EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,127 words- 0:00 – 15:00
We go. I always…
- JRJoe Rogan
We go. I always know the conversation's gonna get off to a good start when I meet a fellow Lenny Bruce fan, so. (laughs)
- ENEdward Norton
Yes. Yeah, that was, uh, uh, and I, I, you know there's that line in Fight Club, "The things you own end up owning you."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
And I, I generally am not a stuff guy, but when I came in here, I, I did find myself going, "This is the right kind of place to keep stuff."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
And I was, I'd been wandering around lookin' at things and that was, uh, my favorite thing that I saw you have that, a couple of the, of great Lenny Bruce posters.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
One of which I've never seen.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which one? Oh, the Without Tears.
- ENEdward Norton
The, the, the one with his, where he-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... it's really wild, he looks like an Indian guru or something-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ENEdward Norton
... staring into the middle distance. That's, that's an amazing p- photograph of him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I kinda bought as much vintage Lenny Bruce stuff as I could find and I, uh, this place has sort of evolved into a semi-gallery, you know? It's, it's, uh, I would like to have a house with nothing in it and then have this-
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... place just filled with shit.
- ENEdward Norton
No, I, I kind of agree with that. Also, I think that it's fun, when you have people come through a space so that you're actually, like, sharing the things, like th- it's sort of like you're lettin' them, someone come in and wander.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ENEdward Norton
And, uh, uh, some of the best museums in the world are people's individual curation. Some of the best art collections ever made are better than any museum 'cause they're put together by someone and you're finding, like, the threads and things, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ENEdward Norton
So I, I, I think when you can, when you can assemble, like, things that have meant something to you, but you can put 'em in a space where other people can bump into 'em, it's better than just, like, than letting them just collect dust in your own home where they, you stop looking at them, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
You have a very unusual perspective for someone who makes their living as an actor.
- ENEdward Norton
What do you mean? How, why do you think so?
- JRJoe Rogan
You're a very thoughtful person.
- ENEdward Norton
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Very thoughtful.
- ENEdward Norton
I know a lot, I know a-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ENEdward Norton
... lot of thoughtful actors.
- 15:00 – 30:00
Mm. …
- ENEdward Norton
Dylan. He m- I don't know that, but I would think that Lenny Bruce was tuned into Dylan because Dylan's thing was like, "Don't ask me what it means, man. I wrote it. I don't, I, you know, I don't know what it means. What, what do you think it means?" He was just constantly going, "Buzz off, man. I'm not picking it apart for you."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- ENEdward Norton
"I'm not, I'm not gonna pick it apart for you. I'm not gonna like buy into this stuff you're putting at me." And how did he have... He, he was 20, 20, 21 years old. Like, who resists, who resists people falling all over them to call them great when they're that age?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ENEdward Norton
Nobody.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ENEdward Norton
Nobody has that kind of like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sensibility.
- ENEdward Norton
... sensibility to go, "Everything you're bringing at me is gonna be bad for me." And I-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- ENEdward Norton
It's, it, it is like, watch the, if you watch those interviews with him when he's that age, it's pretty astonishing because to your point, like, you're like, "Oh, thoughtful act," whatever. I look at him and I'm like, "Nobody has that discipline at that age."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's amazing how uniquely qualified he was for that position at that point in time in that very strange tumultuous time in history as well.
- ENEdward Norton
And not only that, right at the moment that, that, like, Joni Bias brings him out on the stage at the Newport Folk Festival and basically goes, "This is the prince. This is, I anoint you. He's the one. He's Neo. He's the f- he is the one." And the next year, he doesn't even take one year to go, to go, "Let me just, let me just lean into your love." The next year he comes with an electric guitar and plugs it in at the Newport Folk Festival, and people start screaming in agony like going, "What are you doing?" Like, "You're Bob Dylan, you're the king of folk. You can't plug in a guitar." And people are like running to try to cut his cords with an ax in this thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ENEdward Norton
Like that's how much of a betrayal. And he's like... There's people yelling, "Traitor," at him and he's going, "I don't believe you." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ENEdward Norton
"I think you're a liar." Like, and he, and he's turning around to Robbie Robertson and going, "Play it loud." I mean, the guy is so punk rock.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- ENEdward Norton
He's so totally punk rock. He, he was as punk rock as anybody ever.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think he probably had to be just to resist what they were trying to box him into.
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah. And by, but there's never been anybody who was more like, "Oh, you like what I'm doing? I'm gone. I'm over here."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ENEdward Norton
Like, "Enjoy. Uh, you're gonna not like it because you like what I just did. Now where I'm going, you're gonna be discombobulated and upset, and eventually you're gonna catch up. And then when you catch up, I'm gonna move on to something else." Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ENEdward Norton
It's, it's really (laughs) , it really is amazing, is amazing 'cause how many people do you know in any of the things we all do who get a taste of a thing and don't like lean into it for a while?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- ENEdward Norton
Right? Like, who don't kind of go, "Well, this feels good." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ENEdward Norton
"Maybe I'll just hang out right here." And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's always weird when you see somebody lean into something and it's not really them and they become what people want of them. You know? And-
- 30:00 – 45:00
Mm-hmm. …
- JRJoe Rogan
you get one of those roles, you know, like, uh, Thor, Chris Hemsworth-
- ENEdward Norton
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... he's fucking Thor. Dude, you're Thor forever. You know? You flirted with that.
- ENEdward Norton
Uh, uh, it depends on h- and it- Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and I think it depends on how many of 'em you do.
- ENEdward Norton
W- when you did the Hulk, were you worried about that? A l- a little bit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was there any hesitation?
- ENEdward Norton
A little bit. Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause I was surprised when you did that.
- ENEdward Norton
I g- I got-
- JRJoe Rogan
I was like, "This is an interesting choice."
- ENEdward Norton
I g- well, as is evident, I got more worried about it. Uh, you know, I, I, I was, I was very interested because I loved it. I, I, I'm not like snobby about cr-... I loved those, like, comics and I-
- JRJoe Rogan
Me too.
- ENEdward Norton
... I subscribed to 'em.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
I, I subscribed to Hulk. I, um, all the darker st- like Dark Knight, Frank Miller-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- ENEdward Norton
... all the whole... All of it was really r- you know, it was, it was, um, it, it, it was, it was something I really latched onto and, and I loved the Bill Bixby, uh, Hulk. Yeah, like he's it for me. He's alway-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ENEdward Norton
For anyone our age, like, he's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... you know, him walking away at the end of the show-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... that's it. Um, and I d- I, I, so yeah, no, I, I, I thought i-... Uh, I tend to get... Just the way I felt about American History X, I actually thought American History X was sort of like Othello or MacBeth. I thought it was... That's what I said to David. He had written this kinda edgy thing with a drug plot in it, and I was like, "I think you strip all that away, and you literally just make this about rage destroying a person who's got a lot in him." It's like, it's like a Shakespearean tragedy but it's just... It's skinheads, you know? And that, and that really lit David up, and that's where we went with that, right? But Hulk ha- Hulk is like the, um, it's, uh, Prometheus, right? The guy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... who steals fire from the gods for people but he gets burned doing it, and is cursed, right? He, he, he's trying to take, like, the power of nature back out to people from the gods and he gets burned. And that's how I, that's how I thought about it. I was like, "If we could do something like that, that leans into this guy who thinks he's going for something good that's gonna help humanity, and he cracks open, like, the backside of God and, and takes something out that is not meant to be taken out, and now he's cursed. Like, cursed, you know?" That, that's what was amazing. Even as silly as the show was on some levels, Bill Bixby was cursed.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
Like, that's what... And the end of every show, you were like, "Oh my God, he's still-"
- JRJoe Rogan
This poor bastard.
- ENEdward Norton
"... cursed." Like-
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Yeah. …
- ENEdward Norton
into, into neutral. That's like the, that's his, that is really his contribution. He was like, you can take, you can take the most aggressive energy and you can neutralize it. And you can neutralize it very peacefully or you can neutralize it with a little more teeth in it, depending on how aggressive the person's being. But I loved that. I thought that was amazing because it was like, I, I wasn't like looking to be in fights, but I loved the idea that you had con- that you could have control and you could like neutralize. And, and I, I think, I think there's something kind of amazing in that. I think it's like actually aligns with like yoga, with, with meditation, w- with all, all things, surfing. I mean, I, I, that's what surfing is. It's like there's all this energy coming at you, like, and it's gonna like put you into the rocks or rock you or flip you over or hurt you, and you, but you, you do- you don't let that happen. You kind of, you look at it, you look at a million waves, you figure out how to move yourself, you get in there, and you get the exact opposite of getting torched. You get like the best thing ever, right? And I, I, I think things like that that are, where you have to, those are like zen, you know what I mean? And I think j- like jujitsu, what real- what you're saying is really ultimately like why he was great is he had, he ha- he had like the deepest zen-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... of anybody in the whole thing 'cause he was the calmest. And he had like the micro, micro, micro, micro understanding of forms, but really like it's something deeper. It's like he, it, it, it's like Neo in The Matrix. He's like seeing it w- with more granularity.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He had everything.
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He had the full package of it. Did you ever see any of Steven Seagal when he was very young?
- ENEdward Norton
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
When he was-
- ENEdward Norton
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... teaching in Japan?
- ENEdward Norton
I was totally fas- I mean, it's like, and it's really-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's weird, right?
- ENEdward Norton
... like, like me, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- ENEdward Norton
Like act, like, like serious actor-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ENEdward Norton
... thoughtful actor. I'm like, "What did," you know, but I, like Above the Law?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
Because I was into all that stuff when Above the Law came out and there was this scene in Above the Law and he's in an Aikido, you know, gi with the black thing and he's doing his things. And I was riv, I was like, "Oh my God." Like, like, "This is so cool." Like when have you ever seen this in a movie?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
And, um, and he was a, you know, big guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he made it violent.
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah. Big and-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a very unusual sort of contribution to martial arts because m- in martial arts movies.
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He made it realistic.
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like it was one of the most realistic martial arts movies ever.
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah. It was, and, you know, when you look back on it, it, it (laughs) there's things about it that don't date super well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Of course. But he-
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Mm-hmm. …
- JRJoe Rogan
And like these rare examples, like when a guy does break through with something like Do the Right Thing-
- ENEdward Norton
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... or a, uh, a, a, a few other examples, why doesn't that stimulate the, the appetite for more?
- ENEdward Norton
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it that hard to do?
- ENEdward Norton
On one level, on one level, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's easy to recognize when they're great, but-... it's still not e- it's still not easy to make them great. I, it's still ... We're talking about people who are some of our greatest artists or directors, you know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ENEdward Norton
They, and lots of people, they try on some level, um, they try on some level, but they just, not everybody is Spike Lee.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ENEdward Norton
You know what I mean? Um, not everybody is Francis Coppola or, you know, it's, it's like, it, it, it ... People, people, sometimes people make things (laughs) and they actually are slow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
You know what I mean? Like (laughs) -
- JRJoe Rogan
It doesn't work, yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
You know what I mean? You're like, it-
- JRJoe Rogan
It misses. Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
It's like, it's like in Spinal Tap when they're like, "It's a f- it's a fine line between stupid and clev-" you know? (laughs) No. "It's a fine line between clever and stupid."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's, um ... I think people try, but, uh, I d- I think, I think that, uh, there are some people who really do think Jaws had a big effect on movies because it, it was, it was like the first true blockbuster, right? And ... I don't know. You know what, actually though? I'm, I'm, I'm wrong. I, I think that what happens more often than not is adult people get the jobs at the big companies that make the decisions about what to make, right? And at a certain point, they sort of age out. They start to age out, and they don't actually have any idea what, what w- the vibe is. They don't know what to make for the coming wave of younger people, and so these little windows open up now and then where, in that era, they needed, there was, they needed new people. They needed like, n- you know, George Lucas making American Graffiti. Nobody thought that movie was gonna be a hit. Nobody. You know? Um, th- they, they open up. They say, "We don't know what to do. Do something different." And a couple of new voices, like, come in and they make things that are, are really different, you know? But the idea that that was o- only then l- like, there's a whole book right now about 1999. You know, there's this book that came out about how 1999 was one of those years where because the studios had kinda lost their sense of exactly what to do and Miramax was making a shit ton of money on, on auteur-driven movies made for low cost and the studios all went and set up little mini Miramaxes, right? And the result was that, like, in that year, you had like mag- you know, Paul Thomas Anderson, Wes Anderson, Alexander Payne, Spike Jones, David O. Russell, Fincher, the Wachowskis. Like, an unbelievable array of directors made really, really memorable films in that year, and I think it was because it was like another one of those moments like, "We, we, we don't know what to, we don't know what to do. We're just gonna have to like close our eyes and go, 'You kids, you kids figure it out.'"
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ENEdward Norton
You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's the, the thing about films, it seems to me, uh, it's such a collaborative effort, and when you have so many moving pieces and so many people involved that have a d- a, an, a say in the decision-making process, it's gotta be insanely difficult to get something out that's pure.
- ENEdward Norton
Yes. That's true. That's true. I, Francis Coppola said that, um, "The best thing about making films is that they're collaborative, and the worst thing about making films is that they're collaborative." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ENEdward Norton
And he also said, "It's the last, it's the last moral, totalitarian, um, job in the world," like being a director or something. I can't remember. But i- it's true. You, you, it's, it's a very, um, 'cause like I made this movie. I had like, I had, um, a fraction of like the budget of The Irishman, right? I'm just, which I'm naming only 'cause it was a, a period piece, you know? Mine's in the '50s. That one's across the things. And, and I had like, like, l- less days to do it than I had on my first movie that I directed. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
How many days did you have to do it?
- ENEdward Norton
F- like 46, which for perspective, Fight Club was 130-day shoot. Um, and, and 46 days is less than most movies I've made, and this was a big 1950s like period film with a huge like French Connection-style char- car chase in the opening running through Harlem, across the bridge, down into Queens. You know, we weren't, we weren't like making a little kitchen sink drama. Um, and to figure that out, that is like, you can be like, "I'm the v- I got the vision. We're gonna do this." But there's a kinda madness in saying, "This is what I wanna do. I wanna recreate the old Penn Station that doesn't exist anymore," right? Which we have in the film, like my character goes into the old Penn Station that was torn down in 1963 or whatever, and, um, and you only pull that off with the most kickass Justice League of collaborators-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... imaginable. Like, they make you look like you're a visionary or know what you're doing because you get these people with crazy talents of their own, and I don't mean just cast, although I had that too in this. I mean like some of the very, very, very best people bring their, their talent to like making that work, and, um, and so that's like when you say like, your job is l- is more to say, "I have really talented people. I've got to get their frequency wave in line with mine. If I can get their frequency wave in line with mine, then it can be my, my idea, my vision, my weird ideas can be in there, but it's with, it's executed with the help of people who believe in it and buy into it." You know? That's, that's the key is like you're, you're, you're marshaling people w-... um, to get to i- in sync with you. And, um, and you know, I have a sick cast. It's like, uh, Bruce Willis, Alec Baldwin, Willem Dafoe-
- JRJoe Rogan
Huh.
- ENEdward Norton
... Bobby Cannavale, um, Michael K. Williams, who was, like, Omar on The Wire.
- 1:15:00 – 1:17:06
You don't have anything.…
- ENEdward Norton
addicted. But, but when you're on a bike and you realize, like, I am floating in a sea of people who are going to mess up, someone is going to mess up, and they've got airbags and, you know, new modern stuff, and I- you're on this, but, uh, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't have anything.
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah, I don't, i think, I think, I think this is way more dangerous, riding, um, than, than New York.
- JRJoe Rogan
That makes sense when you talk about things like the 405 or the 101-
- ENEdward Norton
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... when people are flying by and passing and changing lanes, and the, the texting too. It is-
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah, and also the big avenues. People get up, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... Wilshire Boulevard or whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- ENEdward Norton
They're looking at a thing and they blow that red light.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ENEdward Norton
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
All the time.
- ENEdward Norton
And half the times you hear about or see bad accidents here, um, especially if they involve motorcycles or something, it's like, it w- the, it's not like the person screwed, the b- the, the person on the bike didn't screw up. Someone went through a red light-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ENEdward Norton
... and just broadsided them, or they T-boned the thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ENEdward Norton
You know, it's, it's just, it's like, do you really wanna make the bet, the huge bet on yourself, uh, where, where what you're riding on is other people's, um, concentration, you know? It's...
- JRJoe Rogan
Were you riding when you were living out here?
- ENEdward Norton
I've never ... I, I, I've always lived in New York.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you've been here, it's only for n- few months at a time for how many days?
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah. No, we're, I've, I've, I've, I have, I've spent winters out here. Uh, I like to surf and, um, I, I'm, and I'm, by the way, I'm, like, not a, I'm not, like, a pro, experienced, like, veteran motorcycle rider at all. I just enjoy it. And, like, out here, it's fun. You know, like, go up the Angeles Crest Road or something-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... pretty like that, you know? It's-
- JRJoe Rogan
I love driving up there.
- ENEdward Norton
Yeah, it's really-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ENEdward Norton
... it's really, it's cool. There's California. LA, LA is hard. No one likes the r- be- being on a motorcycle in LA sucks. It's, like, just hot and everybody's in your face. But, but the, you know, California is incredible. There's, there's, there's so much, there's so many amazing places to go in California, and um, and I kinda got hooked on it out here. Um-
Episode duration: 1:25:50
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