Joe Rogan Experience #1300 - Michael Malice

1. 0:02 – 0:57

   Being Labeled a “Nazi”: Snark, Outrage, and Why Talking Matters

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Boom. Here we go.

   2. MMMichael Malice0:03

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      What's up, buddy? How are you?

   4. MMMichael Malice0:04

      I'm-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      Good to see you.

   6. MMMichael Malice0:04

      ... great. Good to be here.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      We were talking before the podcast about, uh, people who get mad when I have you on, like as if you're some sort of a monster, like if you're-

   8. MMMichael Malice0:13

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      ... you're a mean person. Like-

   10. MMMichael Malice0:15

       I'm a mean person.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:15

       ... we were just saying, "You're a New York Jew." You're snarky.

   12. MMMichael Malice0:18

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:18

       You say funny things. But this idea that you're a Nazi or something, like, uh, people have gotten so crazy.

   14. MMMichael Malice0:24

       This... (laughs) I like that this is this icebreaker.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       This is how we get started.

   16. MMMichael Malice0:26

       Hey, welcome to my show. By the way, why do people think you're a Nazi? (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       'Cause someone sent me, I don't read comments on Twitter, but someone sent me something like, uh, "You're having this guy on today." And I'm like, "That is so hilarious." I go, "This guy is, uh, uh, yeah, there's some shit you say I don't agree with."

   18. MMMichael Malice0:40

       Sure.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       You're very reasonable and very intelligent.

   20. MMMichael Malice0:42

       Yeah, the last chapter of the book is me arguing with a Nazi.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Conversation, folks. It's not bad. It's not bad to talk to people.

   22. MMMichael Malice0:50

       I talk, I, I, I th- well, it's, it's kinda for them a religious thing, right?

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       It is a-

   24. MMMichael Malice0:53

       If someone is a sinner, you can't acknowledge them.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       Right.

   26. MMMichael Malice0:55

       They have to be outside of the fort.

2. 0:57 – 3:20

   Deplatforming and the Slippery Slope: How Censorship Backfires Politically

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:57

      That's a good way to look at it. That is what it is. You know, what's interesting, it's I know all, these people don't mean to do this. This is not their plan. But if you wanted to keep Donald Trump (laughs) in office, the wa- the way the people that oppose Donald Trump are behaving is the perfect way to keep him in office.

   2. MMMichael Malice1:15

      If you tell high schoolers, "If you smoke, your parents are gonna get upset and the teachers are gonna get upset," that's the biggest com- c- commercial, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:24

      Yeah. That is... Yeah.

   4. MMMichael Malice1:24

      Right? So, you tell these kids, "Hey, if you go to these websites and read these books, then your parents and the establishment and the teachers are all gonna be afraid of you." Well, sign me up. I mean, it's as simple as that. It's the same exact psychology and they're driving people to the fringe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:41

      Y- They are. And the, the deplatforming thing is, uh, fascinating, because the way this stuff works, folks, is, uh, when people get deplatformed, the first people that'll get deplatformed are people that you agree with getting deplatformed. People like, uh, you know, like a real Nazi, like someone who's, uh, an avowed white supremacy. You're like, "Yeah, deplatform that guy." And then it's a little slippery, 'cause then it's like, "This guy's-"

   6. MMMichael Malice2:05

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:05

      "... a suspected Nazi," or, "This guy is friends with a Nazi," or, "This guy had"-

   8. MMMichael Malice2:09

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:09

      "... a Nazi on his show," or, "This guy had a white supremacist on his show. This guy had a guy who thinks it's okay to be white on his show." And then it gets, it gets more, as it gets more and more progressive, it gets more and more preposterous, but it really is grades. Once you accept one grade, then you drop below and make it a little bit more preposterous, and then that's acceptable, and then a little bit more, and then that becomes acceptable.

   10. MMMichael Malice2:31

       And it's a double standard between people who are orthodox and people who are unorthodox. Barbara Walters sat down with Castro. She sat down with Gaddafi, who's killed, uh, how many people?

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:41

       Yeah.

   12. MMMichael Malice2:41

       That's fine. You could sit down with a murderous dictator if you're Gaddafi. If you sit down with someone on a podcast with someone who has oppo- views, that is somehow different.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       Well, it's a new thing.

   14. MMMichael Malice2:52

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:52

       Thi- this platforming and deplatforming and you put- putting this guy on your platform. Like, all this, this ki- this kinda communication is very new. Uh, it just didn't exist. No one, no one was saying that to Mike Wallace. No one, no one was saying that as you're saying it to Barbara Walters. That was my argument to the Data & S- Data & Society lady. I said-

   16. MMMichael Malice3:08

       Oh, Jesus.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:08

       ... I said, "Barbara Walters interviewed Fidel Castro. Does that make her a communist?" Like-

   18. MMMichael Malice3:12

       Right. And-

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:13

       ... I interviewed Milo. Am I, uh, a gay conservative provocateur now?

   20. MMMichael Malice3:16

       Are you?

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:17

       I don't think so.

   22. MMMichael Malice3:18

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:18

       Need to go to a doctor and check for sure.

3. 3:20 – 6:31

   Orthodox Thought Loses the Microphone Monopoly: Who Sets the Rules?

   1. MMMichael Malice3:20

      Well, uh, I mean, what, what (laughs) what, what they, what they're trying to do is, thanks to social media, they no longer have a monopoly. And I don't mean them, just mean, like, orthodox thought.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:30

      Yeah.

   3. MMMichael Malice3:30

      It doesn't mean left-wing or right-wing. Orthodox thought no longer has a monopoly on the microphone. And that's very dangerous if you want to basically set the boundaries of what acceptable discourse is. Same thing with, uh, forget politics. How about music?

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:42

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MMMichael Malice3:42

      Right? If you wanna say, "These are the ki- you shouldn't have lyrics like this, people shouldn't dance like this, they shouldn't, you know, dress a certain way," this is what they would like. I mean, back in the '90s, you remember, they had the warning labels on CDs and says, "This has explicit lyrics."

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:55

      Yeah.

   7. MMMichael Malice3:56

      And that way, Walmart could with clean hands say, "We're not being involved in politics, we're following their rules." So, that's what this Data & Society lady is trying to do. It's like, okay, I'm giving you, Target, whatever company an excuse, these are the people you don't need to deal with. And then they could say, "Well, it's not up to us. We're looking at this from an external point of view."

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:15

      Well, and also, my perspective on it is that, uh, I mean, uh, there's certain subjects I think that we can all agree we need to cover and we need to deal with in terms of laws and in terms of the way the government is run. But a lot of these disagreements aren't on that. A lot of these disagreements seem to be just on political ideologies and, like, liberal versus conservative ideologies. And people think differently.

   9. MMMichael Malice4:40

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:40

       They have different styles of behavior and thinking. This is why, like, if you had a station that played hip hop and all of a sudden you just got a bunch of Aerosmith songs playing, you'd be like, "What the fuck is this? This is not what I want. Get this off the station."

   11. MMMichael Malice4:53

       Except for Walk This Way.

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       That's good. Well, the one with Run-DMC, right?

   13. MMMichael Malice4:56

       Yeah. (laughs) That's the one exception.

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:57

       That was, that was, that was one exception.

   15. MMMichael Malice4:58

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:58

       But it, that, that's sort of how a lot of people seem to be approaching, uh, con- conservative versus progressive thinking, is it's like once you have this mindset, you don't wanna hear other opinions as if they're gonna influence you or if they, you don't like the way they sound, you don't like what they're doing, and you wanna get them off the channel. And this is what it seems like is happening with social media platforms-

   17. MMMichael Malice5:22

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:22

       ... is that these social media platforms are like, "We're a country station. We don't play heavy metal. Get that shit off our network." Like, "We are a progressive network. We don't play conservative. Get that stuff off."

   19. MMMichael Malice5:35

       Well, if they had said that we're a progressive network-

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:37

       Right.

   21. MMMichael Malice5:37

       ... we play conservative, that would be honest and fair. But they, the claim is, "No, we are banning people who are doing X, Y, and Z."

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:44

       Yeah. And, you know, for people that are like, "Oh my God, they're talking about this again," t- you fuckers, listen, this is really important shit. This is gonna decide how, how we... This is, this didn't exist before, okay? And now it does. Now we have this, uh, unbelievable ability to communicate. And I'm enjoying it right now talking to you, right? We're all enjoying it if you're tweeting about this or writing comments about this. But-... is if this really branches off until one side gets to do it and one side doesn't, we're gonna have a fucking tremendous problem in this country. If you think that this problem that we have right now, when it's, it's just starting to be an issue over the last couple years, if you think that this is what... Uh, th- this could escalate-

   23. MMMichael Malice6:23

       Yes.

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:23

       ... to like a serious conflict, which, I mean, almost like s- it's- it's absolutely reasonable to think that violence could come out of this.

4. 6:31 – 10:03

   Parody Accounts, Sudden Bans, and the Incentive to Self-Censor

   1. MMMichael Malice6:31

      Well, the Trump presidency was the escalation. Before Trump it was, okay, we, we're... Fake news was this left idea that like this, you know, these news sites are putting out lies. You, your, if your point of view is different to mine, it's not just wrong, it's illegitimate.

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:42

      Right.

   3. MMMichael Malice6:43

      And a lot of people went in that voting booth and said, "You want illegitimacy? Okay, I'm voting for Donald Trump for (laughs) President." And now he's in the White House, so for you to say that... For, for people to say that these ideas, you know, are evil and shouldn't be discussed, those are separate concepts.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:56

      Yeah.

   5. MMMichael Malice6:56

      'Cause even if you think they're evil, if from your point of view it's in the White House, are you gonna pretend this isn't the most powerful man in the world? It, it, it's... There's a big contradiction there. But one of the things progressivism offers many people is this idea of truth and certainty, knowing you're one of the good guys, and knowing you're in the majority. And when you find that that is not always true, I think that causes some cognitive stress.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:16

      Yeah. No, I would absolutely agree with that. I just think th- there's a, a real problem that's happening now with, uh, some of the accounts that I'm seeing getting banned-

   7. MMMichael Malice7:25

      Without reason.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:26

      ... without reason for things that are s- like, parody accounts. Like-

   9. MMMichael Malice7:31

      Carpe Donktum. Sorry to interrupt you.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:33

       S- please.

   11. MMMichael Malice7:33

       He's the one who made this great meme during the State of the Union where he'd had President Trump and all the... He s- had footage from the State of the Union of the Democrats looking pissed, and he put it over the song Everybody Hurts, right? This two-minute video. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:44

       (laughs)

   13. MMMichael Malice7:44

       It's f- it's a joke, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:46

       It's funny.

   15. MMMichael Malice7:46

       It w- you could see it on Saturday Night.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:47

       Yeah.

   17. MMMichael Malice7:47

       You don't have to be Republican or Democrat to, uh, to laugh at sourpusses. They got his copyright striked 'cause it's like they're, you don't have the right to use the music. Trump had retweeted it. He put out another one. He just got suspended for a week. He did the, uh, the video from my book. So they don't... Here's the thing. If someone is a name, you can say, "Hey, delete this tweet. It violates our guidelines," right? You give 'em warnings. You could call their manager. They don't do that. You're just vanished overnight.

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:13

       Yeah.

   19. MMMichael Malice8:14

       And there's something very Soviet about this because when they vanish you, your entire archives get vanished too. And it's like, wait a minute, if this person's bad and dangerous, don't you want us to show other people as an example of what to avoid? Like, this will get you banned so you can modify your behavior accordingly. But what they want, apparently, f- what it looks like what they want, is for everyone to be self-censoring-

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:32

       Yes.

   21. MMMichael Malice8:33

       ... and to be afraid. And that way it's like, uh, instead of saying, "We're censorious," it's like, "You made that decision on your own."

   22. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       Well, I know Trump has been talking about this now because it affects so many people that are his supporters.

   23. MMMichael Malice8:44

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan8:44

       You know? And he's, um, been discussing that, the idea that these people need to abide by the First Amendment. And then there's your argument, well either they're a private company, they can put on whatever they want and they can decide whatever they want, or they're protected by the First Amendment.

   25. MMMichael Malice8:59

       Sure.

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:00

       You know, um, I had Tulsi Gabbard on the other day. She was running for president.

   27. MMMichael Malice9:03

       I love her.

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:03

       I love her too. And she's running-

   29. MMMichael Malice9:05

       She won't... I asked her to do my show, she wouldn't reply.

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:07

       Really?
5. 10:03 – 14:21

   Big Problems at Home vs Abroad: Cities, Opportunity, and Moral Tradeoffs

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:03

      ... we're gonna, we're gonna have to work to create more jobs. Like those kinda, that kinda talk is like politician talk. And I go, "Okay, well what would that mean?" And we'll have to figure that out. And I, I think she's sincere. But these answers, you know, don't really exist, like how to fix inner cities, like how to... Like these are the, like some of the, some of the big issues that she discussed. We talked about, um, like horrible neighborhoods that have always been horrible.

   2. MMMichael Malice10:24

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:25

      Like, how is this? Like we're going to fucking Afghanistan trying to fix that?

   4. MMMichael Malice10:28

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:28

      And we're not trying to fix Chicago? The South Side of Chicago? What's happening there?

   6. MMMichael Malice10:32

      And th-

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:32

      Why, why are so many people getting shot?

   8. MMMichael Malice10:33

      I-

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:33

      How come we can't fix that?

   10. MMMichael Malice10:34

       You know what's funny? Back in the day they had something called slum clearance and the idea was if you tear down these old buildings (laughs) and build new buildings, somehow the crime's gonna go away.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:42

       Mm-hmm. Imagine.

   12. MMMichael Malice10:43

       And this was a big movement. (laughs) And it's just like, yeah, it's the building's fault.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:46

       It's the fucking haunted houses people are living in.

   14. MMMichael Malice10:48

       (laughs) Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:49

       They have decades and decades of crack and bullets flying through 'em. That's so crazy.

   16. MMMichael Malice10:53

       No, but she's great because she... My biggest issue is anti-war.

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:58

       Yes.

   18. MMMichael Malice10:58

       And anyone for me whose first priority isn't let's stop killing people-

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:03

       Yes.

   20. MMMichael Malice11:03

       ... that I'm a fan of.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:04

       Yeah, and she's also a veteran.

   22. MMMichael Malice11:06

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:06

       16 years.

   24. MMMichael Malice11:07

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:08

       I'm a big fan. Um, but you know, I think, um, this country needs more. You know, we need, uh, we need real plans. We need like someone... We, we t- the way we engineer software systems, um, you know, search engines, operating systems for cell phones, they should engineer society. I mean, we should really be looking at it in terms of the potential for prosperity, opportunity, all these different things that we don't cover. We just sort of leave so much up to chance 'cause we buy the o- the bullshit that like... I mean, I think we all know at this point that not everyone's on an even playing field. We're just not. But we don't think there's anything-

   26. MMMichael Malice11:47

       Well, I, I don't think a lot of people know that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:49

       S- well, they're fucking crazy.

   28. MMMichael Malice11:51

       And that's the problem.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:52

       Yeah.

   30. MMMichael Malice11:52

       Yes.
6. 14:21 – 16:53

   Bad-Faith Loopholes and the Need for Adversarial Thinking (Trans Sports & Beyond)

   1. MMMichael Malice14:21

      ... you're gonna put forth a law. What are you gonna do about people who are going to look at this law not in good faith? Like there was that guy, what's his name Zoomey, Zooty, who said, "I'm trans." And he just made that video breaking-

   2. JRJoe Rogan14:33

      Oh, Zuby.

   3. MMMichael Malice14:33

      Zuby. Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan14:34

      Yeah.

   5. MMMichael Malice14:34

      He just broke the women's deadlift record.

   6. JRJoe Rogan14:36

      Yeah. He's jacked.

   7. MMMichael Malice14:36

      He's like, "I'm a woman. Here we go." Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan14:38

      By the way they took those, uh, records away from that Australian woman.

   9. MMMichael Malice14:42

      Okay.

   10. JRJoe Rogan14:42

       That used to be a guy. That was Australia, right? Wasn't it the world, the power lifting women's world record?

   11. MMMichael Malice14:48

       S-

   12. JRJoe Rogan14:48

       She broke like three of them. (laughs)

   13. MMMichael Malice14:49

       So not even about trans stuff. It's like what do you do with any law when someone is going to act in bad faith?

   14. JRJoe Rogan14:54

       Yeah.

   15. MMMichael Malice14:55

       And if you can't account for that, you're not being, uh, uh, responsible with your proposal.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:00

       Yeah. This isn't even a law though, what we're talking about with the trans athletes. It's just, it's loopholes. Just some weird d- ... People don't want to be seen as transphobic in today's climate, so they're allowing preposterous things.

   17. MMMichael Malice15:14

       What was that like for you when you were talking ... I remember when you were talking to Adam on this show. That got pretty heated.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       Oh yeah, Adam Ruins Everything?

   19. MMMichael Malice15:19

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:20

       Yeah. Um, it didn't get heated. We just, I mean I never got upset. Uh, we, we f- absolutely disagreed. But he had some crazy notions about competition that didn't make any sense either.

   21. MMMichael Malice15:32

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:32

       Like that somehow or another the sports are designed to favor men.

   23. MMMichael Malice15:38

       What?

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:38

       Yeah, it didn't make any sense. It was a lot of it was progressive rehashing.

   25. MMMichael Malice15:42

       Okay.

   26. JRJoe Rogan15:42

       In my opinion.

   27. MMMichael Malice15:43

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan15:43

       I mean, I think it sounded good to him, but I don't know how much actual thought is put into it. What's actually interesting is like in his show he's well researched and no one's opposing these, this data that he's putting out. So he gets to say these things. It's one of the problems with like writing a blog or making a video about something, where no one goes, "Actually that's not really true. This is why that's not true. Let me explain. And this is why you're wrong. And now I'll continue." See when you can just go on these long-

   29. MMMichael Malice16:13

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       ... unchecked rants, that's where you get like flat earth believers. That's what that shit's from-
7. 16:53 – 20:13

   Anti-Vax Censorship, Autism Fears, and the Weird Edge Cases of Identity

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:53

      Yeah. I think I see what you're saying, and I think what they think is you have to silence these bad voices, like the anti-vax movement. That's a big one, right?

   2. MMMichael Malice17:02

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:02

      Now people are saying you got to silence anti- so they're taking anti-vax videos down. They're taking anti-vax pages down. You know, I don't know how much they actually know about the science. You know, I don't ... I mean vaccines are incredible for health in terms of what they've done to protect us from diseases. They've stopped smallpox. They've stopped polio. And when you see these outbreaks of measles, that is a direct result-

   4. MMMichael Malice17:29

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:30

      ... of people not getting vaccinated. You know, does that mean that no one's ever been hurt by vaccines? No. No, it doesn't man. There's a vaccine court. People have been injured. People have died. That's a fact. But that's I think just a part of medical procedures in human beings. I mean a lot of kids die every year from circumcision.

   6. MMMichael Malice17:48

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:48

      They get infections. They lose their penises. You know I mean? Yeah. It's like very common, like way more common in terms of like the numbers per year than you would ever want to hear.

   8. MMMichael Malice17:57

      Oh God. Okay.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:59

      Yeah. People die from things. They get infections. People get, have allergic reactions to certain chemicals.

   10. MMMichael Malice18:05

       But then the problem is-

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:06

       It's awful.

   12. MMMichael Malice18:06

       ... now those vaxxers can say we're being covered up.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       Yeah this-

   14. MMMichael Malice18:09

       And that now they're honest. It's the truth.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:10

       It is the truth.

   16. MMMichael Malice18:11

       They are being covered up.

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:11

       They are being covered up. Yeah.

   18. MMMichael Malice18:13

       So it's very ... It's v- I would think it-

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:14

       But the problem is who's right and who's wrong? Like if, if you're a person and you, you have a child and you're terrified, can you go to these websites and like, "Oh my God, um, I don't want my kid to get autism. Like, but they're saying that vaccines cause autism. I'm not vaccinating my kid. I'm not gonna take the chance." And that's where a lot of it comes in.

   20. MMMichael Malice18:32

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:32

       If you watch those videos and you watch a video that's not done by a scientist, that's not up-to-date on what we know about what causes ... Like I had Peter Hotez on who's, um-... very knowledgeable about vaccines and very knowledgeable about diseases in general. And he was describing w- the, the, what they think the causes of autism are, that, how it takes place in the womb and how what's most likely happening is, is just expressing itself at the same time that the kid's getting vaccinated. And you're correlating the two things together. (book slams shut)

   22. MMMichael Malice19:04

       Well, there's also the movement of not regarding autism as a problem or-

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:07

       Yeah.

   24. MMMichael Malice19:07

       ... or, or CODA, you know, children of deaf adults. You know, you have-

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:10

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MMMichael Malice19:10

       ... these parents whose kids are deaf and they refuse to get them cochlear implants to give them the ability to hear 'cause they think that's losing deaf culture. Now, t- to me-

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:19

       What?

   28. MMMichael Malice19:20

       You never heard this?

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:20

       No.

   30. MMMichael Malice19:21

       This is a thing. Yeah, yeah. For me-
8. 20:13 – 32:02

   Body Modification, Infomercial Legends, and the Rabbit Hole into Synthetic Drugs

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:13

      Dude, I was w- I was... There was an old, uh, website that I was going to, um... What was that body modification extreme?

   2. MMMichael Malice20:20

      Oh, God. Extreme?

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:20

      Do you remember that guy? BME? He died.

   4. MMMichael Malice20:23

      What, the, oh, the lizard guy?

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:24

      No, no, no.

   6. MMMichael Malice20:25

      Or the cat guy?

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:25

      Well, his name was Shano- Sha- I think Shannon Laureate is how you say his name. But BME Ex- Body Modification Extreme was the website. And he and I became like, uh, uh, p- pen pals going back... Like, he, he sent me some stuff on... I w- I wrote something once about body modification, like what kind of weird shit people do. And he's like, "Hey, man, if you ever have any questions, feel free to ask me. This is my website." He sent me a password to his we- 'cause it was like one of those things you had to pay for a membership. And I was like, "Holy shit." (laughs) You go to this website and it's just... It was just... This was in the '90s, okay? And i- the, the most freakish, weirdest fucking body modifications. And there's a whole culture behind it. People putting horns on their heads and doing weird shit to their skin, making them bulge out-

   8. MMMichael Malice21:09

      That's just k-

   9. JRJoe Rogan21:09

      ... and tattooing their whole face.

   10. MMMichael Malice21:10

       My friend Melissa, she had magnets implanted on her fingers. I don't know why.

   11. JRJoe Rogan21:14

       Yeah. Well, you never know.

   12. MMMichael Malice21:15

       For, for what? What do they think the magnets are for?

   13. JRJoe Rogan21:17

       Well, you have to pick things up, but you don't want to close your hand.

   14. MMMichael Malice21:19

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan21:19

       What the fuck is wrong with people?

   16. MMMichael Malice21:21

       Tree frogs. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan21:22

       Magnets. Well, people think that magnet, like you wear magnets as a wristband, it's supposed to be good for you.

   18. MMMichael Malice21:26

       (laughs) Cures autism.

   19. JRJoe Rogan21:28

       But, but it sounds stupid-

   20. MMMichael Malice21:28

       You get the vaccine, then you get the magnet.

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:30

       You know, it sounds stupid, but they use magnetic therapy for veterans that have PTSD and CTE, um, because, um, there's areas of the brain they can actually stimulate with these very powerful magnets. Uh, Cat Zingano, UFC, um, fighter. She went down there when she was having, uh, some serious, uh, uh, repercussions from her fight with Amanda Nunes. She got really battered badly in the first round. And her hormones were out of whack for like-

   22. MMMichael Malice21:56

       Geez.

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:56

       ... months afterwards. She was all fucked up. Her cortisol levels were all fucked up. And finally, she went and got some... Like, her sparring was off, her timing was off. She was like, "I just have to rush people. I didn't have any sense of timing."

   24. MMMichael Malice22:06

       Oh.

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:06

       Yeah, she was having real problems with her brain. And, uh, they fixed it. They fixed it with magnets. These, these electromagnetic pulse... I'm, I'm just saying words that I don't understand. So if you're a scientist, you're like-

   26. MMMichael Malice22:16

       I'm sure there's a-

   27. JRJoe Rogan22:17

       ... "What the fuck are you saying?"

   28. MMMichael Malice22:18

       ... there's a scientist tweeting at you feverishly right now.

   29. JRJoe Rogan22:20

       And they're like, "Oh."

   30. MMMichael Malice22:20

       "You're spreading lies."
9. 32:02 – 37:27

   Huawei Cut Off: China’s State-Industry Model, Social Credit, and Platform Power

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:02

      But, um, essentially, uh, Google has pulled the plug on Huawei today, meaning they're no longer, uh, allowing Android updates on Huawei phones and they're not allowing the Google app to work on, on Huawei phones, or excuse me, the Gmail app to work on Huawei phones. If you had an old Huawei phone with the Gmail app, you're fine. But going forward, no Huawei phones will be allowed to have, uh, Gmail anymore.

   2. MMMichael Malice32:29

      Well, uh, why... What's their reasoning?

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:30

      It's a very good question. Uh, Marques Brownlee, who's, uh, Marques has been in, on the show before and he's probably one of my favorite, if not my favorite, um, tech reviewer on YouTube. He, uh, had a point about it. He, you know, he put it up on his, uh, Twitter and then I followed the feed. He's like, "This is very important." And I followed the feed and there's tech people that are saying there is no reason for this. There's no evidence. There's... They're not pointing to anything. But then when I talk to people that are experts in foreign policy and they explain the way China works and China's relationship between the government and industry, how they're inextricably connected and the-

   4. MMMichael Malice33:06

      Oh, yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan33:06

      ... every business works for the government-

   6. MMMichael Malice33:08

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan33:08

      ... they were saying, "Well, no, there's a reason why they're doing this." Like, there's a re- these, these guys are playing this real long game and to aid them in any way is, is extraordinarily bad for our country.

   8. MMMichael Malice33:19

      Yeah. I had, uh, Marion Smith from the Museum of Communism on my show and, uh, since my focus is North Korea, I wasn't that much focused on China and he... And we all think in the West that, you know, China's gotten so much better than it was, which is true. But he goes, "It's still really, really, really bad." And one of the big, I think, fair criticisms of the corporate press is how much they're po- focused on Putin and Russia. And it's like, you're calling him a dictator. The shit they're pulling in China is an order of magnitude worse. And something that they're doing now, they stole from North Korea. North Korea has, uh, something called songbun. And everyone-

   9. JRJoe Rogan33:51

      Songbun?

   10. MMMichael Malice33:52

       S-O-N-G-B-U-N, songbun. Everyone in North Korea got interviewed and there were several iterations of this and you got a score based on your family. So if you or family was born in South Korea or a priest or landowner, that's a low score. If you... Your grandfather fought with the great leader Kim Il-sung, that's a high score. It's divided into favored class, wavering and hostile and there's like 51 subcategories. And this determines everything about your life. Where you live, where you go to college. And China's now starting to do this. They're trying to implement a social credit system based on your loyalty to the government, which will allow things like leaving the country and all sorts of other opportunities and that's scary, scary stuff and that's what needs to be, I think, covered much more in the West.

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:35

       The problem with that is it becomes like a game and people are gonna want to have a really high score.

   12. MMMichael Malice34:39

       Of course.

   13. JRJoe Rogan34:40

       That's... It'd be... People are so weird when it comes to scores in games. Like, we get so-

   14. MMMichael Malice34:45

       But you have to have a high score or else you're not getting food.

   15. JRJoe Rogan34:48

       That's true too, yeah.

   16. MMMichael Malice34:48

       Or a job.

   17. JRJoe Rogan34:49

       Right, right, right. Yeah. But it's also like people covet it.

   18. MMMichael Malice34:52

       Oh, but they don't tell you your score.

   19. JRJoe Rogan34:53

       Oh, Jesus.

   20. MMMichael Malice34:54

       You have to intimate it. Oh, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan34:55

       Well, that's even scarier then.

   22. MMMichael Malice34:56

       Oh, yeah, yeah. So you got to fly right and just-

   23. JRJoe Rogan34:58

       So you're always nervous.

   24. MMMichael Malice34:59

       You're... That's what they want.

   25. JRJoe Rogan35:00

       Ugh.

   26. MMMichael Malice35:01

       You're always nervous. It's not, uh, uh, uh, transparency.

   27. JRJoe Rogan35:05

       It's self-censoring as well.

   28. MMMichael Malice35:06

       Yes.

   29. JRJoe Rogan35:07

       Right? It, it forces a system of self-censoring, like Twitter.

   30. MMMichael Malice35:11

       Yes.
10. 37:27 – 40:44

    Trump as Clown, Media Tricks, and 2020 Political Characters (Biden, Amash, Rand Paul)

    1. MMMichael Malice37:27

       And I think it's very healthy for us to have less reverence for the president. Because when a president's on a pedestal, he's in a position to send our sons and daughters to die. Whereas if you look at him as a clown, you're gonna be much less, more skeptical of, "Is this man going to war for the right reasons? Is he doing these things for the right reasons?" And I think that's very... And that's what the Founding Fathers wanted too. They didn't want the president to be looked at as a god.

    2. JRJoe Rogan37:50

       Yeah, that's an interesting point. The, uh, I think you're correct, and I think this idea that it's behavior unfitting for a president, that's what we're thinking. That a president is a special person-

    3. MMMichael Malice38:00

       Right.

    4. JRJoe Rogan38:00

       ... in a special job, and they'll act accordingly like a gentleman. And they're human beings. It's a stupid job, it's a ridiculous job for anyone.

    5. MMMichael Malice38:07

       And, and you saw Biden went after Trump and says, "Oh, being presidential is always..." Yeah, by definition he's always being presidential, 'cause he's the fucking president and you're not.

    6. JRJoe Rogan38:15

       (laughs) Well, Biden's a weird guy, man.

    7. MMMichael Malice38:17

       Oh, did you see all those videos of him sniffing all those kids?

    8. JRJoe Rogan38:19

       Ugh. What is that about? I mean, he could just be a sweet old grandpa.

    9. MMMichael Malice38:24

       But it-

    10. JRJoe Rogan38:24

        You know, sw- some sweet old grandpas don't wanna fuck kids, they do do that.

    11. MMMichael Malice38:27

        I, the thing is, it would, in a, in a sense be, make more sense to people if he was just like handsy, right? It's like, okay, you're an old pervert.

    12. JRJoe Rogan38:35

        Right, right, right.

    13. MMMichael Malice38:36

        This is like, I don't even know where to put this.

    14. JRJoe Rogan38:37

        Right, where do you put sniffing?

    15. MMMichael Malice38:39

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan38:39

        (laughs) It's a fucking weird thing. He's just a weird guy.

    17. MMMichael Malice38:44

        I-

    18. JRJoe Rogan38:44

        Did, did you know about, um, the, the plagiarism from back when he was-

    19. MMMichael Malice38:48

        Oh, yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan38:48

        ... uh, running for president?

    21. MMMichael Malice38:49

        So, he ran three times.

    22. JRJoe Rogan38:50

        Yeah.

    23. MMMichael Malice38:50

        He, I think he's fucked in the primary because his track record is pathetic. So, the first time he ran was in '88 cycle, right? He announces in July, he has to fold by September 'cause of this plagiarism scandal, right? He runs again in '08, comes in like, what, sixth in Iowa? Has to pull. So, he, uh, in terms of his history of running for presidency, it's been very, very poor.

    24. JRJoe Rogan39:10

        He's a good backup man.

    25. MMMichael Malice39:12

        He's a, right, right. He's-

    26. JRJoe Rogan39:13

        Bec- because-

    27. MMMichael Malice39:13

        ... a steady r- reliable result, yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan39:14

        He should stay the fuck out. Just look, it's-

    29. MMMichael Malice39:17

        They're gonna eat him alive.

    30. JRJoe Rogan39:17

        ... uh, it's ugly. It's gonna be ugly. You're gonna hate it, bro, and you're not gonna win.
11. 40:44 – 44:35

    Kim Kardashian’s Prison Reform, Social-Media Mob Justice, and the Justine Sacco Lesson

    1. JRJoe Rogan40:44

       So if there is some sort of a, if he's a reasonable person and he really works well with others and doesn't abuse that power... One thing he has done, though, is the, what, I mean, I'm, it's gonna sound ridiculous, but h- when he has Kim Kardashian bring in cases of people that were unjustly prosecuted or unjustly-

    2. MMMichael Malice41:03

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan41:03

       ... imprisoned and he releases them, I got, I like that.

    4. MMMichael Malice41:06

       I-

    5. JRJoe Rogan41:06

       I like that she does it and I like that he does it.

    6. MMMichael Malice41:08

       It takes a lot for me to get angry, but when people were clowning them, and I'm like, Kim Kardashian, you can say a lot of shit about her, she saved people's lives. I- i-

    7. JRJoe Rogan41:18

       She's helping people in a tremendous way.

    8. MMMichael Malice41:19

       ... You're gonna tell those families-

    9. JRJoe Rogan41:21

       You know-

    10. MMMichael Malice41:21

        ... that, uh, t- that's Kim Kardashian? Fuck you.

    11. JRJoe Rogan41:23

        Look at this. She's helped 17 people be released from prison in the last three months.

    12. MMMichael Malice41:27

        And I think it's also very disturbing how glib a lot of people are about prison.

    13. JRJoe Rogan41:32

        Yeah.

    14. MMMichael Malice41:32

        And it's a really, uh, I don't know what it's like and I don't wanna know what it's like.

    15. JRJoe Rogan41:36

        You don't wanna know what it's like.

    16. MMMichael Malice41:36

        It's no joke.

    17. JRJoe Rogan41:37

        Yeah.

    18. MMMichael Malice41:38

        Uh, so, but it is a punchline. And it's like, you're laughing about people being traumatized for life and possibly having no possibility of returning to society. It, it, this is-

    19. JRJoe Rogan41:47

        Well, those, the, people used to be able to laugh about stuff like that 'cause it would be like laughing at it at work. You know, like, you go to work and you're like, "Hey, OJ's in the can and he's gonna take it in the can." (laughs) You would go to work and you'd say something stupid like that and it wouldn't go anywhere. But when you say something like that on Twitter or Facebook, like, ooh, boy. Remember, um, I mean, people find out when you say the inappropriate thing. You remember that one, Justine Sacco? She, she tweets-

    20. MMMichael Malice42:13

        Oh, of course. Had, some-

    21. JRJoe Rogan42:13

        Yeah.

    22. MMMichael Malice42:13

        ... I was flying here for this show and someone tweeted me #hasmalice landed yet, 'cause that was the hashtag for her.

    23. JRJoe Rogan42:21

        Oh, yeah.

    24. MMMichael Malice42:21

        'Cause she tweeted out a joke-

    25. JRJoe Rogan42:22

        (laughs)

    26. MMMichael Malice42:22

        ... she gets on a flight-

    27. JRJoe Rogan42:24

        Yeah.

    28. MMMichael Malice42:24

        ... and it blew up while she was over- f- on the flight.

    29. JRJoe Rogan42:26

        Right, and when she lands, her life is-

    30. MMMichael Malice42:28

        Ruined.
12. 44:35 – 1:00:01

    Inside ‘The New Right’: Fringe Factions, Dog Whistles, and the Rabbit Hole Effect

    1. JRJoe Rogan44:35

       What is, uh, The New Right? This is the, the title of your book.

    2. MMMichael Malice44:38

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan44:38

       A Journey to the Fringe of American Politics.

    4. MMMichael Malice44:41

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan44:41

       What, what inspired you to do this?

    6. MMMichael Malice44:43

       Uh, so, the, the circles I was swimming in started going into developing to the scene as it was happening that culminated in, like, the Trump presidency and Charlottesville. So I was there as this was happening. And-

    7. JRJoe Rogan44:54

       What circles are we discussing here?

    8. MMMichael Malice44:56

       This kind of the anarchist circles, the, the, uh, what they call, um, race realism, the racists, you know.

    9. JRJoe Rogan45:02

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MMMichael Malice45:02

        Uh, the alt-right. And seeing a lot of it happening just being discussed in the press and people not knowing what they're talking about, I'm like, "All right. Someone's gotta write this book who's been there and understands it." And it might as well be-

    11. JRJoe Rogan45:13

        How do you understand it? Like what, what a- p- what about it do you under- like, the race realists and-

    12. MMMichael Malice45:17

        Because I under- ... The, one of the points I make is, this is not one scene where everyone's in agreement. These people often completely hate each other and disagree. The only thing that unites them is their opposition to progressivism.

    13. JRJoe Rogan45:29

        And this is you looking at this as a journalist when you're saying-

    14. MMMichael Malice45:32

        Sure, yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan45:33

        But you ... But the way you're saying it is like you're a part of these groups.

    16. MMMichael Malice45:35

        Well, I was the ... I, I, I, I'm like, "All right." I went to all the meetings. You know, I go to Charlottesville.

    17. JRJoe Rogan45:40

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MMMichael Malice45:40

        I interviewed all the types. I had ... I, uh ... You know. And it's what their points of view are, and if you're gonna engage with this kind of thinking, which is somewhat prevalent on the fringes, you have to at least understand where, where they're coming from. And being dismissive-

    19. JRJoe Rogan45:54

        I understand that, but-

    20. MMMichael Malice45:55

        ... gives the power.

    21. JRJoe Rogan45:55

        For sure. But what I wanna say is, 'cause I don't want people to misconstrue you. So someone could listen to this and inadvertently misconstr- or, uh, purposely misconstrue and think that you're a part of these groups.

    22. MMMichael Malice46:07

        Oh, no, no. So y- i- it's very clear in this book who I agree with and who I don't.

    23. JRJoe Rogan46:10

        Yes. But no, in your, in the book.

    24. MMMichael Malice46:11

        Oh, absolutely.

    25. JRJoe Rogan46:12

        Yeah, in the book. But, uh, th- the way we're d- discussing it in this conversation, you're saying the circles that you run in.

    26. MMMichael Malice46:17

        Yeah, 'cause a lot of the people who I was friends with fell down this rabbit hole.

    27. JRJoe Rogan46:20

        They fell down the rabbit hole-

    28. MMMichael Malice46:22

        Right.

    29. JRJoe Rogan46:22

        ... of, of racism?

    30. MMMichael Malice46:23

        Nazism, racism.
13. 1:00:01 – 1:15:01

    Memes as Warfare: Ben Garrison, Pepe, “OK” Panic, and Weaponized Mislabeling

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:01

       Why are you, why are you breaking, um, these, these buildings? Is that you?

    2. MMMichael Malice1:00:05

       So that's a dog whistle.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

       That's a dog whistle?

    4. MMMichael Malice1:00:07

       The cover. So there's a guy named Ben Garrison, and he was a regular conservative artist, right? And he would have drawings about, like, Ben Bernanke or Hillary or whatever.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MMMichael Malice1:00:17

       The Nazis took his art, replaced all of his drawings with Jews. So instead of the great wizard of debt being the Fed, it was a Jewish caricature. And they did it perfectly. And they also invented this whole backstory about him, that he was this closet Nazi. And this poor guy in Montana, if you Google him, it's like, "Nazi," and he's like, "Why is this happening to me?"

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       Oh, my God.

    8. MMMichael Malice1:00:37

       And the Photoshop work was perfect. So eventually they calmed down and, and, you know, now he's kind of like a regular cartoonist and the story got out, but that's his artwork. So the people, this poor guy who was... Talk about a victim of Nazis. It's very rare nowadays to have a new victim of Nazis, and he's actually one of them.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:54

       Well, meme culture is very strange.

    10. MMMichael Malice1:00:56

        Right, yes.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

        And, uh, those little humorous images that get chucked around from-

    12. MMMichael Malice1:01:00

        Oh, yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

        ... there's a lot of dirtbags that have really profited off of other people's meme work, too.

    14. MMMichael Malice1:01:05

        Oh, my, like, my friend Don, he's terrible.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

        I don't know who that is.

    16. MMMichael Malice1:01:07

        He works for a, he works for a meme site, yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:09

        Oh, those sites are-

    18. MMMichael Malice1:01:10

        Real dirtbag.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

        Those sites are bad, man. Some of them just flat out steal, and some of them steal and then they'll attribute the meme somewhere.

    20. MMMichael Malice1:01:18

        Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:18

        Like, they'll just say your name, and sometimes they don't even say your name, they say a name of, like, a fake account that doesn't even, ju- they just attribute it to someone. "Oh, we, we thought we got it from that person."

    22. MMMichael Malice1:01:29

        Right.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

        Because they know that it's had 100 different accounts.

    24. MMMichael Malice1:01:31

        Yes.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:32

        But, 'cause a bunch of people have. There's guys like you, you'll find something, you're like, "Oh, this is funny," and you put it up.

    26. MMMichael Malice1:01:37

        Yep.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

        But then there's people that they make these giant sites with all other people's work and they curate them.

    28. MMMichael Malice1:01:42

        Yep.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:42

        And they make millions.

    30. MMMichael Malice1:01:43

        Yep.

Episode duration: 3:01:46