Joe Rogan Experience #1292 - Lex Fridman

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Ready? Boom, and we're…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Ready? Boom, and we're live. Hello, Lex.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:05

      Hey.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      What's going on?

   4. LFLex Fridman0:06

      The sequel, part two.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      You got -- you have, uh, a very similar, if not the exact same, suit on.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:11

      This is all I wear.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      You look very professional.

   8. LFLex Fridman0:13

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Very, um, Reservoir Dogs.

   10. LFLex Fridman0:16

       Reservoir Dogs?

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:17

       Let's just-

   12. LFLex Fridman0:17

       Well, let's go to the best sequel of all time, Godfather Part II. That's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       Is that the best sequel of all time? I think John Wick might be. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman0:23

       Haven't seen John Wick. (laughs)

   15. YVYoung Jamie Vernon0:25

       Same suit.

   16. LFLex Fridman0:25

       How dare you, sir?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman0:28

       Godfather Part II, I mean, that's... That has to be the best sequel.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Okay.

   20. LFLex Fridman0:33

       Then, and if- if this is Godfather Part II, let's definitely not do Part III.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Yeah, Part III was terrible, right?

   22. LFLex Fridman0:39

       Well, let's- let's not offend anyone, but it was not up to par.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       It wasn't as good.

   24. LFLex Fridman0:43

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah. I don't remember it.

   26. LFLex Fridman0:45

       It was, uh, the older Pacino.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Oh, yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman0:48

       With that deeper voice.

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Oh, though, ooh, that was, like, way later, right?

   30. LFLex Fridman0:51

       Yeah. That was '90s.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   So- …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      hormones. That's the real problem. And, and for young people, that can be very devastating. And it can lead to depression and suicidal thoughts and all, all, all sorts of really bad things when your testosterone shuts down. But as far as, like, death, boy, I mean, th- there's m- ... People are prescribed pain pills every day of the week. And fighters that are on injuries, uh, that have been s- ... you know, that have gotten surgery. They're, they're prescribed pain pills every day of the week. And those pain pills kill people left and right. That's just a fact. People die of those things all the time, much more so than die of steroids.

   2. LFLex Fridman15:36

      So-

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:36

      And I'm not a- ... I'm not advocating for the use of steroids.

   4. LFLex Fridman15:38

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:38

      I'm just ... I'm, I'm, I'm being pretty objective and neutral about this, but I'm just looking at it like it is a ... It's a very messy subject.

   6. LFLex Fridman15:46

      Yeah, it's very eloquently put, but ... So y- so your problem in terms of damaging the opponent is if one side takes steroids-

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:53

      Yes.

   8. LFLex Fridman15:53

      ... and the other doesn't.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      Exactly.

   10. LFLex Fridman15:54

       What happens if both take steroids?

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:56

       The problem is you would require someone to do that, that they ... Maybe someone's a holistic person, they don't want to introduce any unnatural, exogenous steroids into their body and hormones into their body. They, they want, they want everything to be produced by the human body. They wanna, they wanna eat healthy food-

   12. LFLex Fridman16:14

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       ... train hard, sleep well, and compete naturally.

   14. LFLex Fridman16:16

       Yeah, yeah. I C.T. Fletcher here yesterday, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:18

       Yes.

   16. LFLex Fridman16:18

       He's a natural bodybuilder.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:20

       Yes.

   18. LFLex Fridman16:20

       Or not bodybuilder.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       Powerlifter.

   20. LFLex Fridman16:22

       Powerlifter.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       Yeah, yeah. And-

   22. LFLex Fridman16:23

       But that's not required, right? This is ... You're not requiring people, you're giving them the choice. So, uh, y- ... You know, it's an interesting possibility where in moderation, you'll be able to allow steroids in future of athletics.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:37

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LFLex Fridman16:37

       Because with an argument that if in, in done in moderation, you can actually create healthier athletes.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Yeah, that's ... I mean, that's a real argument for the Tour de France. The Tour de France, they say that you actually are better off and healthier taking steroids-

   26. LFLex Fridman16:51

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       ... and EPO than you are doing it without it, 'cause it's so unbelievably-

   28. LFLex Fridman16:55

       It's torture.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       ... grueling on the body.

   30. LFLex Fridman16:57

       Yeah. I mean, those athletes are basically some of the best people in the world at suffering.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Oh, yeah? …

   1. LFLex Fridman30:00

      song, uh, Black Betty.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:02

      Oh, yeah?

   3. LFLex Fridman30:02

      And I got... I played-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      (sings)

   5. LFLex Fridman30:04

      Yeah, yeah. I played the damn song, but they, they said it was, it wasn't... They did exactly that. Like, uh, the actual-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:10

      Oh, they said it was-

   7. LFLex Fridman30:11

      Ram Jam or whatever-

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:12

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman30:12

      ... they said it was there. And I may have borrowed the beat behind it from them, I'm not sure.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:18

       Mm. Oh, that could be it.

   11. LFLex Fridman30:19

       I just took a beat like doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:20

       Yeah. Well, that's what I was thinking about that song. Like, it sounded like there was other shit going on besides just your guitar.

   13. LFLex Fridman30:27

       ... mm, oh, no. That's all me. Really? That's all me at the back

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:30

       Let me hear that again. That's really good, man. You sound good. That's a great fucking song too. Comfortably Numb.

   15. LFLex Fridman30:35

       So, you know, the scariest thing for me- What? ... was to play guitar on this podcast. So it's like, going back and forth. Oh, really? Should I do it? Should I do, not do it? And so-

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:43

       Actually play, Play, Play?

   17. LFLex Fridman30:45

       Actually play.

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       The only, there was only a few people that have ever played Play. Everlast.

   19. LFLex Fridman30:48

       Everlast.

   20. JRJoe Rogan30:48

       Um, Ben and Suzanne from Honey Honey. Uh, Gary Clark didn't, right? He just came on and talked.

   21. LFLex Fridman30:53

       No.

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       He brought his guitar.

   23. LFLex Fridman30:55

       I wanted to play Hendrix here.

   24. JRJoe Rogan30:57

       Really?

   25. LFLex Fridman30:57

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:58

       Live?

   27. LFLex Fridman30:58

       Live.

   28. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       You got it right, with you right now?

   29. LFLex Fridman31:01

       No, uh, the guitar?

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:01

       In the future?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   That, that's ... I…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

   2. LFLex Fridman45:00

      That, that's ... I mean, w- no matter what happens, he'll be remembered as a great innovators of our time. Uh, whatever you say, maybe s- in my book, Steve Jobs was as well. Even if you criticize perhaps that he hasn't contributed significantly to the technological development of the company or the different ideas they did, still, his brilliance was in all the products, of iPhone, of the, the personal computer, the Mac, and so on. And I think the same is true with, uh, with, uh, with Elon. And yes, there's ... In this space of autonomous vehicles, of, of semi-autonomous vehicles, of driver assistance systems, it's a pretty tense space to operate in. There's several communities in there that are very responsible but also aggressive in their criticism.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:48

      Mm.

   4. LFLex Fridman45:48

      And so in driving, in the automotive sector, obviously, since Henry Ford and before, there's been, uh, a culture of safety, of just great engineering. These are, like, some of the best engineers in the world in terms of large-scale production. You talk about Toyota, you talk about Ford, GM, these people know how to do safety well. And so here comes Elon with Silicon Valley ideals that throws a lot of it out the window and says, "We're gonna revolutionize the way we do au- automation in general. We're going to make software updates to the car once a week, twice a week, over the air, just like that."

   5. JRJoe Rogan46:27

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LFLex Fridman46:28

      That makes people in, uh, the safety engineers and human factors engineers really uncomfortable. Like, "What do you mean you're going to keep updating the software of the car without ... Like, how are you testing it?" All right? That makes people really uncomfortable.

   7. JRJoe Rogan46:41

      Why does it make them uncomfortable?

   8. LFLex Fridman46:43

      Because the way in the automotive sector you test the system-

   9. JRJoe Rogan46:46

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LFLex Fridman46:46

       ... y- you, you come up with a design of the car, every component, and then you go through, like, really rigorous testing before it ever hits the road. Right? Here's an idea from ... on the, uh, the Tesla side is where they basically ... They, in shadow mode, test the software, but then they just release it. So essentially, the drivers become the testing.

   11. JRJoe Rogan47:07

       Mm-hmm.

   12. LFLex Fridman47:08

       And then they regularly update it to, uh, to, uh, to adjust a- if any issues arise. That makes people uncomfortable because there's not a standardized testing procedure. There's not, there's not at least a feeling in the industry of rigor. Because the reality is we don't know how to test software in the same kind of ... with the same kind of rigor that we've tested automotive system, tested automotive system in the past. So, I think it's extremely exciting and powerful to make software sort of approach, uh, automotive engineering with, at least in part, a software engineering perspective, so just doing what's made Silicon Valley successful, so updating regularly, aggressively innovating on the software side.

   13. JRJoe Rogan47:54

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LFLex Fridman47:55

       So your Tesla over the air, while we're sitting here, could get a totally new update.

   15. JRJoe Rogan47:59

       Right.

   16. LFLex Fridman47:59

       With a flip of, uh, uh, of a bit, as Elon Musk says, uh, it can be ... It can gain all new capabilities. That's really exciting, but that's also dangerous. And that, that balance w- we, uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan48:13

       Well, what's dangerous about it, that it be faulty software?

   18. LFLex Fridman48:16

       Faulty, a bug. So if your, your, uh ... the apps in your phone, you know, fail all the time. We're, as a society, used to software failing-

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:26

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LFLex Fridman48:26

       ... and we just kinda reboot the device or restart the app. Uh, most complex software systems in, in the world today, if we think outside of nuclear engineering and so on, they're really ... nobody ... the- they're too complex to really thoroughly test. So, uh, thorough, complete testing-... proving that the software is safe is nearly impossible on most software systems. That, that's ex- that's, uh, that's nerve-wracking to a lot of people because, uh, y- this, th- there's no way to prove that the new software update is safe.

   21. JRJoe Rogan49:03

       So what i- what is the process? Like s- do you know like how they create software, they update it, and then they test it on something? How much testing do they do and what, how much do they do before they upload it to your car?

   22. LFLex Fridman49:18

       Yeah, so I don't have any insider information but I have a lot of sort of public available information which is, uh, they, uh, they test the software in shadow mode, meaning they see how the new software compares to the current software by running it in parallel on the cars and seeing if there's disagreements, if like, uh, seeing if there's any major disagreements and bringing those up and seeing what-

   23. JRJoe Rogan49:42

       By parallel, I'm sorry, do you, do you mean b- both programs running at the same time?

   24. LFLex Fridman49:47

       Uh, one, the original up ... yes, at the same time, the original update actually controlling the car.

   25. JRJoe Rogan49:53

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LFLex Fridman49:53

       And the new update is, uh, just-

   27. JRJoe Rogan49:58

       Making the same decisions?

   28. LFLex Fridman49:59

       Making the same decisions without them being actuated.

   29. JRJoe Rogan50:02

       Without affecting the actu- okay.

   30. LFLex Fridman50:03

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      do that?

   2. LFLex Fridman1:00:00

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      They, they've developed these clamps that you just put on the steering wheel and it'll hold a phone and it'll also trick the system into thinking that you're holding onto the wheel.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:00:08

      Yeah. You could do... A lot of purses actually work really well. Don't ask me how I know this.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:12

      Hanging a purse?

   6. LFLex Fridman1:00:13

      No, like shoving a purse into the-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

      Oh, really?

   8. LFLex Fridman1:00:15

      ... into the...

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

      Somebody did that with an orange or something like that-

   10. LFLex Fridman1:00:18

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

       ... but they said it didn't work. Maybe it needs to be all the way around the outside of it?

   12. LFLex Fridman1:00:22

       I think it depends on the shape of the orange, how ripe it is, there's, there's a lot of debate as-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

       (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman1:00:27

       No, I, the point is this, ways to trick the system.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:29

       Right.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:00:29

       There's the, uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:30

       It's not monitoring the driver, that's the point, right?

   18. LFLex Fridman1:00:32

       Yeah. It's not monitoring the driver and a lot of people believe you need to, uh, monitor-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

       You, you think you need to. Makes sense.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:00:38

       Yeah. I think, I think, uh, not just for the safety of the system but to create an experience, like, uh, I think there's value for the car to know more about you.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:00:50

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:00:51

       Uh, sort of just like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:00:52

       Look at that. What's happening there? It's s- scanning this guy's eyes.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:00:55

       (laughs) Uh, it's-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       That's some Minority Report shit.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:00:58

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:00:58

       Freaks me out.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:01:00

       So, yeah, there's a lot of companies that are springing up. They're doing computer vision on the face and so on to try to detect where you're looking. ...

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

       So what cars have that now?

   30. LFLex Fridman1:01:08

       ... cognitive look. The, uh, the, the major one is the Super Cruise system. There's not many cars. A few cars are starting to add it. Europe, uh-
6. 1:15:00 – 1:16:34

   Mm. …

   1. LFLex Fridman1:15:00

      As f- as far as I know, no cars are able to do major over-the-air updates, except Tesla vehicles.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

      Mm.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:15:06

      They, they do over-the-air updates to the entertainment system, like, you know, if your radio is malfunctioning. But in terms of the control of the vehicle, you have to go to the dealership to get an update. Uh, Tesla is the only one that over-the-air, like it can multiple times a week do the update. I think that should be a requirement for all car companies, but that requires that they rethink the way they build cars. That's really, that's really scary when you manufacture over a million cars a year in Toyota and GM to say... Especially old school Detroit guys and gals that are, like, legit car people to say, "We need to hire some software engineering." That's a challenge. It's a totally... You know, it... I don't know how often you've been to Detroit, but there's a culture difference between Detroit and Silicon Valley and those two have to come together to solve this problem. To have like the adult responsibility, uh, of Detroit of how to do production well, manufacture, how to do safety well, how to test the vehicles well, and do the bold, crazy, innovative spirit of Silicon Valley which Elon Musk in basically every way represents. And that, I think that will define the future of these, of, uh, actually AI in general. I mean, interacting with AI systems just even outside the automotive sector requires these questions of safety, of AI safety, of how we supervise the system, how we manage them from misbehaving and so on.

Episode duration: 3:00:15