Joe Rogan Experience #1347 - Neil deGrasse Tyson

1. 0:04 – 4:10

   Van Gogh’s Starry Night: art as emotion, not realism

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      Hello.

   2. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:05

      Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      What's going on, man?

   4. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:07

      Man.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Good to see you.

   6. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:08

      Thanks, thanks. I feel a little overdressed, sorry about this.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      You look good.

   8. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:11

      You know...

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Oh, look at that.

   10. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:12

       A little bit of Starry Night there.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:14

       Yeah, you're really into that, huh?

   12. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:15

       Uh, yeah, I got, I got-

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:16

       That's, is that-

   14. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:17

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:17

       That's what's on your phone as well.

   16. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:18

       So you remembered, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       Yes.

   18. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:19

       Uh, yeah. Yeah, it's on the phone.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       (laughs)

   20. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:22

       Starry Night, I, what, you know what I like about Starry Night? It's not what Van Gogh saw that night, it's what he felt.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       How do you know what he felt?

   22. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:32

       Because this is not an a- a representation of reality.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       Oh, okay.

   24. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:36

       And anything that deviates from reality is reality that has filtered through your senses. And I think art at its highest is exactly that. If this was an exact depiction of reality, it would be a photograph and I don't need the artist.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       Hmm. Okay.

   26. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson0:51

       So, even photographs that take you to a slightly other kinda dimension as you gaze upon them, it's more than what was actually going on at the time, and that's, that's art taken to the craft of photography.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       That's why you like it?

   28. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:06

       That's, uh, it's one of the reasons why. Plus I think it was the very first painting where its title is the background. Think about that. This coulda been called, uh, you know, in, in the full painting obviously, this is a, a, a snippet.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       A town.

   30. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:23

       Yeah, yeah. So there's a town there, there's a cypress tree, there's a church steeple. It coulda been called Cypress Tree. It coulda been called Sleepy Village. It could've been called Rolling Hills. But no, it's called Starry Night, and everything in front of it-
2. 4:10 – 7:21

   How artists “beatify” the mundane (Paul Revere, poems, trees)

   1. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson4:10

      And, and you know what I think about often? Um, why do you, why do we all know who Paul Revere is? Right? We all, we, we... It's a household name, yet is there any other war ever fought in the history of the world where a household name is the name of the person who told other people the enemy was coming? We, we can mention his name but we can't list the generals that all fought in that war. Why? It's because a poem was written about him, and he had this mundane job, "Let me tell people the enemy is coming." And so the artist, in this case the poet, elevated the mundane to something that forces you to, to reckon it with your understanding of this world. What's Joyce, uh, uh, Joyce Kilmer's most famous poem? It's about a tree. Dogs piss on trees. You drive by trees, you don't even know they're there, yet a poem about a tree, "I'll never see something as lovely as a tree." Oh my gosh. This... So the art forces you to pause and just reflect on things that you took for granted, things that became ordinary in real life, and they were elevated to, to, to... They get beatified by the talents of artists.

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:30

      That's a word?

   3. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson5:31

      Oh, beatify? You never heard of it?

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:32

      No. That's a good one.

   5. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson5:33

      Beatify, uh, yeah, I'm using it l- loosely, it's the intermediate step between being an ordinary person and being a saint.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:40

      Oh.

   7. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson5:40

      The beatification of someone in the Catholic Church.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:43

      I would've thought it's making something more beautiful, beatifying something.

   9. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson5:45

      Uh, oh may- okay, I don't, it could have similar roots-

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:49

       Uh, maybe, I was just guessing.

   11. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson5:50

       ... be ad, b- b-ut- yeah, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:50

       Yeah.

   13. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson5:51

       It could, it could come from that, but the-... to be, be beatified is the first step on route to sainthood.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:57

       Oh.

   15. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson5:57

       Yeah. That's if I remember the word correctly.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:00

       Here it goes.

   17. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson6:00

       Oh, you got it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:01

       Jenny pulled it up. The definition; to make supremely happy, Christianity declare to have attained blessedness of heaven and authorize the title Blessed, and limited public religious honor. She was beatified six years after her death.

   19. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson6:14

       Yeah. So, I think you can't become a saint unless you've previously been beatified.

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:19

       Mm.

   21. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson6:19

       I think that's the rule. But I'm looking at the number one definition there, "To make supremely happy." So-

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:25

       That's interesting.

   23. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson6:26

       ... that's, that's interesting. Yeah. That, that-

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:27

       Yeah.

   25. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson6:27

       ... that moved ahead of it.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:28

       Definition of beatify. Hmm.

   27. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson6:29

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       It's a weird word.

   29. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson6:31

       So, so to beatify... wait, wait, the verb was up there, uh, you had on the screen. Roman Catholic Church, uh, he beatified Juan Diego, an Indian believed to have a vision of a Virgin Mary. Uh, synonyms: canonize, sanctify, hallow, consecrate. So, I think if you take something ordinary and you subject it to the interpretation of an artist, it, it can be beatified and elevated on a level where it becomes a household recognition of its importance in this world.

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:57

       Hmm. Okay.
3. 7:21 – 9:07

   STEM vs STEAM—and why science literacy powers civilization

   1. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson7:21

      And of course, the, the whole STEAM movement, science, technology, engineering and math, uh, the artists got in there and said, "Wait, I'm still STEM." The STEM movement-

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:29

      Yeah.

   3. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson7:30

      ... Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math, they wanted to throw in the A to get art as part of that movement. Science, Technology, Engineering, Art, and Math.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:36

      Change it from STEM to STEAM.

   5. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson7:37

      To STEAM, so you get full steam ahead. STEAM is a better word in that. Well, they're both good words for what they need, but, uh-

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:43

      That just sounds like a bunch of awesome stuff. Like-

   7. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson7:46

      It does. And, and, yeah-

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:47

      ... why not throw in comedy and building houses?

   9. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson7:50

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       You know, it seems like you're getting very... It's like the LBGTQAI.

   11. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson7:56

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:56

       Like, things get really squirrelly when you start adding more letters.

   13. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson7:59

       Yeah. You can add letters, but if it doesn't spell anything, then the memorization has to kick in.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:02

       Right.

   15. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson8:02

       But STEAM, you don't have to memorize that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:04

       Right.

   17. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson8:04

       It's already there for you.

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:05

       Right.

   19. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson8:06

       Yeah. So it's cleverly conceived. I think it, the abbreviation was, it, it's tacit recognition that these are elements in society that advance civilization and, and grow the economy, actually. So, in fact, there's hardly any growth economy in the world that isn't growing because it hasn't been t- th- for... Not having been touched by science or technology. Everything. Just think about it. So, if you're around running... Uh, you don't have them on your show. But if you're running around saying, "I don't like science. Science is bad. Science is evil," okay, well, then you will die in poverty if you elect officials who believe that as well.

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:45

       Who the fuck thinks that science is bad in 2019? And how do they express this? Do they express it through science?

   21. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson8:52

       Okay. So-

   22. JRJoe Rogan8:53

       You know what I'm saying? Like, are they saying it online?

   23. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson8:55

       I have a book coming out in a month called Letters from an Astrophysicist, okay? Yeah. (laughs) But it's, it's not, it's, it's not out yet.

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:02

       But I've got it.

   25. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson9:03

       It's not... How did you get a copy? (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:05

       But I got it.

   27. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson9:05

       I don't even have my copy yet.

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:07

       But I got it.

4. 9:07 – 15:04

   Science denial and cherry-picking: climate, vaccines, GMOs

   1. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson9:07

      Okay? Uh, uh, what I'm saying... In there, I, there's a whole chapter on just angry people who don't like anything, including science. And one of them, it's a, it's a, it's a riff. He just says, "I hate this. And science is, and science brings some of the worst things that's ever happened to humanity, and pollution," and this. He goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on. And so, I reply, it's Letters from an Astrophysicist, and I, and I reply as, as calmly and as rationally as is possible when you, you get attacked that way. But what I'm saying is, um, not everyone embraces everything that science does. And some will cherry-pick it. You have the science deniers for global warming, you have science deniers with vaccines, you have science deniers with GMOs. You know, there's, there's all manner of science-denying going on in modern society. And, you know, we, uh, uh, in a free society, what are you gonna do, right? You, the people can think what they want. But if the, if thinking what they want influences policy, which then affects everybody, then your science denial has consequences to the economic health of the nation. And by the way, it's not only the economics, it's your, uh... The economic health, it's your physical health, 'cause medicine flows through advances in science, as well as our security.

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:22

      Well, there's people that deny some aspects of science while conveniently using other.

   3. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson10:27

      (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:28

      That's where it gets weird, right? You're driving a car that's relying on GPS, you're using a phone to complain about the global warming hoax. You know, you're, you-

   5. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson10:37

      Correct. One, one of my more, uh, uh, more sort of popular tweets was... You remember when they, we had the photo of the black hole from a distant galaxy? And it was, it was banner headlines, maybe a year ago, less than a year ago. Banner headlines. And, uh, first photo ever of a bl- of a black hole. And it was an astounding engineering achievement to accomplish that. It was multiple telescopes all around the world, pooling the data to get it right, and it was one of the greatest collaborative efforts we've ever undertaken in my field of astrophysics. Okay. And everybody was loving the results. So, all I tweeted was, "Scientists report first photo of a black hole." Public: "Ooh," "Aah." Scientists report humans are warming the earth. Oh, oh, you, you brought it up? Okay. (laughs) Scientists: We produced the first ever image of a super massive black hole 55 million light years away. The response: "Ooh." Scientists: We've concluded that humans are catastrophically warming the earth. Response: "That conflicts with what I want to be true, so it must be false."

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:42

      Well, it's-

   7. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson11:43

      That is the cherry-picking of science.

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:44

      It is the cherry-picking of science. But the, the global warming thing is very much connected to, uh, a certain type of ideology.

   9. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson11:51

      But that-

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       A certain type of person who thinks of them- themselves as a-

   11. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson11:53

       It doesn't matter to me.

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:54

       ... no-nonsense person.

   13. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson11:55

       What I'm saying...

   14. JRJoe Rogan11:56

       Right?

   15. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson11:56

       What, what... Yes, it does matter. What I'm, what I'm trying to say is...That is a demographic that has cherry-picked science to deny human-caused global warming. There are other demographic, demographics that have cherry-picked other science to deny other things, and it, it's not all located in one political spectrum, I mean, one political branch.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:18

       Right.

   17. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson12:19

       So you tend to find liberal folk complaining that the conservatives who have embraced no to glo- no global warming platform are denying science and they need science on their side. And many of those same people are rubbing crystals together to be healed by the crystal energy, or they're denying vaccines, thinking that they're somehow bad for you. And so, so all of this requires some or total rejection of mainstream science, and we, we, we're living in that world now. And I don't know, uh, I don't think it'll stop the progress of civilization, but it can certainly slow it down and occasionally stall it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan13:00

       Well, that is certainly a problem, but how big of a problem is it? Like how many people are really in denial of science in 2019? And it's gotta be-

   19. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson13:09

       For me, in a free country, that's not what matters.

   20. JRJoe Rogan13:11

       ... a small number-

   21. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson13:11

       What matters is, in a free country, that you elect officials who are not.

   22. JRJoe Rogan13:15

       Officials.

   23. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson13:16

       Yes, you-

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:16

       Right.

   25. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson13:16

       ... you elect people who are scientifically literate.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:19

       Yeah.

   27. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson13:19

       They don't have to be scientists. Uh, I d- j- or, and if they're not scientifically literate, they should be self-aware of that, and then listen to people who are.

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:29

       Right.

   29. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson13:30

       So-

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:31

       Don't you think what they're doing though is t- they're, they're doing what their constituents would like them to do?
5. 15:04 – 28:19

   Sea level, glaciers, and why floating ice doesn’t raise oceans

   1. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson15:04

      Uh, the, uh, not the ice caps 'cause that would include the North and there's no land in the North, so, uh, the glacier ice that's land-based ice, right? 'Cause any ice that's in the water floating, that can melt and it's not gonna change the water level.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      Mm. Oh, okay.

   3. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson15:18

      So it's why... You can do this experiment, it's really cool. Fill up your glass, uh, put some, a few cubes of ice in a glass of water. Fill the glass up as much as you possibly can without spilling it, and the ice is bobbing above that level, okay? 'Cause ice is about 10% buoyant on that. About 10% of an ice cube will be lifted above. This, this is the, this is the iceberg equation, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:38

      Mm.

   5. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson15:39

      Right? That's the tip of the iceberg. Well, you see the 10% above and 90% is not visible to you. This is, by the way, uh, I don't wanna get to too many off-ramps here, but that's one of the, one of the things that they did right in Titanic, okay? If you look at the earliest Titanic movie that was in black and white, they see this huge iceberg on the horizon and then it can't, they can't swerve away from it 'cause it, oh my gosh. It doesn't have... No. No. The iceberg that cuts the bottom of your boat is a little bit of ice sticking out above the water because 90% of it is underwater and that's where the damage occurs. And in the James Cameron Titanic, the iceberg that they hit above water was, looks like a little chunk of ice and "Oh, that couldn't hurt anything." All the damage was underwater. Anyhow, so back to this. So do this experiment and then let the glass sit there and let the ice melt and the water level will stay the same because when ice melts it gets, takes up lower volume than it was when it became ice.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:37

      Mm.

   7. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson16:38

      And that's why pipes break.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:40

      I thought pipes break just because the water expands.

   9. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson16:43

      Yeah, I just described that in the opposite direction.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:45

       Oh. Oh.

   11. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson16:46

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       So because it, as it freezes it... But I didn't know it gets larger.

   13. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson16:50

       That's what expansion means. What-

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       Right.

   15. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson16:51

       ... kind of, what, what's with your vocabulary here? Right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       No, but I'm saying like-

   17. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson16:55

       No, no. Wait, wait. So, so your ice cube is sitting 10%-

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:57

       ... when you freeze something, it gets larger?

   19. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson16:58

       Your ice cube is sitting 10% above the water level and it melts-

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Right.

   21. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson17:00

       ... and becomes water. The water takes up 90% of the volume of the ice.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:05

       Right.

   23. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson17:06

       So that just melts back into the water and it doesn't overflow, even though it was sticking above the water line when you had the glass.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:12

       So when you freeze pipes-

   25. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson17:12

       So now let's do the opposite.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       Okay.

   27. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson17:15

       There's water in the pipes.

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:16

       Right.

   29. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson17:16

       Oh, can I tell you something that might blow your mind?

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:18

       No.
6. 28:19 – 32:32

   Water’s weirdness: density, pipes freezing, skating, and the triple point

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:19

      How does dry ice work?

   2. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson28:21

      Oh, it's just frozen carbon dioxide. That's all.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:23

      Oh.

   4. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson28:24

      So here's the difference, here's the difference. You have a block of frozen h- H2O and a block of frozen CO2. So there they are. It turns out the air pressure on Earth is high enough at s- at sea level, is high enough to allow the w- ice to melt and sustain a liquid state. Okay? The CO2 under air pressure, normal air pressure, it wants to melt but it can't sustain a liquid and it goes straight to gas. If we had much higher air pressure you could f- you could have CO2 melt and have liquid CO2. So now watch what happens. So, so c- can I blow your mind again?

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:12

      Sure.

   6. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson29:12

      This is just, this is really good stuff, okay? It's good, like, physical chemistry. So here you go. So watch what happens. So what happens if I reduce the air pressure, okay? Well, the transition from ice to water is still the same. It's not affected, but the boiling point is affected. As you know, cooking times have to be adjusted on mountaintops because when you boil water it's not 212 degrees. Depending on the height of the mountain, there's less air pressing down that, that's preventing it from boiling, okay? The boiling point is not some absolute fact about the water. It has to do with what the air pressure is sitting above it. You have extremely high air pressure, water has to go to a much higher temperature before it boils. So our, so the boiling point of water that's reported in all textbooks is at sea level, at one atmospheric pressure. That's how you get 212 degrees. If you start reducing the atmospheric pressure, it's 210 degrees, 205 degrees, 200 degrees, 190 degrees, 180 degrees.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:11

      180 degrees?

   8. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:12

      Yo. Yes, and so that's not as hot-

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      But, but-

   10. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:15

       ... as 212 degrees so you gotta cook the food longer.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:18

       Oh, wow.

   12. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:18

       All cooking times are increased for this reason. So now watch, I'm not done with you.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       Uh-oh.

   14. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:24

       Let's keep reducing the air pressure. Okay?

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:28

       Theoretical-

   16. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:29

       Well-

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       ... or, like, possible on Earth?

   18. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:31

       ... no. No, no, y- y-

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:31

       Like, Himalayas.

   20. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:32

       Yeah, but... Or take it up... Y- y- you can ascend in some kind of copter or some kind of device.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:37

       Okay.

   22. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:37

       Or, or, or air balloon, whatever. But I'm saying you can do this experiment in a, in a, in a laboratory.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       Okay.

   24. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson30:42

       Okay? You keep reducing the air pressure. Boiling point keeps dropping. It's 170 degrees, 150, 120, 100 degrees Fahrenheit, 80 degrees Fahrenheit, 50 degrees Fahrenheit, 40 degrees Fahrenheit, 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Holy shit. What happens? The ice melts and becomes water. The water evaporates and becomes steam. And all of that's happening at 32 degrees. There is an atmospheric pressure for which water, ice, and steam co-exist, and it's called the triple point of water. And all ingredients have a triple point.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:28

       Wow. What is the-

   26. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson31:29

       And Mars-

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:30

       ... atmospheric pressure?

   28. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson31:30

       Mars is very close to the triple point of water. So you can have, you can have a simultaneous bath in c- c- certain regions of Mars, a simultaneous bath... Because the air pressure is so low, it's like 1/100th Earth's air pressure. It's very, very low. So you have a place where a, a pot of water, ice cubes, and steam are coming out all at once. It's at the triple point.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:57

       So-

   30. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson31:57

       So, so here's a... The, the, the lesson here is, we live life in our world at one atmospheric pressure, at one, um, uh, uh, uh... Room temperature atmospheric pressure, and we define what is normal based on that life experience, based on how s- how our senses interact with that environment. But the actual universe is far freakier than what we... Than what our senses are exposed, our five senses are exposed to on Earth.

7. 32:32 – 37:05

   Terraforming Mars: nuking poles, UV shielding, and importing water

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:32

      What did you think about Elon Musk's idea about nuking the poles of Mars in order to make it warmer?

   2. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson32:39

      Yeah, so some of these are-

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:40

      (laughs)

   4. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson32:40

      ... kind of pie-in-the-sky ideas.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:41

      Right.

   6. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson32:42

      But the, the... Let's, let's get to what he's trying to get at.

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:45

      Yeah.

   8. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson32:45

      What you want to do is you want to introduce warmth. You wanna block the ozone. You want to block the ultraviolet, so that you can protect organic life. All right? So we have an ozone layer that's three oxygen atoms, O3. And oxy... Uh, ozone likes ultraviolet light. So ultraviolet light comes from the Sun and gets eaten by ozone. It gets eaten. And when you do that, the ultraviolet light doesn't make it to Earth's surface. So even though they say, "Oh, wear, wear, uh, sunscreen and sunblock 45." Yes. That's for the 1% of the ultraviolet that gets through the atmosphere. If you're above the atmosphere, you are fried. So the p- Because ultraviolet is highly hostile to organic molecules and what we're made of as life. So you want to protect... You want to give life a chance. So you want to not only heat Mars, you want to find a way to block the ultraviolet light coming from the Sun. So you need some mechanism, if not ozone, or just live underground, for example. Okay? And so, uh, so, I don't think we should think of the idea as a literal thing, but just... It's a general principle of what you want to accomplish on Mars, in doing so. So you want to warm it. You want to protect what could be the future of, of biochemistry, and then you seed it, and you... And then you wait. You don't want to wait too long. You want to sort of speed it up if you could. And then you terraform Mars. SpaceX has... I visited him a couple of times. He's got a mug you can buy there that it has Mars on it. Okay? And then you put, put hot liquid in it, and Mars turns to, uh, an arable, uh, uh, blue-green marble.

   9. JRJoe Rogan34:34

      That's hilarious.

   10. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson34:34

       So, yeah, it's very good. And it doesn't tell you that when you... It says, "Oh, I got a Mars mug," you know? And you show it off, and then, "Oh my gosh! W- when did that happen?" It's an Earth mug, but it doesn't look like Earth.

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:44

       There's a lot of people that go, uh, on, uh, high-altitude camping-

   12. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson34:47

       Oh, also, also, we think there's a lot of water that was once on Mars, which is a certainty, and we think it's just sitting below in a permafrost. So you wouldn't have to bring water to Mars. By the way, in the really distant future, you can just redirect a comet and get all the water you need, but...

   13. JRJoe Rogan35:04

       How far distant is that?

   14. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson35:05

       The comet's everywhere, dude. We're in a-

   15. JRJoe Rogan35:07

       Right.

   16. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson35:07

       ... shooting gallery.

   17. JRJoe Rogan35:08

       Yeah, that's not what I asked.

   18. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson35:09

       Oh. Well... (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan35:09

       How far away do you think it is before we could redirect water?

   20. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson35:12

       Oh, how far away in time?

   21. JRJoe Rogan35:13

       Yes.

   22. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson35:13

       Okay, sorry. Um, psk. (laughs) Uh, we know how to do it, but there's no real incentive. So there's no engineering, funded engineering plan to do it. But we know how to do it on paper.

   23. JRJoe Rogan35:27

       We know how to do it in a conceivable way?

   24. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson35:29

       Oh, yeah. You... So there... So first of all, it happens with or without us, because we are in the shooting path of countless thousands of asteroids and comets.

   25. JRJoe Rogan35:39

       Right.

   26. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson35:40

       So what you would do is, you'd find one that's headed close to us anyway in the seventh orbit down the line, or the hundredth orbit down the line, and then you'd slightly deflect it in such a way that it would then collide with Mars or even Earth if you wanted. If Earth needed some more fresh water.

   27. JRJoe Rogan35:58

       Yeah, I heard that there's a possibility-

   28. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson35:59

       But it be...

   29. NANarrator36:00

       (laughs)

   30. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson36:00

       The state... The problem is if, if something really big that would fill lakes, were there... If that collided with Earth, that would just be bad for life on Earth, 'cause it's a spontaneous deposit of energy that can change the climate and do... So you want to do that on a planet that you're trying to terraform.
8. 37:05 – 1:00:56

   Hawaii’s Thirty Meter Telescope: sacred land, democracy, and tradeoffs

   1. JRJoe Rogan37:05

      What do you think about what's going on in Hawaii now with the protesting of the building of this largest and latest telescope?

   2. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson37:12

      Yeah, it's the, the, the, uh, TMT, Thirty Meter Telescope.

   3. JRJoe Rogan37:15

      Yeah.

   4. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson37:15

      Which would be t-, uh, you know, the largest ever by far of any kind of telescope. The history of astronomy is one where bigger telescopes become bigger buckets to collect light. That's the only ... Telescopes today are the same as telescopes when they were invented, they're just bigger. Right? The principle behind them is bigger, because what they're doing is simple. All you're trying to do is get as much light as possible, and the more light you get, the dimmer is the object you can detect, and the farther away is the object you can see. And so for every generation of new large telescopes that have been built, it is, it has increased and deepened our understanding of our place in the universe. So that's just the, that's the background. The proposal is for a 30-meter telescope, largest ever, um, on the big island of Hawaii, in, uh, Mauna Kea where there are other telescopes there. Other-

   5. JRJoe Rogan38:13

      That's, that's where the Keck is, right?

   6. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson38:14

      Yeah, I think that if I, uh, it's where the Keck is. I think they s- they sited it in a place that's sort of tucked behind most sight lines to it. But that's not so much what's important here. It's that the, uh, Native Hawaiians, from what I've read, uh, view the mountain as a sacred place. And so, uh, to put a telescope, yet another telescope there becomes sort of invasion of sacred, uh, land. And so, so yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's a ... There's a standoff last I looked. I mean, people protesting in the streets and there's some Native Ch- Hawaiians who embrace this 'cause it means jobs, high, high-quality jobs, engineering jobs, 'cause you gotta build it, gotta maintain it. There's an entire supportive infrastructure for that that means jobs. Um, and it's done in collaboration with the University of Hawaii. Um, and the o- all the other telescopes are partnered with the University of Hawaii where people are educated there. And so, so at the end of the day, uh, you have to ask, well, how are you gonna make decisions going forward? It, it, are you gonna make them democratically? Then you take a vote. Are you, do you want the natives to, to be the deciders of their own fate and is that democratic? Okay, so then natives vote. Okay? Or is it the few people who are protesting, do they w- win the day? I mean, it's, it's complicated.

   7. JRJoe Rogan39:39

      Yeah.

   8. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson39:39

      And it's very, it's very ... There are a lot of nuanced issues going on there. There's a, there's a branch of thinking that the, the United States government and, and normal municipal, uh, leaders have no authority over it. There's some who claim that this is Native Hawaiian property that does not belong to any municipal entity of the US government, so therefore, e- even state representatives have no say. Right? So there's a lot going on there. Okay? But if I were to weigh in, this is how I would do so. Okay? I would say first, um, I think what should happen is y- I don't know if they even have, if the, the infrastru- I, I don't, I don't know how the system is set up, but if they could set it up this way, if the mountain is viewed as sacred by the natives, the natives should have entire say of what happens to the mountain. Okay? That's how I think that should be. So now, what you wanna make sure is that whatever decision gets made and voted upon by the natives, that it's fully informed. F- you wa- you don't wanna vote being misinformed or under-informed in any election, let alone whether you're voting for a telescope on your sacred mountain. Okay? Otherwise, you're voting outta nowhere. Right? You're, you're not, you're, you're, you're influencing your future based on partial information. And decisions based on partial information are bad decisions no matter what. Okay. So, I would say hold a vote with the natives and make sure everybody's fully informed. And here's a bit of information I just wanna add to the information. Okay? You know what we do as astrophysicists. We study the universe, rather passively at that. We sit there at the end of a telescope and wait for light to reach us. It's not a Petri dish where we stir it or heat it or freeze it or crack it or ... We're just kinda there communing with the cosmos. My PhD thesis was significantly fed by data that I obtained from mountaintops, at telescopes. I got my data from mountains in Chile. Uh, uh, Cerro Tololo, ma- and it, it employed all the natives. The natives. The local, local people-

   9. JRJoe Rogan42:02

      Is that the VLT?

   10. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson42:03

       Uh, that's another telescope that ... So there's all these telescopes that all have specific t- um, um, access points to the universe. They're not all asking the same questions.

   11. JRJoe Rogan42:14

       Right.

   12. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson42:14

       And so it's the collection of all the data that gives us the complete understanding, or what we think is a complete understanding, of the universe. So, what we do is try to understand our place in the universe. And all I'm gonna say is that if you have power over what happens on that mountain...And it's sacred to you because whatever that is, it is something important to you and your sense of your understanding of your place in this world. S- that would be spiritual significance. I can tell you that what we learn as astrophysicists from those mountaintops gives us a deeper understanding of who and what we are in this universe. So I would say that whatever is your concept of God, be it the, the creator of the universe, the spirit energy that pervades all of space and time, whatever is your concept, the discoveries of astrophysicists bring you closer to it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan43:36

       I get your perspective. Let me be the opposing view. They feel-

   14. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson43:42

       No, that, I, I'm, I'm not trying to-

   15. JRJoe Rogan43:44

       Go ahead. No, I know you're not. Okay.

   16. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson43:44

       ... I, I, this is just information I'm putting ... This is information, and I walk out of the room, and then y'all vote. Right? I'm not, you know, we believe in democracy here and majority rules. That's a, that's kind of a good thing. It's kinda worked. All right? But, uh, if it's not majority rules, I don't know how they're gonna make decision. But let's say, uh, invent a future where the, the, the natives vote. If they vote, I want them to make sure they heard what I just said and, and now take control of your own fate.

   17. JRJoe Rogan44:11

       I just don't think they care. I think they've decided that that's a sacred space and they don't want anybody doing anything to it.

   18. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson44:18

       Then that's their decision.

   19. JRJoe Rogan44:19

       It means something to them. You think that's okay?

   20. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson44:20

       Uh, I n- I don't an- I don't judge people's, um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan44:26

       But if you wanted to make a convincing appeal to them-

   22. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson44:28

       No, all I would say is what I just told you.

   23. JRJoe Rogan44:30

       ... wouldn't you ... That's it?

   24. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson44:30

       That is all I would tell them.

   25. JRJoe Rogan44:32

       Mm-hmm.

   26. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson44:32

       And when they vote, I want them to understand that fact. I could take it one step further and say, mountaintops, because of the access they give astrophysicists and, and by proxy, us all, to the universe, are sacred places to scientists. Okay? Now it's not sacred in a religious sense, but it's sacred in a, in terms of a pathway to knowing and understanding who and what we are in this universe. We place great value on that. So, but it's not our land. It's w- you know, it was a- (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan45:14

       So specifically these things have to take place-

   28. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson45:16

       Europeans didn't come to Hawaii and find, find legions of scientists there conducting experiments. Okay? They found native peoples governing themselves. So, so, so that's that. The consequence, if it gets voted down and that's permanent and there's no way around that, that telescope is still gonna be built. It just won't be built in Hawaii.

   29. JRJoe Rogan45:37

       Well, where will it be built?

   30. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson45:38

       The-
9. 1:00:56 – 1:08:35

   Freshwater scarcity, glacier melt, and desalination economics

   1. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:00:56

      Yeah. And the rain is, is, though an important difference is, a lot, most of the water on Earth is saltwater that you can't drink.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

      Right.

   3. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:01:03

      And there's a limited amount that's freshwater.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

      How much of a boom to society-

   5. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:01:06

      By the way, all the glaciers are freshwater 'cause that's, it's frozen rain.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:09

      Right.

   7. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:01:10

      Frozen rain. Here's something that no one talks about. When the glaciers melt, where does the water go? Where does it go? Just tell me. You know the answer, just...

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

      Into the ocean?

   9. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:01:22

      Back in the ocean. Okay. So, but this is now non-salty water going into the ocean. So you're mixing freshwater with brackish water, and they occupy different places in the vertical profile of the ocean. And because saltwater is heavier than freshwater, so the freshwater occupies the top.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:42

       Right.

   11. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:01:42

       But it's not as salty as the water at the below. And there are circulations in the ocean, not only up and down, you know, northern latitude, southern latitude, like the Gulf Stream, there's also circulation top to bottom. And the combinations of all these circulations create the stability of the ocean. If you disrupt that, oh my gosh. There are animal, fishes, that can't live anymore where they used to be because the salt level is different. And so some animals might go extinct. Some weather patterns will change because the ocean affects climate. So these are, this is why climate modeling is so critical yet so complicated, just because there are a lot of variables that show up.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:27

       Why can't we take the salt out of the water?

   13. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:02:29

       You can, it just takes energy. You can do it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:31

       But why, but why isn't that been, being done on a large scale?

   15. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:02:33

       You can't, you have to ask, who, who, who's paying for the energy? Where you getting the energy from? It's an energy thing.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:38

       But I would think that would be very valuable. I mean, think about how many people buy bottles of water.

   17. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:02:41

       It's not valuable enough yet. That's the point.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:44

       Well, is it that? Or is it that it's-

   19. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:02:45

       It's, it's pure... It's just-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:46

       Or is it just that it's-

   21. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:02:46

       It's just money. Dude, it's just money. You can ask what does it cost to ship a bo... A, a, a, a, a half pint of water from Fiji? Okay, whatever the hell is the square bottle that you buy in a... Fiji Water. Is it Fiji, right?

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:03:00

       Yeah.

   23. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:03:00

       Fiji Water. What does it cost to, to bottle that in Fiji, ship it here, relative to desalinating the ocean? It's cheaper to ship (laughs) a pint of Fiji. There'll be a day when that's not the case. And future wars are gonna be fought over who has access to freshwater, and the value of water will go up. And by the way, the value of water in space is $10,000 a pound. So if you, if you lasso a comet and you say, "This is a lot of freshwater," uh, yeah, you could, I guess you could bring it back down to Earth, but that's expensive. You're better off selling it to NASA for $9,000 a pound 'cause it costs them $10,000 a pound to put water into orbit.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:45

       So you're better off keeping it up there and somehow or another trans-, running it.

   25. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:03:48

       Yeah. So if you, if you harness water in space, you're better off trading in space with it than bringing it back down to a planetary surface, at the moment.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:03:56

       What is-

   27. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:03:56

       The economics favor that.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:57

       What is the desalination process?

   29. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:03:59

       So it's, it's simple. You just evaporate the water. It's, it's basically a still. (laughs) It's, it's, it's-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:04:04

       Right.
10. 1:08:35 – 1:17:56

    Energy systems: turbines, solar-by-proxy, and why solar isn’t everywhere

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:08:35

       Now, is it battery technology that's the reason why LA isn't completely dependent upon solar? 'Cause it seems like this is the spot to do it. Like, it never rains. I mean, if it rains here 50 days a year-

    2. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:08:45

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:08:45

       ... it's crazy.

    4. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:08:46

       Yeah, or any desert, right?

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:08:47

       Yeah, sure.

    6. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:08:47

       And we're, we're, we're next door-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:08:48

       Anywhere.

    8. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:08:48

       ... to the Mojave Desert, right?

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:08:49

       Oh, yeah. Fill it up.

    10. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:08:50

        So, so one of the problems is, uh, and by the way, the deserts are, are generally localized to certain latitudes on Earth. It's because of general circulation on Earth. So, uh, the air pockets on Earth... There's a lot going on. Earth, the air moves in a lot of ways. But there's a, there's an overriding circulation of air that has air sort of rising up at the equator. I- imagine a cylindrical movement of air that r- that, uh, uh, that girds the Earth, okay? So just above the equator, you have a cylinder rotating where you have air rising. And just below the equator, you have a cylinder rotating the opposite, um, way so that air is still rising at the equator, okay? So air rises at the equator, it's unstable, it makes clouds. The equator's one of, is the cloudiest place on Earth, practically. One of the cloudiest places. Well, how about the other side of those cylinders where the air descends? Okay?

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:09:51

        Okay.

    12. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:09:52

        When you have descending air, you don't make clouds. Well, how big is this cylinder? It's about 30 degrees of latitude wide. So, your rainiest places on Earth are at the equator. That's where you get the Amazon rainforest and the like. And your driest places on Earth are at 30 degrees north and 30 degrees south. Because these cylindrical movements of air have descending air there. So the Mojave Desert, the Sahara Desert, the Gobi Desert, they're all around 30 degrees north latitude. So, there's... So, we live on the surface of the Earth where there are forces operating that are so much bigger than us that we, we, we don't even think about it. Why is... And India would be a desert, 'cause it's right in that zone, were it not for the seasonal, um, monsoons. It doesn't rain much in India, except when it's monsoon season. So, so the monsoon is sort of the exception to what would otherwise happen there. And that's why everyone loves the monsoon. They hate it, but they love it. It cools the weather, they get, uh, sources of water. There it is.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:11:11

        So to ask you the question again-

    14. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:11:13

        Oh, did I not answer it? Sorry.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:11:14

        ... is it batteries?

    16. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:11:14

        Oh. So, uh, so, so-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:11:17

        Battery technology? Like, why, why isn't LA completely solar?

    18. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:11:20

        It should be. It's not. Some of it is cost. LA is so car-heavy, all right? The, and plus, you, you know, there, there's a Lamborghini passing me at 20 miles an hour on the 405. The, the, this is the, the land of wasted horsepower, right? So, any place that has a lot of sunlight should be thriving on solar panels, and you guys aren't. I looked around. Very few hou- very few homes have solar panels. And I don't fully understand that. Um, you could... If you did that, then you'd run your own, run off your own power. You can do this.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:11:53

        Yeah.

    20. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:11:53

        You can do the equation.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:11:54

        They make it very difficult, by the way.

    22. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:11:55

        And so, so, um, yeah. I mean, the price might have to come down a little further. You don't really see the full price of oil. It's, uh, it's subsidized in ways that are not obvious to us. You know, we built the roads with our taxes so that car companies could sell you a car that you drove on the road that they, that was built for them. If they have to build all their own roads, the price of gas to go in the car would've been much higher. The price of your car would've been... Uh, all of that would've been much higher.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:12:25

        If the car companies had to do it?

    24. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:12:26

        What I'm saying is I make a product and I want you to use it, but there's no roads. Oh, I convince you to build the roads so you can buy my car and drive on that road.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:12:36

        That's a weird way of looking at it.

    26. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:12:37

        It's, uh, but it's a way...

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:12:38

        Isn't it

    28. NANarrator1:12:38

        ... it's the people.

    29. NTNeil deGrasse Tyson1:12:38

        It's, it's full-cost accounting. It's full-cost accounting. What is the cost of coal? It's how many people died of lung disease, of pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis. Okay? That's the longest word in the, in the Random House Dictionary.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:12:52

        Is it?

Episode duration: 2:20:43