Joe Rogan Experience #1311- David Pakman

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Hello, David. Here we…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Hello, David. Here we go. We're live.

   2. DPDavid Pakman0:03

      We're, uh, we're doing it.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      Yes, we're doing it. What's going on, man?

   4. DPDavid Pakman0:06

      I'm nervous. I'm nervous.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Oh, don't be. Uh, I enjoy your show. I really do.

   6. DPDavid Pakman0:09

      Thank you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      It's a pleasure to watch. Um, you, you're a very smart guy, man. You... And like I said, we were just talking about it, you're very reasonable. In this world, I think there's so much of this, uh, the YouTube political world, the YouTube commentary world, where people are so fucking toxic. You know, there's, there's so much negativity, there's so much what they call dunking on people.

   8. DPDavid Pakman0:30

      Mm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:30

      There's so much dunking. You do a little dunking, but-

   10. DPDavid Pakman0:32

       Some of it's warranted.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       It is warranted, yes.

   12. DPDavid Pakman0:34

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       But I don't know if it's beneficial.

   14. DPDavid Pakman0:37

       Uh, to the, to the people doing the dunking?

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Yes. Or even to the cause. I think it is temporarily... Well, sometimes it's good because it, it, it show-... It mocks people's positions and it makes people realize, "Yeah, that is a ridiculous position." So if you're on the fence or if you're not really quite sure how you feel about things and you see someone get mocked for a ridiculous position that maybe you've even shared for a little bit-

   16. DPDavid Pakman0:58

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       ... maybe, maybe you haven't explored it deeply, and you see someone who has explored it deeply sort of expose all the flaws in this line of thinking, it's good. But my thing... When I'm... I... And I, I interview a lot of people on the right and a lot of people on the left, and I just hate all this conflict that I, I'd say the unnecessary conflict I think is when you, when you watch television today and you see Antifa fighting with, uh, you know, B- Trump supporters and all this, all this weird conflict, I don't, I don't necessarily think that most of it is, is necessary.

   18. DPDavid Pakman1:40

       Necessary? Well, I think the devil's in the details.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       Yeah.

   20. DPDavid Pakman1:43

       So, like, as an example, if you want to bring together, I don't know, people who are on oppor- oppos- opposite sides of the climate debate, for example.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:51

       Good luck.

   22. DPDavid Pakman1:52

       Um, sure. Right. Well, why is... Par- part of that, you could argue, is if one side just does not accept science-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:59

       Right.

   24. DPDavid Pakman1:59

       ... how can you really bring those people together? It doesn't mean you need physical conflict to resolve it. In fact, I completely agree with you, the physical conflict is totally counterproductive. But at a certain point on some issues, I understand why there's, like, an intractability to the debate where it seems completely impossible to move forward because whichever side you're on, I would argue that I'm on the right side of these issues and others would disagree.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:24

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DPDavid Pakman2:24

       When you're far apart in a way that you can't even agree as to, like, what the starting point facts are about the conversation-

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:31

       Right.

   28. DPDavid Pakman2:31

       ... how do you even s-... How do you start? I have some ideas as to how I try to do it, but it's very tough.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:37

       It is very tough. I just don't think dunking on people always, like constantly shitting on people-

   30. DPDavid Pakman2:43

       Mm.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

   2. DPDavid Pakman15:00

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      Like, how did he become... How did he come to prominence?

   4. DPDavid Pakman15:04

      I don't know the sequence, but I think he had a we- an alt-right website that had articles of some kind, and then, um, he... that website became more known and-

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:16

      That fucking term is so talk... The- the... Alt-right, you know, alt-left, the centrist. Like, all these-

   6. DPDavid Pakman15:23

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      ... all these different labels are so-

   8. DPDavid Pakman15:25

      I'd rather talk about issues. I agree with you there.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:26

      Yeah. It's so clunky.

   10. DPDavid Pakman15:28

       But so, you know, first thing was, I did wanna interview him, but if I had felt that I wouldn't be prepared to make it abundantly clear that I don't agree with the guy-

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:36

       Right.

   12. DPDavid Pakman15:36

       ... and I think his ideas are terrible, I wouldn't have done the interview.

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:38

       Right, right, right.

   14. DPDavid Pakman15:38

       So, the problem I had with the critiques from the left of me doing that, some who said, "The last thing we need to be doing is giving this guy a voice," that's often how they say it, or "a platform," my response was, "This guy's getting interviewed in lots of other places that aren't even challenging him."

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       Right.

   16. DPDavid Pakman15:55

       "I'm at least making an attempt here to get something in the record that there are arguments against these ideas, these are bad ideas, and I don't want to be part of the diffusion of just the ideas themselves. I'm gonna be pushing back."

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       I'm gonna have to watch that. I'm gonna have to watch that now. Now, when you did do that, like, what was his response? Was-

   18. DPDavid Pakman16:11

       During the interview?

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:12

       What was his response to your pushback?

   20. DPDavid Pakman16:14

       Uh, I mean, he had answers.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:15

       Yeah.

   22. DPDavid Pakman16:15

       You know, he's- he's- he was well-prepared.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DPDavid Pakman16:17

       I- I don't know if they're- they were unique or new arguments that I was making, um, but there was no argument to be made that I was letting him just parrot white nationalist-

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DPDavid Pakman16:28

       ... talking points unopposed, which I wouldn't- I just wouldn't feel good about that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:30

       Right.

   28. DPDavid Pakman16:31

       It's not how I do interviews.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:32

       Yeah. And then the- the left was upset that you were giving him, air quotes, "a platform."

   30. DPDavid Pakman16:36

       A very small portion of the left.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Oh, I see. Okay.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      engineering.

   2. DPDavid Pakman30:00

      Oh, I see. Okay.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:01

      He, he went to school for audio engineering. By the time he got out, it was all useless.

   4. DPDavid Pakman30:05

      No, but, but that was not a four-year bachelor's program, right?

   5. NANarrator30:08

      It is now.

   6. DPDavid Pakman30:08

      Oh, it is now. Okay.

   7. NANarrator30:09

      Yeah. I, when I went there, it wasn't available for that. But since then, they have made that available and that's also in the time that YouTube has made basically education free for a lot of people.

   8. DPDavid Pakman30:19

      Sure.

   9. NANarrator30:19

      So.

   10. DPDavid Pakman30:20

       I mean, I think with that, the, uh, the issue is, in my mind, um, that when you...... consider the cost relative to the earnings potential. As you pointed out, when you talk about-

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:32

       Yeah.

   12. DPDavid Pakman30:32

       ... $68,000 a year or, you know, I-

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:34

       Whatever it is, yeah.

   14. DPDavid Pakman30:35

       ... I guest taught at Boston College, and I think it was, like, 64,000 all in- something like that. Um, depending on what field you're going into, it's- it's almost impossible to pay that off, ever.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:46

       Yeah.

   16. DPDavid Pakman30:46

       So some- at some point, something needs to change.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:49

       Yeah.

   18. DPDavid Pakman30:49

       And this kind of gets us into the technological automa- uh, automation-

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DPDavid Pakman30:53

       ... and unemployment stuff of what happens as computers and technology start to replace jobs. And that's where I think there's a pretty clear line between a free market capitalist, a social democrat, like myself, and actual socialism, like what should happen with the gains that come from those technological advancements.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:10

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DPDavid Pakman31:11

       But as far as the education piece is concerned, s- s- it- it's completely unsustainable, the way it is now.

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:17

       I knew about you before this happened, but then I really kind of got on board with you when someone was trying to get you fired from-

   24. DPDavid Pakman31:25

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:25

       ... Boston University. And I remember, I-

   26. DPDavid Pakman31:27

       Boston College.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:27

       Boston College, sorry. And I Tweeted it and I was like-

   28. DPDavid Pakman31:29

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:30

       ... like, "What? What is this? This is craziness."

   30. DPDavid Pakman31:32

       Yeah. So it's a woman named Amy Ciskind, who I don't know other than that incident, where-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   ... and just say…

   1. DPDavid Pakman45:00

      say.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      ... and just say that it didn't violate the terms of services.

   3. DPDavid Pakman45:02

      Right. Right.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      And then today, as I got in here, Jamie informed me that they made a decision to demonetize him.

   5. DPDavid Pakman45:06

      That's right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:07

      (laughs)

   7. DPDavid Pakman45:07

      So, in the article where they made the decision not to act, they actually put what YouTube's terms of service are with regard to bullying and harassment. My reading of it, and we could go through them, if we could pull them up, we could go through it line by line if we wanted. My reading was that the, that definitely did break the terms and conditions. That was my view as I looked at what it was that was done by Steven Crowder and what the terms of service are. Just matching it up, not looking at the comments from either person.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:35

      What, what was it specifically?

   9. DPDavid Pakman45:36

      It was, um, specifically targeting an individual on the basis of sexual orientation.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:43

       But he wasn't targeting him on the basis of it. He was mentioning that... with his bad ideas. He was targeting his bad ideas in regards to antifa.

   11. DPDavid Pakman45:51

       A lot of the-

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       That he was dismissing Antifa, but if you look at Crowder's video, and I, I can't believe I spent so much time doing this.

   13. DPDavid Pakman45:57

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:57

       But I spent like a whole hour on this two days ago.

   15. DPDavid Pakman46:00

       Yep.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:00

       Um, he was talking about how Carlos just dismisses Antifa as being not that big a deal, and that there's bias in the media whenever there's anything negative that happens.

   17. DPDavid Pakman46:10

       Sure.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:10

       But if you look at the overall picture, and then Crowder goes on to talk about all the assaults, all the murders, that there were sexual assaults, there was rapes, there was all these things that happened with Antifa. He was talking about all these different people that got maced in the face.

   19. DPDavid Pakman46:23

       Okay.

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:24

       All these people that got hurt. And, and he's highlighting all... Like, this is not something to easily dismiss.

   21. DPDavid Pakman46:30

       Sure.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:30

       And that the FBI had labeled Antifa a terrorist organization.

   23. DPDavid Pakman46:33

       So, so far it's just politics. It's just what does, what does he think, what do I think? So far-

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:37

       It's just that part of it.

   25. DPDavid Pakman46:39

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:39

       And along the way, he's like, "Yeah, but the queer little Latino says this."

   27. DPDavid Pakman46:43

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:43

       And when he does that, that's where it's like, okay, what is he doing? Is he mock... He's kind of mocking him, right? And he's mocking him by saying he's queer, but he says he's queer, or he says he's gay.

   29. DPDavid Pakman46:53

       Yeah, but that's like saying... I mean, listen, just because the N-word is in rap songs doesn't mean that, uh, any, that- that it's defined to go and-

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:00

       Right, but the N-word is not in like, it's not like the LBGTN. You know what I'm saying? It's not like a part of their, their organi- it's-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:12:49

   Yes. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      more regulation, but it's regulation to keep a private company from regulating against free speech. Do you see what I'm saying? It's, it's a sneaky kind of regulation. It's a regulation that's enforcing the First Amendment and the people's ability to freely express themselves. If we're admitting, or if we're agreeing that we are entering into this new world-

   2. DPDavid Pakman1:00:19

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      ... where this i- I, that's my position is that it is a town square, and I, I feel like everybody should be ab- uh, able to communicate. The really unfortunate, unsavory aspect of it is when someone gets harassed, like Carlos Mesa was because of this, where people are sending him all these homophobic tweets and all th- and, I mean, he's getting text messages and all this shit. That's, that's the unsavory and unfortunate aspect of it. How do you-

   4. DPDavid Pakman1:00:44

      I mean, I think it's-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:44

      ... stop that?

   6. DPDavid Pakman1:00:45

      I don't know how you stop it. I don't know exactly how you stop it, but I think it would be useful f- I mean, one thing is, when does a platform get big enough, in your mind, that it would qualify for this, like, town square designation?

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

      Well, for sure YouTube.... let's talk about that one, 'cause that's the one we're on. I mean-

   8. DPDavid Pakman1:01:00

      Okay.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:01:00

      ... fucking goddamn it, it's huge.

   10. DPDavid Pakman1:01:02

       Okay.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:02

       It's gigantic.

   12. DPDavid Pakman1:01:03

       So, are there other types of businesses through which communication happens that you think should be regulated in the same way? I'll... that's not really clear, so I'll give an example.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:13

       Okay.

   14. DPDavid Pakman1:01:14

       If you start regularly sending people via UPS, uh, similar things to some of the content that exists on YouTube, and UPS says, "We're getting reports that you're sending people harassing stuff. We don't want you as a customer anymore."

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:32

       Here's the ques-

   16. DPDavid Pakman1:01:33

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:33

       ... here's a question though. Isn't there a difference between someone sending something to a physical address and someone sending something, s- let's say, to you, when your social media apps are on the third page of your phone, and you have to swipe all the way over to get 'em and open it up and you have to read 'em if you wanna find them?

   18. DPDavid Pakman1:01:47

       Well-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:47

       You don't necessarily have to read them.

   20. DPDavid Pakman1:01:49

       There's a difference in a practical sense, but I guess the question is would we want the government... would you similarly want the government to enforce for telephone companies? If you are harassing, getting harassing texts and you report it and report it-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:02

       Tell... that's a different thing, I think. I think when it's-

   22. DPDavid Pakman1:02:05

       It's, it's different-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:05

       ... coming to your phone and the phone is ringing, I, I think that's a- another step. That's another step towards invasive.

   24. DPDavid Pakman1:02:12

       It's a big gray area.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:13

       Yes, it is.

   26. DPDavid Pakman1:02:14

       Is the phone ringing? Is it a phone call?

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:15

       Right.

   28. DPDavid Pakman1:02:16

       Is it a text? Is it-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:16

       Right.

   30. DPDavid Pakman1:02:16

       ... is it a WhatsApp message?

Episode duration: 2:05:22