Joe Rogan Experience #1392 - Zach Bitter

Zach Bitter is an endurance athlete, ultramarathon runner and coach. He recently broke 2 world records in running: 100-mile (11:19:18) & the 12-Hour record (104.88 miles).

Joe RoganhostZach Bitterguest

Dec 3, 20192h 19mWatch on YouTube ↗

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150 min read · 30,025 words

0:00 – 15:00
(claps) 'Sup, Zach? …
1. JRJoe Rogan
  (claps) 'Sup, Zach?
2. ZBZach Bitter
  Hey. How's it going?
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Good, man. How are you?
4. ZBZach Bitter
  Good, good. Thanks for having me back on. (laughs)
5. JRJoe Rogan
  My pleasure. Hey, um, thanks for turning me on to those shoes you wear too, those Altras.
6. ZBZach Bitter
  Oh, nice.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  I start- I started running with those.
8. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  I like 'em. I like 'em a lot. They're great.
10. ZBZach Bitter
  Uh-huh. Which ones... You got the Lone Peak RSMs there?
11. JRJoe Rogan
  I've got the... whatever the trail ones are.
12. ZBZach Bitter
  Okay. Uh-huh.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  You know? I like the wide foot... What's it called? Foot box? Is that what you call 'em?
14. ZBZach Bitter
  Foot-shaped toe box? Yeah. (laughs)
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Toe box? Is that what's it called? Toe box. Yeah. Those are great.
16. ZBZach Bitter
  Cool, man. No, I'm glad you like 'em.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  I... And I feel like this is what you wear, so it gets me excited-
18. ZBZach Bitter
  (laughs)
19. JRJoe Rogan
  ... when I'm running.
20. ZBZach Bitter
  You know, it's really interesting-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
22. ZBZach Bitter
  ... like, when you dive into kind of the world of footwear and stuff. And I learned this recently and... The number one indicator of low injury risks, which is what runners are always looking for, they're trying to minimize risks, so comfort is the identifier for that. So if you find yourself going into like a specialty running shop, ask 'em to try on a variety of different pairs, a variety of different models, and find the one that's most comfortable for you, and that's probably gonna lower your risk to the lowest you can- you can get from your footwear anyway.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  What if you like the really smooshy ones? Aren't those supposed to be not so good for you?
24. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah. No, that's a good question. I think it's, uh, one of those things where it's kinda half true, half not, where you kinda have to look at what you're lo- what- what's the purpose of what you're doing. So the way I kinda describe it is if I'm trying to strengthen my lower legs, uh, you know, I want that low cushion, that firm platform, because that's gonna really activate the muscles in the lower part of the leg. But if I'm dealing with some lower leg issues or a little sore, I did a workout and my calves are kinda sore or my ankle's sore, then cushion can be great because it's gonna relieve that kind of initial impact on the lower part of your legs. And the- the caveat though is those impact forces have to go somewhere, so they're kinda gonna move further up the kinetic chain. So what I usually tell people, if you're dealing with lower leg pain or injury, then you might wanna consider something a little more cushioned. And if you want... If you're dealing with something like in your knees or your hips, then getting rid of some of that cushion is gonna just keep that kind of more precise foot plant and maybe alleviate some of those impact forces from ending up in those areas. But at the end of the day, the mechanics of it all are gonna be the real driver. You want your foot to come underneath a bent knee, 'cause you're using your legs as kinda like a three-foot spring essentially. So if you can get that foot plant under bent knee, it's gonna absorb it in the way your body intends versus absorbing it in a way that could maybe send those impact forces into the wrong areas.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  That's really interesting. You know, I was watching a video with this guy who is in his 70s-
26. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... who runs an under three-hour marathon.
28. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  And, uh, he said that five years ago he hired a coach.
30. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
15:00 – 30:00
Mm-hmm. …
1. ZBZach Bitter
  week I might do a total of like 24 to 27 minutes with a volume within that VO2 max context.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
3. ZBZach Bitter
  So it's, it's, uh, really interesting 'cause like, you know, I could go out on any one day and do like maybe 10 of those, but if I do that and then it takes me like a week and a half to recover from that session, it's not nearly as probably effective as if I spread that out a little bit and say I did like five by three and then five by three three days after that.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  You give your body a chance to recover-
5. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and build versus-
7. ZBZach Bitter
  Yep.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  ... just destroying it all in one and then feeling like shit for a couple weeks.
9. ZBZach Bitter
  Exactly.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  You know?
11. ZBZach Bitter
  I like to, I like to call it micro-stressing when I'm working with folks. In my own training I'm like, "We wanna micro-stress. We wanna stress you just enough to elicit a response and so you get stronger, and then we wanna do that over and over and over again."
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Are you aware... Uh, y- y- I'm sure you are, you know who Pavel Tsatsouline is?
13. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah, mm-hmm.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, so he's got this sort of concept when it comes to weight lifting with kettlebells in particular called greasing the groove.
15. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Whereas instead of doing all these r- c- sets to failure, you would just do, um, like half of what you're capable of-
17. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and then do it again in, in a more frequent pace. Like, uh, do it again rather, you know, do it again on Wednesday, do it again on Friday-
19. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and then give yourself a lot of time in between each individual activity too, particularly when you're training for strength. He, uh, actually recommends as much as 10 minutes of recovery in between sets which is-
21. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you know, kinda cr- I mean most people don't have the time for that.
23. ZBZach Bitter
  (laughs)
24. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, six sets is an hour in. I mean it seems like you're just laying around at the gym. People would, you know, if you were at the gym-
25. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah. (laughs)
26. JRJoe Rogan
  ... people would mock you. But that's his protocol.
27. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, I think it, you know, endurance is, I like to say it's a patient person's game. So I think if you can build that volume in a, in a micro-stressing or in a, like a sustainable way, that's what's gonna keep you, or get you strong and it's also gonna make it less likely to get injured, I think.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  How m- how much time do you need, like, w- w- like, if you got m- m- you know, up to that insane pace that you did when you ran the 100 miles, w- when, if you took like a, a week off or two weeks off, how much would you lose?
29. ZBZach Bitter
  Not much in that amount of time, uh, especially at that intensity. So the thing is is like the 6:48-mile pace you, we need to be kind of relative about it. So like for me f- when I'm out training, when I'm not, when I'm n- when I'm fully recovered, that's like a pretty reasonable pace, uh, from an intensity standpoint. So the interesting thing about ultra-marathoning is race pace is sometimes faster than even some of your easiest runs in training, so your training is kind of all what we would call like over-speed training.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
30:00 – 45:00
Yeah. Right. Yes. …
1. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah, no that makes sense and I think it's pretty cool 'cause like, yeah, with the weighted stuff like you run the risk of-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Right. Yes.
3. ZBZach Bitter
  ... potentially hurting something by adding that additional weight.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Like they were doing these, uh, rock challenges-... I, I forget the comp. I think it was Trained to Hunt or one of, one of these, one of these competitions. They were making people wear heavy packs. It might not have been Trained to Hunt. It was m- I think it was another comp. Well, anyway, they would make you wear like a 100-pound pack.
5. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  And so the idea was they were doing these races with 100-pound packs on.
7. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Which you can imagine-
9. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah. (laughs)
10. JRJoe Rogan
  ... is a fucking recipe for, you know, orthopedic surgeon visits.
11. ZBZach Bitter
  Right, yeah. (laughs)
12. JRJoe Rogan
  And so these people were getting kinda jacked up. And they, they s- I believe they stopped doing that-
13. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  ... as a competi- you know, as a running competition. But there's a few of those similar kinda competitions where they force you to do a bunch of physical activities and then bring your heart rate down, execute shots on targets, and then run to the next station and do a bunch of physical activities. And they were doing that with heavy, heavy weights on. It just really was a bad idea.
15. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that would, that would be maybe good for if you're gonna do like a mountaineering experience and you're gonna have to carry a bunch of ... Well, stuff like you're doing with hunting.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  But e- but even then, you really should just ruck.
17. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah, yeah.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Just put the p- heavy pack on. There's a, a company called Outdoorsman's that makes a really good one. It's called an Atlas pack. And it's essentially a pack frame, but the back of it is a, a universal post like what you would use for, uh, weights.
19. ZBZach Bitter
  Oh. Uh-huh.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, like a weightlifting post for, um, you know, uh, Olympic weights.
21. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, so those big round steel plates slide right onto it. So you can get a 45-pound plate on it and then clamp it down.
23. ZBZach Bitter
  Uh-huh.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  And so it's like really secure on you as opposed to like sometimes if you put too much weight in a pack, like maybe it'll sit all at the bottom. It's, this is like boom.
25. ZBZach Bitter
  Spread out, right.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Right in the center of your back and you cramp it down and, and then, you know, you're really carrying all that weight, you know, on your hips, a little bit on your shoulders, and it's all like really centered well.
27. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  And that's a good one for really d- training. But you don't fucking run with it.
29. ZBZach Bitter
  (laughs)
30. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, you just hike.
45:00 – 1:00:00
See, think about that…
1. ZBZach Bitter
  there's no water in sight. (laughs)
2. JRJoe Rogan
  See, think about that next time you see some asshole that spent $10 million on a house on the beach.
3. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah. (laughs)
4. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs) Like what makes you think that's gonna stay there, man?
5. ZBZach Bitter
  He's gonna, he's gonna pay, pay for that eventually.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, that is not gonna be here. (laughs) Something's gonna be different in the future.
7. ZBZach Bitter
  Ugh.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  It's always been that way. Like there's no permanent like place where the water is or the water isn't.
9. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah, it is funny how we think of that though, where it's like-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
11. ZBZach Bitter
  ... we see the map now and we're like, "Oh, okay, this is just how it is." And it's like-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
13. ZBZach Bitter
  ... maybe not. (laughs)
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, look at Pangaea.
15. ZBZach Bitter
  (laughs)
16. JRJoe Rogan
  You know? Uh, things change pretty goddamn radically.
17. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  What's up, Jamie?
19. NANarrator
  I don't know the accuracy of this, but I just found this.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Okay, Himalayan sea salt is a gourmet salt with a slightly misleading name. It doesn't come from the Himalayan mountains. Oh, Jesus.
21. NANarrator
  Hmm.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  And it doesn't come from a sea. These motherfuckers.
23. NANarrator
  (laughs)
24. JRJoe Rogan
  However, it's definitely a sea salt, so it's not a total misnomer. Himalayan salt actually refers to excl- exclusively to Pakistani rock salt... Hmm ... that used to be sea salt hundreds of millions of years ago. So why don't we call it Pakistan- if I was Pakistani, I'd be pissed.
25. ZBZach Bitter
  I'd be mad, yeah. (laughs)
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Like these motherfuckers are stealing our shine.
27. ZBZach Bitter
  (laughs)
28. JRJoe Rogan
  When a sea spreading over the region dried up, it was covered by geological shifts leaving massive deposits of salt scattered throughout the hills. Odd name aside, Himalayan salt has a lot going for it. It's tasty, it's pink, and some even claim it has healing prop- well those fucking healing properties assholes.
29. ZBZach Bitter
  (laughs)
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Those are the people that like crystals. Yeah, we got-
1:00:00 – 1:04:00
Who's Savory Sal- You…
1. ZBZach Bitter
  building block for muscle. But, um, there's a lot that goes into it with, with bone, bone health as well. So those guys have been really interesting to hear, hear about. And, you know, we've done a lot of stuff with, uh, ranchers and, uh, some of the, like, the Savory, Salatin folks come on the show and talk about kinda that practice versus kinda your standard agricultural production methods and things like that and-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Who's Savory Sal- You mean Joel Salatin?
3. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  What did, what is Savory? What do you mean?
5. ZBZach Bitter
  Oh, like Allan Savory?
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Okay.
7. ZBZach Bitter
  So we've had Allan Savory, Joel Salatin, Will Harris from White Oak Pastures on, um, Bobby Gill, he's part of the Savory Institute, come on and just kinda share with us, like, kinda where that stuff is at. 'Cause I think there's a lot of, uh, guesswork and unanswerable questions at this point with, with that, some of that stuff, 'cause we're projecting, like, you know, way down the road with some of this stuff.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Are you talking about the difference between grain-fed versus grass-fed meat?
9. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah, and more specifically with those guys too, just, like, kinda what it's doing to the soil health and the soil quality.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
11. ZBZach Bitter
  So one thing that I've learned that was interesting was that, uh ... I mean, we kinda start to, like, throw a lot of these different, like, quote-unquote regenerative type, uh, regenerative type practices into one, like, bucket or one category, when in reality there's a lot of different variants within them. So someone can say like, "Oh, regenerative agriculture is gonna save the planet," and then someone will go dig up a bunch of studies that show, like, well, no, it actually doesn't do anything.And then, like, so-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, I'm, I'm confused on that 'cause Chris Kresser's all in on this regenerative agricultural thing.
13. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  But has there e- is there real evidence that you can have a zero carbon gain?
15. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah, I mean, it's, uh-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  'Cause that's the, that's the, the p- the net positive.
17. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  The idea is that if you use regenerative agriculture, meaning the animals graze, they're, there's, uh, you're not talking about mono-crop environments, that these cows graze on open fields of grass-
19. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and then they shit all over the place, and then, you know, that, that shit becomes manure, and that this actually helps the plant life grow-
21. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and all this stuff sort of f- it all becomes a part of a cycle.
23. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  And that this regenerative practice-
25. ZBZach Bitter
  Mm-hmm.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  ... is actually, instead of raising the carbon footprint, it actually makes a carbon neutral footprint.
27. ZBZach Bitter
  Yeah, yeah, and I think where sometimes it gets confusing is if you go and you just look at studies on regenerative agriculture, you get a lot of mixed information. So what I was told, um-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
29. ZBZach Bitter
  ... and I'm still kinda going down this rabbit hole, and, uh, the way I like to look at all these type of things is I try to, like, look at one side of the story and then look to the other side and see where the counters are to that, and just kinda go back and forth until you hit a dead end, and then-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:19:19

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(claps) 'Sup, Zach? …

Mm-hmm. …

Yeah. Right. Yes. …

See, think about that…

Who's Savory Sal- You…

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