Joe Rogan Experience #1344 - Joseph LeDoux

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Here we go. Joe,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Here we go. Joe, thank you. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it, man.

   2. JLJoseph LeDoux0:06

      Oh, it's a pleasure to be here.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      This is a fascinating subject. I've been really looking forward to talking to you 'cause, uh, the conscious mind and how we, how we evolved our conscious mind, how we have our conscious mind. I mean, that is, uh, one of the more unique things about being a person.

   4. JLJoseph LeDoux0:21

      It is.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      How did it happen?

   6. JLJoseph LeDoux0:23

      Oh. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      (laughs)

   8. JLJoseph LeDoux0:25

      Well, it's only a four-billion-year story, as the subtitle-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      Oh, we have some time. (laughs)

   10. JLJoseph LeDoux0:28

       ... of the book says. (laughs) Good. (laughs) So, shall I tell you how I got-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Sure.

   12. JLJoseph LeDoux0:33

       ... into it and, uh, where, where, how I ended up thinking about that problem? So I'd been working on how the brain detects and responds to danger for most of my scientific career. Uh, a little bit before that, I'd actually studied consciousness in these people who have their brains split apart to control epilepsy, called split-brain patients. So I got interested in consciousness and also in how behaviors that might be produced non-consciously, uh, affect what we know about ourselves. So, uh, we see ourselves doing something, and then we kind of consciously build that into our narrative of what we are. But a lot of what we do, we do non-consciously. And when we interpret it, that kind of, uh, solidifies the fact that you have a non-conscious system that's controlling your behavior, when in fact you, you didn't do it, but that system did, so you gotta make sense of it and generate an explanation, a narrative. So that, uh, that was where I got started, and I tried to figure out, well, what would be some ki- kinds of non-conscious systems and said, "Well, maybe emotion systems are producing behaviors that we don't fully understand." And I started studying that and ended up, uh, figuring out how this part of the brain called the amygdala receives information about the environment and then controls, orchestrates all the responses, fight-flight kinds of responses to help you protect yourself. And the, um, you know, s- after many years of doing that, I started asking, "Well, how far back does this ability to detect and respond to danger go?" We know that bugs and flies can do that, and research had been done showing that, uh, bugs and flies have certain molecules in their brain that are important in these kinds of protective defensive behaviors and including the ability to learn about them and store those as memories. So it's easier to work on those little tiny, um, uh, invertebrates than it is to do studies in a complex brain, even like a rat brain, which is pretty complex. Um, so given that what these people had discovered about invertebrates, I and others who were studying, uh, mammals decided to see if the same molecules might be involved in mammalian learning, and in fact it was. So now that raises the question, you've got the same molecules doing the same thing, the same molecules, the same genes doing the same thing in ancient invertebrates and in, uh, and animals like us. So you ask, where back in time is the ancestor that made that possible? You know, if we've got the same genes, either it kinda happened spontaneously separately or there's a common ancestor. And indeed there's a common ancestor, and that goes back to the first organism, first animal that had a bilateral body, which means it had a left, right, front, and a back, uh, and a top and a bottom. So it has kind of three-dimensional sides. Before that, there were animals like jellyfish that were radial, they had, but no front and back. They just have a, a top and a bottom. And before that, there's sponges, which have no front, back, top, bottom. They're just kind of randomly organized. So that's kind of the, that's the story of animals, sponges to jellyfish to these bilateral animals. So the ancestor, uh, the, the, the bilateral animal that we're talking about gave rise to those two lines, one that became all these invertebrates like flies and bugs and snails and octopus and all those things, and another to animals like us, vertebrates, all the, um, fish, reptiles, mammals, birds, and so forth. So those are two separate lines that inherited these genes that make the memory and defensive behavior possible. So you say, "Well, how far back then it, does it stop there?" And no, it doesn't because you can find those genes on through jellyfish and then keep going into single-cell organisms. Now, these are like protozoa, uh, things that give you intestinal, um, their, uh, intestinal parasites so they can, you know, give you upset stomach. And, um, things like amoeba, paramecia that you might have heard of in, you know, biology class in high school or something. Um, these have no nervous system, and yet they detect and respond to danger, they learn about their environment, they do all these sorts of things. And where did they come from? Well, if you go all the way back to where they came from, uh, even simpler kind of organism, s- still single-cell, of course, like bacterial cells. Now these guys go back to the beginning of life. The first cell that ever lived some 3.7 billion years ago that gave rise to the entire history of life was a bacterial-like cell that started dividing. Now what's interesting, that cell that started dividing is the mother of every bacterial cell that ever lived. So that cell is, uh, it's, it's more like its rep- you know, that cell is still alive because it's, they reproduce by cell division. So that stell- cell just keeps reproducing, and part of that first cell ever is still with us today in all the bacterial cells that are, that are around. Uh, it's kind of a mind-blowing thing, isn't it? (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:52

       It's incredibly mind-blowing. (laughs) Do we have any idea why the first cell decided to divide?

   14. JLJoseph LeDoux5:57

       Well, (clears throat) i- it, this, I shouldn't say it's the first cell that decided to divide. This, it's the first cell-

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:02

       Bacterial cell?

   16. JLJoseph LeDoux6:03

       It's the first cell that-... was able to, to sustain life long enough to give off offspring that could s- sustain and sustain and sustain.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:12

       Uh-huh.

   18. JLJoseph LeDoux6:13

       So there were probably lots of experiments before a kind of cell or kind of group of cells had the right stuff to be able to do that. So they ... those others never made it because they didn't have quite enough of what it took to be a cell that could do that. (smacks lips) So the first cell, I mean, it's kind of a hypothetical cell. It's called LUCA, the last universal common ancestor of life.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:36

       Whoa.

   20. JLJoseph LeDoux6:36

       Yeah. (laughs) And that ... so that's about 3.7, 3.8 billion years ago. Um, but it could have been a bunch of cells, you know, a collection of cells, cell types, uh, that, that ... one of which then, you know, populated all of life.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:52

       The weird thing about life is not just that it's different and it varies so much, but that it's e- it's ever-increasing in its complexity.

   22. JLJoseph LeDoux7:03

       Well-

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:03

       If you go back to the single cell and then you come all the way-

   24. JLJoseph LeDoux7:07

       (clears throat)

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:07

       ... to today, to a person-

   26. JLJoseph LeDoux7:08

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:08

       ... like what a weird-

   28. JLJoseph LeDoux7:10

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan7:10

       ... sort of transformation it is.

   30. JLJoseph LeDoux7:11

       Well, uh, you know, it's dangerous to talk about as if we're moving towards some kind of goal, you know, like-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JLJoseph LeDoux15:00

      is, say, a person with social anxiety might find it easier to go to the party, they're less timid, but still anxious while they're there. And the reason is, that we now know, is that damage to the amygdala in a person doesn't necessarily also eliminate the feeling of fear. It gets rid of the, the body responses, but not the feeling.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JLJoseph LeDoux15:18

      So it was a misunderstanding of what behavior can tell us. We treat behavior as if it's an ambassador of the mind, but behavior is really a tool of survival that goes back to those first cells that ever lived who had to defend against danger. Bacterial cells move in the... in the water and then they come across, like, you know, a, a gradient of some chemical that's a toxin. As soon as they detect that, they bounce away and go in a different direction. If they are go-... if they find a gradient of something that is a nutrient, they keep going and, and absorb it. So they have the ability to detect what's useful and harmful in their lives. These are not... these are not there for psychology, they're simply there to keep the organism alive. And many of the behaviors that persist throughout the whole history of life are like that. They're there because each of the cell and... cells in the body has to, you know, do all these things to stay alive, and so the organism as a whole has to do it as well. Defend against danger, incorporate nutrients, balance fluids, thermoregulate, reproduce. So these are survival tools, not mind tools. Now, we can use our mind in conjunction with these things, uh, and because we can, we conflate every time we're freezing in the front of a snake to the fact that the fear is what's causing it. But the fear is a separate process. It's the awareness that that stuff is happening to you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:46

      The awareness that that stuff is happening to you. So-

   5. JLJoseph LeDoux16:48

      So, so no self, no fear.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:50

      Oh.

   7. JLJoseph LeDoux16:51

      That's my T-shirt there. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:52

      Whoa. That's deep.

   9. JLJoseph LeDoux16:53

      That's my merch on the, the book. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       (laughs) Now, how do things like Xanax work? What, what's the mechanical process?

   11. JLJoseph LeDoux17:03

       Okay. So the, um... that's a part of the class of drugs called benzodiazepine, and they, um, will... they bind to receptors in the brain. The brain has receptors for all kinds of, uh, uh, chemicals, and many of these things are things that exist in nature, and what... that they want... that they bind to is a receptor called the GABA receptor, which is the major inhibitory transmitter in the brain. So when you have a benzodiazepine binding to a GABA receptor, what it's gonna do is increase inhibition. So the... you know, the kind of simple reason why those things can help is they kind of inhibit, so they tone down the brain a bit, and so things that would normally trigger a response no longer trigger it. So it's like increasing the threshold for something to bother you in a sense.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:59

       And a lot of people enjoy that with alcohol. They're not supposed to?

   13. JLJoseph LeDoux18:03

       Well, uh, alcohol also attacks those receptors-

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:06

       Yes. Yeah.

   15. JLJoseph LeDoux18:06

       ... so it's like, uh... you get double the, the effect.

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       Right. Is that why they tell people, "Don't have Xanax with alcohol"?

   17. JLJoseph LeDoux18:10

       Uh, yeah, 'cause you can... you know, if you... if you take a lot of Xanax and drink a lot of booze, you can OD.

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:16

       Or you could just say crazy things-

   19. JLJoseph LeDoux18:18

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:19

       ... and not, not totally be aware. Do you remember that story about a woman? She was, uh, I believe she was a publicist, and she got on a plane-

   21. JLJoseph LeDoux18:27

       Good.

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:27

       ... and she was flying to Africa, and she, uh, said, "I'm going to Africa. Hope I don't get AIDS. Just kidding, I'm white. LOL."

   23. JLJoseph LeDoux18:35

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       She thought she was just being funny-

   25. JLJoseph LeDoux18:37

       Uh-huh.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:38

       ... and you laughed, and- (laughs)

   27. JLJoseph LeDoux18:39

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:39

       ... she landed in Africa-

   29. JLJoseph LeDoux18:41

       That must have been a surprise. (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:42

       Ooh. Do you know the story?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Is this because we…

   1. JLJoseph LeDoux30:00

      our special kind of consciousness, uh, enables. But it has a dark side, which is, it also allows us to be incredibly selfish and self-centered and narcissistic, and to, uh, support tribes and groups. And, you know, um, unless we ... I mean, I think our, that the world survives best when y-It's either completely isolated, all the cultures are isolated, or if we could also somehow be together in a more unified way, 'cause the direction we're going now, where each country is isolating itself, but is- is still so entangled with all the others is a recipe dis- for disaster.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:48

      Is this because we evolved essentially without long-term travel? I mean, we kind of evolved to stay in whatever area the resources were in when we were hunters and gatherers-

   3. JLJoseph LeDoux30:59

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:59

      ... and then somewhere along the line, somebody figured out boats and how to get on a horse-

   5. JLJoseph LeDoux31:03

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:03

      ... and the- the next thing you know, you're visiting people.

   7. JLJoseph LeDoux31:05

      I think it's more about, um ... you know, we have a- a- a special kind of inquisitiveness that we can ... because we can mentally model the next step and plan what are the options, you know, try to anticipate the, uh, the problems that are gonna come up, and take those steps. Um, and- and that's a pretty special thing. But it also allows us to plan in a kinda devious way, where, you know, me or my group is gonna benefit, and, uh, if mine benefits, I don't want the other one to benefit 'cause we gotta keep everything separate.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:46

      Hmm.

   9. JLJoseph LeDoux31:47

      So it's- it's, you know, consciousness, our kind of consciousness is our- our, you know, greatest achievement, but also probably our worst aspect.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:56

       Oof. But it's- uh, hmm. But it's what makes us human.

   11. JLJoseph LeDoux32:01

       It is.

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:01

       The- imagining humans with no consciousness is impossible.

   13. JLJoseph LeDoux32:04

       No. No, th- there's no way to go in that direction. That's, uh-

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:07

       So is- is the key to this thing, as the human race, is it managing our consciousness? Or perhaps maybe work like yours, giving us the tools to understand one of the mechanisms involved, that maybe that can help us sort of navigate our biological traps and-

   15. JLJoseph LeDoux32:27

       Maybe. (laughs) I mean, uh, I think it's ... you know, certainly we don't ... I think the- ... I- I mean, I have no idea what your position on, uh, climate change is, but, uh, personally I think that things are happening and something needs to be done.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       That's clearly things are happening.

   17. JLJoseph LeDoux32:43

       And that- you know, there was a- I read a couple of editorials, uh, probably in The New York Times or something, uh, a couple months ago. One was about how yes, the- you know, things are changing and, uh, we have a right to worry, but, you know, we shouldn't worry about the Earth as, um- you know, the famous quote is, "Gaia's a tough bitch." So the Earth will survive, but the configuration of life on it is unlikely to continue to be the same under those conditions. The more the- everything changes, the conditions of life change, and the first things to go, um- and this is what happened to the dinosaurs- are large energy-demanding organisms, because as the conditions change, um, y- you know, the- the climate that we've lived in, we've succeeded because we were able to benefit from that kind of climate. But as the climate begins to change, our kind is not gonna be able to succeed as well because those conditions are- you know, the waters are rising, the deserts are, uh, expanding. All these things are happening and it's just not gonna be, um ... you know, species don't last that long.

   18. JRJoe Rogan34:01

       Right.

   19. JLJoseph LeDoux34:01

       A few- few million years and they go. So our time may be ... (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan34:05

       Well, we've only been around for what?

   21. JLJoseph LeDoux34:07

       Uh-

   22. JRJoe Rogan34:07

       300, 400,000 years and something?

   23. JLJoseph LeDoux34:10

       Mm ... well, it depends on what- what we are.

   24. JRJoe Rogan34:12

       Who you call we, right?

   25. JLJoseph LeDoux34:13

       Yeah, but-

   26. JRJoe Rogan34:13

       And the Neanderthals were around quite a bit longer than that.

   27. JLJoseph LeDoux34:16

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:17

       And they're not here anymore.

   29. JLJoseph LeDoux34:19

       So, uh, we don't have a- uh, I mean, I think that we can use our minds to try and, you know, help us get through this, but that's only gonna work if we can do that collectively. That's the scary part. We have to work together collectively as a world because these are not local issues. These are global issues.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:44

       Yeah. Right.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JLJoseph LeDoux45:00

      about emotion and language. So it's often said that an emotion like fear is universal across the world, but I don't think that's actually correct. What's universal is danger.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:12

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JLJoseph LeDoux45:13

      And the way fear is interpreted by different cultures is obviously different. I mean, different, uh, the Asians have a different kind of a, um, perspective on fear. Every culture has their own perspective on fear. So f- it's ... Fear is the, you know, the, the kind of cultural assembly that you have in your brain in response to danger. So every culture has to have a language of fear, but not because fear is universal, b- because danger is universal.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:42

      Mm-hmm. And what they interpret as danger is different.

   5. JLJoseph LeDoux45:48

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:49

      And fear, for one person, something could, could create fear, whereas for another person, the exact same situation would not-

   7. JLJoseph LeDoux46:00

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:00

      ... depending upon their personal experiences and maybe even their genetic makeup?

   9. JLJoseph LeDoux46:04

      Well, yeah, I mean, g- you know genes contribute, so we, um ... Every part of our brain is under some kind of genetic influence, so every f- for example, the amygdala will be genetically kind of slightly more revved up in one person than another, so a little more sensitive to danger. And so that person might be responding more to danger in part because of genes, but also maybe because of experiences that they've had. Uh, and so then the conscious mind is seeing those responses and starting to conclude, "Oh, I'm an anxious, fearful person." And that ... all of that information gets collected in what's called a fear schema, which is a body of knowledge of everything you know about danger and including the way you rea- you react to danger and your, uh, just, you know, who you are in terms of danger. And so whenever w- you encounter danger, that schema is what's called pattern completed. So presence of a, a threat in the world is enough to go into your brain and activate those memories about danger that give you, uh, in a non-conscious representa- you know, an activation of this fear schema that is what then bubbles up into consciousness. That's your experience of fear, is what has been activated in your fear schema.

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:24

       Knowing what you know and then watching whatever anxieties or fears may play out in your own mind-

   11. JLJoseph LeDoux47:30

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan47:31

       ... is that, for lack of a better term, a mind fuck for you?

   13. JLJoseph LeDoux47:34

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan47:34

       You know what I mean? You, you-

   15. JLJoseph LeDoux47:36

       Well, I mean-

   16. JRJoe Rogan47:37

       ... 'cause you've studied this so much-

   17. JLJoseph LeDoux47:38

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan47:38

       ... but then you're human-

   19. JLJoseph LeDoux47:39

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:39

       ... so I assume you have the same anxieties and fears.

   21. JLJoseph LeDoux47:41

       I have a lot of anxieties. Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:42

       And we all do.

   23. JLJoseph LeDoux47:43

       Yeah. And truthfully, it, it helps to some extent. So I used ... Uh, in 1996, I published a book called The Emotional Brain and a few years later, I, I started finding out from therapists that, um, the, uh ... Uh, a lot of patients were reading the book with their therapist, and they were saying that it was really helping them understand w- why ... you know, how different things were happening, that the, uh, the amygdala was causing them to react in certain situations. But their fear was their conscious understanding-... of those reactions, and those are not the same thing. And that separation helped them, you know, navigate their own situation in, in, in a situation of danger, separating out, "Okay, that's my... body is responding this way, my mind is responding this way, and these are two separate things I need to work on and control."

   24. JRJoe Rogan48:38

       D- have you studied various ways that people mitigate anxiety and fear, like meditation and yoga, and all these different things that sort of change people's states?

   25. JLJoseph LeDoux48:47

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan48:48

       Those-

   27. JLJoseph LeDoux48:48

       I mean, I haven't, I, you know, haven't studied it myself, but, um, uh, I have researched it a bit. Uh, I've tr- I try to do meditation myself, because, uh, I think it's the... probably the most direct and effective way in the moment to... you know, I'm sitting in the room outside waiting for you, I just... had my hat and sunglasses on, just trying to chill out and meditate a little bit, get ready for you.

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:09

       Mm-hmm. Do you do that on a regular basis?

   29. JLJoseph LeDoux49:12

       Uh, you know, it's, it's hard to maintain it, 'cause, uh, life gets busy, and it seems like at the hardest time to do it is when you need it most, right? (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:19

       Yeah. I think it's one of those things like hygiene, where you just sort of have to say, "Well, it's hard to take a shower."
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Hmm. …

   1. JLJoseph LeDoux1:00:00

      to something I'm unconscious of by naming it. Follow that?

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      Hmm.

   3. JLJoseph LeDoux1:00:06

      Other animals can only respond non-verbally. So they don't have that other kind of response that is only reflecting a conscious state. So I'm not saying they don't have anything, but scientifically it's very hard to- to know what they have. And the fact that we can study, uh, we know in, for example, fear, that the fear itself probably doesn't depend on the amygdala.... but the, all the behavior that we see does makes us p- have to be cautious about observing behaviors that look like they're based on fear, love, and all these other emotions, when we can't really know, because we can't measure that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:47

      Oof.

   5. JLJoseph LeDoux1:00:48

      Uh, I mean, it's a tough problem. Again, I'm not saying it's not there.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:51

      (laughs) .

   7. JLJoseph LeDoux1:00:51

      It's just like-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:52

      Right, I get it.

   9. JLJoseph LeDoux1:00:52

      ... scientifically, you know, you have to s-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:54

       You have to be stringent.

   11. JLJoseph LeDoux1:00:55

       ... what's the evidence? (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       Yes, yeah you have to... Now, now measuring it in humans is, I mean, there's this concept of people, "I'm an emotional person."

   13. JLJoseph LeDoux1:01:03

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

       You know, "I'm emotional." Like pe- "I get emotional." Like, people love to say-

   15. JLJoseph LeDoux1:01:07

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

       ... those, those kinda-

   17. JLJoseph LeDoux1:01:09

       Mm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:09

       ... things.

   19. JLJoseph LeDoux1:01:09

       I d-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:09

       What, a- are... Is it possible to measure varying degrees of emotional response in terms of, like, how it's affecting a person physiologically, whether or not these emotional responses are physiological or whether you've gone down a well-grooved psychological path that you've been d- sort of participating in your whole life so that-

   21. JLJoseph LeDoux1:01:34

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

       ... you have these o- sort of triggers? This happens and then, "Oop, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start crying." This happens, "Oop, I'm gonna get angry." And people sort of fall into those paths without self-reflection, without this ability to be objective and introspective and go, "Why am I reacting this way?"

   23. JLJoseph LeDoux1:01:51

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:51

       Like, what... "Maybe you should stop being so emotional, Joe." Right? Is it, anybody ever said that to you?

   25. JLJoseph LeDoux1:01:57

       (laughs) . Uh, p- I guess my wife has said.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:00

       I'm sure. I'm sure.

   27. JLJoseph LeDoux1:02:00

       (laughs) .

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:00

       Well, what does that mean?

   29. JLJoseph LeDoux1:02:01

       Yup.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:01

       Like, what, w- you know what I mean?
6. 1:15:00 – 1:23:46

   Hmm. …

   1. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:00

      and I don't know what the effect of aging on the egg is.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

      Hmm.

   3. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:06

      Uh, I just don't know.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:08

      Well, there's also a big factor with the male sperm.

   5. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:10

      And male sperm, yes.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:10

      And they're thinking that's one of the main contributors to autism-

   7. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:13

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:13

      ... is older men.

   9. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:13

      And schizophrenia supposedly, uh, uh, I've heard, um, uh, that, you know, older fathers are more likely to-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:15:20

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:21

       ... have, uh, male sons that are schizophrenic.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:15:24

       Yeah, that makes sense. It all makes sense.

   13. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:25

       I don't- I wouldn't say that is a fact, but I- I've heard that.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:15:27

       Well, it all makes sense that there'd be some-

   15. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:29

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:15:29

       ... glitches in the matrix, so it's-

   17. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:31

       Yeah, I mean, we're not, you know, we're not supposed to live that long. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

       No. Are we not? But what- what are your thoughts on people that are trying to live longer and- and trying to sort of, uh, squeeze out as much time as they can-

   19. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:42

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:15:42

       ... on this rock?

   21. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:43

       I don't know. It's like, I see a lot of old people that just don't want to live anymore and I understand that. Y- you know, your body starts falling apart, your mind is going, "What's the point at that point?"

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:15:55

       Yeah, I get that.

   23. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:55

       To me-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:15:55

       But what about the people that can keep it together?

   25. JLJoseph LeDoux1:15:57

       Yeah. Yeah, I guess if you keep it together you wanna, like, you know, okay, let's- let's go as far as we can. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:16:03

       (laughs)

   27. JLJoseph LeDoux1:16:04

       Let's go to the moon and, uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:16:05

       Right.

   29. JLJoseph LeDoux1:16:05

       ... go to Mars.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:16:06

       Well, pharmacological solutions to... I mean, if we- if there was some sort of a genetic component that they identified-

Episode duration: 1:47:16