EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,123 words- 0:03 – 0:40
Spiritual look, beards, and guru jokes
- JRJoe Rogan
Boom, and we're live.
- RBRussell Brand
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Russell, why is it then when people start getting, like, super spiritual, they start dressing like you?
- RBRussell Brand
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You dress like a guru.
- RBRussell Brand
We circulate a memo-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... saying, "It's now time to stop wearing socks-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... stop shaving, and make eye contact for a bit too long."
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, uncomfortable eye contact.
- RBRussell Brand
And uncomfortable. Keep a bit starey.
- JRJoe Rogan
How long are you gonna go with the beard? I mean, that's, that's like, you're, you're full on, like, you're a yogi now.
- RBRussell Brand
I mean, it's gone beyond Jesus and into-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
... Moses and the lesser prophets of the Old Testament.
- JRJoe Rogan
Or, or a Navy SEAL. You're in that range, too.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, you could be some wild man.
- RBRussell Brand
That's, that's a mistake that wouldn't... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 0:40 – 3:56
Camaraderie, masculine environments, and impulse control
- RBRussell Brand
Like, if there was an assault course in front of us, that, that, the potential for me being a Navy SEAL would start to break down. I once went on a, an assault course with some US Marines in that place near San Diego, I can't remember the name of that base, and climbing up that rope using your-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... leg muscles, it was not good value.
- JRJoe Rogan
Didn't enjoy it?
- RBRussell Brand
I liked the camaraderie.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
And I really l- uh, like, I, as I've written about and talk about quite a lot, when I'm around very, in very male environments, I kind of really like it. I really get off on it, but I have to watch myself not getting too excitable. It's even in this environment as a matter of fact. I have to keep myself-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... a little bit chilled out. And like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why? What do you mean? What does it do to you?
- RBRussell Brand
Well, I guess what it is, is, my early life, I grew up mostly around my mum, and I don't have brothers and sisters and stuff like that, so my male role modeling occurred later in life. And I think it probably-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... relates to this spiritual thing. I think it meant that I was, I'm very open to sort of spiritual experience, meditative experience, so I didn't have a lot of grounding physical experiences or bodily experiences, really, 'til adolescence and 'til se- and sexuality. That's the first time I really sort of got into the body. Didn't do sport as a kid. Didn't have, like, men going, "Right, this is what we do, this is how we shave, this is how you treat people, this is..." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
I didn't really sort of get that kind of education. So now, still, if I'm around, like, soldiers, UFC fighters, I go... You know, you know I do BJJ-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
... primarily as a result of these c- confron- well, let's not call them confrontations. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Conversations.
- RBRussell Brand
Encounters. Conversations. That's a much nicer term.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
So, like, I, there's a bit of me that's, I can get excited about the analysis of it. It's not homoerotic, because that's, doesn't happen to be the way that I roll out, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
You just enjoy a little too much.
- RBRussell Brand
There's something about it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you get fired up.
- RBRussell Brand
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And, and maybe... What, what's bad about it? What's, what's bad about getting fired up?
- RBRussell Brand
Nothing for me, except, like, you know, look, my, as you know, my motto for life is a sort of a 12-step model about watching my impulses.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRussell Brand
My impulses have got me in a lot of trouble. My impulse is to take drugs, my impulse is to sleep around, my im- like, my impulse is to even eat food. I've got a sort of a tendency to get obsessive. But, you know, you would probably argue that if you direct tho- that energy correctly, it can be kind of positive, I suppose.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it can, but I agree with you that it can get out of control. And I have similar impulses. I have similar problems.
- 3:56 – 11:03
Morality as personal practice: vegan vs. hunting and avoiding tribal hostility
- RBRussell Brand
That's a lovely compliment to get from you, Joe. I appreciate that, because what I think about is, like, you're a very different type of person to me. There's things that, in this world, in these polemical times, you and I would be supposed to, I would say, uh, take adversarial stances on. I'm vegan now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
You love hunting. But my personal philosophy is my morality and my spirituality is for me. It's not something I go around inflicting on other people and telling them how they should behave.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRussell Brand
I re- I know enough now to know people are different, people had different experiences, and I don't let those things get in the way of how I evaluate other people.
- JRJoe Rogan
I, we should all be more like that. I really, I really believe that. I mean, there's so many people that I disagree with that I have fine conversations with. Uh, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I don't think that impulse to, to have antagonistic engagements with people that you disagree with is correct.
- RBRussell Brand
How else are we gonna consolidate?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
If like, it's just like, "I'm only going to deal with people that see the world roughly how I do," how are we gonna f- um, um, form-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
... new tribes, new alliances, new relationships, new systems at, at a time when evidently, f- it feels to me at least, Joe, like things are breaking down?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
That there's a lot of bitterness, acerbity, and confrontation, and people don't wanna talk to each other. I mean, I don't know how real that is of actual people. I'm talking, I suppose, about how the media landscape seems to present information.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
I don't know if that's true when you're... You know, when I'm around people, I don't sense, "Oh, wow, these guys are really tied up in Brexit or Trump or whatever." It doesn't seem that relevant to ordinary people. It seems to me that people are still operating on a, in a personal, "How are you today? Are you okay?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
You know, people are willing to get on like that. I mean, how, how are we supposed to take these ideas on board? They're sort of almost too vast for us.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRussell Brand
These geopolitical ideas that we are asked to identify with.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, and then your everyday life, it hardly ever affects you or affects you very little in comparison to things that you ignore because you're concentrating on Brexit or you're concentrating on Trump or you're concentrating on whatever it is.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah, that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
The wall, build that wall, whatever it is. You-
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah, I start to wonder, you know, who is it that's involved in this stuff? I start to... What it's... Where I'm at now is ca-Are we even capable of belonging to groups, units, tribes of 300 million people or 60 million people with so many diverse ideas? Is this a time to look at federalism differently to start breaking down ... well, you know, the, I exist within this tribe of people-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... but I collaborate with all these other people. I don't know how municipal action gets done. I don't know how you run an army and build roads if people are starting to operate in smaller units. But I am thinking that we need to have a, a real sense of community and connection, and we've got to let go of looking for ways to object to and judge other people as some sort of primary form, way of forming our own identity.
- JRJoe Rogan
No. I, I completely agree, and I think we're probably moving towards some sort of understanding that a lot of these boundaries and these clans of, you know, states and countries, they were all established without our consent before we were born, and we're, we're just, we're a part of a system that we just, we're, uh, we didn't agree to it. We just all of a sudden found ourselves in it, and we're trying to make it fit us.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah. That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know?
- RBRussell Brand
And there, there's aspects of it that are appealing. You know, like, sort of during a World Cup-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- 11:03 – 13:45
Systems, institutions, and the limits of individual power
- RBRussell Brand
I had a couple of conversations that made me recognize how powerful systems and institutions are-
- JRJoe Rogan
(coughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... and their ability to maintain themselves, i- irregardless of any individuals. It seems like what happened there with the man you were chatting to is that he's an individual who woke up and went, "Oh my God. Hold on a second."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
"I'm in some sort of weird grid." And, like, I spoke to this fellow called Ken Ross who worked for the British Diplomatic Service at the time of 9/11 and was privy to confidential information about how that was handled on a military and geopolitical level. And he said, like, he's come away from that thinking, "Well, these institutions function and in a totally cor- corrupt way to pursue their own objectives. Disingenuity and dishonesty is just part of the system." And it was him that made me think about anarchism in a different way, saying that people, the assumption that people, if you, they were not tightly governed with big government and huge control, would go around murdering each other and raping each other, s- simply not true. That's one of the means by which the state continues to justify its existence. People will behave better the closer they are to c-... self-governing community-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... self-governing community. And this is, like... And I was interested in that because he's talking from, "This is what I saw on the inside. Uh, this is how I saw it was running," like your cop friend there. And, like, uh, another person I spoke to that had been inside a system and then woken up, uh, within it... Who was it? Oh, yeah, Y- Yanis V- Varoufakis. He was... When Greece had that mad revolution, he was, like, one of the leaders of a party, Syriza. And for a minute, it was like Syriza said, "We ain't paying back all those debts. You screwed us financially, you screwed Greece." So he was there at the EU meetings telling, like, the German Chancellery, "We're not pay- re- Greece ain't gonna repay those debts." And he just said that the way that the system reasserted itself was m- magnificent to watch in a way. And he said none of those individuals have any power except the power that that role gives them. If you are the German Finance Minister, you've got the power that a German Finance Minister has. You can't step outside it and start going, "Right, listen, why don't we do this and why don't we do that?" The system itself resp- is beyond individual decisions.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
You know, it's, it's a self-sustaining system. It won't come up with ideas or support ideas that threaten it. And that's why I continually keep hearing, and I'm sure you're having similar conversations, that if you are really interested in changing the world, you have to participate in systems that are outside of it. Set up new ideas. Don't worry about trying to smash this one down with a hammer. It'll atrophy on its own-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
... as it becomes less and less relevant.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think also, change yourself. And when you change yourself, it becomes evident to the people around you. And if your change is beneficial and attractive, people, they gravitate towards that idea that you, you can improve yourself-
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and you can, you change the, your perspective on things.
- 13:45 – 16:52
Mentorship, martial arts discipline, and early life vulnerability
- RBRussell Brand
Well, that is l- the one area of your life where you've got some authority and control.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
And that's, yeah, that is what I'm about, is like the, "Well, I can stop myself being like, uh, uh, uh, watching pornography. I can stop myself using drugs if I want to, like, you know, with some support." And that's what th- that, this book here, Mentors, which I talk about you in, only for a paragraph, you know what I mean? It's not too- it's not like a v- like literary fellatio. It's a s-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... a small nod of your, uh, like, of your influence and impact.
- JRJoe Rogan
(coughs) .
- RBRussell Brand
I talk about how we have latent qu- latent qualities within us that are sometimes hard to realize on a, on without support. But if you find a mentor in an area where you're looking to improve, they can, uh, g- kind of energize, awaken energies within you that on your own you wouldn't be able to use. I had a really recent experience of it where I was sort of, like, freaking out about something. I spoke to, uh, like, a, a mentor of mine. And, like, the way that he sort of spoke to me was, like, sort of aggressive, like a sort of an aggressive, "That's not gonna happen. You are not afraid." And, like, it sort of, it woke up the part of me-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... that f- feels that way, that has that kind of, I would say, sort of, uh, m- male certainty, a kind of grounded energy. He was able to sort of, like, direct it at me. And, like, in that moment in myself, all bewildered, I wasn't able to do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
You know, I needed to resource it externally in a moment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
So this is how I sort of feel like your individual journey ... I'm interested in how, 'cause I'm guessing with your background in martial arts and stuff, mentorship seems pretty much stitched into that. You must continually be looking at someone, learning from someone-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
... trying to equal them or whatever it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, the good part about that is you get good at learning things and you get good at listening. You know, uh, as a martial arts student, you, you don't just listen. You listen very intently. You bow. You say, "Sir." You know, I mean, there's, uh, there's so much discipline involved in the, the a- the act of learning.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so much reverence and respect for people who know more than you, and appreciation. So, uh, that, that helped me with pretty much everything I ever wanted to learn. I just would listen very intently. And I don't think, "Ah, maybe I could figure it out better." I w- I'm very good at listening to people that are good at things.
- RBRussell Brand
That's interesting. Did you first get into, uh, like, you know, I've picked up stuff over the sh- various shows that, of yours that I've listened to, but w- would you say that your inaugural interest in martial arts came from kind of domestic distress and stuff?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
Where you're having a difficult home life and then not a good relationship with your stepdad. Am I right in saying?
- JRJoe Rogan
There was that, but it was, uh, was also move- moving more than anything. You know, and my stepdad's a nice guy, um, but it was... Stepdads, it's always a weird situation, you know? But-
- RBRussell Brand
No one likes the dynamic of someone having sex with their mother.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
I remember (laughs) -
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... having, with similar feelings about my own stepdad. What was I doing in there?
- JRJoe Rogan
He's a great guy, though. I don't want to, like-
- RBRussell Brand
No, of course.
- JRJoe Rogan
... p- paint him in a bad way.
- 16:52 – 19:19
Teenage boys, ‘toxic masculinity,’ and AI judging human irrationality
- JRJoe Rogan
Didn't have any friends, constantly moving to new neighborhoods, meeting new people. And, uh, you know, and when you're a young boy or a teenage boy, teenage boys are fucking dangerous, man.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah, they're the worst.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're the worst, yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
If you see a group of them now, and I'm talking about in my country, 13, 14 years old, I'd j- I'll cross the street.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
They're lawless.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Well, y- young boys are just... They're always looking to impress each other, and they, they, they have these... If you wanna find real toxic masculinity, it exists in teenage boys.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah, in its purest form-
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, it's, it's mostly exaggerated in men. (coughs) The way it's described, it's mostly exaggerated in terms of w- the way the media talks about it. But in its purest form, in teenage boys, they get together and they start lighting frogs on fire and doing shit. They do things because they wanna, like, one-up each other and they feed off of each other. Like, what one boy would do is so different than what five boys would do. What five boys would do could be horrific-
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but what one boy would do on his own is very rarely there, 'cause what, you know, you have to think about yourself and think about, "Is this right?" And...You objectively a- uh, analyze the way you're behaving and like, "Um, yeah, people wouldn't be proud of me if I did it this way."
- RBRussell Brand
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But when you're with five other boys and you're- you're all rambunctious and filled with testosterone and piss and vinegar, you wind up doing crazy things.
- RBRussell Brand
This is ... I, you know, when I hear something like that, it's difficult-
- JRJoe Rogan
(coughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... not to think that it's, of course, relative. Relative to us, the behavior of e- adolescent males is reckless and crazy. It's not-
- JRJoe Rogan
(coughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... impossible to conceive of an intelligence that would look at the behavior of adult human beings and think, "Oh my God-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
"... what are ... what's governing these people? What principles are they using?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRussell Brand
You know? Like, what's-
- JRJoe Rogan
What's the end goal too? Like, what are you trying to accomplish with your life, with your existence, with your time? I think if there's a real concern about AI, I think the real concern is AI is gonna rationally analyze our behavior and our, uh, reliance on emotions and all these human reward systems that we have built in, the way it's affecting our society and the way it's affecting how we govern ourselves and how we behave amongst ourselves. And it's gonna think we're unfixable. It's gonna look at it like, "Well, this is- this is ... they- they have too much monkey in them." They have so much m- monkey instincts and monkey DNA, but now they live in this rational, modern world of, you know, 5G internet on your phone and satellite communication and 24/7 news cycle. But yet, they have these primate genes.
- 19:19 – 26:35
Psychedelics vs. rationalism: the sacred, DMT realms, and oneness
- RBRussell Brand
Artificial intelligence, a subject about which I know very little, w- seems to me that it will, on some level, have to be derived from a particular aspect of human understanding-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... of rationalism. So we're representing one aspect of our nature and prioritizing it, logic, uh, organization. But what you refer to as sort of primitive and monkey-ish, for me, it envelops and involves the most beautiful aspects of our nature. I'm a little romantic about human beings still. I still feel that... I feel that one of the great problems we've had is that philosophically, we have overvalued materialism, rationalism, and like, kind of knowing a little bit about philosophy primarily from that bloody podcast that you and I tagged a minute ago before we was recording. Who's that guy?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, Philosophize This.
- RBRussell Brand
So like what-
- JRJoe Rogan
(coughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... what I understand for that is like post-enlightenment, we've started to prioritize rationalism. So if you prioritize rationalism and organization, which obviously has a lot to offer, the organization of resources is incredibly and hugely r- important, you forget that a huge part of the human experience has nothing to do with that. The other thing we were chatting ab- about before we went live was DMT. Now, no artificial intelligence is gonna understand that there is access to a- a realm of consciousness that continually exists that doesn't seem to be bound by physical laws as we understand them. And if the physical laws that we abide by are parochial and relevant only to this level of existence, why are we allowing ideas resourced from there to govern all of our systems? You know, even listening to you talk about DMT and you say, "I encountered these gestures, I ... uh, the jesters, I went through this membrane into another realm." And checking out Mike Tyson when he was on here and, "No, no, no, yeah!"
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. (laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
I love that. That moment was amazing. (laughs) Um, like, uh, like it ... like the clear, like, you know, I only ... I took acid when I was a teenager, and even in very unhealthy con- not unhealthy, but bl- unbridled mad teenage boy conditions, I, you know, I want to be there with a guy in a lab coat with a pen going, "Well, Mr. Brown, sit down. Look at these Rorschach tests." Instead of which I'm in New Cross in a bedsit dropping acid and staring at my own hands and recognizing, "Oh my God, I'm not me. The very idea of me is a construct. I'm just tuned into a particular aspect." AI will build systems that are b- that are predicated on rationalism, organization. And I, on- and on that basis, I can see why they would at some point, yeah, go all Skynet and annihilate us. But that is a s- I believe the problem with our society is that the materialistic aspect of our nature is not the priority. It's just one thing we should be doing. Of course we need good roads, of course we need hospitals, schools, food, et cetera, but we need to find a way of honoring the sacred. And I'm fascinated in the experiences you're having in these psychedelic explorations and how it's influencing the rest of your life. Like how you're saying, like how you're ... how does it influence the rest of your decisions, the way you see the world, the way you see relationships, the way you see the vulnerable young man you were prior to building your own, I say personal religion of martial arts, excellence in your chosen field of standup comedy? How do you incorporate that vulnerable kid? 'Cause I'm still very aware of the vulnerable person I was. And like ... I'm going on a rant, man. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's good.
- RBRussell Brand
Um, like when Kevin Hart was on here, who I think is amazing and he was amazing on this, I thought, "Fucking hell, like what have I got to offer the world when Kevin Hart has got this kind of force?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
Like you know, "You don't come in the bubble," and all. And I was like, "My God, this guy is so positive. What a role model."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
"What a lot he's got to offer." And then I thought, "Well, like any of us, what I've got to offer is who I am, just who I am as a vulnerable-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
"... flawed human being that still feels connected to the kid I was when I didn't feel good enough." I still feel that. I can walk in a room and feel that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
But I also know that that's- that's not real because I've had spiritual experiences, hallucinogenic experiences that make me feel that the relationships we should be building have to honor that we are both ... v- we're vulnerable and flawed, but also capable of greatness. There has to be room for all of this. And I feel that part of what we're doing and part of why we're experiencing such superficial polarity in politics and culture is 'cause we're not acknowledging that underneath this surface activity of left-right, left-right, and you know from Sam Harris, them little experiments, you stick garbage in front of a p- someone, they're- they become Republican pretty quickly. Or you, you know, you scare people, they become less Democratic. You know, I think all that stuff is pretty superficial. And at depth, in that realm of the jesters and the membrane of psychedelia, we have access to oneness. And that should be what's influencing the way we set up our tribes, our systems, and our relationships.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and I think when a guy like Kevin Hart shows you what a- a positive and motivational, uh, impact one person can have just with his words and his deeds and the way he lives his life-... he's so inspirational that you realize, uh, that that, that is possible, that you c- you can share that energy, and that you can have these experiences with people where they literally do actually, they actually uplift you. Like, I l- I was uplifted by his conversation.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I felt like, "Wow, that guy is so positive." What a great way to look at the life that we're, we're living.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the more people do that, the better. And when someone like that does spread a positive message, you know, and it... obviously, he's got... he's materialistic as well. He's got a bunch of cars and a big house and he makes a lot of money and he does a lot of movies. But what he's spreading is this very motivational, very positive message, and that affects people in a very positive way too. And all that left-right shit, and all this, uh, the, the, all the, the battles that we have politically and ideologically, back and forth, and all the negative venom that people spray at each other, at the end of the day, the, this, th- it's not benefiting anyone, unless you're fighting some m- a major demon that the world needs to conquer. M- a- and most of it, most of it's not that. Most of it is, like, finding demons out of innocuous things.
- RBRussell Brand
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You know?
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think when you talk about what, what you have to offer, what you have to offer is that you are you, that you have this unique perspective. You, you can affect the way people view their own journey in life because you've been so introspective and so aware of your own pros and cons in terms of your past behavior, your current behavior, and who you are now and who you used to be. All that stuff is fuel for people 'cause they can relate. They hear it. I mean, maybe they cannot relate r- to being a movie star and being this famous guy and the strug- but th- they could relate to the humanity of your struggle. They put themselves in your position, like, "What must that have been like?" And look at this guy who's made these conscious decisions to not be like that anymore, and he dresses like a homeless person with a crazy beard. (laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
That's the real take-home information. Dress like you live out of doors. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yeah, dress like you're a, a homeless guy in Oregon. (laughs)
- 26:35 – 31:01
BJJ as ritual, humility, and a safe way to channel primal energy
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah. So, um, hey, can I do some, b- like, promotional activity?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Tell me about your book. Tell me what it's called. What is it?
- RBRussell Brand
This book is called Mentors.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
And actually, I r- like, uh, I read it, bits of it again 'cause I knew I was coming here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Kinda helping, you helped.
- RBRussell Brand
And I think it's actually pretty good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Awesome.
- RBRussell Brand
Like, I wrote quite a lot about Brazilian jiu-jitsu, not from-
- JRJoe Rogan
You really love it, huh?
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah, I do. My writing is not from a, you'll understand, not from a technical perspective. I'm not saying, "This is what I've got to say on open guard." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right, right, right.
- RBRussell Brand
Now, to transition. I'm talking about how the psychological impact that it's had on me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
And also in there, about, like, the protocols of going to a group, which as a beginner, are very relevant. Like, you touched on how ritualized it is. I got a hunch that the more we emulate and connect to original ways of human behavior, whether that's dietary or hierarchies or organization of groups, I feel that we will, uh, s- feel a sense of greater connection. Now, the f- the thing I got from going to BJJ classes, Genesis, where I go in, back in England, is like the, all the white belts get changed at one end of the room, the purple belts and above get changed at the other end of the room, which coincidentally or not is where the control for the timer is and the control for the music is and where the kit is. That's all up that room, so, uh, end of the room. So all the control is that end. But it begins with sort of dancing around in a circle doing all of those various exercises. Now lift your knees, now do the shrimp hit, and that kind of stuff. It's that, uh, a lower belt shouldn't invite a higher belt to spar or roll. You know, it's that, and like the, as you say, the amount of respect, the bowing, the handshaking at the end of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
It's so sort of... it provides such a safe e- environment in which t- to deal with the primal. I can see why it's valuable and it's the, like, you know, I should've been taught that shit when I was 14, 13.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
Like, as, uh, mandatorily so that I didn't come across it. Like, you know, you're n- not gonna be setting fire to fields and allotments and putting frogs on fireworks if you've got a way of dealing with that primal energy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
... when, when it's coming, when it's happening.
- JRJoe Rogan
Some people that don't understand that think that you should suppress it somehow. You should just ignore it or suppress it. They don't understand that-
- RBRussell Brand
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
... for men, it really, uh, for a biological male, it really needs to be tackled head-on. I mean, you really, you really need to en- embrace what it is to be a physical male. And it frees you in a lot of ways.
- RBRussell Brand
Do you think this might be a comparable moment to in the 1960s when there was a sort of a sense of sexual repression versus sexual free love? You know, the images of Woodstock and flowers in their hair-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... and smoking joints and having sort of sex outdoors in mud or possibly wheat, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... that, that this time of, like, a kind of an anger about maleness.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 31:01 – 38:43
Fatherhood, gender constructs, and cultural pressure on sexuality
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah, there is no simple way. And I, when I think about my own attitudes in this area, there is a degree of complexity 'cause I've got young daughters. I've got a two-year-old (inhales deeply) and a one-year-old, right? And they're, you know, daughters. So like, but when... The other day, um, 'cause I'm staying in Los Angeles, Gabby, she's Mexican, she used to w- when I first moved out here and lived my Entourage lifestyle, she used to look after the house. And she used to think, uh, "Oh, my baby, my baby." She loved me so and I'd like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... I'll take a matriarchal figure wherever I can find one, and Gabby used to look after me. She adored me and stuff. I stayed friends with her.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
Yesterday, she come around. She bought like a, like what I can only describe as a bikini for like my baby daughter.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
Like now what, a two-year-old doesn't need like, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right.
- RBRussell Brand
... a bikini, like top. And I... Excuse me, burping on the mic. I like, uh, uh, for me, I felt like, "I don't wanna put my daughter in that." That's sort of, in a way-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sexualized.
- RBRussell Brand
... sexualizing-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
... the, like that child and like have it so... And also, a lot of the time like with my daughter, I don't... Like with my wife, particularly with our first child, I'm like, "Don't dress her up in little dresses and stuff because she won't be able to like run around." And I thought, "My God, I'm not, that's not that different from like the, the cliche of a male parent that wanted a son," and I didn't want a son or you know, in particular, like I love this kid. I lo- love this kid-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
... regar- you know, it doesn't mean a thing. I love having a daughter. Adore her. But like, I am aware that these things of like, dress a child this way, dress a girl this way are constructs. Further to what we were talking about again before about Michel Foucault. We got a lot done before we went live, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
Like when we were talking about Michel Foucault, what he exposes a lot is that there, and, uh, and, uh, Deleuze, Gilles Deleuze, is that a lot of things that we take for granted as being normal are actually constructs. And when I say a child's (laughs) bikini, I mean, there's no reason for any child of any sex or gender to be wearing a bloody bikini.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRussell Brand
So a child with tits is a terrifying (laughs) idea-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... for, for all but a very small and terrifying percentage of the population. So like, that is an example of the external feminization of a child. Like so when there's an argument, a feminist argument of, you know, gender is a construct, I can see, oh yeah, to a point, it is. There is, there are constructs. You can't argu- like my opinion is you can't (laughs) argue with biology. Chromosomes are doing what they're doing in the physical realm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRussell Brand
(inhales deeply) But like, uh, I, you know, like being a father to a daughter has made me feel like I don't obviously, and I know you have daughters or at least eight daugh- uh, three-
- JRJoe Rogan
Two.
- RBRussell Brand
Three daughters. Like I, like I'm certainly very aware of, I don't wanna push them down some culturally prescribed avenue, whether it's about-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRussell Brand
... their dress, their sexuality, or anything. So I've got, you know, where do I, where am I on that dial, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you gotta just not put any pressure on them and, uh, let them enjoy their life and let them find their path. That's, well, that's what's weird, right? It's like, I see people, they're, you know, they're getting their, their daughters to dress very, very feminine with little miniskirts and stuff when they're five years old, and high heel shoes. I've seen little kids with high heel shoes. It seems very strange to me. I don't like it.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah. Well, so, you know, but for me that is being sourced from, like can't... We can extrapolate that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 38:43 – 56:21
Media outrage mechanics, Facebook engagement, and avoiding comment traps
- RBRussell Brand
I, um, did a interview a while ago where I sort of talked about, like, p- parenting our kids, me and my wife, how we parent our kids. And I said, like, uh, you know, a guy goes, "Oh, I have to be honest. My wife is much the more dominant parent. She's m- much more practical than I am," right? And, like, stuff that got, that got, like, really negatively written about. People said, like, I go, "She changes more diapers than I do," and stuff, right? You know, and I say, "N- not like I don't change diapers or whatever." I just... My wife, you know, regardless of our respective sexes, is the more efficient, dominant parent. She's much more likely with, like, with me, if my daughter goes, "I want that chocolate." The answer to, from me is, "Oh yeah, all right." You know, like, I, like, I can't bear to see the, the resistance, the emotional explosion. I concede much too early.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
I tap out very quickly with, with my two-year-old. My wife is much more, "No, let's play the long game. Let's bring up a child that's not governed by impulses like you."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
And I spoke, in fact, to that Gabor Mate, that expert on addiction. He's amazing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
(inhales deeply) And he says because of your own anxiety and pain from your own childhood, with no disrespect to my magnificent parents, uh, like, you can't handle seeing your kid suffer. So you, like, straight away, you bail and do what she wants and stuff. Now, the, like, so there's so much complexity in the reality of our personal little domestic relationship. And I'm certainly, well, not saying, "And everyone else should run their household in that manner as well."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRussell Brand
"And so help me God, any man that changes and, uh..." (laughs) You know, but the way it was reported is, like, that's what, uh, uh, happens, I think, in modern media, is they change what you say, then you have to defend what they said you said.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
And you go, "Well, that ain't what I meant." I, like, you know, I'm not saying that, that because my wife is a woman, she should take more domestic ju... You know, I'm just saying that in our household, she seems to have a set of attributes and characteristics that make her, uh, m- take control of that aspect of parenting. And it's like the, the desire to judge, condemn, and object is pr- the priority as opposed to the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
You know, no one's looking to go, "Oh, that's, you know, who cares?" Or what, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's also that they're doing it publicly, so they're doing it most... I mean, if you're, you're either reading comments or you're reading articles. And if you're reading articles, they're just looking for something to be upset about. They watch you, and they'll say, "Okay, is this a viable target? Yes. We got confirmation. What he said about changing diapers or his wife being a better parent is a viable target. Let's go after him." And then they just formulate some bullshit argument about who you really are based on what might have been a throwaway or a concession to your wife, or even just a compliment to your wife for being-
- RBRussell Brand
It was a compliment.
- JRJoe Rogan
... self-deprecating to yourself.
- RBRussell Brand
That is what it was. I was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, but it doesn't... People don't, they're not looking at things rationally. They're just looking at targets. Espec- p- particularly people that write articles, you know, what's the best article? It's gotta be negative. Like, one of the things that came out of all this, uh, Facebook algorithm stuff is you find out that Facebook realized somewhere early on that the way to encourage engagement is to get people upset. They, they get way more engaged and they go back and forth and, and, and inter- interact with these posts way more if they're upset than they do if they agree with it. If they agree with it, they might give it a like or a thumbs up and say, "Hey, that's great." And that's it. That's where it ends. But if, you know, someone's talking about, you know, "We shouldn't build the wall. We should let everyone in." And you put that on some fucking Trump guy's page, and they, "Ah!" It's crazy. I mean, you will get thousands and thousands and thousands of interactions.
- RBRussell Brand
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so Facebook realized that the way to keep people... And, you know, they could claim that, that it's an algorithm, and the algorithm just supports-
- RBRussell Brand
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... whatever the people are really interested in. But what they're interested in is conflict.
- RBRussell Brand
That demonstrates my earlier point, which I made up on the spot-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... that AI is not a neutral thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRussell Brand
It is resourced from human perspectives and 'cause that is a type of AI, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
For now.
- RBRussell Brand
Not as, not as-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 56:21 – 1:03:39
Diet wars and hormones: vegan documentary skepticism, TRT, and monitoring
- RBRussell Brand
I watched a documentary-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRussell Brand
... um, called What The Health. Have you seen it?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's-
- RBRussell Brand
Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's filled with a lot of propaganda and nonsense.
- RBRussell Brand
Oh, propaganda. Damn, those guys again.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is.
- RBRussell Brand
Like the Nazis. I remember them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it- it's they used a lot of discredited studies and there, there's a lot of epidemiology studies that'll connect things that aren't necessarily-
- RBRussell Brand
Epidemiology, does that, what does that mean? Like an epidemic? What's that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you could... No. We could pull up what the actual, uh, definition of-
- RBRussell Brand
It's about time Jamie pulled something up in this episode.
- JRJoe Rogan
... epidemiology, but the way I would describe it is, they would do these studies and essentially it would be, they would, they would ask you what you eat on a daily basis, how often do you eat meat, how, and it's basically a survey. And in, in that survey they would say, "Well, there's a direct correlation between people that eat meat and diabetes."
- RBRussell Brand
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So let's pull up the definitions of that.
- RBRussell Brand
Oh, I see.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the problem is, what is causing... Here, a branch of medicine which deals with incidence, distribution and possible control of diseases and other factors relating to health.
- RBRussell Brand
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, so when they're, when they're dealing with incidents, right, they're dealing with, uh, how often do you eat red meat? How often do you eat this? How often do you eat that? And then they find, oh, well, there's more instances of, of diabetes in people that eat meat. Okay. But is it people that eat meat and vegetables or is it people that eat meat and vegetables and diet Coke-
- RBRussell Brand
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and, and sugary sodas-
- RBRussell Brand
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
... and ice cream and french fries? And how are they eating their meat? Are they eating cheeseburgers from some bullshit fast food place or are they eating grass-fed steak?
- RBRussell Brand
I see.
- JRJoe Rogan
Are they eating grass-fed steak and, and vegetables? And there's very little evidence that shows there's anything wrong with eating meat if you follow a normal healthy, what they would call a primal diet.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Eating, cut out all the grains, cut out all the sugar, cut out all the bullshit, eat vegetables and meat, and there's almost nothing. I mean, unless you have some very unusual, rare condition where you're either allergic to meat or you have some, uh, very strange, uh, uh, digestive system where you fi- you have allergies to it or you have real problems digesting it or you have real problems with high cholesterol foods, which is very rare as well, most of what you're getting is vegan propaganda. People that want other people to be convinced that the way that they're living is the correct way and that eating meat is, is physically bad for you and is causing all these harms. What's causing all the harm for people physically is the modern American diet and that's been pretty established.
- RBRussell Brand
Right. Yes, that's right. And there, there are clear ethical reasons to be vegan in that it takes you out of the exploitation of animals.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- 1:03:39 – 1:11:12
Hunting as spiritual practice and conservation economics
- JRJoe Rogan
You should eat eggs, though, man. You really should. You should eat, you should eat some animal protein without, I mean, if you o- oppose, uh, the moral aspect of killing an animal, which I totally understand and appreciate, and that's what led me to become a hunter in the first place, is that I was really uncomfortable watching these animal rights videos of, uh, factory farming. I thought it was disgusting. I was like, "I don't want to participate in this."
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah, it's reprehensible.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hunting is a different thing, man. To me, hunting is this intense... It's very spiritual in a way.
- RBRussell Brand
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, people don't get it, because they see you celebrating when it's over, because it's very, very, very difficult to close in on a wild animal.
- RBRussell Brand
What are you hunting?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mostly elk. El- elk's my favorite for two reasons. One, it's very delicious, super nutritious. Also, if I shoot one elk, I could eat it for, like, eight months.
- RBRussell Brand
What, you're freezing them?
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause they're, like, hundreds of pounds.
- RBRussell Brand
Salting them?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Freezing 'em, freezing 'em.
- RBRussell Brand
So you're out stalking an elk on the plains.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
Where are you? Like, near where you live? You just go out-
- JRJoe Rogan
Utah, Utah's great.
- RBRussell Brand
Do you travel on bikes or something?
- JRJoe Rogan
Travel. No.
- RBRussell Brand
How do you follow them?
- JRJoe Rogan
You can, uh, yeah, well, you do travel on bikes if you, uh, white-tail hunt. A lot of times, you'll go into the woods with bikes 'cause they don't leave a scent the way your feet do.
- RBRussell Brand
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, and, um, a- animals don't associate the sound of a bike the way they associate it with, like, the sound of stepping, bipedal, hominids stepping towards them.
- RBRussell Brand
Wow, they've evolved, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
"Uh-oh, bipedal."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, they see you on a bike, they don't even freak out as much.
- RBRussell Brand
Delightful. Never seen that before.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're like, "What's that?" And then-
- RBRussell Brand
"Ah, my brain!"
- JRJoe Rogan
... "What are these things?" Yeah.
- RBRussell Brand
Yeah.
Episode duration: 3:20:02
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