Joe Rogan Experience #1294 - Jamie Metzl

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Boom, and we're live.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Boom, and we're live. Hello, sir. How are you?

   2. JMJamie Metzl0:05

      Hey.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      Good to see you, man. You look great.

   4. JMJamie Metzl0:06

      I'm great. How are you? Nice to see you. Thanks.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      What? You, you were eating chocolate when you got here, and you told me that you are a cacao shaman. And I said, "Those are strong words."

   6. JMJamie Metzl0:14

      They are.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      What does that mean?

   8. JMJamie Metzl0:15

      So, I was in Berlin last year giving a talk at a tech conference, and somebody invited me to a sacred cacao ceremony.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      Mm. Mm.

   10. JMJamie Metzl0:21

       Never heard of it, and I thought, "Wow, that sounds awesome. I love chocolate." I went, it was so wonderful, and at the end, they were talking about these people, these great cacao shamans. And I thought, "What is that? I gotta be one of those."

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       (laughs)

   12. JMJamie Metzl0:33

       And so I came back, I looked for certification. There wasn't certification. I self-declared, and then I started doing, uh, cacao ceremonies in New York. Now I have hundreds of people who come. It's really wonderful and it's exciting.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Like, if you wanna be a doctor, you gotta go to medical school, right?

   14. JMJamie Metzl0:48

       Yeah. That, that's-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       If you wanna be a comedian, you gotta be a, become a professional, you gotta put in your time.

   16. JMJamie Metzl0:51

       Cacao shaman, just show up.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       (laughs) Just, just declare it.

   18. JMJamie Metzl0:53

       It's like putting up a shingle, "Hey, I'm a cacao shaman." If anybody shows up and they have a good time, then you're real.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Now how much do you need to know about cacao, like the nutritional properties of it?

   20. JMJamie Metzl1:02

       Well, cacao is amazing.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       It's great stuff.

   22. JMJamie Metzl1:04

       It's incredible. And, and so definitely cacao, and people have been using it ceremonially for about 5,000 years, um, so it's incredible. Um, chocolate makes people happy. It helps your brain function, your circulation. I mean, there's all these kinds of incredible things. But in the ceremonies that I do, I have two key messages. One is, you are the drug. I mean, we all take, people take drugs, people take ayahuasca or in psilocybin, all these kinds of things. But I also think that we have, for the things that we take drugs for, this kind of release and happiness and joy, we have those things inside of us, and we just kinda get out of our way, we can experience them. And the second thing is, I believe that there are no, and I say this in my ceremonies, there's no such thing as sacred cacao or sacred plants or sacred mountains or sacred people if we don't treat life with sacredness. But if we recognize that everything is sacred-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:55

       Mm.

   24. JMJamie Metzl1:55

       ... then we infuse life with sacredness and, and meaning, and that's, anyway, that's why I do it. It's a lot of fun.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:00

       That's very interesting from a guy who specializes essentially in manipulating life.

   26. JMJamie Metzl2:06

       Well, you know, we have manipulated life as humans for a very, very long time.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       Oh, for sure. But it's i-, but it's interesting.

   28. JMJamie Metzl2:12

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       You know, the idea of things being sacred, but your specialty is manipulating genetics, right? I mean-

   30. JMJamie Metzl2:18

       Yeah, well, so that is this strange moment that we're in-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Like, what can they…

   1. JMJamie Metzl15:00

      to living humans, that's already here.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      Like, what can they do with it so far?

   3. JMJamie Metzl15:03

      So, so far, most of it is focused on treating diseases. Um, but a lot more is, uh, is coming. Because when people think about the, the human, the genome, our genome isn't a disease genome, it's not a healthcare genome, genome, it's a human genome. And so we are going to be able to do things that feel like cr- crazy things, like changing people's eye color, changing people's skin color to funky things. I mean, there's a lot of, of re- that we're- stuff that we're not doing now that we will be, uh, be able to do. And then-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:31

      How far away do you think we are from something like that?

   5. JMJamie Metzl15:34

      10 years?

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      So in 10 years, we're gonna have green people?

   7. JMJamie Metzl15:37

      If in-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:38

      If someone so chooses?

   9. JMJamie Metzl15:39

      Yeah, if someone so chooses and if it's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:40

       What if it sucks, will they be able to go back to normal color?

   11. JMJamie Metzl15:42

       Well, if it's... (laughs) That's a good question. Um, if it's with this kind of gene therapy, and it's a small number of genes, probably, but we are messing with very complex systems that we don't fully understand.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:54

       Hmm.

   13. JMJamie Metzl15:54

       And so that's why there's a lot of unknowns. And coming back to your point on regulation, that's why we t- I don't think we want a total free-for-all, where people say, "Hey, I'm gonna-"

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       Of course not.

   15. JMJamie Metzl16:01

       "... edit my own genes."

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       Yeah. You don't want some backyard hustler-

   17. JMJamie Metzl16:06

       Yeah, it's true. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       ... to a lab. (laughs)

   19. JMJamie Metzl16:08

       It's true, because like you're saying about the Hulk.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:10

       Yeah.

   21. JMJamie Metzl16:10

       I mean, I just think that there are all kinds of... You know, we're humans, we're diverse, any kind of thing that you can think of, there is a range.

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       Yeah.

   23. JMJamie Metzl16:16

       And there's th- you know, crazy on the left and crazy on the right and crazy on the top. And so people are gonna want to do things.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JMJamie Metzl16:22

       And the question is, with any society, what do we think is okay and what do we think is not okay? And, and maybe there should be some, I, I believe, there should be some limit to how far people can go with experimenting, uh, certainly, possibly likely on themselves, but certainly on their future children.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:41

       Certainly on their future children.

   27. JMJamie Metzl16:42

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       Yeah. But once you're 18, I think do whatever the fuck you want. If you really... Well, maybe 25.

   29. JMJamie Metzl16:47

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       25... (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   D- are they capable…

   1. JMJamie Metzl30:00

      you're as genet- naturally genetic enhanced as somebody else. It's complicated.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      D- are they capable of doing certain-... physical enhancements through gene doping right now?

   3. JMJamie Metzl30:09

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:10

      And pr- like, what can they do right now?

   5. JMJamie Metzl30:11

      Yeah. No, no. So, so the way it works is, so your, your genes instruct your cells to make proteins. That's, that's it's, that's how the whole system works. So you can change genes or you can trigger the expression of proteins. So you can get people's bodies to behave as if they had the, uh, these-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:32

      Superior genes.

   7. JMJamie Metzl30:32

      ... genetic optimization. Yeah, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:34

      Yeah.

   9. JMJamie Metzl30:34

      And so that's why now the, the World Anti-Doping, uh, Agency, I mean, they are now starting to look at gene doping. And this is the first time, uh, that that's, that, that's even being considered as a category. And then there are, a-

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:46

       Have there people that have done that? Are there people that have done that successfully?

   11. JMJamie Metzl30:50

       You know, I don't know the answer to that.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:51

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JMJamie Metzl30:51

       I know that WADA is looking for it, which makes me assume that it must have done, but I haven't seen. I've looked for it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:58

       Yeah.

   15. JMJamie Metzl30:58

       But I haven't seen any reports yet.

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       If China starts winning everything.

   17. JMJamie Metzl31:01

       Well, China is w- so, so might, I wrote my, um, one of my sci-fi novels, Genesis Code, was about this. So China, as you know, has their system of their Olympic sports schools. And the way it works is they test kids all around the country. So let's just say it's, it's diving. And they identify what are the core skills of a diver? What do you need? And then they go around the country and they test kids, and then they bring a bunch of them to their Olympic sports schools. Uh, and then they, you know, they get them all involved, and then some kids are the best of those kids, and then the best of those kids, and then you get these champs. That's why China advanced so, uh, so rapidly. But what happens if they're doing that, but it's at the genetic level?

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:40

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JMJamie Metzl31:40

       And there are countries like Kazakhstan that are already announcing that they are going to be screening all of their athletes. So the, the science isn't there yet. So it's really, it's impossible right now to say, uh, well, I'm gonna do a genome sequence of somebody and I know this person has the potential to be an Olympic sprinter. But 10 years from now, that's not going to be the case.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       Wow. Yeah, it's sort of gonna throw a monkey wrench in the whole idea of what is fair when it comes to-

   21. JMJamie Metzl32:05

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:05

       ... athletics.

   23. JMJamie Metzl32:07

       Yeah. What is fair? What is human?

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:08

       Right. What is human? Yeah.

   25. JMJamie Metzl32:09

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:10

       I mean, look, it's not like people don't already alter their bodies by training, by diet, exercise, all sorts of different recovery modalities-

   27. JMJamie Metzl32:21

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       ... cryotherapy-

   29. JMJamie Metzl32:22

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:22

       ... sauna.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JMJamie Metzl45:00

      now is the future of our entire species and our democracy and our lives. And we have to be focusing on those things because we have a moment now where we can, to a certain extent, influence how these revolutions play out. And if we just wait around, if we're distracted and we're focusing on all this stuff that's sucking up our attention, and whether it's Trump or Brexit or Mueller and all these things, I mean, we're spent- how much of our time are we spending focus on? It's fine, let's pay a little bit of attention, but there's really big stuff. 50 years from now, 100 years from now, no one's gonna look back and now and say, "Oh, that was the age of Trump," or "That was the-"

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:36

      Yeah.

   3. JMJamie Metzl45:36

      They're gonna say, "That was the age when after s- almost 4 billion years of evolution, humans took control of their own evolutionary process," and it's huge, and it's gonna change all of life. And what I'm trying to do is to say, everybody has to have a seat at the table. Whether you're a- a- a c- conservative Christian, whether you're a- a biohacking trans-humanist, everybody needs to be at the- the table because we are talking about is the future of our species.

   4. JRJoe Rogan46:02

      We're talking about the future of our species, but are we even capable of understanding the consequences of these actions? This- this stuff that-

   5. JMJamie Metzl46:09

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:09

      ... we're discussing. Like, right now-

   7. JMJamie Metzl46:10

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:11

      ... I'm not. Like, I'm- I'm talking about it-

   9. JMJamie Metzl46:13

      Right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       ... but, uh, I mean, if someone said, "Hey, you've gotta go speak in front of people about the consequences of-"

   11. JMJamie Metzl46:18

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:18

       ... "in- in a very clear-"

   13. JMJamie Metzl46:20

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       "... one-hour presentation," I'd be like, "No, I'm not."

   15. JMJamie Metzl46:22

       Well-

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:23

       I don't know what I'm talking about.

   17. JMJamie Metzl46:23

       W- one, we can go together, so you're good.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:25

       Thank you.

   19. JMJamie Metzl46:26

       Um, but two, the reason why I've written this book, Hacking Darwin, is I wanted to say if you could read just one book and it's written just for everybody in a very clear way, with a lot of jokes that I think are funny, my mother laughed at them as well, that you get it. And then once you know just the basics as a human being, anybody, e- has an equal right to be part of this- of this conversation as the top scientist or the- the leaders of any- of any country. They-

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:52

       I would agree with you there-

   21. JMJamie Metzl46:53

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:53

       ... but I don't think that other people are going to see it that way. I think the people that are in control, they're not gonna say, "Hey, we need to find- we need to be fair with everyone, all the citizens-"

   23. JMJamie Metzl47:01

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:01

       "... of the world. How do you feel we should proceed?"

   25. JMJamie Metzl47:03

       No, but that's why we have to- that's why we need this bottom-up groundswell, but we can't have a bottom-up groundswell if people- if just general people aren't even aware of what the issues are. And that's-

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:14

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JMJamie Metzl47:14

       ... and that's the challenge and that's why forums like yours are s- are just so important. I mean, you have all these people. And then, you know, maybe everyone doesn't listen to this podcast and say, "All right, I get it, I can go give that hour-long speech," but you can read a couple books and then you can give an- an hour speech.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:30

       Yeah.

   29. JMJamie Metzl47:30

       Because the issues, like, yes, there are scientific issues, but this isn't a conversation about science. This is about values and ethics and our future, and it has to be a conversation for everybody.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:40

       Yeah, it's not just a scientific conversation.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:11:55

   It's gonna be that…

   1. JMJamie Metzl1:00:00

      And right now, we don't really have one really effective artificial intelligence algorithm, which is for pattern recognition. But you think, if you think of pattern recognition as a core skill of what our brains do, our brains probably have 1,000, 2,000 different skills. Um, but the core thing is whether we reach this singularity moment or not, these technologies are going to become incredibly more powerful. They're gonna become increasingly integrated into our lives and into our beings, and part of our evolutionary process. There's no longer, oh, we just have our biological evolution and our technological evolution. Those are separate things. They're connected.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

      It's gonna be that weird question of whether or not if, if an artificial intelligence is gonna be able to absorb all of the writing that human beings have ever done and really understand us.

   3. JMJamie Metzl1:00:46

      Right. Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:46

      Will they really still be able to understand us just because they get all the writing?

   5. JMJamie Metzl1:00:50

      So, right now, you would say no.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:52

      I'd say no, yeah.

   7. JMJamie Metzl1:00:53

      But 20 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now?

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

      They could come up with a reasonable facsimile. I mean-

   9. JMJamie Metzl1:00:59

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:00

       ... they could figure out a way to get it close enough-

   11. JMJamie Metzl1:01:03

       Yeah. I think that, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

       ... you know, where it's like her, like the-

   13. JMJamie Metzl1:01:05

       Yeah. Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

       Yeah.

   15. JMJamie Metzl1:01:06

       That's an es- essential point because I think when people imagine this AI future, they're imagining, like, some intimate relationship with some artificial intelligi- intelligence that feels just like a human.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:17

       Yeah.

   17. JMJamie Metzl1:01:17

       I don't think that's gonna happen because it's, it's-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

       You don't?

   19. JMJamie Metzl1:01:20

       Well, no, but just because AI, it will be its own form of intelligence, and it may not be... like, frankly, we wouldn't want AIs with these brains like we have that have all these different impulses that are kind of imagining all this, this crazy stuff. We're, we may want them to be more rational than, than we are. So, like, you know, chimpanzees are our close relatives. They don't think just like us. We're not, you know, we're not expecting them to think like... 'cause they're their own thing.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:44

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JMJamie Metzl1:01:44

       And I think AIs will be their own things. Will we be interacting with them? Will we be having sex with them? Yes. But if they are, they're... it's not gonna be that they're just like us. We're going to, they're going to be these things that live within us, live with us, and together, we're going to evolve.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:01

       Well, they're certainly already better at doing certain things like playing chess.

   23. JMJamie Metzl1:02:05

       Yeah, yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:05

       I mean, it took a long time for an artificial intelligence to be able to compete against a real chess master.

   25. JMJamie Metzl1:02:10

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:10

       But now, they swamp them.

   27. JMJamie Metzl1:02:12

       Yeah. So it's-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

       And they learn quickly.

   29. JMJamie Metzl1:02:13

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:13

       Like in-

Episode duration: 2:29:10