Skip to content
The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1325 - Dr. Cornel West

Dr. Cornel West is a philosopher, political activist, social critic, author, and public intellectual. He is Professor of the Practice of Public Philosophy at Harvard University and holds the title of Professor Emeritus at Princeton University. He has also taught at Union Theological Seminary, Yale, Harvard, and the University of Paris.

Joe RoganhostDr. Cornel Westguest
Jul 24, 20191h 58mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 15:00

    Boom, and we're live.…

    1. JR

      Boom, and we're live. How are you, sir?

    2. CW

      Oh, brother, I'm so blessed to be here, man. I want to salute you, the work that you do, and the fact that you are one hell of an artist, man. I'm telling you.

    3. JR

      Well, thank you very much, coming from-

    4. CW

      I saw your stand up comedy night.

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. CW

      (laughs) Whoo, it's strange times. Whoo-wee, the swing from the political, the personal, from the (laughs) animals onto the, uh, the visionary. It's just a beautiful thing to behold, my brother.

    7. JR

      Thank you. From you, that is an honor. I've been a huge fan of you for a long time.

    8. CW

      Well, you're very kind-

    9. JR

      So for you to say that-

    10. CW

      ...very kind.

    11. JR

      ...to me means, it means the world.

    12. CW

      Oh, it's a deep thing, and I can see your love for Richard Pryor, man. I walk into your space and I'm just transformed by the geist, the spirit, the esprit of this place, man.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      Hendricks here, Pryor here. Then when you tell me you worked with the great Richard Pryor.

    15. JR

      I did.

    16. CW

      I said, "Oh my God."

    17. JR

      For five weeks, I followed him-

    18. CW

      Wow.

    19. JR

      ...when I was a young comedian at The Comedy Store. I went on right after him every night he performed.

    20. CW

      What was that like, though, brother?

    21. JR

      It was strange just to be in the room with him because, uh, when I was a 14-year-old boy, my parents took me to see him live at the Sunset Strip, and I could not believe-

    22. CW

      Wow.

    23. JR

      ...that anybody could be so funny just talking. That was my first experience with stand-up comedy. Other than that-

    24. CW

      Wow.

    25. JR

      ...I'd seen, like, I'd seen people perform on The Tonight Show and things along those lines.

    26. CW

      With Bob Hope and-

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. CW

      ...so many others, they highly talented.

    29. JR

      But it's just, it was like, "Ha, ha, ha." It was okay. You know what I mean?

    30. CW

      Yeah, ha, ha.

  2. 15:00 – 30:00

    Mm-hmm. …

    1. CW

      a person's life, the way in which you've talked about that right there, you're already talking about the ways in which you were touched.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      That means there was no futility at all.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      You know, there's-

    6. JR

      Oh, it's certainly not futility to me, yeah.

    7. CW

      There's, there's, it becomes the, it becomes the fecundity of it. And, and so all, all we can do, you know, a- as human beings is to try to inspire one another and encourage one another and enable one another, ennoble one another. And that, in and of itself, is what the great John Coltrane called a force for good. How do I become, based on A Love Supreme, a force for good in a cold and cruel world?

    8. JR

      Based on Love Supreme.

    9. CW

      Absolutely.

    10. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      Absolutely. And love supreme is not love in the abstract, right? It's a love of beauty in its concrete forms, it's a love of goodness in its concrete forms, it's a love of truth in its concrete forms. Now, I'm a Christian, revolutionary Christian, so I got a love of God mediated through a Palestinian Jew named Jesus, but that's tied to a justice that comes out of prophetic Judaism, right? And we know Judaism, Christianity, Islam, all of these religions for me, uh, uh, have no wholesale monopoly on how we understand the world, because they all emerge at various historical moments. But when it comes to this love that allows us to persist in a world in which cruelty and, and envy, contempt, manipulation, dishonesty, and that's shot through all of us.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      So we're not finger-pointing and name-calling.

    14. JR

      Right.

    15. CW

      Oh, no. You know, I've, uh, I, I've called, uh, brother Donald Trump a gangster over and over again. And I, I, and I say that because there's a gangster inside of me I got to reconquer it every day.

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. CW

      So I know gangsters when I see him. (laughs)

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      Oh, boy. And gangster is not a subjective expression, it's a objective condition.

    20. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      If you grabbing a woman's parts, that's gangster.

    22. JR

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      You stealing somebody's oil in another country, that's gangster.

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      You lying, saying these people have said that America is garbage, quit lying. That's gangster. They got a critique of America. You did too in American carnage in your inauguration, you said-

    26. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CW

      Or you're talking about the full sisters in Congress saying, "Well, uh, uh, uh, evil Jews..." No. They hadn't said, "Evil Jews," they said, "Evil doings of Israel." Every nation state-

    28. JR

      Yes.

    29. CW

      ... has done some evil things, right? If there's a Palestinian state, which I hope there is, they're gonna do some evil things.

    30. JR

      Yeah.

  3. 30:00 – 45:00

    Mm-hmm. …

    1. CW

      and then characterize those on the outside who are threatened as impure and then view yourself as those coming to the rescue to preserve the purity, it can be based on race, it can be based on religion, it can be based on politics, preserve that purity. We saw it in the '50s with the hysteria.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      Communists were what? Smith Act, they're deported.... or they're taken to jail. I mean, the first, the first city councilman from Harlem, Benjamin Davis, went to jail because he was a Communist, you see? Because they were the impure.

    4. JR

      Mm.

    5. CW

      You see? Now, communism needs to be radically called into question in terms of its dominating forms, like the Soviet Union and China on the Mao, and so forth and so on. But at the same time, when you look at Karl Marx and his critique of capitalism, he... This is prior to Lenin, prior to Stalin, prior. He says, "Capitalism is tied to this obsession with profit that puts profit before people."

    6. JR

      Mm.

    7. CW

      "And it will generate oligopolies in which there will be grotesque levels of wealth inequality, and the only way that poor and working people will be able to gain access to any resources is through organizing and mobilizing." Now, you can accept that Marxist insight without being a Marxist.

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. CW

      He's just telling the truth.

    10. JR

      So do you think that socialism just hasn't been implemented correctly? Is that what you think? Because, like, the, the, the argument has always been show me a socialist economy or socialist government that ever worked.

    11. CW

      Right, right, right.

    12. JR

      But there's so many people that find the idea of socialism attractive because it, it combines this idea of a community with a nation, and that we're all tied together. And we ha- we obviously have some socialist aspects to our civilization-

    13. CW

      Absolutely.

    14. JR

      ... in terms of, like, utilities and taking care of the roads.

    15. CW

      Military. (laughs)

    16. JR

      The military.

    17. CW

      See, we're not gonna, we're not gonna outsource the military.

    18. JR

      Firefighters, police officers.

    19. CW

      Firefighters, police.

    20. JR

      Yes.

    21. CW

      There has to be some kind of-

    22. JR

      Right.

    23. CW

      ... uh, governmental control. But the, uh, the problem is this, that, uh, if w- we have to view democratic socialism as a moment in the larger movement of democracy. My dear brother Jeff Stout is one of the great, uh, philosophers and, uh, uh, thinkers of democracy, calls them egalitarian freedom traditions.

    24. JR

      Mm.

    25. CW

      And that's simply a way of saying that if you look at the world through the lens of the masses of people who are poor and working people, what are the conditions under which they can have security from domination? What are the conditions under which they can have dignity by holding forms of oppression at arm's length, you see? And for me, it's not an -ism. You see?

    26. JR

      Mm.

    27. CW

      If capitalism vis-à-vis feudalism can generate liberties and freedoms, I'm for it.

    28. JR

      Mm.

    29. CW

      And that's precisely what the middle classes did when they broke from feudalism in Europe, or broke from feudalism in other parts of the world, right? You had to overthrow kings and queens in the name of personal liberties. But those personal liberties were confined too often to white brothers with property.

    30. JR

      Mm.

  4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

    Mm. …

    1. CW

      have? They have the same value, and of course, as a Christian for me, they have exactly the same value, right? So how will they get it? Well, here comes socialist movements that say, first thing they want to do is, "We're against child labor laws." That's, that's the jungle. That's Upton Sinclair.

    2. JR

      Mm.

    3. CW

      He's a socialist, tried to be Governor of California, right? And what were they doing? What were, what, what were these, these capitalists doing? They're hiring these kids at six years old, seven years old. They were dying at 30. There were no laws against child labor. And they're working seven days a week, so the labor movement brought us the weekend. And I'm not talking about the singer from Canada.

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      God bless him (laughs) . I'm talking about the two days we have off, because if we didn't have that from the socialist movement and the labor movement, they'd have been working young kids-

    6. JR

      Mm.

    7. CW

      ... seven days. They did that year after year, decade after decade. That's greed.

    8. JR

      Right. That's, that's-

    9. CW

      That's, that's greed. There's no accountability, you see?

    10. JR

      That's where that whole idea of the let the market decide falls apart.

    11. CW

      Exactly.

    12. JR

      Because the market just wants profit, right?

    13. CW

      Absolutely. And that doesn't mean that markets cannot be used in democratic ways.

    14. JR

      But they need to be ethical.

    15. CW

      But they gotta be ethical, you got to have some accountability-

    16. JR

      Mm.

    17. CW

      ... and regulation. And child labor laws were very important at, uh, uh, breakthroughs at that time, but there are other... You, you had c- You, you need to have laws to make sure the water was clean and the food was regulated and clean and so forth.

    18. JR

      There's a narrative that you get from, uh, uh, poor people often, or people that are lower middle class, that are against the concept of socialism because they equate it with people that want a free ride.

    19. CW

      That's right.

    20. JR

      They, they equate it with people that don't want to work hard.

    21. CW

      That's right.

    22. JR

      And w- how... That, that's a, it's a strange narrative when you consider all the things we talked about already, like the, what we need with the fire department and the police department and all the-

    23. CW

      Absolutely.

    24. JR

      ... different ways that socialism does form... Utilities and all the different ways that socialism does form-

    25. CW

      That's right.

    26. JR

      ... uh, uh, a part of our cu- our culture and our community. Why do you think that that is this narrative, and how d- how does that narrative get reshaped? Because that narrative of that the only reason why people want socialism is because they want a free ride.

    27. CW

      Right, right. Ooh, that's a wonderful question. Well, the one is that, um, you have to... First, we have to listen very closely to our right-wing brothers and sisters, and conservatives and middlers, because oftentimes, I mean, they're human beings like anybody else, and they've had their own arguments. I don't think they have strong ones, but they have their own arguments.

    28. JR

      Mm.

    29. CW

      So the first thing you'd say about that is, "What makes you think that the well-to-do don't have free rides?" What is inheriting wealth all about? What-

    30. JR

      Oh, inheriting wealth is free ride.

  5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

    Mm-hmm. …

    1. CW

      innocent people, I think that's wrong. I don't believe in innocent people, no matter who they are, no matter what color. But at the same time, John Brown had a love of Black people, much deeper than many Black people have with themselves, 'cause he was willing to die for Black people. But the same is true within, let's say, Black communities, you've got, okay, 1% of the population in America who owns 41% of the wealth, you got three individuals who have wealth equivalent to 160 million fellow citizens. But within the Black community, the top 1% of Black folk have over 70% of the wealth. So that means you got a lot of precious Jamals and Laticias out there, who don't ... Are, who are told to live vicariously through the lives of Black celebrities.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      So it's all about representation, rather than substantive transformation. You get that in politicians, you know, "You got a Black president, all of y'all must be free. Isn't that a beautiful thing? Live through him."

    4. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      "Live through the family. Beautiful achievement. Magnificent achievement."But it's not about symbolic representation only, this is about fundamental transformation. So it's a challenge. Mary Ellen Pleasant and others, and Martin King and others, are challengers for those of us who do have some resources, to still raise our voices. Because you can be Black and highly well adjusted to injustice; economically, in terms of race, and so forth, you see? And the same is true, you can be brown, you can be ra- So it's not just a matter of looking for that one individual who represents, it's a matter of connecting that representation to fundamental transformation. If there's no fundamental transformation, you end up with a whole generation of peacocks.

    6. JR

      Mm.

    7. CW

      Look at me, look at me, look at me. All about foliage. And what does that do? That falls directly into the culture of superficial spectacle.

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      Last thing we need is just spectacle with no substance in that way.

    10. JR

      Mm.

    11. CW

      And this is a battle within, uh, within the communities of peoples of color, because it's not, it's not gonna be a matter of just pointing out White supremacy. Of course White supremacy is a f- fundamental foundation and part of the country. It's not the only foundation, 'cause you got resistance to White supremacy. Y- you got Lydia Maria Child, she wrote a book in 1834 called An Appeal For That Class of Americans Called Africans. It was deeply influenced by one of the greatest works ever written at that time by David Walker, Appeal to Colored Citizens of the World. She's a White sister, she is as vanilla as Doris Day in the 1830s, a fundamental part of the Black Freedom movement. Right?

    12. JR

      Mm.

    13. CW

      Well you see, those folk need to be lifted up, because what does that do? That exposes our humanity in terms of the choices we make, not just the skin color we have. And I would say the same thing in terms of gender. The brothers who are fundamentally concerned about breaking the back of patriarchy, when we know patriarchy is shot through us 'cause we grew up in the (laughs) 1950s and '60s. No man escapes it. But you try to reconquer it all. And the same is true with our precious gays and lesbians and trans folk, you see? T- t- to be decent human beings who make moral choices. See, I believe in the primacy of the moral and the spiritual, the centrality of the artistic, especially the musical and especially the comics, as the vanguards who represent a freedom and a courage and a vision to connect us as human beings. 'Cause you can't really be a comic with a wholesale Nazi ideology.

    14. JR

      (laughs)

    15. CW

      Now you can be a Nazi genius like Martin Heidegger, who was a great philosopher and a genius and a thug when it come to pol- when it comes to politics, you see? But a comic has got to be able to be open enough to deal with the incongruity and inconsistency and the sheer absurdity of it all.

    16. JR

      You talked about moments of freedom earlier, and I, I recognize that as, like, one of the greatest things that you ever see when someone's on stage-

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      ... and they're killing, there's moments where everyone's together.

    19. CW

      That's right.

    20. JR

      They're all together, locked up in the laughter. And they're all together, there, there's a sense-

    21. CW

      Absolutely.

    22. JR

      ... of community that you share with the people that are in the room.

    23. CW

      Absolutely.

    24. JR

      It does bring people together, even if it's for brief moments, for a few seconds, or-

    25. CW

      Yeah, but you know, moments-

    26. JR

      ... as long as it takes.

    27. CW

      ... moments are not to be trashed.

    28. JR

      No.

    29. CW

      Life consists of moments.

    30. JR

      Yes.

  6. 1:15:00 – 1:23:12

    Wow. Oh, wow. …

    1. CW

      horns getting in the way."

    2. JR

      Wow. Oh, wow.

    3. CW

      You know what I mean?

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      But don't you feel that when you walk off the stage, man? When you walk off the stage at strange times, man, you've given everything, all that Joe is at that moment. Now, what is that? You see, that is the example of a love supreme that is there to serve the people. Now, you gonna make a living too. They gonna get paid. You gonna get paid and so forth, but that's not the primary thing.

    6. JR

      Hmm.

    7. CW

      That's not it.

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. CW

      See, Curtis Mayfield sings the, sings his songs that the radio won't play. When he's told not to go to the rallies and he shows up with his guitar anyway and plays We Are Winner-

    10. JR

      Hmm.

    11. CW

      ... that's self-giving, self-emptying. And I tell that to the young musicians these days, 'cause a lot of... You know, in, in the culture of spectacle, nowadays, shit, you get these performers, they just show up and think they ought to get a standing ovation for 10 minutes. Say, "No, negro-"

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      "... sing a song first, man. Shit."

    14. JR

      Well, peacocking-

    15. CW

      No, this ain't no spectacle and peacock. We want... You sang something that's gonna stir our souls the way Sam Cooke and Johnny Taylor-

    16. JR

      Right.

    17. CW

      ... and Lou Rawls when the soul stirs, did.

    18. JR

      It's the work.

    19. CW

      Now, we, we, we respect that genius and so forth. See, Beyoncé is fascinating in this regard because she's a genius. There's no doubt about it. She's, I think she's the greatest entertainer of our day. I've been very critical of her because there's a sense in which she's still tied to the cultural superficial spectacle-

    20. JR

      Hmm.

    21. CW

      ... in terms of the way she looks and girls in formation and so forth.

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      But at the same time, she's also grounded in the tradition. And there's a new mo- movie that she made. You see that?

    24. JR

      No.

    25. CW

      Homecoming?

    26. JR

      No, I haven't seen it.

    27. CW

      Oh, man. Oh, man, you gotta see it. That's one of the greatest performative films ever made, man.

    28. JR

      Really?

    29. CW

      When she goes to co- she goes to Coachella, and she shows up Coachella with all of the bands of Black colleges, and performs all of her songs with all of them moving 150, 200 of 'em.

    30. JR

      Wow.

Episode duration: 1:58:20

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode ViWvAnvT17c

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome