EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,003 words- 0:00 – 1:32
Joe’s lifelong fandom and Rick’s early monster-movie spark
- JRJoe Rogan
Here we go. On three, two, one. (claps) Rick Baker, ladies and gentlemen.
- RBRick Baker
Hey.
- JRJoe Rogan
How are you, sir?
- RBRick Baker
Hey, I'm great, Joe. Everybody's been saying on my Instagram I should do this, uh, podcast for ages, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I'm glad they listened or you listened-
- RBRick Baker
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... rather. I've, I've been a fan of yours forever, man. I was a huge Star Wars fan when I was a kid and you inspired me. When I was young, I really wanted to be a makeup artist. I wanted to do special effects and the kind of stuff that you do.
- RBRick Baker
Oh, I had no idea.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yeah, man. Um, uh, I think it was probably Star Wars that kicked it off for me 'cause I, like many kids... A l- a lot of people today, y- you know, we're so removed with first VHS and then DVDs and laser discs and now streaming, it's so easy to watch movies. But when Star Wars came out, we would go see it over and over and over again. It was like a little contest between a lot of the kids that I went to school with.
- RBRick Baker
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think I saw it 13 times-
- RBRick Baker
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
... while it was out in the movie theater.
- RBRick Baker
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I became fascinated... I've always been fascinated with comic books. I always wanted to be a comic book illustrator. And I, I always loved, like, uh, l- like those fantasy novels, like, creepy and eerie-
- RBRick Baker
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you know, those, uh, those ill- graphic novels. But I really became fascinated with special effects and, um, particularly makeup after your work.
- RBRick Baker
Uh, well, you know, it was kind of the same thing for me. I mean, I, you know, I, I grew up in... I was born in 1950, you know, I grew up in front of a TV, but it was a little black and white one, you know, and, and, uh, there was always the monster movies on Saturdays, you know, and/or Sundays. And that, that just stuff just hit a chord with me and I just said, "I have to do this," you know.
- 1:32 – 2:51
First experiments: makeup as identity, shyness, and the first mask at 13
- JRJoe Rogan
When did you... What was the first thing that you did?
- RBRick Baker
First, first ever makeup kind of thing I did?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
Well, I mean, uh, you know, I was... I'm an only child. Uh, my mom wasn't supposed to have kids 'cause she had a bad heart and stuff. And, and, uh, but they wanted children. And, and, uh, but I was very shy. I, I'm, I stayed in my bedroom, I couldn't talk to an adult and stuff like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
And the very s- first thing I, you know, I, I got interested in makeup and I got some just white grease paint and black grease paint and smeared it on my face. And just with a layer of grease paint on my face when I was looking in the mirror, it wasn't, wasn't little Ricky Baker anymore. And I could do things that I couldn't do without this shit smeared on my face, you know? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RBRick Baker
And, uh, it just, it, it helped me overcome my shyness. But, I mean, it, it started with that. But, I mean, I, I... but I was, I wanted to do something more, you know, so I ended up making... I made my first mask, I think, when I was 13. Um, and it was, uh, Curse of Frankenstein, uh, Frankenstein. And I did that one mainly because I thought I could copy that one (laughs) and make it look close enough-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
... 'cause it's, it's, uh, uh, there's some crudeness to that makeup. I've, uh, actually, at first didn't like it, but I, I like it now, you know. And, I mean, it's, uh, when you find out how the film industry works and, and poor Philip Leakey, who did that makeup, had, like, a week to prep, you know, and, and no money, so, it, I, I forgive some of the faults with it.
- 2:51 – 7:00
Silent-era and classic pioneers: why limitations often made makeup better
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's cra- when you stop and think about the earliest versions of s- m- makeup in movies, like special effect style makeup in movies, you know, you go back to, like, Nosferatu is probably one of the very earliest, right? I mean, they really didn't have anything to go with. There wasn't anything to copy.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They, they kind of had to make it up.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. And, I mean, uh, the, you know, the thing is, uh, that Nosferatu is such a, I mean, it's a great film.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a great film.
- RBRick Baker
And, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Still to this day.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. And, and the look, you know, I mean, it shouldn't work by all rights.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
You know, it's like a big hook nose, you know (laughs) and like, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
Uh, but it works great. And, and, um, but, yeah, and same thing, I mean, Lon Chaney had n- nothing to work with, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
He had spirit gum and, and cotton.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
And, and he did, to this day, some of the still the be- my favorite makeups and some of the best makeups. And I think the limitations in a lot of ways made the makeup work better. You know, I mean, y- now we can add so much stuff and I find that happens so much now, like, with that Face Off show and stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
People... it's more like, about how much can you pile on someone's face, you know? But sometimes the most effective makeups are just the tiniest little bit of things that you do and, and they let a lot of the humanity show through.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like Lon Chaney in, uh, in Phantom of the Opera?
- RBRick Baker
Uh, great makeup.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. That's a terrific... And Chaney was just w- brilliant anyways.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRick Baker
You know, and great at making scary faces. That's how I learned to make scary faces watching Chaney movies. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
That's a-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's another one. There's like, there was not much t- for him to go on. There wasn't... He was kind of like a pioneer.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, for sure.
- RBRick Baker
... and, uh, I mean, again, like I said, still some of my favorite makeups. That and, you know, Jack Pierce's Frankenstein's monster.
- 7:00 – 9:48
From nostalgia to philosophy: practical effects vs CGI and the power of brief reveals
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's just... It's such a, an, an interesting time capsule when you look at these films and you look at something like, like Nosferatu from 1922, and then you look at what we're doing today with CGI, in a lot of ways... I, I mean, I'm not a fan of CGI. I'm not a fan of it in terms of, uh, like for monsters, mons... It just seems... Everything seems fake. There's... The suspension of disbelief is higher than if I'm like... What you did with American Werewolf in London, what... One of... One of the more brilliant things about it was the special effects and the makeup were g- fantastic, but they were these really quick scenes. It was like you saw it for a sec, and then it was burned into your eyes.
- RBRick Baker
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then, and then it vanished.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. Well, th- what John Landis said to me is that, "I'm n- I'm never gonna really show the werewolf for more than a couple seconds."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RBRick Baker
And I hardly even wanna show it thin, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
And what was great about Werewolf, working on that film with John Landis, was he, you know, said, "You're the expert. Th- I want a four-legged hound from hell." I wanted to make a biped werewolf, you know? We argued about it, and, you know, it was basically, you know, he wins. He's the director, you know? But he says, "Four-legged hound from hell. Make it," and I did. I mean, the first sculpture was what the final thing became. Same with everything in it, the Nazi demons, all that stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RBRick Baker
You know, cut to, you know, like when I did the Wolf Man, I mean, I did thousands of designs. And, and, you know, all these producers are going, "Well, maybe if you do one between this and that, and do-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RBRick Baker
... one between this and that, and... Or maybe this pore should be over here." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oof.
- RBRick Baker
And that kind of stuff just is so soul-sucking, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
And it's one of the reasons I retired, you know? I just... And, but to this day, I mean, like, on the, on the cover of my, my book is, uh, uh, the sculpture from, uh, of the, one of the Nazi demons from American Werewolf. And, and a number of people said, "This is, like, one of the greatest designs ever," you know, this kind of stuff. And it's, uh, people who are production designers and stuff. And it was... It's pure Rick Baker without interference, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
And, and that's what I thought the industry would be, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
Which it isn't (laughs) for the most part, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's just everybody wants to... It's the same with comedy. It's the same with... It seems like it's the same with everything. Everybody wants to put their greasy little fingerprints on it-
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and, and say, "That's... The reason why his nose is like that was me."
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"I, I told Rick Baker, 'You don't know what you're doing.'
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"You gotta make the nose wider."
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. No, I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That's... Ugh.
- RBRick Baker
And it's, you know, it's watered, watered down, the designs, you know?
- 9:48 – 16:47
Why Rick retired: producer overload, creative interference, and reclaiming joy
- RBRick Baker
And it's the thing, you know. I mean, when you see a movie or a TV show now, there's 47 producers on everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
You know? It used to be they were show people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
And there was a guy... You know, for example, on Gremlins 2, Mike Finnell, who was the producer, uh, uh, who came from Roger Corman, uh, school of filmmaking, you know? So he really checks every penny.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
And, but he was a guy I could go to, and he'd go... What... He, he would look at everything and go, "Why is it... Why is this... Why are you buying this?" And you'd g- explain it to him, and he'd go, "Okay, that makes sense." And there'd be a person you could talk to and you could get an answer from. It... Now, there's, like I said, 47 producers, and nobody will commit to anything, you know? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
And then it's, it's... It drove me crazy. And, you know, I mean, I, I... It was... I, I did makeup because I loved it. And I, I was... I feel so fortunate that my hobby became my profession, and that it did well and got awards for it and stuff. And for something I would do for free, you know? But it got to the point where I, I, I was just becoming a bitter old man because of all this. And I just said-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
... "I have to retire, and I wanna make things for myself while I still can." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
I'm almost 69 years old, and, you know, I'm having trouble with joints and (laughs) vision-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
... and all kinds of stuff, you know? And, and I, I'd be pissed off if I was working on some movie for some producer that w- didn't know what he was talking about and, and screwed up my work, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
So it's time-
- JRJoe Rogan
And messed your head. Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. So it's time to just, you know, make my own thing. And I'm l- I'm loving it, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what kind of stuff are you doing now?
- RBRick Baker
Oh, I do all kinds of stuff. I mean, I, I, I still do makeups, you know, for fun. Um, I've actually cast up some of my... I, I saved a lot of the molds. I cast up some of the old Star Wars stuff out of the molds and, and, and stuff. And, uh, uh, I do animations. I, I, I, uh, make models. I, I make little movies. I paint.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you're just doing it purely for the joy of it now?
- RBRick Baker
Painting and sculpting. It's just like it was when I was a kid. You know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's awesome.
- RBRick Baker
... my, my, my bedroom was my wor- my workshop, you know? I, I, um... And it... You know, I'm surprised I'm still alive. You know, I was... I had a, uh, a bunch of toxic chemicals (laughs) in the same room that I slept, you know? (laughs) And, uh, but it's... You know, it's what I've done since I was a kid. It's how I have fun. It's how I entertain myself, you know? And, and, uh, like I said on my Instagram, everybody's going, you know, "I thought you retired?" And I said, "I retired from the film industry. I didn't retire from being a creative guy." I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
... this is who I am. This is what I do.It's how I have fun.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's awesome. You know, as- as much as the process was probably annoying with The Wolf Man, the end result was cool.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I really loved how you did it and you made it old school. It was kind of like l- almost like the original Wolf Man, but like re- you know, redone.
- 16:47 – 23:47
Breaking in as a ‘monster kid’: Don Post, Bob Burns, and union gatekeeping
- RBRick Baker
tours. And I talked my parents, they said, "You know, you're gonna be a teenager. It's a special birthday. You know, what can we do?" You know. And I said, uh, "Can we go to Universal, on the Universal tour?" You know, and in my head, I was gonna hop off the tram and run into the makeup department and they were gonna hire me, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
And, but on the way, I knew that, um... Are you familiar with Don Post's masks, the Don Post Studios? They did the Universal Classic Monster Masks that were in the back of Famous Monsters and stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- RBRick Baker
Uh, but they did these really high-quality masks that were like 35 dollars in the 60s, which was way beyond anything I could ever afford.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
But everybody, every kid, monster kid coveted those masks, you know. And he, uh, his studio was in Burbank, near Universal, and I had seen him on TV talking about how he was buying Universal. So when we got close, I asked my dad if he could maybe look in the phone book and maybe call up Don Post and we could go visit, and they were very gracious. You know, my dad had said, "You know, my son Ricky likes monsters and he makes masks, and we're in close by. Can you come by?" And they said, "Sure," you know, and gave me the whole tour.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. And on the wall, uh, in Don Post Studios was a picture of Bob Burns, who I'd read about in my monster magazines. He- he's a collector and he- he's done some makeup. He had a mummy suit and a, uh, gorilla suit that he made, and- and it had his phone number, and I wrote it down. And, uh-... I, again, being I was still pretty shy and I got my dad to call this guy who I read about in monster magazines. And he was the first guy I ever met in any, anywhere r- related to the industry. And again, very... Bob and Kathy, you know, welcomed me into their home. He told me, you know, showed me how to do a scar out of a, cut out of mortician's wax and where to get the stuff at Max Factor. And, and it just was like one of the first people to show me stuff. And he worked at the local CBS station and introduced me to the news, the guy who did the newsmen, uh, the makeup artist who made up the newscasters. And he was like blown away by the stuff that I did. And he goes, "I'm gonna take you to the makeup union." And I was like 15 at this point. And so I went to the makeup union with a box full of heads and masks and make, pictures of makeups I did. Again, naïve, uh, thinking that they were gonna say, "Start tomorrow-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
... you can get a job." And the business rep of the union said, you know, "Give up, kid. You're never gonna get in." Uh, uh, you know, that you have to be born into the industry. It was a real... At, at that time-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RBRick Baker
... at that time, there was a lot of nepotism. I mean, there's still nepotism.
- JRJoe Rogan
That bad?
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. But he says, you know, if you were a Westmore, you know, you would get a, a union card with your birth certificate, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
But, but nobody knows, you don't know anybody. You're, you're not... He said, "First of all, you have to be 21 to serve an apprenticeship." I was 15. He said, "There's gonna, there's only a few apprenticeships and they're gonna go to a Westmore or to a, a Bower or, uh, uh, you know, somebody who was a, a name makeup artist or-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
... a relative of one of those.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
And he also said the kind of makeups that I wanted to do, which were monsters and weird stuff, he say, he said, "Those jobs are few and far between and most of the time, you're gonna be mopping sweat off of some bitchy actress."
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RBRick Baker
And it was kind of like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Trying to crush your dreams.
- RBRick Baker
Well, he kind of... It kind of did, but it also was like, "You know what? Fuck you. I'm gonna show you."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRick Baker
You know? And, uh, and I did. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You definitely did. I mean, boy, was he wrong.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You turned out to be the greatest of all time.
- 23:47 – 36:47
First paid work and first feature: The Octoman chaos baptism
- JRJoe Rogan
Certainly did. What was your first gig? Like, what was the first-
- RBRick Baker
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... first professional gig that you got where it was like, "Holy shit, I'm getting paid to do makeup."
- RBRick Baker
Well, I mean, the first time I ever got paid, actually, I think I did a makeup for a stage actor who wanted to be old. And, uh, I charged him $75 and, um-... which was, you know, more money than I ever gotten from anything before (laughs) . You know, like I said- You just came up with a number in your head? Yeah. Well, I kind of somehow figured it out (laughs) , you know. But, uh, anyways, I, I, I did these pieces for him and, uh, he lived, uh, off that Pasadena freeway, that one that has a weird right angled, uh, uh, off-ramps, you know. And my dad drove me there 'cause I couldn't... I didn't drive at the time. And, and he actually had a makeup kit and had some hair pieces in it and a bunch of stuff. And he said, "You know, I will trade you this. Instead of giving you the $75, I'll give you this makeup case and with... full of this stuff." And I was like, "Yeah, that's really cool," you know. But my dad wanted to teach me, you know, responsibilities and stuff. And this was around the time I, uh, I think I was like 16 and was gonna try to drive. And he goes, "Your... My insurance is gonna go up and what you have to do is you have to get that money and you have to give me the money to... for the rate of the insurance that's going up." I was like, "Oh man, I really want this makeup kit," you know? (laughs) But, but I mean, I had amazing parents who... I mean, I wouldn't have been... I wouldn't be who I am if it wasn't for them. I mean, they- That's cool. ... they supported me, uh, in my crazy decision to, to make monsters for a living. Well, they must've been so happy when it paid off, though. Yeah. I was glad that they lived long enough to see that and I got to bring my parents to the Oscars a few times. Oh, wow. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, they were, they were very proud. And, and, uh, and you know, it was funny 'cause I mean, I had like, my mom's, uh, brother and my uncle would, you know, say stuff like, you know, "When is Ricky gonna stop doing this silly stuff and do something he can make a living at?" You know? "And when is he gonna grow up?" Oh, those people. Yeah. Oh, those people. But, you know, my dad- Ugh. ... basically never grew up and I knew I never was going to, you know. I- What was your dad... What did he do for a living? Well, he did a bunch of different things. He, he was a high school dropout because he, he had to help his family, his, his mother and father, you know, pay bills. And he had a variety of not very good jobs. He worked at Sears as a salesman, he drove a truck, he did stuff. But he was always... He, he was very creative and it was kind of held down in his lifetime, you know, "Don't do that. You can't- Right. ... you know, do something you can make a living at." You need to be serious. And because of that, I benefited from that. Yeah. He supported the creativity. And when I, um... I think I was a sophomore in high school, he decided he wanted to try to make a living as an artist. And we lived on my mom's bank teller salary for a, a number of years. He hardly made any money at all. Um, but he was happy, you know. And, and he, uh, uh, becau- I mean, like I said, he, he supported my creativity and he was really my first teacher. He, he sh- showed me what you could do with paint, he knew a little bit about sculpture, you know. Uh, he, uh, he was also a fan of monster movies, you know, and he- Mm. ... you know, he saw, you know, the Frederick March Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde when it came out, you know, and told me all about it. And that was a movie that they didn't have on TV that I really wanted to see- Mm. ... you know? And he said, uh, when he saw it i- in the theaters, you know, he would h- hide his eyes or hide by the seat, you know, and I so wanted to see that. And, and he also said, you know War of the Worlds, the, uh, George Pal- Oh, yeah. ... you know, going, "That was so cool," and then the sound effects were great and, and our... That was never on either. And when I was in the seventh grade, I think it was, I, uh, decided to get on the student council for... The main reason this was my plan was, uh, I suggested that we could raise money for the school by having... showing movies after school. We could rent 16 miller movie... 16-millimeter movies and show them and charge admission. And I basically just subs- went through all the movies I hadn't seen that I wanted to see- (laughs) ... and, and got those, you know. And there were maybe four or five people that showed up to see them, but I was happy, you know. Oh, that's awesome. So, yeah. What was the first film that you did special effects for? First film was a film called The Octoman and it's kind of a cult classic because it's such a crappy movie (laughs) , you know. It was shot in 10 days, uh, at, at... all at Bronson Canyon, uh, in, in, in Griffith Park. Yeah. What year was this? Uh, nine... Let's see. I graduated from high school in 1969 and I went to... two years to a junior college. Uh, '69, '70, '71, uh, I guess it was, so- So you went from that to Star Wars only like five or six years later, right? Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. And King Kong and, and all, all this other stuff we did. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Played... There's the Octoman. (laughs) The Octoman. (laughs) I didn't design it. Oh my goodness. Look at that thing. I, I... Yeah. But I mean, this was... I was a full-time student, I had six weeks- (laughs) ... and like, I think $1,000 to make this suit. And, uh, so I... after school, uh, I, I... and I got my... a friend... The very first job I ever had... Actually this... and this, again, happened because of my dad. When he was a truck driver, uh, delivering plumbing supplies, uh, he went to the wrong building and the building he went into was, uh, called Clokey Productions and they made Gumby and Davey and Goliath, stop-motion animation. Mm. Which I did stop-motion as well. Big Ray Harryhausen fan, you know. Um, and for some reason... I grew up in Covina, which is east of Hol- you know, LA, like 30 or 40 miles, and wasn't... and there wasn't anything film-related out there, but for some reason, Clokey's was out there, um, I think because it was cheaper rent. And he... uh, I, I was... my... on my quarter a week allowance when I found a place I could buy rubber, it was like eight... almost $9 for a quart of rubber and, you know, took me a lot of weeks and a lot of mowing lawns and a lot of stuff to save up that money. And I said, "I need a... I need a job." So I, I didn't have a car, we only had one car in the family and, uh, you know, I went to any place I could walk to, uh, supermarkets, you know, bus boys, all that stuff. Nobody wanted me and, um, my dad said, "Oh, I remember this place and it did stop-motion and you do stop-motion, you know, maybe." So I went there with my box of stuff, you know, (laughs) and, and it was summer vacation between my junior and senior year of high school and they said, "Start tomorrow." Uh, got paid minimum wage which I think was, you know, $1.25 or something at the time. But that place was like a magnet for any weird kid or any guy that was like a stop-motion fan. Any stop-motion person would show up there at one point or another and I met this guy named Doug Beswick who was a few years older than me.... and we became, again, fast friends. You know, he read Famous Monsters. He was a Ray Harryhausen fan. And Doug, uh, when I did this uh, this uh, Octoman film, Doug had a, uh, a little workshop and we did it in his workshop, and we did it together.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RBRick Baker
But yeah, it was a... Uh, and- and it was a real introduction to the film industry because it was the very first days filming, I'm filming in Gr- in Bronson Canyon, Griffith Park. Uh, we show up, we went in Doug's 57 Chevy, it had Octoman in the backseat, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
And, and we show up there, uh, and looking around and there's nobody there. And I go, "What the hell?" You know? So, and this is, you know, before cellphones and all that shit. Uh, so we'd have to go, we went back down the hill, uh, down Bronson Canyon to, like there was a market there and we got a payphone, called the production office and it was like, "Oh yeah, uh, we pushed one day. We just forgot to tell you," you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
And it's like a movie called The Octoman, you forgot to tell the people who were making The Octoman, the title character of the movie, that you weren't filming? (laughs) You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. (laughs)
- RBRick Baker
And it was also... I mean, they-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a perfect introduction to the movie industry, though.
- RBRick Baker
Oh, it was. And- and I learned that- that, you know, you can't believe anything they tell you. You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
I mean, the- it was designed by somebody else and, uh, I got this job handed down through people I met at Clohies. Uh, it was gonna be stop motion at one point. They decided that that was too expensive, they're gonna make a suit. And the first thing I did was a little maquette. And, uh, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
A little what?
- RBRick Baker
Maquette. A sc- uh, a small sculpture of the design. But I said there's... Because he had, they- they tried to figure out how they could do eight tentacles on a man, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RBRick Baker
And his feet kind of like turned into tentacles, and it kind of split off in- into a back tentacle. But I said, "I think they look like elf shoes." And it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- RBRick Baker
... and it's not a good f- way for me to join the two things together. And, and it's like, "Kid, don't worry about it. There's only gonna be one shot of The Octoman in the movie where you actually see it. The rest of the time he's just gonna be a shadow or a glimpse, you know? But we'll have a money shot where you can, you know, make sure it looks great." (laughs) And the movie starts out with a closeup of his feet, you know? Basically, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
Uh, and- and, you know, it was, uh, it was a real introduction. I- I thought it was gonna be like working on eight millimeter, millimeter movies like I did as a kid.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
You know, everybody just jumps in and we're, "We're making a movie, let's do it." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. It wasn't that. And the DP, the director of photography, because I had long hair and Doug had long hair, he called us the girls. This was at a time when, you know, long hair was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, right.
- RBRick Baker
You know, "Get the girls to get their silly monster suit out," and you know... (laughs)
- 36:47 – 40:44
Stop-motion heroes and meeting legends: Ray Harryhausen’s one-man artistry
- JRJoe Rogan
My kids found out about Harryhausen from, uh, Monsters Inc.
- RBRick Baker
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh, they were like, "Who's that? Who's Harryhausen?"
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I said, "Well, he's the guy that made all the early monster movies."
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so then we sat down and we watched King Kong together. And they were scared at first.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're like, "Oh, my God, I'm scared." But they started laughing when they saw King Kong. It's like-
- RBRick Baker
The stop-motion, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I mean, it's- it's, today, in comparison to, you know, even in comparison to your version of King Kong-
- RBRick Baker
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... when you could, you know, make it mechanized and, you know, it's just, it's- it's amazing when you think about how far we came.
- RBRick Baker
But, you know, the... Yes, the stop-motion. And- and Harryhausen didn't animate on King Kong, he did Mighty Joe Young.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- RBRick Baker
Uh, you know, but King Kong is what inspired him. That was Willis O'Brien and, and Pete Peterson who were the animators on that. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
He did, um, the... What was the, um, the o- ... The one with Medusa, did he do that one?
- RBRick Baker
Uh, Harryhausen, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRick Baker
Uh, Clash of the Titans.
- JRJoe Rogan
Clash of the Titans.
- RBRick Baker
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, that was him, right?
- RBRick Baker
Well, again, and Ray was a one-man show. You know, in stop-motion, you know, it's 24 frames a second, you move a l-
- JRJoe Rogan
He did it all himself?
- RBRick Baker
All himself. And when you're animating seven skele- ... In Jason and the Argonauts, there's seven skeletons fighting seven guys.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. He did all that himself?
- RBRick Baker
Himself. And I became, I, uh, I became friends with Ray. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RBRick Baker
And I would say to him, and, and this was during the time when computer stuff was starting out, you know, and, you know, his movies were $50,000 movies, you know (laughs) . You know, the whole budget of the movie, you know, not just his effects, you know, early ones that he did, you know. And I said, "You know, doesn't it piss you off that now th- they get millions of dollars and there's hundreds of people working on stuff that you did by yourself, you know?" And-
- 40:44 – 56:18
American Werewolf in London: designing the hound from hell and building the transformation
- JRJoe Rogan
And when you look back, like, what was the first thing that you did where you're like, "Okay, that was a good one"?
- RBRick Baker
Well, you know, it's funny, once you do something and you look at it, you see all the things that are wrong with it, you know. And, and I always say, "I wish I could see the film before I make this stuff," because so many times the thing that's supposed to be the most important thing just isn't. And something that you, like, threw together is all of a sudden the most important thing, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
I mean, I, I mean, A- American Werewolf was probably the one where ... Uh, I mean, that's one that really put me on the map. I mean, a lot of people say King Kong was, but, um, uh, American Werewolf, you know, I, I looked at it and I thought, "Well, that's pretty cool." You know, but I also went, "God, I wish we did this and I wish I d- you know, didn't do that." You know, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, man, it just-
- RBRick Baker
I see so many things that I would do differently now. I don't know-
- JRJoe Rogan
That movie's a masterpiece. It's a-
- RBRick Baker
Well, it's a great film.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean-
- RBRick Baker
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a great film.
- RBRick Baker
I mean, and I ... My second film was Schlock, which was John Landis's first film.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- RBRick Baker
Uh, and I was 20 and he was 21.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
And I had, again, I think I had six weeks and I think I had $1,000, again, to make ... John played the Schlockthropus. I don't know if you've ever seen Schlock.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, never saw it.
- RBRick Baker
That's another one you gotta watch.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
Uh, low-budget, you know, movie shot by a kid basically, you know. Um, with a, uh, you know, and he ... Like I said, he played this ... It was based ... Have you ever seen Trog?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRick Baker
Joan Crawford?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RBRick Baker
He saw Trog and couldn't believe that they made this movie, so he was making like a joke-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
... a joke version of Schlock, you know. Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RBRick Baker
Uh, and, uh, he wanted to play this ape man character. And it's like, "Well, okay, you know, but you're gonna be the director too?" So, you know, he had to be on set at 6:00 in the morning whether Schlock worked or not, all made up, you know.
- 56:18 – 1:00:12
Star Wars cantina add-ons: masks, thrift creativity, and ‘shooting it in post’
- JRJoe Rogan
Was that, was that the case with the cantina scene in Star Wars? 'Cause the Star Wars scene, um, there's, that's a, that's a crazy scene because you've got so many characters in that scene. And today, when you go back and look at it, like-
- RBRick Baker
It's pretty cheesy, yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... you see masks.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
Well, I, that came about, uh, or- originally, the, you know, the film was done in England. Nobody knew Star Wars was gonna be Star Wars, you know? Stuart Freeborn was the makeup artist in the film, and he did the Wookiee. He did the cantina scene originally, but George wanted to embellish on it and didn't like a lot of the stuff that he did. So at ILM, which was in Van Nuys then, Industrial Light & Magic, when it first started, the guys that were doing the visual effects for, uh, for that, uh, for Star Wars. My friends that I met at Cloke is Dennis Muren and Ken Ralston were, were, uh, shooting the, uh, the special effects. And George came in and said, "Do you know anybody that can make a mask? 'Cause I need, I wanna add some masks to the, to the cantina scene." And they go, "Yeah, we do." So they called me in. Uh, so I went over to Valjean Avenue on, and George on a flatbed editor showed me the sequence as it existed, and I was flipping out. I was like, "What a cool idea to have this bar full of aliens," you know? And I go, "Well, let's do, you know, let's do, we could do one that has like, you know, like, that's kind of like an alien pirate that's got a, like, alien parrot character in his" ... Nothing goes... Well, we, b- we don't have any money, you know? It's like (laughs) , you know, uh, we've already spent the money, you know? It, it, we don't have a lot of money for this. I just want masks, uh, you know? And I said, "Well, I, you know what? I have a bunch of stuff I made myself for fun that we can just throw in there." There, there's a devil guy that my-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
... that I made that five years before Star Wars, you know? There's a werewolf guy and another-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
... guy with glowy eyes. I made those before Star Wars. I just said, "Oh, you can use them." Uh, I thought they were gonna be stuck in the background, you know? And, but we did like the cantina band, you know? The first-
- JRJoe Rogan
(sings)
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. The first aliens that you see, almost all the first aliens you see are all the ones that we did. I think we did 30.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RBRick Baker
And, but what was great-
- JRJoe Rogan
There he is.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah, that was one of the masks I made before, uh, he's good. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Jamie's the best.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Play that, Jamie. Yeah, that was such a great scene too, though.
- RBRick Baker
Oh, uh, these are Stuart Freeborn's things, you know? But the thing that's great, the cantina band was never there. And when you see the movie, you think it's there. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
... uh, I've used this so many times where I say, "Can we shoot this like in post-production?" That's the devil guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
Yeah. And these guys were the guys that we, one of the guys, uh, some of the guys we made.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you shot the alien band in post-
- RBRick Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and stuck them in there.
- RBRick Baker
And, and, and in Los Angeles in a, by different people at a different time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- RBRick Baker
And y- I've said to, you know, when I say to people, "Let's, can we shoot this in post?" And 'cause what happens, you know, most directors don't like dealing with this sh- this shit, you know?
- 1:00:12 – 1:08:50
Thriller: zombie dancers, time constraints, and the making-of that inspired a generation
- RBRick Baker
And, and, uh, and, uh, it's like American Werewolf too. Every transformation after American Werewolf was basically the same transformation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
You know, they did the same things, you know? Uh, and it happened on Thriller too. You know, I mean, I, because of American Werewolf, when, uh ...... Michael came to, uh, John Landis to do Thriller, you know. He'd liked American Werewolf and he wanted to do, um... He, he wanted it to be a short film. He di- didn't want to call it a music video.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
And John contacted me and, and said, you know, "Uh, Michael Jackson wants to do this American Werewolf, like, music video," you know, and for the song Thriller, which I hadn't heard. And I was like, you know, "Michael Jackson? Little Michael Jackson in the Jackson 5?" "Yeah." You know, he's not called that anymore, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
Uh, and so he goes... John says, "I'll send you a cassette. Uh, listen to it and get some ideas." You know, so I... And this was when we had little Walkman, you know? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RBRick Baker
And I'd listen to it with one, and I had another one that I would like, like pre-associate ideas when I was listening, you know? And, and, uh, and, uh, it was like... There's... I thought... Well, these... We came up with the idea of doing these zombie dancers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Baker
And, and I said, "Well, you know, I'm sure you're gonna hire the dancers way in advance so they can learn the dance and stuff." And he goes, "No, they, they, they're, they only need like a couple of days." So they hired them like three days before we filmed and I went, "I can't... That doesn't give me time to take life masks and do all the stuff that I would do. And these zombies should be really cool," you know? So I said, "How about if the first zombies you see are like me and my crew? Because we already have life masks. We can start those today, and we can spend the time on making some cool ones." So I'm in Thriller coming out of a crypt like this, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RBRick Baker
And (laughs) and all my crew basically are the first guys that come out of the ground-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RBRick Baker
... and break through windows. But the dancers, I said, "I'll figure out a way we can do them," and I... 'Cause I had a number of life masks of different people in small/medium and large male, small/medium and large female, and we sculpted... Uh, we kept pieces. We called them like bandit masks. They were kind of like this around this area, like a... Well, a bandit in a, in a m- movie, yeah.
Episode duration: 1:54:48
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode cRUy8E6ueeo
