Joe Rogan Experience #1299 - Annie Jacobsen

1. 0:00 – 0:50

   Area 51 myths vs. military reality: secrecy, spy planes, and disinformation

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Now? We're live? Three, two, one. Boom. Hello, Annie.

   2. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:04

      Hello, Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      Very nice to meet you.

   4. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:05

      Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      I'm excited to talk to you. I'm super excited to talk to you about several subjects, but this one, thank you very much for this, uh, first edition copy of your Area 51: An Uncensored History of America's Top Secret Military Base book. (book slams) I'm super excited about this.

   6. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:19

      I heard through the grapevine you were a fan.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      I'm a freak when it comes to this stuff.

   8. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:22

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Do you, what do you think is going on up there?

   10. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:25

       I mean, same thing that's going on all over the place when it comes to military secrets, which is stuff that you want to know about, very few people know about, and every now and then, a journalist gets a hint at it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       Hmm.

   12. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:37

       Right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Yeah. Do you think there's any alien stuff up there?

   14. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:41

       I write in the book all about that.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Yeah?

   16. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:42

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Well, tell me.

   18. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:43

       Last 12 pages. You want me to-

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Want me to go to the last 12 pages? (laughs)

   20. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:47

       You wanna read it? (laughs) Um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       What do you think?

2. 0:50 – 5:04

   Stalin, "War of the Worlds" propaganda, and the Roswell/Area 51 hoax claim

   1. AJAnnie Jacobsen0:50

      So Area 51 was this secret test base where the CIA was running s- uh, spy plane programs, right? So interestingly, my new book is about ground branch, guys on the ground. That's about air branch.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:04

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:05

      What we were doing in the air. And it was this idea that we should spy on the enemy, okay? And, but if you go back in time, why Area 51 really started, you learn that it was a base hidden inside of a base, nuclear weapons, and it was all about beating Stalin at his black propaganda campaign, this I write in the book-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:30

      Hmm.

   5. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:31

      ... to hoax Americans in a War of the Worlds type scenario, whereby little men who looked like aliens would get out of an aircraft and the government would go crazy about it. And then Stalin would say, "Look. We have, not only do we have technology b- better than you, but we have a better propaganda department than you."

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:55

      Really?

   7. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:56

      That... Joe, you gotta read the whole book.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:57

      Oh, okay.

   9. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:57

      I mean, this is like a-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:58

       Okay.

   11. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:58

       This is a tough opening. You got me on the spot.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:00

       It is a tough opener, but it's a good spot.

   13. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:02

       Right? (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:02

       It's a good spot.

   15. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:03

       Right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:04

       So Stalin, d- d- just hired short people?

   17. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:07

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Like, what did he do?

   19. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:08

       All right. I'm gonna make you save that. I'm gonna make you earn that.

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       Save it?

   21. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:11

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       How's that?

   23. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:12

       Wha- I mean, you want me to talk about that right now, right off the bat?

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       Why does that-

   25. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:15

       I'm sweating. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       We're gonna get to-

   27. NANarrator2:17

       (laughs)

   28. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:17

       Uh.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:17

       We're gonna get to surprise, kill, vanish-

   30. AJAnnie Jacobsen2:19

       Uh, yeah.
3. 5:04 – 14:24

   Source credibility under pressure: anonymous engineer, Q-clearance, and skepticism

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:04

      But how reliable is this source? This is a very incendiary idea-

   2. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:10

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:10

      ... to rely upon one individual's-

   4. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:12

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:12

      ... recollection of it.

   6. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:13

      Which is why the book went through the roof in terms of people being upset about it. I mean, I, y-

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:18

      Were they?

   8. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:18

      Y- oh, my God.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:19

      Okay.

   10. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:19

       I interviewed 79 CIA guys, Air Force guys, spy pilots, engineers. I mean, Tr-

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       Who was mad at you?

   12. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:28

       The conspiracy theorists were mad at me-

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:30

       (laughs)

   14. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:30

       ... because they said, "This woman is bananas."

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       (laughs)

   16. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:33

       "They were aliens."

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:34

       Well, even if they weren't aliens, right, there's also, there's accounts that it was some sort of a test vehicle and that there were actually just dummies inside there-

   18. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:44

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:44

       ... crash test dummies that they used. There's been a bunch of different versions of it, but the most compelling version of the Area 51 alien myth, to me, is Bob Lazar.

   20. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:55

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:56

       Did you get into that?

   22. AJAnnie Jacobsen5:57

       Yeah. He plays a huge role in Area 51. I mean-

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:59

       Yeah.

   24. AJAnnie Jacobsen6:00

       ... before Bob Lazar went public, no one even knew about Area 51. People hadn't heard of it.

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:05

       Well, people knew-... people, it was, it was common folklore.

   26. AJAnnie Jacobsen6:09

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:09

       But there was no definitive proof that there was something going on over there other than some weird VHS footage of things flying around in the desert-

   28. AJAnnie Jacobsen6:18

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:18

       ... that seemed to be behaving in a way that m- modern aircrafts are not totally capable of, at least modern piloted aircrafts are not totally capable of.

   30. AJAnnie Jacobsen6:27

       I mean, which brings me to another book I wrote called The Pentagon's Brain, which, you know, sort of off this idea was like, "Wait a minute, what kind of technology is the government capable of?" And-
4. 14:24 – 22:26

   Human experimentation allegations: modified humans and the moral shockwave

   1. AJAnnie Jacobsen14:24

      Well, we met because I was interviewing nuclear weapons engineers who were setting off nuclear bombs in Area 51, mushroom-

   2. JRJoe Rogan14:33

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AJAnnie Jacobsen14:33

      I mean, in the Nevada Test Site, Area 12, Area 23.

   4. JRJoe Rogan14:36

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AJAnnie Jacobsen14:37

      And they all said to me, "You've got to talk to the top engineer of all this weaponry." And they gave me his name, and we talked for days and hours about nuclear weapons, and then in one conversation, he began to cry and told me this story-

   6. JRJoe Rogan14:55

      Whoa.

   7. AJAnnie Jacobsen14:55

      ... that I was like, "What? What?"

   8. JRJoe Rogan14:58

      Why was he crying?

   9. AJAnnie Jacobsen14:59

      He was crying because he participated in our version of the human experiments, because what the Russians do, we do i-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:09

       So w-

   11. AJAnnie Jacobsen15:09

       Look, I've written five books about this.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:10

       We altered people to make them look like aliens?

   13. AJAnnie Jacobsen15:13

       According to him, we had a small program in 1951 where we wanted to see how the Russians did what they did, how they made human beings look like this.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:23

       So what'd they do? Take prisoners or something? Like what ... Uh, who did they alter?

   15. AJAnnie Jacobsen15:27

       He said they were handicapped children.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       Oh, Jesus.

   17. AJAnnie Jacobsen15:31

       And he told me that he participated in this, so again, I mean, unless you have someone that lost their mind at age 90 and was willing to tell their wife of 65 years, "I lost my mind." (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:40

       So he's saying that he participated in something that altered handicapped children ... When you say handicapped-

   19. AJAnnie Jacobsen15:47

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:47

       ... do you mean like Down syndrome or something like that?

   21. AJAnnie Jacobsen15:49

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:50

       And they made them look like aliens and then killed them? Like what did ... Uh, how did they ... What did they-

   23. AJAnnie Jacobsen15:57

       (sighs) .

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       ... do with this?

   25. AJAnnie Jacobsen15:58

       This is where we get into drops of information coming out.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       Mm-hmm.

   27. AJAnnie Jacobsen16:01

       But what I can say is he had a grandchild that was born that way, and th- and the grandchild did not live long. The grandchild died, and it made him feel so guilty about what he had done-

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       Mm.

   29. AJAnnie Jacobsen16:13

       ... that he felt compelled to con- to confess, if you will.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Mm-hmm.
5. 22:26 – 29:57

   Why secrecy persists: Area 51 classification, redactions, and political fear

   1. AJAnnie Jacobsen22:26

      ... the source gave me these little bits of information, which I felt, I felt was important to include because it speaks to the big issue. Why is Area 51 classified? I mean, now it's not. President Obama was the first president to actually say Area 51 publicly. Some people say because of my book. Right? Meaning it was out, the secret was out. But before-

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:49

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AJAnnie Jacobsen22:49

      ... that, I went through 10,000 pages of documents from the National Archives, and every place you see, the word Area 51 was actually redacted. Right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan23:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AJAnnie Jacobsen23:00

      Why would you keep that so secret? I mean, all the guys that I was interviewing say they could call it, you know, Groom Lake. They could call it the Test Facility. They could call it Paradise Ranch, but they couldn't say Area 51. Why? And the source said, "Well, because we did this horrible program out there and the government doesn't want anyone to know about that ever." I mean, there's stories of, like, somebody asking Bill Clinton, you know, about Area 51, him going white. I mean, human experiments? Who wants to be part of that? That's horrible.

   6. JRJoe Rogan23:31

      But the human experiments were, were they limited to this mimicry of the Russian experiments where they were trying to get people to look like aliens, or was there something else going on?

   7. AJAnnie Jacobsen23:40

      Well, my goodness, I mean, you read ... Now, the declassified documents tell us how many different human experiments were going on around nuclear weapons. Okay? Horrible experiments where they were subjecting people to radiation because they wanted to know. They felt, well, it's more important to know what happens to people than to not know. And so they would take groups of people that, say, had cancer or something and test them. So there's no doubt that the government has experimented on humans.

   8. JRJoe Rogan24:09

      Hmm.

   9. AJAnnie Jacobsen24:10

      It's just, is that something that is wise to make public? And, you know, there's two sides of the coin on that. I mean, e- you, you ... When you reveal these kind of things, when you write about them, I mean, people get really upset and, you know, vilify the government.... partially with good reason, and partially it's like bad for national security. So I think that's the justification on the part of the De- fense Department to keep things secret.

   10. JRJoe Rogan24:34

       That makes sense. Wow. That's, uh, that an interesting take that I never thought of before. But if I was Stalin and I was trying to, air quotes, "fuck with the Americans-"

   11. AJAnnie Jacobsen24:44

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:44

       ... that's maybe a way I would do it. "Hey man, you got a problem? There's aliens, they're coming." And there was, if people... It's hard for people that live in 2019, especially if you're young, to really imagine a world not only without the internet, but with two television channels-

   13. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:01

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan25:01

       ... right? And radio-

   15. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:03

       Yes. Yes.

   16. JRJoe Rogan25:03

       ... which is where people got all their information from. I mean, was there two channels? How many channels were there in 1947? Joe? Maybe three? Maybe.

   17. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:11

       Maybe.

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:11

       Maybe three. Yeah.

   19. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:12

       I mean it was radio in World War II.

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:13

       Maybe. Yeah.

   21. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:13

       Right? Most people had radio.

   22. JRJoe Rogan25:15

       Radio mostly. Yeah. Mostly radio and newspapers, and that's where people were getting their information.

   23. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:19

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan25:19

       And there was a mass hysteria where people were absolutely terrified that we were gonna be invaded, which is why when Orson Welles' War of Worlds, which when they released it, when they did it on the air, they were very clear that this is going to be a reading of Orson Welles' War of Worlds book. Or that, uh, H.G. Wells, excuse me. War of Wor- right? It was H.G. Wells' book-

   25. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:44

       Yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan25:44

       ... and Orson Welles read it.

   27. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:46

       Yes.

   28. JRJoe Rogan25:47

       And when they were talking about this on the radio, a lot of people missed that part.

   29. AJAnnie Jacobsen25:52

       Yes.

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:52

       Right? And so as-
6. 29:57 – 33:57

   From Area 51 to 'Surprise, Kill, Vanish': the knife that reframed covert war

   1. AJAnnie Jacobsen29:57

      Should we know about that? The way the story started for me, I'm at my house in 2009. A source is, you know, calls me up. He says, "I'm on my way back from the Middle East. Gonna pop by the house and say hi." Um, he brings me a challenge coin that says Kabul, Afghanistan State Department. And I'm thinking, "Okay, he is not a diplomat." I mean he's weapons trained. Um, at the time, my boys were young. There were lots of GI Joes in the garden, and they had little weapons, right? And the source is showing them about the weapons and they're like so into it 'cause they know he's military trained. And then he says, "If it's okay with your mom and dad, I'll show you some weapons." The boys are like, "Please." So he sets up this sniper rifle in the living room and I live up in the hills and you can...... look across the canyon through this scope he set up, and I can see the veins on a leaf across the canyon. And I thought, "Okay, so now I know what he was doing in Kabul, Afghanistan. He's taking out Al-Qaeda with this."

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:56

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AJAnnie Jacobsen30:57

      There's another case on the ground that he never opens, and when the boys go off, I say to him, "What's in that?" And he said... He opens it up, and inside there's a knife, and it's serrated. And I said, "What's that for?" Immediately realizing, you know, my naivete. And he says to me, "Sometimes a job requires quiet." So why that became interesting to me was because of my own thoughts and perceptions about what he had told me. In other words, I could, I could deal with him with a sniper rifle. I could be like, "Okay, that's what he does." But the knife gave me pause. I was like, "Is he slitting someone's throat? Is it in the ribs?" And I thought, "Why is it that I am willing to accept sort of the clinical nature of a, uh, uh, of a sniper rifle, but I can't... I'm uncomfortable with that closeup hand-to-hand killing?"

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:52

      Mm.

   5. AJAnnie Jacobsen31:52

      And that led me to Surprise, Kill, Vanish because that was the motto of the precursor agency of the CIA. It was called the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services. Their motto was Surprise, Kill, Vanish because they would jump out of aircraft, land, work with their French partners, and kill Nazis-

   6. JRJoe Rogan32:13

      Mm.

   7. AJAnnie Jacobsen32:14

      ... with a, you know, a knife to the throat. And I thought, "Okay, that's considered okay because they were Nazis, right?" But we can't, we're not supposed to do that anymore in this world we live in. Why? And I spent the whole, this whole book researching and reporting is about that sort of conundrum, if you will.

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:34

      Mm.

   9. AJAnnie Jacobsen32:34

      That moral puzzle, you know? Why do we, why do we differentiate?

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:41

       Yeah, and who are they willing to do that to? Where do they-

   11. AJAnnie Jacobsen32:44

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:44

       ... draw that line? Like I'm sure you're aware of the story of Jamal Khashoggi-

   13. AJAnnie Jacobsen32:50

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:50

       ... the, uh, journalist who was assassinated by someone.

   15. AJAnnie Jacobsen32:55

       Yes.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:55

       Some group of people and that they, he entered into the Turkish Embassy, and, um, they, they whacked him and chopped him up.

   17. AJAnnie Jacobsen33:02

       Yes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:02

       And carried him out in boxes, and it's a, an international... Uh, well, it's a huge incident, right?

   19. AJAnnie Jacobsen33:11

       Yes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:11

       This supposedly was ordered by... Who was it supposedly ordered by? The head of Saudi Arabia

   21. JVJamie Vernon33:18

       Yeah, MBS.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:19

       Yeah.

   23. AJAnnie Jacobsen33:19

       Mohammed bin Salman.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       Yeah.

   25. AJAnnie Jacobsen33:20

       I mean-

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       Yeah.

   27. AJAnnie Jacobsen33:20

       ... that's the idea is that their head of state wanted him killed because he was a threat, because he was a reporter, because he was writing-

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       Because he was saying some things.

   29. AJAnnie Jacobsen33:28

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:28

       Yeah, and that they... this is how they did it.
7. 33:57 – 38:21

   Kill lists and legal frameworks: Title 50, presidential findings, and plausible deniability

   1. AJAnnie Jacobsen33:57

      And who decides who's a threat? I mean, a lot of this book is about who's on the kill list-

   2. JRJoe Rogan34:01

      Right.

   3. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:01

      ... and why. I mean, there is an actual kill list. There always has been.

   4. JRJoe Rogan34:03

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:04

      And the euphemisms involved, I mean, I write history, as I said. So Eisenhower called his assassination program health alteration. I mean, literally in the declassified documents, you see that.

   6. JRJoe Rogan34:16

      That's hilarious.

   7. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:17

      Okay.

   8. JRJoe Rogan34:17

      Health alteration.

   9. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:18

      He had a health alteration committee.

   10. JRJoe Rogan34:20

       Whoa.

   11. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:21

       Kennedy had an executive action committee, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan34:25

       Hmm, that sounds cleaner.

   13. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:26

       Right? Guess what Reagan's was called?

   14. JRJoe Rogan34:28

       Uh, Super Wonder Boy Power-Up...

   15. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:31

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan34:32

       I don't know. What?

   17. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:32

       Close. Preemptive neutralization.

   18. JRJoe Rogan34:36

       Preemptive neutralization?

   19. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:38

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan34:38

       Wow. Why do they keep switching the names for it?

   21. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:40

       They're burying the information.

   22. JRJoe Rogan34:43

       Oh, the data. Right, right, right.

   23. AJAnnie Jacobsen34:44

       Right? And they keep switching around the... They switch around who has authority to, you know, say, "Yes, let's go ahead and put this guy on the kill list." I mean, that was fascinating. I mean, I interviewed a guy named John Rizzo, who's a decades-long CIA attorney. I was stunned that he was willing to talk to me, um, and he explained to me how a presidential finding, also called a memorandum of notification, works that gives the president the authority to put an individual on the kill list. That job is then given to the CIA's paramilitary army, an operator or their assassins because the CIA works under a code called Title 50 of... So it makes it legal, whereas the Defense Department works under what's called Title 10. So, in other words, and they can't... Their rules of engagement are totally different. So the misnomer-

   24. JRJoe Rogan35:41

       Hmm.

   25. AJAnnie Jacobsen35:41

       ... is like, "Oh, the SEALs killed bin Laden." Well, they were SEALs trained, but that was a CIA mission.

   26. JRJoe Rogan35:49

       Hmm.

   27. AJAnnie Jacobsen35:50

       Because Pakistan is a sovereign nation, and the military can't kill people in countries we're not at war with. So those guys all became essentially CIA operators for the night.

   28. JRJoe Rogan36:06

       Whoa.

   29. AJAnnie Jacobsen36:07

       Right? And if you look at photographs, as I have seen, you'll notice that they have no markings on their outfits so that if the job went south, they'd be like, "I don't know who these guys are."

   30. JRJoe Rogan36:20

       Hmm.
8. 38:21 – 50:46

   Operators’ world: HALO/HAHO infiltration and the culture of elite paramilitary teams

   1. AJAnnie Jacobsen38:21

      And you as a competitor would be fascinated by the kind of training they do and what they do. I mean, so many of these infiltration techniques are mind-boggling, you know?

   2. JRJoe Rogan38:28

      Mm.

   3. AJAnnie Jacobsen38:29

      They've got HALO jumping, which you know about, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan38:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AJAnnie Jacobsen38:31

      Where they g- ... High altitude, low opening, so they jump out. They, you know, free fall down, terminal velocity, pull the rip cord really low so they're not detected by radar, and then they meet up with a team on the ground and go do what they do.

   6. JRJoe Rogan38:45

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AJAnnie Jacobsen38:45

      And they also have HAHO, which is high altitude, high opening, and that way you can fly over airspace where we're allowed and float into, let's say, a country like Iran and land, gather your team, and do what you have to do.

   8. JRJoe Rogan39:03

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AJAnnie Jacobsen39:04

      But like so much of what I report, I get information like that, and then I ask a million questions like you've asking me, and it's like, "Can't talk about that. That's classified."

   10. JRJoe Rogan39:12

       Hmm. You don't ... You're, you're a journalist, so you're trying not to judge.

   11. AJAnnie Jacobsen39:18

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan39:19

       But is it your belief that this is a good thing for America?

   13. AJAnnie Jacobsen39:27

       Meaning h-

   14. JRJoe Rogan39:27

       Meaning having these op-

   15. AJAnnie Jacobsen39:28

       ... the president having-

   16. JRJoe Rogan39:29

       Yes.

   17. AJAnnie Jacobsen39:29

       ... a third option? Well, uh, I mean, I write in the book that that's ... In the prologue after I tell that story about the source with a knife-

   18. JRJoe Rogan39:37

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AJAnnie Jacobsen39:37

       ... I say I wanted to know in that exact question. Like, is this a good thing? And my answer at the end after it's complex, not to be vague, but it is really complex, is also that, well, if you're gonna take that pole position, you must accept rivalry, right?

   20. JRJoe Rogan40:03

       Mm-hmm.

   21. AJAnnie Jacobsen40:04

       And also after talk- ... Do I think it's a good thing? After talking to a lot of 20-year-old soldiers who come back from the war theater missing a limb or with intense PTSD, and who essentially serve as cannon fodder, I would say, my opinion, right, for the Pentagon. That's the second option, war. The 42 guys that I interviewed, you know, they're like, "Send me." They are professional. They are tier-one operators. They're Green Berets, they're SEALs, they're Delta.

   22. JRJoe Rogan40:40

       Mm-hmm.

   23. AJAnnie Jacobsen40:41

       They retire, they join the CIA.

   24. JRJoe Rogan40:44

       Yeah.

   25. AJAnnie Jacobsen40:44

       So they're, like, professionals at what they do, and they're saying, "I want ... Someone has to do this job. We've been doing this since the end of World War II. I wanna do it." So do I think it's better? I mean, I think that that concept speaks to choice, right, because I'm not so sure that the 20-year-olds know what they're in for, and the 40-year-olds know what they're in for and are willing-

   26. JRJoe Rogan41:13

       Hmm.

   27. AJAnnie Jacobsen41:15

       ... to do it.

   28. JRJoe Rogan41:15

       So the d- well, also the difference between a specialized, trained individual with a very specific task versus someone who is sort of following orders and-

   29. AJAnnie Jacobsen41:24

       Oh, absolutely.

   30. JRJoe Rogan41:24

       ... at the front of the line.
9. 50:46 – 1:01:22

   Billy Waugh’s career arc: from Vietnam’s MACV-SOG to hunting bin Laden

   1. AJAnnie Jacobsen50:46

      Or at least my job. So, in other words... Okay, so I go to visit Billy Waugh at his home and I knew... I heard stories about he's this legendary operator, right? And he's also what's called a singleton, so he works alone. And when I was at-

   2. JRJoe Rogan50:58

      That's what they call them, a singleton?

   3. AJAnnie Jacobsen50:59

      A singleton, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan51:00

      Oh.

   5. AJAnnie Jacobsen51:00

      Which is like he's got one guy giving him orders.

   6. JRJoe Rogan51:03

      Whoa.

   7. AJAnnie Jacobsen51:03

      Right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan51:04

      And he's out there lonely?

   9. AJAnnie Jacobsen51:05

      Oh my god. I mean, Billy Waugh is... Right? I mean, back... Can we back up for a second?

   10. JRJoe Rogan51:09

       Yeah.

   11. AJAnnie Jacobsen51:09

       I'm gonna give you the story of him.

   12. JRJoe Rogan51:10

       Please, please.

   13. AJAnnie Jacobsen51:10

       Okay, so he... Here's this guy. He's in, he's in Vietnam. And he's part of what was called MACV-SOG, right? And they're doing cross-border missions into Laos. And it's so dangerous. It's like... It's t- It's a CIA program that... SOG stands for Studies and Observations Group.

   14. JRJoe Rogan51:29

       (laughs)

   15. AJAnnie Jacobsen51:29

       I mean, it's supposed to sound like a bunch of guys in an Ivy League tower with bow ties, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan51:34

       Yeah.

   17. AJAnnie Jacobsen51:34

       But the guys on the ground called it suicide on the ground, that's how dangerous it was.

   18. JRJoe Rogan51:37

       Jesus.

   19. AJAnnie Jacobsen51:38

       100% of the people had casualties, right? Billy Waugh has nine Purple Hearts from the work he did. Nine, okay? I mean, they get shot. They bandage themselves up. They're... You know, they're up in an aircraft because they're limping instead of on the ground, you know, v- viewing th- the missions. Um, the war ends. Everybody's furious with the government, with the military. There's no room for special operators. I mean, everything... It's called the time of troubles by then. Billy Waugh is working in the post office and he gets this knock, you know, and it's like he's back in the CIA now, in 1977.

   20. JRJoe Rogan52:20

       So he was out for a while?

   21. AJAnnie Jacobsen52:21

       He was out. It was over. Vietnam, I mean, he was, he was... You know, it was over. That was it. The-

   22. JRJoe Rogan52:25

       And he was working in the post office?

   23. AJAnnie Jacobsen52:26

       He was working in the post office.

   24. JRJoe Rogan52:27

       It seems like a Stallone movie.

   25. AJAnnie Jacobsen52:28

       It's... He was working in the-

   26. JRJoe Rogan52:29

       We need you.

   27. AJAnnie Jacobsen52:30

       Right?

   28. JRJoe Rogan52:31

       (laughs)

   29. AJAnnie Jacobsen52:31

       I mean, and-

   30. JRJoe Rogan52:31

       The team needs you (groans) .
10. 1:01:22 – 1:19:56

    Psychics, remote viewing, and Ed Mitchell: belief, ridicule, and authority-driven funding

    1. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:01:22

       How about people getting lost?... right? I'll tell you-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

       Lost Housewife.

    3. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:01:24

       Okay. So, the book that I told you I wrote on the psychics.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:01:28

       Phénoménom. One-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

       What do you believe about that?

    7. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:01:31

       Again, I'm neutral, right?

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:33

       I'm not.

    9. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:01:34

       You're not? Tell me.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

        No.

    11. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:01:34

        I wanna hear what you believe.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

        I think there's a lot of people that are full of shit.

    13. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:01:37

        Absolutely. My God.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

        I think it's almost all people that are talking about being psychic are full of shit.

    15. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:01:43

        (sighs) Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:43

        But I do think that there's a strange connection that we have with each other that's intangible, and I think that some people have better connections than others. Just like some people are more intelligent. Like, we were talking before the podcast about Elon Musk, and it's painfully aware when you talk to him what a chimp you are.

    17. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:02:00

        (laughs)

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:01

        Th- th- he's so fucking smart.

    19. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:02:03

        Brain.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:03

        And his brain is... It just, it's built different. Just like some people have defective hearts-

    21. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:02:08

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:08

        ... some people have a heart like Lance Armstrong's. Incredible, huge, with, of, uh, an anomaly. Some people have giant hands. Some-

    23. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:02:15

        He has a big heart, literally?

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:17

        Yes. Yes.

    25. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:02:17

        Oh my God.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:17

        He has literally a, th- and they don't know whether or not that's from training, or steroids-

    27. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:02:22

        (sighs)

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:22

        ... and EPO, and, or whether or not it's something he was born with. They really don't know. But, uh, yeah, he has an unusually sized heart. Unusually large. Um, but what was my point?

    29. AJAnnie Jacobsen1:02:34

        Fate, circumstance, getting lost.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:36

        Oh, psychics.

Episode duration: 2:37:32