Joe Rogan Experience #1292 - Lex Fridman

1. 0:03 – 4:27

   Sequel banter, suits, and arguing about “great” movies

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Ready? Boom, and we're live. Hello, Lex.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:05

      Hey.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      What's going on?

   4. LFLex Fridman0:06

      The sequel, part two.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      You got -- you have, uh, a very similar, if not the exact same, suit on.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:11

      This is all I wear.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      You look very professional.

   8. LFLex Fridman0:13

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Very, um, Reservoir Dogs.

   10. LFLex Fridman0:16

       Reservoir Dogs?

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:17

       Let's just-

   12. LFLex Fridman0:17

       Well, let's go to the best sequel of all time, Godfather Part II. That's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       Is that the best sequel of all time? I think John Wick might be. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman0:23

       Haven't seen John Wick. (laughs)

   15. YVYoung Jamie Vernon0:25

       Same suit.

   16. LFLex Fridman0:25

       How dare you, sir?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman0:28

       Godfather Part II, I mean, that's... That has to be the best sequel.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Okay.

   20. LFLex Fridman0:33

       Then, and if- if this is Godfather Part II, let's definitely not do Part III.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Yeah, Part III was terrible, right?

   22. LFLex Fridman0:39

       Well, let's- let's not offend anyone, but it was not up to par.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       It wasn't as good.

   24. LFLex Fridman0:43

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah. I don't remember it.

   26. LFLex Fridman0:45

       It was, uh, the older Pacino.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Oh, yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman0:48

       With that deeper voice.

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Oh, though, ooh, that was, like, way later, right?

   30. LFLex Fridman0:51

       Yeah. That was '90s.
2. 4:27 – 6:49

   The Big Lebowski “taste test” and the nature of film arguments

   1. LFLex Fridman4:27

      I mean... Okay, listen. Fil- What- what's the purpose of film? Right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:32

      Entertainment.

   3. LFLex Fridman4:34

      Or make us think. I mean, they're-

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:35

      Make us think. Hmm. No, you're gonna think if you wanna think. Y- Nothing makes you think. A film can engage you. You- it can- you can- it can resonate with you or not. I have a movie that I throw by people whenever I wanna...

   5. LFLex Fridman4:49

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:49

      ... find out whether or not I wanna listen to anything they have to say about movies.

   7. LFLex Fridman4:52

      Yeah. Ex Machina?

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:53

      The Big- The Big Lebowski.

   9. LFLex Fridman4:54

      Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the greatest movies of all t- That could be-

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:57

       Oh, look at you. Okay. Good. Good for you.

   11. LFLex Fridman4:59

       That- that could be, like, that could be, like, slightly better than Scent of a Woman.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:03

       Oh, boy.

   13. YVYoung Jamie Vernon5:04

       (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman5:05

       That also has one of the greatest scenes, uh-

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:07

       (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman5:07

       ... between a man and a woman when he's, uh... when the fine young lady's painting her toenails.

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:13

       Right.

   18. LFLex Fridman5:14

       And...

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:14

       And she's offering him sex for money.

   20. LFLex Fridman5:16

       I... Yeah. That would... That's a, that's a beautiful moment too.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:19

       You think so?

   22. LFLex Fridman5:19

       I mean, it's beautiful. Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:20

       Really?

   24. LFLex Fridman5:20

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. The comedic-

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:21

       Isn't that, uh, that girl that used to be a hot mess? What's her name?

   26. YVYoung Jamie Vernon5:25

       Tara Reid.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:26

       Tara Reid? Yeah.

   28. YVYoung Jamie Vernon5:27

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       Is she still a hot mess or did she get her shit together?

   30. YVYoung Jamie Vernon5:30

       She's been, like, Shark- the Sharknado series is, uh, what she's been doing recently.
3. 6:49 – 8:12

   From John Wick to Fedor: authenticity, physiques, and combat mythology

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:49

      You didn't like John Wick though, huh?

   2. LFLex Fridman6:51

      Never seen it.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:52

      Whoa.

   4. LFLex Fridman6:53

      Never seen it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:54

      It's a good m- (clears throat) Excuse me. It's a good movie to watch on the treadmill.

   6. LFLex Fridman6:59

      Is, uh, is he playing a Russian mobster in that?

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:01

      (coughs) No. He kills a bunch of them, though. And he speaks Russian.

   8. LFLex Fridman7:05

      Oh, boy.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:05

      And he works for the Russians, kills people for the Russians.

   10. LFLex Fridman7:09

       You know, Keanu Reeves is one of the greatest human beings ever.

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:11

       You think so?

   12. LFLex Fridman7:12

       Yeah, he's like the nicest guy, yeah. I ever-

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:14

       I heard he's a really nice guy, but, uh, he plays a badass gangster. I would've liked him to be a little bit more fit, work out a little bit more. I just see him without a shirt on, and I'm like, "Hmm, not quite buying it." (sniffs) But that's okay. (laughs) Average man. Yeah, but the average man's not the fucking best assassin of all time.

   14. LFLex Fridman7:30

       (sniffs) Good point.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:31

       With all this martial arts skill. Like, what-

   16. LFLex Fridman7:33

       Fedor?

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:35

       Yeah, but Fedor's big. Fedor might have, like, a, a gut, but he's a thick motherfucker.

   18. LFLex Fridman7:42

       Okay, what about, uh-

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:42

       Especially young Fedor. You ever see young Fedor when he was in his prime? Like back when he fought, like, Fujita? Like back when, uh... There's a picture of Fedor standing around with a bunch of kettlebells. You ever see that picture?

   20. LFLex Fridman7:54

       Nope.

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:55

       That was Fedor in his lifting days. I suspect, and this is coming from... Th- that's, that's one when Fedor was fairly young, up there. But that's, uh... That's not the one I'm talking about. No, no, no. You know that one with the kettlebells? Yeah. Is that picture up? It's in the laptop. See if you can find that picture.

   22. LFLex Fridman8:10

       Never a six-pack in sight.

4. 8:12 – 17:08

   Steroids, EPO, and what “cheating” means in dangerous sports

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:12

      No. No six-pack. But, um, s- I suspect that Fedor might have been on some performance-enhancing substances during his prime.

   2. LFLex Fridman8:21

      You mean, like, hard training, lots of drilling, technique, uh, a set of strategy?

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:26

      Steroids. Steroids.

   4. LFLex Fridman8:26

      Ah, how dare you, sir.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:28

      Dude, he was in Pride. Everybody was on steroids.

   6. LFLex Fridman8:30

      Man.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:31

      Yeah, that's him.

   8. LFLex Fridman8:32

      I can-

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:32

      Look at him. That's him in his prime.

   10. LFLex Fridman8:34

       Hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:34

       That's a big motherfucker. Now, I do not know if he was on anything, but everybody else was. I mean, literally everybody. F- they, they ha- they had it in their contract that you w- we will not test for steroids. You know, Enson Inoue told me that they, like, essentially encouraged people to take steroids.

   12. LFLex Fridman8:52

       Yeah, the Pride days. That's right, but-

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:53

       Yeah, and it's not like Russians don't have a, a long history of using performance-enhancing substances. You... I'm sure you saw that movie, um, uh-

   14. LFLex Fridman9:01

       Icarus.

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:02

       ... Icarus? Did you see it?

   16. LFLex Fridman9:03

       Yep.

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:03

       Fascinating, right?

   18. LFLex Fridman9:04

       It's, it's, uh, it's fascinating. I, I mean, I, I don't... Uh, steroids often feel to me like a bit of a witch hunt. Uh, oftentimes you assume people are on steroids. I'm a bit of a... Maybe I'm naive or an optimist, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. But Icarus obviously proves (laughs) that, that everybody was-

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:24

       Yeah, Icarus kind of throws a monkey wrench into those gears.

   20. LFLex Fridman9:28

       But, you know, with, uh, with Fedor, I... The technique on that-

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:32

       (coughs) Oh, yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman9:33

       ... the, the technique, the execution, the timing, the brilliance of his movement-

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:36

       Oh, yeah. No doubt, no doubt.

   24. LFLex Fridman9:37

       ... the heart, the guts.

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:38

       No, he was phenomenal.

   26. LFLex Fridman9:39

       Yeah, I-

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:39

       He's one of, if not the greatest heavyweight of all time, he's certainly one of them.

   28. LFLex Fridman9:42

       And I don't think steroids would help that guy.

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:44

       Yes, they do. They help.

   30. LFLex Fridman9:45

       Okay.
5. 17:08 – 19:05

   Ultra-endurance grit and Lex’s “can’t quit” mindset

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:08

      It's a different s- sort of thing, you know? And, you know? The thing about ultra-marathon runners is they don't even test them.

   2. LFLex Fridman17:15

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:15

      'Cause they're like, "Good luck." Look, look, you ... Those people have iron wills.

   4. LFLex Fridman17:19

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:19

      Like, I don't know if ... Like, Courtney Dauwalter is a woman who-

   6. LFLex Fridman17:22

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:22

      You know who she is?

   8. LFLex Fridman17:23

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:23

      No, uh, she's been in here. She eats candy. She drinks beer, eats candy and pizza.

   10. LFLex Fridman17:27

       That doesn't make sense.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       Yeah. I mean, she's just got a fucking iron will.

   12. LFLex Fridman17:31

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:31

       Her, her will is indomitable. And y- you could take all the steroids you want, when you're running for three days, that chick is gonna beat you. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman17:40

       (laughs) She just doesn't know how to quit.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:42

       Yeah.

   16. LFLex Fridman17:42

       Like, just, just has no quit in her.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:43

       Did you see the podcast with her-

   18. LFLex Fridman17:45

       Yep.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       ... where she talked about how she fell? She couldn't see.

   20. LFLex Fridman17:48

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:48

       She was in ... experiencing, uh, I think it was intraocular hemorrhaging.

   22. LFLex Fridman17:52

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:53

       So her, her eyeballs were bleeding internally. Something like that.

   24. LFLex Fridman17:56

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:57

       Where it was impeding her vision. She couldn't see. I would stop. I would stop running.

   26. LFLex Fridman18:02

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:02

       No, she fell 'cause she couldn't see, busted her head open, bleeding all down her face, keeps running. Barely c- barely can see her feet as she's running.

   28. LFLex Fridman18:11

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:11

       Keeps running.

   30. LFLex Fridman18:12

       I'm glad those people are out there.
6. 19:05 – 22:34

   MMA passion vs smart fighting: the beauty and cost of ‘throwing down’

   1. LFLex Fridman19:05

      Yeah. He, uh... I, last time I was on, I actually wanted to talk about the Zabid fight.

   2. JRJoe Rogan19:08

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman19:08

      'Cause I'm, I'm Russian.

   4. JRJoe Rogan19:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman19:10

      So I love the Russian way.

   6. JRJoe Rogan19:12

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman19:12

      But I also love the... I mean, Kyle, to me, represents like the American, he's like the Rocky. If you, if you remember that fight with, uh, against Zabid?

   8. JRJoe Rogan19:20

      Mm-hmm, sure. In the third round, he was winning.

   9. LFLex Fridman19:21

      I mean, that's the-

   10. JRJoe Rogan19:22

       I mean, yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman19:22

       ... the, the best of what martial arts is, MMA is, to me, is like, you have two s- technicians that just throw everything away.

   12. JRJoe Rogan19:32

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LFLex Fridman19:32

       Like, "Screw this."

   14. JRJoe Rogan19:33

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman19:33

       "I'm just gonna throw down."

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:35

       Well, Zabid had broken his hand. Broke his hand somewhere, I think, in the second round. So he was pretty compromised going into that third round, couldn't really fire back. And Kyle just has zero quit in him.

   17. LFLex Fridman19:45

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:45

       That guy's an animal.

   19. LFLex Fridman19:46

       Yeah. I mean, that's the most beautiful... You talk about, like, technical fights on the ground or technical striking, like, w- when, like, two technicians throw everything away, that's w- I'm, I'm sorry, but that's what is the b- uh, that I love the most about any kind of fighting, any kind of sport. It's-

   20. JRJoe Rogan20:01

       I enjoy it in the moment. I discourage it heavily. I don't think it's a smart way to fight.

   21. LFLex Fridman20:06

       Yeah. Well, that's prob-

   22. JRJoe Rogan20:07

       But I get it.

   23. LFLex Fridman20:08

       That's probably your job, because-

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:09

       Well, it's not just my job. It's like, I, what I like. Like, I get, I get the impulse, but I don't want people to give into the impulse. I think fighting is something that you should do correctly. You should d- you should d- there's, there's principles that you should follow to fight correctly. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't take chances.

   25. LFLex Fridman20:31

       S-

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:31

       But, you know, there's moments like, um, um, Ricardo Lamas.

   27. LFLex Fridman20:37

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:38

       When, uh, he fought, uh, Max Holloway, and they just stood in the center of the ring for the last few seconds of the fight. And Max Holloway pointed down at the ground.

   29. LFLex Fridman20:47

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:48

       And he's like, "Come on, right here, right here." And they just started swinging haymakers.
7. 22:34 – 32:03

   Tesla Autopilot realities: vigilance, deaths, and the ‘when it fails’ warning

   1. LFLex Fridman22:34

      For sure. I don't wanna miss, I don't wanna miss stuff. I mean, there's, uh, there's been a lot of exciting stuff on the autonomous vehicle space, uh-

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:41

      Since you came on, I got a Tesla.

   3. LFLex Fridman22:43

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:43

      And I've experienced what that thing is like-

   5. LFLex Fridman22:45

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:45

      ... when I put it on autopilot, and it's stunning.

   7. LFLex Fridman22:48

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:48

      It's crazy. I mean, this, it's the future.

   9. LFLex Fridman22:50

      In, in terms of the performance of the vehicle?

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:51

       It's amazing. Well, in, in terms of its ability to change lanes and its ability to drive without you doing anything. I just put my hand on the wheel and hold it there and it does all the work.

   11. LFLex Fridman23:02

       So because, like, one or two people listen to this podcast, I wanna take this opportunity and tell people, if you drive a Tesla, whether you listen to this now or a year from now or two years from now, Tesla or any other car, keep your damn eyes on the road. So whatever you think the system is able to do, you will have to still monitor the road.

   12. JRJoe Rogan23:24

       Yes.

   13. LFLex Fridman23:24

       And you will still have to take over when it fails.

   14. JRJoe Rogan23:28

       If.

   15. LFLex Fridman23:30

       When.

   16. JRJoe Rogan23:30

       Really?

   17. LFLex Fridman23:32

       So...

   18. JRJoe Rogan23:33

       (coughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman23:34

       (laughs) We're throwing... We're... This is, like, the moment we're throwing down, right? No, I, I think it's incor-

   20. JRJoe Rogan23:40

       No, this is your level of expertise, obviously.

   21. LFLex Fridman23:42

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan23:42

       I mean, I'm not throwing down with you on this.

   23. LFLex Fridman23:44

       No, I- I think it's really important to, uh, in this transitionary phase, whatever the car company, uh, whatever the system, that we don't over-trust the system. We don't become complacent. We don't think it can do more than it can. There are currently 40,000 people die in the United States from, from fatal crashes. The number one reason for that is distraction, so texting, smartphones.

   24. JRJoe Rogan24:06

       How much has it gone up since smartphones?

   25. LFLex Fridman24:09

       People don't exactly... They're trying to understand that. Uh, there's a lot of studies showing that it's significant increases, but it's hard to say it's because of smartphones. But it's almost obvious.

   26. JRJoe Rogan24:20

       Hmm.

   27. LFLex Fridman24:20

       I mean-

   28. JRJoe Rogan24:20

       Yeah, it's pretty obvious.

   29. LFLex Fridman24:21

       The, the flip side is even though everybody's now using a smartphone, texting, so on, they've become better at using the smartphone. So they're better at texting and driving.

   30. JRJoe Rogan24:32

       Ugh.
8. 32:03 – 54:00

   Sensors and strategy: cameras vs LiDAR, data scale, and edge-case learning

   1. LFLex Fridman32:03

      No, we converted it, and, uh, we, that's the, our code r- controlling the car.

   2. JRJoe Rogan32:08

      Wow.

   3. LFLex Fridman32:09

      And I'm playing with it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:10

      That is crazy.

   5. LFLex Fridman32:11

      Yep.

   6. JRJoe Rogan32:12

      So you converted this car to drive autonomously?

   7. LFLex Fridman32:15

      Autonomously, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:16

      Wow.

   9. LFLex Fridman32:17

      So it's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       And what, what exactly do you have to do to a car to change, like c- because that car does not have the capa- the capacity to do anything like that.

   11. LFLex Fridman32:29

       So the-

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:30

       Right?

   13. LFLex Fridman32:30

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:30

       Am I correct?

   15. LFLex Fridman32:31

       No. No, no, no. Absolutely not. But, uh, you are absolutely correct. The, there's the first part is being able to control the car with a computer, which is converting it to be drive-by-wire. So you can control the steering and the brake and the acceleration to, to basically be able to control with a joystick.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:47

       And then you have to put laser sensors all around the car? Is that what you're doing?

   17. LFLex Fridman32:50

       Any kind of sensor, uh, and, uh, software. So-

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:53

       What's the best kind of sensor?

   19. LFLex Fridman32:54

       Uh-

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:54

       Is it optical, laser?

   21. LFLex Fridman32:56

       ... a lot of debate on this.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:57

       Ah.

   23. LFLex Fridman32:57

       And this is the big, this is the throw down between Elon Musk and everybody else.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:01

       Oh, okay.

   25. LFLex Fridman33:01

       So Elon Musk says the best sensor's camera. E- everybody else, well, everybody else says that at this time, LiDAR, which are these lasers-

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:10

       Yes.

   27. LFLex Fridman33:10

       ... is the best sensor. So, uh, I'm more on the side, uh, in this case on camera, on Elon Musk. So here's the difference. Lasers are more precise. They work better in, in, uh, poor lighting conditions. They're more reliable. You can actually build safe systems today that use LiDAR. The problem is that they don't have very much information. So we use our eyes to drive. And, uh, cameras, the same thing. And they have just a lot more information. So if you're going to build artificial intelligence systems or machine learning systems that learn from huge amounts of data, camera is the way to go, because you can learn so much more, you can see so much more. So the, the richer, deeper sensor is camera. But it's much harder. You have to collect a huge amount of data. It's a little bit more futuristic, so it's longer term solution. So today, to build a safe vehicle, you have to go LiDAR. Tomorrow, however you define tomorrow, Elon Musk says it's in a year, others say it's 5, 10, 20 years, camera is the way to go.

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:13

       Mm.

   29. LFLex Fridman34:14

       So that's, that's the, the hard debate. And there's, there's a lot of other debates, but that's one of the core ones. It's basically, for camera, you, if you go camera like you do in the Tesla, there's seven cameras in your Tesla.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:26

       Mm-hmm.
9. 54:00 – 1:11:46

   Driver monitoring and competing systems: Cadillac Super Cruise vs Tesla

   1. JRJoe Rogan54:00

      Now outside of Tesla, how many other companies have autonomous systems that are driving their cars?

   2. LFLex Fridman54:06

      So maybe it's good to step back. There's, there's several and there's several leaders in each different approach so first let's draw a line between the different types of systems there are.

   3. JRJoe Rogan54:17

      Okay.

   4. LFLex Fridman54:17

      One, there is fully autonomous vehicles. So these are cars you can think about that don't have a steering wheel or if they have a steering wheel, it doesn't matter, they're in full control and if there's a crash, the car company is liable. So-

   5. JRJoe Rogan54:30

      Do those exist?

   6. LFLex Fridman54:32

      No. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan54:34

      Okay.

   8. LFLex Fridman54:34

      Uh, s- i- it's, it's a gray area though because many companies are basically saying that that's what they're doing but they're not quite there. So the leader in that space is, uh, used to be called Google Self-Driving Car program, now it's called Waymo.... they are doing that. They're, it's called level four or level five. There's levels to this game.

   9. JRJoe Rogan54:57

      Hmm.

   10. LFLex Fridman54:57

       And this is this particular level where it's fully autonomous. Now, they're trying to achieve full autonomy but the way they're doing it currently is they're testing on public roads with what's called a safety driver. So there's a driver always ready to take over and the driver does have to take over at some rate, at- you know, n- frequently. And so the fact that the driver has to take over, that's not fully autonomous then, right? So there's no car today that you can just get in without a safety driver, so there's nobody behind the wheel, and, uh, using your app sort of get from point A to point B.

   11. JRJoe Rogan55:33

       Right. But out of the cars that are semi-autonomous, where there isn't an autonomous program but you do have to keep your hands on the wheel and p- pay attention to the road-

   12. LFLex Fridman55:41

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan55:42

       ... what, what are the leaders? Besides Tesla. There's Tesla and who else is doing it?

   14. LFLex Fridman55:46

       So there's, yep, uh, there's several systems. So it depends how you define leader but-

   15. JRJoe Rogan55:54

       So are they-

   16. LFLex Fridman55:55

       ... one of the-

   17. JRJoe Rogan55:55

       Let me ask you this.

   18. LFLex Fridman55:56

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan55:56

       Like does Mercedes and BMW-

   20. LFLex Fridman55:57

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan55:57

       ... they use the same system? Do they, does someone make a system for cars or do they create their own systems?

   22. LFLex Fridman56:03

       Yeah. The, that's a, that's a really good question. So there is in some cases there's Mobileye and NVIDIA, there's these companies that, uh-

   23. JRJoe Rogan56:11

       NVIDIA? The, the video card company?

   24. LFLex Fridman56:13

       Yeah. The video card company.

   25. JRJoe Rogan56:14

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LFLex Fridman56:14

       Yep. The sa- the same folks that power the Quake game, right?

   27. JRJoe Rogan56:17

       Right.

   28. LFLex Fridman56:18

       The, the graphics in the Quake game, you can use those GPU, graphics processing units, to run machine learning code.

   29. JRJoe Rogan56:25

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LFLex Fridman56:25

       And so they're also creating these-
10. 1:11:46 – 1:16:34

    Software safety culture: over-the-air updates, Boeing 737 MAX, and testing limits

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:11:46

       It's also a good point when it comes to software and updates, because isn't that part of the issue with this Boeing 737-

    2. LFLex Fridman1:11:52

       MAX system. Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:11:53

       Yeah, these systems that they've had problems with, th- they've been faulty and a couple have crashed.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:12:00

       Yeah, and th- that's a really good point, and they, they've, uh ... Yeah, there've been two tragic crashes recently-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:12:06

       Yeah.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:12:07

       ... with the, with the, with the MAX system and-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:12:08

       Yeah, they've benched those things, right? Haven't they?

    8. LFLex Fridman1:12:11

       I'm not following the, uh ... I'm-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:12:13

       They also got rid-

    10. LFLex Fridman1:12:14

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:12:14

        ... of a bunch of inspectors. I think they fired-

    12. LFLex Fridman1:12:16

        Yeah, there's-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:12:16

        ... like 80 inspectors today and the unions are freaking out.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:12:20

        Yep. And there's, there's ... O- obviously there's politics, the F- FAA is-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:12:24

        Sure.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:12:24

        I think FAA is supposed to supervise and they were, there was, there's a close relationship between Boeing and FAA, there's questions around ...

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:12:30

        Hmm.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:12:30

        I mean, there's better experts at that than me, but on the software side, it is worrying because it was a single software update, essentially, that helps prevent the, the vehicle, uh, the vehicle, the airplane from stalling. So if, if it's, uh, if the nose is tilting up, uh, increasing the chance of stalling, it's going to automate- automatically, uh, point the nose down, of the airplane. And the, the pilots in many cases, as far as I understand, weren't even informed of this update, right? That ... They weren't even told it's happening. The idea behind the update is that they're not supposed to really know, it's supposed to just manage the flight for you, right? The problem happened when there's a angle of attack sensor, so the sensor that tells you the actual-... tilt of the plane and there was a malfunction in that sensor, as far as I understand, in both planes. And so the plane didn't actually understand its orientation, so the system started freaking out and started pointing the nose down-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:13:28

        (clears throat)

    20. LFLex Fridman1:13:28

        ... aggressively. And the pilots were, like, trying to restabilize the plane and couldn't. So shortly after liftoff they just crashed.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:13:35

        Oh my God.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:13:37

        Yeah. It's, that's the software update.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:13:38

        That's crazy.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:13:40

        And that, that's, that's, that's a safety culture that's dealing with this new world of software that we don't know what to do with. You know, the- and, and yeah, it's a question. Uh, one way is to be sort of a little bit Luddite, I use the term carefully, and just be afraid and say, "You know what? We should really not allow so many software updates." The other one is sort of embracing it and redefining what it means to build safe AI systems in this modern world with updates multiple times a week.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:14:11

        What do you think?

    26. LFLex Fridman1:14:12

        100... No, so I'm 100% for the, um, for the software approach. So, uh, I think updates, regular updates, so combining the two cultures, but really letting good software engineering lead the way is the way to go. There is... I wish other companies were competing with Tesla on this. They're, on the software side, Tesla is far ahead of everyone else in, in the automotive sector and that's one of the problems. I, uh, I, I'm worried that... You know, competition is good, right? And I'm worried there's people way too far behind to actually give Tesla new ideas, out-compete Tesla on software. So most cars are not able to do over-the-air... As f- as far as I know, no cars are able to do major over-the-air updates, except Tesla vehicles.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

        Mm.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:15:06

        They, they do over-the-air updates to the entertainment system, like, you know, if your radio is malfunctioning. But in terms of the control of the vehicle, you have to go to the dealership to get an update. Uh, Tesla is the only one that over-the-air, like it can multiple times a week do the update. I think that should be a requirement for all car companies, but that requires that they rethink the way they build cars. That's really, that's really scary when you manufacture over a million cars a year in Toyota and GM to say... Especially old school Detroit guys and gals that are, like, legit car people to say, "We need to hire some software engineering." That's a challenge. It's a totally... You know, it... I don't know how often you've been to Detroit, but there's a culture difference between Detroit and Silicon Valley and those two have to come together to solve this problem. To have like the adult responsibility, uh, of Detroit of how to do production well, manufacture, how to do safety well, how to test the vehicles well, and do the bold, crazy, innovative spirit of Silicon Valley which Elon Musk in basically every way represents. And that, I think that will define the future of these, of, uh, actually AI in general. I mean, interacting with AI systems just even outside the automotive sector requires these questions of safety, of AI safety, of how we supervise the system, how we manage them from misbehaving and so on.

Episode duration: 3:00:15