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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1389 - Chris Kresser Debunks "The Gamechangers" Documentary

Watch James Wilks from The Game Changers debate Chris Kresser on his critiques of the film here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4Apc2Xk7Q& Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Paleo nutrition, and functional and integrative medicine. Link to notes from this podcast by Chris Kresser: http://kresser.co/gamechangers

Joe RoganhostChris Kresserguest
Nov 21, 20192h 51mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:03 – 3:20

    Why respond to The Game Changers: persuasive filmmaking vs scientific rigor

    1. JR

      Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Kresser.

    2. CK

      Joe, good to be back.

    3. JR

      How are you, buddy? Good to see you.

    4. CK

      Great. Yeah.

    5. JR

      Uh, we are here because of the film The Game Changers. Um, I watched it. I watched it today. Uh, I watched the whole thing from start to finish. Um, and I have to say before we even start, I like the guy who's in it very much. James Wilks, very nice guy.

    6. CK

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      He's, uh, an excellent fighter. He won The Ultimate Fighter. Um, and, uh, I don't think he's a bad person.

    8. CK

      I, I, I've only had a little bit of interacts with him just over the past couple of days via email. He seems like a, a really great guy.

    9. JR

      Yeah, very good guy.

    10. CK

      Genuine.

    11. JR

      I, I would... Well, we're gonna talk. We're just gonna get into it. So, let's-

    12. CK

      Let's do it.

    13. JR

      ... what, what did, what was your thoughts on the film, and, uh, what did, what stood out immediately?

    14. CK

      Okay. So, little bit of context, um, you know, I think this film was the best of all the vegan documentaries that have been made. I'll just say that upfront. I think it's pretty well done as a film.

    15. JR

      Yes.

    16. CK

      You, you know, it's got a big budget, pretty good storyline.

    17. JR

      James Cameron, Jackie Chan-

    18. CK

      Lots of celebrities.

    19. JR

      ... Arnold Schwarzenegger.

    20. CK

      Arnold, um, you know, it's good graphics. Like, it's just-

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CK

      ... a well-made film.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. CK

      And I think it's, especially for someone who doesn't have the background to, you know, or, uh, science awareness to critique some of the claims, it's gonna be really persuasive and compelling. And I've definitely... You know, whenever a film like this comes out, my email inbox just blows up. Like, "Have you seen this film?"

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. CK

      "What? Oh my God." You know, like-

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. CK

      ... "I'm eating meat. I'm gonna kill myself." (laughs) And-

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. CK

      ... it's just like, uh, and-

  2. 3:20 – 5:53

    The gladiator opening: “barley eaters” and selective framing

    1. JR

      The beginning of it I thought was so strange, when James talked about being injured and doing all the research that he did, which, uh, seems like an extraordinary amount of r- what did he say, like 1,000 hours of research? And that the thing that stood out was that the Roman gladiators, at least in this one particular location, um, according to the analysis of their bones, uh, it appears that they had a vegetarian diet.

    2. CK

      Yeah. So-

    3. JR

      That they ate a lot of grain.

    4. CK

      That was strange too. I mean, first of all, gladiators were basically prisoners of war or criminals, so the diet they're being fed is not-

    5. JR

      Prison food. Yeah.

    6. CK

      Yeah. It's prison food.

    7. JR

      They're, they're slaves that are forced to fight to the death.

    8. CK

      They had a life expectancy of about two years once they became a gladiator. And, um, it, it's interesting. They featured Fabian Konz, who is a scientist, you remember-

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. CK

      ... who they talked to and definitely seemed to kind of buy into the plant-based diet idea, or the idea that they were, um, vegetarian, you know, by design or, or by choice. Uh, they didn't talk to his collaborator, Carl, Carl Grossschmidt, who's been quoted in the media saying... Here's a quote. Uh, and by the way, all of the references, full bibliography, show notes, everything are at kresser.co/gamechangers 'cause I want this to be totally evidence-based. People can check what I'm saying right there. So he said, "The vegetarian diet had nothing to do with poverty or animal rights. Gladiators, it seems, were fat. Consuming a lot of simple carbohydrates such as barley and legumes like beans was designed for survival in the arena. Packing in the carbs also packed on the pounds. Gladiators needed subcutaneous fat. A fat cushion protects you from cut wounds and shields nerves and blood vessels in a fight." So they were basically fattening them up so they could survive longer in, in the arena. It's not an ideal diet for, you know, fighting and muscle protein synthesis and nutrition. It was basically to fatten them up so they could survive longer.

    11. JR

      Yeah, this seems so obvious that I couldn't believe it was actually in the film. And it seemed, it just seemed blatantly deceptive because-

    12. CK

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      ... everyone knows what their life was. It's not like these were these elite athletes that were competing in the Olympic Games. These were people that they were sending out to die for other people's enjoyment.

    14. CK

      Right. And the name, uh, um, my Latin's terrible. I bet... I think it was hortiari or something-

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CK

      It means, like, barley eater.

    17. JR

      Yes.

    18. CK

      It was an epithet. It was an insult. It wasn't, you know-

    19. JR

      Yes.

    20. CK

      ... a compliment.

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. CK

      It was like, "Ha ha, you can, you only can, can afford to eat barley." (laughs) Um.

    23. JR

      Right.

  3. 5:53 – 7:54

    From “possible” to “optimal”: the film’s leap from anecdotes to universal claims

    1. CK

      So yeah, it was a bizarre way to start the film, I thought. There could, could've been better ways to do it. And let me also just say, like-If this film... If the purpose of this film was to say, "It's possible to thrive on a plant-based diet. And look, here are some athletes that have done that," I wouldn't have had any qualms with it. Clearly, there are examples of people who thrive on a plant-based diet.

    2. JR

      Yes. If you-

    3. CK

      You know.

    4. JR

      ... follow the diet correctly, it can be done.

    5. CK

      Rich Roll, we talked about last time.

    6. JR

      Mm-hmm. Sure.

    7. CK

      Scott Jurek, who's one of the athletes in the film, seemed to do well. Dottie Bausch, who's one of the athletes in the film. If you really plan it well, and you understand what you're doing, and you're on it, it's totally possible. I... No dispute with that. But where I take issue with it is it went a step further and said, "This is the optimal diet for athletes and everybody else." Which, you know, even though it was a film ostensibly about athletes, it, it definitely crossed the line into, "This is the approach that everybody should do."

    8. JR

      Yeah, I mean, they made these claims like all of a sudden people got stronger and faster and more endurance.

    9. CK

      Right.

    10. JR

      Like, there's no evidence to support that.

    11. CK

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      There's no evidence other than their anecdotal statements of what they did. There's... No one has ever put anyone on a vegan diet and then run them through extreme endurance tests and found a significant increase in VO2 max or-

    13. CK

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      ... muscle strength or any of those things.

    15. CK

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      None of this has ever been done. So if it's, if it's true anecdotally for these people, it would have been really interesting if there was some actual data to go with that where they showed studies.

    17. CK

      Right.

    18. JR

      I mean, we have James talking about his ability to do the battle ropes, that all of a sudden he could do an hour, and before, he could only do 10 minutes. Well, I find that really hard to believe, that you gained 50 minutes of your battle rope time just from ropes? And if that was the only thing in the film that I found hard to believe, I... you know, I'd have to let it go. I mean, the guy's an athlete. He's an amazing athlete.

    19. CK

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      He was a great fighter.

    21. CK

      True.

    22. JR

      He's got fantastic endurance. He has excellent martial arts technique. I would just buy it at, at face level, or at, uh, face value. But there's a lot of those.

  4. 7:54 – 9:38

    The “vegan honeymoon”: short-term improvements vs long-term deficiencies

    1. CK

      There's a lot, and the th- ... I mean, we can go through it and talk about ... I mean, there's that problem, which is there's no peer-reviewed evidence to back that up. But even the anecdotal evidence is a little shaky is, is when we start to talk about some of the athletes in the film, and then also examples of athletes outside of the film who, you know, switched to a vegan diet, and we look and see what happened to them after they did that. The problem here is something that I call the vegan honeymoon, which is, you know, you take someone who's been on a standard American diet, they're eating KFC and McDonald's, et cetera, and they switch from that to a plant-based diet. Well, of course they're gonna feel better. (laughs) They've gone from eating absolute crap to real foods.

    2. JR

      Yes.

    3. CK

      And so for a period of time, they're going to feel better, for sure. But then what happens over a longer period of time? You know, uh, some... Not getting enough protein, just in terms of quantity, and not getting the right quality of protein, that starts to have an impact. Micronutrient deficiencies, you know, vitamin A, zinc, calcium, iron, things like that take a while to develop. So you're not gonna see that decline in performance happen right away. It might take three months, it might take six months, it might take nine months. It depends on all kinds of factors: genetics, health status going into it, the type of exercise and activity that they're doing, the way they're implementing the diet, et cetera. So you have to not just look at what happens a month after someone goes vegan. You have to look at what happens six months, a year after, or two years after. And we can look at specific examples of that.

    4. JR

      So i- in the absence of the correct amount of amino acids, the correct amount of, uh, specific nutrients, you start to see a slow decline?

    5. CK

      Right.

    6. JR

      So... And this is something that they're not taking into account?

    7. CK

      Yeah.

  5. 9:38 – 13:44

    Protein: misleading comparisons and why amino acid quality matters (DIAAS)

    1. JR

      Uh, one of the things they talked about was protein content. And I immediately knew that this was not correct, or that they were being deceptive. They were talking about three ounces of steak versus, uh, what did they compare? A peanut butter sandwich-

    2. CK

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      ... and maybe some lentils? Is that what it was?

    4. CK

      Oh, boy. Yeah. (laughs)

    5. JR

      Well, the problem is, the amino acid profile of that steak is far superior.

    6. CK

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      The amount of protein that your body absorbs is far superior. It's-

    8. CK

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      It's, uh, the... You're talking about a completely different thing. This is known science.

    10. CK

      But-

    11. JR

      That you can get as many amino acids from plant-based proteins, but you e- need to eat a higher quantity.

    12. CK

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      Right? And that's the... That's what's important. It's not the overall grams of protein. It's the quality of the protein. What's the amino acid of the b- profile of the protein, and how does your body absorb it? Again, this does not mean... Like, I'm a giant fan of hemp protein.

    14. CK

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      I eat that stuff all the time.

    16. CK

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      It's great. Y- y- y- It's just you can't say that protein grams are equal to protein grams, 'cause they're n- they're not.

    18. CK

      No, but it's even worse than that. J- Jamie, pull up slide four if you can. There's... I made some graphics here, 'cause, um, it's sometimes easier to understand when you're looking at a picture. So for the pro- the peanut butter sandwich thing, it was like, there's a... There's the same amount of protein in a peanut butter sandwich as there is in three ounces of beef. So I, I looked up the data, of course. (laughs) So three ounces of 90% lean ground beef has 24 grams of protein. You get two slices of wheat bread, we'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it's whole wheat and not white bread. (laughs)

    19. JR

      Okay.

    20. CK

      That's five grams. One tablespoon of peanut butter is four grams. So you'd have to have five tablespoons of peanut butter in that sandwich to equal three ounces of beef. That's a third of a cup of peanut butter.

    21. JR

      That's a lot of fucking peanut butter.

    22. CK

      You ever made a peanut butter sandwich with a third cup of peanut butter? (laughs)

    23. JR

      I probably have, but I'm a glutton.

    24. CK

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      I'm a legit glutton.

    26. CK

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      I've probably done that many times. (laughs)

    28. CK

      So... And that's 600 calories-

    29. JR

      Yes.

    30. CK

      ... versus 200 calories from the ground beef.

  6. 13:44 – 17:25

    RDA myths and real athlete needs: how much protein is actually required?

    1. JR

      And when they're talking about the US RDA, they're talking about, like, how much, you know, the United States recommended daily allowances, that is ... Isn't that just to be healthy, like to be alive?

    2. CK

      Not even healthy, but to be alive, to be more-

    3. JR

      To be alive.

    4. CK

      ... more accurate. It's the, it's the avoid ... It's the amount that's required to avoid malnutrition-

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. CK

      ... technically. So that's-

    7. JR

      I, I know that.

    8. CK

      (laughs) Yeah.

    9. JR

      Right? So I'm, uh, you know, why, why don't they know that? I'm not doing any documentaries on food.

    10. CK

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      Why don't they know? That seems like ... So to use that as a reference point, to use that as like, "Look, you can get this. That's plenty," that's crazy.

    12. CK

      Well, that's a common argument in the vegan community, and they, you know, I don't know whether it's because they, they really don't understand the science behind it or because they do and they're just, you know, it's being kind of exaggerated to suit the- their claim. I can't know that, you know?

    13. JR

      This is what I think it is, honestly. There's a lot of vegan influencers, and there's a lot of people that make YouTube videos and people who produce things like this, and then the other folks just parrot what they say.

    14. CK

      Right.

    15. JR

      So instead of reading the actual studies and talking to objective researchers who have gone over the evidence and disputed the claims that are in these films, like a, a debunking of one of these films will get l- way less views-

    16. CK

      Right.

    17. JR

      ... than the, the actual film itself.

    18. CK

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      That's just how it goes. Nobody's gonna watch. And so especially the people that are already convinced, for them, it's like, "Excellent, I knew Jesus was real."

    20. CK

      (laughs)

    21. JR

      "Now I've got the proof." You know? I mean, it's really like that. It becomes-

    22. CK

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      The, the ideology becomes so strong, it becomes like a religion. And look, I've been accused of it from doing it from a, a meat perspective.

    24. CK

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JR

      And I understand. I understand that you would think that if you had an opposing vegan or vegetarian perspective. I, I totally understand. But, man, you know, when, when we saw it with a, with the Joel Kahn discussion, and you see it al- almost every time someone who's actually informed has a conversation with one of these influencers, like, they're not being 100% accurate, objective, or even honest in a lot of cases.

    26. CK

      Yeah. I mean, there's a great Leon Festinger quote, I don't know if you've heard it. "A man with conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him the facts and figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point."

    27. JR

      The o- the best argument, in my opinion, is this factory farming is disgusting and that the cruelty of treating animals like, uh, like a commodity and serving them up for slaughter in these horrific conditions, these factory farming conditions and these horrible pens that we've all seen, that's the argument for veganism.

    28. CK

      I agree with-

    29. JR

      But when we're talking about performance and health, this is where it just gets very frustrating for me.

    30. CK

      Yeah.

  7. 17:25 – 23:44

    Ethics & environment: animal deaths in plant agriculture and scalability questions

    1. CK

      Um, yeah, so where to start with that? Um, so first of all, you know, the, the idea that plant-based agriculture doesn't kill animals is just false. I mean, there have been studies that show that particularly mono cropping type of plant agriculture kills far more animals than are killed in, you know, from eating cows, for example. The insects, rodents, you know, mice, birds, fish, all, uh, you know, killed in the process of industrial agriculture, and so that presents an-... an ethical dilemma, really. If you are saying I'm a vegan because I don't want my food choices to involve killing animals, is killing, you know, a whole bunch of small non-mammal animals better than killing mammals? Or what about killing more small animals than one cow?

    2. JR

      Right.

    3. CK

      You know? Is, is that-

    4. JR

      Size. The size matter.

    5. CK

      ... ethically ... Does size matter? Does it ... You know, where do you draw the line between an animal that is, like, sentient enough or cute enough maybe to not be killed versus-

    6. JR

      Let me clarify what you're saying too. You're saying more animals per meal. So you, like, if you wanna have a meal out of wheat, you're pro- most likely, more animals are going to die than if you want... It's like if you have 100 meat wheels, uh, me- uh, wheat meals rather, 100 meals with wheat in them, you're probably killing more animals than if you have 100 meals with cows in em, because that's like a cow.

    7. CK

      Yeah, I don't know the answer to that question. I just, I'm comparing kind of the whole process, you know, like eating animals versus eating plants.

    8. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CK

      And, uh, and, and I don't know if that per meal comparison has ever been done, but I'm just saying that that's an interesting ethical question. You know, if-

    10. JR

      Well, let me give you their argument for that. The, they say that most of these mono crops are to feed animals.

    11. CK

      Uh, yeah, that is a problem. I mean, I, I fully ... Where I agree with this film is that conventional, uh, livestock practices are harmful to the planet.

    12. JR

      Right. But what they're saying is that you're saying that eating a vegan diet and all these mono crops, that these mono crops are killing all these small animals. They're saying, no, these mono crops, most of them actually exist to feed livestock.

    13. CK

      That's, that's not true. I mean, if, if you follow this through, I mean, especially when you start talking about, like, fake meat and some ... You know?

    14. JR

      Yes.

    15. CK

      They're, they're all ... What are, what are those based on?

    16. JR

      Soils.

    17. CK

      Soil.

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. CK

      Yeah. They're industrial crops. They're not, you know, grown on the family farm.

    20. JR

      Right.

    21. CK

      These are industrial GMO mono crops.

    22. JR

      Massive, massive fields.

    23. CK

      On a massive scale. Um, there was a great study published in the journal PNAS in 2017, and th- it was specifically addressing this claim of would removing animal products from our diet have, you know, saved the world basically? Would it reduce greenhouse gases? Would it improve our nutrition? Um, basically, they found that it would only reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 2.6%, but our intake of carbohydrates, total calories, um, would go way up, and the incidents of nutrient deficiencies would go way up. And they did the math and found that without animal products, domestic supplies of calcium, EPA, and DHA, which are the long chain omega-3 fats, retinol and B12 were, quote, "insufficient to meet the requirements of the US population." So translation, everybody would have to be supplementing with those nutrients if everyone went on a vegan diet. And they went on to say that, um, basically, the, there's already a surplus of calories in the diet of 145%. If everyone went ... if we removed animal products entirely, that would go up to 230%. So the, because the volume of calories in food that would be required to meet basic nutrient and protein needs would be that much higher. So, you know, there's a lot of downstream consequences that I don't think have been fully thought through. Even if a plant-based diet might work for one person, does it, will it scale? You know, if you, if you take that to the full level of, like, everyone eating a plant-based diet, which is the argument that is being made, does it really work from a nutritional perspective, from an, from an environmental perspective, and even from an ethical perspective?

    24. JR

      The environ- the environmental perspective is legitimate. They both cause environmental damage, both animal agricultural and plant agriculture. There's just no way around it.

    25. CK

      Industrial ag-

    26. JR

      Yes.

    27. CK

      Industrial practices cause environmental damage, yeah.

    28. JR

      And if you wanna feed 320 million people, you're not gonna do it through organic farms. You're gonna, you're gonna have to ... I mean, you can grow food in your neighborhood. I mean, if you live in a small town, you guys can have a co-op. You can have food in your backyard that you can grow. But if you're living in a city like Los Angeles, it's highly likely your food is not coming from that city itself. So that, that means it has to be grown.

    29. CK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    30. JR

      And if you're gonna grow food for 20 million people, you need a giant chunk of land. If you need that giant chunk of land, even if everybody's eating vegan, that means wildlife is gonna be deplased- displaced. The, the area where you're growing crops, it's going to be a mono crop culture. You're not gonna have all these plants living together like they do in the wild. That's n- just not how you grow food for 20 million people in a very specific area.

  8. 23:44 – 31:32

    Greenhouse gases and “apples-to-oranges” accounting in the film

    1. JR

      Th- there's a thing that they keep saying that you brought up slight- you l- you touched on it a little bit earlier. The, the thing is that greenhouse gases.

    2. CK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      And they were talking about the greenhouse gases from meat, and it's just a fake number.I mean, it's over the top-

    4. CK

      It is.

    5. JR

      ... it's over the top not true.

    6. CK

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      The specific number's 9% for all agriculture. All agriculture, including growing crops. The vast majority of all of our greenhouse gas issues are coming from transportation and from industry. This is, this is undisputable.

    8. CK

      So this, this is where I wonder too about-

    9. JR

      So for them to s-

    10. CK

      ... like whether it's, is this disingen- like is this... Are they not aware of the, what's happening here or is it disingenuous? Because... So, so here's the thing, here's what they did, Joe. So the, the number in the... The specific number in the film, they say, uh, greenhouse gas emissions from cattle are 15%. And that... And they compared that to 14% for all of transportation. But the problem with that is that they're using the full life cycle analysis for cal- for livestock. So that means, um, you know, the carbon needed for feed, for transport, for processing all the cattle, not just emissions, not just methane burps-

    11. JR

      Right. Yes.

    12. CK

      ... from the cattle. Whereas for transportation, they're only looking at what are, what are called direct and tailpipe emissions, just the emissions that come out of the tailpipe. They're not looking at the carbon needed to manufacture the vehicle, the cars, the buses, the air- (laughs) airplanes, the inputs for making the fuel, the fuel production and distribution, the final, uh, use of the fuel. That life cycle analysis for transportation hasn't been done just because it's enormously complex and it would be a phenomenally big number. Um, the EPA has estimated that something around 80% of the greenhouse gas emissions comes from industry.

    13. JR

      Yes.

    14. CK

      Basically fossil fuel. So there... It's not an apples to apples comparison. They're-

    15. JR

      Right.

    16. CK

      ... they're doing the full life cycle for livestock versus just the direct emissions for transportation. Well, if we look at just the direct for both, it's 5% for livestock globally and 14% for transportation. But in the US, it's only 3.9% for livestock 'cause we have more efficient practices here versus 14% for transportation. So not even in the same ballpark and it's, it just, it's... Yeah. I mean, they can just say that in a film. Most people will hear that and nod their head because they've heard those numbers before, but the devil is always in the details.

    17. JR

      Well, what's going on is what, what you see in a lot of these videos where only one person gets to talk.

    18. CK

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      Right? One person who has a specific agenda, gets to cherry-pick the data and distort it, and then put it on the film. I mean, and you can accuse us of doing that right now 'cause both of us are clearly on the same page.

    20. CK

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      And, uh, I would be happy to have James come in with you afterwards.

    22. CK

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      We're, uh... Just... But we decided-

    24. CK

      We did it with Joel.

    25. JR

      Yes. And we did... Well, James is way more reasonable than Joel.

    26. CK

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      And, and not slimy. So I'd be happy to do that. And I think that when, when it's all said and done, I, I would just like people to be informed. And, uh, you're, you're... Everyone is going to have their own ideological bias. Everyone's gonna have their own preference. Everyone... But to make poorly informed decisions or... That's being kind. To be more blunt, deceptive information, forming your decisions and, and, uh, and having health consequences because of that, to me, pisses me off and freaks me out.

    28. CK

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      'Cause it's, it's not... The, the, the health aspects are not being represented accurately.

    30. CK

      Yeah. It particularly bothers me when kids are involved. Um-

  9. 31:32 – 37:43

    Regenerative livestock as an alternative: soil, land limits, and feasibility

    1. JR

      Okay. Um, so this animal produ- like the, the, the, the regenerative livestock production, the- doing it in this method, is that sufficient to feed everyone? The production? I mean, how much land do you need to do something like this?

    2. CK

      So I, I knew you were gonna ask that question.

    3. JR

      Okay.

    4. CK

      And I talked to, um, Savory Institute about this and a few other people, and, um, basically, one response is it's the only way we're gonna feed everybody because, as I mentioned, there are only 60 harvests left because of soil degradation. So continually, you know, trying to scale up industrial plant agriculture with soy and corn and, and all of these kinds of crops is gonna further degrade the soil. And at some point, we're not gonna have any (laughs) soil left to grow stuff with.

    5. JR

      That's an important factor, right? And we, we should talk about this, that you need compost and you need fertilizer, and you need something that replenishes the soil. And doing these large-scale monoculture crops, when you have these enormous areas, they're just depleting, right? They're just pulling-

    6. CK

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      ... and then they have to add.

    8. CK

      You can't make something from nothing.

    9. JR

      They have to add bags of minerals, right?

    10. CK

      That's the thing. We're not just, we're not choosing between like, you know, two, one really good alternative and one terrible alternative. That's not a choice, (laughs) like you were saying-

    11. JR

      Right, right.

    12. CK

      ... before the show. Like, eh, that's not even a choice. You just do, you just obviously do the right thing. We're choosing, it's like on the one hand, if we try to scale up plant agriculture in an environment where, according to the F- FAO, our soils are in only, quote, "Fair, poor, or very poor condition," and we only have 60 harvests less, left due to rapidly deteriorating soil due to erosion and nutrient depletion, then we desperately need new methods of restoring healthy soil. And if we can do that with regenerative, holistically managed livestock, which has been shown, you know, in the scientific literature to be possible, then that may be the only way we can feed everybody.

    13. JR

      So we would need to almost have a reversal, if that was the case, and have more animal agriculture than plant agriculture.

    14. CK

      But not the way it's being done now-

    15. JR

      Right, it would have to be-

    16. CK

      ... in the feedlot.

    17. JR

      So they would have to be l- like Joel Salatin set up-

    18. CK

      Yeah, so there, there-

    19. JR

      ... where he's got Polyface Farms.

    20. CK

      ... we would need i- three things to happen. One would be we'd need to return all the crop lands that are being used to feed livestock in feedlots right now to grassland. And number two, we'd need to put all unused land, like the rocky, hilly soil that, or, or land that can't be used for plant agriculture into production f- with animals. And number three, farmer, farmers and ranchers would need to adopt regenerative practices, you know. So I'm not saying... This is an enormous undertaking.

    21. JR

      Yes.

    22. CK

      We're not, we're talking... But so is feeding the world with plant-based agriculture.

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. CK

      Like, whichever direction we go, we're talking about-

    25. JR

      I understand what you're saying.

    26. CK

      ... you know, really, uh, systemic change that needs to happen in a big way.

    27. JR

      What percent... and then this would have, uh, you'd have to have all of the meat be grass-fed meat, 'cause they'd be e- eating what they naturally eat. Now, what is the percentage of grass-fed meat in this country currently?

    28. CK

      Uh, I don't know for sure. I think the number I read was something like 2 or 3%, so very low.

    29. JR

      Very small.

    30. CK

      Yeah.

  10. 37:43 – 1:05:35

    Conflicts of interest, medical CEUs, and the Seventh-day Adventist influence

    1. CK

      The thing is, like, we can go down that road of we can say, okay, so this film was made by James, you know, James Cameron was one of the filmmakers. He also is the owner of Verdient Foods, which is a pea protein company. And he said that he has the goal of it becoming the biggest organic pea protein company in the, in the world. He's invested $140 million into it. His wife, Susie Cameron, is founding a chain of vegan schools. And so, you know, from one perspective, that's conflict of interest. You know, this, it, this is an agenda-driven film. It's not a dispassionate, objective look, you know, scientific look at the, at the vegan diet. But, you know, (laughs) I mean, you can make that argument about just about anyone at this point. Like is it that surprising that a vegan film has a bunch of vegan medical experts in it? Is it surprising that those experts invest in what they believe in and that they write books about it? I don't think so, you know. But, but it's important to know (laughs) that and to not confuse a film like that with a scientific work.

    2. JR

      Yes.

    3. CK

      And that's my problem with this is oc- the, um, what is it? The American College of Lifestyle Medicine. I have to look this up. One of these organizations is offering CEUs to doctors who watch this film and complete a quiz. That's absolutely ridiculous. (laughs) This fi- this has not been peer- this is not peer-reviewed science. This is not something that doctors should be getting CEUs for.

    4. JR

      What is a CEU?

    5. CK

      Continuing education units.

    6. JR

      Mm. Oh, boy.

    7. CK

      So like basically doctors have to do, any medical professional has to do a certain amount of continuing education. You know, y- generally you go to like an accredited (laughs) , um, seminar or class or, or whatever, and l- and that's how you do it. But they're actually offering those for people who, doctors who watch this film and complete a short quiz. And-

    8. JR

      Wow.

    9. CK

      Yeah. That's freaky. So I don't know if we talked about this on the con show or at one of the previous one. Yeah, it was American College of Lifestyle Medicine. Well, they were founded by Seventh-day Adventists at Loma Linda University. The Seventh-day Adventist Church, do you know about this?

    10. JR

      They're vegetarians.

    11. CK

      Yeah. So-

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. CK

      ... it was, uh, one of the founders was Ellen White and she taught that meat was a toxic substance and that flesh should be avoided because it increases our carnal urges.

    14. JR

      Holla.

    15. CK

      (laughs) So-

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. CK

      ... it was, (laughs) it was a moral religious thing at first.

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CK

      And then, uh, one of the other, um, an early Adventist Church member, uh, Lena Cooper, she co-founded the American Dietetic Association, which is still to this day one of our major dietetics, uh, organizations. And she wrote textbooks that were used in dietetic and nursing programs all around the y- the world for, for 30 years. So we have this weird meshing-

    20. JR

      Mm.

    21. CK

      ... that goes back to like the early 20th century between religion and science.

    22. JR

      Do the Seventh-day Adventists have better health overall in general? Do-

    23. CK

      They do.

    24. JR

      ... they like one of those Blue Zone people?

    25. CK

      But, but the argument is often made that that's related to diet. Well, it could be that it's, it's related to, you know, th- part of their creed is to eat healthy whole foods, but they're also, don't smoke, they don't drink. They're a- they're advised to exercise. So it's kind of like the Dean Ornish studies where-

    26. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CK

      ... you know, you put together all these interventions that one of which is low fat diet, and then you say that the benefit was because of the low fat diet.

    28. JR

      What you're, what you're referring to is the study that showed that... And this is what vegans like to say, that vegan diet is the... And Joel u- loves to use this one. A vegan diet is the only diet that's ever been shown in a study to reverse heart disease.

    29. CK

      To clinically reverse heart disease, yeah.

    30. JR

      But what this study actually shows is these people had terrible diets. They smoked and they drank. And then they put them on a vegan diet, no smoking, no drinking, and exercise. And what do you know? Their health improved.

  11. 1:05:35 – 1:24:52

    Athlete case studies: selective windows, Nate Diaz/Conor narrative, and performance declines

    1. JR

      Another problem that I had in the film-

    2. CK

      (clears throat)

    3. JR

      ... especially w- in relations to sport, is the Nate Diaz, Conor McGregor comparison.

    4. CK

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      First of all, Nate Diaz is not a vegan. Nate Diaz eats fish, and he eats eggs.

    6. CK

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      And he, uh, he does try to follow a whole food, vegan diet, I think, during camp.So, uh, I would have to talk to him about that. I know he's done interviews talking about that. But I've definitely seen him eat fish. I watched him on the Anthony Bourdain's, uh, television show and he was eating fish. I know he, he's eaten eggs. He doesn't eat land animals. I think what he does is avoids red meat.

    8. CK

      Well, fish and eggs take care of it-

    9. JR

      Yes.

    10. CK

      ... because, you know, fish is actually higher often than, than meat in terms of protein ounce, ounce for ounce. It's also very high in collagen, which is super important for recovery and repair and explains... Lack of collagen probably explains why a lot of vegan athletes get injured, which we can talk about more later. Um, and then eggs, as you know, are super... You know, they're really high on the Diaz, uh-

    11. JR

      Yes.

    12. CK

      ... score, scale. They're bioavailable, lots of other nutrients, so...

    13. JR

      Here's another problem with that whole comparison. First of all, um, Nate Diaz is a fantastic fighter. He's, he's a longtime mixed martial arts veteran. He's outstanding in all areas. He has a, a fantastic submission game. His brother, Nick Diaz, one of the best in the world. He's also outstanding in all... And his brother, Nick, I, I believe is vegan.

    14. CK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      Um, he's probably a better example because, you know, I mean, even though Nick hasn't beaten, like, some of the top flight fighters in a few years, back when he was in Strikeforce, he was top of the food chain. I mean, he's, he's an elite fighter for sure. I'm not sure if he was vegan back then. I'd have to ask him. But the point being that Nate is a exceptional s- ex- exceptionally skilled athlete. And he was coming into that fight on extremely short notice, so he was most likely following his off-camp diet, which is eggs and eating fish and things along those lines. And I think he said he was partying in Mexico.

    16. CK

      (laughs)

    17. JR

      So who knows what the fuck he was doing.

    18. CK

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      It was, like, 11 days out they call him and they set up this fight. I forget how many days out it was, but it was very sh- very short amount of time. Conor was preparing for a 155-pound fight against Rafael dos Anjos. So he was reducing his caloric intake, uh, dropping his weight down to try to make this 155-pound weight class. It's a big cut for him.

    20. CK

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      So when he... When you do that, you, you are in anticipation that the person you're fighting is also doing that, so you both kind of agree that you're gonna be in a certain weakened state when you actually weigh in at 155 pounds.

    22. CK

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      So, so-

    24. CK

      So was that, like, two weight classes below his normal?

    25. JR

      Well, let me, let me keep going.

    26. CK

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      So he's... This is... That was the first and only time th- well, except the rematch with Nate was the only time that he's fought at 170. So they made a decision to fight at 170 instead of 155 because Nate did not have time to reduce his calories and cut the weight and it takes a long time. It's a slow process of... Nate is a big fella. He walks around probably over 200 pounds, easy.

    28. CK

      Wow.

    29. JR

      And he drops weight to... And he didn't want to drop that much weight. He's a big guy, man.

    30. CK

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:51:02

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