Joe Rogan Experience #1377 - Rick Baker

Joe Rogan 0:00 Here we go. On three, two, one. (claps) Rick Baker, ladies and gentlemen.

Rick Baker 0:04 Hey.

Joe Rogan 0:04 How are you, sir?

Rick Baker 0:05 Hey, I'm great, Joe. Everybody's been saying on my Instagram I should do this, uh, podcast for ages, so.

Joe Rogan 0:10 Well, I'm glad they listened or you listened-

Rick Baker 0:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:11 ... rather. I've, I've been a fan of yours forever, man. I was a huge Star Wars fan when I was a kid and you inspired me. When I was young, I really wanted to be a makeup artist. I wanted to do special effects and the kind of stuff that you do.

Rick Baker 0:23 Oh, I had no idea.

Joe Rogan 0:24 (laughs) Yeah, man. Um, uh, I think it was probably Star Wars that kicked it off for me 'cause I, like many kids... A l- a lot of people today, y- you know, we're so removed with first VHS and then DVDs and laser discs and now streaming, it's so easy to watch movies. But when Star Wars came out, we would go see it over and over and over again. It was like a little contest between a lot of the kids that I went to school with.

Rick Baker 0:47 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 0:47 I think I saw it 13 times-

Rick Baker 0:49 Wow.

Joe Rogan 0:49 ... while it was out in the movie theater.

Rick Baker 0:51 Wow.

Joe Rogan 0:51 But I became fascinated... I've always been fascinated with comic books. I always wanted to be a comic book illustrator. And I, I always loved, like, uh, l- like those fantasy novels, like, creepy and eerie-

Rick Baker 1:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04 ... you know, those, uh, those ill- graphic novels. But I really became fascinated with special effects and, um, particularly makeup after your work.

Rick Baker 1:14 Uh, well, you know, it was kind of the same thing for me. I mean, I, you know, I, I grew up in... I was born in 1950, you know, I grew up in front of a TV, but it was a little black and white one, you know, and, and, uh, there was always the monster movies on Saturdays, you know, and/or Sundays. And that, that just stuff just hit a chord with me and I just said, "I have to do this," you know.

Joe Rogan 1:32 When did you... What was the first thing that you did?

Rick Baker 1:35 First, first ever makeup kind of thing I did?

Joe Rogan 1:37 Yeah.

Rick Baker 1:37 Well, I mean, uh, you know, I was... I'm an only child. Uh, my mom wasn't supposed to have kids 'cause she had a bad heart and stuff. And, and, uh, but they wanted children. And, and, uh, but I was very shy. I, I'm, I stayed in my bedroom, I couldn't talk to an adult and stuff like that.

Joe Rogan 1:51 Yeah.

Rick Baker 1:52 And the very s- first thing I, you know, I, I got interested in makeup and I got some just white grease paint and black grease paint and smeared it on my face. And just with a layer of grease paint on my face when I was looking in the mirror, it wasn't, wasn't little Ricky Baker anymore. And I could do things that I couldn't do without this shit smeared on my face, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:11 Wow.

Rick Baker 2:11 And, uh, it just, it, it helped me overcome my shyness. But, I mean, it, it started with that. But, I mean, I, I... but I was, I wanted to do something more, you know, so I ended up making... I made my first mask, I think, when I was 13. Um, and it was, uh, Curse of Frankenstein, uh, Frankenstein. And I did that one mainly because I thought I could copy that one (laughs) and make it look close enough-

Joe Rogan 2:33 (laughs)

Rick Baker 2:33 ... 'cause it's, it's, uh, uh, there's some crudeness to that makeup. I've, uh, actually, at first didn't like it, but I, I like it now, you know. And, I mean, it's, uh, when you find out how the film industry works and, and poor Philip Leakey, who did that makeup, had, like, a week to prep, you know, and, and no money, so, it, I, I forgive some of the faults with it.

Joe Rogan 2:51 Well, it's cra- when you stop and think about the earliest versions of s- m- makeup in movies, like special effect style makeup in movies, you know, you go back to, like, Nosferatu is probably one of the very earliest, right? I mean, they really didn't have anything to go with. There wasn't anything to copy.

Rick Baker 3:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:08 They, they kind of had to make it up.

Rick Baker 3:09 Yeah. And, I mean, uh, the, you know, the thing is, uh, that Nosferatu is such a, I mean, it's a great film.

Joe Rogan 3:14 It's a great film.

Rick Baker 3:15 And, and-

Joe Rogan 3:15 Still to this day.

Rick Baker 3:16 Yeah. And, and the look, you know, I mean, it shouldn't work by all rights.

Joe Rogan 3:20 Right.

Rick Baker 3:20 You know, it's like a big hook nose, you know (laughs) and like, you know-

Joe Rogan 3:23 Yeah.

Rick Baker 3:23 Uh, but it works great. And, and, um, but, yeah, and same thing, I mean, Lon Chaney had n- nothing to work with, you know.

Joe Rogan 3:30 Right.

Rick Baker 3:30 He had spirit gum and, and cotton.

Joe Rogan 3:32 Yeah.

Rick Baker 3:32 And, and he did, to this day, some of the still the be- my favorite makeups and some of the best makeups. And I think the limitations in a lot of ways made the makeup work better. You know, I mean, y- now we can add so much stuff and I find that happens so much now, like, with that Face Off show and stuff.

Joe Rogan 3:48 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 3:49 People... it's more like, about how much can you pile on someone's face, you know? But sometimes the most effective makeups are just the tiniest little bit of things that you do and, and they let a lot of the humanity show through.

Joe Rogan 4:00 Like Lon Chaney in, uh, in Phantom of the Opera?

Rick Baker 4:04 Uh, great makeup.

Joe Rogan 4:05 Yeah.

Rick Baker 4:05 Yeah. That's a terrific... And Chaney was just w- brilliant anyways.

Joe Rogan 4:08 Yes.

Rick Baker 4:08 You know, and great at making scary faces. That's how I learned to make scary faces watching Chaney movies. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:13 Yeah.

Rick Baker 4:13 That's a-

Joe Rogan 4:13 He's another one. There's like, there was not much t- for him to go on. There wasn't... He was kind of like a pioneer.

Rick Baker 4:19 Yeah. Well-

Joe Rogan 4:19 I mean, for sure.

Rick Baker 4:20 ... and, uh, I mean, again, like I said, still some of my favorite makeups. That and, you know, Jack Pierce's Frankenstein's monster.

Joe Rogan 4:26 Yes.

Rick Baker 4:27 Again, crude materials, you know, uh, and he, uh, you know, it was... And, and, you know, poor Boris Karloff, what he had to endure. I mean, that isn't, is... none of the makeups he did on Boris were comfortable (laughs) you know? With cotton and spirit gum and collodion. Collodion, I don't know if you know, you might know what collodion is-

Joe Rogan 4:44 No.

Rick Baker 4:44 ... 'cause of your fight background kind of stuff, but it's a, a plastic, they used to use it to close up, uh, boxers wounds and stuff.

Joe Rogan 4:51 Oh.

Rick Baker 4:52 Um, it's, like, kind of this liquid plastic, but it smells horrible and, you know, to be working around someone's eyes with these fumes and stuff. And, uh, yeah, I mean, he had to put up with a lot.

Joe Rogan 5:01 So it's kind of like a glue?

Rick Baker 5:03 Yeah, it's a kind of a liquidy plasticky stuff.

Joe Rogan 5:05 Can you pull up a video of, uh, Nosferatu? What year was that?

Rick Baker 5:09 20... I don't know what.

Joe Rogan 5:10 '22. 1922.

Rick Baker 5:12 '22.

Joe Rogan 5:12 That's crazy.

Rick Baker 5:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:13 You stop and think about that, you know, film itself had only been how old then?

Rick Baker 5:18 Yeah. Not very (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 5:19 Not very.

Rick Baker 5:19 You know, but yeah, it's-

Joe Rogan 5:20 See if you can get a video of it.

Rick Baker 5:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:23 His, uh, it just... the whole thing about the way he moved, like, everything, it was so creepy and interesting.

Rick Baker 5:29 Well, and the whole film, I mean-

Joe Rogan 5:30 Yeah.

Rick Baker 5:30 ... just beautifully shot. I mean, so many of the silent films, I mean, the photography is so incredible, you know.

Joe Rogan 5:35 I mean, I wonder how, what they did with the fingers. Like, how'd they get his fingers?

Rick Baker 5:39 Well, those... I think those are just his hands at this point, you know. I mean, later, I mean, in, in, like, the, um, John Barrymore, uh, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

Joe Rogan 5:47 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 5:48 Uh, you know, they, uh... I remember reading in Famous Monsters, which was again, my, like, my Bible, you know.

Joe Rogan 5:53 Right.

Rick Baker 5:53 Did, did you get Famous Monsters at all? Or you-

Joe Rogan 5:55 Yes. Yeah, yeah, I did.

Rick Baker 5:56 Oh, yeah. You said creepy area and all that.

Joe Rogan 5:57 Yeah. Sure.

Rick Baker 5:58 Um, you know, they, they said, you know, John Barrymore did the whole transformation without makeup, you know, and it's not true.

Joe Rogan 6:04 (laughs)

Rick Baker 6:05 You know, he's got finger extensions on.

Joe Rogan 6:06 Right.

Rick Baker 6:06 He's got, like, a pointed back of a head, you know, and stuff.

Joe Rogan 6:10 Yeah.

Rick Baker 6:10 Uh-But yeah, it's, uh, uh, Nos4a2, brilliant. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:14 So what did they do for his ears? Do you know?

Rick Baker 6:16 Well, I'm not sure what they're made out of, same with the bald head. I mean, uh, I know r- rubber existed then. I mean, you can kinda s-... I mean, he's got... I, I think it's probably just like a slip rubber, which is like a, you know, Hall- what we... Halloween masks are made out of-

Joe Rogan 6:28 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 6:29 ... uh, ears and, and bald head and nose, you know.

Joe Rogan 6:31 Yeah, some sort of prosthetic nose, right?

Rick Baker 6:33 Yeah, and those big pointy teeth. But again, I mean, if you, if you really kinda analyze it and look at it, you think, "This is stupid. It'll never work." (laughs) You know? And, but it works great. And I also think it's because Max Schreck was great, you know?

Joe Rogan 6:45 Yeah.

Rick Baker 6:45 He does some really cool things with his hands and stuff. Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 6:48 Well, if you didn't... If nothing like this existed, and it was dark out, and you saw a guy like that in your house, you would freak out.

Rick Baker 6:53 Well, you know, th- I'd freak out just-

Joe Rogan 6:54 I mean, that's terrifying looking.

Rick Baker 6:55 ... if I saw somebody in my house anyway. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:58 (laughs)

Rick Baker 6:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:58 Yeah, someone smiling would freak you out.

Rick Baker 6:59 Ye- yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:00 Yeah. It's just... It's such a, an, an interesting time capsule when you look at these films and you look at something like, like Nosferatu from 1922, and then you look at what we're doing today with CGI, in a lot of ways... I, I mean, I'm not a fan of CGI. I'm not a fan of it in terms of, uh, like for monsters, mons... It just seems... Everything seems fake. There's... The suspension of disbelief is higher than if I'm like... What you did with American Werewolf in London, what... One of... One of the more brilliant things about it was the special effects and the makeup were g- fantastic, but they were these really quick scenes. It was like you saw it for a sec, and then it was burned into your eyes.

Rick Baker 7:39 Mm.

Joe Rogan 7:39 And then, and then it vanished.

Rick Baker 7:40 Yeah. Well, th- what John Landis said to me is that, "I'm n- I'm never gonna really show the werewolf for more than a couple seconds."

Joe Rogan 7:46 Mm.

Rick Baker 7:47 And I hardly even wanna show it thin, you know?

Joe Rogan 7:49 Right.

Rick Baker 7:49 And what was great about Werewolf, working on that film with John Landis, was he, you know, said, "You're the expert. Th- I want a four-legged hound from hell." I wanted to make a biped werewolf, you know? We argued about it, and, you know, it was basically, you know, he wins. He's the director, you know? But he says, "Four-legged hound from hell. Make it," and I did. I mean, the first sculpture was what the final thing became. Same with everything in it, the Nazi demons, all that stuff.

Joe Rogan 8:11 Mm.

Rick Baker 8:12 You know, cut to, you know, like when I did the Wolf Man, I mean, I did thousands of designs. And, and, you know, all these producers are going, "Well, maybe if you do one between this and that, and do-

Joe Rogan 8:21 Mm.

Rick Baker 8:21 ... one between this and that, and... Or maybe this pore should be over here." You know?

Joe Rogan 8:25 Oof.

Rick Baker 8:25 And that kind of stuff just is so soul-sucking, you know?

Joe Rogan 8:28 Yeah.

Rick Baker 8:28 And it's one of the reasons I retired, you know? I just... And, but to this day, I mean, like, on the, on the cover of my, my book is, uh, uh, the sculpture from, uh, of the, one of the Nazi demons from American Werewolf. And, and a number of people said, "This is, like, one of the greatest designs ever," you know, this kind of stuff. And it's, uh, people who are production designers and stuff. And it was... It's pure Rick Baker without interference, you know?

Joe Rogan 8:52 Right.

Rick Baker 8:52 And, and that's what I thought the industry would be, you know?

Joe Rogan 8:55 Right.

Rick Baker 8:56 Which it isn't (laughs) for the most part, you know?

Joe Rogan 8:58 Well, it's just everybody wants to... It's the same with comedy. It's the same with... It seems like it's the same with everything. Everybody wants to put their greasy little fingerprints on it-

Rick Baker 9:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:05 ... and, and say, "That's... The reason why his nose is like that was me."

Rick Baker 9:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:08 "I, I told Rick Baker, 'You don't know what you're doing.'

Rick Baker 9:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:10 "You gotta make the nose wider."

Rick Baker 9:11 Yeah. No, I know.

Joe Rogan 9:12 Yeah. That's... Ugh.

Rick Baker 9:13 And it's, you know, it's watered, watered down, the designs, you know?

Joe Rogan 9:17 Yeah.

Rick Baker 9:17 Like I said, it's soul-suckinging. I mean, if... And when... You know, you know, uh, sculptures take a long time, and, you know, you s- we sculpt every pore and every wrinkle and everything. You know, I have, like, magnifying glasses I wear when I'm doing this. And after you spend, you know, hours and, and sleepless nights doing it, and then some guy who doesn't know what he's talking about comes in and says, "Well, you know, why don't you do this?"

Joe Rogan 9:34 Right.

Rick Baker 9:34 You know? It's like-

Joe Rogan 9:34 Well, they're disturbing your artistic vision, and it's just... It's, it's, uh, I mean, when someone contributes money, and they're the ones who get to decide whether things get made or not made, you know, just... They think they're artistic as well.

Rick Baker 9:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:47 It becomes a disaster.

Rick Baker 9:48 And it's the thing, you know. I mean, when you see a movie or a TV show now, there's 47 producers on everything.

Joe Rogan 9:53 Yeah.

Rick Baker 9:53 You know? It used to be they were show people.

Joe Rogan 9:55 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 9:55 And there was a guy... You know, for example, on Gremlins 2, Mike Finnell, who was the producer, uh, uh, who came from Roger Corman, uh, school of filmmaking, you know? So he really checks every penny.

Joe Rogan 10:07 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 10:08 And, but he was a guy I could go to, and he'd go... What... He, he would look at everything and go, "Why is it... Why is this... Why are you buying this?" And you'd g- explain it to him, and he'd go, "Okay, that makes sense." And there'd be a person you could talk to and you could get an answer from. It... Now, there's, like I said, 47 producers, and nobody will commit to anything, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:27 Yeah.

Rick Baker 10:27 And then it's, it's... It drove me crazy. And, you know, I mean, I, I... It was... I, I did makeup because I loved it. And I, I was... I feel so fortunate that my hobby became my profession, and that it did well and got awards for it and stuff. And for something I would do for free, you know? But it got to the point where I, I, I was just becoming a bitter old man because of all this. And I just said-

Joe Rogan 10:48 Yeah.

Rick Baker 10:49 ... "I have to retire, and I wanna make things for myself while I still can." You know?

Joe Rogan 10:53 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 10:53 I'm almost 69 years old, and, you know, I'm having trouble with joints and (laughs) vision-

Joe Rogan 10:59 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 10:59 ... and all kinds of stuff, you know? And, and I, I'd be pissed off if I was working on some movie for some producer that w- didn't know what he was talking about and, and screwed up my work, you know?

Joe Rogan 11:08 Right.

Rick Baker 11:09 So it's time-

Joe Rogan 11:09 And messed your head. Yeah.

Rick Baker 11:10 Yeah. So it's time to just, you know, make my own thing. And I'm l- I'm loving it, you know?

Joe Rogan 11:14 Like, what kind of stuff are you doing now?

Rick Baker 11:15 Oh, I do all kinds of stuff. I mean, I, I, I still do makeups, you know, for fun. Um, I've actually cast up some of my... I, I saved a lot of the molds. I cast up some of the old Star Wars stuff out of the molds and, and, and stuff. And, uh, uh, I do animations. I, I, I, uh, make models. I, I make little movies. I paint.

Joe Rogan 11:33 But you're just doing it purely for the joy of it now?

Rick Baker 11:35 Painting and sculpting. It's just like it was when I was a kid. You know-

Joe Rogan 11:37 Oh, that's awesome.

Rick Baker 11:38 ... my, my, my bedroom was my wor- my workshop, you know? I, I, um... And it... You know, I'm surprised I'm still alive. You know, I was... I had a, uh, a bunch of toxic chemicals (laughs) in the same room that I slept, you know? (laughs) And, uh, but it's... You know, it's what I've done since I was a kid. It's how I have fun. It's how I entertain myself, you know? And, and, uh, like I said on my Instagram, everybody's going, you know, "I thought you retired?" And I said, "I retired from the film industry. I didn't retire from being a creative guy." I mean-

Joe Rogan 12:06 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 12:06 ... this is who I am. This is what I do.It's how I have fun.

Joe Rogan 12:09 That's awesome. You know, as- as much as the process was probably annoying with The Wolf Man, the end result was cool.

Rick Baker 12:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:15 I really loved how you did it and you made it old school. It was kind of like l- almost like the original Wolf Man, but like re- you know, redone.

Rick Baker 12:22 Yeah. Well, I was... You know, I'm a fan, you know?

Joe Rogan 12:24 Yes.

Rick Baker 12:24 And- and, you know, and I think it's... I think that too. I mean, people who love what they're doing and come at it from a fanboy, uh, point of view, you know, it's- it... And it's something I think that producers don't understand because they're all about making as much money as they can, and they think everybody's trying to cheat them out of money and stuff, you know?

Joe Rogan 12:41 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 12:41 It's like there's so many times I- I would say, you know, "Why did you hire me?" You know? Be- if you don't... "You're not letting me do what I do." You know?

Joe Rogan 12:47 Right.

Rick Baker 12:48 And it's like, "Well, you're the best." And I go, "Well, let me do what I do."

Joe Rogan 12:50 Let me be the best, yeah.

Rick Baker 12:51 Have some faith, you know?

Joe Rogan 12:52 Trust me.

Rick Baker 12:52 I mean, you're making it so I can't. And The Wolf Man was a case like that. I mean, it was a battle through the whole thing, and that was one of these things with thousands of designs and changed this one little thing.

Joe Rogan 13:02 Yeah.

Rick Baker 13:02 But I thought that... You know, in the end, the original director left right before we started filming. They brought somebody else in, and I just said, "We don't have an approved design. I'm making what I thought I should make seven months ago. I did a test on myself that basically looked like that. Uh, we don't have time to screw around. The new director isn't gonna have a choice," which I don't think he was really happy about. But in the end, I mean, I thought, you know, that the movie was the closest thing to an old school horror movie in a long time, you know?

Joe Rogan 13:27 It was, but it also had the feel like a lot of people fucked with it. It felt like it was missing an individual or singular vision.

Rick Baker 13:34 Well, it's every movie now (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 13:36 Yes. Oh God, that's so frustrating to hear. Well, I think Tar- Tarantino still pulls it off.

Rick Baker 13:40 Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, he's-

Joe Rogan 13:41 He's one of the rare guys that still... You- you watch a movie and you go, "Jesus Christ." Like, the shit that he gets away with, that's a Tarantino movie.

Rick Baker 13:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:48 Like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

Rick Baker 13:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:49 That is a Tarantino movie.

Rick Baker 13:51 Oh, yes.

Joe Rogan 13:52 Like, there's no... Like, if you told... If I saw that movie and you said, "Who made that movie?" I'd be, "Fucking Tarantino made that movie."

Rick Baker 13:57 (laughs) Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:58 If they didn't, they're going to jail.

Rick Baker 13:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:59 It's like that's... He's just... He gets away with so much, and his movies seem like his movies.

Rick Baker 14:05 And he's a fanboy, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 14:07 Yes.

Rick Baker 14:07 And he's- he knows movies really well.

Joe Rogan 14:09 Yes.

Rick Baker 14:09 And- and- and no, I mean, thank God for him, you know? I mean, I really enjoy his films.

Joe Rogan 14:12 Me too.

Rick Baker 14:13 I met Quentin... I was at a film festival in Sitges, Spain. It's a science fiction and fantasy film festival. I was a guest, and, um, I- I was there. I- that's where I met Peter Jackson. We actually... Uh, he sat next to me at- at a screening, and we became friends. And- and, uh, he had his movie Braindead. Have you ever seen that? Uh-

Joe Rogan 14:31 No.

Rick Baker 14:32 Oh, it's really good.

Joe Rogan 14:33 Yeah?

Rick Baker 14:33 It's really fun. It's really gory, but funny gory, um, and really clever. Um, the... But anyways-

Joe Rogan 14:39 When did he make that?

Rick Baker 14:40 Well, this was like in the 90s or something, I guess. I- I- I'm s- real bad with dates, you know. But anyways, we were sitting and talking and- and Freddie Francis, who was a- a director and a director of photography for... Did a lot of hammer movies, and- and Stuart Freeborn was there. And we're sitting in this thing, and there was this big kind of goofy kid walking around, you know, and- and I thought he was just like a fan. So I said, "Come on over and sit down with us," you know. We started talking, and I go, "What are you doing here?" And- and, you know, he was obviously like an American, and he goes, "I have a film here," you know, and it was Reservoir Dogs.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Ah.

Rick Baker 15:09 And- and we went to see it, and I actually left in the scene where they're torturing the cop. It's funny, people think I like gory- gory stuff, you know-

Joe Rogan 15:19 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 15:19 ... 'cause I've done it in films, but real stuff, and if it's really intensely done on a film like that was-

Joe Rogan 15:25 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 15:25 I mean, I thought he was gonna let this guy- light this guy on fire, that... He's- where he's got the cop in a chair at one point, and I said, "I can't. I don't wanna see this." So I left and so did Wes Craven.

Joe Rogan 15:36 What?

Rick Baker 15:36 And yeah, and we went, uh-

Joe Rogan 15:38 (laughs)

Rick Baker 15:38 And he got so jazzed by that, you know. Uh-

Joe Rogan 15:42 That he got you guys to get out of there?

Rick Baker 15:43 He goes, "Wes Craven couldn't take my movie and Rick Baker couldn't take my movie. It's so cool." You know (laughs) , you know, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 15:50 (laughs) That's awesome.

Rick Baker 15:50 Oh, no. It was- it was... And that was a great thing. I mean, like I said, I- uh, this was my introduction to Peter, uh, Peter Jackson, and we became fast friends. We kind of had the same background. And it's like you- l- what you said to me about wanting to be a makeup artist and being those things. I know so many people like that, you know.

Joe Rogan 16:06 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 16:06 Uh, you know, Danny Elfman was- said that to me.

Joe Rogan 16:09 Oh, really?

Rick Baker 16:09 Yeah. Uh, John Fogerty likes that- like that's-

Joe Rogan 16:12 John Fogerty?

Rick Baker 16:12 Yeah, you know. He's like-

Joe Rogan 16:13 Oh, wow.

Rick Baker 16:13 I don't know that he wanted to be a makeup artist, but he really likes- liked that stuff, you know.

Joe Rogan 16:16 Oh, yeah.

Rick Baker 16:17 Um, uh, Slash, you know, a lot of th- a lot of these different people, you know, and they went into rock and roll instead of that, you know. And, um, but, you know, I- I never veered off that path. I mean, from- uh, from age 10, this is what I wanted to do, and I didn't have a plan B. And fortunately, it worked because I- I grew up very lower middle class. And I wasn't in the- didn't know anybody in the film industry, you know. And when I finally met somebody, I was, um, 13, uh, and Universal Studios just started their

Rick Baker 16:47 tours. And I talked my parents, they said, "You know, you're gonna be a teenager. It's a special birthday. You know, what can we do?" You know. And I said, uh, "Can we go to Universal, on the Universal tour?" You know, and in my head, I was gonna hop off the tram and run into the makeup department and they were gonna hire me, you know?

Joe Rogan 17:03 (laughs)

Rick Baker 17:03 And, but on the way, I knew that, um... Are you familiar with Don Post's masks, the Don Post Studios? They did the Universal Classic Monster Masks that were in the back of Famous Monsters and stuff.

Joe Rogan 17:15 Okay.

Rick Baker 17:15 Uh, but they did these really high-quality masks that were like 35 dollars in the 60s, which was way beyond anything I could ever afford.

Joe Rogan 17:22 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 17:22 But everybody, every kid, monster kid coveted those masks, you know. And he, uh, his studio was in Burbank, near Universal, and I had seen him on TV talking about how he was buying Universal. So when we got close, I asked my dad if he could maybe look in the phone book and maybe call up Don Post and we could go visit, and they were very gracious. You know, my dad had said, "You know, my son Ricky likes monsters and he makes masks, and we're in close by. Can you come by?" And they said, "Sure," you know, and gave me the whole tour.

Joe Rogan 17:52 Wow.

Rick Baker 17:52 Yeah. And on the wall, uh, in Don Post Studios was a picture of Bob Burns, who I'd read about in my monster magazines. He- he's a collector and he- he's done some makeup. He had a mummy suit and a, uh, gorilla suit that he made, and- and it had his phone number, and I wrote it down. And, uh-... I, again, being I was still pretty shy and I got my dad to call this guy who I read about in monster magazines. And he was the first guy I ever met in any, anywhere r- related to the industry. And again, very... Bob and Kathy, you know, welcomed me into their home. He told me, you know, showed me how to do a scar out of a, cut out of mortician's wax and where to get the stuff at Max Factor. And, and it just was like one of the first people to show me stuff. And he worked at the local CBS station and introduced me to the news, the guy who did the newsmen, uh, the makeup artist who made up the newscasters. And he was like blown away by the stuff that I did. And he goes, "I'm gonna take you to the makeup union." And I was like 15 at this point. And so I went to the makeup union with a box full of heads and masks and make, pictures of makeups I did. Again, naïve, uh, thinking that they were gonna say, "Start tomorrow-

Joe Rogan 19:03 (laughs)

Rick Baker 19:03 ... you can get a job." And the business rep of the union said, you know, "Give up, kid. You're never gonna get in." Uh, uh, you know, that you have to be born into the industry. It was a real... At, at that time-

Joe Rogan 19:14 Really?

Rick Baker 19:14 ... at that time, there was a lot of nepotism. I mean, there's still nepotism.

Joe Rogan 19:16 That bad?

Rick Baker 19:17 Yeah. But he says, you know, if you were a Westmore, you know, you would get a, a union card with your birth certificate, you know.

Joe Rogan 19:24 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 19:24 But, but nobody knows, you don't know anybody. You're, you're not... He said, "First of all, you have to be 21 to serve an apprenticeship." I was 15. He said, "There's gonna, there's only a few apprenticeships and they're gonna go to a Westmore or to a, a Bower or, uh, uh, you know, somebody who was a, a name makeup artist or-

Joe Rogan 19:42 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 19:42 ... a relative of one of those.

Joe Rogan 19:43 Right.

Rick Baker 19:43 And he also said the kind of makeups that I wanted to do, which were monsters and weird stuff, he say, he said, "Those jobs are few and far between and most of the time, you're gonna be mopping sweat off of some bitchy actress."

Joe Rogan 19:54 Hmm.

Rick Baker 19:55 And it was kind of like-

Joe Rogan 19:56 Trying to crush your dreams.

Rick Baker 19:57 Well, he kind of... It kind of did, but it also was like, "You know what? Fuck you. I'm gonna show you."

Joe Rogan 20:02 Yes.

Rick Baker 20:02 You know? And, uh, and I did. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:04 You definitely did. I mean, boy, was he wrong.

Rick Baker 20:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:07 You turned out to be the greatest of all time.

Rick Baker 20:09 Uh, well, I don't know about that. I think Dick Smith is the greatest of all time, but, uh...

Joe Rogan 20:12 Well, you have to think that. (laughs)

Rick Baker 20:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:15 Now-

Rick Baker 20:15 I can't believe you didn't get the book.

Joe Rogan 20:17 Ah, I'm sorry.

Rick Baker 20:18 Uh, I'm gonna make sure you get it.

Joe Rogan 20:19 I didn't get me a book.

Rick Baker 20:19 Well, there's a, there's a picture of me at, at-

Joe Rogan 20:20 Wow.

Rick Baker 20:21 That was from a newspaper article in my local newspaper when I, I think I was a sophomore in high school. And that was the first time they called me Rick Baker Monster Maker and-

Joe Rogan 20:32 Ah.

Rick Baker 20:33 ... um, yeah. That was-

Joe Rogan 20:34 That's from high school?

Rick Baker 20:35 That was, yeah. I always think I was the third... No, I must have been like 14 or 15 or 16, something like that.

Joe Rogan 20:41 Wow, man. You were committed to the path.

Rick Baker 20:43 Oh, I mean, my bedroom had... It was all masks and, you know, the Rora... Did you ever do the Rora model kits?

Joe Rogan 20:49 Yes, I did. Yeah.

Rick Baker 20:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had... I mean, that was one of the big regrets that, uh, when I, I got married, uh, I thought, "Well, I gotta-"

Joe Rogan 20:57 Grow up.

Rick Baker 20:58 Yeah, you know.

Joe Rogan 20:59 Get rid of the models.

Rick Baker 20:59 Which I got rid of the models and-

Joe Rogan 21:01 Oh.

Rick Baker 21:01 ... and I've regretted it ever since. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:03 Those were so cool. You could paint them.

Rick Baker 21:04 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:05 I remember those. I think I had a, I think I had a Creature from the Black Lagoon one.

Rick Baker 21:09 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:09 Did they make a Creature from the Black Lagoon?

Rick Baker 21:10 Oh, yeah, they did. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:11 Yeah, that was, that was an interesting film, right? Because that was a, that was a unique turn on makeup where they took this guy and they kind of put him in sort of like a scuba suit/reptilian thing. That was one of the cooler makeup-

Rick Baker 21:24 Well, it's still-

Joe Rogan 21:24 ... works for the time.

Rick Baker 21:25 It still is.

Joe Rogan 21:25 Yeah.

Rick Baker 21:25 It's still one of the best man in a suit.

Joe Rogan 21:27 Yeah.

Rick Baker 21:28 You know, really well done.

Joe Rogan 21:29 Pull that up, Jamie. Creature from the Black Lagoon. That was like, what was it, 50s?

Rick Baker 21:33 Yeah. And it, that was the Westmore regime. Uh, Jack Pierce, who did Frankenstein, The Wolf Man, all the classic stuff, was, used old school techniques during a time when other people were doing foam rubber.

Joe Rogan 21:46 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 21:47 And a new regime came in at Universal and all of a sudden, Jack got a pink slip. You know, "You're, you're out." You know, these movies-

Joe Rogan 21:53 There it is.

Rick Baker 21:53 Yeah. Very cool. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:55 Go, go with the larger one on the lower left corner, Jamie, where you see the whole body. Yeah.

Rick Baker 21:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:59 I mean, what a cool design.

Rick Baker 22:01 It is. And it was designed by a woman, uh, Milicent Patrick, who-

Joe Rogan 22:06 She nailed it.

Rick Baker 22:06 She did, but she didn't get a lot of... You know, I mean, Bud Westmore's regime got the credit for it. And-

Joe Rogan 22:11 Ah.

Rick Baker 22:12 But when the movie came out, when some-

Joe Rogan 22:13 Look at that.

Rick Baker 22:14 Yeah. When some publicist found out that a woman designed it, it was... They did a whole kind of Beauty and the Beast campaign.

Joe Rogan 22:20 (laughs)

Rick Baker 22:21 And apparently Bud Westmore was furious. You know, he goes, "That's my work. It's..." You know.

Joe Rogan 22:24 Oh, no.

Rick Baker 22:25 And he was, he was, uh, famous for posing with other people's stuff. You know, I mean, uh, a very fine sculptor named Chris Mueller sculpted the, the creature's head anyways, and I think he did the abdomen and some of the parts. And, and he also, uh, sculpted the Melanoma Mutant from the Silent Earth. You know, the big brain kind of thing.

Joe Rogan 22:41 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Rick Baker 22:42 And, uh, there's a, there's some pictures of Bud Westmore holding a really inappropriate sculpture tool next to the sculptures.

Joe Rogan 22:49 Oh, no.

Rick Baker 22:50 And from what I heard, he would, uh, whenever the publicist would come to take pictures, he'd give everybody a day off or the afternoon off, and then he would go up to the lab and pose with that stuff, you know.

Joe Rogan 22:59 Oh, Christ.

Rick Baker 22:59 Yeah. I went to-

Joe Rogan 23:00 I hate hearing stories like that.

Rick Baker 23:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:01 It's so disappointing. You know, when you want to think that all these people who take credit for all that work, they did the work.

Rick Baker 23:08 Yeah. And, and I tried to do that. And it's funny because, you know, so many people... I mean, I never wanted to be a businessman, you know.

Joe Rogan 23:15 Right.

Rick Baker 23:15 And, and I never even thought about that aspect of it, you know, that I'd have to have employees and all that, you know.

Joe Rogan 23:20 Me neither.

Rick Baker 23:20 And I hated that part.

Joe Rogan 23:21 (laughs)

Rick Baker 23:22 And I mean, that was something I didn't care for, you know, and I resisted being a businessman. I didn't have... I wasn't listed anywhere. My company wasn't listed. I didn't have a letterhead. I didn't have business cards. How the hell... I, I don't have, didn't have an agent, you know. How the hell I ever was successful, I don't know, other than the fact that I worked hard and my work was pretty good.

Joe Rogan 23:42 Mm.

Rick Baker 23:42 You know? But yeah, it's, uh... Fortunately, it all worked out for me, like I said.

Joe Rogan 23:47 Certainly did. What was your first gig? Like, what was the first-

Rick Baker 23:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:50 ... first professional gig that you got where it was like, "Holy shit, I'm getting paid to do makeup."

Rick Baker 23:56 Well, I mean, the first time I ever got paid, actually, I think I did a makeup for a stage actor who wanted to be old. And, uh, I charged him $75 and, um-... which was, you know, more money than I ever gotten from anything before (laughs) . You know, like I said- You just came up with a number in your head? Yeah. Well, I kind of somehow figured it out (laughs) , you know. But, uh, anyways, I, I, I did these pieces for him and, uh, he lived, uh, off that Pasadena freeway, that one that has a weird right angled, uh, uh, off-ramps, you know. And my dad drove me there 'cause I couldn't... I didn't drive at the time. And, and he actually had a makeup kit and had some hair pieces in it and a bunch of stuff. And he said, "You know, I will trade you this. Instead of giving you the $75, I'll give you this makeup case and with... full of this stuff." And I was like, "Yeah, that's really cool," you know. But my dad wanted to teach me, you know, responsibilities and stuff. And this was around the time I, uh, I think I was like 16 and was gonna try to drive. And he goes, "Your... My insurance is gonna go up and what you have to do is you have to get that money and you have to give me the money to... for the rate of the insurance that's going up." I was like, "Oh man, I really want this makeup kit," you know? (laughs) But, but I mean, I had amazing parents who... I mean, I wouldn't have been... I wouldn't be who I am if it wasn't for them. I mean, they- That's cool. ... they supported me, uh, in my crazy decision to, to make monsters for a living. Well, they must've been so happy when it paid off, though. Yeah. I was glad that they lived long enough to see that and I got to bring my parents to the Oscars a few times. Oh, wow. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, they were, they were very proud. And, and, uh, and you know, it was funny 'cause I mean, I had like, my mom's, uh, brother and my uncle would, you know, say stuff like, you know, "When is Ricky gonna stop doing this silly stuff and do something he can make a living at?" You know? "And when is he gonna grow up?" Oh, those people. Yeah. Oh, those people. But, you know, my dad- Ugh. ... basically never grew up and I knew I never was going to, you know. I- What was your dad... What did he do for a living? Well, he did a bunch of different things. He, he was a high school dropout because he, he had to help his family, his, his mother and father, you know, pay bills. And he had a variety of not very good jobs. He worked at Sears as a salesman, he drove a truck, he did stuff. But he was always... He, he was very creative and it was kind of held down in his lifetime, you know, "Don't do that. You can't- Right. ... you know, do something you can make a living at." You need to be serious. And because of that, I benefited from that. Yeah. He supported the creativity. And when I, um... I think I was a sophomore in high school, he decided he wanted to try to make a living as an artist. And we lived on my mom's bank teller salary for a, a number of years. He hardly made any money at all. Um, but he was happy, you know. And, and he, uh, uh, becau- I mean, like I said, he, he supported my creativity and he was really my first teacher. He, he sh- showed me what you could do with paint, he knew a little bit about sculpture, you know. Uh, he, uh, he was also a fan of monster movies, you know, and he- Mm. ... you know, he saw, you know, the Frederick March Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde when it came out, you know, and told me all about it. And that was a movie that they didn't have on TV that I really wanted to see- Mm. ... you know? And he said, uh, when he saw it i- in the theaters, you know, he would h- hide his eyes or hide by the seat, you know, and I so wanted to see that. And, and he also said, you know War of the Worlds, the, uh, George Pal- Oh, yeah. ... you know, going, "That was so cool," and then the sound effects were great and, and our... That was never on either. And when I was in the seventh grade, I think it was, I, uh, decided to get on the student council for... The main reason this was my plan was, uh, I suggested that we could raise money for the school by having... showing movies after school. We could rent 16 miller movie... 16-millimeter movies and show them and charge admission. And I basically just subs- went through all the movies I hadn't seen that I wanted to see- (laughs) ... and, and got those, you know. And there were maybe four or five people that showed up to see them, but I was happy, you know. Oh, that's awesome. So, yeah. What was the first film that you did special effects for? First film was a film called The Octoman and it's kind of a cult classic because it's such a crappy movie (laughs) , you know. It was shot in 10 days, uh, at, at... all at Bronson Canyon, uh, in, in, in Griffith Park. Yeah. What year was this? Uh, nine... Let's see. I graduated from high school in 1969 and I went to... two years to a junior college. Uh, '69, '70, '71, uh, I guess it was, so- So you went from that to Star Wars only like five or six years later, right? Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. And King Kong and, and all, all this other stuff we did. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Played... There's the Octoman. (laughs) The Octoman. (laughs) I didn't design it. Oh my goodness. Look at that thing. I, I... Yeah. But I mean, this was... I was a full-time student, I had six weeks- (laughs) ... and like, I think $1,000 to make this suit. And, uh, so I... after school, uh, I, I... and I got my... a friend... The very first job I ever had... Actually this... and this, again, happened because of my dad. When he was a truck driver, uh, delivering plumbing supplies, uh, he went to the wrong building and the building he went into was, uh, called Clokey Productions and they made Gumby and Davey and Goliath, stop-motion animation. Mm. Which I did stop-motion as well. Big Ray Harryhausen fan, you know. Um, and for some reason... I grew up in Covina, which is east of Hol- you know, LA, like 30 or 40 miles, and wasn't... and there wasn't anything film-related out there, but for some reason, Clokey's was out there, um, I think because it was cheaper rent. And he... uh, I, I was... my... on my quarter a week allowance when I found a place I could buy rubber, it was like eight... almost $9 for a quart of rubber and, you know, took me a lot of weeks and a lot of mowing lawns and a lot of stuff to save up that money. And I said, "I need a... I need a job." So I, I didn't have a car, we only had one car in the family and, uh, you know, I went to any place I could walk to, uh, supermarkets, you know, bus boys, all that stuff. Nobody wanted me and, um, my dad said, "Oh, I remember this place and it did stop-motion and you do stop-motion, you know, maybe." So I went there with my box of stuff, you know, (laughs) and, and it was summer vacation between my junior and senior year of high school and they said, "Start tomorrow." Uh, got paid minimum wage which I think was, you know, $1.25 or something at the time. But that place was like a magnet for any weird kid or any guy that was like a stop-motion fan. Any stop-motion person would show up there at one point or another and I met this guy named Doug Beswick who was a few years older than me.... and we became, again, fast friends. You know, he read Famous Monsters. He was a Ray Harryhausen fan. And Doug, uh, when I did this uh, this uh, Octoman film, Doug had a, uh, a little workshop and we did it in his workshop, and we did it together.

Joe Rogan 30:32 Wow.

Rick Baker 30:33 But yeah, it was a... Uh, and- and it was a real introduction to the film industry because it was the very first days filming, I'm filming in Gr- in Bronson Canyon, Griffith Park. Uh, we show up, we went in Doug's 57 Chevy, it had Octoman in the backseat, you know?

Joe Rogan 30:46 (laughs)

Rick Baker 30:46 And, and we show up there, uh, and looking around and there's nobody there. And I go, "What the hell?" You know? So, and this is, you know, before cellphones and all that shit. Uh, so we'd have to go, we went back down the hill, uh, down Bronson Canyon to, like there was a market there and we got a payphone, called the production office and it was like, "Oh yeah, uh, we pushed one day. We just forgot to tell you," you know?

Joe Rogan 31:08 (laughs)

Rick Baker 31:08 And it's like a movie called The Octoman, you forgot to tell the people who were making The Octoman, the title character of the movie, that you weren't filming? (laughs) You know?

Joe Rogan 31:18 Yes. (laughs)

Rick Baker 31:18 And it was also... I mean, they-

Joe Rogan 31:20 That's a perfect introduction to the movie industry, though.

Rick Baker 31:22 Oh, it was. And- and I learned that- that, you know, you can't believe anything they tell you. You know?

Joe Rogan 31:27 (laughs)

Rick Baker 31:27 I mean, the- it was designed by somebody else and, uh, I got this job handed down through people I met at Clohies. Uh, it was gonna be stop motion at one point. They decided that that was too expensive, they're gonna make a suit. And the first thing I did was a little maquette. And, uh, um-

Joe Rogan 31:41 A little what?

Rick Baker 31:42 Maquette. A sc- uh, a small sculpture of the design. But I said there's... Because he had, they- they tried to figure out how they could do eight tentacles on a man, you know?

Joe Rogan 31:50 Mm.

Rick Baker 31:50 And his feet kind of like turned into tentacles, and it kind of split off in- into a back tentacle. But I said, "I think they look like elf shoes." And it-

Joe Rogan 31:58 Ah.

Rick Baker 31:58 ... and it's not a good f- way for me to join the two things together. And, and it's like, "Kid, don't worry about it. There's only gonna be one shot of The Octoman in the movie where you actually see it. The rest of the time he's just gonna be a shadow or a glimpse, you know? But we'll have a money shot where you can, you know, make sure it looks great." (laughs) And the movie starts out with a closeup of his feet, you know? Basically, you know.

Joe Rogan 32:18 (laughs)

Rick Baker 32:18 Uh, and- and, you know, it was, uh, it was a real introduction. I- I thought it was gonna be like working on eight millimeter, millimeter movies like I did as a kid.

Joe Rogan 32:28 Right.

Rick Baker 32:28 You know, everybody just jumps in and we're, "We're making a movie, let's do it." You know?

Joe Rogan 32:32 Right.

Rick Baker 32:32 Yeah. It wasn't that. And the DP, the director of photography, because I had long hair and Doug had long hair, he called us the girls. This was at a time when, you know, long hair was-

Joe Rogan 32:42 Oh, right.

Rick Baker 32:42 You know, "Get the girls to get their silly monster suit out," and you know... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:47 Oh, right.

Rick Baker 32:47 Uh, but we, there was a, uh, if you can believe this, there's... Uh, uh, The Octoman was written by the guy that, was the writer of Creature from the Black Lagoon, and he also wrote, uh, It Came from Outer Space.

Joe Rogan 33:00 Ah.

Rick Baker 33:01 So, it was basically those two scripts combined with evolu- uh, with, uh, Ecology thrown in. Uh, and he, we, you know, it was like there's this day where the o- instead of in, you know, in The Creature they, they put a log across the, the lagoon and they can't get out, you know? Here it was a log across the street and they're driving in Winne- in Winnebago and they can't get out, you know? They get out to try to get the log out and they, they open the Winnebago door and The Octoman's in there, and uh-

Joe Rogan 33:30 (laughs)

Rick Baker 33:30 ... he knocks a guy down and then they, they're supposed to, the other guy's supposed to pick up the log and throw it at The Octoman. And I go, you know, "Where's the prop log that we're gonna use?" And, and, uh, and you know, he goes, "Well, it's that." And I go, "That's, that's a l- tree limb." You know? I go, "That- That's gonna hurt the guy in the suit and it's gonna hurt the suit," you know? And I go, "And we- we're gonna rehearse this, right?" And he goes, "No, we don't have time to rehearse it." And I go, "Well-"

Joe Rogan 33:51 Oh.

Rick Baker 33:51 When he, The Octoman's supposed to bend over and pick up the Pierangeli, who was the female lead who killed herself after this movie, r- I can tell you what, how good the movie was, you know? (laughs) Um, so when he goes to pick her up, let's cut there because if you cut I can wrap the tentacles around her and it'll look more like he's holding her, you know? So anyways, they start filming without rehearsing. Octoman opens the door, knocks a guy down, the guy picks up the log, throws it, The Octoman hits him, rips the suit. He goes walking over, and he's virtually blind, he's looking out of two little holes-

Joe Rogan 34:22 (laughs)

Rick Baker 34:22 ... out this far away. You know, in his... It was a real claustrophobic suit. The poor guy, Reid Morgan, who played The Octoman, was great to deal with but it was, uh, a very hard suit to wear. He goes to pick up Pierangeli, nobody says cut so he picks her up. So walking around, the guy who he knocked on the ground is laying on the ground spread eagle. He ends up stepping right on his nuts.

Joe Rogan 34:41 Oh.

Rick Baker 34:42 Falls over backwards, throws Pierangeli-

Joe Rogan 34:44 Oh.

Rick Baker 34:44 ... up against, uh, against the Winnebago.

Joe Rogan 34:46 Oh.

Rick Baker 34:47 She's crying, says he wants her mother. The other guy's holding her nuts, you know? And the other guy-

Joe Rogan 34:50 Oh, Jesus.

Rick Baker 34:51 ... broke his hand because the log fell on his hand, and everybody's screaming. I'm going, "You ripped my suit." (laughs) You know?

Joe Rogan 34:56 Oh, God.

Rick Baker 34:56 And we lost a day out of our 10-day shooting schedule. So, Harry Essex, who was the director and writer, uh, was tearing pages out of the script like this. In breaths, just-

Joe Rogan 35:06 (laughs)

Rick Baker 35:06 ... "We don't need this, we don't need this, we don't need this." And then when they tried to make a movie out of it, it made no sense.

Joe Rogan 35:11 (laughs)

Rick Baker 35:11 So I mean, I think the, the first 20 minutes are stock footage of, you know, in the beginning there was nothing and then, you know, then there was slime and then, you know, the whole...

Joe Rogan 35:18 I can't wait to watch that. (laughs)

Rick Baker 35:19 Oh, no, it's, uh, it's, uh, there's a, uh, I- I think it's in public domain now. I think it's on YouTube.

Joe Rogan 35:23 Oh, excellent.

Rick Baker 35:23 But there's a, a Blu-ray out of it as well.

Joe Rogan 35:26 Yeah. I might have to fire up a joint-

Rick Baker 35:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:28 ... and watch that one. Now, when you, whe- when you look back on that, y- you mean it's gotta be kind of... And even though it sounds like a clusterfuck, it seems like it's kind of a fond memory as well, because that was where it started.

Rick Baker 35:40 It was, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:41 I mean, you got to see, uh, how much nonsense there is in the movie industry, but you also got a chance to get going.

Rick Baker 35:47 Yeah. And- and I got, you know, we- we came up with a way to do this because we couldn't... It's a foam rubber suit and foam rubber has to be baked in an oven. We didn't have a big oven. We didn't have the means so we- we came up with a clever solution, and it's what I had to do so many times in films. Do things that people hadn't done before in, on a budget and schedule, you know? And, and try to figure out, and that's part of the fun, you know?

Joe Rogan 36:09 Yeah.

Rick Baker 36:10 But what was cool about The Octoman, uh, the- the male lead was, uh, Kerwin Matthews, who was Sinbad in The Seven Dwarfs of Sinbad.

Joe Rogan 36:16 Oh.

Rick Baker 36:16 Which, again, a Ray Harryhausen film that I was a-

Joe Rogan 36:18 Yeah.

Rick Baker 36:19 ... big fan of. You know? So,... uh, one of the first things I had to do, there's a scene where the Octoman's tentacle's supposed to creep through this cave opening, and they basically wadded up some tar paper and I stood behind the tar paper in Bronson Caves and stuck my hand in his tentacle and did- did this. And when Kirwin walked by, uh, I said, "Super dynamation," which is what Ray Harryhausen's technique, he called for a few films. And he goes, "Oh, you know about that." (laughs) You know, so I thought that was really cool.

Joe Rogan 36:47 My kids found out about Harryhausen from, uh, Monsters Inc.

Rick Baker 36:51 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 36:51 And, uh, they were like, "Who's that? Who's Harryhausen?"

Rick Baker 36:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:54 And I said, "Well, he's the guy that made all the early monster movies."

Rick Baker 36:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:58 And so then we sat down and we watched King Kong together. And they were scared at first.

Rick Baker 37:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:01 They're like, "Oh, my God, I'm scared." But they started laughing when they saw King Kong. It's like-

Rick Baker 37:06 The stop-motion, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:06 Yeah, I mean, it's- it's, today, in comparison to, you know, even in comparison to your version of King Kong-

Rick Baker 37:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:12 ... when you could, you know, make it mechanized and, you know, it's just, it's- it's amazing when you think about how far we came.

Rick Baker 37:19 But, you know, the... Yes, the stop-motion. And- and Harryhausen didn't animate on King Kong, he did Mighty Joe Young.

Joe Rogan 37:24 Oh, okay.

Rick Baker 37:24 Uh, you know, but King Kong is what inspired him. That was Willis O'Brien and, and Pete Peterson who were the animators on that. But-

Joe Rogan 37:30 He did, um, the... What was the, um, the o- ... The one with Medusa, did he do that one?

Rick Baker 37:37 Uh, Harryhausen, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:37 Yes.

Rick Baker 37:38 Uh, Clash of the Titans.

Joe Rogan 37:38 Clash of the Titans.

Rick Baker 37:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 37:39 Right, that was him, right?

Rick Baker 37:40 Well, again, and Ray was a one-man show. You know, in stop-motion, you know, it's 24 frames a second, you move a l-

Joe Rogan 37:45 He did it all himself?

Rick Baker 37:45 All himself. And when you're animating seven skele- ... In Jason and the Argonauts, there's seven skeletons fighting seven guys.

Joe Rogan 37:50 Right. He did all that himself?

Rick Baker 37:52 Himself. And I became, I, uh, I became friends with Ray. And-

Joe Rogan 37:55 Wow.

Rick Baker 37:56 And I would say to him, and, and this was during the time when computer stuff was starting out, you know, and, you know, his movies were $50,000 movies, you know (laughs) . You know, the whole budget of the movie, you know, not just his effects, you know, early ones that he did, you know. And I said, "You know, doesn't it piss you off that now th- they get millions of dollars and there's hundreds of people working on stuff that you did by yourself, you know?" And-

Joe Rogan 38:17 Well, they can never take away his legacy, though.

Rick Baker 38:19 Oh, no.

Joe Rogan 38:19 You know, even though he did it all. But h- him, he was not just a groundbreaker, but th- he's the guy.

Rick Baker 38:27 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:27 When you think about stop-mat- stop-motion films and, and horror films, he's the guy that you think of.

Rick Baker 38:33 Oh, yeah. And-

Joe Rogan 38:33 Can you pull up Jason and the Argonauts skeleton scene?

Rick Baker 38:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:36 I can't believe he did that all himself.

Rick Baker 38:38 Yeah, I mean it's-

Joe Rogan 38:38 'Cause that's a very, very detailed and intricate scene.

Rick Baker 38:41 Oh, yeah. No, 'cause you have to match what they're doing.

Joe Rogan 38:43 Yes.

Rick Baker 38:43 You know what I mean? And, you know, you're in a room by yourself and, you know, moving a, you know, fraction of an inch a puppet at a time, you know, and it-

Joe Rogan 38:50 Oh, my God.

Rick Baker 38:50 ... takes forever. You know, and I mean, h- having ... If you've never done stop-motion, you can't appreciate it.

Joe Rogan 38:55 Here it is.

Rick Baker 38:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:57 Oh, my God. What year was this?

Rick Baker 38:59 Uh, I'm not sure exactly.

Joe Rogan 39:01 And look, they pop out of the ground.

Rick Baker 39:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:03 So s-

Rick Baker 39:04 Oh, and it's, and it's great, uh, Bernard Herrmann music in this. You know, he always had a, a, uh, terrific scores in his, in his films as well. You know, and again, he was a fan. He was a fanboy-

Joe Rogan 39:12 Yes.

Rick Baker 39:12 ... who, who made a living doing something that he loved. You know, and ...

Joe Rogan 39:15 And imagine being the actors and having to sort of respond to all this.

Rick Baker 39:20 To nothing. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:21 To these skeletons that are popping out of the ground with shields and swords.

Rick Baker 39:25 Which aren't there.

Joe Rogan 39:26 Which aren't there.

Rick Baker 39:26 You know, uh, and, uh, which, you know, came, you know, months later, you know (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 39:30 Yeah. "Okay, you're seeing the skeleton now."

Rick Baker 39:32 Yeah (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 39:32 "You're scared. He's going to take your soul."

Rick Baker 39:35 Well, Ray would kind of direct those scenes because, uh, you know, most directors don't know what to do with that kind of stuff.

Joe Rogan 39:40 Sure.

Rick Baker 39:40 You know?

Joe Rogan 39:41 Yeah.

Rick Baker 39:41 Uh, but he was ... Uh, and you know, what I thought was great about Ray is, like, so many artists, you know, aren't appreciated till after they're gone. You know?

Joe Rogan 39:49 Right.

Rick Baker 39:49 Ray, uh, saw the impact he had. I mean, I went to his 90th birthday celebration in, in, in England, um, w- the, uh, the British Film Academy, uh, did this great tribute to Ray. And everybody showed up. I mean, Peter Jackson came. You know, people who didn't show up sent videos. Steven Spielberg sent a video. Jo- John, uh, Jim Cameron did. All talking about how much r- Ray's films and Ray's work influenced them. And it was really great, you know. And, and I, I ... It's so nice that he was able to be appreciated like that in his lifetime. And, and now I'm actually ... I mean, uh, the funny thing is I'm getting that now with this, with my book that's come out. People are just going, "Oh, my God, you're ... I love you so much, and the stuff you've done." It's just, you know, it's nice to know that y- y- you know, I, I served a purpose in my life (laughs) you know?

Joe Rogan 40:37 Oh, you, you, you served a giant purpose. And you served a big purpose in my life, man. Like I said, I'm, I'm such a huge fan of your work.

Rick Baker 40:43 Oh, thanks.

Joe Rogan 40:44 And when you look back, like, what was the first thing that you did where you're like, "Okay, that was a good one"?

Rick Baker 40:50 Well, you know, it's funny, once you do something and you look at it, you see all the things that are wrong with it, you know. And, and I always say, "I wish I could see the film before I make this stuff," because so many times the thing that's supposed to be the most important thing just isn't. And something that you, like, threw together is all of a sudden the most important thing, you know?

Joe Rogan 41:06 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 41:07 I mean, I, I mean, A- American Werewolf was probably the one where ... Uh, I mean, that's one that really put me on the map. I mean, a lot of people say King Kong was, but, um, uh, American Werewolf, you know, I, I looked at it and I thought, "Well, that's pretty cool." You know, but I also went, "God, I wish we did this and I wish I d- you know, didn't do that." You know, and-

Joe Rogan 41:27 Oh, man, it just-

Rick Baker 41:27 I see so many things that I would do differently now. I don't know-

Joe Rogan 41:29 That movie's a masterpiece. It's a-

Rick Baker 41:31 Well, it's a great film.

Joe Rogan 41:32 I mean-

Rick Baker 41:33 And-

Joe Rogan 41:33 It's a great film.

Rick Baker 41:33 I mean, and I ... My second film was Schlock, which was John Landis's first film.

Joe Rogan 41:37 Ah.

Rick Baker 41:38 Uh, and I was 20 and he was 21.

Joe Rogan 41:41 (laughs)

Rick Baker 41:42 And I had, again, I think I had six weeks and I think I had $1,000, again, to make ... John played the Schlockthropus. I don't know if you've ever seen Schlock.

Joe Rogan 41:50 No, never saw it.

Rick Baker 41:50 That's another one you gotta watch.

Joe Rogan 41:52 (laughs)

Rick Baker 41:52 Uh, low-budget, you know, movie shot by a kid basically, you know. Um, with a, uh, you know, and he ... Like I said, he played this ... It was based ... Have you ever seen Trog?

Joe Rogan 42:03 Yes.

Rick Baker 42:03 Joan Crawford?

Joe Rogan 42:04 Yes.

Rick Baker 42:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:04 Yes.

Rick Baker 42:05 He saw Trog and couldn't believe that they made this movie, so he was making like a joke-

Joe Rogan 42:09 (laughs)

Rick Baker 42:09 ... a joke version of Schlock, you know. Um ...

Joe Rogan 42:12 Oh.

Rick Baker 42:13 Uh, and, uh, he wanted to play this ape man character. And it's like, "Well, okay, you know, but you're gonna be the director too?" So, you know, he had to be on set at 6:00 in the morning whether Schlock worked or not, all made up, you know.

Joe Rogan 42:26 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 42:26 And it was shot in three weeks, and John and I were going on two hours sleep a night. You know, he ...... I would make him up. We were out in Agoura, uh, at- at- at where it used to be an Oakwood School where John went for a while and I think was thrown out of. Uh, and we lived and worked in this, like, screened-in patio, uh, that was, uh, left over in this dilapidated building. And I was making up John on a bar stool and, uh, eventually he was, like, falling asleep and doing those, you know, that thing (laughs) , you know, and I'd have to grab him. But he, for some reason, they, they were doing the dailies at, at MGM, so we would have to go from a, after 12-hour day of filming and, you know, an hour removing the makeup, we'd get in the car, drive to MGM, look at the previous day's dailies, drive back, sleep for two hours, get up and start again. You know?

Joe Rogan 43:10 Oh my God.

Rick Baker 43:11 And it was during a heatwave in Agoura and the first day, John, uh, uh, had the suit on all day and I was like combing it and brushing it and the hair was just falling out in handfuls and I went, "Oh my God. Then my, my second film of my career is over."

Joe Rogan 43:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Baker 43:25 And, and I would, was staying up all night with a hairdryer to, trying to dry the suit out so I could glue more hair on it, you know?

Joe Rogan 43:29 Oh.

Rick Baker 43:30 Uh, but it's, it's, it's actually kind of a cool makeup and, and, and, and a kind of a fun character, you know. And John had already written American Werewolf and he said, "My next film's gonna be American Werewolf," and-

Joe Rogan 43:40 He wrote that by the time he was 21?

Rick Baker 43:41 He was 20 when he wrote it.

Joe Rogan 43:42 Wow.

Rick Baker 43:43 Yeah. And he goes, "It's gonna be my next film," and he said, "I wanna do a transformation in a way that'd never been done before. It doesn't make sense to me that a man changing and his body going through this metamorphosis would sit in a chair like Lon Chaney Jr. and be still until he finished changing, because I think it would be painful and I want him to be able to move and I wanna show the pain." And, you know, "How would you do that?" And I go, "I have no fucking idea, but I would love to" (laughs) , you know? Because we both loved those-

Joe Rogan 44:11 Yes.

Rick Baker 44:11 ... transformation scenes, you know?

Joe Rogan 44:13 Pull that transformation scene up.

Rick Baker 44:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:15 The, the initial transformation scene is so fucking awesome, because, uh, I remember seeing it in the theater. What year was this?

Rick Baker 44:22 1981, I think it was.

Joe Rogan 44:23 Okay. So I was 14 years old.

Rick Baker 44:25 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 44:25 I was in high school. And I remember seeing this in the movie theater, and this was another one that sort of cemented the idea that, uh, I wanted to be a, a makeup artist. When he pulls all his clothes off and he's burning up and then he looks at his hand-

Rick Baker 44:38 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 44:38 ... and his hand starts stretching out. Like, that was incredible.

Rick Baker 44:42 Well, and-

Joe Rogan 44:42 This was just such a different werewolf too. Like, everything about it was different.

Rick Baker 44:45 Yeah. Well, again, and, and, and I credit John for that. And he also said, you know, "I wanna do it in a brightly lit room. It's not gonna have horror film lighting. It's gonna be, you know-"

Joe Rogan 44:53 Right.

Rick Baker 44:54 "... real." You know?

Joe Rogan 44:55 How did you do this? How did you do the hand?

Rick Baker 44:56 It's, uh, we called it a Change-o-Hand. It was actually a fake hand. We storyboarded the whole sequence, and that's a different fake hand there. That's a second one.

Joe Rogan 45:03 Right.

Rick Baker 45:03 And that's another one there. It's got syringes in it that we pump, and now he's wearing an appliance hand that matches that, see? Um, and we storyboarded the whole sequence and, as you saw when David first took off his clothes, he's not very hairy.

Joe Rogan 45:15 Right.

Rick Baker 45:16 And I said, "For me to, to glue a little bit of hair on," and then we'd do him a little hairier and a little hairier, "I- it's better for us to work in reverse. Let me do him at the hairiest first and I'll pull hair off and trim it."

Joe Rogan 45:27 Oh.

Rick Baker 45:28 And-

Joe Rogan 45:28 Interesting.

Rick Baker 45:28 Yeah. But we boarded the whole thing out, so... And this hair growing was reverse, uh, I, I punched hair through rubber and then pulled it through and we ver- reversed printed it so it looked like it was growing.

Joe Rogan 45:38 Oh.

Rick Baker 45:38 This is a whole fake back again with things coming out of it. That's a-

Joe Rogan 45:41 So you punched hair through rubber and pulled it through?

Rick Baker 45:44 Yeah, like this.

Joe Rogan 45:44 And then reversed it?

Rick Baker 45:45 So then it grows out like that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:46 Oh. Wow.

Rick Baker 45:48 Um, but what I, w- we thought what would be the most impactful thing would be for his face to change last, but what I don't like about the transformation, like here, the wolf has a big mane of hair so he's got this big m- hairy neck that I don't like-

Joe Rogan 46:01 Yeah.

Rick Baker 46:01 ... you know? And it's, uh, you know, uh, and that's... David doesn't have lenses in his eyes, they're just red from (laughs) ... That was a 10-hour day-

Joe Rogan 46:09 Really?

Rick Baker 46:09 ... of makeup. Uh-

Joe Rogan 46:10 So just exhausted-

Rick Baker 46:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:11 ... and with makeup on?

Rick Baker 46:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:13 This was incredible, man. That's crazy that he doesn't have any eyes, he doesn't have anything in his eyes.

Rick Baker 46:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:18 That's just his eyes.

Rick Baker 46:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Holy shit.

Rick Baker 46:20 Uh, but yeah, this is the first stage Change-o-Head. So this is a, a rubber head that had mechanisms that push it out, you know? Uh, and this is the second stage Change-o-Head. Uh, and it stretches out like that, and... The thing that was interesting, 'cause I mean, I, I was 30 when we did this. It was at a time when there weren't people that did this kind of work. Uh, there, just a few in Hollywood, you know? Like John Chambers, who did Planet of the Apes. But for me to find a crew, I hired kids that sent me fan mail. They were-

Joe Rogan 46:48 (laughs)

Rick Baker 46:48 There was a kid, a kid from Texas that sent me fan mail, another kid from Connecticut, and they were like 18.

Joe Rogan 46:53 Wow.

Rick Baker 46:53 And my, I mean, I had a crew of, like, basically 18-year-olds and me. You know, it was like, I think six of us, uh, who did this film, you know, 30 or however many years ago, I'm not good at math. Um, and it still looks pretty decent, you know?

Joe Rogan 47:05 Fucking awesome.

Rick Baker 47:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:06 Not just pretty decent. I mean, there's a reason why I have the American Werewolf, the Pat McGee version of it sitting there in the front.

Rick Baker 47:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:12 But now I have to call Pat and tell him that the legs are off.

Rick Baker 47:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:14 What's wrong with the legs?

Rick Baker 47:16 They're too stretched out and too long. It, uh, w- you know, we actually... That was a problem, 'cause I didn't know how I was gonna make this four-legged wolf work, you know?

Joe Rogan 47:22 Yeah.

Rick Baker 47:23 And, uh, I thought, "Well, I'll figure out something" and it, and it came to me one night, I thought... I remember as a kid, uh, you, you ever do that wheelbarrow race thing where somebody holds your feet and you're walking on your hands?

Joe Rogan 47:33 Yes. Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 47:33 You know? I thought, "Well, if we do something like that and have, like, puppeteered legs in the back."

Joe Rogan 47:37 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 47:37 So if, the reality is, if you really see the, the full wolf, there's feet sticking out of his ass. He's got, uh-

Joe Rogan 47:43 Oh.

Rick Baker 47:43 ... uh, two legs sticking out, but we had him, like, on a platform with wheels and the back legs were puppeteered with little rods, you know? So you never-

Joe Rogan 47:50 Oh.

Rick Baker 47:50 ... you know, the back, and the back legs come in, that's when you cut, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 47:53 Right, right, right.

Rick Baker 47:55 And a lot of the stuff, like in Piccadilly Circus when the big bus crash and stuff-

Joe Rogan 47:58 Yes.

Rick Baker 47:58 ... that's me in a wheelchair with a, with a head, with John pushing me down the street.

Joe Rogan 48:02 Wow.

Rick Baker 48:03 Just going... (wheelchair crashing noises) You know?

Joe Rogan 48:03 That was a great scene. God, that was a great scene.

Rick Baker 48:05 Yeah. Oh, and-

Joe Rogan 48:06 When the werewolf comes bursting out of the, the, the, the porno theater-

Rick Baker 48:09 The porno theater.

Joe Rogan 48:09 Porno theater, yeah.

Rick Baker 48:10 Which the-

Joe Rogan 48:10 And bites the guy in the head.

Rick Baker 48:11 That script, I think, was the only script that, uh, I've worked on in my entire career that w- w- the script that I read was basically the script we made. The only difference was when John wrote the script originally, h-... uh, that aeros- the cinema, uh, in, in Piccadilly Circus was a cartoon cinema.

Joe Rogan 48:28 Oh.

Rick Baker 48:28 And in the original script it was a cartoon cinema, but when we got there, it was a porno cinema. So he changed that scene, you know, to a porno cinema. Other than that, it's the sa- the script is basically verbatim what he wrote as a 20-year-old. And his use of music and everything was groundbreaking at the time. People didn't do like the way he did, you know?

Joe Rogan 48:44 And his friend that kept returning-

Rick Baker 48:47 Jack.

Joe Rogan 48:47 ... more raw, more and more rotten every time, like that was a genius idea as well.

Rick Baker 48:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:52 Like that Jack had explained to him like, "Hey man, you gotta kill yourself."

Rick Baker 48:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:56 "You're a werewolf, you're gonna kill a bunch of people."

Rick Baker 48:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:58 Like the a- it was so, everything about it was so unique.

Rick Baker 49:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:01 It was a, it, it completely flipped the whole idea of what a werewolf movie was on its head.

Rick Baker 49:06 Yeah. And, and, and it worked, you know? And, and Griffin, who, who played Jack, when I first made him up in that makeup, uh, he, (laughs) as I was putting the stuff on, you know, in the makeup chair, he's kinda like getting more and more sad and like sinking down in the chair. And, and it's like, "What's wrong, Griffin? Is something wrong?" And he goes, "Look at me," you know? (laughs) And I go, "Yeah." And he goes, uh, "Look at me. This is my big break, and I, I'm, I," you know, "my throat's torn out and, I mean, nobody's gonna look at me." You know? And it's like, "Did you read the script?" "Yeah." "Didn't it say your throat was torn out?" "Yeah." (laughs) And he goes, "But I didn't, I didn't think it would look like this." And I go, "I did." (laughs) You know? And that's what John thought it should look like.

Joe Rogan 49:44 So he was bummed out?

Rick Baker 49:45 Well, he was at first, you know, uh, 'cause it is, it's disturbing to see, you know, y- y-

Joe Rogan 49:49 But it's a great role.

Rick Baker 49:50 Yeah. No, and he was brilliant and, and he, he was terrific to work with, you know. But the initial shock of seeing himself torn up-

Joe Rogan 49:56 Right.

Rick Baker 49:57 ... was, it was hard for him to take, you know?

Joe Rogan 49:58 'Cause it's so realistic.

Rick Baker 49:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:59 Yeah.

Rick Baker 49:59 But he, but he wa- you know, I thought, okay, I gotta call. John was in England, um, already scouting locations and, uh, so I said, you know, "You gotta talk to Griffin. He's, you know, kinda upset about what he looks like," you know?

Joe Rogan 50:10 (laughs)

Rick Baker 50:10 Uh, but, you know, I took that opportunity, uh, being the sensitive guy that I am, to tell him that the third part of his transformation was, he, he was actually gonna be a puppet. It wasn't even really gonna be him, because he was supposed to become b- basically a talking skeleton.

Joe Rogan 50:25 Right.

Rick Baker 50:25 You know? And the makeup process is an additive process, and, and, you know, he would have to be a huge s- skull to look right.

Joe Rogan 50:34 Right.

Rick Baker 50:34 You know, and he wasn't too happy about that either. But I said, "But I want you to operate the mouth, because you're doing the lip s- sync, you know, you're, you're doing the voice, and you, you, you..." you know. So he operated a puppet. But he, he turned out to be a great guy, you know, and, and, and he, I thought he was brilliant in the film, and, and, and, uh, I mean, you know, the whole film, you know?

Joe Rogan 50:51 The film's amazing, and it's funny, too. That's one, one of the things that's interesting about the film. It's like it's silly, but horrific, like the violence and the, the, the, the, the explosive scenes of the werewolf, like, ripping people apart. But then some of it is hilarious.

Rick Baker 51:06 Well, that whole sequence in the porno theater with all the dead people-

Joe Rogan 51:09 Yes. (laughs)

Rick Baker 51:09 ... and all the bloody pie- I mean, when we were, when we were filming it-

Joe Rogan 51:12 Oh.

Rick Baker 51:12 ... I was kinda going, "Is this funny?" (laughs) You know, "Is this gonna work?"

Joe Rogan 51:16 It was funny.

Rick Baker 51:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:17 It was a welcome sort of comic relief from the, the graphic horror of the, the werewolf tearing people apart.

Rick Baker 51:24 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's, I think it's a brilliant film and, and-

Joe Rogan 51:27 It's a brilliant film.

Rick Baker 51:28 And it changed my life. I mean, I got my first Oscar for that film, you know? And, and, uh, I mean, uh, so fortunate to me that, that John came into my life. And this e- this happened, again, because at Don Post Studios that I talked about, uh, where I, they made the Halloween masks. Um, John was a mail boy at Fox, uh, for a while, and he knew John Chambers. He would deliver mail to the, John Chambers who did the Planet of the Apes makeup. And he talked to John Chambers at first about doing Schlock, and John said, "Well, I need, you know, $250,000," and the budget of the whole film, I think, was $30,000, you know? So, uh, y- uh, I think he just basically didn't wanna deal with this hyperactive kid, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:09 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 52:10 And so he sent him to Don Post Studios, and Don Post, uh, you know, said, well, same thing, that they didn't really wanna deal with this kid, and, and they had, it would be way too much money. You know?

Joe Rogan 52:20 Right.

Rick Baker 52:21 But they said, "There's a kid who comes in here and buys material." I used to go there to buy materials, because in those days, now there are stores that sell all the supplies that you need.

Joe Rogan 52:28 Right.

Rick Baker 52:28 The, I used to have to drive all over California to get what I need, and some stuff they would only sell you in a 55-gallon drum, which I couldn't afford, you know? Like polyurethane-

Joe Rogan 52:37 What kinds of stuff?

Rick Baker 52:37 Polyurethane foam, which is a two-part foam that foams up, a chemical reaction foams it up, makes cyanide gas when it foams.

Joe Rogan 52:45 Oh.

Rick Baker 52:45 Which nobody told me. Uh-

Joe Rogan 52:47 (laughs)

Rick Baker 52:47 ... you know, but Don Post would, you know, pour some in a can. He'd go, "Here you go, kid." You know? And first time I used it in my bedroom, I d- I practically died (laughs) in my s-

Joe Rogan 52:54 Really?

Rick Baker 52:55 Yeah. And I have a real strong, I, uh, it, I have a very strong allergic reaction to it now when it, um-

Joe Rogan 53:01 Because of that?

Rick Baker 53:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:02 Wow.

Rick Baker 53:02 Uh, yeah, I mean, my throat closed up. I could hardly breathe, and-

Joe Rogan 53:04 Whoa.

Rick Baker 53:05 ... and I didn't know what was going on, and I found out what it was, but Don-

Joe Rogan 53:08 Fucking cyanide. Jesus.

Rick Baker 53:09 Yeah. But because of that, because I left, that, that's the only time in my life I actually had a business card, you know? And John says, you know, it said Rick Baker Monster Maker, but I think it said Rick Baker Makeup Artist, you know? But I gave a card and some pictures to Don Post, and when they were trying to get rid of this kid who wanted a funky gorilla suit thing, you know, they said, "Well, this guy's made some gorilla suits. Why don't you talk to him?"

Joe Rogan 53:28 Ah.

Rick Baker 53:28 And John lived in Westwood, uh, near the cemetery there, the veteran cemetery. He dr- he drove out to Covina, and again, I was still pretty shy at that point. And my bedroom at that point was, you know, I, I had a, I slept on a convertible sofa 'cause I had gotten enough money to buy one so I could fold it up and have f- more floor space to work. But my masks and my, I had work tables everywhere, you know? And, and John is very loud and, and, and, and, and, uh, hyperactive and, and he was coming in, and he was flipping out over the stuff that I made, you know? And like touching it and stuff. And I'm going, "Oh," you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:01 S-

Rick Baker 54:01 I's like, "This guy's in my room and he's touching my stuff and he's really scaring me." You know? (laughs) And, uh-

Joe Rogan 54:06 (laughs)

Rick Baker 54:07 But I mean, thank God, I mean, American Werewolf, you know, put me on the map, and I mean, I, I, I did Coming to America and my introduction to, to-

Joe Rogan 54:15 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 54:15 ... Eddie Murphy was, you know, big, and I did a lot of films with Eddie. And because of John, I actually met my wife, Sylvia, on a, on a John Landis film, uh-

Joe Rogan 54:24 Mm.

Rick Baker 54:24 ... where he had me play a, um-... originally, it was a, uh, Jesus freak. It was a film called Into the Night, and it was all filmed at night. And we, I met my wife on Hollywood Boulevard in front of Frederic's of Hollywood, uh, in the middle of the night, and it turned out, uh, uh, and they changed it to a dope dealer. I was playing a dope dealer, and Sylvia was the hairstylist on the film. And John came in and says, "I want you to be in the movie. I want you to play the part you were born to play, a hooker." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:50 (laughs)

Rick Baker 54:50 And so my wife was a hooker in the background, you know? Uh, and there's a picture of us, it's in, uh, in the book actually, on the night we met-

Joe Rogan 54:57 Oh.

Rick Baker 54:57 ... in front of Frederic's of Hollywood, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:59 Oh, that's cool.

Rick Baker 55:00 And, you know, now we have two amazing children, and, and, uh, and, and a great life. And, uh, you know, I owe John a lot.

Joe Rogan 55:07 Well, you and John made magic. You really did. I mean, that, that movie was so good. You know, and as we said, one of the things about that film is it's, it was so strategic in its use of the werewolf.

Rick Baker 55:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:18 You know, that you, you'd really, you, when you got a chance to see it, like one of my favorite scenes was when the guy, the businessman is in the subway-

Rick Baker 55:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:25 ... and he's running away from the werewolf. And you know it's chasing him, but you don't see it.

Rick Baker 55:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:29 And you don't see it until he's stumbling on the escalator, and then you see it at the bottom of the escalator.

Rick Baker 55:32 Yeah, just walking into the frame.

Joe Rogan 55:34 Just for a second. Just walking into the frame, and you're like, "Fuck yeah." Woo!

Rick Baker 55:36 And they cut right before you see his feet sticking out of his ass, you know?

Joe Rogan 55:39 Yes. (laughs)

Rick Baker 55:39 Well, that was the thing with the design of the werewolf as well 'cause, because John said he wasn't gonna show it. I-

Joe Rogan 55:44 Hmm.

Rick Baker 55:45 Normally, you would, when you do something f- that's gonna be an animatronic character, you would kind of sculpt it in a neutral position and you let the mechanism, uh, make the expressions. But, uh, from my experience in other films, the editor doesn't necessarily choose the moment where you think it's the best expression, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:02 Hmm.

Rick Baker 56:03 And I thought, if it's only gonna be on for a second, I want it to be scary-looking. So I sculpted in a scary expression on it, which, you know, I normally wouldn't do. Uh, s- I just, s- so there was no way that it wasn't gonna look scary when he saw it, you know, you know.

Joe Rogan 56:16 Right, right, right, snarling.

Rick Baker 56:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:18 Was that, was that the case with the cantina scene in Star Wars? 'Cause the Star Wars scene, um, there's, that's a, that's a crazy scene because you've got so many characters in that scene. And today, when you go back and look at it, like-

Rick Baker 56:32 It's pretty cheesy, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:33 ... you see masks.

Rick Baker 56:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:34 Yeah.

Rick Baker 56:35 Well, I, that came about, uh, or- originally, the, you know, the film was done in England. Nobody knew Star Wars was gonna be Star Wars, you know? Stuart Freeborn was the makeup artist in the film, and he did the Wookiee. He did the cantina scene originally, but George wanted to embellish on it and didn't like a lot of the stuff that he did. So at ILM, which was in Van Nuys then, Industrial Light & Magic, when it first started, the guys that were doing the visual effects for, uh, for that, uh, for Star Wars. My friends that I met at Cloke is Dennis Muren and Ken Ralston were, were, uh, shooting the, uh, the special effects. And George came in and said, "Do you know anybody that can make a mask? 'Cause I need, I wanna add some masks to the, to the cantina scene." And they go, "Yeah, we do." So they called me in. Uh, so I went over to Valjean Avenue on, and George on a flatbed editor showed me the sequence as it existed, and I was flipping out. I was like, "What a cool idea to have this bar full of aliens," you know? And I go, "Well, let's do, you know, let's do, we could do one that has like, you know, like, that's kind of like an alien pirate that's got a, like, alien parrot character in his" ... Nothing goes... Well, we, b- we don't have any money, you know? It's like (laughs) , you know, uh, we've already spent the money, you know? It, it, we don't have a lot of money for this. I just want masks, uh, you know? And I said, "Well, I, you know what? I have a bunch of stuff I made myself for fun that we can just throw in there." There, there's a devil guy that my-

Joe Rogan 57:51 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 57:51 ... that I made that five years before Star Wars, you know? There's a werewolf guy and another-

Joe Rogan 57:56 Yeah.

Rick Baker 57:56 ... guy with glowy eyes. I made those before Star Wars. I just said, "Oh, you can use them." Uh, I thought they were gonna be stuck in the background, you know? And, but we did like the cantina band, you know? The first-

Joe Rogan 58:05 (sings)

Rick Baker 58:05 Yeah. The first aliens that you see, almost all the first aliens you see are all the ones that we did. I think we did 30.

Joe Rogan 58:11 Oh.

Rick Baker 58:11 And, but what was great-

Joe Rogan 58:13 There he is.

Rick Baker 58:13 Yeah, that was one of the masks I made before, uh, he's good. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:16 (laughs) Jamie's the best.

Rick Baker 58:18 Yeah, uh-

Joe Rogan 58:18 Play that, Jamie. Yeah, that was such a great scene too, though.

Rick Baker 58:25 Oh, uh, these are Stuart Freeborn's things, you know? But the thing that's great, the cantina band was never there. And when you see the movie, you think it's there. And-

Joe Rogan 58:34 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 58:34 ... uh, I've used this so many times where I say, "Can we shoot this like in post-production?" That's the devil guy.

Joe Rogan 58:40 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 58:40 Yeah. And these guys were the guys that we, one of the guys, uh, some of the guys we made.

Joe Rogan 58:43 So you shot the alien band in post-

Rick Baker 58:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:45 ... and stuck them in there.

Rick Baker 58:46 And, and, and in Los Angeles in a, by different people at a different time.

Joe Rogan 58:50 Ah.

Rick Baker 58:50 And y- I've said to, you know, when I say to people, "Let's, can we shoot this in post?" And 'cause what happens, you know, most directors don't like dealing with this sh- this shit, you know?

Joe Rogan 58:58 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 58:58 And they'll put it off to the last shot of the day, and then it's like, "Well, you got 45 minutes." And I go, "But this is the money shot," you know?

Joe Rogan 59:04 Right.

Rick Baker 59:05 "And I prepared for months for this and you're giving me 45 minutes to do this. It's not right. You know, let's shoot it in post-production." "Well, that'll never work, it'll never match." And it's like, "Did you see Star Wars?" "Yeah." "You know the band that's in the cantina?" "Yeah." "That was shot by different people in a different country months later. Did you know that?" "No," (laughs) you know? It's like, you think they're there, you hear the music that they're playing through the scene, you know? Uh, and these are some of our aliens, those two guys, the blue guys in there, um, as is that werewolf.

Joe Rogan 59:33 Yeah.

Rick Baker 59:33 And then, uh ...

Joe Rogan 59:35 That was the only one that looked like a mask.

Rick Baker 59:36 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:37 'Cause, like, his face is frozen.

Rick Baker 59:37 I mean, I think they, I think they all look like masks. We made that guy, and that mask in the background was one of mine that I had before too, you know?

Joe Rogan 59:42 Wow.

Rick Baker 59:42 Um, but yeah, it, and also n-

Joe Rogan 59:44 Well, it's such a great scene.

Rick Baker 59:45 ... I, I, again, it, it was a great idea, and people th- I, I did not make that one. That was on Stuart's. Um, people think of it fondly, you know, uh, and it's more that it's a great idea than the work is great, you know?

Joe Rogan 59:58 Yeah, well, it was, it was a great conglomeration of cool characters-

Rick Baker 1:00:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:02 ... all in one bar. And you, you know, at the time, I mean, it was a completely un- unique and new thing, this-

Rick Baker 1:00:07 Oh, yeah. And, but after that, every movie, every space movie had a cantina scene, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:00:12 (laughs)

Rick Baker 1:00:12 And, and, uh, and, uh, it's like American Werewolf too. Every transformation after American Werewolf was basically the same transformation.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 Yeah.

Rick Baker 1:00:18 You know, they did the same things, you know? Uh, and it happened on Thriller too. You know, I mean, I, because of American Werewolf, when, uh ...... Michael came to, uh, John Landis to do Thriller, you know. He'd liked American Werewolf and he wanted to do, um... He, he wanted it to be a short film. He di- didn't want to call it a music video.

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 1:00:37 And John contacted me and, and said, you know, "Uh, Michael Jackson wants to do this American Werewolf, like, music video," you know, and for the song Thriller, which I hadn't heard. And I was like, you know, "Michael Jackson? Little Michael Jackson in the Jackson 5?" "Yeah." You know, he's not called that anymore, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 (laughs)

Rick Baker 1:00:52 Uh, and so he goes... John says, "I'll send you a cassette. Uh, listen to it and get some ideas." You know, so I... And this was when we had little Walkman, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 Yeah.

Rick Baker 1:01:00 And I'd listen to it with one, and I had another one that I would like, like pre-associate ideas when I was listening, you know? And, and, uh, and, uh, it was like... There's... I thought... Well, these... We came up with the idea of doing these zombie dancers.

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 Mm-hmm.

Rick Baker 1:01:14 And, and I said, "Well, you know, I'm sure you're gonna hire the dancers way in advance so they can learn the dance and stuff." And he goes, "No, they, they, they're, they only need like a couple of days." So they hired them like three days before we filmed and I went, "I can't... That doesn't give me time to take life masks and do all the stuff that I would do. And these zombies should be really cool," you know? So I said, "How about if the first zombies you see are like me and my crew? Because we already have life masks. We can start those today, and we can spend the time on making some cool ones." So I'm in Thriller coming out of a crypt like this, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 (laughs)

Rick Baker 1:01:45 And (laughs) and all my crew basically are the first guys that come out of the ground-

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 Wow.

Rick Baker 1:01:47 ... and break through windows. But the dancers, I said, "I'll figure out a way we can do them," and I... 'Cause I had a number of life masks of different people in small/medium and large male, small/medium and large female, and we sculpted... Uh, we kept pieces. We called them like bandit masks. They were kind of like this around this area, like a... Well, a bandit in a, in a m- movie,