, you see that they're very human. They're like us. They love their partners and they hang out with their friends, and they work together to build a civilization and a society, and they have schools and they teach and they learn, and they do all of these basic things that are a fundamental part of our common humanity. And, and this is what I talk about in Blueprint at length. You know, like, uh, I, I, uh, you know, I just, I think it's, I think there's a kind of, um, there's a kind of flawed beauty to the world that, uh, captivates me. And it's a little bit on the, there's this aesthetic tradition in, in, in Japan, and a philosophy called Wabi-Sabi. Do you know Wabi, what Wabi-Sabi is?

Joe Rogan 57:11 No.

Nicholas Christakis 57:11 You probably know about it, but you may not know the words. So...

Joe Rogan 57:13 I've, I've heard it, I just can't-

Nicholas Christakis 57:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:14 ... define it.

Nicholas Christakis 57:15 Do you know like how, like the Western aesthetic for pottery is like these perfectly symmetrical, beautifully glazed, you know, pots. But there's a tradition in Japan of slightly imperfect pots, you know, like a cracked pot or a pot that's slightly misshapen. It's very difficult, the masters, to make these pots. And it's, it's, it's called Wabi-Sabi, and it's about, it's about how imperfections, a kind of beauty of imperfection, a kind of flawed beauty, um...

Joe Rogan 57:40 Like a hot girl with a gap in her teeth.

Nicholas Christakis 57:42 Yes, I suppose. Um... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:46 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 57:47 Yes, I suppose that could be a good, an example of that. (laughs) Um, or, you know, Elle Macpherson, you know, famously had that little, uh, uh, was it her? I forgot. Which was the famous model that had-

Joe Rogan 57:58 Sydney Crawford.

Nicholas Christakis 57:58 Sydney Crawford, yeah. Uh, had that famous, uh, mole on her face. It actually ... so it was a flawed beauty. So, so here's the point. It's not hard to look around the world and see the violence and the murder and the warfare and the incompetent leadership, and all of these awful things about our species. But we're really a fucking unbelievable species, actually, who do amazing things when you compare us to other species. And there's a kind of flawed beauty to us. And I think that it's, it's wrong to be seduced to the dark side, you know? It's wrong to, like, only focus on the, on the bad stuff. I also think it's a kind of moral and philosophical laziness, right?

Joe Rogan 58:37 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 58:38 If we allow ourselves to just think that, "Oh, the, you know, people are awful," it kind of relieves us of any duty to be good-

Joe Rogan 58:46 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 58:46 ... and to work to make the world better.

Joe Rogan 58:48 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 58:48 It's a kind of, you know, surrender to the dark side. I think that's wrong.

Joe Rogan 58:52 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 58:52 And, and the book shows exactly how and why that's wrong, and, and how we, how natural selection has shaped all these wonderful qualities, which are shared the world over. So you go to the foreign country, you're initially perplexed by their crazy practices, and then slowly but surely, you r- find our common humanity.

Joe Rogan 59:10 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 59:10 And I, anyway, I find that, uh, it's pleasing, at least to me, that perspective.

Joe Rogan 59:15 You know, that's one of the cool things about travel, right? You, you broaden your perspective and your understanding-

Nicholas Christakis 59:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:20 ... of what it means to be a person.

Nicholas Christakis 59:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:21 You go to these different environments and try to-

Nicholas Christakis 59:22 And yourself, too, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:24 Yeah, they're different env- they're different foods, they're different art-

Nicholas Christakis 59:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:27 ... they're different architecture, and you go, "Oh, this is also possible, too."

Nicholas Christakis 59:30 Yes.

Joe Rogan 59:31 People can live like this.

Nicholas Christakis 59:32 Yes. And you even begin to see why they live like that.

Joe Rogan 59:35 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 59:35 You know, like you initially, you go to Greece and you have resin-flavored wine, you have Retsina, and, uh, you're wondering, "Why would these crazy Greeks put pine resin in their, ruining perfectly good white wine?" And then after a while, you start to say, "Hey, actually, (laughs) this is pretty good. Uh, you know, this is not a crazy thing after all." And you acquire a taste for it.

Joe Rogan 59:52 They put pine resin in their wine?

Nicholas Christakis 59:53 Yes. You know, the first time, the first time I had Scotch whiskey, I, I, uh, I didn't know what I thought about it. And now I love whiskey, right? It's an acquired taste. So the first time you drink something like that, you think, you know, "Yes, they put resin, they put pine resin in their white wine. They chill it." I should've brought you some. Maybe I'll send you some.

Joe Rogan 1:00:12 You know what's not an acquired taste?

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:12 What's not? Ouzo?

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Kool-Aid. It's delicious.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:15 Uh, from the beginning, yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Just right out of the jar.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:18 Yes, right out of the-

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 It's cold-

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:19 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 ... and it's just so good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:19 It's sweet. Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:00:21 Ooh.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:21 Yes, yes, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 You know?

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:23 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 You don't have to convince anybody.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:24 Yes, that's right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:26 That's right. Some things-

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:27 That's right. Some things are just good right out of the box.

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 They're just good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:30 Yes, yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Kool-Aid is just good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:32 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:00:32 I mean, I don't recommend you drink it all the time. It's full of sugar.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 It's terrible for you.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 But damn, that stuff tastes good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:37 Yes. It's like, it's like, uh, it's like fried foods, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:41 It's like-

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Sure.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:41 ... just yummy.

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 A lot of them, yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 French fries.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:44 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:00:44 I mean, come on, man. Salt and ketchup?

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:46 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 You don't like that?

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:46 Come on. That's, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 How could you not like that?

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:48 No, I'm, uh, I'm not sure about what I should mention, but anyway. I love Popeyes fried chicken. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 I do as well.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:55 I love it so bad. It's awful. And my wife-

Joe Rogan 1:00:57 It's terrible for you.

Nicholas Christakis 1:00:58 I hope ... My wife is unlikely to listen to this full podcast, so, or I'll, I'll skip over this part so she doesn't-

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:04 ... hear this part, but, and my sister will be listening probably, and so she will laugh when she gets to this part because-

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:09 ... whenever I see a Popeyes, I just pull over and indulge myself. And then I, anyway.

Joe Rogan 1:01:14 Terrible.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:14 Terrible. It's awful.

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 Popeyes is good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 But you know what? If you really wanna indulge-

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:18 ... and you like chicken-

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 ... Roscoe's. You go to Roscoe's now?

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:21 Is that here in LA? I haven't, no.

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 Oh, you don't know.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:23 No, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 Roscoe's chicken and waffles.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:26 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 Dude, I tried to go there the other day-

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:27 Chicken and waffles?

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 ... with my family. We tried... Don't you make that face.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 Tried to go there the other day with my family on a Sunday.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:33 I'm sorry, back up, back up.

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 There was an hour and a half wait.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:35 On the same plate?

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 On a Sunday.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:36 Chicken and waffles?

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 Of course, on the same plate. What are you, a communist?

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:40 (laughs) Like...

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 Yeah, man. It's, it's an LA tradition.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:43 Do the waffles have syrup on them too?

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 Yeah, hell yeah. And butter. Yeah. I mean-

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:46 And the chicken is fried?

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 ... you choose to put it on there. Yes, perfectly.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:50 (laughs) Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 It's, it's damn delicious.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:51 Okay. I'm gonna open my mind.

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 You sound like you're from another planet.

Nicholas Christakis 1:01:54 (laughs) So do I. I, I make maple syrup. I live in Vermont.... and I make maple syrup. I tap my own trees and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 Wow, what a freak.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:00 I have a, I have a... Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 And you're giving people a hard time for waffles and chicken together?

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:04 Exactly. (laughs) Right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 What are you showing me?

Jamie Vernon 1:02:05 Um, the colonel has it now.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 The colonel's a liar.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:07 (laughs)

Jamie Vernon 1:02:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 He does not have it. Get him outta here.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:09 He does not.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 That's not even the colonel.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:10 No.

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 The colonel's Norm MacDonald. I saw.

Jamie Vernon 1:02:12 No, they have multiple colonels.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:13 That is not. They do not have real-

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 No, no, no, no, no. There's one colonel.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 It's Norm MacDonald-

Jamie Vernon 1:02:16 It's a temporary, like, promotion or something they have.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 This is nonsense.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:20 Yeah, but they do not... Oh, my God. And the, and the syrup goes on top of the chicken?

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 Gotta check in to Waffles.

Jamie Vernon 1:02:24 Yeah, it's so good.

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 Let me say this. That chicken and waf- that waffles and chicken tastes like cat litter compared to Roscoe's.

Jamie Vernon 1:02:29 There's also a Sweet Chick LA he could try, too.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Get this outta here.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:31 (laughs) Uh, so, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 All that stuff can go fuck off.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:35 So... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 Roscoe's. Chicken and waffles.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:37 Okay, so I-

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 And you get the greens, too. The collard greens come in a styrofoam container.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:39 I like collard greens. Yeah, that's fine.

Joe Rogan 1:02:41 Damn good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:42 That's fine. But that's a waste of maple syrup. Take it from the man who makes it, to put it on chicken-

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 I'm sure Sweet Chick is good. I'm sure Sweet... It's Nas' place. I get it, I love it, I get ... I've been there, it's great.

Jamie Vernon 1:02:51 We don't care, we don't care.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 Roscoe's. Everybody but fuck off. Okay, I'll have a look. (laughs) Okay. There's a reason why there's an hour and a half wait on a Sunday.

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:56 Okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 How long are you in town for?

Nicholas Christakis 1:02:58 Uh, just a day. May- but I'll be back, though. I'll be back in a couple of weeks.

Joe Rogan 1:03:00 Just shoot over there right after the show.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:02 All right, maybe I'll go there for lunch.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 Go to the one on Gower.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:04 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 Woo, man, it's good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:06 All right, maybe I'll try that.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 It's so good. And it's also one of those places that's been there forever. We used to get it... I found out about it from 19- uh, 1994 when I was doing news radio. '95-ish, I guess. Uh-

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:17 Have you been in LA or... since you left th- Massachusetts?

Joe Rogan 1:03:20 No, I went to New York for a couple of years and then I moved out here.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:22 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 Moved out here in '94.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:23 Okay, so you've been here a long time, then.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 Uh, yeah. And when I was on news radio, they got it for, like, you could order lunch and someone ordered Roscoe's chicken and waffles.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:30 So you became addicted.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 And I was like, "What is this?" Like waffles and... It was just like you, waffles and chicken. There, it looks... That's, that's, that's, doesn't look as good as it looks when you're there. When you're there and you smell it, it's damn good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:42 I'd say-

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 Sorry, I'm doing a Roscoe's commercial here.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:44 That's an incredible-

Joe Rogan 1:03:44 But I'm a fan.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:45 That's an incredible combination of items, I just have to say. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 It is so good. It's so good. And afterwards, you better have nothing to do, man.

Nicholas Christakis 1:03:53 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:53 'Cause you're going into a food coma, son. (laughs) Anyway, um, wh- how did we get to that? Wh- what... I don't know, fried foods, foods that taste good-

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:00 I was gonna tell you maple syrup stories. Oh, yeah, going to, yeah-

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Yes. Different countries.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:04 Different countries and opening your mind.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:05 So you're rezen... Yeah, so you are counteracting my resin flavored white wine-

Joe Rogan 1:04:09 Yes.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:09 ... with these maple syrup, syrup-encrusted fried chicken. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 Well, I'm a, I'm a giant fan of spicy food.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 I love spicy food.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 So I really, really enjoyed Thailand. Uh, I really enjoyed their style of cooking and their kind of food-

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:23 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 ... and it just-

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:23 Are you one of those people who, who eats those, like, the Scofield units on the, uh, on the hot peppers? Like, you know, like, how hot you can tolerate?

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 No, no, I don't.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:31 You just like spice, it's not hi- hot necessarily.

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 I like habanero, I like, I like things pretty spicy-

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:36 Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 ... compared to the average person. But I have friends that put me to shame.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 Like, uh, I have a buddy of mine from, uh, that I used to do Fear Factor with, my friend Tommy Hershko. Shout out to Tommy.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 And, uh, we, I used to eat... I ate chili with him and I couldn't, I couldn't fucking believe-

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:49 Keep up, right. Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:50 ... how hard he could get.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:51 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:51 I'm like, "This is crazy."

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 I think people just have a different inherent... Like, it's almost, like, built into their body.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:57 It's both, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:04:59 It's both. Some people are better ables, like some are faster runners than others.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:02 But it's also training. So you get to-

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 Oh.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:04 You eat a lot. You slowly work your way up to being able to tolerate and like those really super hot peppers. I, I, I find it a very unpleasant... I have a friend just like you who really is into it, like, really seeks out the hotness.

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:16 I also think it's a little bit like addiction. Like, you tolerate, like, like, as you get used to, like, the less hot stuff-

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:22 ... now you need more and more stuff in order to get the same-

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:24 ... it's not a high exactly. Some people think it's a high, by the way, but-

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 There's a little high to it. Uh-

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:29 Uh, some people say that.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:30 I, I mean, I, again, it's not for me. I don't-

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 I cook meat with, uh, jalapenos. I slice it up-

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 ... and I'll, I'll have, like, a piece of the meat with the jalapenos, get... Especially elk with jalapenos-

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 ... is sensational.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:40 Yes. Well, it's so-

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 It's so good.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:42 You... Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Yeah. But I'm... My kids always make fun of me because I'm bald, so my, my whole head is covered with sweat.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 And they come over and wipe my head. They're like, "Look at you, you're so gross." And then...

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:53 How old are your kids?

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Uh, the youngest ones are eight and 10.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:56 And you have, you have, uh, how many?

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 Three. I have three.

Nicholas Christakis 1:05:58 Three. Three.

Joe Rogan 1:05:59 All, all daughters.

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:00 All daughters. You know you...

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 I have a 22-year-old, a 10-year-old, and an eight-year-old.

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:02 You'll live longer, uh, with daughters if you-

Joe Rogan 1:06:05 Really?

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:05 ... if you, if you plot, uh, dad's survival on the Y axis and fraction of female children on the X axis. Uh, survival is slightly longer for men who have higher fraction of daughters as children.

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 I think it's because boys drive you to your fucking grave-

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:18 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 ... 'cause they're so goddamn crazy.

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:20 There's lots of theories as to why it happens.

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 (laughs)

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:22 But I think... And that is, in fact, one of them. It's framed a bit more scientifically (laughs) than that, but-

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 Well, my-

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:27 ... but that's the basic theory.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 My 10-year-old is a maniac, my 10-year-old daughter.

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:30 And I just imagine if she was a boy, I'd be terrified that she'd be-

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:06:34 ... d- d- just lighting things on fire-

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 ... and blowing up buildings.

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 Yeah. Boys are a problem, you know.

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:39 It can be. But I mean, I think-

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 But they are. Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:42 I mean, I think, um... You know, I think it's, um... I think, um, the, the, uh... Well, I mean, we could get onto the whole, uh, gender issue. I'm not sure we want to, but, uh, I think, um, b- boys are responsible... Let's talk about chimpanzees, it's easier.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 Okay.

Nicholas Christakis 1:06:59 Male chimps, uh, do most of the violence. About 95% of the violence and murders are committed by male chimpanzees, and most of the victims are males.

Joe Rogan 1:07:08 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 1:07:09 And, um, you know, I think it's, there's no doubt that, um, biology plays a very important role in male proclivity to violence, for example.

Joe Rogan 1:07:17 Sure, testosterone.

Nicholas Christakis 1:07:18 So they're trouble. Yeah. So boys can be a problem that way.

Joe Rogan 1:07:21 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:07:21 And, and, uh, I think the many ways in which a s- uh, society are, uh, cultural traits that we invent, their purpose is to, uh, shape and guide those tendencies to violence to kind of mitigate them.

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 Sure.

Nicholas Christakis 1:07:35 But we don't just need... Again, going back to the book, so I'm sorry. (laughs) We don't-

Joe Rogan 1:07:38 Yeah, please do.

Nicholas Christakis 1:07:38 We don't just need, uh... We don't just use culture for that purpose. There, there's an argument in the book that we humans have, have domesticated ourselves. So-If you look at, if you compare, uh, dogs to wolves, and domesticated cats to wild cats from which they descended, or, uh, guinea pigs to the wild guinea pigs from which they descended, or, or horses to w-, uh, to the wild horses to which they descended, and if you, again and again, you compare these couplets, these pairs, you find that the domesticated version of these animals are much more placid, much more peaceful. They also tend to have floppy ears, they have piebald fur, so guinea pigs and dogs and cows all have splotchy black, white, and brown fur. Why is that? The animals from which they evolved didn't have those, that kind of splotchiness. So, uh, and they become much more, uh, peaceful. If you compare human beings, and, but they had a, a, a, tho- those animals were domesticated by humans. Like, I deliberately allowed the reproduction of this member of the litter and not that member because this member was, was, was nicer. And so across time, we evolve a more, a domesticated version of the ancestral species. So we get, you know, we get my miniature Dachshund from a wolf, like the one, like the kind of things that were photographed out in your studio, here.

Joe Rogan 1:08:56 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 1:08:56 Crazy transition. Uh, now, if you look at humans and you compare us to, uh, to the w- the non-, to our ancestors, or to other primates, for all the world, it looks like we have been domesticated. We are more peaceful and placid, we have sex outside, non-reproductive sex is another thing. So these domesticated animals will have sex, uh, even when it's not time to reproduce. Uh, we, uh, we, um, k- uh, t- w- our tails, we don't have tails anymore, but our tails ha- get shortened. There are all these, th- features that we have, these, these behavioral qualities and these physical properties that we have, are, are, are, we get a feminization of our faces, our jaws become smaller. Like, if you look at, you compare, uh, these domesticated animals to their non-domesticated ancestors, the domesticated version are less violent. So we lose a lot of the traits that physical and, and, uh, um, psychological traits associated with violence. But there was no one that domesticated us, so the theory is, the question is how? How did that happen? And one of the theories that's discussed in, in, uh, in Blueprint, and that's advanced by other scientists, this is not my work, is that we self domesticated, and that what happened over the cent- over the millennia, over millions of years, is that weaker individuals in our groups, when one individual became too autocratic and too violent and too powerful, they banded together and killed that guy. And so over time, we were killing the more violent members of our species, weeding out those people, and therefore, the gene pool changed across time, and we self domesticated. We are more peaceful today than we would have been because we domesticated ourselves. And this is one of the arguments that's also made to help explain the origins of goodness, actually.

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 And the origins of cooperation, because-

Nicholas Christakis 1:10:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:10:53 ... it would take a few good people-

Nicholas Christakis 1:10:55 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:10:55 ... to kill the bad person-

Nicholas Christakis 1:10:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:10:56 ... that's running everything that's evil.

Nicholas Christakis 1:10:58 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:10:59 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:10:59 That's exactly right.

Joe Rogan 1:11:00 Recreational sex does occur in bonobos, which is-

Nicholas Christakis 1:11:04 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:11:04 ... really weird, isn't it?

Nicholas Christakis 1:11:05 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:11:05 'Cause they're so similar to regular chimps.

Nicholas Christakis 1:11:07 Yes, but they're not the same species.

Joe Rogan 1:11:09 Yeah.

Nicholas Christakis 1:11:09 They also have homosexual sex, uh, they use sex, uh, to make up.

Joe Rogan 1:11:13 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 1:11:13 You know, so- uh, it, it's, yeah, they're very, uh, licentious, uh, species, that's exactly right. And, and, and, and bonobos are felt to be a self domesticated chimpanzee. So the simi- so bonobos are to chimps as, uh, as let's say dogs are to wolves, and, but there was, um, the dogs, we domesticated. The bonobos self domesticated, is the theory.

Joe Rogan 1:11:35 Do they know why or how?

Nicholas Christakis 1:11:37 Well, the theory is that they did it, like we were saying, by weeding out-

Joe Rogan 1:11:41 Mm-hmm.

Nicholas Christakis 1:11:41 ... killing the more aggressive members. It was, what we know must have happened is that the nicer guys must have been able to have more offspring, so the gene pool changed over time because of the differential success of the, of the, of the nicer guys. Now, people have looked at this even in