Joe Rogan Experience #1391- Tulsi Gabbard & Jocko Willink

1. 0:03 – 1:04

   A Twitter suggestion turns into a three-veteran roundtable

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      All right, here we go. How did this get started? How did we decide to do this?

   2. JWJocko Willink0:07

      Uh, I was trying to think about that, because it's something, something you and I started interacting on-

   3. TGTulsi Gabbard0:11

      It was somebody on Twitter.

   4. JWJocko Willink0:12

      ... Twitter.

   5. TGTulsi Gabbard0:13

      Somebody... I don't know exactly how it started, but I saw you reply to a tweet from somebody saying, "Hey, great idea."

   6. JWJocko Willink0:21

      (laughs)

   7. TGTulsi Gabbard0:21

      "Why don't... Why doesn't Jocko and Tulsi go on the Rogan show?"

   8. JWJocko Willink0:25

      Yeah.

   9. TGTulsi Gabbard0:25

      And he's like, "Yeah."

   10. JWJocko Willink0:26

       "Cool, let's do it."

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Yeah, you're like, "I'm in."

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard0:28

       Yep, I said, "I'm in." (laughs)

   13. JWJocko Willink0:29

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       But Jocko, he'll, he'll say that to anything.

   15. JWJocko Willink0:31

       (laughs)

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard0:31

       Yeah?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       "You want to go to the moon? I'm in."

   18. JWJocko Willink0:33

       Let's do it.

   19. TGTulsi Gabbard0:33

       (laughs) "The moon's good."

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       "Roger."

   21. JWJocko Willink0:35

       "Roger." (laughs)

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard0:37

       (laughs)

   23. JWJocko Willink0:37

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       (laughs)

   25. TGTulsi Gabbard0:37

       But it escalated quickly from there, because I didn't know how to get a hold of you.

   26. JWJocko Willink0:40

       Yeah. Yeah.

   27. TGTulsi Gabbard0:40

       And then next thing I know, you're texting me with Jocko, like-

   28. JWJocko Willink0:44

       Yeah.

   29. TGTulsi Gabbard0:44

       ... "So are you serious? Are we doing this or what?" (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Well, it just seemed like such a good idea.
2. 1:04 – 7:53

   Tulsi on post-debate blowback: hit pieces, smears, and the "machine"

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:04

      You know? And, and since you've been on the podcast, a lot of things have happened. Big, the big one is when you rightly called out Kamala Harris on her, her past and-

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard1:15

      Yep.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:15

      ... what she's done. And, and then it seemed like everybody's attacking you. It's like that opened up the floodgates, and then there was all these hit pieces on... An- an- an- as, me as a per- an observer watching from the outside is like, "Wow, look at the machine work."

   4. JWJocko Willink1:28

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:28

      "Look at the attack dogs go." Like, "Look at this." Like, "This-"

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard1:31

      Very transparent.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:32

      Ah. So if you're paying attention-

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard1:34

      If you're paying attention, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:35

      But the thing is, if you're on the outside, and you watch it all happen, then you go, "Oh, I see what's going on." But if you just happen upon one of those articles-

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard1:43

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       ... you go, "Oh, she's an Assad supporter."

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard1:45

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:45

       "Oh, she's a terrible person. Oh, she's a this and a that." And it was amazing. It was amazing to watch. Like I don't... I've never met anybody like, like you that's run for president. Like I knew you when people didn't know you that well-

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard1:58

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:59

       ... and then all of a sudden people know you way more. And now you're a, kind of a household name. So to watch this process and to watch all the machinery sort of move in your direction and pow, pow, pow, it's very interesting.

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard2:10

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       What's it been like for you?

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard2:11

       It's, um... I mean, that, that literally is our challenge here, is, is we are up against the most powerful overall political machine. Um, when you, when you look at this, this, um, uh, machine that's revved up their engines to try to, you know, uh, define me as something that casts suspicion or doubts or whatever in people's minds. Um, you know, pushing information that isn't true, or all of these different things. And I think there's a few reasons for it. Um, our challenge is, um, like yeah, we- we are battling the political establishment in Washington. Um, and it's because I'm telling the truth, it's because I'm challenging, um, the status quo that they represent and, and that they've profited off for, for a very long time. So, you know, my campaign, we don't take any contributions from PACs or lobbyists. Uh, fueled completely by contributions from individual people. And, um, they are outspending us by many, many multiples, uh, where we need help to challenge their narrative with the truth, la- telling me, "Hey, this is who I am. This is why I'm running for president. This is the experience and the background that I bring to this job." We've got to be able to bypass that mainstream corporate media and just go directly, uh, to voters.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:35

       And what does the experience of being attacked feel like?

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard3:40

       Um, God, I feel like I'm, I'm used to it, so it's, I mean, it's just like-

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:44

       (laughs)

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard3:44

       ... it, it's, um, it's, it's nothing that I've, I've ever really taken personally, um, because I, I understand the situation, you know?

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:54

       Right.

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard3:54

       I understand that, you know, whatever the smears are, however radical they are, um, you know, it, it shows me that they feel threatened and, uh, they are concerned about both the unifying message that I'm bringing, because we have Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Independents who are joining this coalition that, that is fueling our campaign. Um, and, and it's a campaign of by and for the people, and, and one that's, that's actually speaking the truth, that's calling for an end to these regime change wars, calling for, you know, a de-escalation of tensions between the United States and other nuclear armed countries, an end to this new Cold War nuclear arms race. Actually, hey, let's focus our limited taxpayer dollars on actually serving the needs of our people. That, that's really the message that we're bringing, and it scares the hell out of them.

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:45

       What's interesting is, for me, again, as an outsider, it's, it's a clear, clear recognition that what they want versus what they say they want are two very different things.

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard4:56

       Exactly.

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:57

       The Democratic Party's, Party's always been like, "We want a woman." Okay, got you a woman. How about a woman who's a veteran? Check. How about a woman that's a congressman? How about that? Congresswoman, veteran-

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard5:07

       Minority.

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:07

       ... minority, from Hawaii, all these positives, this... They're trying to dig up dirt on you, they don't have anything. They should be behind you.

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard5:15

       (laughs)
3. 7:53 – 12:43

   Jocko’s politics: individual freedom, responsibility, and resisting tribal ego

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:53

      Jacque, I don't even know how you stand politically, which is hilarious, because you're one of the few guys that's just not defined politically online. Because people think of you as such a savage, they leave all the politics out of it.

   2. JWJocko Willink8:03

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:03

      They just go, "I don't know what he's..." They just get up, gets up at 4:00 in the morning, leaves a puddle of sweat.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard8:08

      He's- he's America.

   5. JWJocko Willink8:09

      (laughs)

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard8:09

      He's Team America.

   7. JWJocko Willink8:09

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:09

      That's what I'm saying. Like, it seems like you don't have this thing with, like, left or right. You don't have this right or left distinction.

   9. JWJocko Willink8:17

      Yeah, no, it's really interesting if you look at the demographics of like the people I meet when I go and speak, it's- it's everyone. It's everyone from every different spectrum. And I can... I'm just talking... My political beliefs are like, "Hey, I- I believe in individual freedom."

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard8:33

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JWJocko Willink8:34

       Well, that- that seems to me... Uh, it's kind of hard to argue against that, right?

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard8:37

       Yep.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:37

       Yeah.

   14. JWJocko Willink8:37

       I- I believe in in- individual freedom, and with that goes some level of individual responsibility. Mm, yep, okay.

   15. TGTulsi Gabbard8:44

       Yep.

   16. JWJocko Willink8:45

       I don't think the government is a great solution to a lot of our problems, you know? So for me it's like, uh, smaller government, probably a better thing. And I think probably why you get this impression from me is I actually have a balanced... I- I believe that the solutions are somewhere balanced. And in America right now, that- that doesn't really get a lot of traction, because everything is broken down into such little tiny sound bites-

   17. TGTulsi Gabbard9:10

       Yep.

   18. JWJocko Willink9:10

       ... of you're either pro this or you're against it, and there's no gray area. And by the way, if you believe this, you know, if you believe yes and I believe no, I actually hate you.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:20

       That's right.

   20. JWJocko Willink9:21

       And- and I'm going to attack you.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:22

       Yeah.

   22. JWJocko Willink9:22

       And that's why when- when I started going back and forth with Tulsi, like, I- I, you know, I kind of get a gist of what she thinks, and I'm like, "Oh, cool. Guess what I think? She surfs."

   23. TGTulsi Gabbard9:31

       (laughs)

   24. JWJocko Willink9:31

       "She trains martial arts. She plays, uh, she plays ukulele." Oh, I- I can hang out with her. And if, even if our- our political beliefs aren't 100% a- aligned, which my political beliefs aren't 100% aligned with anybody, does that mean that I hate her and I'm never gonna talk to her, I'm gonna call her out? No, actually, it's like, "Oh, cool. Oh, that's an interesting perspective." Because one thing that gets tied into all these things nowadays is our ego, right? Our ego, we- we paint ourselves into a corner where it's like, "I believe this," and now the last thing we can do is- is say, "Oh, actually, you know what? That's a good point, Joe. You- you," you know what I mean?

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:04

       Yeah.

   26. JWJocko Willink10:04

       "I never thought of it from that perspective before." And also just thinking of what other people's perspectives are-

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:09

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JWJocko Willink10:09

       ... because, you know, you just talked about single moms. Well, you got to take that into perspective, because it might be easy for me to say, because I've got kids, but I got a wife and- and we can make things happen, but, oh, single moms over here working two, three jobs. You know, you always talk about me getting up at 4:30 in the morning, and I always say, "Look, there's single moms out there that are getting up at 3:30 in the morning to go work their first shift at the diner so they can get to their second shift at the grade school or wherever they're working so they can do their third shift at some other restaurant at night." Like, okay, that's going on. I got to understand that perspective, and we all have to understand that perspective. And the last thing, when you talk about this 60-second answers-

   29. TGTulsi Gabbard10:43

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JWJocko Willink10:43

       ... which- which is insane, and, you know, I've been interviewed on TV before a bunch as well, and it- it's actually crazy. It's, it... When you compare it to a podcast, it's completely crazy that you have to fit your thoughts into one sentence, maybe two sentences. And the 24-hour news cycle that we're on, every news story that comes out is the end of the world, right?
4. 12:43 – 17:08

   Debates as reality TV: sound bites, commercials, and why podcasts work

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:43

      Tulsi, have you thought at all about doing a podcast of your own?

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard12:46

      I have.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:47

      You could just-

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard12:48

      I just, it's, it's been, uh, it's been, uh, a, just a function of time and capacity.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:52

      Almost like you could just have someone record some of your thoughts while you're on tour and just do it, you know, like, it doesn't have to be overproduced.

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard13:00

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:01

      Just real simple, release it. But that ability to get those thoughts out there in a way where you, you can form full sentences-

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard13:09

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:10

      ... explore ideas-

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard13:11

       Sure.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:11

       ... express your concerns, talk about it without the pressure of this buzzer when, when, when you're in the middle of something, "Congresswoman, Congresswoman, Congresswoman."

   12. JWJocko Willink13:19

       (laughs)

   13. TGTulsi Gabbard13:19

       "We gotta cut to commercials, right?"

   14. JRJoe Rogan13:21

       "Co- Co- Congresswoman."

   15. TGTulsi Gabbard13:21

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan13:21

       The Tide is waiting.

   17. TGTulsi Gabbard13:22

       Yeah. (laughs)

   18. JWJocko Willink13:22

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:22

       Congresswoman, we have to sell a Toyota truck.

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard13:24

       Exactly. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:25

       It's so goddamn crazy-

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard13:26

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:26

       ... that this is how we decide our leaders.

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard13:28

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:28

       And the idea that, is- isn't it possible, can't someone step up? Can't, uh, Apple or fucking Samsung or something step up and say, "All right, we're gonna, we are going to advertise at the beginning of this show, and then we're gonna promote the whole show. So the whole show, we're gonna just let it run with no commercial interruptions, no..." No, and let it, let's, let's do a few hours. Why, w-

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard13:48

       That's what should happen.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:49

       Why are we doing an hour?

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard13:50

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:50

       Like, why is it two hours? Why ... It should be as long as it takes to get... I mean, didn't Lincoln do speeches that were hours long, you know, w- yelling, right?

   30. JWJocko Willink13:58

       (laughs)
5. 17:08 – 28:28

   Tulsi vs. party leadership: Harris, backstage dynamics, and Clinton’s "Russian asset" claim

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:08

      It's just... It's, it's a, it's a nutty place to, to watch. What was... Do you get to hang out with Kamala Harris backstage?

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard17:15

      (smacks lips) No. No. I mean, there's, there's-

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:17

      Oh, is everyone separated?

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard17:18

      No, I mean, there's, there, there's like a, a, just like a little holding area kind of space, like, a lot smaller than this room, so.

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:25

      And you're all, you're all hanging out in there together?

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard17:26

      Um, during the commercial breaks, yeah. But she's-

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:29

      Does she say anything to you?

   8. JWJocko Willink17:30

      Did you have eye contact with her?

   9. TGTulsi Gabbard17:31

      No.

   10. JWJocko Willink17:31

       No?

   11. TGTulsi Gabbard17:32

       Uh, maybe every now and then, but I, um, I, I honestly like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       (laughs)

   13. TGTulsi Gabbard17:38

       Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm probably not on the top of her friend list.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:43

       Yeah, you sank her battleship.

   15. JWJocko Willink17:44

       And then d- I mean, Hillary Clinton.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:47

       Yeah, that was another one.

   17. JWJocko Willink17:48

       How... Well, what's up with that war?

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard17:51

       (laughs)

   19. JWJocko Willink17:51

       Because again, you know, she's the matriarch of the, of the Clinton family.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:55

       Yeah.

   21. JWJocko Willink17:55

       And there she is the hero to many people of the Democratic Party, and you two are scrapping.

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard18:03

       (laughs) It's, it's-

   23. JWJocko Willink18:04

       How... Did that start when you... Did that start... You... Did you s- You supported Bernie in 2016?

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard18:09

       Yeah.

   25. JWJocko Willink18:09

       Is that where it started?

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard18:09

       Yeah.

   27. JWJocko Willink18:10

       Okay.

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard18:10

       That, and that was something, um-Yeah. Back in, in 2016, I was the vice chair of the Democratic National Committee. Um, therefore, as an officer of the DNC, had to remain neutral in the presidential election, which was my plan to do so. Um, I really made the decision to resign from that seat so that I could endorse Bernie Sanders, largely beca- or act- largely because of his, um, difference with Hillary Clinton in foreign policy. You know? Hillary Clinton had, uh, you know, very much of an interventionist, i- in my opinion, um, kind of the, the war hawk regime change war policy that she had shown throughout her time both in the administration as well as as a US Senator. And Bernie Sanders, you know, leaned the other way. He's, he's more of a non-interventionist. And I saw that in the, those debates at that time, the conversations that were had, the media was not bringing up this difference between the two of them so the voters could make an informed choice of who they want their Commander-in-chief to be, which to me, just as, you know, as a soldier, as a veteran, as an American, I'm like, "How can you not be putting this issue at the forefront?" So, I resigned from that position, endorsed Bernie Sanders, started going out and just talking about and raising these issues, uh, on the campaign trail. But I remember one of the first interviews that I did on MSNBC, the, the host of the show saying, uh, "A- aren't you afraid of what the Clintons will do to you?"

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:32

       (laughs)

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard19:32

       Said this on live television.
6. 28:28 – 29:59

   Smear-by-association: The View, Richard Spencer, and how clips become "truth"

   1. JWJocko Willink28:28

      Th- they did, they did that interview with you on The View.

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard28:32

      Oh, you saw that?

   3. JWJocko Willink28:32

      And, yeah. And they, they said, they said something about Richard Spence- Spencer the white supremist.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard28:38

      Yeah.

   5. JWJocko Willink28:38

      And, 'cause he said, so this is of all the things they bring up-

   6. JRJoe Rogan28:40

      Yeah.

   7. JWJocko Willink28:41

      ... they say, "Richard Spencer, a white supremist Nazi, said he could vote for you." That's what they decided to bring up.

   8. JRJoe Rogan28:48

      (laughs)

   9. JWJocko Willink28:49

      (laughs)

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard28:49

       And-

   11. JRJoe Rogan28:49

       Well, The View is, I mean, we have to really be thankful that it exists, because without that level of discourse on television, without being able to watch those geniuses banter around some of the most important ideas of today, I don't know where we would be. I think it elevates us as a society, as, as a civilization, and it also shows the rest of the world how it's done.

   12. JWJocko Willink29:10

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:10

       If you really wanna see how the, the baddest country on Earth deals with political discourse and, uh, social issues, watch those gals.

   14. JWJocko Willink29:18

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan29:19

       'Cause they got it down. Bunch of damn geniuses.

   16. JWJocko Willink29:21

       (laughs)

   17. TGTulsi Gabbard29:21

       You're good, Joe.

   18. JRJoe Rogan29:22

       (laughs)

   19. TGTulsi Gabbard29:24

       Oh, you're good.

   20. JRJoe Rogan29:25

       Doesn't get any better.

   21. TGTulsi Gabbard29:26

       I think-

   22. JWJocko Willink29:26

       But they throw that out there. They throw that out there.

   23. TGTulsi Gabbard29:28

       I think the other thing-

   24. JRJoe Rogan29:28

       Yeah. Yeah.

   25. TGTulsi Gabbard29:28

       It, it-

   26. JWJocko Willink29:28

       They throw that out there. And you, you know, once it's out there, hey, it's out there. And all of a sudden-

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:33

       It's all they have to do.

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard29:33

       Yeah.

   29. JWJocko Willink29:33

       ... there's someone else somewhere-

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard29:34

       Yeah.
7. 29:59 – 32:54

   Polarization, broken incentives, and why politics hasn’t updated for the internet

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:59

      That's, that's a giant issue with the left too. The left eats itself way more than any other party.

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard30:03

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      And I don't know what that is about liberals in general that seem to really, truly enjoy calling each other out for not being liberal enough.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard30:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:11

      ... but it's- it's very strange. It's- it's- it's- it's such- so obviously destructive and it shows that there's no good leadership at the top of the heap. Because at the top of the heap, everybody would be like, "Hey, we're all in this together, okay? We can disagree on some stuff-"

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard30:23

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:23

      "... but if we start attacking each other, it makes the other side stronger. So let's- let's cut the shit publicly and let's talk this through." And that's pretty much exactly what the Republicans have done for the most part.

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard30:33

      Yeah. And- and as le- you know, from a leadership perspective, it- it is almost always best to look at things in a balanced way and say, "Oh, I got this- this part of my team over here that wants to do this extreme thing, and the other part of the team wants to do the opposite extreme thing. The answer's gonna be somewhere in the middle. Why don't I just find a good kinda solution that's somewhere in the middle?" And of course, the fringes are gonna be a little bit mad. Okay, I- I get that. They're the fringes. But the bulk of people and what's good for the bulk of people is to make this kind of balanced decision-

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:04

      Yeah.

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard31:04

       ... and move forward with it. But we don't get that kind of logic inside of these leaders, especially when they're running-

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       Yep.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard31:11

       ... for president.

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:12

       Yeah. Which is, you know, they run and then as soon as they get in, they're running for re-election.

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard31:16

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       You know, it's- it's just- i- it's so frustrating as a citizen to sit back and watch this going from the debate format to the- the way, uh, things are handled, it just- I don't understand why there haven't been radical improvements. There's re- improvements in- imagine getting a computer-

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard31:33

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       ... from 1990 and trying to do your work on it. You'd be like, "This hunk of shit." Like-

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard31:38

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:38

       ... "Why doesn't someone do something better?" Well, we have the same exact political system that we had before the internet with the internet. It's- it hasn't been updated at all and it doesn't make any sense.

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard31:50

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:51

       It's just- it's- it's so bonkers, and we sit around and we wait for this magical day in November where we can all fix it, and we all know that it's not gonna get fixed. And w- it's just- it's just a weird place to be in, where everyone's aware that there's an issue and no one's fixing it.

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard32:07

       I- I- when I look at this upcoming election, I have no idea, right?

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:12

       Right.

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard32:12

       And- and, you know, I had a pretty good idea who was gonna win in 2016, just like- Mm-hmm. ... everyone else. I figured, oh, of course, you know, Hillary Clinton's gonna win this thing.

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:19

       I didn't.

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard32:19

       And we're gonna move-

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:20

       I- you- you knew?

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard32:21

       Wow.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       I talked about it in my comedy special.

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard32:23

       Wow.
8. 32:54 – 39:37

   Immigration realism: secure borders, humane reform, and the Mexico corruption problem

   1. TGTulsi Gabbard32:54

      Every time someone said, "Oh, if you believe in- if you believe in border security, you're a racist."

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:01

      Yeah.

   3. TGTulsi Gabbard33:01

      Right? That, "Hey, if you believe in border security, y- you're a racist."

   4. JRJoe Rogan33:04

      Well, that makes Obama a racist.

   5. TGTulsi Gabbard33:06

      (laughs) Yeah. So- and- but- but all those people that heard that, like, going, "I- I'm not a racist. What are you talking about? I'm voting for Trump."

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:12

      Right, exactly.

   7. TGTulsi Gabbard33:12

      And- and that is what happened.

   8. JRJoe Rogan33:14

      100%.

   9. TGTulsi Gabbard33:14

      Yeah. It's still what's happening, though.

   10. JRJoe Rogan33:15

       100%.

   11. TGTulsi Gabbard33:16

       Yeah. It's still playing out, uh, right now.

   12. JRJoe Rogan33:18

       Yes.

   13. TGTulsi Gabbard33:18

       You know, where people are saying exactly that, that if you believe in secure borders, then you must be anti-immigrant and you must be, uh- you must be, uh, a racist, uh, and vice versa, you know? They look at the opposite side and make the opposing argument, rather than taking that sensible approach and saying, "Hey, how about we secure our borders-" (laughs) "... using the most effective and cost-efficient means possible, and update our immigration laws so that they are humane and that they actually serve the interests of our country, our economy, our families, education," and so on and so forth. I mean, this is something that, yeah, Republicans and Democrats, if you just sit down and have the conversation, say, "Oh, yeah, well, I- I actually agree with that, like you're saying, like, okay, that's a really good point. We- ah, maybe we should do it this way, maybe we should do it that way." But if we can agree on the objective, then we can have the meaningful conversation about how to get there, rather than continuing what we are doing and where we've seen- we have not seen an update to our immigration laws for decades. I think since Reagan, actually, we have not seen a- a comprehensive immigration reform, which we so desperately need and it's because honestly both sides are so busy throwing crap at each other and arrows at each other because it's about partisanship and getting the political win, rather than actually solving the problem.

   14. JRJoe Rogan34:35

       Yeah.

   15. TGTulsi Gabbard34:35

       That's the difference.

   16. JRJoe Rogan34:36

       It's easy to cry racism when you look at the difference between the border of Mexico and the border of Canada-

   17. TGTulsi Gabbard34:40

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan34:40

       ... because the border of Canada is like a giant landing strip, like, "Come on through."

   19. TGTulsi Gabbard34:44

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan34:44

       It's just woods and then there's a huge gap in the woods.

   21. TGTulsi Gabbard34:48

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan34:48

       That's the- it's the opposite of a fence.

   23. TGTulsi Gabbard34:50

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan34:50

       It's like, "We're gonna make it easier for you to cross. We're gonna show you where the line is." Have you seen the border?

   25. TGTulsi Gabbard34:55

       Yeah, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan34:55

       You've seen the border of Canada?

   27. TGTulsi Gabbard34:56

       But, you know, you- you put-

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:58

       It's hilarious.

   29. TGTulsi Gabbard34:58

       ... the economy in Canada is not gonna force people to try and get to America.

   30. JRJoe Rogan35:01

       It's pretty nice out there.
9. 39:37 – 47:04

   Snap judgments and military-style planning: Syria/Kurds and second-order effects

   1. JWJocko Willink39:37

      (laughs)

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard39:37

      ... for the political candidates running for president, it's who can get their tweet out the fastest on the issue. We saw this recently with, uh, the situation in Syria with the Kurds, and who can get the tweet out the fastest. People are asking me, like, "Hey, what do you have to say? What do you have to say?" I'm like, "I'm trying to understand the situation first. I'm actually trying to understand what happened and why we are in the situation that we're in. Once I do that, I'll let you know what I think."

   3. JWJocko Willink40:03

      Yeah. And that was another one of those end-of-the-world scenarios that unfolded-

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard40:06

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JWJocko Willink40:06

      ... you know. We ... Trump pulled the, the troops out of s- out of that area and it was like, "Oh, the world's gonna end." And, and look, there was some bad stuff that happened. I, I get it. Some ISIS folks is, is ... Folks. Some ISIS-

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard40:20

      (laughs)

   7. JWJocko Willink40:20

      ... terrorists, murderers escaped.

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard40:23

      Yeah.

   9. JWJocko Willink40:23

      I, I got that. Some, some Kurds were killed. Like, some bad stuff happened. But it wasn't the end of the world. And, and one thing ... You know, I was, uh ... My, my second deployment to Iraq, we were ... We started doing counterinsurgency operations instead of counterterrorist operations, so we, we, we changed our strategy. And as we did this, we were, we were starting to kill, uh, a decent amount of bad guys, a ba- of, of these insurgents. So, a few weeks go by and I got a message from up in my chain of command and they're like, "Hey, Jocko, we get that you're doing these missions, but right now, we're not seeing any changes in the metrics as far as enemy attacks that are happening, happening." Right? And luckily, I had read the, the counterinsurgency manual that was written by General Petraeus. And, and I ... And part of that explains that a ... The average counterinsurgency takes seven years to work itself out, right? And so I said, "Hey, you know, boss, the average counterinsurgency takes seven years to, to flush itself out. It's only been three weeks. Can I get some more, some more time here to work through this?"

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard41:29

       (laughs)

   11. JWJocko Willink41:29

       And he's like, "Okay, yeah. You know, makes sense." But my point is it's the same thing here. We think that some news event ... That we can fully understand a news event within one hour of it happening.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard41:40

       Right.

   13. JWJocko Willink41:40

       We don't have any understanding. We ... You need to let these things develop and, and see where the actual long-term effects are. We can't be snapping judgments and making radical decisions or, or split decisions when we have to actually assess what is really going on. And so the, the press for sure is like snap decision, snap decision, snap decision, and you can see ... It's comical the flip back and forth between the two, th- two, the left-wing media and the right-wing media, and one of them's the greatest decision ever and the other one's the most horrible thing that's ever happened.... and, and there you go. And you know no one can even make an assessment of what just happened because it only happened 14 minutes ago.

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard42:15

       Right.

   15. JWJocko Willink42:16

       How about we see where it plays out?

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard42:17

       It's, it's about being first rather than actually being accurate in presenting the American people with, "Here's what has gone on. You can form your own opinion, you can form your own conclusion, but here's the course of events that took place, A, B, C, D, and E." And that's, that's exactly what we're missing in, in, uh, most of the time.

   17. JRJoe Rogan42:35

       Well, I think it's what we were talking about earlier. I think we're poisoned by this desire to have our information fed to us very quickly and the, the fact that there's so much information coming at us. We don't have enough time to sit back and read a manual on how long it takes-

   18. JWJocko Willink42:49

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan42:49

       ... counterinsurgency efforts to be fru- fruition, to reach fruition. The, the fact that that's hitting you in the military, that you would think that the most pragmatic, the most disciplined people that understand the long game that are playing 3D chess, those are the people that you would want telling people like you what you can and can't do. The fact that that kind of thinking is even filtering down to special ops groups-

   20. JWJocko Willink43:11

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan43:11

       ... is crazy.

   22. JWJocko Willink43:13

       Well, what's nice is we do have decentralized command inside the military. So, when I'm telling my boss, "This is what's going on," my boss isn't like, "Shut up and do what I told you to do." My boss is like, "Okay. Makes sense. Explain it to me. Okay, got it. Yeah, that makes sense. Cool. Move forward." That's, that's a very positive thing in the military. Everyone thinks that the military is this rigid, structured way-

   23. JRJoe Rogan43:28

       (laughs)

   24. JWJocko Willink43:29

       ... where you just obey the chain of command and you don't, you don't veer from that at all. But if my boss tells me to do something that doesn't make any sense, I'm gonna say, "Hey, boss, this actually is a bad plan. We should do it a different way." And if I have a good boss, my boss says, "Oh, okay. I didn't see that angle." And that's another thing that, you know, when Tulsi's talking about how politicians, we come up with a plan and then we start executing the plan. Guess what? Y- once you start executing a plan, some other things are gonna come to, come to light, right?

   25. TGTulsi Gabbard43:54

       That's right.

   26. JWJocko Willink43:54

       And you as a leader have to say, "Hey, you know what? We started executing this. It's going pretty good, but I didn't foresee this happening. I'm making an adjustment. Here it is. Here's what we're gonna do, and I'm gonna wait for that feedback to come to me." The problem is people are so insecure or/their ego is so big that they won't, they'll just, "I'm just gonna stick with the same plan no matter... Everyone else is dumb. No, we just need to see it through." It's like, "No, actually we need to make some changes."

   27. TGTulsi Gabbard44:18

       Because they, you know, they- they're afraid of saying, "Hey, my initial assessment might have been inaccurate or wrong."

   28. JWJocko Willink44:24

       Yep.

   29. TGTulsi Gabbard44:24

       And, and I think that that also just points to the bigger point, um, for the political leadership, the civilian leadership that sets the policy that the military executes is so often lacks that foresight and that, that planning of actually looking, okay, if we pursue course of action A, you know, we call it... Here, here will be the second, third, fourth order of effects, right? Here's how, you know, the enemy or the opponent is likely to react, or here's how other actors, uh, are likely to react to our action. So we can try to anticipate that and then we can, okay, this is how we would respond, this is how they're likely to respond, and actually go through this so that we don't end up in the situation that we too often find ourselves in where you're like, "All right, here's the, here's the mission, guys. Go for it," and then you, whether it's a week or a month or a year later, you're like, "Hey, how the hell did we find ourselves here?" It's like you failed as leaders. The leaders of our country failed to ask those questions about, you know, what happens, what happens next? You know, after we go in and topple Saddam Hussein and we completely obliterate the entire Iraqi military, what actually happens next? What will be the consequences to this? What will be the cost to our troops, our military? What will be the cost to the Iraqi people? What will be the cost to American taxpayers? Is the o- is the object... Do we know what the objective is? Is it achievable? What's our end state and exit strategy? When you look back and, and I've just, I've seen this throughout my seven years in Congress sitting on the Foreign Affairs Committee, uh, sitting on the Armed Services Committee where we're, we're questioning and providing oversight over the Department of Defense and Department of State asking leaders these questions. And when we're not given answers or given ambiguous answers or things like, um... You know, I asked Secretary Mattis once in a hearing about how Al-Qaeda has gotten so strong in Syria to where, I mean, right now they, they control an entire city, the entire city of Idlib is controlled by Al-Qaeda. And I asked him at that time, I said, "Well, why aren't we going after Al-Qaeda in Syria in a very serious and concerted way?" And his answer was, "Well, it's complicated. It's complicated." And, um, it's, it's, it, it's frustrating to say the least, but I think it's been a very, um, trans... It's been, it's been a very clear window into the lack of foresight and good judgment and just the ability to look at these challenges and situations with that, um, that basic understanding in a non-emotional way and understand what are, what's the objective cost and consequences before we launch this action.

10. 47:04 – 55:46

    Regime change vs. diplomacy: Assad meeting, Libya collapse, and nuclear negotiations

    1. JRJoe Rogan47:04

       I wanna talk about something you brought up briefly earlier about the media being sort of cheerleaders-

    2. TGTulsi Gabbard47:09

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan47:09

       ... for a lot of these wars or a lot of these military actions. Why... Do you think that that happens because this ensures that they get access? Do you think it happens because conflict is good for their business? Do you think it happens because if they don't act as cheerleaders that they don't get access to the leaders and to the, the important politicians and military leaders? What do-

    4. TGTulsi Gabbard47:30

       I, I mean, I, I think that the underlying driver is that conflict is good for ratings.

    5. JRJoe Rogan47:36

       That's crazy that that is their decision how to cover things and what's been-

    6. TGTulsi Gabbard47:40

       And it's, it's not... It's, it's the, it's the war machine, um, you know, that, that they're a part of and that they're driving f- uh, that they're a driving force, uh, for. Um, you know, I think that, yeah, there, there, you know, there, there have been, uh, reports, I think over time, I, I think you had Matt Taibbi here recently.

    7. JRJoe Rogan47:59

       Yeah.

    8. TGTulsi Gabbard47:59

       Where you've got, you know, journalists who are more, or, or even, you know, papers who are, who are more interested in, in covering for their, you know, CIA relationships rather than actually bringing forward a story that the America, uh, the truth, you know, that the American people deserve to hear.Um, so, you know, I- I think there are, there are other factors there that drive, um, the media really playing a heavily influential and dangerous force in continuing to push this, this, uh, warmongering narrative that, that is, you know ... I mean, it's, it's costly in an immeasurable, in an immeasurable way.

    9. JRJoe Rogan48:39

       Well, the coverage is so influential and that influence, it- it changes the way people accept or don't accept things that are happening internationally. You know, when there's some- I mean, what was the ... do you remember when there was a time when Obama had talked about, uh, attacking Syria?

    10. TGTulsi Gabbard48:56

        Yes.

    11. JRJoe Rogan48:56

        And doing something about it.

    12. TGTulsi Gabbard48:57

        It was in 2013.

    13. JRJoe Rogan48:58

        The entire country was like, "Fuck you."

    14. TGTulsi Gabbard49:00

        (coughs)

    15. JRJoe Rogan49:00

        Like, it was, it was huge.

    16. TGTulsi Gabbard49:01

        That was my first year in Congress.

    17. JRJoe Rogan49:03

        I mean, it was one of the, the biggest, like, rejections of an idea global or nationally-

    18. TGTulsi Gabbard49:08

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan49:08

        ... that I've ever seen. And then he kind of backed off it.

    20. TGTulsi Gabbard49:11

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan49:11

        You know? It was like, "Oh, okay. Alright."

    22. TGTulsi Gabbard49:13

        I think, I think that was one of the most brave decisions that he made to back off from it, where he actually, you know ... he didn't take that position and that example of just kind of being the obstinate, stubborn, like, "Nope, here's what I said," and he drew this red line, "and I'm not gonna go back on it no matter what." No. He, he did. I- I think he listened to the American people and, ultimately, he chose diplomacy.

    23. JRJoe Rogan49:38

        Well, this is an area where people have been critical of you, is your position on Syria and the fact that you had met with Assad, and this is something that gets brought up. And again, it gets brought up in these little sound bite things that are seeking to define you without any nuance or any, any complexity, that try to l- let ... like, just let this little tiny sentence or two define your position, and they can repeat that to other people without really knowing what they're talking about.

    24. TGTulsi Gabbard50:03

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan50:03

        What is your position on Syria and Assad? And how did all this conflict and all this weirdness with you and, and this subject begin?

    26. TGTulsi Gabbard50:12

        I think, I think it, it, it goes back to, again, um, the, the opposition, uh, that comes towards me from the, the political establishment, um, you know, the, the corporate media and the military industrial complex, because of the, the leadership and, and the voice that I've been bringing, calling for an end to regime change wars, whether, uh, we're talking about the one in Iraq, uh, Libya, and in, in Syria. Um, look, my choice ... my f- my choice will always be towards diplomacy, because if we lack the courage to meet with both adversaries and friends in the pursuit of our own national security and peace, the only alternative is war. Period. That's the way it is. So I will always choose to maximize all diplomatic means and measures and talks and negotiations to, uh, further our interests of peace and national security, recognizing that war should always be, uh, the last resort, if necessary.

    27. JRJoe Rogan51:21

        Now, is this ... it's very difficult for people to understand that these things are insanely messy, and you saying that you would always lean towards diplomacy does not mean you support dictators.

    28. TGTulsi Gabbard51:36

        No.

    29. JRJoe Rogan51:36

        But that's exactly the way they frame it.

    30. TGTulsi Gabbard51:38

        Yeah.
11. 55:46 – 1:14:16

    Jocko’s war framework: moral obligation, unpredictability, and the real cost of intervention

    1. JWJocko Willink55:46

       I'll tell you, I- I think a- a couple things come up from just kind of on what you're- what you're saying, and this is kind of my perspective on it. When, you know, when we talk about, hey, when you go in somewhere you've gotta know what the end state is, you've gotta know what you're ... you know, you've gotta know where you're going and when you're gonna leave, you've gotta have an exit strategy. What's really hard about that is we don't necessarily know and war is so unpredict- unpredictable that you may, you know, there's- there's a chance that you went in and killed Gaddafi, and then all of a sudden some benevolent person steps up and all of a sudden you've got this flourishing democracy. Okay, what are the chances of that? No, very small, but you don't know that it's gonna go into this- this completely failed state. You- you have high hopes, maybe your intel people are saying you this. It's like when we, you know, when we did the Bay of Pigs. All the Cubans in America were like, "Yep, as soon as you guys hit the beaches, all the Cubans are gonna be on our side, it's gonna be good to go." All the Cubans that supported America were in America.

    2. TGTulsi Gabbard56:40

       Yeah.

    3. JWJocko Willink56:40

       We showed up there and they were like, "What are you doing? No, this is our country." So we don't necessarily know where we're gonna go, which means you've gotta have, once again, like the open mind to say, "Oh, this isn't going the way we thought it was gonna go. How are we gonna adjust right now to prevent this from getting worse?" Which means what you really have to do is prior to intervening in other countries, you have to assess what sacrifices you are willing to make to- to get the result that is positive. And y- and it's, and those- those could be massive. You know, I always talk about if you're gonna go to war, you've gotta have the will. And that will comes in two forms. Number one is the will to kill. Because when you go to war, you are going to be killing people. You're gonna be killing the enemy and you're gonna be killing civilians. And that- that's- that's not what we're trying to do. And believe me, the US military goes through great lengths to prevent that from happening, but it is gonna happen. It's war.

    4. TGTulsi Gabbard57:35

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JWJocko Willink57:35

       So you have to be willing to kill. You have to be willing to have that happen. And you have to be willing to die, because when you go to war, there's gonna be American kids that are not gonna come home. And so you have to have those two wills. That's before you go in. So you can't look at it and say, "Well, you know, we can go into Libya, we can move this guy and probably it'll turn out okay, so we don't have to worry about what the sacrifices are gonna be." Another thing to think about, when we went to war, when we went to World War II, World War I, those kids, 18 years old, 17 years old, those kids went to war until the war was over.

    6. TGTulsi Gabbard58:13

       Yeah.

    7. JWJocko Willink58:13

       They- they were, they went on deploym- Like now, you know, in the- in the- in the Navy, in the Marine Corps, it's a six, seven month deployment, in the Army sometimes it's a 14-month deployment, and then they're gonna rotate back to the States. In World War II, it was like, "Oh, cool. Yeah, we're at war, you'll be home when it's over." So five years, four years. If that was our attitude going into the war, this is so important to us that Johnny is gonna get on a ship and he's gonna sail to the Pacific, and if he comes home, it's gonna be in three years, four years, five years. That's what we're talking about. That's the level of commitment we have. So when we start looking at going into other countries, we need to start thinking, "Okay, what level of commitment do we really have to make this successful?" And- and like even when I look at Iraq, you know, I was in Iraq, I fought in Iraq, from a granular perspective, being on the ground, Battle of Ramadi 2006, the citizens of Ramadi, the normal citizens of Ramadi were overjoyed that we were there. And it was like we were- we were angels to go there and help them get rid of these heinous Al-Qaeda insurgents, which eventually came, became ISIS. Unfortunately, you know, we kind of, we- we did a great job. Ramadi was, uh, uh, the model of counter-insurgency for about seven years, and it was less violent than many cities in America. And I had great pride, and at least understood the sacrifices my friends that were killed, my friends that never came home, my friends that won't get to have kids, right? They did all that, they gave all that, and I was able to look around and say, "You know what? These folks in this foreign country, they're gonna, they have an opportunity for freedom." And unfortunately, because of politics and whatever, we said, "Okay, you know what? We're- we're not staying there, we're gonna leave." As soon as we left, everybody that had been on the ground in Iraq was like, "Mm, this is probably not a good idea. This is probably not a good idea to bail out right now. We don't need to leave a massive force there but, you know, if we leave a few, uh, you know, we leave a- a couple brigades worth of men, then oh, we'll- we'll probably be able to handle any problems that- that happen."... well, we didn't. We left completely and, and those, those insurgents that were there, they were like little embers and they started to, they started to get fired up again. And then the next thing you know, you had ISIS. And by the way, ISIS marched back into Ramadi and they... Th- the reports we got from people on the ground that we knew was that ISIS came in and anyone that had worked with coalition forces in any level, they would murder the whole family. There's about 500 families that were completely murdered. So when we talk about these things, we have to be very sure about what we're gonna do. We have to recognize that we can't predict everything, 'cause we can't. I don't care how good you are, I don't care how many analysis you put on something, when you start throwing human nature into a leadership vacuum, all these things are gonna break out and it's gonna... It can go very, very bad. It can go well too, but it can go very, very bad. And so, what are we willing to sacrifice? What are we willing to spend? How many of our brothers and sisters in uniform are we willing to sacrifice to make this happen? And how does it help our national security? I believe right now, had we stayed there, I- Iraq would be a pretty strong positive place right now, if we had kind of completed the mission the way that we should have. Again, when we go back and we say, "Okay, well, what, what, what countries is it worth going into?" You know, where are we gonna go? What... How do we draw that line? How do we make that decision? For me, this is, this is what we do as leaders. What we do as leaders, we look at a situation and, and sometimes, you know, you gotta ask yourself, do we have a moral obligation to go somewhere? If there's a genocide happening, if there's another Rwanda happening, where 800,000 Tutsis are killed in 100 days with machetes, if that's going on, do we have a moral obligation to, to, to try and do something to help that? Hey, that's a decision you have to make. That's a hard decision to make as a leader, 'cause guess what? You're gonna lose 30, 40, 100 Americans that are going in there and trying to shut this thing down. But that's the, that's the type of thing we need to think about and that's why, as a leader, you wanna have an open mind, you wanna have your ego completely out of it-

    8. TGTulsi Gabbard1:02:29

       Yeah.

    9. JWJocko Willink1:02:29

       ... because it's real easy to say, "Oh, this is... We're America. This is what we do. This is... We're gonna win." It's like, "No, actually, we made a bad decision and we're actually leaving right now, because we think the expenditure from here on out is gonna be too high." Unfortunately, I think in Iraq, we paid the upfront expenditure. We had invested lives and treasure to, to try and get that place stabilized. We'd done a decent job, we were almost there, uh, and we left early. And all of a sudden we look around and go, "Oof." But that's why these things are important to, to think about thoroughly, as Tulsi said, before you go. We don't know what's going to happen. And, you know, if you're gonna get in a street fight, Joe, like, you, y-... Look, as m- as capable as you are, as capable as I am at street fighting, that's great. There is that 10% chance that that guy pulls out a knife and sticks it in your neck. And are you willing to sacrifice that? Now, if the guy's doing something to an innocent person and you go, "You know what? I gotta take that risk right now. I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this thing handled." Those are hard decisions to make and we have to think through them.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:03:32

        If there was... Very well said. If there was one thing, when I brought you two together, that I thought that you might disagree on, it would be the stance on non-interventionist foreign policy. Uh, and I, I don't know if that's even the right word, disagree, but I think there's nuances to these decisions and these things you two... And I think you would agree with that.

    11. TGTulsi Gabbard1:03:50

        Yeah, there certainly are. Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:03:50

        And Rwanda, what you talked about, is a great example.

    13. TGTulsi Gabbard1:03:53

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:03:53

        Do you have a moral responsibility to go in when you see some atrocities being committed? I mean, that's one thing that people either pro or con on is, uh, w- is the United States... Are we the police force of the world? Are we the moral high ground?

    15. TGTulsi Gabbard1:04:07

        Yeah. I, I, I don't... Uh, just, just listening to you, Jock, I think that, uh, I, I don't think that, that we actually disagree very much. You can tell me if I'm wrong, but, um, I think there, there are important distinctions to be made. Uh, you know, my opposition to regime change wars, um, should not be mistaken for isolationism. Uh, nor should it be mistaken for, um, anything other than what it is. Let's stop fighting, uh, regime change wars that are so often waged in the guise of humanitarianism, but they are pushed forward for other reasons, for their political reasons or corporate reasons or whatever. And they, they try to get the sympathy of the American people and they use the same words, you know, the, "This guy's a monster. This is this, th-..." When you actually peel back the layers, um, there are ulterior motives in place that set the pretext to use our military to go and, and overthrow a regime in another country or topple a dictator, uh, that ultimately ends up more often than not resulting in, in the lives of, uh, the suffering, more suffering for the people in the countries we're supposedly trying to go and help. Um, however, I've, I've been very strong on this, we're talking about Al Qaeda, ISIS, these other jihadist terrorists who, uh, are a threat to our national security. Uh, we need to stay strong in defeating that threat. Uh, that is our function as warriors, as service members in the military, is to go and protect and defend the American people and to take out those who, uh, seek to do us harm. Uh, in the case of a genocide, like Rwanda, um, where there is a killing of people at a massive scale, we look to see, "Hey, is there something that we can do to help end this genocide? Can we work with other countries? Can we bring together a coalition that can effectively stop this genocide?" And if the answer to that is yes, then we should do so. Um, but the, the problem that we've seen a lot more recently is, um, you'll see the word genocide being used very loosely, um, to, uh, as an excuse to go and say, "Hey, well, you know, go, go and topple this dictator who is, uh, inflicting a genocide on their own people without..."... it actually meeting the criteria of a genocide, when really there's a conflict within the- with- within the country, whether it be based on politics or power or whatever. That's a very different thing than this, um, then- then like what we saw i- in Rwanda, for example. So as- as you said s- I- I agree. I think- I think before we go in and make this decision to take military action, uh, we've really got to look very carefully at what is the situation? Where is the information that we're coming from? Is it coming from people who are pushing their own narrative for their own interests, um, where they're not really caring about the interest of the people in these countries or the interests of the American people and our troops? They got their own thing going on. We've got to be able to know that and understand that and, uh, approach this decision, um, not based on a- on a knee-jerk emotional reaction.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:07:20

        And, Jocko, what you were talking about earlier is- is so important here, that when you are on one side and the other side's doing something y- no matter what you can never say, "Well, that makes sense."

    17. JWJocko Willink1:07:30

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:07:30

        You hate that other side. This is a perfect example. When Trump wanted to pull people out of Syria, people on the left were saying, "No."

    19. JWJocko Willink1:07:38

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:07:38

        People on the left were supporting military action in Syria. And I was like, this is- this is bonkers.

    21. TGTulsi Gabbard1:07:44

        It's the upside down.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:07:45

        It's weird.

    23. JWJocko Willink1:07:46

        Yes. And it's because they despise t- they- they completely hate Trump.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:07:51

        Yeah.

    25. TGTulsi Gabbard1:07:52

        Yeah.

    26. JWJocko Willink1:07:52

        And I mean, I know you got friends that hate Trump more than anything in the world. I got friends that hate Trump more than anything in the world and- and it doesn't matter what he does. They have such a- a passionate hatred for him that he could- he could just, you know, cure cancer and- and people would say-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:08:10

        I have-

    28. JWJocko Willink1:08:10

        ... "Well, he did it for his own good."

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:08:12

        I have friends that hate him and I have friends that like him and I have friends that love him. And that's what's hilarious to me when whenever he does something, I love to call the friends who hate him-

    30. JWJocko Willink1:08:20

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:37:09