Joe Rogan Experience #1391- Tulsi Gabbard & Jocko Willink

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   All right, here we…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      All right, here we go. How did this get started? How did we decide to do this?

   2. JWJocko Willink0:07

      Uh, I was trying to think about that, because it's something, something you and I started interacting on-

   3. TGTulsi Gabbard0:11

      It was somebody on Twitter.

   4. JWJocko Willink0:12

      ... Twitter.

   5. TGTulsi Gabbard0:13

      Somebody... I don't know exactly how it started, but I saw you reply to a tweet from somebody saying, "Hey, great idea."

   6. JWJocko Willink0:21

      (laughs)

   7. TGTulsi Gabbard0:21

      "Why don't... Why doesn't Jocko and Tulsi go on the Rogan show?"

   8. JWJocko Willink0:25

      Yeah.

   9. TGTulsi Gabbard0:25

      And he's like, "Yeah."

   10. JWJocko Willink0:26

       "Cool, let's do it."

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Yeah, you're like, "I'm in."

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard0:28

       Yep, I said, "I'm in." (laughs)

   13. JWJocko Willink0:29

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       But Jocko, he'll, he'll say that to anything.

   15. JWJocko Willink0:31

       (laughs)

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard0:31

       Yeah?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       "You want to go to the moon? I'm in."

   18. JWJocko Willink0:33

       Let's do it.

   19. TGTulsi Gabbard0:33

       (laughs) "The moon's good."

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       "Roger."

   21. JWJocko Willink0:35

       "Roger." (laughs)

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard0:37

       (laughs)

   23. JWJocko Willink0:37

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       (laughs)

   25. TGTulsi Gabbard0:37

       But it escalated quickly from there, because I didn't know how to get a hold of you.

   26. JWJocko Willink0:40

       Yeah. Yeah.

   27. TGTulsi Gabbard0:40

       And then next thing I know, you're texting me with Jocko, like-

   28. JWJocko Willink0:44

       Yeah.

   29. TGTulsi Gabbard0:44

       ... "So are you serious? Are we doing this or what?" (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Well, it just seemed like such a good idea.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. TGTulsi Gabbard15:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      Yeah.

   3. TGTulsi Gabbard15:00

      "I don't get anything from it, from it anyway."

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      Yeah.

   5. TGTulsi Gabbard15:03

      And, and, you know, rather than-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:05

      (laughs)

   7. TGTulsi Gabbard15:05

      Rather than it being this, this money-driven, ratings-driven venture which, which, you know, the media is, is doing across the board, both these debates and, and kind of what issues they're choosing, um, to cover. Um, and g- go back to like the League of Women Voters, you know, who used to actually host presidential forums, that would have real questions about real issues that people care about, uh, in, in, in a way that's not broken up by commercial breaks and advertisements so that people can make money.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:32

      Yeah, and this is not hard to do.

   9. TGTulsi Gabbard15:34

      No.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:35

       I mean, YouTube is available for virtually anyone who wants to set up an account. This all could be done and it could be done very easily. I mean, i- it's, th- that, I mean, what we're showing is the fragility, the, this, this antiquity, this, this ancient system that doesn't make any sense.

   11. TGTulsi Gabbard15:50

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:50

       And we're seeing it evaporate before our eyes and with a guy like Trump... And then people are using these debates knowing that they're going to get these sound bites and knowing that... And, and you could see some of them work like yours with Kamala Harris and some of them don't, like when she was attacking Elizabeth Warren for not wanting Trump to get kicked off of Twitter.

   13. JWJocko Willink16:09

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:09

       Like, do you read his Twitter? It's fantastic.

   15. TGTulsi Gabbard16:11

       (laughs)

   16. JWJocko Willink16:12

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:12

       Keep him on. That's the best way we understand who he really is.

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard16:16

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       I mean, you could get some of that out of speeches.

   20. JWJocko Willink16:18

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:18

       But when he posts a picture of Greenland with a giant Trump Tower in it-

   22. JWJocko Willink16:22

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       ... and says, "I promise not to do this." Listen-

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard16:24

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:24

       ... if you're on team America, you want that guy to keep tweeting.

   26. JWJocko Willink16:27

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       'Cause that was damn hilarious.

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard16:28

       You know what's going on. (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:30

       It's hilarious too. Like, what-

   30. JWJocko Willink16:31

       Well, y- you called it-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      issue with the left too. The left eats itself way more than any other party.

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard30:03

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      And I don't know what that is about liberals in general that seem to really, truly enjoy calling each other out for not being liberal enough.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard30:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:11

      ... but it's- it's very strange. It's- it's- it's- it's such- so obviously destructive and it shows that there's no good leadership at the top of the heap. Because at the top of the heap, everybody would be like, "Hey, we're all in this together, okay? We can disagree on some stuff-"

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard30:23

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:23

      "... but if we start attacking each other, it makes the other side stronger. So let's- let's cut the shit publicly and let's talk this through." And that's pretty much exactly what the Republicans have done for the most part.

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard30:33

      Yeah. And- and as le- you know, from a leadership perspective, it- it is almost always best to look at things in a balanced way and say, "Oh, I got this- this part of my team over here that wants to do this extreme thing, and the other part of the team wants to do the opposite extreme thing. The answer's gonna be somewhere in the middle. Why don't I just find a good kinda solution that's somewhere in the middle?" And of course, the fringes are gonna be a little bit mad. Okay, I- I get that. They're the fringes. But the bulk of people and what's good for the bulk of people is to make this kind of balanced decision-

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:04

      Yeah.

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard31:04

       ... and move forward with it. But we don't get that kind of logic inside of these leaders, especially when they're running-

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       Yep.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard31:11

       ... for president.

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:12

       Yeah. Which is, you know, they run and then as soon as they get in, they're running for re-election.

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard31:16

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       You know, it's- it's just- i- it's so frustrating as a citizen to sit back and watch this going from the debate format to the- the way, uh, things are handled, it just- I don't understand why there haven't been radical improvements. There's re- improvements in- imagine getting a computer-

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard31:33

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       ... from 1990 and trying to do your work on it. You'd be like, "This hunk of shit." Like-

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard31:38

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:38

       ... "Why doesn't someone do something better?" Well, we have the same exact political system that we had before the internet with the internet. It's- it hasn't been updated at all and it doesn't make any sense.

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard31:50

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:51

       It's just- it's- it's so bonkers, and we sit around and we wait for this magical day in November where we can all fix it, and we all know that it's not gonna get fixed. And w- it's just- it's just a weird place to be in, where everyone's aware that there's an issue and no one's fixing it.

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard32:07

       I- I- when I look at this upcoming election, I have no idea, right?

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:12

       Right.

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard32:12

       And- and, you know, I had a pretty good idea who was gonna win in 2016, just like- Mm-hmm. ... everyone else. I figured, oh, of course, you know, Hillary Clinton's gonna win this thing.

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:19

       I didn't.

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard32:19

       And we're gonna move-

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:20

       I- you- you knew?

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard32:21

       Wow.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       I talked about it in my comedy special.

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard32:23

       Wow.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   I wanna talk about…

   1. TGTulsi Gabbard45:00

      the situation that we too often find ourselves in where you're like, "All right, here's the, here's the mission, guys. Go for it," and then you, whether it's a week or a month or a year later, you're like, "Hey, how the hell did we find ourselves here?" It's like you failed as leaders. The leaders of our country failed to ask those questions about, you know, what happens, what happens next? You know, after we go in and topple Saddam Hussein and we completely obliterate the entire Iraqi military, what actually happens next? What will be the consequences to this? What will be the cost to our troops, our military? What will be the cost to the Iraqi people? What will be the cost to American taxpayers? Is the o- is the object... Do we know what the objective is? Is it achievable? What's our end state and exit strategy? When you look back and, and I've just, I've seen this throughout my seven years in Congress sitting on the Foreign Affairs Committee, uh, sitting on the Armed Services Committee where we're, we're questioning and providing oversight over the Department of Defense and Department of State asking leaders these questions. And when we're not given answers or given ambiguous answers or things like, um... You know, I asked Secretary Mattis once in a hearing about how Al-Qaeda has gotten so strong in Syria to where, I mean, right now they, they control an entire city, the entire city of Idlib is controlled by Al-Qaeda. And I asked him at that time, I said, "Well, why aren't we going after Al-Qaeda in Syria in a very serious and concerted way?" And his answer was, "Well, it's complicated. It's complicated." And, um, it's, it's, it, it's frustrating to say the least, but I think it's been a very, um, trans... It's been, it's been a very clear window into the lack of foresight and good judgment and just the ability to look at these challenges and situations with that, um, that basic understanding in a non-emotional way and understand what are, what's the objective cost and consequences before we launch this action.

   2. JRJoe Rogan47:04

      I wanna talk about something you brought up briefly earlier about the media being sort of cheerleaders-

   3. TGTulsi Gabbard47:09

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan47:09

      ... for a lot of these wars or a lot of these military actions. Why... Do you think that that happens because this ensures that they get access? Do you think it happens because conflict is good for their business? Do you think it happens because if they don't act as cheerleaders that they don't get access to the leaders and to the, the important politicians and military leaders? What do-

   5. TGTulsi Gabbard47:30

      I, I mean, I, I think that the underlying driver is that conflict is good for ratings.

   6. JRJoe Rogan47:36

      That's crazy that that is their decision how to cover things and what's been-

   7. TGTulsi Gabbard47:40

      And it's, it's not... It's, it's the, it's the war machine, um, you know, that, that they're a part of and that they're driving f- uh, that they're a driving force, uh, for. Um, you know, I think that, yeah, there, there, you know, there, there have been, uh, reports, I think over time, I, I think you had Matt Taibbi here recently.

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:59

      Yeah.

   9. TGTulsi Gabbard47:59

      Where you've got, you know, journalists who are more, or, or even, you know, papers who are, who are more interested in, in covering for their, you know, CIA relationships rather than actually bringing forward a story that the America, uh, the truth, you know, that the American people deserve to hear.Um, so, you know, I- I think there are, there are other factors there that drive, um, the media really playing a heavily influential and dangerous force in continuing to push this, this, uh, warmongering narrative that, that is, you know ... I mean, it's, it's costly in an immeasurable, in an immeasurable way.

   10. JRJoe Rogan48:39

       Well, the coverage is so influential and that influence, it- it changes the way people accept or don't accept things that are happening internationally. You know, when there's some- I mean, what was the ... do you remember when there was a time when Obama had talked about, uh, attacking Syria?

   11. TGTulsi Gabbard48:56

       Yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan48:56

       And doing something about it.

   13. TGTulsi Gabbard48:57

       It was in 2013.

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:58

       The entire country was like, "Fuck you."

   15. TGTulsi Gabbard49:00

       (coughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan49:00

       Like, it was, it was huge.

   17. TGTulsi Gabbard49:01

       That was my first year in Congress.

   18. JRJoe Rogan49:03

       I mean, it was one of the, the biggest, like, rejections of an idea global or nationally-

   19. TGTulsi Gabbard49:08

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:08

       ... that I've ever seen. And then he kind of backed off it.

   21. TGTulsi Gabbard49:11

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:11

       You know? It was like, "Oh, okay. Alright."

   23. TGTulsi Gabbard49:13

       I think, I think that was one of the most brave decisions that he made to back off from it, where he actually, you know ... he didn't take that position and that example of just kind of being the obstinate, stubborn, like, "Nope, here's what I said," and he drew this red line, "and I'm not gonna go back on it no matter what." No. He, he did. I- I think he listened to the American people and, ultimately, he chose diplomacy.

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:38

       Well, this is an area where people have been critical of you, is your position on Syria and the fact that you had met with Assad, and this is something that gets brought up. And again, it gets brought up in these little sound bite things that are seeking to define you without any nuance or any, any complexity, that try to l- let ... like, just let this little tiny sentence or two define your position, and they can repeat that to other people without really knowing what they're talking about.

   25. TGTulsi Gabbard50:03

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan50:03

       What is your position on Syria and Assad? And how did all this conflict and all this weirdness with you and, and this subject begin?

   27. TGTulsi Gabbard50:12

       I think, I think it, it, it goes back to, again, um, the, the opposition, uh, that comes towards me from the, the political establishment, um, you know, the, the corporate media and the military industrial complex, because of the, the leadership and, and the voice that I've been bringing, calling for an end to regime change wars, whether, uh, we're talking about the one in Iraq, uh, Libya, and in, in Syria. Um, look, my choice ... my f- my choice will always be towards diplomacy, because if we lack the courage to meet with both adversaries and friends in the pursuit of our own national security and peace, the only alternative is war. Period. That's the way it is. So I will always choose to maximize all diplomatic means and measures and talks and negotiations to, uh, further our interests of peace and national security, recognizing that war should always be, uh, the last resort, if necessary.

   28. JRJoe Rogan51:21

       Now, is this ... it's very difficult for people to understand that these things are insanely messy, and you saying that you would always lean towards diplomacy does not mean you support dictators.

   29. TGTulsi Gabbard51:36

       No.

   30. JRJoe Rogan51:36

       But that's exactly the way they frame it.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:12:43

   Yeah. …

   1. JWJocko Willink1:00:00

      because of politics and whatever, we said, "Okay, you know what? We're- we're not staying there, we're gonna leave." As soon as we left, everybody that had been on the ground in Iraq was like, "Mm, this is probably not a good idea. This is probably not a good idea to bail out right now. We don't need to leave a massive force there but, you know, if we leave a few, uh, you know, we leave a- a couple brigades worth of men, then oh, we'll- we'll probably be able to handle any problems that- that happen."... well, we didn't. We left completely and, and those, those insurgents that were there, they were like little embers and they started to, they started to get fired up again. And then the next thing you know, you had ISIS. And by the way, ISIS marched back into Ramadi and they... Th- the reports we got from people on the ground that we knew was that ISIS came in and anyone that had worked with coalition forces in any level, they would murder the whole family. There's about 500 families that were completely murdered. So when we talk about these things, we have to be very sure about what we're gonna do. We have to recognize that we can't predict everything, 'cause we can't. I don't care how good you are, I don't care how many analysis you put on something, when you start throwing human nature into a leadership vacuum, all these things are gonna break out and it's gonna... It can go very, very bad. It can go well too, but it can go very, very bad. And so, what are we willing to sacrifice? What are we willing to spend? How many of our brothers and sisters in uniform are we willing to sacrifice to make this happen? And how does it help our national security? I believe right now, had we stayed there, I- Iraq would be a pretty strong positive place right now, if we had kind of completed the mission the way that we should have. Again, when we go back and we say, "Okay, well, what, what, what countries is it worth going into?" You know, where are we gonna go? What... How do we draw that line? How do we make that decision? For me, this is, this is what we do as leaders. What we do as leaders, we look at a situation and, and sometimes, you know, you gotta ask yourself, do we have a moral obligation to go somewhere? If there's a genocide happening, if there's another Rwanda happening, where 800,000 Tutsis are killed in 100 days with machetes, if that's going on, do we have a moral obligation to, to, to try and do something to help that? Hey, that's a decision you have to make. That's a hard decision to make as a leader, 'cause guess what? You're gonna lose 30, 40, 100 Americans that are going in there and trying to shut this thing down. But that's the, that's the type of thing we need to think about and that's why, as a leader, you wanna have an open mind, you wanna have your ego completely out of it-

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard1:02:29

      Yeah.

   3. JWJocko Willink1:02:29

      ... because it's real easy to say, "Oh, this is... We're America. This is what we do. This is... We're gonna win." It's like, "No, actually, we made a bad decision and we're actually leaving right now, because we think the expenditure from here on out is gonna be too high." Unfortunately, I think in Iraq, we paid the upfront expenditure. We had invested lives and treasure to, to try and get that place stabilized. We'd done a decent job, we were almost there, uh, and we left early. And all of a sudden we look around and go, "Oof." But that's why these things are important to, to think about thoroughly, as Tulsi said, before you go. We don't know what's going to happen. And, you know, if you're gonna get in a street fight, Joe, like, you, y-... Look, as m- as capable as you are, as capable as I am at street fighting, that's great. There is that 10% chance that that guy pulls out a knife and sticks it in your neck. And are you willing to sacrifice that? Now, if the guy's doing something to an innocent person and you go, "You know what? I gotta take that risk right now. I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this thing handled." Those are hard decisions to make and we have to think through them.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:03:32

      If there was... Very well said. If there was one thing, when I brought you two together, that I thought that you might disagree on, it would be the stance on non-interventionist foreign policy. Uh, and I, I don't know if that's even the right word, disagree, but I think there's nuances to these decisions and these things you two... And I think you would agree with that.

   5. TGTulsi Gabbard1:03:50

      Yeah, there certainly are. Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:03:50

      And Rwanda, what you talked about, is a great example.

   7. TGTulsi Gabbard1:03:53

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:03:53

      Do you have a moral responsibility to go in when you see some atrocities being committed? I mean, that's one thing that people either pro or con on is, uh, w- is the United States... Are we the police force of the world? Are we the moral high ground?

   9. TGTulsi Gabbard1:04:07

      Yeah. I, I, I don't... Uh, just, just listening to you, Jock, I think that, uh, I, I don't think that, that we actually disagree very much. You can tell me if I'm wrong, but, um, I think there, there are important distinctions to be made. Uh, you know, my opposition to regime change wars, um, should not be mistaken for isolationism. Uh, nor should it be mistaken for, um, anything other than what it is. Let's stop fighting, uh, regime change wars that are so often waged in the guise of humanitarianism, but they are pushed forward for other reasons, for their political reasons or corporate reasons or whatever. And they, they try to get the sympathy of the American people and they use the same words, you know, the, "This guy's a monster. This is this, th-..." When you actually peel back the layers, um, there are ulterior motives in place that set the pretext to use our military to go and, and overthrow a regime in another country or topple a dictator, uh, that ultimately ends up more often than not resulting in, in the lives of, uh, the suffering, more suffering for the people in the countries we're supposedly trying to go and help. Um, however, I've, I've been very strong on this, we're talking about Al Qaeda, ISIS, these other jihadist terrorists who, uh, are a threat to our national security. Uh, we need to stay strong in defeating that threat. Uh, that is our function as warriors, as service members in the military, is to go and protect and defend the American people and to take out those who, uh, seek to do us harm. Uh, in the case of a genocide, like Rwanda, um, where there is a killing of people at a massive scale, we look to see, "Hey, is there something that we can do to help end this genocide? Can we work with other countries? Can we bring together a coalition that can effectively stop this genocide?" And if the answer to that is yes, then we should do so. Um, but the, the problem that we've seen a lot more recently is, um, you'll see the word genocide being used very loosely, um, to, uh, as an excuse to go and say, "Hey, well, you know, go, go and topple this dictator who is, uh, inflicting a genocide on their own people without..."... it actually meeting the criteria of a genocide, when really there's a conflict within the- with- within the country, whether it be based on politics or power or whatever. That's a very different thing than this, um, then- then like what we saw i- in Rwanda, for example. So as- as you said s- I- I agree. I think- I think before we go in and make this decision to take military action, uh, we've really got to look very carefully at what is the situation? Where is the information that we're coming from? Is it coming from people who are pushing their own narrative for their own interests, um, where they're not really caring about the interest of the people in these countries or the interests of the American people and our troops? They got their own thing going on. We've got to be able to know that and understand that and, uh, approach this decision, um, not based on a- on a knee-jerk emotional reaction.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:07:20

       And, Jocko, what you were talking about earlier is- is so important here, that when you are on one side and the other side's doing something y- no matter what you can never say, "Well, that makes sense."

   11. JWJocko Willink1:07:30

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:07:30

       You hate that other side. This is a perfect example. When Trump wanted to pull people out of Syria, people on the left were saying, "No."

   13. JWJocko Willink1:07:38

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:07:38

       People on the left were supporting military action in Syria. And I was like, this is- this is bonkers.

   15. TGTulsi Gabbard1:07:44

       It's the upside down.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:07:45

       It's weird.

   17. JWJocko Willink1:07:46

       Yes. And it's because they despise t- they- they completely hate Trump.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:07:51

       Yeah.

   19. TGTulsi Gabbard1:07:52

       Yeah.

   20. JWJocko Willink1:07:52

       And I mean, I know you got friends that hate Trump more than anything in the world. I got friends that hate Trump more than anything in the world and- and it doesn't matter what he does. They have such a- a passionate hatred for him that he could- he could just, you know, cure cancer and- and people would say-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:08:10

       I have-

   22. JWJocko Willink1:08:10

       ... "Well, he did it for his own good."

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:08:12

       I have friends that hate him and I have friends that like him and I have friends that love him. And that's what's hilarious to me when whenever he does something, I love to call the friends who hate him-

   24. JWJocko Willink1:08:20

       (laughs)

   25. TGTulsi Gabbard1:08:20

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:08:20

       ... and just have them scream and yell and rant about it and go, "Why are you so worked up, man?" (laughs)

   27. JWJocko Willink1:08:25

       (laughs)

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard1:08:25

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:08:25

       Like this is- this is like this quid pro quo thing, I've never heard that goddamn expression more in my entire life.

   30. JWJocko Willink1:08:31

       (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:37:09