Joe Rogan Experience #1325 - Dr. Cornel West

1. 0:04 – 1:42

   Cornel West salutes Rogan’s artistry and Joe’s Richard Pryor origin story

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      Boom, and we're live. How are you, sir?

   2. CWDr. Cornel West0:06

      Oh, brother, I'm so blessed to be here, man. I want to salute you, the work that you do, and the fact that you are one hell of an artist, man. I'm telling you.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Well, thank you very much, coming from-

   4. CWDr. Cornel West0:15

      I saw your stand up comedy night.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      (laughs)

   6. CWDr. Cornel West0:16

      (laughs) Whoo, it's strange times. Whoo-wee, the swing from the political, the personal, from the (laughs) animals onto the, uh, the visionary. It's just a beautiful thing to behold, my brother.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      Thank you. From you, that is an honor. I've been a huge fan of you for a long time.

   8. CWDr. Cornel West0:32

      Well, you're very kind-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:32

      So for you to say that-

   10. CWDr. Cornel West0:34

       ...very kind.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       ...to me means, it means the world.

   12. CWDr. Cornel West0:35

       Oh, it's a deep thing, and I can see your love for Richard Pryor, man. I walk into your space and I'm just transformed by the geist, the spirit, the esprit of this place, man.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Yeah.

   14. CWDr. Cornel West0:45

       Hendricks here, Pryor here. Then when you tell me you worked with the great Richard Pryor.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       I did.

   16. CWDr. Cornel West0:50

       I said, "Oh my God."

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       For five weeks, I followed him-

   18. CWDr. Cornel West0:54

       Wow.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       ...when I was a young comedian at The Comedy Store. I went on right after him every night he performed.

   20. CWDr. Cornel West0:59

       What was that like, though, brother?

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       It was strange just to be in the room with him because, uh, when I was a 14-year-old boy, my parents took me to see him live at the Sunset Strip, and I could not believe-

   22. CWDr. Cornel West1:10

       Wow.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       ...that anybody could be so funny just talking. That was my first experience with stand-up comedy. Other than that-

   24. CWDr. Cornel West1:16

       Wow.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       ...I'd seen, like, I'd seen people perform on The Tonight Show and things along those lines.

   26. CWDr. Cornel West1:20

       With Bob Hope and-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       Yeah.

   28. CWDr. Cornel West1:21

       ...so many others, they highly talented.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       But it's just, it was like, "Ha, ha, ha." It was okay. You know what I mean?

   30. CWDr. Cornel West1:26

       Yeah, ha, ha.
2. 1:42 – 5:37

   Pryor, freedom, and the cost of truth—plus a look at his troubled life

   1. CWDr. Cornel West1:42

      That's, that's, that's something. But you can see the power of art-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:44

      Yeah.

   3. CWDr. Cornel West1:45

      ...and it's connected to freedom 'cause I've always viewed Richard Pryor as the freest man in the 20th century, certainly the freest Black man, along with Muhammad Ali. He's the freest Black man in the 20th century. He is so self-determining. He had the choices that he makes, has to do with w- his own sense of self. He doesn't care what other people think. He doesn't have other k- looking for other people's approval or recognition. He's gonna be who he is, and he pays a major cost for that, of course, I mean-

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:12

      Yeah.

   5. CWDr. Cornel West2:12

      ...anytime you that free in a world of such, uh, uh, such unfreedom, you're gonna pay a major, major cost to be that free.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:19

      Well, he had spectacular honesty, and he took... I, I feel like what happened was Lenny Bruce opened the art form up and then Richard Pryor-

   7. CWDr. Cornel West2:25

      Yes.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      ...took it to a new place. That's-

   9. CWDr. Cornel West2:27

      That's true. That's, that's exactly right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       ...in, when, in terms of the, the origins, the real greats.

   11. CWDr. Cornel West2:31

       That's exact... But then George.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:33

       Oh, yeah.

   13. CWDr. Cornel West2:33

       Oh, George Carlin. Oh...

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       Well, he was the most prolific.

   15. CWDr. Cornel West2:36

       ...Lord, have mercy.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:36

       He did an hour special every year till he died. Every year, he did a new hour.

   17. CWDr. Cornel West2:40

       And they different, each one different and...

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:43

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWDr. Cornel West2:43

       But all three, but I tell, but you are in that tradition. I was saying, man, when, when I saw you doing the, uh, the dogs and the cats-

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:50

       (laughs)

   21. CWDr. Cornel West2:52

       ... (exhales deeply) and getting inside of their souls. I mean, you know-

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:56

       (laughs)

   23. CWDr. Cornel West2:57

       ...how profound that is, though, man, as an artist and as a human being to do that. I said, "Oh my Go..." And it reminded me of Pryor that. And so when I walk in and I see your connection, I said, "I'll be."

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:10

       Mm.

   25. CWDr. Cornel West3:10

       "I'll be." I shouldn't be surprised.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:14

       Well, i- it was, just being in the room with him was strange. I just couldn't believe it was real. You know, I was in my 20s.

   27. CWDr. Cornel West3:19

       Now, you were in your 20s, he was in his...

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:22

       He was at the end, and, uh, like I said, uh, he couldn't walk anymore. They used to have to carry him to the stage. And, uh, but-

   29. CWDr. Cornel West3:29

       He, he performed-

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:30

       Sold out every night.
3. 5:37 – 9:38

   Great female comics, head injuries, and why comedy becomes truth-telling

   1. CWDr. Cornel West5:37

      Who would be the greatest female, uh, comic artist you think?

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:40

      I think Roseanne Barr.

   3. CWDr. Cornel West5:42

      Roseanne?

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:42

      Yeah.

   5. CWDr. Cornel West5:43

      Roseanne is profoundly talented.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:44

      Yeah.

   7. CWDr. Cornel West5:45

      There's no doubt about it.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:46

      She, she doesn't get the credit she deserves 'cause she's legitimately mentally ill, and that's one of the things I had on the podcast to highlight with her.

   9. CWDr. Cornel West5:54

      Legitimately mentally ill?

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       She was hit by a car when she was 15, and she-

   11. CWDr. Cornel West5:57

       I didn't know that.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:57

       ... she spent nine months in a mental hospital.

   13. CWDr. Cornel West6:00

       Really?

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:00

       Yeah. She lost her ability to count. She was very good at mathematics before that, and then after the car accident, the severe head injury-

   15. CWDr. Cornel West6:09

       Oh, my God. Bless her heart.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:09

       ... changed her personality.

   17. CWDr. Cornel West6:10

       Really?

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:11

       Yeah. Same with Keneson. Keneson was hit by a car when he was young as well and changed his personality radically too. Head injuries make people-

   19. CWDr. Cornel West6:19

       Wow.

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:19

       ... very impulsive, very wild and impulsive, and oftentimes-

   21. CWDr. Cornel West6:23

       Wow.

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:23

       ... a slave to their own impulses. And I think, uh-

   23. CWDr. Cornel West6:26

       Exactly.

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:26

       ... Keneson was a big example of that, as was Roseanne.

   25. CWDr. Cornel West6:28

       Oh, no.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:28

       But Roseanne was the first really loud, brash, almost male female comedian who could kill like a man.

   27. CWDr. Cornel West6:36

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:37

       You know? She was fat and proud.

   29. CWDr. Cornel West6:38

       But what about the Joan, Joan Rivers and the, uh, Phyllis Dillers-

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:42

       Oh, yeah. She was great too.
4. 9:38 – 13:21

   Comedy, democracy, and fear of freedom in a corporatized “spectacle” culture

   1. CWDr. Cornel West9:38

      Oh, no, no, 'cause I know you, you a serious, uh, intellectual too. You, you do your homework. But I'm just saying this in terms of just enhancing, you know, all of our lives. I mean, the comic writers, the c- comedians, uh, various sorts, be they on the stage or be they on the page, are, uh, I think the vanguards of the species in a very deep way, you know, because we as a species have to objectify our grief and our pain and our sadness and our sorrow. And it begins with moans and groans, and you transfigure those moans and groans first into song, but song then moves into language. And the language is not rational language of philosophy and dialectic, but it's a language of stories, especially the stories that are self-critical, that we laugh at ourselves, not at others. We laugh with others rather than just at others. So it's not that sudden glory that Hobbes talks about in regard to the comic, where you're looking down and condescending, you see. That's an aristocratic conception of the comic. You laughing at the ordinary people who are so dirty and filthy. It's profoundly anti-democratic, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWDr. Cornel West10:43

      As if, you know, well-to-do folk don't fart-

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:46

      Right.

   5. CWDr. Cornel West10:46

      ... don't essay t- d- don't, don't, don't, don't do number one and number two and fall in and out of love and act a fool and live lives of con- ins- inconsistency, right?

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:54

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWDr. Cornel West10:55

      But back when you get these democratic forms of the comic, (inhales deeply) see, that's you and Pryor and Roseanne and Mo'Nique and George Carlin and all of that. That's free spirit though, brother. In most of our lives, you see, we're dealing with a whole history of a species, of structures of domination, oppression. That's the history of the species for the most part. And there's moments in which there's breakthroughs-

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWDr. Cornel West11:19

      ... in which there's a freedom of spirit, and then you have some institutionalization of that, which is democracy. That's why democracies are so fragile and usually don't last that long, because it cuts so radic- radically against the sense of really wanting to be free. I mean, Dostoevsky's right. Most people really are afraid of freedom.They want to defer to authority, they want to conform. And when they're introduced to freedom and they really catches hold, they say, "Oh my God, it's tremendous cost to be paid, but I like that."

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       (laughs)

   11. CWDr. Cornel West11:51

       "There's something about that." And they th- They can hear it in the music, they can see it in your comic art or priors and others. And it allows these effects and consequences of people's lives to really enrich their lives before they die.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:06

       Why do you think people are afraid of freedom?

   13. CWDr. Cornel West12:08

       Well, uh, it's, it's courage. I mean, c- c- there is no freedom without unbelievable, unprecedented, unstoppable courage. And courage is not widely distributed i- in the species, man. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:20

       (laughs) That's a very charitable way of looking at people.

   15. CWDr. Cornel West12:23

       No, it's true, man.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:24

       But the way you su- (laughs)

   17. CWDr. Cornel West12:25

       Most people would rather conform, they're complacent, they're complicitous-

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:28

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWDr. Cornel West12:28

       ... they're cowardly.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:29

       Yeah.

   21. CWDr. Cornel West12:30

       They well-adjusted to injustice and want to smile and walk around as peacocks, rather than cut against the grain and have to bear witness.

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:37

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   23. CWDr. Cornel West12:37

       And therefore, end up on a cross, or like Socrates, condemned. I mean, most of the great figures that we know-

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:44

       Yeah.

   25. CWDr. Cornel West12:45

       ... end up-

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:45

       Well, it seems there's more consequences for that now than ever.

   27. CWDr. Cornel West12:47

       Oh, oh, yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan12:48

       Cancel culture.

   29. CWDr. Cornel West12:49

       That's exactly right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan12:50

       Yeah.
5. 13:21 – 23:08

   ‘Race Matters’ endures: love as praxis, anti-messianic “victory,” and calling out gangster politics

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:21

      Well, I, I can't recommend your book-

   2. CWDr. Cornel West13:23

      Get to the deep.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:24

      ... Race Matters enough, and one of the reasons is because of your analysis of that. Your, your, your understanding of this, this superficial aspect of the pursuit that so many people are locked into from cradle to the grave. And you just, y- you, you encapsulated that so well. And, and the way you worded it and the way you phrased it, it's, it's so, it resonates so well. And I-

   4. CWDr. Cornel West13:49

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:49

      I, I really admire this lifelong pursuit that you have for not just understanding these things, but explaining them in such a succinct way where it's absorbable. Like, the-

   6. CWDr. Cornel West14:02

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan14:02

      That book, it's, in the 25th anniversary, I wanted to talk to you about it, because th- that's the one I read. And it's so strange when you read something that's so, i- i- i- it's so current, even though it's 25 years old, it rings true. And does that, sometimes, does that feel futile, where you, you, you have the same issues for, that you spoke on 25 years ago and there's very little change in those 25 years?

   8. CWDr. Cornel West14:30

      Hm, no, it's a wonderful, deep question though, man. I appreciate the times that you spent, uh, reading, uh, Race Matters. But no, it's never futile though, man. Uh, it's never futile, because you have a conception of victory that is not messianic or salvific. You're not trying to save people, you're not trying to be a messiah to bring some kind of grand, uh, uh, gospel to people. You're simply trying to touch people's lives. So when you enrich and enable a person's life, the way in which you've talked about that right there, you're already talking about the ways in which you were touched.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:05

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWDr. Cornel West15:07

       That means there was no futility at all.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:09

       Yeah.

   12. CWDr. Cornel West15:09

       You know, there's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:10

       Oh, it's certainly not futility to me, yeah.

   14. CWDr. Cornel West15:11

       There's, there's, it becomes the, it becomes the fecundity of it. And, and so all, all we can do, you know, a- as human beings is to try to inspire one another and encourage one another and enable one another, ennoble one another. And that, in and of itself, is what the great John Coltrane called a force for good. How do I become, based on A Love Supreme, a force for good in a cold and cruel world?

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:40

       Based on Love Supreme.

   16. CWDr. Cornel West15:41

       Absolutely.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:42

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWDr. Cornel West15:43

       Absolutely. And love supreme is not love in the abstract, right? It's a love of beauty in its concrete forms, it's a love of goodness in its concrete forms, it's a love of truth in its concrete forms. Now, I'm a Christian, revolutionary Christian, so I got a love of God mediated through a Palestinian Jew named Jesus, but that's tied to a justice that comes out of prophetic Judaism, right? And we know Judaism, Christianity, Islam, all of these religions for me, uh, uh, have no wholesale monopoly on how we understand the world, because they all emerge at various historical moments. But when it comes to this love that allows us to persist in a world in which cruelty and, and envy, contempt, manipulation, dishonesty, and that's shot through all of us.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWDr. Cornel West16:36

       So we're not finger-pointing and name-calling.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       Right.

   22. CWDr. Cornel West16:39

       Oh, no. You know, I've, uh, I, I've called, uh, brother Donald Trump a gangster over and over again. And I, I, and I say that because there's a gangster inside of me I got to reconquer it every day.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       (laughs)

   24. CWDr. Cornel West16:49

       So I know gangsters when I see him. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       (laughs)

   26. CWDr. Cornel West16:51

       Oh, boy. And gangster is not a subjective expression, it's a objective condition.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWDr. Cornel West16:57

       If you grabbing a woman's parts, that's gangster.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:59

       Yeah.

   30. CWDr. Cornel West16:59

       You stealing somebody's oil in another country, that's gangster.
6. 23:08 – 31:19

   Political simplification, Trump as ‘Peter Pan,’ and America’s democracy/empire contradiction

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:08

      I think one of the beauties of what you're saying here, one of the beautiful things about what you're saying here is the complexity of human beings.

   2. CWDr. Cornel West23:15

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:15

      And when you're dealing with the situation between these girls that call themselves The Squad and Donald Trump, and you deal with these very simplistic things like these chants of, "Send her back," or, "Lock her up," or, "They hate America." Or, you know-

   4. CWDr. Cornel West23:30

      Absolutely.

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:31

      ... this, this is simplifying things, is, is so attractive to some people and so attractive during political discourse, right? During these-

   6. CWDr. Cornel West23:40

      Absolutely.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:40

      ... these times when you're trying to rally up a campaign and get, get, get the audience behind you.

   8. CWDr. Cornel West23:45

      That's right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:45

      This is when these simplistic things resonate.

   10. CWDr. Cornel West23:47

       Definitely.

   11. JRJoe Rogan23:47

       But as a human being, we know that, uh, things like ... I don't, I don't, e- e- y- these ... I don't subscribe to this idea that human beings are good or bad. I think there's-

   12. CWDr. Cornel West23:59

       Can go either way.

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:00

       Yeah. There's ... I'm, I'm sure ... Like, the way Donald Trump loves his family, I'm sure there's love in that guy. I'm sure there is.

   14. CWDr. Cornel West24:07

       I mean, he's, he's had some, you know, relations to his mother and his brothers and sisters that were not ones of sheer manipulation and domination. There's no doubt, as a human being, it's important to keep track of his humanity.... uh, but at the same time, what happens is the dominant patterns of behavior... This is what-

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:25

       Right.

   16. CWDr. Cornel West24:25

       ... worries me about Brother Trump, especially the fact that he's head of the American empire and, and head of the government, you see. That when you have dominant patterns of behavior that are completely u- unaccountable... See, for so long, he's been able to get away with things with no accountability at all.

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:44

       Yes.

   18. CWDr. Cornel West24:44

       That's what makes him a kind of a Peter Pan-like figure. He's pe-

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:49

       Up until he became president, right.

   20. CWDr. Cornel West24:51

       Rich, he's powerful.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:52

       Yeah.

   22. CWDr. Cornel West24:52

       But he hasn't grown up. But even as president, he hasn't grown up. People w- would, had thought that he would grow into the office. No, he just hasn't grown up. You know, he's still Peter Pan, like. You know?

   23. JRJoe Rogan25:01

       But he's u- uniquely tried to manipulate the office position to change to, to be what he is.

   24. CWDr. Cornel West25:05

       That's right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:06

       And I think people love that. There's certain people that that resonates with them. They think that's so attractive. They love it.

   26. CWDr. Cornel West25:13

       Well, they, I think they love it in the-

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:16

       'Cause it's exciting.

   28. CWDr. Cornel West25:17

       ... sense that... I mean, w- the first thing that, you know, Trump was able to do was to expose the pre-packaged commodities that we call politicians.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:28

       Yes.

   30. CWDr. Cornel West25:28

       That he came across as somebody who was just himself.
7. 31:19 – 48:44

   What democratic socialism means: labor history, ethical markets, and the ‘free ride’ myth

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:19

      So do you think that socialism just hasn't been implemented correctly? Is that what you think? Because, like, the, the, the argument has always been show me a socialist economy or socialist government that ever worked.

   2. CWDr. Cornel West31:30

      Right, right, right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:31

      But there's so many people that find the idea of socialism attractive because it, it combines this idea of a community with a nation, and that we're all tied together. And we ha- we obviously have some socialist aspects to our civilization-

   4. CWDr. Cornel West31:46

      Absolutely.

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:46

      ... in terms of, like, utilities and taking care of the roads.

   6. CWDr. Cornel West31:50

      Military. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:50

      The military.

   8. CWDr. Cornel West31:50

      See, we're not gonna, we're not gonna outsource the military.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:52

      Firefighters, police officers.

   10. CWDr. Cornel West31:53

       Firefighters, police.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:54

       Yes.

   12. CWDr. Cornel West31:54

       There has to be some kind of-

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:56

       Right.

   14. CWDr. Cornel West31:56

       ... uh, governmental control. But the, uh, the problem is this, that, uh, if w- we have to view democratic socialism as a moment in the larger movement of democracy. My dear brother Jeff Stout is one of the great, uh, philosophers and, uh, uh, thinkers of democracy, calls them egalitarian freedom traditions.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:20

       Mm.

   16. CWDr. Cornel West32:20

       And that's simply a way of saying that if you look at the world through the lens of the masses of people who are poor and working people, what are the conditions under which they can have security from domination? What are the conditions under which they can have dignity by holding forms of oppression at arm's length, you see? And for me, it's not an -ism. You see?

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:49

       Mm.

   18. CWDr. Cornel West32:49

       If capitalism vis-à-vis feudalism can generate liberties and freedoms, I'm for it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:56

       Mm.

   20. CWDr. Cornel West32:57

       And that's precisely what the middle classes did when they broke from feudalism in Europe, or broke from feudalism in other parts of the world, right? You had to overthrow kings and queens in the name of personal liberties. But those personal liberties were confined too often to white brothers with property.

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:15

       Mm.

   22. CWDr. Cornel West33:16

       And the white brothers with no property, they're either trying to hold onto their whiteness so they become like the white brothers with property, or they made moral choices and said, "I wanna be a person of integrity. I wanna fight with the folk who are being excluded." And this is one of the problems in talking about race and white supremacy in America, because you see, we think too often in monolithic categories. There's never been a white supremacy without fighting against white supremacy, and that includes white brothers and sisters. There's a tradition from Anne Braden, from Myles Horton, you know, of Highlander Center. You've got that wonderful picture of Rosa Parks. She was at Highlander Center four months before she was arrested, before she sat down on a bus in order to stand up for justice, right there at Highlander Center under Myles Horton. Who was Myles Horton? A white brother who brought Black folk and white folk together, went to Union Seminary, trained under Reinhold Niebuhr. He had cousins in the Ku Klux Klan.

   23. JRJoe Rogan34:19

       Wow.

   24. CWDr. Cornel West34:19

       So his Thanksgiving dinners were very complicated.

   25. JRJoe Rogan34:22

       (laughs)

   26. CWDr. Cornel West34:23

       (laughs) But that's true for a whole lot of white brothers and sisters-

   27. JRJoe Rogan34:25

       Yeah. (laughs)

   28. CWDr. Cornel West34:25

       ... who fight against white supremacy.

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:27

       Yeah.

   30. CWDr. Cornel West34:27

       Anne Braden, uh, uh, uh, Rabbi Abraham Joshua, Ahab- ............................ Edward Said. You have a whole tradition of white brothers and sisters who've been fighting against white supremacy. You get it in the music. Bex Beiderbecke, he's sitting at the feet of Louis Armstrong, and he's a great artist. Louis is genius of geniuses, right? And that middle-class brother from Iowa, you ask him about white supremacy, you ask Brubeck about white supremacy, you ask any of the... Pa- Paul Desmet, all of these folk who are connected to traditions in which Black humanity, Brown humanity is seen and affirmed.
8. 48:44 – 57:36

   Military spending, drones, and the moral necessity of public accountability

   1. CWDr. Cornel West48:44

      You see what I mean? So that's the beginning of it. Now, of course, part of the question here is, has to do with, uh, they'll say, "Well, we wasted this money on the poor." You say, "Well, wait a minute."Donald Trump just passed a $750 billion military budget. Democrats voted for it, too. How much waste is in the military? Why is 60 cent of every $1.00 coming out of the federal bullet- budget tied to the military? Why is it no close oversight and accountability of it? How come American people don't know about the four countries that we're bombing or assisting other countries in bombing? And we can go right down, Pakistan, Afghanistan-

   2. JRJoe Rogan49:32

      Yemen.

   3. CWDr. Cornel West49:32

      ... Yemen, absolutely. Mali, Niger, Somalia, uh, um, Iraq. I mean, we can go on and on and on.

   4. JRJoe Rogan49:40

      Right.

   5. CWDr. Cornel West49:41

      How come we don't know about the 4,800 military units, 587 around the world? We got US Special Operations in 128 countries. There's only 197 in the world, right? What about the soldiers who die? Hardly any talk about it. What about the innocent people we kill? Hardly any talk about it. What about the drones that-

   6. JRJoe Rogan50:03

      Mmm.

   7. CWDr. Cornel West50:03

      ... we're still dropping? And not always on military combatants, but innocent people, children.

   8. JRJoe Rogan50:10

      Almost primarily on innocent people.

   9. CWDr. Cornel West50:12

      And it go, sometimes, even disproportionately. Those are precious people, too.

   10. JRJoe Rogan50:17

       Yeah.

   11. CWDr. Cornel West50:18

       And they have the same value as anybody in Ethiopia, America, Chicago, and so forth.

   12. JRJoe Rogan50:23

       Do you feel that drones, drones are particularly insidious because it doesn't even seem like it's really happening because it's a robot doing it?

   13. CWDr. Cornel West50:29

       Exactly. Absolutely.

   14. JRJoe Rogan50:30

       And it's done remotely.

   15. CWDr. Cornel West50:31

       Long distance-

   16. JRJoe Rogan50:32

       Yeah.

   17. CWDr. Cornel West50:32

       ... remotely.

   18. JRJoe Rogan50:33

       You don't see it.

   19. CWDr. Cornel West50:33

       No human sensitivity at all.

   20. JRJoe Rogan50:36

       Yeah. Apparently, the PTSD that's suffered by those re- remote drone operators is pretty profound, too.

   21. CWDr. Cornel West50:41

       You can understand that.

   22. JRJoe Rogan50:42

       Yes. Yeah.

   23. CWDr. Cornel West50:43

       You can deeply under- And yet, no serious public conversation about it in the country.

   24. JRJoe Rogan50:48

       Very little.

   25. CWDr. Cornel West50:48

       I tell you, I was on the plane the other day and, uh, (smacks lips) the pilot says, uh, "I hope you all are able to take a few minutes of your time because we got a family outside waiting for the body of someone just killed in Afghanistan." It was an Italian family in Chicago. One of the saddest things you ever wanna see in your life, man is a family lined up and they bringing the body out. And you say to yourself, "How come there's no public spotlight on that?" And you see, when I was growing up in the '60s, Walter Cronkite and Vietnam, we saw the bodies.

   26. JRJoe Rogan51:26

       Well, during the Bush administration, they made it illegal to take photographs of flag-draped coffins.

   27. CWDr. Cornel West51:32

       That's exactly right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan51:33

       Which is unbelievably insane.

   29. CWDr. Cornel West51:35

       That's exactly right. And continued under Obama and company.

   30. JRJoe Rogan51:39

       Yeah.
9. 57:36 – 1:04:04

   Systemic racism on the ground: Baltimore, denial, and ‘representation’ vs transformation

   1. JRJoe Rogan57:36

      Like, if we have these disenfranchised parts of this country that have been that way forever ... There was a guy that's been on this podcast who was a police officer in Baltimore, his name is Michael Wood. And, uh, he, uh, talked about how when he was a police officer, he recognized the systemic racism and how, how crippling it was. And one of the things that he recognized was, they found a piece of paper that was a blotter report of, uh, all the different various crimes that were committed from the 1970s. It was a, a, a, some year in 1970. It was the exact same crimes in the exact same communities-

   2. CWDr. Cornel West58:08

      Wow.

   3. JRJoe Rogan58:08

      ... that he was dealing with then. And he was-

   4. CWDr. Cornel West58:10

      Generation after generation.

   5. JRJoe Rogan58:11

      ... recognizing the redlining, about the fact that there was areas where Black people were not allowed to buy homes, that they kept them in these communities, the same crimes kept occurring in the same places.

   6. CWDr. Cornel West58:21

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan58:21

      And all they were doing was going in there and arresting people.

   8. CWDr. Cornel West58:23

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan58:23

      And nothing changed and nothing was fixed. And as a police officer, he was realizing and, uh, uh, just becoming a- aware of the fact that this is ... He's a part of the system. He didn't want to be a part of the system anymore, but he was a part of the system that is creating this problem. When you d- ag- address that, though, the people that don't suffer in those communities, that aren't a part of that community, there's a natural inclination to resist.

   10. CWDr. Cornel West58:49

       Oh, that's true. That's true.

   11. JRJoe Rogan58:50

       And it's because they don't want to do anything. They don't, they don't want to think they're responsible, they don't want to think they're a part of it, they don't even want to discuss it.

   12. CWDr. Cornel West58:57

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan58:57

       Even discussing it, you feel resistance.

   14. CWDr. Cornel West59:00

       They want to end the state of denial.

   15. JRJoe Rogan59:02

       Yes.

   16. CWDr. Cornel West59:02

       Trying to avoid and trying to evade. No, it's, that's very, that's very real. That's very real. But you know, it also works, uh, within communities of people of color. And this is, again, why I think we have to resist any monolithic char- or homogeneous characterizations of people, you see? So that anytime you talk about White supremacists, you've got the John Browns. And you know, Mary Ellen Pleasant, who was a, um, a Black woman who was worth $347 million in the 1840s.

   17. JRJoe Rogan59:35

       Whoa.

   18. CWDr. Cornel West59:36

       She's called the Mother of Human Rights in California.

   19. JRJoe Rogan59:38

       What did she do?

   20. CWDr. Cornel West59:39

       She mated a rich White brother and he died on her. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan59:42

       (laughs)

   22. CWDr. Cornel West59:43

       So she ended up with millions of dollars. First thing she did, she gave John Brown a million dollars.

   23. JRJoe Rogan59:49

       Wow.

   24. CWDr. Cornel West59:50

       John Brown had a note-

   25. JRJoe Rogan59:51

       He probably didn't even notice it.

   26. CWDr. Cornel West59:52

       ... from her in his pocket-

   27. JRJoe Rogan59:54

       Wow.

   28. CWDr. Cornel West59:55

       ... when he was at Harpers Ferry. That's how he survived.

   29. JRJoe Rogan59:58

       Wow.

   30. CWDr. Cornel West59:58

       You see? Now, John Brown was killing innocent people, I think that's wrong. I don't believe in innocent people, no matter who they are, no matter what color. But at the same time, John Brown had a love of Black people, much deeper than many Black people have with themselves, 'cause he was willing to die for Black people. But the same is true within, let's say, Black communities, you've got, okay, 1% of the population in America who owns 41% of the wealth, you got three individuals who have wealth equivalent to 160 million fellow citizens. But within the Black community, the top 1% of Black folk have over 70% of the wealth. So that means you got a lot of precious Jamals and Laticias out there, who don't ... Are, who are told to live vicariously through the lives of Black celebrities.
10. 1:04:04 – 1:13:17

    Freedom moments in performance: excellence, sports, Ali/Jack Johnson, and Malcolm X’s sincerity

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:04:04

       You talked about moments of freedom earlier, and I, I recognize that as, like, one of the greatest things that you ever see when someone's on stage-

    2. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:10

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:04:11

       ... and they're killing, there's moments where everyone's together.

    4. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:14

       That's right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:04:14

       They're all together, locked up in the laughter. And they're all together, there, there's a sense-

    6. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:19

       Absolutely.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:04:19

       ... of community that you share with the people that are in the room.

    8. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:22

       Absolutely.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:04:22

       It does bring people together, even if it's for brief moments, for a few seconds, or-

    10. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:26

        Yeah, but you know, moments-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:04:28

        ... as long as it takes.

    12. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:28

        ... moments are not to be trashed.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:31

        No.

    14. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:31

        Life consists of moments.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:33

        Yes.

    16. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:34

        You know what I mean?

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:34

        Yes.

    18. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:35

        Definitely. And, and see, it's, in a democracy, you see, it's those moments that constitute the memory of what could be-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:04:47

        Yeah.

    20. CWDr. Cornel West1:04:47

        ... as opposed to what's in place. You know, the great August Wilson, uh, the great b- playwright, Black playwright, deeply influenced, he said, by the blues, Baraka, and Bearden, Roman Bearden, the great painter, and B- Am- Amiri Baraka, of course, from Newark, like yourself.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:02

        Mm.

    22. CWDr. Cornel West1:05:02

        Just like Sarah Vaughan and Philip Roth, right there from Newark. He used to say that performance authorizes alternative realities for the audience that gets them to unsettle their conventional perceptions of the world.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:05:19

        Whoa.

    24. CWDr. Cornel West1:05:20

        And that's what great artists and great comic... But that's what, that's what you, th- that's what you do in Strange Times though, brother.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:05:26

        (laughs)

    26. CWDr. Cornel West1:05:26

        That, that you bring in the fact that we're living in such a grim moment, and what I'd call, you know, an American empire in decline. And we all need to call for its regeneration, its democratic revitalization and regeneration. But-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:39

        How, how do we do that?

    28. CWDr. Cornel West1:05:40

        Only by example, man, because there's a difference between, uh, what the great Roberto Unger calls, um, biographical time and historical time. All of us are born in circumstances not of our own choosing, we're only here for so long. We all have insecurities, anxieties and fears knowing that our bodies will undergo extinction one day very soon. And therefore, to deal with those insecurities and fears and anxieties, you have to have certain structures of feeling and value that give you some sense of worthwhileness as you move through time, from mother's womb to tomb. Right? And it's only in biographical time, 'cause we only got one life this side of the Jordan, and there's no person who's a messiah. Now they, people will tell you they are, but you say, "Okay, just go with it."

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:06:27

        (laughs)

    30. CWDr. Cornel West1:06:27

        You know, be self-deceived and drink your cognac and keep moving.
11. 1:13:17 – 1:23:59

    Soulful ‘kenosis’: artists who empty themselves—and the standards West demands of performers

    1. CWDr. Cornel West1:13:17

       You see? It is, uh... See, one of the great gifts of, um, (smacks lips) the artist, and, and I, I speak about this especially in the Black tradition, is what we could call soulful kenosis, K-E-N-O-S-I-S. Now, kenosis means self-giving, self-donating, and self-emptying. So if you go to a James Brown concert, that brother goes for four and a half hours, and gives everything, every fiber of his being. And at the end of every concert, what does he say? "I'm an extension of you. You're an extension of me."

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:13:57

       Mm, yeah.

    3. CWDr. Cornel West1:13:57

       "I don't exist without you." Did we fail to play a song that somebody came to hear and their sister hollers out, "You didn't play 'Soulf... Power,' and he say, 'Hit it, Bootsie.'"

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:14:11

       (laughs)

    5. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:11

       I got to play that song 'cause his service, you see?

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:14:15

       Right.

    7. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:15

       Al Green, go to Al Green concert, that brother can't walk-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:14:20

       Hmm.

    9. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:20

       ... after the concert. He's given everything from falsetto to tenor to everything.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:14:26

        Well, ultimately, that's what happened with Prince, right? I mean, Prince had such incredible-

    11. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:29

        Prince gave everything.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:14:29

        ... pain in his hips.

    13. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:30

        With the hip jumping off pianos.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:14:33

        That's-

    15. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:33

        I saw him jump off-

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:14:34

        That's how he got hooked on pain pills.

    17. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:35

        That's exactly right.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:14:36

        And that's what killed him, ultimately.

    19. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:37

        That's exactly... John Coltrane blowing his horn as if his neck is gonna snap every night.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:14:44

        Mm. Yup.

    21. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:44

        And then he gave a concert November 1967, '66, right before he died in July '67. He drops the horn, start beating on his chest, man.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:14:54

        (laughs)

    23. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:54

        Rashid Ali said, "What's happening, Trane?"

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:14:56

        (laughs)

    25. CWDr. Cornel West1:14:57

        He said, "I'm just giving the people all that I can, and the... now them horns getting in the way."

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:15:01

        Wow. Oh, wow.

    27. CWDr. Cornel West1:15:02

        You know what I mean?

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:15:03

        (laughs)

    29. CWDr. Cornel West1:15:03

        But don't you feel that when you walk off the stage, man? When you walk off the stage at strange times, man, you've given everything, all that Joe is at that moment. Now, what is that? You see, that is the example of a love supreme that is there to serve the people. Now, you gonna make a living too. They gonna get paid. You gonna get paid and so forth, but that's not the primary thing.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:15:28

        Hmm.

Episode duration: 1:58:20