Joe Rogan Experience #1389 - Chris Kresser Debunks "The Gamechangers" Documentary

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Ladies and gentlemen, Chris…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Kresser.

   2. CKChris Kresser0:05

      Joe, good to be back.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      How are you, buddy? Good to see you.

   4. CKChris Kresser0:07

      Great. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      Uh, we are here because of the film The Game Changers. Um, I watched it. I watched it today. Uh, I watched the whole thing from start to finish. Um, and I have to say before we even start, I like the guy who's in it very much. James Wilks, very nice guy.

   6. CKChris Kresser0:24

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      He's, uh, an excellent fighter. He won The Ultimate Fighter. Um, and, uh, I don't think he's a bad person.

   8. CKChris Kresser0:31

      I, I, I've only had a little bit of interacts with him just over the past couple of days via email. He seems like a, a really great guy.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:37

      Yeah, very good guy.

   10. CKChris Kresser0:38

       Genuine.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       I, I would... Well, we're gonna talk. We're just gonna get into it. So, let's-

   12. CKChris Kresser0:43

       Let's do it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       ... what, what did, what was your thoughts on the film, and, uh, what did, what stood out immediately?

   14. CKChris Kresser0:50

       Okay. So, little bit of context, um, you know, I think this film was the best of all the vegan documentaries that have been made. I'll just say that upfront. I think it's pretty well done as a film.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       Yes.

   16. CKChris Kresser1:02

       You, you know, it's got a big budget, pretty good storyline.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       James Cameron, Jackie Chan-

   18. CKChris Kresser1:07

       Lots of celebrities.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       ... Arnold Schwarzenegger.

   20. CKChris Kresser1:08

       Arnold, um, you know, it's good graphics. Like, it's just-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CKChris Kresser1:14

       ... a well-made film.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       Yeah.

   24. CKChris Kresser1:15

       And I think it's, especially for someone who doesn't have the background to, you know, or, uh, science awareness to critique some of the claims, it's gonna be really persuasive and compelling. And I've definitely... You know, whenever a film like this comes out, my email inbox just blows up. Like, "Have you seen this film?"

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       Right.

   26. CKChris Kresser1:32

       "What? Oh my God." You know, like-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       Right.

   28. CKChris Kresser1:34

       ... "I'm eating meat. I'm gonna kill myself." (laughs) And-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       Right.

   30. CKChris Kresser1:36

       ... it's just like, uh, and-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      films will get l- way less views-

   2. CKChris Kresser15:02

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      ... than the, the actual film itself.

   4. CKChris Kresser15:04

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:04

      That's just how it goes. Nobody's gonna watch. And so especially the people that are already convinced, for them, it's like, "Excellent, I knew Jesus was real."

   6. CKChris Kresser15:11

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      "Now I've got the proof." You know? I mean, it's really like that. It becomes-

   8. CKChris Kresser15:15

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:16

      The, the ideology becomes so strong, it becomes like a religion. And look, I've been accused of it from doing it from a, a meat perspective.

   10. CKChris Kresser15:23

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:23

       And I understand. I understand that you would think that if you had an opposing vegan or vegetarian perspective. I, I totally understand. But, man, you know, when, when we saw it with a, with the Joel Kahn discussion, and you see it al- almost every time someone who's actually informed has a conversation with one of these influencers, like, they're not being 100% accurate, objective, or even honest in a lot of cases.

   12. CKChris Kresser15:49

       Yeah. I mean, there's a great Leon Festinger quote, I don't know if you've heard it. "A man with conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him the facts and figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point."

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:04

       The o- the best argument, in my opinion, is this factory farming is disgusting and that the cruelty of treating animals like, uh, like a commodity and serving them up for slaughter in these horrific conditions, these factory farming conditions and these horrible pens that we've all seen, that's the argument for veganism.

   14. CKChris Kresser16:23

       I agree with-

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       But when we're talking about performance and health, this is where it just gets very frustrating for me.

   16. CKChris Kresser16:29

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:29

       'Cause like, if you wanna make an argument that you should probably follow a more complicated diet, more complicated meaning that it's more difficult for you to acquire in some cities, you have to be a little bit more careful about getting supplementation with vitamin B12 and-

   18. CKChris Kresser16:45

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:45

       ... uh, and essential amino acids, you gotta be a little bit more careful if you wanna maintain a healthy, robust life. It's possible to do that, but it's a little more complicated. And if you wanna say, "I wanna live like that because the way I feel about eating animals makes me feel terrible, I don't wanna have any part of that, and I found out that I can not have a part of that and I can live my life," that's great, but that's not what they're saying.

   20. CKChris Kresser17:08

       No, and there's a lot of problems with that argument too. I wanna come back and spend some time on that.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       Sure. We can do-

   22. CKChris Kresser17:13

       But I-

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       ... it right now before we move on because it is-

   24. CKChris Kresser17:15

       Okay.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:16

       We just covered it.

   26. CKChris Kresser17:17

       All right. Uh, can ... So I wanna go back to the RDA.

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:20

       Yes. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We won't forget.

   28. CKChris Kresser17:20

       I don't wanna forget that 'cause that's super important.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       Yes.

   30. CKChris Kresser17:25

       Um, yeah, so where to start with that? Um, so first of all, you know, the, the idea that plant-based agriculture doesn't kill animals is just false. I mean, there have been studies that show that particularly mono cropping type of plant agriculture kills far more animals than are killed in, you know, from eating cows, for example. The insects, rodents, you know, mice, birds, fish, all, uh, you know, killed in the process of industrial agriculture, and so that presents an-... an ethical dilemma, really. If you are saying I'm a vegan because I don't want my food choices to involve killing animals, is killing, you know, a whole bunch of small non-mammal animals better than killing mammals? Or what about killing more small animals than one cow?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   This is a natural…

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      to use equipment to-

   2. CKChris Kresser30:01

      This is a natural cycle.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:02

      ... achieve this? So it just has to be a certain amount of plant life in, in their area?

   4. CKChris Kresser30:06

      And so the way that... I mean, like Joel Salatin, for example, from Polyface Farms, and, and Savory Institute, the w- they basically educate farmers on how to, um, rotate their livestock. A- again, this is not my area of expertise, but rather than just having the cattle stay in the same place the whole time, like in a feedlot, they're moving the cattle around, the cattle are, are pooping, then they bring the chickens to where that was, th- you know, where the cattle were, and they, they move it around in a way, again, that I don't fully understand. But the effect of this is that the amount of carbon that is sequestered from the atmosphere is greater than the amount of, uh, CO2 that is emitted. And this, these lifecycle analyses have been done and published in the literature. It's true that right now, that type of, um, holistically managed livestock is not very common, but that doesn't mean that it's not what we should be doing. And, and, you know, this is the thing, like with the film, I agree with the problem that they, you know, the premise, which is that the feedlot beef production is a nightmare, you know, of e- it, it can be bad for the environment, and we have to do something about it. Where we disagree is what the solution is.

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:23

      Yes.

   6. CKChris Kresser31:23

      You know, they go to a plant-based diet or fake meat or lab meat. I go to regenerative, holistically managed livestock.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:32

      Okay. Um, so this animal produ- like the, the, the, the regenerative livestock production, the- doing it in this method, is that sufficient to feed everyone? The production? I mean, how much land do you need to do something like this?

   8. CKChris Kresser31:47

      So I, I knew you were gonna ask that question.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:50

      Okay.

   10. CKChris Kresser31:50

       And I talked to, um, Savory Institute about this and a few other people, and, um, basically, one response is it's the only way we're gonna feed everybody because, as I mentioned, there are only 60 harvests left because of soil degradation. So continually, you know, trying to scale up industrial plant agriculture with soy and corn and, and all of these kinds of crops is gonna further degrade the soil. And at some point, we're not gonna have any (laughs) soil left to grow stuff with.

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       That's an important factor, right? And we, we should talk about this, that you need compost and you need fertilizer, and you need something that replenishes the soil. And doing these large-scale monoculture crops, when you have these enormous areas, they're just depleting, right? They're just pulling-

   12. CKChris Kresser32:38

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:38

       ... and then they have to add.

   14. CKChris Kresser32:39

       You can't make something from nothing.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       They have to add bags of minerals, right?

   16. CKChris Kresser32:42

       That's the thing. We're not just, we're not choosing between like, you know, two, one really good alternative and one terrible alternative. That's not a choice, (laughs) like you were saying-

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       Right, right.

   18. CKChris Kresser32:52

       ... before the show. Like, eh, that's not even a choice. You just do, you just obviously do the right thing. We're choosing, it's like on the one hand, if we try to scale up plant agriculture in an environment where, according to the F- FAO, our soils are in only, quote, "Fair, poor, or very poor condition," and we only have 60 harvests less, left due to rapidly deteriorating soil due to erosion and nutrient depletion, then we desperately need new methods of restoring healthy soil. And if we can do that with regenerative, holistically managed livestock, which has been shown, you know, in the scientific literature to be possible, then that may be the only way we can feed everybody.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:33

       So we would need to almost have a reversal, if that was the case, and have more animal agriculture than plant agriculture.

   20. CKChris Kresser33:41

       But not the way it's being done now-

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:43

       Right, it would have to be-

   22. CKChris Kresser33:44

       ... in the feedlot.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:45

       So they would have to be l- like Joel Salatin set up-

   24. CKChris Kresser33:48

       Yeah, so there, there-

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:49

       ... where he's got Polyface Farms.

   26. CKChris Kresser33:50

       ... we would need i- three things to happen. One would be we'd need to return all the crop lands that are being used to feed livestock in feedlots right now to grassland. And number two, we'd need to put all unused land, like the rocky, hilly soil that, or, or land that can't be used for plant agriculture into production f- with animals. And number three, farmer, farmers and ranchers would need to adopt regenerative practices, you know. So I'm not saying... This is an enormous undertaking.

   27. JRJoe Rogan34:21

       Yes.

   28. CKChris Kresser34:21

       We're not, we're talking... But so is feeding the world with plant-based agriculture.

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:26

       Right.

   30. CKChris Kresser34:26

       Like, whichever direction we go, we're talking about-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Right. …

   1. CKChris Kresser45:00

      the health food shoppers study, where they, they only looked at people who shopped at health food stores, thinking, "Okay, these people are at least thinking about it a little bit." (laughs) You know?

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:09

      Right.

   3. CKChris Kresser45:09

      It's, it's still not controlling for all the factors-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:11

      Right.

   5. CKChris Kresser45:11

      ... but they're saying, "Let's look at people who shop at a place like Whole Foods, and then let's con- look at the, like compare lifespan between vegetarians and vegans and omnivores." Well, guess what? They both, both groups live a lot longer than the general population, but there was no difference in lifespan between people who ate meat and vegetarians and vegans.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:29

      The, the premise is that meat is poison, and so when you add meat to these, these studies, that people with meat are g- well, they're eating poison, and the people without meat, look, no poison. I mean, this is, but what about all the other shit?

   7. CKChris Kresser45:42

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:42

      This is what's so crazy about it. Like how can you have a study where you don't take into account how many people drink or smoke?

   9. CKChris Kresser45:48

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:48

       And you just add the meat. Th- It's, it's insanity.

   11. CKChris Kresser45:51

       It's, that's the healthy user bias. And I mean-

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:53

       Yeah.

   13. CKChris Kresser45:53

       ... this, this is the, the problem and what makes my job so difficult, is like people have heard that meat is bad for 50, what, 60 years, you know? So someone can say, "Meat is bad." That's three words. And for me to unpack that, I have to talk about healthy user bias. I have to talk about problems with data collection and food frequency questionnaires. I have to talk about relative versus absolute risk. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       Yeah.

   15. CKChris Kresser46:18

       You know, I mean, people are just like, "What?"

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       W- Well that's the problem-

   17. CKChris Kresser46:21

       "I have no idea."

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:21

       ... with any of this data, and it's one of the beautiful things about being able to talk about it on a podcast with a moron like me-

   19. CKChris Kresser46:26

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       ... is at least you're getting a conversation-

   21. CKChris Kresser46:28

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:29

       ... where people are gonna ask questions like, "What the fuck is he saying?" So I get to ask you that, and then people get to hear it. It's, you know, th- this is a very strange time when it comes to information, because so much of it is available, but almost too much.

   23. CKChris Kresser46:42

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:42

       And then when you realize, when you start trying to study nutrition, there is so much to learn. There's so many factors-

   25. CKChris Kresser46:51

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:51

       ... and there's so many biases.

   27. CKChris Kresser46:53

       Well, where, I like, I listened to your interview with Matt Taibbi, and, and, you know, the point I was thinking about it is you were t- talking about it politically, how we're just living in echo chambers now.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:03

       Yes.

   29. CKChris Kresser47:03

       So you go on social media, you're republican, you're only gonna see stuff about, that, that caters to your view, and the algorithms are even optimized for that because they know that you'll click on that more and that will lead to more ad dollars.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:17

       Yes.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Hm. …

   1. CKChris Kresser1:00:00

      a p- you know, 70% pea with 30% rice to get the right amino acid ratio easier with powders.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:07

      Hm.

   3. CKChris Kresser1:00:07

      So, like, Patrick Baboumian is a good example of that, you know. Did you see the video that Bobby Gei- Guist made-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

      No.

   5. CKChris Kresser1:00:15

      ... of his o- oh, so there was actually a video-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

      Oh, is that the one that you sent me? Yes, I did see that, yes.

   7. CKChris Kresser1:00:20

      There's a video that Patrick made himself of his own diet-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:23

      Yes.

   9. CKChris Kresser1:00:23

      ... um, on, you know, what he eats on a daily basis, and it turns out to be a boatload of protein powder (laughs) and just shakes with all kinds of powders and supplements and things like that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

       Mm-hmm, yeah.

   11. CKChris Kresser1:00:35

       So yeah, we can go through it. So-Uh, he starts with a bunch of different supplements in the morning, multivitamin, nutritional yeast, zinc, glucosamine, magnesium, calcium, B12, and iron. Then he has a protein shake with soy protein powder, creatine, and beta-alanine, which probably is because he's aware of the research showing lower levels of muscle creatine and carnosine in, in vegans. Um, beta-alanine c- and creatine would a- address that. Then he has a post-workout smoothie with soy or pea protein powder, glutamine, beta-alanine, creatine, and dried greens. And then his first solid meal of the day is fried falafel, french fries, soy sausage, fried peppers, and tomatoes. And then he has some more protein shakes and smoothies throughout the day, so I don't know. That doesn't strike me as a super healthy way to eat.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

       What- what do you ... What problem d- do you have with that?

   13. CKChris Kresser1:01:30

       Well, first of all, I think we should primarily get nutrients from food whenever we can. I'm not against supplementation. I think there's a role for it, of course, like, you know, especially with things like vitamin D-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:40

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CKChris Kresser1:01:40

       ... that you might not be able to get enough of from food, or therapeutic supplementation if you're dealing with a health problem. But, like, getting the m- like eating a diet that is not sufficient in the amount of nutrients that you need and then using supplements to make up, you know, to- to address that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:58

       Well, in his situation, his- he's got a very unique situation in that he's a- he's a strength athlete. That's all that he's doing is trying to lift really, really heavy things, so he needs to maintain a certain amount of bulk.

   17. CKChris Kresser1:02:09

       He has to have enormous-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

       Yeah.

   19. CKChris Kresser1:02:11

       ... amount of protein and calories.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

       Yeah, enormous amount of protein. He has to be ... And he's very heavy, you know, and that- that sport is also ... That's a steroid sport.

   21. CKChris Kresser1:02:21

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:21

       I mean, it's just one of those sports where it's like bodybuilding.

   23. CKChris Kresser1:02:24

       Pretty much everybody-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:24

       It's a steroid sport.

   25. CKChris Kresser1:02:25

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:26

       Um, so you're eating massive amounts of quantities. You're taking chemicals. L- yeah. It might not be the healthiest thing.

   27. CKChris Kresser1:02:33

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:33

       But it's also, like, just the- the sport itself might not be the healthiest thing. I mean, we've seen them carry people on the yo- he was doing that in the film.

   29. CKChris Kresser1:02:40

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:40

       Like, that c- that's not good for your back. (laughs)
6. 1:15:00 – 1:15:29

   Yes. …

   1. CKChris Kresser1:15:00

      your muscle tissue breaks down, and it rebuilds-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:02

      Yes.

   3. CKChris Kresser1:15:02

      ... stronger the next time.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:03

      So these folks that are talking about, "Don't eat vegetables 'cause vegetables give you these things that are bad for your body," like, o- okay, y- are you sure?

   5. CKChris Kresser1:15:11

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:11

      I mean, there's a lot of work to be done here, folks. There's a lot of fucking research to be read into.

   7. CKChris Kresser1:15:16

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:16

      And there's a lot of conversations you have to have with people far more educated than you on the subjects.

   9. CKChris Kresser1:15:20

      I, I think, uh, often, as humans, we have a hard time differentiating between, like, our own experience and what, you know, works for us, and then-

Episode duration: 2:51:02