Joe Rogan Experience #1375 - Edward Norton

1. 0:00 – 1:36

   Lenny Bruce collectibles, curating “stuff,” and sharing personal museums

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      We go. I always know the conversation's gonna get off to a good start when I meet a fellow Lenny Bruce fan, so. (laughs)

   2. ENEdward Norton0:07

      Yes. Yeah, that was, uh, uh, and I, I, you know there's that line in Fight Club, "The things you own end up owning you."

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Yeah.

   4. ENEdward Norton0:16

      And I, I generally am not a stuff guy, but when I came in here, I, I did find myself going, "This is the right kind of place to keep stuff."

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      Yeah.

   6. ENEdward Norton0:24

      And I was, I'd been wandering around lookin' at things and that was, uh, my favorite thing that I saw you have that, a couple of the, of great Lenny Bruce posters.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:33

      Yeah.

   8. ENEdward Norton0:33

      One of which I've never seen.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:34

      Which one? Oh, the Without Tears.

   10. ENEdward Norton0:35

       The, the, the one with his, where he-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Yeah.

   12. ENEdward Norton0:37

       ... it's really wild, he looks like an Indian guru or something-

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Yes.

   14. ENEdward Norton0:39

       ... staring into the middle distance. That's, that's an amazing p- photograph of him.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah, I kinda bought as much vintage Lenny Bruce stuff as I could find and I, uh, this place has sort of evolved into a semi-gallery, you know? It's, it's, uh, I would like to have a house with nothing in it and then have this-

   16. ENEdward Norton0:56

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       ... place just filled with shit.

   18. ENEdward Norton0:59

       No, I, I kind of agree with that. Also, I think that it's fun, when you have people come through a space so that you're actually, like, sharing the things, like th- it's sort of like you're lettin' them, someone come in and wander.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ENEdward Norton1:10

       And, uh, uh, some of the best museums in the world are people's individual curation. Some of the best art collections ever made are better than any museum 'cause they're put together by someone and you're finding, like, the threads and things, you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       Yes.

   22. ENEdward Norton1:22

       So I, I, I think when you can, when you can assemble, like, things that have meant something to you, but you can put 'em in a space where other people can bump into 'em, it's better than just, like, than letting them just collect dust in your own home where they, you stop looking at them, you know?

2. 1:36 – 3:37

   The paradox of acting: intensity, masculinity, and “playing dress-up”

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:36

      You have a very unusual perspective for someone who makes their living as an actor.

   2. ENEdward Norton1:41

      What do you mean? How, why do you think so?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:42

      You're a very thoughtful person.

   4. ENEdward Norton1:44

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:44

      Very thoughtful.

   6. ENEdward Norton1:45

      I know a lot, I know a-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:46

      (laughs)

   8. ENEdward Norton1:46

      ... lot of thoughtful actors.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:47

      I do too, I do too.

   10. ENEdward Norton1:48

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:49

       But it's not common. You gotta find them, you gotta curate those folks.

   12. ENEdward Norton1:54

       Yeah. I, um... It's a funny, it's a funny, it's a funny gig by, like, by definition. It's like, if you think about all the, like, the, the yin yang in it, the paradoxes in it, it's like on the one hand, with guys as actors there'll be a lot of, um, you know, there's a certain kind of, uh, not g- not macho, but there's, like, you know, men'll look to play intense roles and-

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       Right.

   14. ENEdward Norton2:21

       ... these things. But what you're doing is, like, it's, it's you're playing dress up.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:26

       (laughs)

   16. ENEdward Norton2:26

       Like, y- you know, you're, you're, you're like... And I, I always liked, uh, I always liked the... Dorothy Parker, the famous New York, you know, writer said, "Scratch an actor, you'll find an actress."

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:36

       (laughs)

   18. ENEdward Norton2:37

       (laughs) And I think it's the greatest line. It's not, and it's not how it sounds, just to be a little, you know, like n- because he is, it's, that's not an, uh, s- a knock on actresses-

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:47

       No, no, no.

   20. ENEdward Norton2:47

       ... or a femi... But that's, uh, the real truth of the whole thing-

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       Sure.

   22. ENEdward Norton2:51

       ... is, like, we put on makeup, we put on clothes, we play dress up, and we pretend to be other people. And it's like, it, it really is like, you know, um, when people are, like... You know, sometimes y- my brother and sister will lau- 'cause I've done these certain things that have a certain kind of iconic intensity or whatever, right? Like you-

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:12

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ENEdward Norton3:12

       And they look at me and they're like, "Are you kidding? Like, have you ever seen the size of his ankles?" He, they're like, my brother's like, "He's such a twerp." Like, "He's such a..."

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:19

       (laughs)

   26. ENEdward Norton3:19

       He's, my brother's, like, two inches bigger than me and 30 pounds bigger and way stronger, you know my little brother. And he's, uh, and it's always like, "He is the, he's a theater nerd. He's not, like, tough."

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:30

       (laughs)

   28. ENEdward Norton3:30

       They're like, "Don't buy the hype."

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:31

       When you played the Hulk. (laughs)

   30. ENEdward Norton3:32

       Yeah, no. But um-
3. 3:37 – 5:02

   Reinventing yourself in public: persona, fame, and escaping old narratives

   1. ENEdward Norton3:37

      I do, but I do, I, I do think there's, um... There's sometimes there's a, it's really funny the way there's a posture in it sometimes. There's like a pos- there's like a public-facing posture that some people who are in this trade, this weird thing, will adopt. And it's like, (laughs) it's like, hey man-

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:56

      (laughs)

   3. ENEdward Norton3:57

      ... I hate to tell you, but like, like you don't have to live into some... You don't have to live into... Y- uh, I sometimes feel like people are compensating for the fact that what they do in fact is play dress up.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:09

      Right. Do you, do you think it's also that they have to kind of, uh, project this image to ensure that they get more of these tough guy roles or...

   5. ENEdward Norton4:18

      Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I, I think, um... Or, or maybe it's like th- that's who they wanted to be, maybe in a weird way they're living into... Um, some, some people I think, they m- they relish the opportunity to change the story of who they are.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:37

      Mm.

   7. ENEdward Norton4:38

      You know what I mean? They're-

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:40

      Yeah.

   9. ENEdward Norton4:40

      ... they're, they're, uh, they're getting to, through, through getting well known, they're getting this chance to sort of, like, wipe the slate-

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:46

       Yes.

   11. ENEdward Norton4:46

       ... of whatever it is they were getting away from, and they're getting to, you know, the, the chance to sort of create a, create a persona that they're m- they're happier with than, than what, than before, you know?

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:58

       Right, like what they wish they always were.

   13. ENEdward Norton5:00

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:00

       In their darkest times.

4. 5:02 – 9:40

   “Before-and-after” cultural disruptors: Brando, Lenny Bruce, Hendrix

   1. ENEdward Norton5:02

      Yeah, or, or, um, you know... Yeah, there's, there's, uh... I also think there's a funny thing which is there's this history of famous actors, right? So and it, and it, I r- do think it, it sort of begins with Brando 'cause Brando had such an enormous effect on the psychology of men in, in America. He really, he really, like... And if you look at what I would call, like, the great generation of American actors, the, the... Dustin Hoffman, Robert De Niro, Robert Duvall, Gene Hackman, um, Al Pacino, Morgan Freeman, Meryl Streep. Like just, you know, the whole po- that's all, like, the post-Brando generation.

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:42

      Mm-hmm.

   3. ENEdward Norton5:42

      All of those people, literally all of them wanted to become actors because of Marlon Brando.

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:47

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ENEdward Norton5:47

      And, and he, he so rewrote the idea of w- what it was, what it could be, that you h- got a whole... It was like what Bob Dylan did in, in the culture. It was like it rewrote, like-... it just rewrote the game, almost.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:04

      Or like what Lenny did with comedy.

   7. ENEdward Norton6:06

      Yeah, absolutely.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:07

      Yeah.

   9. ENEdward Norton6:07

      Lenny Bruce in... Uh, there... And I... And there are these people who come and they have, they have like a, kind of a s- a permanent... They, they're a permanent before and after-

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:17

       Yes.

   11. ENEdward Norton6:18

       ... in, in a certain kind of field. You know what I mean? And-

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:21

       Hendrix with the guitar.

   13. ENEdward Norton6:22

       Hen- Yeah, yeah. Yes, I would say so. I would say so, in rock guitar, yeah. Uh, although it is interesting when you go back and look at rock in that era. There's that famous story of, I think, of... I don't remember if it's like Pete Townshend making Eric Clapton come with him to hear Hendrix-

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:39

       Yes.

   15. ENEdward Norton6:39

       ... and Clapton crying.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:40

       Yes.

   17. ENEdward Norton6:40

       You know about it?

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:41

       Yeah, I heard that story.

   19. ENEdward Norton6:42

       But you ca- but you also can't discount what Cla- Clapton in i-... You know, there's those famous photos of the wall, Clapton is God, like, like, I... There's... It's, it's hard to like... You, you can't really underrate what Clapton did to guitar, and guitar... you know, in that era too.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:01

       Right. No, he was phenomenal-

   21. ENEdward Norton7:02

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:02

       ... but it was a different thing.

   23. ENEdward Norton7:03

       It was a different thing. Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:04

       Yeah.

   25. ENEdward Norton7:04

       Jimi Hendrix was, was a protean-

   26. JRJoe Rogan7:07

       He, he seemed-

   27. ENEdward Norton7:07

       ... friend of the town.

   28. JRJoe Rogan7:08

       ... like he broke through to a new dimension.

   29. ENEdward Norton7:11

       Yeah. I ag- yeah, I agree.

   30. JRJoe Rogan7:12

       Like he popped through the membrane of existence into this new sound.
5. 9:40 – 12:35

   What made Brando revolutionary: broken sensitivity and real-life behavior

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:40

      There was an authenticity, right?

   2. ENEdward Norton9:42

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:42

      There's a, uh, there's a someth- there's something to his performances where you go, "Oh, well this is more like real life than a fil-"

   4. ENEdward Norton9:49

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:49

      Like, On the Waterfront.

   6. ENEdward Norton9:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:50

      Like, the, the I Coulda Been a Contender thing.

   8. ENEdward Norton9:52

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:53

      Like, when he's doing that, you're like, "Well, the, oh, this is how someone would actually behave if they felt like their life had been a disaster and it could have been avoided."

   10. ENEdward Norton10:03

       Well, you just hit on something though that I... And drives me nuts, 'cause when people sort of talk about Brando they're like, you know, they're sort of the like, the Stanley Kowalski, um, the, the brutal masculinity, et cetera. The thing about Brando is he is beautiful. He's an, he's kind of this enormous Roman-looking guy. But it's, it... Where he kills, where he really kills is this kind of broken sensitivity that he had. And, uh, "I could have been a contender" is not a tough guy speech.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:34

       Right.

   12. ENEdward Norton10:34

       It's the opposite.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:35

       Yeah.

   14. ENEdward Norton10:36

       It's, it's a broken tough guy. It's a guy practically crying, saying like, "You were my, you were my brother, and you should have looked out for me. I needed you looking out for me, and my life is, my life's gone down the toilet-

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:48

       Yeah.

   16. ENEdward Norton10:49

       ... because of that, in that moment, you didn't look out for me."

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:51

       But it's also-

   18. ENEdward Norton10:52

       It's, it's, you know, it's, it's like tearful, it's not...

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:54

       Yes.

   20. ENEdward Norton10:54

       And, and even Sta- even the best moment of Stanley Kowalski in Streetcar is, is really, it's like when he falls on his knees in front of his wife and cries. You know what I mean? It's like that's what he wa-... He was way better in, in a lot of ways, to me, it's the fact that he was actually kind of in touch with his emotional life. It's not that he was-

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:17

       Right.

   22. ENEdward Norton11:18

       ... like so macho at all.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:21

       Right.

   24. ENEdward Norton11:21

       It's that he, he looked that way, but he was, but he actually had this like poetic sensitivity.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:27

       Yes. And it was... It r- it resonated real, like it felt real.

   26. ENEdward Norton11:32

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:32

       And the... If you watch actors before him, there was a certain, uh, the, the, an undeniable theatric element to what they were doing-

   28. ENEdward Norton11:41

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:41

       ... that was like, "Oh, this guy's acting."

   30. ENEdward Norton11:43

       Yeah.
6. 12:35 – 17:46

   Fame’s appetites and discipline: Brando, Elvis, and Dylan’s resistance

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:35

      And I think it was all accentuated by the way he ended his life, like the end of his life. He was enormous.

   2. ENEdward Norton12:39

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:40

      Gigantic fat guy and he just, uh, just given into all of his vices and he was just this guy... He d- he was a beautiful man.

   4. ENEdward Norton12:48

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:48

      He just didn't seem to give a fuck about that at all.

   6. ENEdward Norton12:52

      (Laughs) Yeah. I think, he said something to me one time about how, um, how much he was enjoying his life when he was like 23. And, and he's like, "I-" You know, even when he was doing the play, Streetcar, that made him famous, he was telling me, like, he would get with his pal Diego and go up to Harlem, go to clubs and hit on girls and all these things. And he, and I said, "You weren't aware of what was going on, you know?" And he goes, "Well, there was... I was aware of a certain amount of noise rising, and then one day I woke up and I was sitting on a pile of candy."

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:24

      (laughs)

   8. ENEdward Norton13:24

      That's what he... And, um, and I thought, "What a really wild way to say it." And I do think, I'm not even joking, to me, it's like what you said, it was like after that, there just... It was like there was no boundaries. He was like, he get- he was getting every- everything was... He, he, he could, he wasn't gonna be able to resist. He wasn't disciplined.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:46

      Yeah.

   10. ENEdward Norton13:47

       He wasn't a super disciplined person. He was a very poetic person. I th- and I don't think he was disciplined and I think that a lot of what happened... You know, he had like something like 17 children.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:56

       (laughs)

   12. ENEdward Norton13:57

       Um, and, and he got... You know, he had appetites and he had these things. And I, I think that, um... I, I do think that he, y- you know, strugg- struggled to, to deal with all the things that came with being that famous.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:17

       Yeah.

   14. ENEdward Norton14:18

       You know?

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:18

       And being that famous when there wasn't really a lot of examples of how to do it right or wrong before you.

   16. ENEdward Norton14:24

       Yeah. Uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:25

       It's sort of the Elvis thing, right?

   18. ENEdward Norton14:27

       It, yeah, it's the Elvis thing. The, the flip is like Dylan, who I still find myself, like when you watch the new Scorsese... Have you seen that thing?

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:36

       No.

   20. ENEdward Norton14:36

       Rolling, Rolling Thunder? It's really worth watching that. Um, or the original Scorsese doc about him, No Direction Home. Like, here's this guy who's like in his early 20s and they're coming at him with all this like voice of your generation, all this stuff, and he's like, "That's nothing I can relate to, man." You know? And he's go- and he's going... Like, I can't help wondering if Lenny Bruce loved Dylan. He m- I don't know that, but I would think that Lenny Bruce was tuned into Dylan because Dylan's thing was like, "Don't ask me what it means, man. I wrote it. I don't, I, you know, I don't know what it means. What, what do you think it means?" He was just constantly going, "Buzz off, man. I'm not picking it apart for you."

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:17

       Mm.

   22. ENEdward Norton15:17

       "I'm not, I'm not gonna pick it apart for you. I'm not gonna like buy into this stuff you're putting at me." And how did he have... He, he was 20, 20, 21 years old. Like, who resists, who resists people falling all over them to call them great when they're that age?

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:32

       Right.

   24. ENEdward Norton15:32

       Nobody.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:33

       Right.

   26. ENEdward Norton15:33

       Nobody has that kind of like-

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:37

       Sensibility.

   28. ENEdward Norton15:38

       ... sensibility to go, "Everything you're bringing at me is gonna be bad for me." And I-

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:42

       Wow.

   30. ENEdward Norton15:42

       It's, it, it is like, watch the, if you watch those interviews with him when he's that age, it's pretty astonishing because to your point, like, you're like, "Oh, thoughtful act," whatever. I look at him and I'm like, "Nobody has that discipline at that age."
7. 17:46 – 25:57

   Caricatures and audience pressure: Kinison, Dice, Stern, and changing over time

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:46

      Well, it's always weird when you see somebody lean into something and it's not really them and they become what people want of them. You know? And-

   2. ENEdward Norton17:54

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:54

      ... y- you, like...... a great example in comedy was Kinison. Kinison, when he made it, uh, everyone, he wanted to lay these gigantic lines of coke for him, apparently.

   4. ENEdward Norton18:05

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:05

      They were like-

   6. ENEdward Norton18:06

      (sighs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:06

      ... "Oh, it's him! It's him! He's here!"

   8. ENEdward Norton18:08

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:08

      Chop, chop, chop, chop, chop!

   10. ENEdward Norton18:08

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:09

       They just laid some giant line of coke. And he would joke around about it, like, "I had to do it."

   12. ENEdward Norton18:12

       Oh. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       And, you know, he would do, you know, a giant line-

   14. ENEdward Norton18:15

       Yeah, I can't-

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:15

       ... or almost have a fucking heart attack.

   16. ENEdward Norton18:17

       Right, "I can't not live in-"

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:18

       Right.

   18. ENEdward Norton18:18

       ... "true to the thing," because then, then-

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:20

       Yes.

   20. ENEdward Norton18:21

       ... they'll stop trusting it-

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:22

       Right.

   22. ENEdward Norton18:22

       ... or it won't... Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:22

       But you become a caricature.

   24. ENEdward Norton18:24

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:24

       You become this thing. Like, Dice Clay is another example. Like, Dice Clay used to be... That used to be one part of his act. His name's Andrew Sil- Andrew Silverstein.

   26. ENEdward Norton18:33

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:33

       So he would do his act, and then the Dice man was a character that he would do. But people loved it so much-

   28. ENEdward Norton18:39

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:39

       ... when he would do that character, that the character became his whole act, and then he became the character. Where you see him in real life, he's wearing, like, weightlifting gloves and, you know, is walking around in a Gold's Gym T-shirt. He became-

   30. ENEdward Norton18:50

       Right.
8. 25:57 – 30:12

   Iconic roles and career strategy: avoiding boxes, American History X as “liberation”

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:57

      Yeah. That's also, is it hard as an actor too if you, if you get an iconic role and then you are sort of always remembered for being that guy in that thing? Like, how, how much of a, is i- is it a hard transition to go from an iconic role to n- d- going into your next role where people still wanna talk about the y- the, the big movie that you were in just a, a year or two ago?

   2. ENEdward Norton26:23

      Mm, I, it's never, that hasn't been a big thing for me. I, um, I think, uh, I take, I tend to take a bit of time between things. Um, and also, I, I don't know, when I, you know, like the first thing I did w- kind of popped off pretty hot and then, and then everyone's like sending me like (laughs) pss- you know, psycho, psychotic-

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:54

      Right.

   4. ENEdward Norton26:54

      ... psychotic interesting characters and I was like, "Well, I think I'll do a musical with Woody Allen."

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:59

      (laughs)

   6. ENEdward Norton26:59

      You know what I mean? And, um, wear a plaid jacket and-

   7. JRJoe Rogan27:02

      Yeah.

   8. ENEdward Norton27:02

      ... do a dance number in Harry Winston's like, like-

   9. JRJoe Rogan27:05

      Just switch it up.

   10. ENEdward Norton27:05

       Yeah, or, or and, um, and then what's really weird is like in that first, I did a, I played this lawyer, I played a young lawyer in the Larry Flint film, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:14

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ENEdward Norton27:15

       Which, um, and off of that, I got, I get this distinct vibe of like, "Hey, the next John Grisham movie is c- like, you, the l- the way you were talking in court in that movie, you would kill in this John Grisham thing as the young lawyer," whatever. And, um, and, uh, I remember I met, um, Francis Coppola was gonna direct The Rainmaker, this Grisham thing, and I was up for it. I didn't get it, Matt Damon got it. Um, and I, I didn't do some ballsy thing and like say, "That's not for me." I was like-

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:46

       (laughs)

   14. ENEdward Norton27:46

       I was like, "Francis Coppola," I was like, "I want this," you know?

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:49

       Yeah.

   16. ENEdward Norton27:49

       The thing, but I, when I was talking to him about it, um, and thinking to myself a little bit like, "This seems a little square, but it's like Francis Coppola," you know what I mean? And it's like, uh, and, and he, when I was talking to him about it, he was like, "Well, what, you know, what, what are you int- what are you working on? What are you interested in?" And I was telling him about my friend David who had written, uh, this American History X and that we were working on it. I was kind of telling him what we were trying to do with it and how we wanted to make it as this kind of like guerrilla, you know, thing. And he was like, "You should do that. You should do that immediately." And I was like, "Well, I wanna..." I, I was like, "Don't, don't t-" I, I was like, "Don't cancel, don't, don't," you know? "I still wanna do this with you." He's like, "No, no, I think you should do," y- like, "The way you're talking about that," and he said, "If you do that now, they'll never, they'll never know what to do with you. Like, they'll never be, they'll never be able" ill, to put you in a box."

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:46

       Right.

   18. ENEdward Norton28:46

       Kind of, um, uh, because that's just, you know, if you pull that off... And it, and I kind of was like, I, you know, it, it, I did have an agent at the time who was really old school, really funny, and he was kind of like, he didn't understand that w- uh, he, he was like, he was like, "Find something big. Let's find something big. Big director, big film, big franchise, whatever." And I, I remember thinking like, "Nah, I think I'm gonna do this." And, um, and we knocked that off. And the funny thing is you say, "Well, does that become a trap?" It, that wasn't a trap. That was like a liberation. It's almost like doing that part, it was like a permanent hand grenade on, it was like now, w- it was like, well, uh, we never know what to expect now.

   19. JRJoe Rogan29:30

       Right.

   20. ENEdward Norton29:30

       Right? So it's, it becomes like liberation-

   21. JRJoe Rogan29:33

       Ah.

   22. ENEdward Norton29:33

       ... on a s- at a certain point, 'cause, like I weigh 150. You know, like I'm not big, so like once you do something like that, it's sort of like, "Hm, w- when, th- this guy's, this guy's (laughs) this guy's kinky. What the hell are we gonna"

   23. NANarrator29:47

       (laughs)

   24. ENEdward Norton29:47

       "do with him?" You know what I mean? Um-

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:49

       Right.

   26. ENEdward Norton29:49

       And then it's just sort of like, uh, you get to decide for yourself in a way.

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:54

       That's brilliant.... yeah, like Robert Downey Jr., as amazing as he is, is always gonna be Iron Man. Like that, sometimes you get one of those roles, you know, like, uh, Thor, Chris Hemsworth-

   28. ENEdward Norton30:04

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan30:04

       ... he's fucking Thor. Dude, you're Thor forever. You know? You flirted with that.

   30. ENEdward Norton30:09

       Uh, uh, it depends on h- and it- Mm-hmm.
9. 30:12 – 32:52

   Why Norton did Hulk: mythic tragedy, Prometheus, and the ‘cursed’ Banner

   1. ENEdward Norton30:12

      W- when you did the Hulk, were you worried about that? A l- a little bit.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:17

      Was there any hesitation?

   3. ENEdward Norton30:18

      A little bit. Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:18

      'Cause I was surprised when you did that.

   5. ENEdward Norton30:20

      I g- I got-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:20

      I was like, "This is an interesting choice."

   7. ENEdward Norton30:21

      I g- well, as is evident, I got more worried about it. Uh, you know, I, I, I was, I was very interested because I loved it. I, I, I'm not like snobby about cr-... I loved those, like, comics and I-

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:35

      Me too.

   9. ENEdward Norton30:35

      ... I subscribed to 'em.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:36

       Yeah.

   11. ENEdward Norton30:37

       I, I subscribed to Hulk. I, um, all the darker st- like Dark Knight, Frank Miller-

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:43

       Sure.

   13. ENEdward Norton30:44

       ... all the whole... All of it was really r- you know, it was, it was, um, it, it, it was, it was something I really latched onto and, and I loved the Bill Bixby, uh, Hulk. Yeah, like he's it for me. He's alway-

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:00

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ENEdward Norton31:01

       For anyone our age, like, he's-

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:02

       Yeah.

   17. ENEdward Norton31:02

       ... you know, him walking away at the end of the show-

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:04

       Yeah.

   19. ENEdward Norton31:05

       ... that's it. Um, and I d- I, I, so yeah, no, I, I, I thought i-... Uh, I tend to get... Just the way I felt about American History X, I actually thought American History X was sort of like Othello or MacBeth. I thought it was... That's what I said to David. He had written this kinda edgy thing with a drug plot in it, and I was like, "I think you strip all that away, and you literally just make this about rage destroying a person who's got a lot in him." It's like, it's like a Shakespearean tragedy but it's just... It's skinheads, you know? And that, and that really lit David up, and that's where we went with that, right? But Hulk ha- Hulk is like the, um, it's, uh, Prometheus, right? The guy-

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:49

       Yeah.

   21. ENEdward Norton31:49

       ... who steals fire from the gods for people but he gets burned doing it, and is cursed, right? He, he, he's trying to take, like, the power of nature back out to people from the gods and he gets burned. And that's how I, that's how I thought about it. I was like, "If we could do something like that, that leans into this guy who thinks he's going for something good that's gonna help humanity, and he cracks open, like, the backside of God and, and takes something out that is not meant to be taken out, and now he's cursed. Like, cursed, you know?" That, that's what was amazing. Even as silly as the show was on some levels, Bill Bixby was cursed.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:30

       Yeah.

   23. ENEdward Norton32:31

       Like, that's what... And the end of every show, you were like, "Oh my God, he's still-"

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:35

       This poor bastard.

   25. ENEdward Norton32:35

       "... cursed." Like-

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:36

       Yeah.

   27. ENEdward Norton32:36

       ... alone in the world and cursed, right? And there's something pretty, pretty heavy in that, like, pretty cool in that. And, uh, and so, so it was, it wasn't, um, it, uh, you know, I d- I thought it was, like, really worth a crack.

10. 32:52 – 46:36

    Rickson Gracie cameo and martial arts: calm, control, and Aikido’s philosophy

    1. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       I fucking loved it. How did that scene come to play where you were with Rickson Gracie?

    2. ENEdward Norton32:58

       Oh, 'cause I, 'cause I was... I studied Aikido-

    3. JRJoe Rogan33:01

       Oh.

    4. ENEdward Norton33:01

       ... when I was in college. Um, I, I was studying Aikido, um, and then w- w- when I was studying Aikido, uh, um, Royce Gracie won the... You know, that was w- when I did it.

    5. JRJoe Rogan33:17

       The Ultimate Fighting Championship?

    6. ENEdward Norton33:18

       That was like the late '80s, right?

    7. JRJoe Rogan33:19

       1993.

    8. ENEdward Norton33:20

       '93, okay.

    9. JRJoe Rogan33:21

       Close.

    10. ENEdward Norton33:22

        Yeah, so he-

    11. JRJoe Rogan33:22

        Five years later.

    12. ENEdward Norton33:23

        Right, so but he... I became aware... Oh, no, that's it. That, you're right. You're right, 'cause I was in New York. I was studying Aikido in New York, and, and Royce Gracie won that first UFC. And like I said, I'm, I'm six feet tall but I... Literally, if I'm in shape, I weigh like 155, right? And Royce, when he won that, was-

    13. JRJoe Rogan33:45

        176.

    14. ENEdward Norton33:45

        ... like six feet-

    15. JRJoe Rogan33:47

        Yeah, yep.

    16. ENEdward Norton33:47

        ... and under 180, right?

    17. JRJoe Rogan33:48

        Yep.

    18. ENEdward Norton33:48

        And I remem- it melted everybody's mind.

    19. JRJoe Rogan33:51

        Yeah.

    20. ENEdward Norton33:51

        I mean, it melted everybody's mind. And I, um... So I, I became interested in them and, and what they were doing honestly... Do you, do you know that, um... You know in the story, in their, in that family's whole crazy story about being, um... You know, they were Scotte- uh, th- the grandfather was Scottish, right?

    21. JRJoe Rogan34:13

        Mm-hmm.

    22. ENEdward Norton34:13

        And he was like a, a consler, a c-... He was a customs, he was a customs official in Brazil, and because he had a good relationship with the Japanese consul and helped, was, was very generous in helping Japanese people get their papers to come through and in, the Japanese consul, I think the story is, who s- who knew Aikido and jujitsu offered to, like, teach his sons.

    23. JRJoe Rogan34:41

        Yeah, it was Count Maeda.

    24. ENEdward Norton34:42

        Right, right.

    25. JRJoe Rogan34:43

        Yeah, who came to, he came to Brazil and taught Carlos and Rorion and, and Helio. Well, well, mostly Helio.

    26. ENEdward Norton34:51

        Who are the fat-

    27. JRJoe Rogan34:51

        Helio, yes.

    28. ENEdward Norton34:51

        ... who are the fathers of the Royce VI generation, right?

    29. JRJoe Rogan34:53

        And, and then G- Helio's y- oldest son, I think, I think, uh, Rorion was the oldest son. He's the one who created the Ultimate Fighting Championship. But Rickson, the r- reason why it was so significant that you had him is that was the champion of the family. Like-

    30. ENEdward Norton35:06

        Right.
11. 46:36 – 49:40

    Steven Seagal’s early legitimacy and the politics of martial arts schools

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:36

       He had the full package of it. Did you ever see any of Steven Seagal when he was very young?

    2. ENEdward Norton46:41

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:42

       When he was-

    4. ENEdward Norton46:42

       Yep.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:42

       ... teaching in Japan?

    6. ENEdward Norton46:43

       I was totally fas- I mean, it's like, and it's really-

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       It's weird, right?

    8. ENEdward Norton46:47

       ... like, like me, right?

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:47

       Yeah. (laughs)

    10. ENEdward Norton46:48

        Like act, like, like serious actor-

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:50

        Right.

    12. ENEdward Norton46:50

        ... thoughtful actor. I'm like, "What did," you know, but I, like Above the Law?

    13. JRJoe Rogan46:55

        Yeah.

    14. ENEdward Norton46:55

        Because I was into all that stuff when Above the Law came out and there was this scene in Above the Law and he's in an Aikido, you know, gi with the black thing and he's doing his things. And I was riv, I was like, "Oh my God." Like, like, "This is so cool." Like when have you ever seen this in a movie?

    15. JRJoe Rogan47:12

        Yeah.

    16. ENEdward Norton47:13

        And, um, and he was a, you know, big guy.

    17. JRJoe Rogan47:15

        And he made it violent.

    18. ENEdward Norton47:16

        Yeah. Big and-

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:16

        It's a very unusual sort of contribution to martial arts because m- in martial arts movies.

    20. ENEdward Norton47:21

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:22

        He made it realistic.

    22. ENEdward Norton47:23

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:23

        Like it was one of the most realistic martial arts movies ever.

    24. ENEdward Norton47:26

        Yeah. It was, and, you know, when you look back on it, it, it (laughs) there's things about it that don't date super well.

    25. JRJoe Rogan47:31

        Yeah. Of course. But he-

    26. ENEdward Norton47:33

        But, um-

    27. JRJoe Rogan47:33

        ... was undeniably-

    28. ENEdward Norton47:34

        But literally, like literally what you just showed-

    29. JRJoe Rogan47:36

        ... skillful. Yeah.

    30. ENEdward Norton47:36

        The thing, the thing of the guy coming, it's that simple thing-
12. 49:40 – 58:55

    Motherless Brooklyn: noir mystery, Robert Moses, and New York’s hidden power

    1. ENEdward Norton49:40

       Um, it's called Motherless Brooklyn. Uh, it's ... It was a, you know, it was kind of a big swing 'cause I wrote it and I produced it and-

    2. JRJoe Rogan49:52

       Is this the first time you've done that?

    3. ENEdward Norton49:54

       ... directed it. Um, I ... No. I, I produced and directed the ... The first movie I, uh, directed is Keeping the Faith with ... It's, um, m- it's a ... Me and Ben Stiller play a rabbi and a priest who are best friends, and they, and they both fall for the same girl. Uh, did you ever see that one?

    4. JRJoe Rogan50:11

       No, I didn't. (laughs)

    5. ENEdward Norton50:12

       It's funny, yeah, you'd like it. Um, Ben is hilarious in it. Uh, that was obviously lighter, um, that was a lighter, uh, kind of movie. But it was in ... I'm ... I've lived in New York thir- almost 30 years and I like making movies in New York a lot. That was a pretty light one. This one is more, um ... This takes place in the '50s in New York and it's kind of, um ... It's got a Chinatown, LA confidential kind of a noir, um, bent to it. It's a, it's a mystery, a murder mystery of kind of ... that leads into some of the stuff that happened in New York in the '50s that is hard to believe. Um, because New York was, New York was run by, um, an, uh, uh ... It was run by basically a Darth Vader-like figure who was never elected to public office and pe- ... Excuse me, people thought he was the Parks Commissioner of New York, but he was ... For n- n- ... From 1930 to 1968 he had uncontested authoritarian power over New York City and New York State. And he made every significant decision about the way that the modern infrastructure of New York was built, where the roads went, where the bridges were built, what was torn down, where the projects were built. He, um ... And he was very racist and he baked, like, really discriminatory things that almost sound like conspiracy theory they're so wild and intense into the decisions he made. He was responsible for the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn and going to LA. And nobody knows this. Like, they-

    6. JRJoe Rogan51:46

       Wow.

    7. ENEdward Norton51:46

       You think of N- New York is the great ... That's like the great egalitarian melting pot city where democracy works, except that it was run by a total autocrat.

    8. JRJoe Rogan51:54

       For 38 years?

    9. ENEdward Norton51:55

       Yeah, for, for ... He, he's largely ... It's broadly accepted that no mayor or governor of New York could do a single thing without his say so from basically about 1930 to about 1968.

    10. JRJoe Rogan52:09

        How is that even possible?

    11. ENEdward Norton52:10

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan52:10

        And how, how come no one knows about this? How did you find out?

    13. ENEdward Norton52:12

        People d- ... Well, people do. There's, there's, there's hu- ... Like, in one of the big, um, Burns Brothers documentaries about New York, there's a whole, literally almost a whole episode on him. Um, there's a great book about him, uh, that won the Pulitzer Prize, and there's, uh ... His name was Robert Moses and he ... You know, there's Robert Moses State Beach in New York, and ... But literally people think he was the Parks Commissioner but he was ... And he was like Anakin Skywalker. I ... He, he was like a Jedi Knight. He was a big liberal, progressive believer in progressive change and government reform, and in his early years he got crushed by Tammany Hall and, and the power brokers and he went, he went dark, went complete-

    14. JRJoe Rogan52:54

        (laughs)

    15. ENEdward Norton52:55

        Yeah. That's not the most imposing picture of him that you've got up.

    16. JRJoe Rogan52:58

        That's an-

    17. ENEdward Norton52:58

        There's other ones.

    18. JRJoe Rogan52:59

        No, that's a, that's an imposing picture.

    19. ENEdward Norton53:00

        Find one of the ones of him ... Find one of the ones of him standing in front of his models. There's famous ones of him. Um-

    20. JRJoe Rogan53:05

        That looks like a man of will.

    21. ENEdward Norton53:06

        Yeah, well actually, uh, to, to the left of that, and keep going to the left of that. Um, 'cause there's a scene in our movie where Alec Baldwin is literally l- like that, yeah. That he ... Alec Baldwin essent- plays a character who's based on, in him. Inspired by him, I should say.

    22. JRJoe Rogan53:20

        Mm-hmm.

    23. ENEdward Norton53:20

        It's not at all ... In my film it's not the true story. But yeah, there you go. Um, and, um ... But I think this idea ... I was really interested in this idea ... You know, what's great about Chinatown as a film is, um, it's mostly sexy. The m- ... You, you don't know what the hell is going on in that movie. Like, until the, until 20 minutes before the end you have absolutely no idea really what's going on in that movie, but it's just sexy. It's like the music is amazing, the photography's incredible, the actors are, like, adult and real and he's, he's Nicholson, right?

    24. JRJoe Rogan53:56

        Right.

    25. ENEdward Norton53:56

        You ... The hook is, like, Nicholson is so cool you really will kind of follow him. You'll watch the way he deals with anything and just, you're just laughing and enjoying it, right? But underneath it all when you're done you go-... did that, is that true? Did LA, is LA basically built on stolen water? Is that like the, like, LA's original sin is that people made fortunes, the valley was just farms, and they stole the water from up north and, you know, rigged the game and made these gigantic fortunes by irrigating San Fernando Valley? And you, you, you come away with like, you come away with an awareness that, like, the California story's not exactly what it's cracked up to be. Right? It's, there's some big crimes underneath it and, and the people who d- and, and that, in that movie, it's like, yeah, the p- people ripped everybody off. They faked droughts. They, they created fortunes for themselves, and the type of people who did that also raped their daughters. Literally, that's like what that movie is about. It's, um... And it, and it's pretty bleak. It's like you can't make a difference. You cannot change anything. Like, and if you try, the person you're trying to help is gonna end up with a bullet through her eye, dead on the steering wheel. Like, it's, it's a really dark movie. And people forget that because you just go, "Oh, Nicholson, Faye Dunaway." It's like, no, that's a, that's a really, really bleak movie. But I love, I love the idea that, that you can do things where like the, the f- the pleasure of it is like the pleasure of movies. It's grown up. It's kind of what we've been talking about. It's like, like if you said to most people, if you showed Chinatown to most critics today, they'd go, "Long, boring," whatever. It's like you wanna say, "Fuck off." Like, "Fuck off." Like, what, what is it that you w- who, why are you, why are you assuming people can't handle grown up? You know what I mean?

    26. JRJoe Rogan55:56

        Mm-hmm.

    27. ENEdward Norton55:57

        And, and I think that, that I really dig those things where you go through... The movie starts. You look at it and you go, "This looks really good. This looks really grown up. This is big." The actors are like, like adult and authoritative. The dialogue's great. The music is great. It's hypnotic. And your brain just goes, "I don't know what's going on. I don't care. I'm bought in." And then, and if there's this, a character in it that you can hook into, you float, you float through those movies. You just kinda go, "Where's this going? What's going on? I d- Oh man, that guy. She's great. He's great. Wow." Like this is just all juicy and great, and by the end, you get somewhere and you kinda go, "I'll be damned. That actually was about big things. Did those things really happen?" You know? That's... I really dig those movies. I dig Chinatown, LA Confidential. Um, I think The Godfather works that way. The Godfather's about immigrants, you know? It's about immigrants normalizing in America. Y- you don't, it's like, that's a long movie.

    28. JRJoe Rogan56:58

        Yeah.

    29. ENEdward Norton56:58

        You just settle in for that movie.

    30. JRJoe Rogan56:59

        Right.
13. 58:55 – 1:03:38

    Making ‘grown-up’ movies: attention spans, studio cycles, and breakthrough years

    1. JRJoe Rogan58:55

       As someone who doesn't make movies, I always wonder, like, what happened between like say Steve McQueen's Le Mans?

    2. ENEdward Norton59:02

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan59:02

       You, did you ever see that movie?

    4. ENEdward Norton59:03

       Of course, yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan59:04

       You m- remember how there's no dialogue at all for like the longest time? And I remember I watched it recently within the last couple years, and one of the thoughts was, "I don't even know if they could do this today, if anybody would allow them to make a movie where no one talks for a long time." They're just sorta setting the stage of what it means to be a race car driver-

    6. ENEdward Norton59:24

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan59:24

       ... and what's the atmosphere of the races. It's just the f- the idea that you were saying earlier about having this short attention span theater, this, this, the, these movies that are designed for what they believe is a populous and people that don't have the interest in something that's more unique or something that requires thought, something that drags you in.

    8. ENEdward Norton59:48

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan59:48

       And that was much more common in the past. Like, why was it more common in, in that era of McQueen and all those other movies that they did like that? And what has happened? And like these rare examples, like when a guy does break through with something like Do the Right Thing-

    10. ENEdward Norton1:00:04

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

        ... or a, uh, a, a, a few other examples, why doesn't that stimulate the, the appetite for more?

    12. ENEdward Norton1:00:11

        Well-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:11

        Is it that hard to do?

    14. ENEdward Norton1:00:13

        On one level, on one level, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's easy to recognize when they're great, but-... it's still not e- it's still not easy to make them great. I, it's still ... We're talking about people who are some of our greatest artists or directors, you know what I mean?

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:35

        Right.

    16. ENEdward Norton1:00:35

        They, and lots of people, they try on some level, um, they try on some level, but they just, not everybody is Spike Lee.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:44

        Right.

    18. ENEdward Norton1:00:44

        You know what I mean? Um, not everybody is Francis Coppola or, you know, it's, it's like, it, it, it ... People, people, sometimes people make things (laughs) and they actually are slow.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

        Yes. Yeah, yeah.

    20. ENEdward Norton1:00:57

        You know what I mean? Like (laughs) -

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:00:58

        It doesn't work, yeah.

    22. ENEdward Norton1:00:59

        You know what I mean? You're like, it-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:00

        It misses. Yeah.

    24. ENEdward Norton1:01:01

        It's like, it's like in Spinal Tap when they're like, "It's a f- it's a fine line between stupid and clev-" you know? (laughs) No. "It's a fine line between clever and stupid."

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

        Yeah.

    26. ENEdward Norton1:01:10

        You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's, um ... I think people try, but, uh, I d- I think, I think that, uh, there are some people who really do think Jaws had a big effect on movies because it, it was, it was like the first true blockbuster, right? And ... I don't know. You know what, actually though? I'm, I'm, I'm wrong. I, I think that what happens more often than not is adult people get the jobs at the big companies that make the decisions about what to make, right? And at a certain point, they sort of age out. They start to age out, and they don't actually have any idea what, what w- the vibe is. They don't know what to make for the coming wave of younger people, and so these little windows open up now and then where, in that era, they needed, there was, they needed new people. They needed like, n- you know, George Lucas making American Graffiti. Nobody thought that movie was gonna be a hit. Nobody. You know? Um, th- they, they open up. They say, "We don't know what to do. Do something different." And a couple of new voices, like, come in and they make things that are, are really different, you know? But the idea that that was o- only then l- like, there's a whole book right now about 1999. You know, there's this book that came out about how 1999 was one of those years where because the studios had kinda lost their sense of exactly what to do and Miramax was making a shit ton of money on, on auteur-driven movies made for low cost and the studios all went and set up little mini Miramaxes, right? And the result was that, like, in that year, you had like mag- you know, Paul Thomas Anderson, Wes Anderson, Alexander Payne, Spike Jones, David O. Russell, Fincher, the Wachowskis. Like, an unbelievable array of directors made really, really memorable films in that year, and I think it was because it was like another one of those moments like, "We, we, we don't know what to, we don't know what to do. We're just gonna have to like close our eyes and go, 'You kids, you kids figure it out.'"

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:03:38

        Mm-hmm.

    28. ENEdward Norton1:03:38

        You know what I mean?

14. 1:03:38 – 1:17:59

    Directing logistics: collaboration, tight schedules, stunts, and period-car chaos

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:38

       Well, that's the, the thing about films, it seems to me, uh, it's such a collaborative effort, and when you have so many moving pieces and so many people involved that have a d- a, an, a say in the decision-making process, it's gotta be insanely difficult to get something out that's pure.

    2. ENEdward Norton1:03:55

       Yes. That's true. That's true. I, Francis Coppola said that, um, "The best thing about making films is that they're collaborative, and the worst thing about making films is that they're collaborative." (laughs)

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:04:09

       (laughs)

    4. ENEdward Norton1:04:09

       And he also said, "It's the last, it's the last moral, totalitarian, um, job in the world," like being a director or something. I can't remember. But i- it's true. You, you, it's, it's a very, um, 'cause like I made this movie. I had like, I had, um, a fraction of like the budget of The Irishman, right? I'm just, which I'm naming only 'cause it was a, a period piece, you know? Mine's in the '50s. That one's across the things. And, and I had like, like, l- less days to do it than I had on my first movie that I directed. Um-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:04:43

       How many days did you have to do it?

    6. ENEdward Norton1:04:45

       F- like 46, which for perspective, Fight Club was 130-day shoot. Um, and, and 46 days is less than most movies I've made, and this was a big 1950s like period film with a huge like French Connection-style char- car chase in the opening running through Harlem, across the bridge, down into Queens. You know, we weren't, we weren't like making a little kitchen sink drama. Um, and to figure that out, that is like, you can be like, "I'm the v- I got the vision. We're gonna do this." But there's a kinda madness in saying, "This is what I wanna do. I wanna recreate the old Penn Station that doesn't exist anymore," right? Which we have in the film, like my character goes into the old Penn Station that was torn down in 1963 or whatever, and, um, and you only pull that off with the most kickass Justice League of collaborators-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:05:40

       Yeah.

    8. ENEdward Norton1:05:40

       ... imaginable. Like, they make you look like you're a visionary or know what you're doing because you get these people with crazy talents of their own, and I don't mean just cast, although I had that too in this. I mean like some of the very, very, very best people bring their, their talent to like making that work, and, um, and so that's like when you say like, your job is l- is more to say, "I have really talented people. I've got to get their frequency wave in line with mine. If I can get their frequency wave in line with mine, then it can be my, my idea, my vision, my weird ideas can be in there, but it's with, it's executed with the help of people who believe in it and buy into it." You know? That's, that's the key is like you're, you're, you're marshaling people w-... um, to get to i- in sync with you. And, um, and you know, I have a sick cast. It's like, uh, Bruce Willis, Alec Baldwin, Willem Dafoe-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:06:44

       Huh.

    10. ENEdward Norton1:06:45

        ... Bobby Cannavale, um, Michael K. Williams, who was, like, Omar on The Wire.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:06:50

        Wow.

    12. ENEdward Norton1:06:51

        Uh, this great actress, Gugu Mbatha-Raw and, and Leslie Mann, and, you know, on and on and on. And I got... And all these people did this as a favor to me, uh, 'cause I didn't have any money to do it.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:07:02

        Wow.

    14. ENEdward Norton1:07:02

        So from- starting with Bruce, Bruce was like... Uh, you know, he said to me a long time ago, "I'll... If you have something good, I wanna be in it. I really wanna do the kind of stuff you're doing, and I really mean it. I'll, I'll do anything you wanna do and help you get it done." I was like, "He's not gonna remember that."

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:07:18

        (laughs)

    16. ENEdward Norton1:07:18

        You know, he's gonna be like, "Sure, sure. But I'm doing Die Hard, like, for the rest of the year."

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:07:22

        Right.

    18. ENEdward Norton1:07:22

        And he didn't. He was like, "Where do you need me? I told you, I'm in."

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:07:25

        Wow.

    20. ENEdward Norton1:07:25

        "Let's get it done." And basically, Bruce, Alec, Willem, people like that, I practically call them co-financiers on my film 'cause they- I only got it done because they deferred everything, you know? And I think that's really cool.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:07:39

        That's amazing.

    22. ENEdward Norton1:07:40

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:07:40

        When you write something like this car chase scene through Harlem, I mean, I would imagine the logistics of pulling something like that off, it's gotta be insane.

    24. ENEdward Norton1:07:49

        It was, yeah, it's nuts. Like-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:07:50

        How does... When you wrote it and you brought it to the people that are the, the stunt people, the people that coordinate these chase scenes, were they like, "Oh, fuck."

    26. ENEdward Norton1:07:59

        People get... People, yes. Um, you know, doing the things is not hard. Getting permission-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:08:10

        Yes.

    28. ENEdward Norton1:08:10

        ... to do them in Manhattan is, is tricky. And there are people who look at you like, "You're dreaming, man."

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:08:18

        Right.

    30. ENEdward Norton1:08:18

        Like, you're not... And, and w- and you, what you do is you go out and scout, and you start... You say, "Look, this is the... We can do this here and this here, and this isn't hard, this isn't hard. We only need this one block cleared," and these things. Then, you, like, find that place where you're like, "I want him to do a huge screeching turn onto Frederick Douglass Boulevard because it has a nine-block stretch where there's very few buildings that don't look like they're in the '50s," right?

Episode duration: 1:25:50