Joe Rogan Experience #1344 - Joseph LeDoux

Joe Rogan 0:03 Here we go. Joe, thank you. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it, man.

Joseph LeDoux 0:06 Oh, it's a pleasure to be here.

Joe Rogan 0:08 This is a fascinating subject. I've been really looking forward to talking to you 'cause, uh, the conscious mind and how we, how we evolved our conscious mind, how we have our conscious mind. I mean, that is, uh, one of the more unique things about being a person.

Joseph LeDoux 0:21 It is.

Joe Rogan 0:22 How did it happen?

Joseph LeDoux 0:23 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:24 (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 0:25 Well, it's only a four-billion-year story, as the subtitle-

Joe Rogan 0:27 Oh, we have some time. (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 0:28 ... of the book says. (laughs) Good. (laughs) So, shall I tell you how I got-

Joe Rogan 0:32 Sure.

Joseph LeDoux 0:33 ... into it and, uh, where, where, how I ended up thinking about that problem? So I'd been working on how the brain detects and responds to danger for most of my scientific career. Uh, a little bit before that, I'd actually studied consciousness in these people who have their brains split apart to control epilepsy, called split-brain patients. So I got interested in consciousness and also in how behaviors that might be produced non-consciously, uh, affect what we know about ourselves. So, uh, we see ourselves doing something, and then we kind of consciously build that into our narrative of what we are. But a lot of what we do, we do non-consciously. And when we interpret it, that kind of, uh, solidifies the fact that you have a non-conscious system that's controlling your behavior, when in fact you, you didn't do it, but that system did, so you gotta make sense of it and generate an explanation, a narrative. So that, uh, that was where I got started, and I tried to figure out, well, what would be some ki- kinds of non-conscious systems and said, "Well, maybe emotion systems are producing behaviors

Joseph LeDoux 1:33 that we don't fully understand." And I started studying that and ended up, uh, figuring out how this part of the brain called the amygdala receives information about the environment and then controls, orchestrates all the responses, fight-flight kinds of responses to help you protect yourself. And the, um, you know, s- after many years of doing that, I started asking, "Well, how far back does this ability to detect and respond to danger go?" We know that bugs and flies can do that, and research had been done showing that, uh, bugs and flies have certain molecules in their brain that are important in these kinds of protective defensive behaviors and including the ability to learn about them and store those as memories. So it's easier to work on those little tiny, um, uh, invertebrates than it is to do studies in a complex brain, even like a rat brain, which is pretty complex. Um, so given that what these people had discovered about invertebrates, I and others who were studying, uh, mammals decided to see if the same molecules might be involved in mammalian learning, and in fact it was. So now that raises the question, you've got the same molecules doing the same thing, the same molecules, the same genes doing the same thing in ancient invertebrates and in, uh, and animals like us. So you ask, where back in time is the ancestor that

Joseph LeDoux 3:03 made that possible? You know, if we've got the same genes, either it kinda happened spontaneously separately or there's a common ancestor. And indeed there's a common ancestor, and that goes back to the first organism, first animal that had a bilateral body, which means it had a left, right, front, and a back, uh, and a top and a bottom. So it has kind of three-dimensional sides. Before that, there were animals like jellyfish that were radial, they had, but no front and back. They just have a, a top and a bottom. And before that, there's sponges, which have no front, back, top, bottom. They're just kind of randomly organized. So that's kind of the, that's the story of animals, sponges to jellyfish to these bilateral animals. So the ancestor, uh, the, the, the bilateral animal that we're talking about gave rise to those two lines, one that became all these invertebrates like flies and bugs and snails and octopus and all those things, and another to animals like us, vertebrates, all the, um, fish, reptiles, mammals, birds, and so forth. So those are two separate lines that inherited these genes that make the memory and defensive behavior possible. So you say, "Well, how far back then it, does it stop there?" And no, it doesn't because you can find those genes on through jellyfish and then keep going into single-cell organisms. Now, these are like protozoa, uh, things that give you intestinal, um, their, uh, intestinal parasites so they can, you know, give you upset stomach. And, um, things like amoeba, paramecia that you might have heard of in, you know, biology class in high school or something. Um, these have no nervous system, and yet they detect and respond to danger, they learn about their environment, they do all these sorts of things. And where did they come from? Well, if you go all the way back to where they came from, uh, even simpler kind of organism, s- still single-cell, of course, like bacterial cells. Now these guys go back to the beginning of life. The first cell that ever lived some 3.7 billion years ago that gave rise to the entire history of life was a bacterial-like cell that started dividing. Now what's interesting, that cell that started dividing is the mother of every bacterial cell that ever lived. So that cell is, uh, it's, it's more like its rep- you know, that cell is still alive because it's, they reproduce by cell division. So that stell- cell just keeps reproducing, and part of that first cell ever is still with us today in all the bacterial cells that are, that are around. Uh, it's kind of a mind-blowing thing, isn't it? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:52 It's incredibly mind-blowing. (laughs) Do we have any idea why the first cell decided to divide?

Joseph LeDoux 5:57 Well, (clears throat) i- it, this, I shouldn't say it's the first cell that decided to divide. This, it's the first cell-

Joe Rogan 6:02 Bacterial cell?

Joseph LeDoux 6:03 It's the first cell that-... was able to, to sustain life long enough to give off offspring that could s- sustain and sustain and sustain.

Joe Rogan 6:12 Uh-huh.

Joseph LeDoux 6:13 So there were probably lots of experiments before a kind of cell or kind of group of cells had the right stuff to be able to do that. So they ... those others never made it because they didn't have quite enough of what it took to be a cell that could do that. (smacks lips) So the first cell, I mean, it's kind of a hypothetical cell. It's called LUCA, the last universal common ancestor of life.

Joe Rogan 6:36 Whoa.

Joseph LeDoux 6:36 Yeah. (laughs) And that ... so that's about 3.7, 3.8 billion years ago. Um, but it could have been a bunch of cells, you know, a collection of cells, cell types, uh, that, that ... one of which then, you know, populated all of life.

Joe Rogan 6:52 The weird thing about life is not just that it's different and it varies so much, but that it's e- it's ever-increasing in its complexity.

Joseph LeDoux 7:03 Well-

Joe Rogan 7:03 If you go back to the single cell and then you come all the way-

Joseph LeDoux 7:07 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 7:07 ... to today, to a person-

Joseph LeDoux 7:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:08 ... like what a weird-

Joseph LeDoux 7:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:10 ... sort of transformation it is.

Joseph LeDoux 7:11 Well, uh, you know, it's dangerous to talk about as if we're moving towards some kind of goal, you know, like-

Joe Rogan 7:18 Right. Is it dangerous?

Joseph LeDoux 7:19 ... w- that, that we are the goal.

Joe Rogan 7:20 Well, I'm not saying we're the-

Joseph LeDoux 7:21 We're not the goal.

Joe Rogan 7:21 I don't think we're the goal.

Joseph LeDoux 7:22 No, we're not. We're definitely not the goal.

Joe Rogan 7:23 I, I'm, I've been more and more thinking that artificial life-

Joseph LeDoux 7:26 (clears throat) .

Joe Rogan 7:26 ... is the goal.

Joseph LeDoux 7:27 Mm-hmm. Well, th- I mean, there's no goal of life.

Joe Rogan 7:30 Right, of course.

Joseph LeDoux 7:31 The- there's ... survival is the only goal of every organism, and that's, uh, that's what that first cell was able to do, is to generate a set of biological properties that could st- sustain itself long enough to reproduce. That's all you have to do, be ... you have to live long enough to reproduce. And to do that, you have to have energy resources, so you have to incorporate nutrients. You've gotta balance your fluids. Otherwise, you know, you have to keep your ions straight or your ... the, the cell will get too big and explode or get too small and collapse. You've gotta thermoregulate 'cause all of these things depend on the right kind of internal temperature, and you have to reproduce. Those are the, the survival requirements of a cell, but they're also the survival requirements of a human. So the same things that a bacterial cell has to do to live through the day and create a species is exactly what we do every day to reproduce ourselves. We have to eat, drink, defend against danger, uh, incorporate nutrients and balance fluids and ions that way, uh, defend, you know, reproduce. And so that was the mind-blowing thing. See, I wrote the whole ... three quarters of the book as a scientific journalist because I didn't know any of this, this stuff. I had to just learn it, uh, and it was a lot of fun, but it took a long time. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:50 I would imagine.

Joseph LeDoux 8:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:51 When y- when you think about the original LUCA and then human beings, do you ever try to extrapolate? Do you ever try to, like, y- keep the, the process rolling in your mind and see where, where's this gonna go?

Joseph LeDoux 9:02 Oh, yeah. Uh, so the end of the book, I paint a not-so-rosy picture of where it's going. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:09 Oh, Jesus. (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 9:09 Well, you know, we ... so l- let's talk about the end of the book. So-

Joe Rogan 9:14 Okay.

Joseph LeDoux 9:14 ... um, I, you know, say, "Okay, well, our ... we have these two kinds of, of, uh, significant experiences in our lives that, uh, that occupy the human mind." One is the kind that, uh, we can call an awareness of facts, you know, "I ... this thing is here," and the other is what we might call, um, a self-awareness where the ... I ... it's, it's me that is aware that that is a bottle. So that's a s- that's a higher level, and that is what appears to be unique to the human mind, the ability to represent the self as a subject. In other words, to have these subjective experiences that have a personal past. It's not just the past, but your past. You lived it. And a personal present and a potential future that you can imagine different scenarios of you existing in, in the future. So that requires, uh ... I mean, th- that's called autonoetic consciousness, the ability to, to self-know about where you are in time. And it depends ... the- this is an idea that was proposed by a guy named Endel Tulving, a very distinguished psychologist who's, uh, retired now. (smacks lips) But, uh, his idea was that, um, the unique aspect of, of the human mind is mental time travel, the ability to project ourselves in the past, present, and future. And without that kind of consciousness, we're limited to kind of factual information. Something is there. You know, that might ... I might be able to say, "Oh, food is there," or, "Drink is there," or, "A sexual partner is there," but not necessarily that I want that food. I want ... you know. You might have a kind of biological urge towards it. Now, from the outside, it looks like everything we do is intentional and willful. So I think I'm controlling my behavior. You think you're controlling yours. I see you do something that I might have done in a similar situation. I think you intentionally control that. We see a dog doing something that would be similar to what we do, we think we know why the dog is doing that because it had some intention. But the fact is, if we start taking these things apart in the brain, we see that the systems that control very simple behaviors are not the ones that are doing all this

Joseph LeDoux 11:45 high-level conscious thought. Take the example of, uh, the area I've worked on for all these years, which is threat detection. Um, now, the ... this part of the brain called the amygdala is key to the detection and response to threat in a kind of basic sense. Um, you know, a threat comes up, you freeze if there's a snake, for example. Um, now, it's all ... because of that, it's been assumed that the reason you freeze is because you're afraid.And therefore, that the amygdala is also making the fear, because the amygdala experiences the fear, and that's why you produce the response. But I've... for, for the longest time in... th- throughout most of my career, I've said the amygdala does not consciously experience fear. And yet my work has been used to kind of sell and, uh, and defend this idea of the amygdala is the brain's fear center, and I think that's completely wrong. The-

Joe Rogan 12:41 Why do you think it's been misinterpreted?

Joseph LeDoux 12:44 It's a long, complicated, uh, story, but it... you know, it's... it... partly, it's my fault because I was not, um, as vigilant as I should have been when I was describing it. See, what I did was I'd... I would talk about the amygdala as a non-conscious state of fear, non-conscious implicit fear. Um, and I would... I would say that while the neocortex is where we consciously experience fear and those are separate. But that was too complicated. The... you know, the journalists kind of ignored it and it was just... it just became the amygdala is the brain's fear center. Even the scientists ignored it because, you know, we were studying and... you know, I, I kind of gave up after a while and said, "Okay, we talk about it in terms of fear." Um, because... you know, that... there was a lot of money to be, um, directed towards research, if you're studying fear and how you could treat that. But I think it's... you know, it's been kind of a, a wrong path because it's led to the development of medications that don't really work. So all the big companies are getting out of, of the anti-anxiety business, anti-fear business because people still feel fearful or anxious when they take them.

Joe Rogan 13:58 You mean like Xanax, things along those lines?

Joseph LeDoux 14:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 14:01 Companies are getting out of the Xanax business?

Joseph LeDoux 14:03 Um, benzos, Xanax, yeah. I mean, they're not... the... either that or repurposing them to... for other purposes, you know. But so what happens is you... the way these things... you know, the... these things... the basic drugs were discovered in the 60s, uh, almost accidentally in some cases, you know, not rather than by some hypothesis. So the only thing that's been discovered since then is more versions of the same thing with, you know, slightly fewer side effects. But there's been no new discovery of a new kind of drug that's gonna help people. And why is that? Well, the, the way the drugs are discovered is they take a rat or a mouse, put it in a challenging situation, give it some different medications, and the ones that make the animal less timid in those situations is assumed to make the animal less fearful, and that's why he's less timid. So when you give it to a person, they should be less fearful. But what you find is, say, a person with social anxiety might find it easier to go to the party, they're less timid, but still anxious while they're there. And the reason is, that we now know, is that damage to the amygdala in a person doesn't necessarily also eliminate the feeling of fear. It gets rid of the, the body responses, but not the feeling.

Joe Rogan 15:17 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 15:18 So it was a misunderstanding of what behavior can tell us. We treat behavior as if it's an ambassador of the mind, but behavior is really a tool of survival that goes back to those first cells that ever lived who had to defend against danger. Bacterial cells move in the... in the water and then they come across, like, you know, a, a gradient of some chemical that's a toxin. As soon as they detect that, they bounce away and go in a different direction. If they are go-... if they find a gradient of something that is a nutrient, they keep going and, and absorb it. So they have the ability to detect what's useful and harmful in their lives. These are not... these are not there for psychology, they're simply there to keep the organism alive. And many of the behaviors that persist throughout the whole history of life are like that. They're there because each of the cell and... cells in the body has to, you know, do all these things to stay alive, and so the organism as a whole has to do it as well. Defend against danger, incorporate nutrients, balance fluids, thermoregulate, reproduce. So these are survival tools, not mind tools. Now, we can use our mind in conjunction with these things, uh, and because we can, we conflate every time we're freezing in the front of a snake to the fact that the fear is what's causing it. But the fear is a separate process. It's the awareness that that stuff is happening to you.

Joe Rogan 16:46 The awareness that that stuff is happening to you. So-

Joseph LeDoux 16:48 So, so no self, no fear.

Joe Rogan 16:50 Oh.

Joseph LeDoux 16:51 That's my T-shirt there. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:52 Whoa. That's deep.

Joseph LeDoux 16:53 That's my merch on the, the book. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:56 (laughs) Now, how do things like Xanax work? What, what's the mechanical process?

Joseph LeDoux 17:03 Okay. So the, um... that's a part of the class of drugs called benzodiazepine, and they, um, will... they bind to receptors in the brain. The brain has receptors for all kinds of, uh, uh, chemicals, and many of these things are things that exist in nature, and what... that they want... that they bind to is a receptor called the GABA receptor, which is the major inhibitory transmitter in the brain. So when you have a benzodiazepine binding to a GABA receptor, what it's gonna do is increase inhibition. So the... you know, the kind of simple reason why those things can help is they kind of inhibit, so they tone down the brain a bit, and so things that would normally trigger a response no longer trigger it. So it's like increasing the threshold for something to bother you in a sense.

Joe Rogan 17:59 And a lot of people enjoy that with alcohol. They're not supposed to?

Joseph LeDoux 18:03 Well, uh, alcohol also attacks those receptors-

Joe Rogan 18:06 Yes. Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 18:06 ... so it's like, uh... you get double the, the effect.

Joe Rogan 18:08 Right. Is that why they tell people, "Don't have Xanax with alcohol"?

Joseph LeDoux 18:10 Uh, yeah, 'cause you can... you know, if you... if you take a lot of Xanax and drink a lot of booze, you can OD.

Joe Rogan 18:16 Or you could just say crazy things-

Joseph LeDoux 18:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:19 ... and not, not totally be aware. Do you remember that story about a woman? She was, uh, I believe she was a publicist, and she got on a plane-

Joseph LeDoux 18:27 Good.

Joe Rogan 18:27 ... and she was flying to Africa, and she, uh, said, "I'm going to Africa. Hope I don't get AIDS. Just kidding, I'm white. LOL."

Joseph LeDoux 18:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:35 She thought she was just being funny-

Joseph LeDoux 18:37 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 18:38 ... and you laughed, and- (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 18:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:39 ... she landed in Africa-

Joseph LeDoux 18:41 That must have been a surprise. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:42 Ooh. Do you know the story?

Joseph LeDoux 18:43 No, but there are other stories like that.

Joe Rogan 18:45 Oh, my God. This, this was one of the original stories of someone ruining their entire life-

Joseph LeDoux 18:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:49 ... with just putting, uh, you know, one little tweet-

Joseph LeDoux 18:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:52 ... online. She thought she was being funny. Like-

Joseph LeDoux 18:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:54 ... she, she would say a bunch of snarky things like that, a bunch of funny, trying to be funny.

Joseph LeDoux 18:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:59 Uh, but she was on Xanax and drinking-

Joseph LeDoux 19:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:02 ... and woke up, uh, w- completely oblivious-

Joseph LeDoux 19:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 19:06 ... and her life had been destroyed.

Joseph LeDoux 19:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:08 She was fired. You know, she was a social pariah. And I'm, I'm pretty sure that was-

Joseph LeDoux 19:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:14 ... Xanax and alcohol that she was blaming it on.

Joseph LeDoux 19:17 Yeah, well, uh, you know, these are powerful drugs. And so, you know, back to how they, they work-

Joe Rogan 19:24 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 19:24 ... and they work. So a drug like that, all of the drugs that, that we take go to the entire body, you know. They don't, they're not able to just, you know, find their way to one little spot in the brain and do their trick. There, there's this, you know, talk about magic bullet brai- uh, bullet drugs that might be able to be targeted for specific circuits, and, but that's, uh, you know, fantasy at this point. So if you reduce inhibition in the entire brain, yes, you might reduce, you know, anxiety, but you're also gonna change a lot of other things. So you're gonna make, um, um, for example, forethought and, uh, ability to rein in things like the, the stuff the woman was saying, uh, more difficult because they're attacking the prefrontal cortex where you have some inhibitory control over behavior. Um, they're going to alter your ability to retrieve and store memories and to be a- to attend to things. And, um, you know, to the extent that these drugs have a, a positive effect on some people, um, it's been said that part of the reason is that it's kind of a general blunting of emotion. It's not an anti-anxiety drug, it's just kind of a dulling of everything, and you get anxiety, anti-anxiety as, as a part of that. But if we wanna understand how to do better, um, we have to, you know, figure out what the, the brain circuit that's really making us anxious is, and not just what's making us, you know, not, not toning down everything. It's kind of like, you know, you go to restaurant, the music's too loud. Somebody says, "Please turn it down," so they turn it down a little bit. The music stays the same, it's the same song, but it's not as annoying, you know-

Joe Rogan 21:14 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 21:14 ... 'cause you've turned the volume down. And I think that's what a lot of what these, uh, medications can do, is turn the volume down a bit or turn it up, you know, depending on what you do.

Joe Rogan 21:23 Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some sort of a slingshot effect, like after you take these things and your anxiety is ramped up afterwards?

Joseph LeDoux 21:30 Well, there can be a rebound, uh-

Joe Rogan 21:32 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 21:32 ... effect. There can also be kind of a, a lot of people next day feel depressed-

Joe Rogan 21:37 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 21:37 ... you know, because it just, the, the stuff is out of your system and just kind of blah. You know, if you take, it's kind of like taking sleeping pills. Things like Ambien are of the same general category of drug, benzodiazepines, and so you get this hangover the next day.

Joe Rogan 21:52 Oh, okay. So it's just a physiological response to the medication?

Joseph LeDoux 21:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:55 It's not that if you alleviate some anxiety, then the anxiety wants to come back even stronger?

Joseph LeDoux 22:00 Well, no, I mean, so I, you know, I've of- I've proposed in my, in my previous book that, uh, we each have a, an anxiety set point that, um, you know, that let's say you, you're worried about something and all of a sudden that gets resolved. Whew. That just makes room for the next thing to worry about.

Joe Rogan 22:20 Oh.

Joseph LeDoux 22:20 So, you know, we each kind of fill that void because our brain is, you know, we've developed a brain that has a certain kinda set point for everything it's doing, and that just makes room for, you know, to fill that, fill that up. If you're an anxious person, you probably will always be somewhat anxious, so there's no magic bullet that's gonna take that out. What you have to do is attack the process from knowledge of how it all works, and that requires that we have a more sophisticated understanding that we're, than, uh, is possible from simply observing behavior because behavior does not tell you necessarily what's on the mind. Behavior tells you how the, the, the brain has responded. But, you know, just to go back to the, the fear threat example, um, when, let's say I, uh, bring you into the laboratory and show you a picture of something like a, a blue square. Uh, my colleague, Liz Felt, who used to be at, at NYU, is now at Harvard, did experiments like this. Uh, and every time the blue square would come on, the person would get a mild shock to their finger. And so then she would present the blue square subliminally, that means, you know, really quickly with a, you know, something that follows it that kinda masks it, and that prevents the information from getting into the conscious mind, uh, and so the person says, "I didn't see anything." But if you put the person in an imaging machine, FMRI, and, uh, image what's happening, that stimulus, that threat, the blue square gets to the amygdala, turns it on, the heart begins to race, palms are sweating, um, but the person has no fear.

Joe Rogan 24:07 Hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 24:07 The person doesn't know it's there and doesn't experience fear. The amygdala is not about fear. It's about detecting and responding to danger. In order to be afraid, that has to reach your conscious mind so that you can experience it.... as a state of this autonomic consciousness that we're talking about, a self-involved consciousness.

Joe Rogan 24:30 That's hard for people to separate-

Joseph LeDoux 24:31 Yeah. Well, the-

Joe Rogan 24:32 ... the idea that there's a, a physical response, but that your mind's unaware of it.

Joseph LeDoux 24:36 Right. But when you understand that, that's why you come to understand that's why the medications are not working. They're targeted to work on these underlying systems in rats, or mice, but that's not where we are experiencing our anxiety.

Joe Rogan 24:49 But these, these medications are very profitable, right?

Joseph LeDoux 24:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:52 I mean, people enjoy it, millions of prescriptions get written.

Joseph LeDoux 24:54 Yeah, but-

Joe Rogan 24:54 A- are they just gonna phase those out? What do you mean?

Joseph LeDoux 24:56 They'll probably ... You know, I c- it ... They're probably all going off patent, and because the company can't find anything new, they're not gonna keep pursuing it because, you know, it's not gonna be a profit anymore.

Joe Rogan 25:08 But d- don't people still want them? I mean, it seems like that's a really popular medication.

Joseph LeDoux 25:13 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, so it'll be like, uh, they'll go to, um ... You know, they'll become, uh, you know, generics, and people will be able to get them for less money.

Joe Rogan 25:23 And they'll just do with whatever they want.

Joseph LeDoux 25:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:26 Off-label, whatever.

Joseph LeDoux 25:27 Yeah. I mean, it's ... Y- you know, it's ... I- I do think that, for example, the drugs that are available do help people, because it's important to reduce the behavioral timidity and the physiological arousal that goes with that. 'Cause if you don't treat that, then the conscious, uh, um, mind will be reactivated by those responses. If you only treat the conscious mind, then, uh, the physiological stuff will bring the conscious stuff back.

Joe Rogan 26:00 Mm.

Joseph LeDoux 26:00 You know, everything will bring back the everything else unless you treat the whole system. And you have t- to, to do that, you have to understand the system. And we've just misunderstood it, I think, for so long.

Joe Rogan 26:11 (sighs) I have a friend who, he takes it every day, takes Xanax every day.

Joseph LeDoux 26:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:16 And he says he needs it.

Joseph LeDoux 26:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:18 He says without it, he's just a-

Joseph LeDoux 26:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:20 ... a mess.

Joseph LeDoux 26:22 Well, you know, whatever gets you through the day, I guess, you know? It's ... I'm n- I'm not a therapist. I'm not, like-

Joe Rogan 26:26 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 26:27 ... adv- advocating that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:28 I know, I understand. But from your perspective, from an understanding of the human mind-

Joseph LeDoux 26:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:31 ... and all the systems that are at work, it seems like that's really not the way to do it.

Joseph LeDoux 26:36 Yeah. I mean, it's ... Y- you know, I'm sure that that's th- ... You know, it's ... In a sense, maybe that's, uh, his crutch, his way to get through the day.

Joe Rogan 26:45 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 26:45 And, um, he's come to believe that he needs that.

Joe Rogan 26:49 Much like an alcoholic believes they need a drink.

Joseph LeDoux 26:51 Yup.

Joe Rogan 26:52 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 26:52 Um, but I'm not calling him and, you know.

Joe Rogan 26:54 Well, I'll call him. (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 26:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:57 Uh, he does like to drink too.

Joseph LeDoux 26:58 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:59 But he's a great guy. Uh, (laughs) w- these, uh, these systems that are in place and the ... all of the various things that have gotten us to 2019 as-

Joseph LeDoux 27:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:10 ... human species, w- when you study anxiety and you study fear and all these d- different things, is, are w- are we experiencing high levels of it because there's not as much real physical danger as our ancestors experienced, and it's almost like we're looking for it when it's not necessarily there? Like, we're, we're programmed to be able to deal with it?

Joseph LeDoux 27:33 Yeah, that's a, a good point. Um, I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think that's a good way to think about it. I mean, you know, the philosopher Kierkegaard said that, "Anxiety is the price we pay for the human ability to choose."

Joe Rogan 27:47 Mm.

Joseph LeDoux 27:48 And this is where our autonomic consciousness comes in, our ability to, to think of ourselves as having a past and a future, and to be able to, to, to plan and choose in the future. You know, he said it started with Adam making the first choice as a human in the Garden of Eden, and that was where it all, uh, began. Um, so ... And our ability ... You know, you can rephrase that statement by saying, "Our ability, um, to choose is, um, what allows us to be anxious." Because that is, um, what anxiety is. A worry about what we're ... Have we ... Are we gonna make the right decision? You know, how can we deal with this thing that's coming up? It's a worry about the future.

Joe Rogan 28:30 Yeah, and the ability to think about the possibilities-

Joseph LeDoux 28:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:34 ... like, what could go wrong?

Joseph LeDoux 28:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:35 What could go right? Am I doing the right thing?

Joseph LeDoux 28:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:37 And then to contemplate all those various choices-

Joseph LeDoux 28:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:42 ... anxiety.

Joseph LeDoux 28:42 Yeah. So, like, you know, you're, you're walking through the woods. There's a snake. You might freeze, but almost instantly, that fear that is generated by you freezing and seeing the snake, um, morphs into anxiety, you know? Will the snake bite me?

Joe Rogan 28:57 Mm.

Joseph LeDoux 28:58 If it bites me, will I get to a doctor? Will he have the antidote? If I die, what'll happen to my family? You know, does ... That's worry, that's anxiety. So these are ... They're s- they're kind of separate-

Joe Rogan 29:08 Hm.

Joseph LeDoux 29:08 Fears about, uh, a s- a danger that's present, anxieties about one that hasn't happened yet, but almost always, as soon as you're afraid, that makes you anxious about what's gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 29:18 And then there's general existential angst.

Joseph LeDoux 29:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:22 The, the, just-

Joseph LeDoux 29:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:23 ... the, the f- the life itself-

Joseph LeDoux 29:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:25 ... the existence-

Joseph LeDoux 29:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:26 ... is the, just a, "What is this?"

Joseph LeDoux 29:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:29 "What ... " (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 29:30 Yeah. And all of that is due to, um, our prefrontal cortex, our ability to conceptualize, to, um, you know, imagine things that, that have never been imagined before, to create art, to build, to create architecture, build buildings, imagine going to the moon, designing a, th- an instrument to do that and actually pulling it off, and make sure it could get back. All of that is something that our special kind of consciousness, uh, enables. But it has a dark side, which is, it also allows us to be incredibly selfish and self-centered and narcissistic, and to, uh, support tribes and groups. And, you know, um, unless we ... I mean, I think our, that the world survives best when y-It's either completely isolated, all the cultures are isolated, or if we could also somehow be together in a more unified way, 'cause the direction we're going now, where each country is isolating itself, but is- is still so entangled with all the others is a recipe dis- for disaster.

Joe Rogan 30:48 Is this because we evolved essentially without long-term travel? I mean, we kind of evolved to stay in whatever area the resources were in when we were hunters and gatherers-

Joseph LeDoux 30:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:59 ... and then somewhere along the line, somebody figured out boats and how to get on a horse-

Joseph LeDoux 31:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:03 ... and the- the next thing you know, you're visiting people.

Joseph LeDoux 31:05 I think it's more about, um ... you know, we have a- a- a special kind of inquisitiveness that we can ... because we can mentally model the next step and plan what are the options, you know, try to anticipate the, uh, the problems that are gonna come up, and take those steps. Um, and- and that's a pretty special thing. But it also allows us to plan in a kinda devious way, where, you know, me or my group is gonna benefit, and, uh, if mine benefits, I don't want the other one to benefit 'cause we gotta keep everything separate.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 31:47 So it's- it's, you know, consciousness, our kind of consciousness is our- our, you know, greatest achievement, but also probably our worst aspect.

Joe Rogan 31:56 Oof. But it's- uh, hmm. But it's what makes us human.

Joseph LeDoux 32:01 It is.

Joe Rogan 32:01 The- imagining humans with no consciousness is impossible.

Joseph LeDoux 32:04 No. No, th- there's no way to go in that direction. That's, uh-

Joe Rogan 32:07 So is- is the key to this thing, as the human race, is it managing our consciousness? Or perhaps maybe work like yours, giving us the tools to understand one of the mechanisms involved, that maybe that can help us sort of navigate our biological traps and-

Joseph LeDoux 32:27 Maybe. (laughs) I mean, uh, I think it's ... you know, certainly we don't ... I think the- ... I- I mean, I have no idea what your position on, uh, climate change is, but, uh, personally I think that things are happening and something needs to be done.

Joe Rogan 32:42 That's clearly things are happening.

Joseph LeDoux 32:43 And that- you know, there was a- I read a couple of editorials, uh, probably in The New York Times or something, uh, a couple months ago. One was about how yes, the- you know, things are changing and, uh, we have a right to worry, but, you know, we shouldn't worry about the Earth as, um- you know, the famous quote is, "Gaia's a tough bitch." So the Earth will survive, but the configuration of life on it is unlikely to continue to be the same under those conditions. The more the- everything changes, the conditions of life change, and the first things to go, um- and this is what happened to the dinosaurs- are large energy-demanding organisms, because as the conditions change, um, y- you know, the- the climate that we've lived in, we've succeeded because we were able to benefit from that kind of climate. But as the climate begins to change, our kind is not gonna be able to succeed as well because those conditions are- you know, the waters are rising, the deserts are, uh, expanding. All these things are happening and it's just not gonna be, um ... you know, species don't last that long.

Joe Rogan 34:01 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 34:01 A few- few million years and they go. So our time may be ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:05 Well, we've only been around for what?

Joseph LeDoux 34:07 Uh-

Joe Rogan 34:07 300, 400,000 years and something?

Joseph LeDoux 34:10 Mm ... well, it depends on what- what we are.

Joe Rogan 34:12 Who you call we, right?

Joseph LeDoux 34:13 Yeah, but-

Joe Rogan 34:13 And the Neanderthals were around quite a bit longer than that.

Joseph LeDoux 34:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:17 And they're not here anymore.

Joseph LeDoux 34:19 So, uh, we don't have a- uh, I mean, I think that we can use our minds to try and, you know, help us get through this, but that's only gonna work if we can do that collectively. That's the scary part. We have to work together collectively as a world because these are not local issues. These are global issues.

Joe Rogan 34:44 Yeah. Right.

Joseph LeDoux 34:44 And that- who- how is that gonna happen? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:45 Good luck getting- you know, especially getting other countries like China to comply and-

Joseph LeDoux 34:50 Yeah. But yeah, you see-

Joe Rogan 34:52 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 34:52 ... the small successes, I mean, like auto companies deciding, "Well, we need to, you know, rein in the emissions," and they- there's probably a profit motive, uh, underlying that at some point.

Joe Rogan 35:03 Sure. And people are conscious. There's green dollars.

Joseph LeDoux 35:06 Yeah. Right.

Joe Rogan 35:06 Right? Like you wanna- l- uh, like when- when you think about technological achievements and you think about the- the conscious mind and the ability to create and the creative process, do you envision the possibility of some sort of a technological solution to a lot of the problems that we're facing?

Joseph LeDoux 35:26 I think it has to be a social solution.

Joe Rogan 35:28 Social. How so?

Joseph LeDoux 35:31 We have to ... we- we have to figure out how to balance this worldwide. You can't ... this- we can do whatever we want in this country, if we could do what we want. But, you know, if- if, uh- i- if- even if we were the best country in the world for the environment, that wouldn't solve the problem. You know, it's- it's a worldwide problem. You know, the Amazon forest, that's affecting a lot of people, you know. The- it's just not a- it's not a simple thing that one country can solve.

Joe Rogan 36:06 Right. But if one country takes steps-

Joseph LeDoux 36:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:10 ... and imposes some sort of a technological solution that pulls carbon from-

Joseph LeDoux 36:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:15 ... the atmosphere, that does, uh, enhance some sort of a cooling process to bring homeostasis, to bring some sort of a, like, generally agreed-upon state-

Joseph LeDoux 36:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:26 ... of the environment, if that's technologically possible, I mean, that's going to come out of the creative mind.

Joseph LeDoux 36:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:31 Right?

Joseph LeDoux 36:31 Well, you know, I don't wanna go too far off into my-... not area of expertise like climate-

Joe Rogan 36:37 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 36:37 ... and it's all that. I just think there's- I think of it from the, kind of the social perspective and what our brains are contributing.

Joe Rogan 36:43 But even if it's...

Joseph LeDoux 36:43 But I, I don't wanna... I, I don't think I can really address the details of all that, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:47 Right. But even, like, socially, if we did address it socially, we're still gonna have to d- deal with the actual physical limitations-

Joseph LeDoux 36:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:54 ... of the, just the environment that we live in and what we've done.

Joseph LeDoux 36:58 Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 36:58 How to, somehow or another, mitigate it.

Joseph LeDoux 37:01 Yeah. I agree.

Joe Rogan 37:03 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 37:03 So, but yeah, so I think, you know, creators coming along and trying to find technical solutions, that's great.

Joe Rogan 37:10 When you analyze the human mind, and knowing what you know about the thought processes and the way people think and work, when you see people in denial of climate change, and when you see people that are s- so enamored with the, the concept of capitalism and big business that they don't really think that it's a big deal, or they want to deny that it's a big deal-

Joseph LeDoux 37:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:32 ... so that they can continue short-term profits-

Joseph LeDoux 37:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:35 ... what is that, like, those mechanisms-

Joseph LeDoux 37:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:38 ... like, wa- watching that take place in the monkey mind-

Joseph LeDoux 37:40 (laughs) Yeah, well-

Joe Rogan 37:41 ... what are you, what are you thinking when you see that happen with humans?

Joseph LeDoux 37:44 I, you know, I d- I don't think it's simple. Um, it's not simply denial of climate change (clears throat) for climate reasons. I think there's a lot of, um, social, you know, within certain groups, there is social stigma for being pro-environment.

Joe Rogan 38:04 Yes.

Joseph LeDoux 38:05 And so it, it's, um-

Joe Rogan 38:07 Tribal.

Joseph LeDoux 38:08 Yeah, tribal. It's, it's, uh, people, you know, people cling together and it's a kind of form of self-protection, um, that by identifying a set of issues that we all can agree upon, um, because they're kind of dictated top-down in a sense, that, uh, are our thing, and then that thing is somebody else's thing, so...

Joe Rogan 38:33 Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a weird aspect of being a human being, right?

Joseph LeDoux 38:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:37 These tribal identity things where if you're in this group, you must be pro-choice.

Joseph LeDoux 38:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:43 If you're in this group, you must be pro-life.

Joseph LeDoux 38:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:45 You must be anti-war.

Joseph LeDoux 38:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:47 You must be pro-Second Amendment. You know, like, there's, uh, very little deviation and...

Joseph LeDoux 38:51 Right. And that, that's left-right, that's everything.

Joe Rogan 38:53 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 38:53 I mean, the, the belief systems, rigid belief systems are, you know, part of, uh, just part of being.

Joe Rogan 39:00 And when you look at politics and you know that these belief systems are p- when... Do you, do you find it odd that we have these, like, sort of polar opposites or atat at least left-right choices, these red-blue choices that we've limited ourselves to these very distinct tribes?

Joseph LeDoux 39:16 Right. Uh, and that's, yeah, I think that's unfortunate, but that's where we are.

Joe Rogan 39:21 Is there a way out of that?

Joseph LeDoux 39:23 Uh, you know, I think the political scientists have to (laughs) take that one up.

Joe Rogan 39:27 W- we're going down a, we're going down a weird road. What do you think is the source of creativity? Like, somewhere along the line, I mean, and we've seen it, right? I mean, there's some speculation and scientists have sort of generally agreed that some monkeys are in the Stone Age, that some primates are i- in what would be considered Stone Age. They're starting to use tools, they're starting to use sticks.

Joseph LeDoux 39:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:50 And there's a famous photograph that I love of an orangutan. Where are we gonna get a ph- a copy of that? We should get that orangutan with a spear. Can we make a note of that? There's a crazy orangutan image of a- an orangutan holding onto a branch and then spearfishing.

Joseph LeDoux 40:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:05 It's amazing.

Joseph LeDoux 40:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:06 And apparently-

Joseph LeDoux 40:07 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 40:07 ... he had seen humans do it.

Joseph LeDoux 40:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:09 So that's where he learned the behavior.

Joseph LeDoux 40:11 By imitation, right?

Joe Rogan 40:12 Yes. But still, that is a primate using a weapon-

Joseph LeDoux 40:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:16 ... to try to spearfish. Look at this photo.

Joseph LeDoux 40:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:18 See what I mean? Is that incredible?

Joseph LeDoux 40:21 (laughs) Nice.

Joe Rogan 40:21 I mean, that is incredible. I mean, that's, like, really thoughtful and skillful. And the way he's hanging, I mean, my goodness. Look at that. I f- I love that picture. That picture's amazing.

Joseph LeDoux 40:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:34 Now, th- this c- the creativity that allows you to get food when you couldn't get food, allows you to escape from environmental conditions, allows you to escape from predators, all these things are rewarded by the continuing of your genetics.

Joseph LeDoux 40:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:50 So-

Joseph LeDoux 40:50 But there are other things that come into play. One of the specialties that, uh, that came along, I think is a byproduct of having language, and by language I don't mean words, but what language did, but what was required for language to come out of the brain, which is the development of a cognitive sort of architecture in our brain that allowed all kinds of, um, mental jumping around. So for example, um, for most animals to learn, you know, who to trust and who not to trust and what some- what who's- what, in any given situation, who's gonna do what to whom by just looking around, they have to go through trial and error learning and see the experience all of that a lot. But the human mind can simulate, create a mental model, and instantaneously make those kinds of, uh, predictions on the basis of very limited information. Um, and this is based on something... Well, we, eh, the re- the relation to language is that syntax gives you those kinds of, uh, options because you can, you know, you have, um, um, uh, past, present, future states that can be related to you and to others and so forth, and personal pronouns are very important in terms of, uh, me, I, mine, you, yours. That those, the, the point when those come in in a child is the first point when, I think, self-awareness can fully be tested and, and shown. Um-... and some people say, "Well they have it, but they just couldn't express it." Uh, others say no, that the arrival of the pronoun, personal pronouns are very important in the child's development of a sense of, of self. But anyway, so language changes, um, the brain, changes the cognitive architecture of the brain, and allows for something, just to throw out a technical term, hierarchical relational re- reasoning, which is the ability to think across kind of conceptual categories, um, laterally and horizontally, uh, so that information, you can just jump around and that's kind of what creativity is-

Joe Rogan 43:04 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 43:04 ... the ability to just jump around in mental space and come up with something by a unique combination of, of those things.

Joe Rogan 43:12 Do you, do you think that there's variation in terms of the, the types of languages, like Chinese versus Spanish versus ... that they l- allow you to interface with the world in a different way-

Joseph LeDoux 43:25 I-

Joe Rogan 43:25 ... because the language are structured very differently?

Joseph LeDoux 43:27 Yeah. I, I think that's absolutely right, but I don't know f- enough about other languages to say exactly how.

Joe Rogan 43:32 I thi- uh, I think it was Malcolm Gladwell, I think it was The Outlier-

Joseph LeDoux 43:35 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 43:35 ... so they discussed this-

Joseph LeDoux 43:36 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 43:36 ... like, the limitations of certain languages-

Joseph LeDoux 43:39 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 43:39 ... uh, in terms of, uh, pilots. Was that Gladwell? I think it was. Uh, where they were- they were, they were discussing how, uh, Korean airlines, because they have sort of a hierarchy-

Joseph LeDoux 43:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:50 ... of, uh, you know, the, the way you're supposed to treat the, uh, upper levels of management-

Joseph LeDoux 43:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:56 ... up and then that they had to force these pilots to all speak English so that they didn't have this hierarchy-

Joseph LeDoux 44:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:04 ... like, the, this presumed hierarchy-

Joseph LeDoux 44:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:06 ... of being able to address situations.

Joseph LeDoux 44:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:08 That planes had crashed because co-pilots were i- in their place, they were put in their place-

Joseph LeDoux 44:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:14 ... and they weren't allowed to address pilots. And that once they had switched over to English, that the language ... like, there's so many different versions of dealing with your boss-

Joseph LeDoux 44:23 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 44:24 ... or someone who's an upper level person, that there's so many different ways that you were supposed to address them and that they had eliminated all that by using English.

Joseph LeDoux 44:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:33 And it made me think, like, just using d- different styles of language, the way human beings communicate here is very different than the way people h- communicate say, um, you know, in some African countries-

Joseph LeDoux 44:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:45 ... that we have these d- different styles of interpreting the world around us, and those in turn have a profound effect on the way we sort of interface with the world.

Joseph LeDoux 44:55 Yeah, that, I think that's definitely right. So it's i- you know, it's int- interesting to think about emotion and language. So it's often said that an emotion like fear is universal across the world, but I don't think that's actually correct. What's universal is danger.

Joe Rogan 45:12 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 45:13 And the way fear is interpreted by different cultures is obviously different. I mean, different, uh, the Asians have a different kind of a, um, perspective on fear. Every culture has their own perspective on fear. So f- it's ... Fear is the, you know, the, the kind of cultural assembly that you have in your brain in response to danger. So every culture has to have a language of fear, but not because fear is universal, b- because danger is universal.

Joe Rogan 45:42 Mm-hmm. And what they interpret as danger is different.

Joseph LeDoux 45:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:49 And fear, for one person, something could, could create fear, whereas for another person, the exact same situation would not-

Joseph LeDoux 46:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:00 ... depending upon their personal experiences and maybe even their genetic makeup?

Joseph LeDoux 46:04 Well, yeah, I mean, g- you know genes contribute, so we, um ... Every part of our brain is under some kind of genetic influence, so every f- for example, the amygdala will be genetically kind of slightly more revved up in one person than another, so a little more sensitive to danger. And so that person might be responding more to danger in part because of genes, but also maybe because of experiences that they've had. Uh, and so then the conscious mind is seeing those responses and starting to conclude, "Oh, I'm an anxious, fearful person." And that ... all of that information gets collected in what's called a fear schema, which is a body of knowledge of everything you know about danger and including the way you rea- you react to danger and your, uh, just, you know, who you are in terms of danger. And so whenever w- you encounter danger, that schema is what's called pattern completed. So presence of a, a threat in the world is enough to go into your brain and activate those memories about danger that give you, uh, in a non-conscious representa- you know, an activation of this fear schema that is what then bubbles up into consciousness. That's your experience of fear, is what has been activated in your fear schema.

Joe Rogan 47:24 Knowing what you know and then watching whatever anxieties or fears may play out in your own mind-

Joseph LeDoux 47:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:31 ... is that, for lack of a better term, a mind fuck for you?

Joseph LeDoux 47:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:34 You know what I mean? You, you-

Joseph LeDoux 47:36 Well, I mean-

Joe Rogan 47:37 ... 'cause you've studied this so much-

Joseph LeDoux 47:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:38 ... but then you're human-

Joseph LeDoux 47:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:39 ... so I assume you have the same anxieties and fears.

Joseph LeDoux 47:41 I have a lot of anxieties. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:42 And we all do.

Joseph LeDoux 47:43 Yeah. And truthfully, it, it helps to some extent. So I used ... Uh, in 1996, I published a book called The Emotional Brain and a few years later, I, I started finding out from therapists that, um, the, uh ... Uh, a lot of patients were reading the book with their therapist, and they were saying that it was really helping them understand w- why ... you know, how different things were happening, that the, uh, the amygdala was causing them to react in certain situations. But their fear was their conscious understanding-... of those reactions, and those are not the same thing. And that separation helped them, you know, navigate their own situation in, in, in a situation of danger, separating out, "Okay, that's my... body is responding this way, my mind is responding this way, and these are two separate things I need to work on and control."

Joe Rogan 48:38 D- have you studied various ways that people mitigate anxiety and fear, like meditation and yoga, and all these different things that sort of change people's states?

Joseph LeDoux 48:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:48 Those-

Joseph LeDoux 48:48 I mean, I haven't, I, you know, haven't studied it myself, but, um, uh, I have researched it a bit. Uh, I've tr- I try to do meditation myself, because, uh, I think it's the... probably the most direct and effective way in the moment to... you know, I'm sitting in the room outside waiting for you, I just... had my hat and sunglasses on, just trying to chill out and meditate a little bit, get ready for you.

Joe Rogan 49:09 Mm-hmm. Do you do that on a regular basis?

Joseph LeDoux 49:12 Uh, you know, it's, it's hard to maintain it, 'cause, uh, life gets busy, and it seems like at the hardest time to do it is when you need it most, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:19 Yeah. I think it's one of those things like hygiene, where you just sort of have to say, "Well, it's hard to take a shower."

Joseph LeDoux 49:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:25 But you have to take a shower.

Joseph LeDoux 49:26 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:26 You don't stink.

Joseph LeDoux 49:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:27 You have to brush your teeth.

Joseph LeDoux 49:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:28 Or you'll get cavities.

Joseph LeDoux 49:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:30 You have to meditate.

Joseph LeDoux 49:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:30 You'll go crazy.

Joseph LeDoux 49:31 Yeah. It's perfect, that- that's the way it should be done.

Joe Rogan 49:34 I think that is what it... so, when you examine those kinda tools, like tools that people have sort of imagined or created to s- to sort of in some way alleviate anxiety or enhance perspective, do you, do you d- spend much time dwelling on the creation of those things and what's going on there?

Joseph LeDoux 49:53 Uh, what do you mean by the creation?

Joe Rogan 49:54 Well, the... like, a human had to figure out-

Joseph LeDoux 49:56 Oh, yeah, okay.

Joe Rogan 49:56 ... how to meditate. A per-

Joseph LeDoux 49:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:57 ... a person had to figure out these modalities-

Joseph LeDoux 49:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:00 ... these different ways to sort of interface with-

Joseph LeDoux 50:04 Yeah. So, le- let's take that from, uh... take that to the nature of most approaches to fear and anxiety today. Um, hold... just hold off the meditation part slightly.

Joe Rogan 50:22 Okay.

Joseph LeDoux 50:23 So we have, you know, psychopharmacology is a major line of attack, and also, um, what's called cognitive behavioral therapy, um, which is, um... arose as a form first called behavioral therapy, because it came out of the behaviorist movement which said there's no consciousness, you know, that, that the human is a stimulus response, uh, organism that is based on a history of reinforcement with certain kinds of situations. Um, so behavior therapy was about using Pavlovian or operant conditioning to change, um, how the brain would respond to threats and how people would act in those situations. Um, it wasn't about the mind at all. It was all about behavior. And then cognition was added to that, so that became cognitive behavioral therapy. But again, the, the cognitive change was used as a way of changing behavior, because so much emphasis has been placed on, uh, behavior in our culture, including in the drug therapy world. It's all based on changing measurable things like behavior and physiology. And that... I think that that's why all of these things in some sense have not worked out as well as we would like. You know, the best and, uh... the best medications and the best CBT trials will give you, like, 75% record of, of help in, in a group.

Joe Rogan 51:54 That's pretty great though, isn't it?

Joseph LeDoux 51:56 Yeah, but you still got 25 that's- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:58 But-

Joseph LeDoux 51:58 Uh, yeah, but you also have to extract out the placebo effect.

Joe Rogan 52:01 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 52:02 A- and in many of these, uh, uh, drug studies, for example, depressive... anti-depression drugs, the placebo pl- effect is, you know, only... s- the, the drug effect's only slightly better than the placebo effect.

Joe Rogan 52:14 But when you have cognitive behavioral therapy, there's... I mean, you're actually going for the placebo effect, right? I mean, you're trying to-

Joseph LeDoux 52:21 There's nothing wrong with placebo effect.

Joe Rogan 52:23 In that sense, though, you are trying to sort of... uh, you're, you're trying to use some sort of a strategy with your mind. In therapy, whether it's meditation-

Joseph LeDoux 52:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:32 ... or whatever you're doing, you're trying to enact change.

Joseph LeDoux 52:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:35 And if that change is enacted, there's not a pill involved.

Joseph LeDoux 52:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:38 So it is kind of like the same mechanism that's involved in a placebo effect.

Joseph LeDoux 52:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:43 Your, your mind is creating this, this-

Joseph LeDoux 52:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:46 ... new change-

Joseph LeDoux 52:47 Yes, and-

Joe Rogan 52:48 ... or benefits.

Joseph LeDoux 52:48 ... so... but the question is, a person that goes through the motions but doesn't get the therapy-

Joe Rogan 52:55 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 52:56 ... how much are they changed by s- simply by kind of going through it? Uh, you know, the-

Joe Rogan 53:00 Right. I, it... there's so many variations with humans, though. I'd like to find out, like, are they lazy? Uh-

Joseph LeDoux 53:04 T- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:04 ... are they self-destructive? Like, and why is that the case? Like, what-

Joseph LeDoux 53:08 Uh, you know, maybe all of the above, but-

Joe Rogan 53:09 All the above.

Joseph LeDoux 53:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:10 Yeah, well, the... whenever you have... I think 75% is amazing.

Joseph LeDoux 53:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:14 I mean, consider... if you have a group of people, what are the odds... if you have a group of 100 people, what are the odds that 25 of them are gonna be lazy?

Joseph LeDoux 53:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:22 Pretty good, right?

Joseph LeDoux 53:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:24 Pretty... I mean, I would bet a ton of money that 25% of those people don't do what they're supposed to do all the time.

Joseph LeDoux 53:32 Right. So, you know, you're right, but I think the, the issue is, from the scientific point of view, we need to know exactly what really works, what's different from placebo-

Joe Rogan 53:45 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 53:46 ... so that we can see what to build upon.

Joe Rogan 53:48 For medication.

Joseph LeDoux 53:49 For medication, for cognitive therapy as well.

Joe Rogan 53:52 But the therapy thing is so strange to me, because l- you... put... okay, maybe we're using the wrong word-

Joseph LeDoux 53:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:57 ... with placebo, because placebo is a word for a medication that has a psychosomatic effect, right?

Joseph LeDoux 54:04 Well, it's f- it's the control group that doesn't-

Joe Rogan 54:07 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 54:07 ... get the treatment.

Joe Rogan 54:08 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 54:08 So that you get that and-

Joe Rogan 54:09 That's not really doing anything physiologically, but your body is interpreting it as medicine and saying, "All right, change is coming."

Joseph LeDoux 54:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:16 And then the change comes.

Joseph LeDoux 54:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:17 And that is a real thing. But when you're thinking about cognitive behavioral therapy, you're thinking about using techniques and strategies to change the way you think and behave-... though, so the- the concept of the placebo effect doesn't really apply there. You have-

Joseph LeDoux 54:32 Well, you have to have a control group-

Joe Rogan 54:33 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 54:34 ... in this study. You have to have randomized control in order to make it-

Joe Rogan 54:37 So when you have cognitive behavioral therapy and you have randomized control and so you- you have a control group, do you just give them shitty therapy?

Joseph LeDoux 54:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:45 (laughs) Like, what do you t-

Joseph LeDoux 54:46 Ah, we- we need to get, uh, a therapist on here to give you the answer to that-

Joe Rogan 54:49 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 54:49 ... 'cause I don't know the answer.

Joe Rogan 54:50 Have you gone to therapy yourself?

Joseph LeDoux 54:51 I have, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:52 Did you ex- do that to examine this?

Joseph LeDoux 54:54 Um, I, you know, I- I mainly went into with- for the meditation, uh, part.

Joe Rogan 54:59 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 55:00 To try and, uh, calm some of my-

Joe Rogan 55:03 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 55:03 ... restlessness.

Joe Rogan 55:05 Has writing and all this study that you had to do to write these books, has that enhanced you? I mean, do- that- you have much more of an understanding about what's at play than the average person does.

Joseph LeDoux 55:18 Well, you know, a- again, it's- it's kinda like the patient who's reading The Emotional Brain with the- with their therapist. I think by writing those books, I learn a lot, and it helps me see things, and that doesn't necessarily help me lead my life any better.

Joe Rogan 55:36 Hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 55:36 Um, but it- I- I think I understand it, uh, better.

Joe Rogan 55:39 But no self, no fear.

Joseph LeDoux 55:40 Yeah. Well, no self, no fear means that you have to be- you have to have this autonoetic consciousness ability in order to be afraid, and that is a- a special human quality, the ability to put yourself in the moment, in your past and in your future. Um, if it's not you that's gonna be harmed by that snake, then you don't have to worry about what it's gonna do to you. So if you are a part of it, then you worry and it becomes, you know, it's an emotion when- when you're involved. So I think emotions, this is a crazy idea that's in the book, that emotions didn't arise through natural selection.

Joe Rogan 56:22 Really?

Joseph LeDoux 56:22 Well, that- that's the idea, that they, um, were byproducts of other capacities that came along. First you had some kind of crude language. That enabled this hierarchical and relational reason to jump across, you know, language gave you categories to, like, conceptualize things. Hierarchical r- reasoning allowed you to jump across those categories. Um, and those kinds of things allow you to conceptualize yourself as an entity with an experience. So y- you had to have a self that could do that kind of reasoning and, um, uh, across those conceptual categories, and that is what enabled an emotion, the ability to put yourself into a significant situation.

Joe Rogan 57:12 S-

Joseph LeDoux 57:12 So now that it's here, now that we have ... Once emotions are there, then they become selected. But they weren't selected by, for example, the amygdala having evolved to be the fear center, and we inherited that from animals. You know, animals probably have some kinds of experiences b- b- but it's scientifically, it's very hard to know what they have.

Joe Rogan 57:31 Well, we know, like, dogs have emotions, right? Dogs get sad.

Joseph LeDoux 57:34 Well, I wouldn't say that.

Joe Rogan 57:35 Dogs get happy.

Joseph LeDoux 57:36 Well, you s- you see their behavior.

Joe Rogan 57:38 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 57:38 But I'm not saying they aren't. But scientifically, you can't measure that.

Joe Rogan 57:43 Right. But if you have a dog and you come home and he's so excited to see you and he's running around in circles, that seems very emotional-

Joseph LeDoux 57:49 Well-

Joe Rogan 57:49 ... or akin, right?

Joseph LeDoux 57:51 Yeah. But I don't ... So let's talk about the brain for a second.

Joe Rogan 57:54 Okay.

Joseph LeDoux 57:55 So the parts of the brain, circuits in the brain, that, um, are involved in this kind of autonoetic emotion that I'm talking about, this self-involved emotion that's so human, uh, such a human quality, um ... The- I- w- the part of the brain that I think is important, and this is still a hypothesis, it's not a fact, uh, is something called the frontal pole. It's the very, very front part of the prefrontal cortex. That region ha- is unique to the human brain. No other, not even another ape, has that. Now, other parts of the prefrontal cortex are present in other primates, all other primates, but not in any other mammal. So if we can figure out in the human brain what that frontal pole does and what that other part that all primates have do, then that gives us an anchor for speculating about what other primates, what kinds of experience other primates have, given what those parts of the brain enable in us. And that would allow us to then extract what other mammals don't have that we have, because they don't have those parts of the brain. So it's a- it's a kind of, you know, use of the brain to- to tell us some things about what might exist in other animals. But there's no way to ask a dog, "What's on your mind?"

Joe Rogan 59:24 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 59:25 Um-

Joe Rogan 59:26 Could we measure the brain with an fMRI or something along those lines where you get a reading of-

Joseph LeDoux 59:30 But that's not a- an answer. I mean, it-

Joe Rogan 59:32 No?

Joseph LeDoux 59:32 ... it's correlate.

Joe Rogan 59:33 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 59:34 So a human, like, I can, you know ... If you ask me, uh, "Is there a pen here on the table?" I say, "Yes." I can respond verbally or I can point to it. Um, but, um, when I'm responding verbally, I can only do that for something I'm conscious of. I can't respond to something I'm unconscious of by naming it. Follow that?

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 Hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:00:06 Other animals can only respond non-verbally. So they don't have that other kind of response that is only reflecting a conscious state. So I'm not saying they don't have anything, but scientifically it's very hard to- to know what they have. And the fact that we can study, uh, we know in, for example, fear, that the fear itself probably doesn't depend on the amygdala.... but the, all the behavior that we see does makes us p- have to be cautious about observing behaviors that look like they're based on fear, love, and all these other emotions, when we can't really know, because we can't measure that.

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 Oof.

Joseph LeDoux 1:00:48 Uh, I mean, it's a tough problem. Again, I'm not saying it's not there.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 (laughs) .

Joseph LeDoux 1:00:51 It's just like-

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Right, I get it.

Joseph LeDoux 1:00:52 ... scientifically, you know, you have to s-

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 You have to be stringent.

Joseph LeDoux 1:00:55 ... what's the evidence? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 Yes, yeah you have to... Now, now measuring it in humans is, I mean, there's this concept of people, "I'm an emotional person."

Joseph LeDoux 1:01:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 You know, "I'm emotional." Like pe- "I get emotional." Like, people love to say-

Joseph LeDoux 1:01:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 ... those, those kinda-

Joseph LeDoux 1:01:09 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 ... things.

Joseph LeDoux 1:01:09 I d-

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 What, a- are... Is it possible to measure varying degrees of emotional response in terms of, like, how it's affecting a person physiologically, whether or not these emotional responses are physiological or whether you've gone down a well-grooved psychological path that you've been d- sort of participating in your whole life so that-

Joseph LeDoux 1:01:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 ... you have these o- sort of triggers? This happens and then, "Oop, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start crying." This happens, "Oop, I'm gonna get angry." And people sort of fall into those paths without self-reflection, without this ability to be objective and introspective and go, "Why am I reacting this way?"

Joseph LeDoux 1:01:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 Like, what... "Maybe you should stop being so emotional, Joe." Right? Is it, anybody ever said that to you?

Joseph LeDoux 1:01:57 (laughs) . Uh, p- I guess my wife has said.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 I'm sure. I'm sure.

Joseph LeDoux 1:02:00 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Well, what does that mean?

Joseph LeDoux 1:02:01 Yup.

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 Like, what, w- you know what I mean?

Joseph LeDoux 1:02:03 S-

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 Like, the, this, th- the varying degrees of emotional-

Joseph LeDoux 1:02:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 ... response and whether or not those are beneficial or whether or not they just detract from your experience.

Joseph LeDoux 1:02:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 Or inhibit your, your ability to be productive.

Joseph LeDoux 1:02:16 So, you know, I've... You really nailed a lot of interesting stuff in there, and I, um, you know, it's very kinda deep analysis of w- of what's going on. So the problem is that our language is so bad that, um, all these terms that we have, we borrow from what's called folk wisdom or folk psychology, you know, they've, they've come through the ages. And y- this is true in every aspect of science, that you have folk terms, you know, folk physics becomes real physics and then the folk stuff goes away. Folk biology becomes real biology and then, you know, the folk stuff goes away. But in psychology, the folk stuff never goes away because we always experience the folk aspect of it when we have a conscious experience. That's what our conscious minds is our folk psychology of ourselves and of others and of other animals. But the, um, um... Underneath that is the part that we can get rid of the folk psychology of because we can understand how behavior is controlled, how these physiological responses are controlled, and it ain't because, you know, we've had fear is causing it, you know, but b- ca- when you're afraid, you're almost always running from the bear and feeling fear, but... And, and so you assume that when you're running from the bear, fear is what causes you to run. But fear is not the answer. Fear is your awareness that all that shit is happening to you.

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 Hmm. But also, the, the ability to contemplate the consequences, right?

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:02 Yeah, yeah. That's-

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Like, "This bear's gonna get me and he's gonna eat me!"

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Enhances the fear.

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:05 So it's all, it's all, you know, one interpretation after another running forward.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 But no self, no fear, that's n- not possible either, right?

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:17 W- w- well, if that... I mean, you need the self to be afraid.

Joe Rogan 1:04:19 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:20 So, I mean, that's y- and to be consciously afraid, but you can react to danger without the self, and that's what, you know, that's key. You, you f- find yourself freezing or you're walking in New York City and you jump back and the bus goes flying by, so you've reacted to danger, but only afterwards do you feel fear, when you cognitively become aware that that's happened.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 Well, in that sort of a situation. But in a situation like where you're walking down a dark alley and then you see some guy who seems to be following you.

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 And you're like, "Oh, boy."

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:49 Yup. So now you're, you're in a situation where you're in a potentially dangerous situation.

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:55 So now you're anxious about what's gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 1:04:58 So you're not starting with fear, you're starting with anxiety, worry about what's gonna happen. Nothing... There's nothing there that's made you-

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 But then what if he ramps it up?

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:05 T- yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 Says, "Hey, Joe?"

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 "Why don't you come over here, man?"

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 "I'd like to borrow some money from you."

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 And you're like, "Oh, shit."

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:12 So-

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 Now it's fear? Is that fear?

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:13 Y- now you've got a, a specific threat and-

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:15 ... yeah, so you, now you're into fear and then that's gonna morph into another anxiety about, "What the hell is this guy gonna do to me?"

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:22 So, but all of that... You know, the, the, the n- dark alleyway is gonna go into your brain and trigger your muscle tension, your heart to race and so forth, and the dark alley's gonna go to your cortex and you're gonna be interpreting the fact that you're in a dark alley and your heart is racing in terms of being anxious and fearful and all of that. But they're happening separately. It's not one bundle.

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 Hm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:05:46 It's like, separate things in the brain. And once we understand that, it becomes, I think, a much easier problem, how to approach problems of fear and anxiety. You've gotta separately treat the behavior and the physiology from the conscious thoughts. And in between those two, you also gotta change the cognitions that underlie, uh, the, the conscious experience, but also the cognitions can trigger behavior. So, you know, one of the things we've, uh, we've proposed, uh, I, I propose this in my last book, uh, Anxious, was a kind of test program for exploring this where it, uh, would be kind of a three-part, uh, three-step program. Um, first you would, um, you'd have to do it with something simple like a spider phobia.

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 ... a what?

Joseph LeDoux 1:06:34 ... spider phobic or snake phobic.

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 Oh, okay.

Joseph LeDoux 1:06:36 So you would do exposure therapy subliminally. That means you'd-

Joe Rogan 1:06:40 Subliminally?

Joseph LeDoux 1:06:41 ... present the picture of a snake or the spider so fast that the conscious mind doesn't know it's there.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 So like those old, uh, hungry eat popcorn things-

Joseph LeDoux 1:06:50 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 ... they used to have in the movies? Okay.

Joseph LeDoux 1:06:51 Yeah. And that's a very common technique in psychology too.

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 So they would show you a film and there'd be, uh, one or two frames of a spider if you had arachnophobia.

Joseph LeDoux 1:06:57 Or just a picture, you know, or, but could be a film, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 Okay.

Joseph LeDoux 1:07:01 And, uh, e- but it would have to go very fast in the film, so they would... i- so with a picture, you'd just present it re- really quickly and, um... 'cause, you know, normally if you show a spider phobic, uh, try to do exposure therapy, they don't wanna do it, because they don't wanna deal with spiders.

Joe Rogan 1:07:18 Mm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:07:19 But they, they, their conscious mind doesn't know it's happening because it's going through subliminally. So the amygdala is being tamed by the exposure and now they can look at the picture without, you know, the body re- reacting. They're not jumping, they're not, uh, their heart isn't racing because the amygdala has been turned off so all of those body responses have- have calmed down. So now the person can kinda go some... undergo some cognitive change about looking at spiders and so forth and then finally, once you've done those two steps, the brain's ready for talk therapy and meditation and other kinds of mindfulness approaches, uh, because all of the- the impediments to all that have been put aside by the- these first two steps.

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 So has anybody ever, like, officially cured someone of arachnophobia or ophidi- ophi- ophidiophobia, or, you know, fear of snakes or spiders? Like those are... those seem to be almost like deep-seated genetic fears.

Joseph LeDoux 1:08:18 Well, the- we... I mean, our ancestors, yes, had, uh, snake and-

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 But they vary.

Joseph LeDoux 1:08:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:24 Which is what's weird. The- the- our ancestors certainly experienced v- venomous snakes and-

Joseph LeDoux 1:08:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 But there's something about some people have a v- almost illogical reaction to it-

Joseph LeDoux 1:08:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:35 ... that it's often been speculated that this is some sort of a genetic memory of someone perhaps in their ancestry line surviving a snake attack or losing someone to a snake.

Joseph LeDoux 1:08:45 Mm. It's more... you know, it turns out that the, um... it's more about the ability to rapidly learn about those kinds of dangers than to innately respond.

Joe Rogan 1:08:57 Mm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:08:57 So there seems to be... it's called prepared learning. So you have an evolutionarily based thing that's with you that everyone has some version of, but, you know, varies from individual to individual. And then some people (clears throat) , um, are prone to rapidly learn that, either because of other experiences or because of their part- particular genetic makeup and so they tend to go down the road of- of acquiring these kinds of phobias. Now... so it's... the p- problem with treating that by just extinguishing it, uh, through exposure is that the, um, uh, extinction is always impermanent. You know, if you... once you've been reduced, nothing is wrong. This is true in a rat or a person. Let's say the rat has been sh- given a tone that's been paired with a shock and then it hears the tone 20 or 30 times, stops responding, but then if it goes back in the- the room or the chamber where the shock had occurred, the tone will again bring it... you know, elicit it, and the spider phobic returns to the place where he or she was bitten by a spider or a place where spiders are supposed to be present, it can come back. So these are imperfect temporary solutions. They're not enough, um, and, uh, that's why... I mean, they're called, uh... these are called, you know, reinstatement and, um, uh, things like that because they- they pop back up. So maybe medications can help tamp that down a bit. So, um, medications are useful in- in that sense of being able to control the behavior and the physiology, but less so in terms of changing the mental state because... you know, how could you possibly design a medication that would know how to change the content of a- a mental state? I mean, that seems like an impossible task.

Joe Rogan 1:10:50 Mm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:10:50 And that's what you wanna do. You don't wanna change all mental states.

Joe Rogan 1:10:53 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 1:10:53 You wanna change the one content, you know? "I'm afraid of spiders."

Joe Rogan 1:10:58 Yeah. Uh (sighs) ... it's- it's- it's so fascinating though how people vary so widely in their- their reaction to certain fears or to certain things that could induce fear, whether it's dogs or, you know, whatever irrational thing that people have-

Joseph LeDoux 1:11:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:17 ... the- the source of that is r- really often speculated that there's like some sort of a genetic component to it. Do you buy into that?

Joseph LeDoux 1:11:27 So let's say... let's say, um, that, you know, in any kind of situation like that, there are multiple systems in the brain that are gonna be involved.

Joe Rogan 1:11:36 Mm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:11:36 We're gonna isolate the amygdala as, you know, hypothetical part of that system that is detecting and responding to the stimulus. So we're gonna go into the amygdala and focus on one little part of it, uh, called the lateral nucleus. That doesn't matter, but it's the part that gets the input from the outside world. So that is the gateway into the amygdala. So now let's talk about... let's say it's got... I don't know, 100,000 cells and neurons, um, and, um, each of those neurons is gonna have a bell curve that's based on the genes that made that cell and whatever kinds of electrical signals it's had throughout the life of the organism. So you're gonna have 100,000 bell curves of, you know, various degrees that when the stimulus comes in, those cells that- that are activated, their little bell curves are gonna determine how much they respond to that.And that's gonna propagate to other cells that have their own bell curves in areas and so on down the line. That what happens at the level of behavior is a very complicated, uh, kind of summation of all those bell curves, of all those cells that happen to be activated. So it's not like, you know, one thing is programmed. It's not like a brain area is programmed. It's all about what's happened at those specific cells, both through genetics and experience. So we often kind of oversimplify things by thinking, "Well, there's a- a gene or a- an area that has, um, inherited that thing."

Joe Rogan 1:13:19 When you think of human beings and you think of what we used to be when we were some sort of a lower hominid and now what we are now, and you think of all these various components that are at play, do you- do you ever try to imagine what a human of 1,000 years or 10,000 or 100,000 years from now will be like?

Joseph LeDoux 1:13:39 Oh, they're- they're gonna be different. You know, the- we're not, uh... Every organism is in constant change, you know, the racial mixing, uh, interbreeding happens, um, and so-

Joe Rogan 1:13:54 Random mutations.

Joseph LeDoux 1:13:55 Random mutations.

Joe Rogan 1:13:56 Natural selection.

Joseph LeDoux 1:13:56 Uh, we, we're living longer and so, you know, that's creating, um... People are having babies later, that will change a lot of stuff. So we're gonna be a different, uh, thing. At some point, we may split out into a whole new kind of, uh, human.

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 The- the- the thing about people having babies older, I mean, there's certainly physical limitations, uh, when people start having babies older. But on the plus side, you're dealing with someone that has a lot more life experience that's raising a child.

Joseph LeDoux 1:14:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:27 You know, versus, uh... You know, my mom had me when she was 20, 21. You know, wh- what do you... What the fuck do you know when you're 21? (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 1:14:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14:34 You don't- you don't know much, but if you're a woman who has a child-

Joseph LeDoux 1:14:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:37 ... when you're 40, well, hey, that's a- a rich life-

Joseph LeDoux 1:14:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:14:40 ... with a lot of experiences and maybe you can impart some of that wisdom to your child.

Joseph LeDoux 1:14:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:44 And look at things in a different way and maybe that in turn will raise a child that's more balanced.

Joseph LeDoux 1:14:49 Right. You know, I- I'm talking out of my area here, but I- I think that, um, probably, you know, the eggs sit around for a long time and I don't know what the effect of aging on the egg is.

Joe Rogan 1:15:06 Hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:06 Uh, I just don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:15:08 Well, there's also a big factor with the male sperm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:10 And male sperm, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:15:10 And they're thinking that's one of the main contributors to autism-

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:15:13 ... is older men.

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:13 And schizophrenia supposedly, uh, uh, I've heard, um, uh, that, you know, older fathers are more likely to-

Joe Rogan 1:15:20 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:21 ... have, uh, male sons that are schizophrenic.

Joe Rogan 1:15:24 Yeah, that makes sense. It all makes sense.

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:25 I don't- I wouldn't say that is a fact, but I- I've heard that.

Joe Rogan 1:15:27 Well, it all makes sense that there'd be some-

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:29 ... glitches in the matrix, so it's-

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:31 Yeah, I mean, we're not, you know, we're not supposed to live that long. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:15:34 No. Are we not? But what- what are your thoughts on people that are trying to live longer and- and trying to sort of, uh, squeeze out as much time as they can-

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:42 ... on this rock?

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:43 I don't know. It's like, I see a lot of old people that just don't want to live anymore and I understand that. Y- you know, your body starts falling apart, your mind is going, "What's the point at that point?"

Joe Rogan 1:15:55 Yeah, I get that.

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:55 To me-

Joe Rogan 1:15:55 But what about the people that can keep it together?

Joseph LeDoux 1:15:57 Yeah. Yeah, I guess if you keep it together you wanna, like, you know, okay, let's- let's go as far as we can. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:16:03 (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:04 Let's go to the moon and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:16:05 Right.

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:05 ... go to Mars.

Joe Rogan 1:16:06 Well, pharmacological solutions to... I mean, if we- if there was some sort of a genetic component that they identified-

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:13 ... to aging and they gave the option to reverse the process, would you participate? Or do you like it? Do you like the finite nature of this existence?

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:24 Uh, I do. I- I think so. It's like-

Joe Rogan 1:16:28 I knew you were gonna answer that. (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:31 (laughs) You- you know, I think, uh, I don't l- I'm- I'm not... I take certain medications, but, uh, rather just live as m- most of my life as possible without them.

Joe Rogan 1:16:42 Hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:43 So...

Joe Rogan 1:16:43 What medications do you take?

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:45 Uh, you know, blood pressure and mainly blood pressure stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:16:48 Yeah? Do you exercise?

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:50 Uh, not enough, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:16:52 That's, uh, got- got a big effect on anxiety and a big effect on just-

Joseph LeDoux 1:16:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:16:56 ... a general, uh, alleviation of angst.

Joseph LeDoux 1:17:00 That's a good example of something I know I should do-

Joe Rogan 1:17:02 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 1:17:02 ... and yet... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:04 Is that a discipline issue?

Joseph LeDoux 1:17:06 Uh, I used to be kind of disciplined but...

Joe Rogan 1:17:08 What happened?

Joseph LeDoux 1:17:10 I've been using it a lot to, uh, you know, to do things like, uh, I- I really want to do, like writing or making music and so, uh, those are the- the things that kind of... I know I should, like, do the exercise too so I can do more of that longer. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:27 Yeah, do you think that you have a finite amount of discipline?

Joseph LeDoux 1:17:30 Uh, possibly each person has a, uh, you know, the fin- has that sort of, uh, anxiety quotient, that discipline quotient, uh, that we kind of... Uh, you probably can work that like a muscle and build it.

Joe Rogan 1:17:44 Yeah, I would imagine you can.

Joseph LeDoux 1:17:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:45 Yeah. You could become something different.

Joseph LeDoux 1:17:48 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:17:48 My- me and my friends did this thing that we did, uh, last year, uh, called Sober October, where the entire month, you know, no alcohol, no marijuana, no drugs, and crazy exercise. Like, last year, we had a competition to see, like, who could exercise the most. We wore these heart rate monitors and we- we measured points, like, uh, you get a certain amount of points at 80% of your max heart rate per minute. What- my point is, one of the things that I g- got out of this and w- we all got out of it, we all talked about it 'cause we were exercising hours and hours a day, an incredible alleviation of anxiety.

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:18:20 Incredible.

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:18:21 Like, to the point where I- I exercise regularly, but I don't exercise at that level.

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:18:26 That- that level that we were doing 'cause we were in this competition was really a lot of cardio.

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:18:32 But my God, that runner's high is real.

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:34 I felt amazing. I mean, I felt, like, so good all the time. The alleviation of angst was unlike anything. The internal chatter-

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:43 ... that sort of can fuck with your head.

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:45 That- that just didn't exist anymore.

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:47 Well, I think that- that's wonderful that you're saying that because you have so many followers and I think that's such fantastic information to convey to them.

Joe Rogan 1:18:55 It is, and it's so available to all of us.

Joseph LeDoux 1:18:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:18:58 I mean, anybody that can move their body can experience this. And I- I don't-... recommend what we did-

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:19:03 ... because we were working out five hours, six hours a day, it was-

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:05 But even, you know, I walk, I live in New York, so I walk a lot. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:19:08 That's great.

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:09 Right?

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:10 You have to. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:19:11 Yes, but I mean, just that alone-

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:13 ... is, it's... There's many people that don't walk. You know? You just sit here and then you move to that spot-

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:19:19 ... you sit there and you get in the car and you sit there.

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:21 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:19:22 You get on the train, you sit there, and there's n- very little use of the body and the body starts to atrophy.

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:27 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:19:27 By pumping that blood through the system and cleaning out the pipes and getting that air into the lungs and forcing yourself to move, when it's over, you feel better.

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:36 I'm breathing better already. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:19:38 I should feel it, right? I'm, I'm, I'm imagining it. I'm imagining this exercise. Um, what do you take... What about nature? Do you, do you take any time in nature at all? Do you go to Central Park?

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:48 Oh, well, we have a house up in Sullivan County in the Catskills.

Joe Rogan 1:19:50 Oh, that's nice.

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:52 How often do you get a chance to get out there?

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:53 Uh, we spend a lot of time there in the summer.

Joe Rogan 1:19:55 Oh, that's great.

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:56 And, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:19:57 Do you feel better when you're up there?

Joseph LeDoux 1:19:58 Yeah, definitely.

Joe Rogan 1:19:59 Interesting, right?

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:00 Yeah. It takes a couple of days to like, you know, get into the rhythm.

Joe Rogan 1:20:03 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:04 But then it's good.

Joe Rogan 1:20:05 But once you do, do you ever think, "Man, what the fuck am I doing living in Manhattan with all these buildings and cars?"

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:11 Uh, yeah. Uh, you know, my wife and I, she, my wife's a New Yorker, so, by birth, so, um, a, a week there and we need, we need to go in and- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:20:20 (laughs)

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:20 ... then we wanna come back and-

Joe Rogan 1:20:21 My friend Jeff has a, uh, a place on Fire Island.

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:20:24 And he-

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:25 It's a beautiful place.

Joe Rogan 1:20:25 Be- beautiful. And he lives in Manhattan as well, but he says like, as he's gotten older-

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:29 Oh, we're in Brooklyn, but, uh...

Joe Rogan 1:20:30 Oh, you're in Brooklyn.

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:31 He says as he's gotten older, he really don't, doesn't think that he could live in Manhattan anymore if it wasn't for this ability to escape.

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:20:39 And go somewhere and just (sighs) wake up in the morning, look out, see the ocean, have a cup of coffee.

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:46 (sighs)

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:46 Moving to Brooklyn was kinda like that, getting out of Manhattan.

Joe Rogan 1:20:49 Yeah?

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:49 You know, and, um, that... If you don't live in New York, that may not make a lot of sense to you, but-

Joe Rogan 1:20:53 Explain to people what the difference is.

Joseph LeDoux 1:20:54 So, you know, you... Manhattan is just like this, it's super charged all the time. And it's not a, it's not a trite thing. It's y- you know, you, it's, it's a true thing that you, once you get out of Manhattan, everything is just a l- a notch down.

Joe Rogan 1:21:09 Yeah.

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:10 And, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:21:11 A hive.

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:11 ... ste- step off the subway and you kinda feel a little bit more relaxed.

Joe Rogan 1:21:16 Do you think that's 'cause Brooklyn... I mean, uh, this is just speculative, but there's still a lot of people in Brooklyn.

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:21 But there's no skyscrapers.

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:22 Few. I mean, there, there's starting to be lots of tall buildings and stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:21:26 Oh, yeah?

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:26 But, uh...

Joe Rogan 1:21:26 What's like a tall building in Brooklyn?

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:27 Like 30.

Joe Rogan 1:21:29 30? Right, not-

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:29 Residences, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:21:30 What's Manhattan, like 80s?

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:32 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:32 There's like 80s and 90s.

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:33 Yeah, right.

Joe Rogan 1:21:34 And there's some giant buildings.

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:35 I, I looked out the other day, uh, I guess from the airplane, and there's something in North Manhattan that looks like it's way above the Empire State Building-

Joe Rogan 1:21:47 Yeah?

Joseph LeDoux 1:21:47 ... in terms of size. I, I don't know what that is, but... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:21:50 (laughs) But, uh, have you thought about that existence, like, um, in terms of like how unnatural it is and how recent it is, this ability to jam untold millions-

Joseph LeDoux 1:22:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:02 ... How many people are in Manhattan?

Joseph LeDoux 1:22:03 Oh, boy, you know, I have no idea. Like, I think eight million or something in New York City, but probably like four million or something.

Joe Rogan 1:22:09 And then of course commuters as well.

Joseph LeDoux 1:22:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:11 So eight million plus all the people that f- come in from different places to work there.

Joseph LeDoux 1:22:15 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:22:15 And just stuffed into an incredibly small area and stacked on top of each other.

Joseph LeDoux 1:22:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:21 That has gotta be a completely new psychological state for the human animal.

Joseph LeDoux 1:22:26 Right. Yeah, there's just... I remember when I first got into, um, psychology, I was reading something about something called a behavioral sync. Um, it was about how rats living in an impoverished environment under highly crowded conditions, their behavioral repertoire sort of like diminished a lot.

Joe Rogan 1:22:49 Mm-hmm.

Joseph LeDoux 1:22:49 So I think that was, you know, sort of used to kind of challenge urban living and to blame a lot of urban decay in the '70s, uh, on, um... I don't think it was necessarily a good idea, but, uh, it, it was kind of a, a way to explain some things that I think it wasn't really good at explaining. You know, it's true that, that people do live under fairly crowded conditions, but, um, that's... y- you can't explain everything in terms of very simple processes.

Joe Rogan 1:23:21 Are you aware of the studies that they did where they set cameras up on streets and they, they set them distance apart and they measured footsteps, how fast people