Joe Rogan Experience #1392 - Zach Bitter

1. 0:03 – 1:01

   Runner-friendly footwear: toe boxes, comfort, and injury risk

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      (claps) 'Sup, Zach?

   2. ZBZach Bitter0:04

      Hey. How's it going?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      Good, man. How are you?

   4. ZBZach Bitter0:06

      Good, good. Thanks for having me back on. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      My pleasure. Hey, um, thanks for turning me on to those shoes you wear too, those Altras.

   6. ZBZach Bitter0:11

      Oh, nice.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      I start- I started running with those.

   8. ZBZach Bitter0:13

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      I like 'em. I like 'em a lot. They're great.

   10. ZBZach Bitter0:15

       Uh-huh. Which ones... You got the Lone Peak RSMs there?

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:17

       I've got the... whatever the trail ones are.

   12. ZBZach Bitter0:19

       Okay. Uh-huh.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       You know? I like the wide foot... What's it called? Foot box? Is that what you call 'em?

   14. ZBZach Bitter0:23

       Foot-shaped toe box? Yeah. (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       Yeah. Toe box? Is that what's it called? Toe box. Yeah. Those are great.

   16. ZBZach Bitter0:27

       Cool, man. No, I'm glad you like 'em.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       I... And I feel like this is what you wear, so it gets me excited-

   18. ZBZach Bitter0:32

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       ... when I'm running.

   20. ZBZach Bitter0:33

       You know, it's really interesting-

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       (laughs)

   22. ZBZach Bitter0:34

       ... like, when you dive into kind of the world of footwear and stuff. And I learned this recently and... The number one indicator of low injury risks, which is what runners are always looking for, they're trying to minimize risks, so comfort is the identifier for that. So if you find yourself going into like a specialty running shop, ask 'em to try on a variety of different pairs, a variety of different models, and find the one that's most comfortable for you, and that's probably gonna lower your risk to the lowest you can- you can get from your footwear anyway.

2. 1:01 – 5:01

   Cushioning vs. firm platforms: where impact forces go

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:01

      What if you like the really smooshy ones? Aren't those supposed to be not so good for you?

   2. ZBZach Bitter1:05

      Yeah. No, that's a good question. I think it's, uh, one of those things where it's kinda half true, half not, where you kinda have to look at what you're lo- what- what's the purpose of what you're doing. So the way I kinda describe it is if I'm trying to strengthen my lower legs, uh, you know, I want that low cushion, that firm platform, because that's gonna really activate the muscles in the lower part of the leg. But if I'm dealing with some lower leg issues or a little sore, I did a workout and my calves are kinda sore or my ankle's sore, then cushion can be great because it's gonna relieve that kind of initial impact on the lower part of your legs. And the- the caveat though is those impact forces have to go somewhere, so they're kinda gonna move further up the kinetic chain. So what I usually tell people, if you're dealing with lower leg pain or injury, then you might wanna consider something a little more cushioned. And if you want... If you're dealing with something like in your knees or your hips, then getting rid of some of that cushion is gonna just keep that kind of more precise foot plant and maybe alleviate some of those impact forces from ending up in those areas. But at the end of the day, the mechanics of it all are gonna be the real driver. You want your foot to come underneath a bent knee, 'cause you're using your legs as kinda like a three-foot spring essentially. So if you can get that foot plant under bent knee, it's gonna absorb it in the way your body intends versus absorbing it in a way that could maybe send those impact forces into the wrong areas.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:20

      That's really interesting. You know, I was watching a video with this guy who is in his 70s-

   4. ZBZach Bitter2:25

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      ... who runs an under three-hour marathon.

   6. ZBZach Bitter2:27

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:27

      And, uh, he said that five years ago he hired a coach.

   8. ZBZach Bitter2:31

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:31

      Which is kinda crazy, like a 65-year-old dude-

   10. ZBZach Bitter2:34

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       ... hiring a coach, but trimmed a bunch of time off of his marathon, I think more than five minutes off of his marathon. I think it was quite a bit more than five minutes. And, uh, you know, he was running for a long time before that.

   12. ZBZach Bitter2:47

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:47

       But yet a coach sorta shortened his, his, his time in f- in finishing a 26-mile race at 70 years old.

   14. ZBZach Bitter2:55

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:55

       Which is-

   16. ZBZach Bitter2:55

       It's never too late. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:56

       Yeah. The bent knee is really important, 'cause a lot of folks who don't pay attention to the history of footwear don't understand that this fat cushioned heel that everybody sort of thinks of when you think of a running shoe, and you... when you watch a lot of people run that don't know any better, they run h- and they land on their heel-

   18. ZBZach Bitter3:16

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:16

       ... which is sort of something that was created... Was it by Nike? Is that what it was that it created that fat-bottomed heel thing?

   20. ZBZach Bitter3:22

       Yeah. They, they... I think they were the first one to do the offset-

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:25

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ZBZach Bitter3:25

       ... where it was traditionally, I think, was like 12 millimeters where your heel would be that much higher than your forefoot. Um, but I think even with... when we get into kinda like, say, heel striking versus forefoot or mid-foot striking, uh, heel striking is another thing where it's not inherently bad. Uh, it all comes down to what I was saying before, where if you can heel strike, but your foot is still underneath that bent knee, you're probably not gonna do anything too detrimental. So, like, there's-

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:47

       But it's not optimal, right?

   24. ZBZach Bitter3:49

       Uh, it probably depends on the specific runner and their-

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:51

       Oh, really?

   26. ZBZach Bitter3:52

       ... their particular gait. Yeah. There's-

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:53

       So you could have, like, extra long legs or something and maybe heel strike would work? Or extra short legs? Or what would it be?

   28. ZBZach Bitter3:59

       Yeah. I, I don't know for sure if there's like a, a height thing that would do it. I think it would maybe just come with, like, the mechanics of the way the person learned to run in the first place and- and just maybe some nuances with the way their body is- is kinda more or less designed. Uh, but I mean, there's- there's heel striking folks that are very... uh, are not injury prone or have never gotten injuries or hardly ever get injuries. Uh, but usually, I think if you're doing that, that's probably because you're under that bent knee and you're not-

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:24

       Hmm.

   30. ZBZach Bitter4:24

       ... kinda having that point where your foot is out in front of your knee, and then you kinda have that straight leg, but at a angle where it's gonna be, you know, not- not ideal for kind of absorbing those impacts.
3. 5:01 – 7:47

   Breaking the 100-mile and 12-hour world records: the ‘Six Days in the Dome’ race

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:01

      Right. You just run. What was the- what was the... Explain the record you broke. You ran 24, uh, in less... Well, it was 100 miles and it's a 24-hour time period, but you did it in 11 hours and 40 what minutes?

   2. ZBZach Bitter5:14

      Yeah. So, um, it was... Yeah. The... Let me... I'll explain a little bit better.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:18

      Okay.

   4. ZBZach Bitter5:18

      So it was, uh, the event itself was called Six Days in the Dome, and really what it was was you could do anything from a 24-hour event to a 48-hour event to a six-day event and just see how far you could run within that time frame.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:29

      Six days?

   6. ZBZach Bitter5:30

      Yeah. I know there's some crazy people out there. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:33

      (laughs)

   8. ZBZach Bitter5:33

      So just wait 'til David Goggins finds that event and then... (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:37

      (laughs)

   10. ZBZach Bitter5:37

       But yeah, so I've been, uh... It's interesting because there's not a lot of, uh, timed events that are necessarily structured for a 100 mile or for, like, 12 hours. So a lot of times you find yourself jumping into some of these other events that are longer in duration and just kinda using them as a way to try to run a fast 100 miler or- or a fast 12-hour. So, uh, the race director for- for that particular event had reached out to me 'cause he- he- he's known me for a while and knew that I was targeting fast 100-mile times, and just said, "Hey, I've got this cool event set up at the Olympic Training Facility in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, at the Petit Center, and I think it's gonna be pretty, uh, conducive for fast- for fast times."And, uh, and asked if I wanted to do it. So, uh, I actually didn't have an ideal timeline to, w- that I would have normally wanted to work with in terms of getting ready for it. But the training went really well and, uh, I went there targeting the 100-mile world record which was 11 hours 28 minutes and 3 seconds prior to that, and ended up running 11 hours 19 minutes and 13 seconds for 100 miles.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:39

       (exhales)

   12. ZBZach Bitter6:39

       And then, since we have, like, this 100-mile distance and also this 12-hour timed event kind of structure, you can find yourself, if you're under 12 hours, kind of double-dipping and getting two events for the price of one, I guess you could say. So I kept running after I hit 100 miles and ended up going 104.88 miles total in the 12-hour timeframe.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:56

       So that was another record? (laughs)

   14. ZBZach Bitter6:57

       Yeah. Mm-hmm. So it's two world records, uh, 100 miles and 12 hours.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:01

       Dude, six minutes and 48 seconds-

   16. ZBZach Bitter7:05

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:05

       ... for a pace for 100 miles is fucking bonkers. That is so fast. That's so crazy. That's such a fast pace, man.

   18. ZBZach Bitter7:15

       (laughs) Yeah. You know, it's funny, like, when you look at it, 'cause I think sometimes people look at, like, 100 miles in 11 hours and 19 minutes and there's not a lot of context in their mind, unless they're kind of familiar with ultra-marathon running.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:27

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ZBZach Bitter7:28

       But when you start to break it down into, like, the subcategories where it's like, well, that's like four, like, sub-three-hour marathons in a row, or I can't remember how many, or what the 5K time is. There's like, it's like 31 5Ks at some, some times. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:41

       That's four sub-three-hour marathons in a row?

   22. ZBZach Bitter7:44

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       Wow. (laughs) That's so crazy.

   24. ZBZach Bitter7:47

       (laughs)

4. 7:47 – 10:24

   What Zach actually eats: animal-heavy base + carb periodization

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:47

      That's so fast. And are you still eating mostly meat?

   2. ZBZach Bitter7:51

      Uh, so, you know, th- this gets brought up quite a bit, I think, because, I mean, I eat a ton of animal products, for sure. Uh, but, uh, you know, I wouldn't classify myself as a quote unquote "carnivore" or quite in that c-

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:02

      Well, this is 'cause the carnivore diet people wanna claim you.

   4. ZBZach Bitter8:05

      Right. Yeah. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:05

      And w- we discussed this kind of the last time you were here-

   6. ZBZach Bitter8:08

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:08

      ... where you, you take in a lot of glucose and you, you ramp up your carbohydrates considerably before a race.

   8. ZBZach Bitter8:14

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:14

      But, like, what is, what is your, your, what is a daily diet? Let's say in training, like, you're preparing for something like this, what's a daily diet for you like?

   10. ZBZach Bitter8:21

       Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, let's jump into that. I think it, there is some nuance within that, even, because when you think of my lifestyle, the way I, like, describe it is if you took a calendar year and you grabbed a single day out of there, and you grabbed a day where I was at, like, a peak-training day versus a recovery day-

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:35

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ZBZach Bitter8:35

       ... those are, like, so drastically different in terms-

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:37

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ZBZach Bitter8:37

       ... of my energy, ene- my, my energy demands. Uh, so, like, things tend to fluctuate quite a bit and change quite a bit, and I think that's oftentimes what confuses people 'cause they wanna... They look at what I'm doing, say, on race day, or they look at what I'm doing on one of my big workout days, or my rest day, and think that's what I'm doing across the board. So, you know, when you get the folks saying, "Oh, well, Zach follows a carnivore diet," they're probably looking at, like, a post-race recovery day where then I might be eating almost all just animal products, a lot of eggs, a lot of salmon, uh, you know, red meat, uh, that sort of stuff. Um, but if you pick a day out where I'm doing, like, a big training day, doing, like, a 30-mile run or something like that, uh, that's where I'm gonna kind of bring back some of the carbohydrates to try to supplement that activity. And the best way to maybe describe it is, uh, you know, there's, like, this, this, uh, like, kind of train low/race high or this carb periodization concept that's getting more momentum behind it, and, and more studies and science behind it too. There's some interesting, uh, folks that are looking into this in more detail. And if folks are really interested in doing a deep dive in it, there's a guy named, uh, Dr. Mark Bubs. He wrote a book called Peak, and he kind of dives into, kind of, like, some of the nutrition science, where it's been and kind of where it's, it's kinda heading, and, and they highlight some of that. And one of the big things they s- they're starting to recognize that even with elite athletes, when you're periodizing your training like I do, uh, you know, your nutrition should be being periodized as well. Uh, you know, the science is pretty clear that, like, if you're doing a workout and you take in, uh, glucose or fructose, uh, I think most science says a two-to-one ratio is ideal for maximizing the amount you can take in. Then, I mean, you're going to give yourself an advantage. That's like rocket fuel. So then it becomes a question of, like, do you need that 100% of the time, or do you even wanna do it 100% of the time? 'Cause when we look at elite a-

5. 10:24 – 13:49

   Fuel absorption and sports nutrition: the gut as the limiter

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:24

      Can I pause you right here?

   2. ZBZach Bitter10:25

      Yeah. Uh-huh.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:25

      When you, when you say, "Glucose two to one," like, what do you mean by that? And what, and, and-

   4. ZBZach Bitter10:28

      Like, glucose to fructose.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:29

      Okay.

   6. ZBZach Bitter10:30

      Because what they found out is when they started doing a lot of, like, the exercise science in nutrition was that the real limiter is your gut. So, like-

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:39

      Hmm.

   8. ZBZach Bitter10:39

      ... o- on paper-

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:40

      So, absorption?

   10. ZBZach Bitter10:41

       Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. There's a finite amount you can absorb, and you increase the amount you can u- you can absorb on average if you have that two-to-one ratio versus all of one or the other.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:51

       So two glucose to one sucrose?

   12. ZBZach Bitter10:53

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:54

       Hmm. Interesting. And now, what, what are the different sources for glucose versus sucrose? Like, sucrose is simple sugar that you would get... Is that more like a refined sugar?

   14. ZBZach Bitter11:03

       Yeah. Yeah. You, I think, like, uh, the, the way, like, and most, most, like, sports supplements and things like that are gonna be designed to kind of meet those, those specific... Because they're looking at the literature and they're seeing, like, "Okay, this is how you optimize it."

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:16

       So, like, a POWERADE or a GATORADE or something like that-

   16. ZBZach Bitter11:18

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:18

       ... would be a two to one?

   18. ZBZach Bitter11:19

       Yeah. I'd have to look to see exactly if they have that. But, uh, my guess would be they would be if they're looking at, at the research and where that's kind of at. Um, but yeah. So, like, really when it... The question that I think needs to be asked with a lot of this stuff is, like, if I wanna make a workout feel as easy as possible, if I'm trying, if I can get in, like, say, 60 grams of carbohydrate per hour, it's probably gonna do that. Like, my pace, my perceived effort at that pace is probably gonna feel easier. But then you have to ask the question, like, how often do you need it to feel that easy? So for me, the answer to that is, like, well, if I'm doing something really strenuous or something that's in a little bit of a gray area where it's just fast enough to dip into the glycogen stores, but just slow enough that I can do it for quite a while, like, maybe even a couple hours, then you're kind of in this area where, uh, that could be an advantage for me from a performance standpoint. But if I'm going out for an easy run of, like, 60 to 90 minutes, and it's gonna be, like, a-... two to three out of 10 perceived effort anyway, like, there's no real need for me to be hitting glucose during that or, you know, a sports drink during that to make that feel even easier yet. 'Cause my goal isn't necessarily to, you know, make an easy run feel even easier, I guess is the way to maybe describe it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:33

       Hilarious that you'd call a 90-minute run easy.

   20. ZBZach Bitter12:35

       (laughs) But-

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       Oh, nothing. Just a stroll, just a few dozen miles.

   22. ZBZach Bitter12:38

       Well, and I think that, that also brings up a really good point too where, like, a lot of this stuff when we're looking at carbohydrate usage and performances, we're looking at elite athletes. We're looking at folks that are training for like, you know, the Olympics. You know, sometimes they're even Olympic medalists. And that's just not a very good comparison, I think, to the average person who's out there running-

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:58

       Yeah.

   24. ZBZach Bitter12:58

       ... 'cause, you know, their, their ang- their purposes are different, you know, their objectives are different, their lives are very different. Like one is doing basically everything around a specic- specific date and distance and trying to run as fast as they can on that date, and other person may be trying to run as fast as they can, but there's so many other factors in life like, uh, their work, their relationships, their, um, you know, uh, the level of training they're actually able to have with the time they have, and then also, like, you know, managing their own health and nutrition. Because like, you know, elite athletes don't have a very rosy picture in terms of long-term health either. So for someone who's like, you know, maybe 10, 20 pounds overweight and is trying to run to get into shape or train to get into shape or something like that, th- they're probably thinking just as much about health as they are about performance, so for them to be, you know, shuttling in 60 grams of carbohydrate every hour during training and racing is, is probably not the direction that they'd wanna go.

6. 13:49 – 19:09

   Building a 100-mile training plan: specificity, micro-stressing, and intervals

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:49

      Now when you get ready to do something like this 100-mile run, um, how many miles do you run in a typical day and do you ramp that up or do you just give yourself a base and know that you can push through? Like how, how do you handle that?

   2. ZBZach Bitter14:02

      Yeah, so I'll, I'll build up my training. The way I kinda describe it is like I'm always focusing on specificity kinda being king. So depending on the race, distance, and the intensity is kinda how I'm gonna structure my workouts. So the rule of thumb that I use is the closer I get to the workout, the more specific the workouts I do are gonna be towards that race, distance, and intensity. Uh, so for me what that oftentimes means since I'm training for like 100-mile distance races is early in a training block I might be doing some, like, shorter interval work like VO2 max. Like an example of that would maybe be like a three-minute, uh, kind of almost all-out effort followed by like a three-minute recovery jog and then another three-minute interval like that, some of those real short interval sessions.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:41

      And how many s- of those would you do in a row? How many sprints versus recovery?

   4. ZBZach Bitter14:45

      Yeah, uh, it, it'll depend. I'll start, like, pretty easy on the first one I, the fir- when I first started I might just do three by three on that. And, but my goal really is to, every week is to kind of build volume within that. So that first week it might be just three of 'em, but by like say the eighth week I might do a total of like 24 to 27 minutes with a volume within that VO2 max context.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:05

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ZBZach Bitter15:06

      So it's, it's, uh, really interesting 'cause like, you know, I could go out on any one day and do like maybe 10 of those, but if I do that and then it takes me like a week and a half to recover from that session, it's not nearly as probably effective as if I spread that out a little bit and say I did like five by three and then five by three three days after that.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      You give your body a chance to recover-

   8. ZBZach Bitter15:24

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:24

      ... and build versus-

   10. ZBZach Bitter15:25

       Yep.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       ... just destroying it all in one and then feeling like shit for a couple weeks.

   12. ZBZach Bitter15:29

       Exactly.

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       You know?

   14. ZBZach Bitter15:29

       I like to, I like to call it micro-stressing when I'm working with folks. In my own training I'm like, "We wanna micro-stress. We wanna stress you just enough to elicit a response and so you get stronger, and then we wanna do that over and over and over again."

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       Are you aware... Uh, y- y- I'm sure you are, you know who Pavel Tsatsouline is?

   16. ZBZach Bitter15:45

       Yeah, mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:45

       Yeah, so he's got this sort of concept when it comes to weight lifting with kettlebells in particular called greasing the groove.

   18. ZBZach Bitter15:51

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:51

       Whereas instead of doing all these r- c- sets to failure, you would just do, um, like half of what you're capable of-

   20. ZBZach Bitter16:00

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:00

       ... and then do it again in, in a more frequent pace. Like, uh, do it again rather, you know, do it again on Wednesday, do it again on Friday-

   22. ZBZach Bitter16:07

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       ... and then give yourself a lot of time in between each individual activity too, particularly when you're training for strength. He, uh, actually recommends as much as 10 minutes of recovery in between sets which is-

   24. ZBZach Bitter16:19

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:19

       ... you know, kinda cr- I mean most people don't have the time for that.

   26. ZBZach Bitter16:21

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       You know, six sets is an hour in. I mean it seems like you're just laying around at the gym. People would, you know, if you were at the gym-

   28. ZBZach Bitter16:27

       Yeah. (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       ... people would mock you. But that's his protocol.

   30. ZBZach Bitter16:29

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, I think it, you know, endurance is, I like to say it's a patient person's game. So I think if you can build that volume in a, in a micro-stressing or in a, like a sustainable way, that's what's gonna keep you, or get you strong and it's also gonna make it less likely to get injured, I think.
7. 19:09 – 25:13

   Race pacing tools: watches, Strava logs, and perceived exertion

   1. ZBZach Bitter19:09

      You, I see your watch. What is, what kind of watch you wearing? It's a, a Coros APEX.

   2. JRJoe Rogan19:14

      Well, I've never heard of that one before.

   3. ZBZach Bitter19:16

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan19:16

      Is that a GPS watch, one of those, now?

   5. ZBZach Bitter19:18

      Yeah, it's, it's a relative... They're a relatively new brand, like in, in running. I, I guess, like the two kinda big players historically have been Suunto and Garmin.

   6. JRJoe Rogan19:26

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ZBZach Bitter19:26

      And, uh, yeah, Coros kinda came to market a few years ago. They wanted to try to make, like take that high-end technology, but make it-

   8. JRJoe Rogan19:34

      There it is.

   9. ZBZach Bitter19:34

      ... maybe a little more affordable and also make it user-friendly, 'cause now everyone's... They're, they, they care more about the post-workout or the post-run data that you're uploading to these platforms like Strava. So, like Coros kinda made it a big, uh, uh, point to make it real user-friendly on that end. So you like, I get done with the run and I load it up to the app and it's up on Strava, like within a few seconds sometimes. And, uh, then you go dissect all the data, like how much elevation gain and loss, your pace per mile, uh, all that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan20:02

       And is this, uh, primarily a running watch?

   11. ZBZach Bitter20:05

       Uh, I mean, you could use it for running or cycling or hiking or mountaineering or anything like that. It's got like all those kinda bells and whistles on it.

   12. JRJoe Rogan20:12

       Oh, okay. So, so if you're... My, my question was, like so if you're running, how l- You, uh, you're checking your watch if you're doing a marathon, you're making sure that you're not going crazy 'cause it's-

   13. ZBZach Bitter20:22

       Yep.

   14. JRJoe Rogan20:22

       Is it otherwise you just have to kinda gauge it just based on the pack and based on how you feel?

   15. ZBZach Bitter20:27

       Yeah, and I think that's actually a good, especially when you get into ultra-marathoning, I think the metric that people should dial in the most is their rate of perceived exertion-

   16. JRJoe Rogan20:35

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ZBZach Bitter20:36

       ... 'cause that's something that's not gonna necessarily lie to you. Uh, like if you base your thing, your stuff off heart rate exclusively or a pace exclusively, you can find yourself like justifying something that's not necessarily where you need to be. And if something like that malfunctions and that was your like only compass, then you're in trouble. So I like, when I'm t- doing my training, and when I'm working with other folks, I like to use heart rate and I like to use pacing and stuff like that. But ultimately, I'm trying to get the person to really understand like how hard is this effort and then across the board, uh, from like very easy to very difficult. And then when we, comes time to race, we can kind of dial in, like with this is the intensity you're trying to look for so that they can kinda feel that out.

   18. JRJoe Rogan21:14

       Do you use a metric? Like do you, do you say like, "How do you feel, 1 to 10?"

   19. ZBZach Bitter21:18

       Yeah, pretty mu- I, I l- have a scale of like 1 to 10 that I'll use a lot of times.

   20. JRJoe Rogan21:21

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ZBZach Bitter21:22

       And there's like a v- whole variety. Like most people are gonna be using some sort of like, probably like zone system of training where there's like, there's numbers that are associated with heart rate ranges or intensities, and there will be descriptors. And you know, there's some that are like one through twenty, there's some that are kinda one through five, and then one through ten, and-

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:39

       Isn't that so, so weird too, right? Because it's so s- it's subjective.

   23. ZBZach Bitter21:42

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:42

       I mean, the Whoop, Whoop Strap-

   25. ZBZach Bitter21:44

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan21:44

       ... is one, something I wear and it uses something like that, like, "What, what's your perceived exertion?" I'm like, "Eh, v- eh, mm."

   27. ZBZach Bitter21:50

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan21:50

       I just push it towards the far right, I don't know.

   29. ZBZach Bitter21:52

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan21:52

       Like, what does that mean? Like it's, it's, uh, so hard to gauge-
8. 25:13 – 33:27

   Injury story: a sacroiliac stress fracture from terrain changes

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:13

      What happened?

   2. ZBZach Bitter25:14

      Uh, I had a stress fracture on my right Sacro Ilia. Uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan25:17

      What is that?

   4. ZBZach Bitter25:17

      It's ki- it's basically like on your tailbone.

   5. JRJoe Rogan25:19

      Oh, ouch.

   6. ZBZach Bitter25:20

      Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan25:20

      What the fuck happened?

   8. ZBZach Bitter25:22

      So what I think, I don't know, it's hard to know for sure, but what was ... The way it was described to me when I was going in and getting that stuff checked out was what likely happened was I had such a history in kinda flat running, that I was actually preparing for a race that had a lot more climbing and descending, so I started changing my training to more climbing and descending. And when I did that, like, uh, one thing that sometimes happens when you're running a lot of flat hard surfaces is your, like, ankles and your hips can get pretty tight from that real, like, kinda uniform, like, uh, mechanic that you're doing. So, like, my range of motion was semi-limited, so when I was doing some of that hard downhill and uphill running, I just probably wasn't very efficient with my form and it ended up that, kinda what we were talking before, those impact forces ended up in the wrong spot and then the stress fracture occurred.

   9. JRJoe Rogan26:05

      That is crazy. You broke your ass.

   10. ZBZach Bitter26:07

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:08

       You literally broke your ass.

   12. ZBZach Bitter26:09

       Yeah, uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:09

       Like people always talk about, "Oh, he was busting his ass."

   14. ZBZach Bitter26:12

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:12

       Like, you actually did. So where is it, Jamie? Right there? Oh, Jesus Christ. It's so, it's ... It literally is your ass bone.

   16. ZBZach Bitter26:19

       You know, and the, the really goofy thing about it too was, uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:21

       Wow.

   18. ZBZach Bitter26:22

       ... when I first had the pain surface for that, it was kind of in, like, the, like, lower back glute area is where it surfaced, so I thought I had, like, a sciatic issue. Like I-

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:31

       Oh, makes sense.

   20. ZBZach Bitter26:33

       So I went into the doctor and they were like, "Okay, let's try some, like, active release therapy and let's see if we can get this thing to loosen up."

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:39

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ZBZach Bitter26:39

       And we just were working on it, working on it and, like it would like clear up where I wouldn't notice it if I was walking around, but then anytime I'd go for a run or try to go for a run, I'd get that sharp pain right away.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:48

       Mm.

   24. ZBZach Bitter26:49

       And, uh, so after about, I think it was maybe four weeks or so, we just, we, we had been doing a ton of active release, a ton of mobility work and then, uh, uh, like it wasn't going away so he's like, "Well, let's just get an MRI and see what's going on in there." And they did the MRI, got the results back and he said, "There's nothing there, so you start running again." So I started running again. I ran like, I think it was two or three days maybe. Very short, like two miles and then three miles then maybe five or something like that, and then I got a call back from the doctor and he's like, "Oh, turns out we took a second look at the MRI, there is a stress fracture there." (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:20

       Oh, Jesus.

   26. ZBZach Bitter27:20

       And then w- and I told him, like, "Well I've just ran the first three pain-free days I ever, I have since this, this issue." And-

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:26

       Oh, it was a mind fuck.

   28. ZBZach Bitter27:28

       Yeah, well and I think what, what he said maybe was going on there was it was, I mean it was a very fine stress fracture. It wasn't ... I mean sometimes when people have a fracture on their Sacro Ilia, it's like a big enough fracture where like it can be out for like a year and-

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:41

       Whoa.

   30. ZBZach Bitter27:41

       Yeah, yeah, so it can be a really bad injury. Um, but he said maybe the mobility and the strength work I was doing while I had that to try to rehab kind of strengthened the areas around it enough that when I just was running flat, really slow, really easy, that protected that area enough-
9. 33:27 – 43:26

   Heat training and hydration in Phoenix: strategies, electrolytes, and tradeoffs

   1. ZBZach Bitter33:27

      Uh-huh. Well, and that's, that's the funny thing too 'cause when I was training for that 100-mile 12-hour world record, it was through the summer 'cause the race was in Aug- August.

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:34

      Oof.

   3. ZBZach Bitter33:34

      So my peak training was like 110 degrees some days. And the funny thing too is the Pettit Center where I did the race, it was actually built for speed skating and some hockey rinks. So they keep it at like 60 degrees.

   4. JRJoe Rogan33:45

      Ooh, that's nice.

   5. ZBZach Bitter33:46

      And I re- I remember (laughs) one day when I was running, it was like one of the hottest days of the summer. I remember thinking like, "I'm gonna race literally at half this temperature." (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:53

      Yeah.

   7. ZBZach Bitter33:55

      So it's really funny when you, when you see, when you see that. And I think, uh, I'm, I'm no expert at it by any means, but I think there's some pretty cool like studies and stuff that ... of the effects that happen when you are training in some of those extreme heats, like what happens. It ... For the way it was described to me is it kinda stimulates training at altitude to a degree.

   8. JRJoe Rogan34:12

      Mm.

   9. ZBZach Bitter34:12

      Uh, so who knows? Maybe some of that helps.

   10. JRJoe Rogan34:14

       That makes sense. Well, similar to hot yoga, right?

   11. ZBZach Bitter34:16

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan34:17

       That's ... They're doing some studies at Harvard, I believe. I think it's Harvard. Someone was explaining the whole deal to me. This is not something that I read. But essentially what they're doing is they're trying to find out whether or not hot yoga, these 90-minute hot yoga sessions, replicate some of the known benefits of sauna.

   13. ZBZach Bitter34:33

       Uh-huh.

   14. JRJoe Rogan34:34

       Because, you know, obviously the temperature is not as hot. They keep it ... The hot yoga place I go to, I think they keep it at 105 degrees.

   15. ZBZach Bitter34:41

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan34:42

       Versus sauna, you know, gets much, much hotter than that. You're in like the 180s, which is what I like. And but the idea is that when your body is extremely, uh, stressed, when you're doing these poses and you're sweating like crazy, that your body core temperature rises basically to a similar level than if you're just sitting-

   17. ZBZach Bitter35:01

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan35:01

       ... in a sauna. So you get a very similar response.

   19. ZBZach Bitter35:04

       Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. Um, so I, I try to remember that when it's the summer in Phoenix so I don't get too miserable. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan35:11

       Get burnt out by it. Yeah.

   21. ZBZach Bitter35:12

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan35:12

       It's got ... You gotta be doing yourself good. Um, Kronk Gym, which is one of the most famous boxing gyms in history, Emanuel Steward, who was a ... just a wizard of boxing and he trained Tommy Hearns-

   23. ZBZach Bitter35:23

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan35:24

       ... and you know, some of the, the like the all-time greats of that era. He would crank the temperature, and this is in Detroit. They would crank the temperature up really hot. So you would go into that gym and it would be that way, like for that specific reason, 'cause he believed that it increased endurance.

   25. ZBZach Bitter35:39

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, it's, it's interesting stuff. But I'll still take January and February. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan35:45

       For, for comfort. Now what do you do in terms of like how do you hydrate yourself and like what, what kind of durations are we talking about? Like say if you're ... if it's 110 degrees outside, 120, what, how ... What was the hottest you ran at?

   27. ZBZach Bitter35:58

       I think 110 is what it got up to.

   28. JRJoe Rogan36:00

       110.

   29. ZBZach Bitter36:00

       And I, I try to get out relatively early so that it's not like 110 from start to finish. So like if I get out say at like 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning, you know, it might be in the 80s, high 80s, and be working its way up so that like I'm-... finishing, and it might be 110. Uh, for my key workouts, the way I structure my training usually when I'm kind of in peak is I'll do the, my biggest workout in the morning. And then I might go out and do, like, a second run that's, like, a little shorter, or quite a bit shorter in most cases, and really low-intensity. And, you know, then sometimes, if it's the afternoon in Phoenix, that's when I'd see, like, that 110. But I'm usually not out for more than, like, 45, 60 minutes for those. Uh, so hydrating is, is interesting because, you know, I grew up in the Midwest, so I was very familiar with running in hot, humid stuff in the summer. And, uh, you know, the dry desert heat though, it seems like you get thirsty a lot quicker and a lot more-

   30. JRJoe Rogan36:50

       Mm-hmm.
10. 43:26 – 52:59

    Salt, cooking, and the sous vide ‘plastic bag’ rabbit hole

    1. JRJoe Rogan43:26

       Do you have a specific salt that you like? Do you use Himalayan? Do you use sea salt? Like what do you, what do you like to use?

    2. ZBZach Bitter43:31

       Yeah, I like to get sea salt. Uh, lately I've been using, uh, this stuff called Redmond's S- Sea Salt. They, they get their salt outta like, uh, it's... I believe it's in Utah, in Salt Lake.

    3. JRJoe Rogan43:42

       Oh, okay.

    4. ZBZach Bitter43:42

       And I, I don't know like if the, how accurate or whatever this is, but like they, I heard that if you can get an inland sea salt, it's better because it's not like, uh, it doesn't have potential, as many potential toxins that you're gonna find in like ocean sea salt.

    5. JRJoe Rogan43:56

       Mercury and things along those lines.

    6. ZBZach Bitter43:57

       Yeah, mm-hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan43:57

       Yeah, that's what the, the idea about Himalayan sea salt is, right?

    8. ZBZach Bitter44:01

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan44:01

       Because it's no real fuckin' sea in the Himalayas.

    10. ZBZach Bitter44:03

        Right, yeah. (laughs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan44:04

        (laughs) Right? What, I mean, wha- is it called Himalayan sea salt or am I just making that up? Or is it Himalayan salt?

    12. ZBZach Bitter44:11

        I think it's sea salt, right?

    13. JRJoe Rogan44:12

        Yeah.

    14. ZBZach Bitter44:12

        Like the pink Himalayan sea salt?

    15. JRJoe Rogan44:13

        Right.

    16. ZBZach Bitter44:14

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan44:14

        But how was it sea salt? Explain that. How does that work? Was it an older sea? Like one of those like-

    18. ZBZach Bitter44:21

        I wonder if that's what it is and it's-

    19. NANarrator44:22

        It's Himalayan salt.

    20. ZBZach Bitter44:23

        ... it's just like these big salt... Oh, it is just salt?

    21. JRJoe Rogan44:25

        Right.

    22. ZBZach Bitter44:25

        Okay.

    23. JRJoe Rogan44:25

        Oh, it's just Himalayan salt? No?

    24. NANarrator44:27

        It both comes up.

    25. JRJoe Rogan44:28

        Oh, yeah, I think I've heard it.

    26. ZBZach Bitter44:29

        Like an old sea that's no longer there and they just have the big salt deposits leftover?

    27. JRJoe Rogan44:32

        Right, like that's wh- a lot of Montana is the great western in- inland sea.

    28. ZBZach Bitter44:38

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JRJoe Rogan44:38

        You know, like millions of years ago.

    30. ZBZach Bitter44:40

        Mm-hmm.
11. 52:59 – 57:00

    From nutrition to ecology: fish, mercury, and overfishing parallels to bison hunting

    1. NANarrator52:59

       (laughs)

    2. JRJoe Rogan52:59

       Well, I feel like if you don't cook in it every day all ... Like, um, when, uh, the director of The Cove was in here ... I always fucking have a hard time saying his last name. Psahoyas.

    3. ZBZach Bitter53:10

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JRJoe Rogan53:10

       Psahoyas, Louis Psahoyas was in here. He was explaining how, um, he was eating a lot of fish. Before he became a vegan, he, he was eating a ton of fish. And his mercury levels had really shot up-

    5. ZBZach Bitter53:22

       Oh.

    6. JRJoe Rogan53:22

       ... because a lot of fish has, like, a lot of fucking mercury. And if you eat fish for morning, noon and night every day, day after day after day-

    7. ZBZach Bitter53:29

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JRJoe Rogan53:29

       ... you can develop high mercur- mercury-

    9. ZBZach Bitter53:31

       Sure.

    10. JRJoe Rogan53:31

        ... levels. But then I talked to other scientists, they said, "Yes, if you're eating it every day, all day."

    11. ZBZach Bitter53:37

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JRJoe Rogan53:37

        But if you just eat fish, like, once a week, you're fine. Like, don't worry about it. Or even twice a week. So I was like, "Oh, okay."

    13. ZBZach Bitter53:43

        Did they say anything? 'Cause I remember, like, when ... I think it was probably when the Mediterranean diet got popular, people were all in on salmon and stuff-

    14. JRJoe Rogan53:51

        Mm-hmm.

    15. ZBZach Bitter53:51

        ... and seafood and, uh, then they said everyone went wild-caught.

    16. JRJoe Rogan53:55

        Yes.

    17. ZBZach Bitter53:55

        And, and I guess that's where you'd get the mercury. But then the ... And they would say, like, the farm-raised salmon are not as good for you, for whatever reason. And, but then I guess now farm-raised is what you're supposed to get, because that's gonna ... They can control that environment and make sure there's no mer-

    18. JRJoe Rogan54:08

        But I heard ... What Louis was saying was that it's even worse.

    19. ZBZach Bitter54:10

        Oh, really?

    20. JRJoe Rogan54:11

        Yeah, in terms of, like, the heavy metals and tox-

    21. ZBZach Bitter54:13

        Oh.

    22. JRJoe Rogan54:13

        Because you gotta think, they're just sitting there.

    23. ZBZach Bitter54:15

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan54:16

        You know? Like, it's ... Like, at least in the ocean, they're, they're migrating, they're moving around, they're swimming to different places. Like, that p- p- that podcast that I did with him was so disturbing, 'cause I've always had this weird ... Not weird, um, just this sort of, um, peripheral fear of what we're doing to the ocean.

    25. ZBZach Bitter54:33

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan54:33

        You know, this, like, thing, like, "Man, w- w- how many assholes are out there just giant nets-

    27. ZBZach Bitter54:38

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan54:38

        ... just pulling fish outta the ocean right now as we speak? And how, how much is that sustainable?"

    29. ZBZach Bitter54:43

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan54:43

        I mean, I, I think individual people fishing is sustainable.
12. 57:00 – 1:04:13

    Human Performance Outliers podcast: protein research and regenerative agriculture debates

    1. JRJoe Rogan57:00

       You know, but it's just, it's weird. Are you still doing, um ... You, you were doing a podcast with, uh, Dr. Shawn Baker, right?

    2. ZBZach Bitter57:09

       Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, Human Performance Outliers podcast. We've been, uh, doing ... I think we've got maybe 175 episodes now, so we've been going-

    3. JRJoe Rogan57:18

       Oh, so you guys are still haul at it?

    4. ZBZach Bitter57:20

       Yeah, yeah. We're not ... We, we had a stretch where we were doing about three a week, but we've kind of backed off a little bit of that, where just scheduling and stuff gets harder and harder.

    5. JRJoe Rogan57:27

       How do you do it? Do you do it over the phone? 'Cause-

    6. ZBZach Bitter57:28

       Yeah, that's always the hardest part is-

    7. JRJoe Rogan57:30

       Where is he?

    8. ZBZach Bitter57:30

       He's, he's, uh, down in, in Southern California, so-

    9. JRJoe Rogan57:33

       Okay, and then you're in-

    10. ZBZach Bitter57:35

        Phoenix.

    11. JRJoe Rogan57:35

        ... Arizona.

    12. ZBZach Bitter57:36

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JRJoe Rogan57:36

        And so do you have guests and do that over the phone?

    14. ZBZach Bitter57:38

        Yeah, we'll bring 'em in and we'll record with, like, Zoom video recording and then, uh, bring it up. But that's always the hardest part is getting the audio quality for that, because-

    15. JRJoe Rogan57:47

        It's awkward too, right?

    16. ZBZach Bitter57:48

        Yeah, uh-huh.

    17. JRJoe Rogan57:49

        I, I really ... I've only done over the last few years, I did the Snowden interview-

    18. ZBZach Bitter57:53

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan57:53

        ... which I did remotely, and I did one, uh, with, uh, Dr. Anthony West, who's an Egy- Egyptologist.

    20. ZBZach Bitter57:59

        Uh-huh.

    21. JRJoe Rogan57:59

        I did it with him. But, um, most, most of the time when you do it with a, with Skype or anything along those lines, it's like you're kinda talking over each other. There's this weird delay. It feels inorganic.

    22. ZBZach Bitter58:12

        Uh-huh. Yeah, in person's the way to go-

    23. JRJoe Rogan58:14

        Yeah.

    24. ZBZach Bitter58:14

        ... uh, if you can do it, so props to you for getting it done. (laughs)

    25. JRJoe Rogan58:17

        But I just ... Well, I mean, I just don't ... I mean, I just don't, um, I don't like it. It feels ... I feel ... I don't feel connected.

    26. ZBZach Bitter58:25

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JRJoe Rogan58:25

        Right? It feels awkward.

    28. ZBZach Bitter58:27

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan58:27

        It doesn't, doesn't make a good product, I don't think, as good a product for me.

    30. ZBZach Bitter58:30

        No, for sure. Yeah, you're taking a step back if you do remote, for sure. So, um, yeah, but it's been, it's been a cool experience just from a learning standpoint. I mean, we ... I don't think we really have a specific direction. I mean, Shawn's, Shawn's, uh, kinda the guy that everyone looks to at, from the carnivore thing, so I think sometimes we get identified as carnivore, but, uh, we definitely go down a bunch of different rabbit holes. Like, we did, um ... We've had a lot of, like, uh, the, some of the protein researchers come on and talk about some of that stuff, like, uh, Dr. Stu Phillips, or Professor Stu Phillips, uh, Professor Don Layman, Professor, uh, Jose Antonio.

Episode duration: 2:19:19