Joe Rogan Experience #1276 - Ben Shapiro

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Yes, we're live, Ben…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      Yes, we're live, Ben Shapiro.

   2. BSBen Shapiro0:11

      Hey, how's it going, dude?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      I, uh ... V- very good. How's it going with you, man?

   4. BSBen Shapiro0:14

      It's going well. I love ... I love the new digs.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Thank you.

   6. BSBen Shapiro0:15

      I haven't been here since you, you finished it over and I walked in, I thought to myself, "I've been doing my business wrong." (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      (laughs)

   8. BSBen Shapiro0:21

      I mean, you got what, three employees?

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Yeah, there's not that many folks working on this.

   10. BSBen Shapiro0:25

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       Yeah.

   12. BSBen Shapiro0:25

       I mean, so in my offices we have like 80 and, um, our offices are not nearly this cool. So I'm gonna go back to my office and fire everyone- (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       (laughs)

   14. BSBen Shapiro0:34

       ... and then have your folks come in and design because, I mean, it's either a lot of people or I could have cars in my office.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       Yeah, but you wouldn't go down this route. You're, you're more of a conservative gentleman than myself.

   16. BSBen Shapiro0:46

       That, that n-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       Look at you, you're wearing a suit jacket, you're your own boss.

   18. BSBen Shapiro0:49

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Nobody tells you how to dress, and yet you dress like a grownup.

   20. BSBen Shapiro0:52

       Yeah, well, uh, you know, I, I won't pretend that nobody tells me how to dress. (laughs) We have people who tell me how to dress, we have people who do my hair, the whole thing.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Do you have all that stuff? You have, like, fashion folks and wardrobe?

   22. BSBen Shapiro1:00

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I, because I used to ... I mean, if you look at the old photos of me, I have like the Hitler hair.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       (laughs)

   24. BSBen Shapiro1:05

       I've got, like, the, the hair ... That's the only thing about me that's hilarious was my old hair, and I've got the, the hair that kind of comes down over the forehead. And I still walk into the office wearing basically an undershirt every day 'cause I'm incredibly lazy when it comes to that stuff, but we, we ha-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       You should be able to.

   26. BSBen Shapiro1:18

       Yeah, I mean that's, that's the prerogative of being the boss.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       Maybe you'd be more relatable, maybe if you showed up wearing, like, flip-flops and a T-shirt.

   28. BSBen Shapiro1:24

       That kinda kills my brand though, no?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       Does it?

   30. BSBen Shapiro1:26

       Like, i- i- i-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   They, they're definitely going…

   1. BSBen Shapiro15:00

      of what stuff is good and what is bad, I am not comfortable with them in the driver's seat there. And if they are gonna be in the driver's seat, then they should be held liable for all the stuff that's on their platform. I mean, why isn't the ... Twit- Twitter, same thing, right? Why is it that Louis Farrakhan is still on that platform, but Alex Jones is not? Like, I don't like Alex Jones' material. I've been very, very critical of Alex Jones. I didn't think he should get b- banned from, from Twitter unless he actually violated the law, unless he was responsible for a violent threat, unless he was defamatory or something.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:28

      They, they're definitely going down this road of being the moral arbitrators. They're, they're the ones who get to decide what the conversations are. And h- And that's an insane responsibility. The responsibility of getting to dictate what should and should not be discussed, and to have it be a handful of people and have these people almost, almost exclusively live in the Pacific No- you know, north of San Francisco.

   3. BSBen Shapiro15:53

      In San Jose, exactly. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      Tha- that whole tech community. I mean, it's all tech liberals who really, if you're around those people, they live in this really strange, uber wealthy bubble of super genius spectrum people who are coders and super capitalists and people that are raising money all over the place and designing technology. And they have an ideology. And it's not necessarily a bad one, just, just being ho- honest and upfront about what it is. It's, it's incredibly progressive, which is very unusual for big business, right? For big business to be just openly, transparently progressive and pushing social justice, it's very unusual.

   5. BSBen Shapiro16:35

      Well, I think that there is a, uh, sort of misunderstanding of when we say what big business is, what big business is. So I think that there's a wide variety of owners of businesses in how they think about politics, obviously.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:45

      Yeah.

   7. BSBen Shapiro16:45

      Bill Gates is a progressive guy. Warren Buffett's a progressive guy. They're-

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:47

      They are now.

   9. BSBen Shapiro16:49

      W- Uh-

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       Right? But was-

   11. BSBen Shapiro16:50

       W- Uh, I, I think Bill, Bill Gates has been for a while.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       Was Bill Gates progressive his whole life?

   13. BSBen Shapiro16:52

       For those- It's, it's-

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       He's ruthless with Microsoft.

   15. BSBen Shapiro16:54

       Well, so, I think that there are a lot of pe- Listen, I think that, that the vast majority ... I think Mark Zuckerberg is ruthless with Facebook-

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Yes.

   17. BSBen Shapiro17:00

       ... and he's progressive. I think Jack Dorsey is as ruthless as the next guy when it comes to profit.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       Mm-hmm.

   19. BSBen Shapiro17:04

       I mean, he's still gotta be answerable to his shareholders.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       Yeah.

   21. BSBen Shapiro17:06

       So I think, I think a lot of the progressivism is sort of a, a way to excuse your own in- your own involvement in the capitalist market. You know, they're just-

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       But when Facebook took off "Don't be evil."

   23. BSBen Shapiro17:17

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:17

       Like, that was their thing, "Don't be evil." They decided to remove that.

   25. BSBen Shapiro17:20

       Yeah. It was Google, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       Oh yes. Did I say Facebook?

   27. BSBen Shapiro17:22

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:22

       I'm sorry. Google. Yeah, when Google did that. I meant Google. B- It's funny when you think something but you're saying another thing.

   29. BSBen Shapiro17:27

       Yeah. (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       Um, when they did that, it's like, "Why would you ever take off 'Don't be evil'?" Like keep that.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      point where they're going to go to sleep, and you would kill them if you kept going. And they tap-

   2. BSBen Shapiro30:03

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      ... and then you're friends again.

   4. BSBen Shapiro30:05

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:05

      And everybody's cool. And you try to do it to me, and I try to do it to you. And you really can do it reasonably hard without people getting hurt.

   6. BSBen Shapiro30:12

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      And it happens every day all throughout the world.

   8. BSBen Shapiro30:15

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      A lot of these people are high. And they're doing this jujitsu practice in this a- almost, like, uh, trans ... It's l- it's a transcendent state.

   10. BSBen Shapiro30:24

       But see, if you can function wa- If, if you can function when you're using marijuana, I don't care.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:27

       But you can.

   12. BSBen Shapiro30:27

       Right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:27

       This is what I'm saying.

   14. BSBen Shapiro30:28

       And, and that ... And, and-

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       Your, your perceptions-

   16. BSBen Shapiro30:29

       ... I mean-

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       ... are off.

   18. BSBen Shapiro30:30

       S- so, I mean, I would assume there's a small subset of the population for whom that's not true, right, who are overusing marijuana.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:36

       Yes.

   20. BSBen Shapiro30:37

       And, uh, uh-

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:37

       And that's probably the majority, in fact.

   22. BSBen Shapiro30:39

       Okay. So, so then, you know, but again, that-

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:41

       But I would say that's the same way-

   24. BSBen Shapiro30:42

       ... that's not a case for-

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       ... with food.

   26. BSBen Shapiro30:43

       I agree. So I, uh, w- I don't think there's anything we disagree about here, because I'm not talking about criminalizing marijuana use.

   27. JRJoe Rogan30:49

       Right.

   28. BSBen Shapiro30:49

       I think that we, we should honestly discuss the, the evidence that for a subset of the population, there is some evidence that marijuana is addicting, but it's a subset.

   29. JRJoe Rogan30:57

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BSBen Shapiro30:57

       It's not everybody who's on marijuana. The vast majority of people on marijuana are not addicted to marijuana.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   As long as when…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      experienced enough of it or have looked at it in an objective, rational way because I think it's something that could be here to aid perspective, to give people a chance to think outside of their normal conditioned way of thinking that might have been established by their community or by their church or by their neighborhood, whatever it is. Sometimes a little bit of a break, a little bit of a, a mental break from what you're experiencing and the, the vibration that you exist on almost every day to separate from that and to get a look at it from the outside, sometimes it allows you to have a renewed perspective that can enhance your life greatly.

   2. BSBen Shapiro45:39

      As long as when people reengage, they're reengaging on a level of commonality, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:43

      Yes. But that's a different thing, and this is what we share. You and I are both disciplined people, and it's one of the things I really respect about you. You're a very hard worker. You're always on the ball. You're very disciplined. And I know that a lot of conservative people a- admire that and they admire that in folks, and they think that people who are liberal are not disciplined. They think that they're lazy. It falls into this like weak, beta male sort of category of people that are progressive and liberal. And I think that's, I think that's a misunderstanding. I think you guys... You and I both agree that the struggle is very important. But I'd struggle physically so that I don't have to struggle mentally. I struggle physically so that I can have a, a better way of looking at things with less stress.

   4. BSBen Shapiro46:28

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan46:28

      So e- we have this shared belief that things should be a struggle. M- my strug- I force my struggle on myself so that I can have a better perspective, and this is something that you and I differ on. Like, I think you exercise, right?

   6. BSBen Shapiro46:41

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan46:41

      How, how often do you do it?

   8. BSBen Shapiro46:42

      I try to every day.

   9. JRJoe Rogan46:43

      Yeah. Makes a big deal. It's a big difference.

   10. BSBen Shapiro46:46

       Yeah, it's a huge d- it's a huge-

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       Yeah.

   12. BSBen Shapiro46:46

       ... it's a huge deal. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:47

       Yeah, I mean, I think y- we, we both understand that struggle is a... it's an important part of understanding yourself.

   14. BSBen Shapiro46:54

       Yes.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:54

       If you do not push yourself, if you do not struggle, you're not gonna really get who you are, what your boundaries are. And if you're self-indulgent, if every day you're stuffing things in your face that you want to, like it's good to have a rule. Like, "Hey, for this next month, you can't eat this or you can't do that." Or, "I want you to start fasting 16 hours a day." Is it that hard? Just eat for eight hours a day and fast for 16? But no, but that... Just doing something like that and setting these guidelines for yourself and putting yourself into a, uh, a disciplined state could be extremely beneficial. Like Jocko Willink says, "Discipline equals freedom." It is a-

   16. BSBen Shapiro47:29

       Yep.

   17. JRJoe Rogan47:29

       ... great formula and it's real.

   18. BSBen Shapiro47:31

       Well, it's e- and again, it is the basis of a lot of religion. I mean, a lot of religion-

   19. JRJoe Rogan47:35

       Yes.

   20. BSBen Shapiro47:35

       ... is very practice-based. It's one of the reasons I like Judaism as opposed to other religions. It's a very practice-based religion. You know, sometimes you can take that too far in one direction, which is I say you need to balance reason with, with dictates-

   21. JRJoe Rogan47:46

       Right.

   22. BSBen Shapiro47:46

       ... that are, that are meant to make you better. But that goes all the way back to Aristotle. I mean, Aristotle talks about how you have to practice to be good, right? You have to practice-

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:53

       Right.

   24. BSBen Shapiro47:53

       ... to be virtuous. What makes you a virtuous person is acting repeatedly in accordance with w- with right reason. And that is setting rules for yourself, right? That is not violating every rule.

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:02

       Yes.

   26. BSBen Shapiro48:02

       I, I think when, when we talk about on the conservative side, you know, folks on the left being lazy, I, I don't mean that in terms of work. I mean, Mark Zuckerberg is a hard worker, I assume. I think Jack Dorsey, when he's not getting bitten by, by mosquitoes seems like a hard worker.

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:15

       (laughs)

   28. BSBen Shapiro48:15

       But, you know, most, most of the people... Most people who have jobs are hard workers. I don't think it's about that. I think it's a, it's, it's a certain perspective on the necessity of rules-

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:23

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BSBen Shapiro48:24

       ... and, and the mindset that if I don't know what a rule is for, I'm going to remove it. So G.K. Chesterton has this, this very famous, uh, kind of contrast that he draws between people who tend to be right wing politically and people who tend to be left wing politically. He says people who tend to be left wing politically, you're walking through a... You're walking through the woods and you come across a fence. You don't know why the fence is there. And you say, "I don't know why this fence is here. I'm removing it." And the person who's right wing walks through the forest and sees the fence and says, "I have no idea why the fence is here. I'm gonna go find out why the fence is here, and then maybe I'll remove it." And that's the, the kind of Burkean conservative attitude toward rules. The, the attitude that-This rule was put here for a reason. Now, maybe the rule sucks. Maybe the rule has to go. But let's try and figure out what was at the root of the rule before we just wipe out all the fences and then try to rebuild from the ground up all these new fences. And that's especially true in a civilization that's the most prosperous and free civilization ever created. I mean, if the system really sucked, that would be one thing. But I think people are kind of ungrateful about the fact that we live in the best possible time, in the best possible place.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:03:09

   Well, for sure. It's…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      You're around a bunch of people that are criminals. Everybody's fucking up. The- There's no examples of anybody that's doing well. I mean, it's one of the unique things about the internet today is that a kid that's in that environment can get ahold of, uh, maybe something that you've said or something that, you know, someone else has said and start reading books and start taking in information that gives them a different perspective and fuel that perspective with more motivational stuff and more information and education. And sometimes kids, just like you were saying with Adam Carolla, they, they grow up with these parents that are, are just not ambitious at all, so they become very ambitious and they work very hard to not be like them. I mean, sometimes it's good to see that example, but most of the time, it's, it's just fucking hard for them to reprogram their head.

   2. BSBen Shapiro1:00:42

      Well, for sure. It's hard to do that and it's also hard... I, I really think that there's, there's a lot of focus in the country right now on raising awareness, which is fine. You know, raise, raising awareness of our history and all the bad things that we've done.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:52

      Yeah.

   4. BSBen Shapiro1:00:53

      Good. I mean, people, people should know about all the good things and all the bad things, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

      Yeah.

   6. BSBen Shapiro1:00:56

      It's, it's, history is history. But this, this incessant focus on the idea that people's lives are getting better by suggesting that they're perennial victims in the United States, I just don't, uh, I don't understand how that's a good thing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

      Yeah.

   8. BSBen Shapiro1:01:07

      Like, as, as a historically, a member of a historically persecuted group, if I had grown up and my parents had said to me, "No matter what you do, you will be put under the thumb of the dominant society."... that's a pretty horrible message to tell to a kid.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

      Yeah.

   10. BSBen Shapiro1:01:19

       And I think that's true for politicians, again, on both sides of the aisle. I think you get it from, from President Trump when it comes to some rural areas where it's like, "Well, it's the Mexicans and the Chinese coming in to steal your jobs." And, "You're under the thumb of, of people who are trying to destroy you."

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:31

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BSBen Shapiro1:01:31

       And on the other side of the aisle, people who say, "Well, you're, you're in the inner city, and therefore the cops are racist against you and want to destroy you, and everybody's out to get you." And it's like, well, how about this? How about like, again, the single best thing you can do for yourself is make basic decisions that are entirely within your control. Okay? Unless you are, unless you are raped, God forbid, single motherhood is a choice that you get to make about your life. Ne- ne- this is a choice you get to make about your life. Finishing high school, unless you are legitimately disabled in some way, I mean, especially in LAUSD where you basically have to be able to read at third grade level to finish high school. You know, just, just ... Like, these are, these are decisions, personal decision-making, if you want ... I- I've never seen somebody's life get better by complaining about reality. I've seen a lot of people's lives get better by acknowledging the reality is what it is, and then making personal decisions to make their lives better, and that's considered non-compassionate. But it seems to me the, the essence of compassion sometimes is saying, "At least make the baseline decisi- ... If you make the baseline decisions and then you fail, we can talk about what happened."

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:02:30

       I don't think it's non-compassionate. I think it's pragmatic, and I think you're right. But I also think that there's some people that are ... They're in situations that require something external to, to assist them. Their, their, the way their life has been set up, and this is what I think when people think about compassion and people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, if you have a real, if you really have an honest and accurate assessment of extreme poverty in terrible neighborhoods, it's not as simple as do something good to better your life. Part of it is, you got to fucking stay alive.

Episode duration: 2:34:19