Joe Rogan Experience #1392 - Zach Bitter

Joe Rogan 0:03 (claps) 'Sup, Zach?

Zach Bitter 0:04 Hey. How's it going?

Joe Rogan 0:05 Good, man. How are you?

Zach Bitter 0:06 Good, good. Thanks for having me back on. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:08 My pleasure. Hey, um, thanks for turning me on to those shoes you wear too, those Altras.

Zach Bitter 0:11 Oh, nice.

Joe Rogan 0:12 I start- I started running with those.

Zach Bitter 0:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:13 I like 'em. I like 'em a lot. They're great.

Zach Bitter 0:15 Uh-huh. Which ones... You got the Lone Peak RSMs there?

Joe Rogan 0:17 I've got the... whatever the trail ones are.

Zach Bitter 0:19 Okay. Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 0:20 You know? I like the wide foot... What's it called? Foot box? Is that what you call 'em?

Zach Bitter 0:23 Foot-shaped toe box? Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:24 Yeah. Toe box? Is that what's it called? Toe box. Yeah. Those are great.

Zach Bitter 0:27 Cool, man. No, I'm glad you like 'em.

Joe Rogan 0:29 I... And I feel like this is what you wear, so it gets me excited-

Zach Bitter 0:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:32 ... when I'm running.

Zach Bitter 0:33 You know, it's really interesting-

Joe Rogan 0:34 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 0:34 ... like, when you dive into kind of the world of footwear and stuff. And I learned this recently and... The number one indicator of low injury risks, which is what runners are always looking for, they're trying to minimize risks, so comfort is the identifier for that. So if you find yourself going into like a specialty running shop, ask 'em to try on a variety of different pairs, a variety of different models, and find the one that's most comfortable for you, and that's probably gonna lower your risk to the lowest you can- you can get from your footwear anyway.

Joe Rogan 1:01 What if you like the really smooshy ones? Aren't those supposed to be not so good for you?

Zach Bitter 1:05 Yeah. No, that's a good question. I think it's, uh, one of those things where it's kinda half true, half not, where you kinda have to look at what you're lo- what- what's the purpose of what you're doing. So the way I kinda describe it is if I'm trying to strengthen my lower legs, uh, you know, I want that low cushion, that firm platform, because that's gonna really activate the muscles in the lower part of the leg. But if I'm dealing with some lower leg issues or a little sore, I did a workout and my calves are kinda sore or my ankle's sore, then cushion can be great because it's gonna relieve that kind of initial impact on the lower part of your legs. And the- the caveat though is those impact forces have to go somewhere, so they're kinda gonna move further up the kinetic chain. So what I usually tell people, if you're dealing with lower leg pain or injury, then you might wanna consider something a little more cushioned. And if you want... If you're dealing with something like in your knees or your hips, then getting rid of some of that cushion is gonna just keep that kind of more precise foot plant and maybe alleviate some of those impact forces from ending up in those areas. But at the end of the day, the mechanics of it all are gonna be the real driver. You want your foot to come underneath a bent knee, 'cause you're using your legs as kinda like a three-foot spring essentially. So if you can get that foot plant under bent knee, it's gonna absorb it in the way your body intends versus absorbing it in a way that could maybe send those impact forces into the wrong areas.

Joe Rogan 2:20 That's really interesting. You know, I was watching a video with this guy who is in his 70s-

Zach Bitter 2:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:25 ... who runs an under three-hour marathon.

Zach Bitter 2:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:27 And, uh, he said that five years ago he hired a coach.

Zach Bitter 2:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:31 Which is kinda crazy, like a 65-year-old dude-

Zach Bitter 2:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:34 ... hiring a coach, but trimmed a bunch of time off of his marathon, I think more than five minutes off of his marathon. I think it was quite a bit more than five minutes. And, uh, you know, he was running for a long time before that.

Zach Bitter 2:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:47 But yet a coach sorta shortened his, his, his time in f- in finishing a 26-mile race at 70 years old.

Zach Bitter 2:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:55 Which is-

Zach Bitter 2:55 It's never too late. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:56 Yeah. The bent knee is really important, 'cause a lot of folks who don't pay attention to the history of footwear don't understand that this fat cushioned heel that everybody sort of thinks of when you think of a running shoe, and you... when you watch a lot of people run that don't know any better, they run h- and they land on their heel-

Zach Bitter 3:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:16 ... which is sort of something that was created... Was it by Nike? Is that what it was that it created that fat-bottomed heel thing?

Zach Bitter 3:22 Yeah. They, they... I think they were the first one to do the offset-

Joe Rogan 3:25 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 3:25 ... where it was traditionally, I think, was like 12 millimeters where your heel would be that much higher than your forefoot. Um, but I think even with... when we get into kinda like, say, heel striking versus forefoot or mid-foot striking, uh, heel striking is another thing where it's not inherently bad. Uh, it all comes down to what I was saying before, where if you can heel strike, but your foot is still underneath that bent knee, you're probably not gonna do anything too detrimental. So, like, there's-

Joe Rogan 3:47 But it's not optimal, right?

Zach Bitter 3:49 Uh, it probably depends on the specific runner and their-

Joe Rogan 3:51 Oh, really?

Zach Bitter 3:52 ... their particular gait. Yeah. There's-

Joe Rogan 3:53 So you could have, like, extra long legs or something and maybe heel strike would work? Or extra short legs? Or what would it be?

Zach Bitter 3:59 Yeah. I, I don't know for sure if there's like a, a height thing that would do it. I think it would maybe just come with, like, the mechanics of the way the person learned to run in the first place and- and just maybe some nuances with the way their body is- is kinda more or less designed. Uh, but I mean, there's- there's heel striking folks that are very... uh, are not injury prone or have never gotten injuries or hardly ever get injuries. Uh, but usually, I think if you're doing that, that's probably because you're under that bent knee and you're not-

Joe Rogan 4:24 Hmm.

Zach Bitter 4:24 ... kinda having that point where your foot is out in front of your knee, and then you kinda have that straight leg, but at a angle where it's gonna be, you know, not- not ideal for kind of absorbing those impacts.

Joe Rogan 4:34 Yeah. That's the- the real bad one, right, is when people are pigeon-toed, when their knees kinda bend in, which, uh, I do see quite a bit.

Zach Bitter 4:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:41 That's- that's gotta be terrible for your knees, right?

Zach Bitter 4:44 Yeah. I mean, I, I couldn't say for sure, but, uh, I think, I think there's a lot of nuance and it's- it ends up being kind of like an individual situation with a lot of these cases, so i- it's hard to know for sure. Um, there's probably people who can talk to mechanics better than me and (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 5:01 Right. You just run. What was the- what was the... Explain the record you broke. You ran 24, uh, in less... Well, it was 100 miles and it's a 24-hour time period, but you did it in 11 hours and 40 what minutes?

Zach Bitter 5:14 Yeah. So, um, it was... Yeah. The... Let me... I'll explain a little bit better.

Joe Rogan 5:18 Okay.

Zach Bitter 5:18 So it was, uh, the event itself was called Six Days in the Dome, and really what it was was you could do anything from a 24-hour event to a 48-hour event to a six-day event and just see how far you could run within that time frame.

Joe Rogan 5:29 Six days?

Zach Bitter 5:30 Yeah. I know there's some crazy people out there. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:33 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 5:33 So just wait 'til David Goggins finds that event and then... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:37 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 5:37 But yeah, so I've been, uh... It's interesting because there's not a lot of, uh, timed events that are necessarily structured for a 100 mile or for, like, 12 hours. So a lot of times you find yourself jumping into some of these other events that are longer in duration and just kinda using them as a way to try to run a fast 100 miler or- or a fast 12-hour. So, uh, the race director for- for that particular event had reached out to me 'cause he- he- he's known me for a while and knew that I was targeting fast 100-mile times, and just said, "Hey, I've got this cool event set up at the Olympic Training Facility in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, at the Petit Center, and I think it's gonna be pretty, uh, conducive for fast- for fast times."And, uh, and asked if I wanted to do it. So, uh, I actually didn't have an ideal timeline to, w- that I would have normally wanted to work with in terms of getting ready for it. But the training went really well and, uh, I went there targeting the 100-mile world record which was 11 hours 28 minutes and 3 seconds prior to that, and ended up running 11 hours 19 minutes and 13 seconds for 100 miles.

Joe Rogan 6:39 (exhales)

Zach Bitter 6:39 And then, since we have, like, this 100-mile distance and also this 12-hour timed event kind of structure, you can find yourself, if you're under 12 hours, kind of double-dipping and getting two events for the price of one, I guess you could say. So I kept running after I hit 100 miles and ended up going 104.88 miles total in the 12-hour timeframe.

Joe Rogan 6:56 So that was another record? (laughs)

Zach Bitter 6:57 Yeah. Mm-hmm. So it's two world records, uh, 100 miles and 12 hours.

Joe Rogan 7:01 Dude, six minutes and 48 seconds-

Zach Bitter 7:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:05 ... for a pace for 100 miles is fucking bonkers. That is so fast. That's so crazy. That's such a fast pace, man.

Zach Bitter 7:15 (laughs) Yeah. You know, it's funny, like, when you look at it, 'cause I think sometimes people look at, like, 100 miles in 11 hours and 19 minutes and there's not a lot of context in their mind, unless they're kind of familiar with ultra-marathon running.

Joe Rogan 7:27 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 7:28 But when you start to break it down into, like, the subcategories where it's like, well, that's like four, like, sub-three-hour marathons in a row, or I can't remember how many, or what the 5K time is. There's like, it's like 31 5Ks at some, some times. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:41 That's four sub-three-hour marathons in a row?

Zach Bitter 7:44 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:45 Wow. (laughs) That's so crazy.

Zach Bitter 7:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:47 That's so fast. And are you still eating mostly meat?

Zach Bitter 7:51 Uh, so, you know, th- this gets brought up quite a bit, I think, because, I mean, I eat a ton of animal products, for sure. Uh, but, uh, you know, I wouldn't classify myself as a quote unquote "carnivore" or quite in that c-

Joe Rogan 8:02 Well, this is 'cause the carnivore diet people wanna claim you.

Zach Bitter 8:05 Right. Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:05 And w- we discussed this kind of the last time you were here-

Zach Bitter 8:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:08 ... where you, you take in a lot of glucose and you, you ramp up your carbohydrates considerably before a race.

Zach Bitter 8:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:14 But, like, what is, what is your, your, what is a daily diet? Let's say in training, like, you're preparing for something like this, what's a daily diet for you like?

Zach Bitter 8:21 Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, let's jump into that. I think it, there is some nuance within that, even, because when you think of my lifestyle, the way I, like, describe it is if you took a calendar year and you grabbed a single day out of there, and you grabbed a day where I was at, like, a peak-training day versus a recovery day-

Joe Rogan 8:35 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 8:35 ... those are, like, so drastically different in terms-

Joe Rogan 8:37 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 8:37 ... of my energy, ene- my, my energy demands. Uh, so, like, things tend to fluctuate quite a bit and change quite a bit, and I think that's oftentimes what confuses people 'cause they wanna... They look at what I'm doing, say, on race day, or they look at what I'm doing on one of my big workout days, or my rest day, and think that's what I'm doing across the board. So, you know, when you get the folks saying, "Oh, well, Zach follows a carnivore diet," they're probably looking at, like, a post-race recovery day where then I might be eating almost all just animal products, a lot of eggs, a lot of salmon, uh, you know, red meat, uh, that sort of stuff. Um, but if you pick a day out where I'm doing, like, a big training day, doing, like, a 30-mile run or something like that, uh, that's where I'm gonna kind of bring back some of the carbohydrates to try to supplement that activity. And the best way to maybe describe it is, uh, you know, there's, like, this, this, uh, like, kind of train low/race high or this carb periodization concept that's getting more momentum behind it, and, and more studies and science behind it too. There's some interesting, uh, folks that are looking into this in more detail. And if folks are really interested in doing a deep dive in it, there's a guy named, uh, Dr. Mark Bubs. He wrote a book called Peak, and he kind of dives into, kind of, like, some of the nutrition science, where it's been and kind of where it's, it's kinda heading, and, and they highlight some of that. And one of the big things they s- they're starting to recognize that even with elite athletes, when you're periodizing your training like I do, uh, you know, your nutrition should be being periodized as well. Uh, you know, the science is pretty clear that, like, if you're doing a workout and you take in, uh, glucose or fructose, uh, I think most science says a two-to-one ratio is ideal for maximizing the amount you can take in. Then, I mean, you're going to give yourself an advantage. That's like rocket fuel. So then it becomes a question of, like, do you need that 100% of the time, or do you even wanna do it 100% of the time? 'Cause when we look at elite a-

Joe Rogan 10:24 Can I pause you right here?

Zach Bitter 10:25 Yeah. Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 10:25 When you, when you say, "Glucose two to one," like, what do you mean by that? And what, and, and-

Zach Bitter 10:28 Like, glucose to fructose.

Joe Rogan 10:29 Okay.

Zach Bitter 10:30 Because what they found out is when they started doing a lot of, like, the exercise science in nutrition was that the real limiter is your gut. So, like-

Joe Rogan 10:39 Hmm.

Zach Bitter 10:39 ... o- on paper-

Joe Rogan 10:40 So, absorption?

Zach Bitter 10:41 Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. There's a finite amount you can absorb, and you increase the amount you can u- you can absorb on average if you have that two-to-one ratio versus all of one or the other.

Joe Rogan 10:51 So two glucose to one sucrose?

Zach Bitter 10:53 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:54 Hmm. Interesting. And now, what, what are the different sources for glucose versus sucrose? Like, sucrose is simple sugar that you would get... Is that more like a refined sugar?

Zach Bitter 11:03 Yeah. Yeah. You, I think, like, uh, the, the way, like, and most, most, like, sports supplements and things like that are gonna be designed to kind of meet those, those specific... Because they're looking at the literature and they're seeing, like, "Okay, this is how you optimize it."

Joe Rogan 11:16 So, like, a POWERADE or a GATORADE or something like that-

Zach Bitter 11:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:18 ... would be a two to one?

Zach Bitter 11:19 Yeah. I'd have to look to see exactly if they have that. But, uh, my guess would be they would be if they're looking at, at the research and where that's kind of at. Um, but yeah. So, like, really when it... The question that I think needs to be asked with a lot of this stuff is, like, if I wanna make a workout feel as easy as possible, if I'm trying, if I can get in, like, say, 60 grams of carbohydrate per hour, it's probably gonna do that. Like, my pace, my perceived effort at that pace is probably gonna feel easier. But then you have to ask the question, like, how often do you need it to feel that easy? So for me, the answer to that is, like, well, if I'm doing something really strenuous or something that's in a little bit of a gray area where it's just fast enough to dip into the glycogen stores, but just slow enough that I can do it for quite a while, like, maybe even a couple hours, then you're kind of in this area where, uh, that could be an advantage for me from a performance standpoint. But if I'm going out for an easy run of, like, 60 to 90 minutes, and it's gonna be, like, a-... two to three out of 10 perceived effort anyway, like, there's no real need for me to be hitting glucose during that or, you know, a sports drink during that to make that feel even easier yet. 'Cause my goal isn't necessarily to, you know, make an easy run feel even easier, I guess is the way to maybe describe it.

Joe Rogan 12:33 Hilarious that you'd call a 90-minute run easy.

Zach Bitter 12:35 (laughs) But-

Joe Rogan 12:36 Oh, nothing. Just a stroll, just a few dozen miles.

Zach Bitter 12:38 Well, and I think that, that also brings up a really good point too where, like, a lot of this stuff when we're looking at carbohydrate usage and performances, we're looking at elite athletes. We're looking at folks that are training for like, you know, the Olympics. You know, sometimes they're even Olympic medalists. And that's just not a very good comparison, I think, to the average person who's out there running-

Joe Rogan 12:58 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 12:58 ... 'cause, you know, their, their ang- their purposes are different, you know, their objectives are different, their lives are very different. Like one is doing basically everything around a specic- specific date and distance and trying to run as fast as they can on that date, and other person may be trying to run as fast as they can, but there's so many other factors in life like, uh, their work, their relationships, their, um, you know, uh, the level of training they're actually able to have with the time they have, and then also, like, you know, managing their own health and nutrition. Because like, you know, elite athletes don't have a very rosy picture in terms of long-term health either. So for someone who's like, you know, maybe 10, 20 pounds overweight and is trying to run to get into shape or train to get into shape or something like that, th- they're probably thinking just as much about health as they are about performance, so for them to be, you know, shuttling in 60 grams of carbohydrate every hour during training and racing is, is probably not the direction that they'd wanna go.

Joe Rogan 13:49 Now when you get ready to do something like this 100-mile run, um, how many miles do you run in a typical day and do you ramp that up or do you just give yourself a base and know that you can push through? Like how, how do you handle that?

Zach Bitter 14:02 Yeah, so I'll, I'll build up my training. The way I kinda describe it is like I'm always focusing on specificity kinda being king. So depending on the race, distance, and the intensity is kinda how I'm gonna structure my workouts. So the rule of thumb that I use is the closer I get to the workout, the more specific the workouts I do are gonna be towards that race, distance, and intensity. Uh, so for me what that oftentimes means since I'm training for like 100-mile distance races is early in a training block I might be doing some, like, shorter interval work like VO2 max. Like an example of that would maybe be like a three-minute, uh, kind of almost all-out effort followed by like a three-minute recovery jog and then another three-minute interval like that, some of those real short interval sessions.

Joe Rogan 14:41 And how many s- of those would you do in a row? How many sprints versus recovery?

Zach Bitter 14:45 Yeah, uh, it, it'll depend. I'll start, like, pretty easy on the first one I, the fir- when I first started I might just do three by three on that. And, but my goal really is to, every week is to kind of build volume within that. So that first week it might be just three of 'em, but by like say the eighth week I might do a total of like 24 to 27 minutes with a volume within that VO2 max context.

Joe Rogan 15:05 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 15:06 So it's, it's, uh, really interesting 'cause like, you know, I could go out on any one day and do like maybe 10 of those, but if I do that and then it takes me like a week and a half to recover from that session, it's not nearly as probably effective as if I spread that out a little bit and say I did like five by three and then five by three three days after that.

Joe Rogan 15:22 You give your body a chance to recover-

Zach Bitter 15:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:24 ... and build versus-

Zach Bitter 15:25 Yep.

Joe Rogan 15:25 ... just destroying it all in one and then feeling like shit for a couple weeks.

Zach Bitter 15:29 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 15:29 You know?

Zach Bitter 15:29 I like to, I like to call it micro-stressing when I'm working with folks. In my own training I'm like, "We wanna micro-stress. We wanna stress you just enough to elicit a response and so you get stronger, and then we wanna do that over and over and over again."

Joe Rogan 15:41 Are you aware... Uh, y- y- I'm sure you are, you know who Pavel Tsatsouline is?

Zach Bitter 15:45 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:45 Yeah, so he's got this sort of concept when it comes to weight lifting with kettlebells in particular called greasing the groove.

Zach Bitter 15:51 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:51 Whereas instead of doing all these r- c- sets to failure, you would just do, um, like half of what you're capable of-

Zach Bitter 16:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:00 ... and then do it again in, in a more frequent pace. Like, uh, do it again rather, you know, do it again on Wednesday, do it again on Friday-

Zach Bitter 16:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:07 ... and then give yourself a lot of time in between each individual activity too, particularly when you're training for strength. He, uh, actually recommends as much as 10 minutes of recovery in between sets which is-

Zach Bitter 16:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:19 ... you know, kinda cr- I mean most people don't have the time for that.

Zach Bitter 16:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:21 You know, six sets is an hour in. I mean it seems like you're just laying around at the gym. People would, you know, if you were at the gym-

Zach Bitter 16:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:27 ... people would mock you. But that's his protocol.

Zach Bitter 16:29 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, I think it, you know, endurance is, I like to say it's a patient person's game. So I think if you can build that volume in a, in a micro-stressing or in a, like a sustainable way, that's what's gonna keep you, or get you strong and it's also gonna make it less likely to get injured, I think.

Joe Rogan 16:45 How m- how much time do you need, like, w- w- like, if you got m- m- you know, up to that insane pace that you did when you ran the 100 miles, w- when, if you took like a, a week off or two weeks off, how much would you lose?

Zach Bitter 16:59 Not much in that amount of time, uh, especially at that intensity. So the thing is is like the 6:48-mile pace you, we need to be kind of relative about it. So like for me f- when I'm out training, when I'm not, when I'm n- when I'm fully recovered, that's like a pretty reasonable pace, uh, from an intensity standpoint. So the interesting thing about ultra-marathoning is race pace is sometimes faster than even some of your easiest runs in training, so your training is kind of all what we would call like over-speed training.

Joe Rogan 17:29 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 17:30 Whereas in most endurance events from like the 1500 up to like the marathon, the majority of your work's gonna be sub race pace and then you're gonna have like, depending on the program, you know, maybe 20, 30% of that be like over-speed training or-

Joe Rogan 17:43 Why is that?

Zach Bitter 17:44 Uh, well just because the relative duration of the event is so long like, you know, I can't run fast, uh, or if I run too fast then it's just gonna end badly for me.

Joe Rogan 17:54 Right, but why is that with marathons?

Zach Bitter 17:55 Oh, um, well because it's, it becomes, it's similar to strength training where like if, uh, the limiter is like the amount of like stress you put on your body, so if I was gonna train to peak in say a marathon, th- my, my max potential pace for that wouldn't be sustainable to do every run, so I'd be running, I'd be running too hard, too fast, too often-

Joe Rogan 18:15 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 18:15 ... and then we'd get into that s- that kinda situation that we were talking about before where you're starting to macro-stress versus micro-stress.

Joe Rogan 18:21 So if you run a marathon, what is your standard marathon pace?

Zach Bitter 18:25 Uh, so I, (sighs) I'm a little goofy where I competed in high school and college, and then I did some marathons, but not really in a structured manner. And then I got into ultra-marathon running, so I haven't really done what I would consider a real, legitimate marathon training program.

Joe Rogan 18:38 So you're basically saying marathons are for pussies, right?

Zach Bitter 18:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:40 Is that what you're saying? Just say it.

Zach Bitter 18:42 Uh, uh, I actually think marathon-

Joe Rogan 18:44 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 18:45 (laughs) Actually, I actually think marathons are maybe the hardest event of them all.

Joe Rogan 18:49 Really?

Zach Bitter 18:49 And I'll explain why, because-

Joe Rogan 18:50 You're going fast.

Zach Bitter 18:51 Well yeah, it's just short enough where you have to be pushing, like, a fairly intense pace, but it's just long enough where if you make a mistake, you're gonna pay for that for quite some time. So you're on such a razor's edge and you're also just one tiny mistake away from things going really badly.

Joe Rogan 19:05 And what you're saying about mistake, you're talking about pacing, like how-

Zach Bitter 19:07 Yeah.

Narrator 19:07 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 19:07 ... if you go out too hard.

Joe Rogan 19:09 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 19:09 You, I see your watch. What is, what kind of watch you wearing? It's a, a Coros APEX.

Joe Rogan 19:14 Well, I've never heard of that one before.

Zach Bitter 19:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:16 Is that a GPS watch, one of those, now?

Zach Bitter 19:18 Yeah, it's, it's a relative... They're a relatively new brand, like in, in running. I, I guess, like the two kinda big players historically have been Suunto and Garmin.

Joe Rogan 19:26 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 19:26 And, uh, yeah, Coros kinda came to market a few years ago. They wanted to try to make, like take that high-end technology, but make it-

Joe Rogan 19:34 There it is.

Zach Bitter 19:34 ... maybe a little more affordable and also make it user-friendly, 'cause now everyone's... They're, they, they care more about the post-workout or the post-run data that you're uploading to these platforms like Strava. So, like Coros kinda made it a big, uh, uh, point to make it real user-friendly on that end. So you like, I get done with the run and I load it up to the app and it's up on Strava, like within a few seconds sometimes. And, uh, then you go dissect all the data, like how much elevation gain and loss, your pace per mile, uh, all that.

Joe Rogan 20:02 And is this, uh, primarily a running watch?

Zach Bitter 20:05 Uh, I mean, you could use it for running or cycling or hiking or mountaineering or anything like that. It's got like all those kinda bells and whistles on it.

Joe Rogan 20:12 Oh, okay. So, so if you're... My, my question was, like so if you're running, how l- You, uh, you're checking your watch if you're doing a marathon, you're making sure that you're not going crazy 'cause it's-

Zach Bitter 20:22 Yep.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Is it otherwise you just have to kinda gauge it just based on the pack and based on how you feel?

Zach Bitter 20:27 Yeah, and I think that's actually a good, especially when you get into ultra-marathoning, I think the metric that people should dial in the most is their rate of perceived exertion-

Joe Rogan 20:35 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 20:36 ... 'cause that's something that's not gonna necessarily lie to you. Uh, like if you base your thing, your stuff off heart rate exclusively or a pace exclusively, you can find yourself like justifying something that's not necessarily where you need to be. And if something like that malfunctions and that was your like only compass, then you're in trouble. So I like, when I'm t- doing my training, and when I'm working with other folks, I like to use heart rate and I like to use pacing and stuff like that. But ultimately, I'm trying to get the person to really understand like how hard is this effort and then across the board, uh, from like very easy to very difficult. And then when we, comes time to race, we can kind of dial in, like with this is the intensity you're trying to look for so that they can kinda feel that out.

Joe Rogan 21:14 Do you use a metric? Like do you, do you say like, "How do you feel, 1 to 10?"

Zach Bitter 21:18 Yeah, pretty mu- I, I l- have a scale of like 1 to 10 that I'll use a lot of times.

Joe Rogan 21:21 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 21:22 And there's like a v- whole variety. Like most people are gonna be using some sort of like, probably like zone system of training where there's like, there's numbers that are associated with heart rate ranges or intensities, and there will be descriptors. And you know, there's some that are like one through twenty, there's some that are kinda one through five, and then one through ten, and-

Joe Rogan 21:39 Isn't that so, so weird too, right? Because it's so s- it's subjective.

Zach Bitter 21:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:42 I mean, the Whoop, Whoop Strap-

Zach Bitter 21:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:44 ... is one, something I wear and it uses something like that, like, "What, what's your perceived exertion?" I'm like, "Eh, v- eh, mm."

Zach Bitter 21:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:50 I just push it towards the far right, I don't know.

Zach Bitter 21:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:52 Like, what does that mean? Like it's, it's, uh, so hard to gauge-

Zach Bitter 21:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:56 ... your perceived exertion, especially when the workout's over. "Yeah, it was hard. I went ha- I went all out." Like, what does that mean? "I don't know what that means," you know?

Zach Bitter 22:03 Yeah. Yeah, it can be tricky, and it is very subjective. But I think it's one of those things where it falls into the same category that a lot of endurance events are, where you just gotta be patient and really work on kind of understanding that.

Joe Rogan 22:14 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 22:15 And you, you learn from experience too.

Joe Rogan 22:17 Right.

Zach Bitter 22:17 Like you, you find out like, "Oh, I went and did this workout and I thought that was the right pace and intensity, but it turned out to be a little too fast."

Joe Rogan 22:24 Do you t- keep a training log?

Zach Bitter 22:25 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:26 And do you like write it on Excel or something like that? Or you-

Zach Bitter 22:29 I basically just load all my stuff o- up to Strava and then, uh-

Joe Rogan 22:32 Oh, okay.

Zach Bitter 22:32 Yeah, so that's kind of like the go-to for most runners these days, is, uh-

Joe Rogan 22:35 But do you... I'm, I'm sorry, but do you, do you keep like a diary? Like, "Today felt like this, and this was an issue, and I felt like I didn't have enough f- fluids," or do you do anything like that?

Zach Bitter 22:45 Not so much anymore. I did it a lot when I was in college, and I did it a lot when I first started, when I was really trying to kinda learn my body and kinda learn what things mean and, and, and how I respond to them. But now I've been kinda doing it long enough where I have enough of a, of a, like an understanding of kinda how, like when things go wrong, like why they did or if something went really well, like why it did that I don't feel like I need to take as detailed notes. But-

Joe Rogan 23:10 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 23:10 ... I think it's v- really valuable for someone who's sp- especially while they're trying to learn rate of perceived exertion and kinda really dial those things in. It's, uh, probably worth a lot o- worth a lot, worth their time to write that stuff down so that they can look back at it and they have that resource available to them as they're kinda reflecting on things.

Joe Rogan 23:26 Now, say if you're getting ready to do something like this crazy 100-mile run, trying to break a world record, what, what do you w- how are you, how much time are you giving yourself to really truly prepare for that? Is it based on what, how you're at right now, like what your baseline is, like what kind of preparation you've done before you knew that this race was available to you? Like how do you do that?

Zach Bitter 23:45 Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, and this is, this will, we can, we can kinda hop back to where I was talking about before, 'cause like when I was talking about the VO2 max workout stuff-

Joe Rogan 23:52 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 23:52 ... that's kinda early in my training plan because that intensity is very unspecific to 100-mile pace. Uh, you know, that's, you know, those VO2 max workouts are much closer to something shorter like a 5K.

Joe Rogan 24:03 So what are you trying to do with those VO2 max workouts? You're just trying to elevate your, your base?

Zach Bitter 24:09 Yeah, like just in, in, uh, like here, the, like there's the different systems of training-

Joe Rogan 24:13 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 24:13 ... and that's kind of a higher intensity system. So it's not very relevant to the race pace that I'm doing specifically, but it's not irrelevant to my overall like, uh, aerobic, uh, efficiency. So like by doing some of those faster stuff things, you can work on things like your form, uh, just because when you're running that fast, like things tend to be a little more dialed in. Uh, and it just, it expand, it, it basically, what you do is you give yourself kind of a bigger range of what your potential's gonna be when you start focusing more in on like the aerobic side of things that we're gonna see like as I would move further down in the training plan. So-... once I kind of do that section of training, uh, to answer your question though, like, ideally, I'll have maybe about ... Since I'm coming into most programs not completely out of shape, like four months is kinda the sweet spot for me. If I was coming, like, off the couch, so to speak, six months would be a little more appropriate.

Joe Rogan 25:05 Are you ever off the couch?

Zach Bitter 25:06 Uh, only if I'm injured and I've only been injured in any significant way since ultra- since started ultra running once for about five weeks, so.

Joe Rogan 25:13 What happened?

Zach Bitter 25:14 Uh, I had a stress fracture on my right Sacro Ilia. Uh-

Joe Rogan 25:17 What is that?

Zach Bitter 25:17 It's ki- it's basically like on your tailbone.

Joe Rogan 25:19 Oh, ouch.

Zach Bitter 25:20 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:20 What the fuck happened?

Zach Bitter 25:22 So what I think, I don't know, it's hard to know for sure, but what was ... The way it was described to me when I was going in and getting that stuff checked out was what likely happened was I had such a history in kinda flat running, that I was actually preparing for a race that had a lot more climbing and descending, so I started changing my training to more climbing and descending. And when I did that, like, uh, one thing that sometimes happens when you're running a lot of flat hard surfaces is your, like, ankles and your hips can get pretty tight from that real, like, kinda uniform, like, uh, mechanic that you're doing. So, like, my range of motion was semi-limited, so when I was doing some of that hard downhill and uphill running, I just probably wasn't very efficient with my form and it ended up that, kinda what we were talking before, those impact forces ended up in the wrong spot and then the stress fracture occurred.

Joe Rogan 26:05 That is crazy. You broke your ass.

Zach Bitter 26:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:08 You literally broke your ass.

Zach Bitter 26:09 Yeah, uh-

Joe Rogan 26:09 Like people always talk about, "Oh, he was busting his ass."

Zach Bitter 26:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:12 Like, you actually did. So where is it, Jamie? Right there? Oh, Jesus Christ. It's so, it's ... It literally is your ass bone.

Zach Bitter 26:19 You know, and the, the really goofy thing about it too was, uh-

Joe Rogan 26:21 Wow.

Zach Bitter 26:22 ... when I first had the pain surface for that, it was kind of in, like, the, like, lower back glute area is where it surfaced, so I thought I had, like, a sciatic issue. Like I-

Joe Rogan 26:31 Oh, makes sense.

Zach Bitter 26:33 So I went into the doctor and they were like, "Okay, let's try some, like, active release therapy and let's see if we can get this thing to loosen up."

Joe Rogan 26:39 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 26:39 And we just were working on it, working on it and, like it would like clear up where I wouldn't notice it if I was walking around, but then anytime I'd go for a run or try to go for a run, I'd get that sharp pain right away.

Joe Rogan 26:48 Mm.

Zach Bitter 26:49 And, uh, so after about, I think it was maybe four weeks or so, we just, we, we had been doing a ton of active release, a ton of mobility work and then, uh, uh, like it wasn't going away so he's like, "Well, let's just get an MRI and see what's going on in there." And they did the MRI, got the results back and he said, "There's nothing there, so you start running again." So I started running again. I ran like, I think it was two or three days maybe. Very short, like two miles and then three miles then maybe five or something like that, and then I got a call back from the doctor and he's like, "Oh, turns out we took a second look at the MRI, there is a stress fracture there." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:20 Oh, Jesus.

Zach Bitter 27:20 And then w- and I told him, like, "Well I've just ran the first three pain-free days I ever, I have since this, this issue." And-

Joe Rogan 27:26 Oh, it was a mind fuck.

Zach Bitter 27:28 Yeah, well and I think what, what he said maybe was going on there was it was, I mean it was a very fine stress fracture. It wasn't ... I mean sometimes when people have a fracture on their Sacro Ilia, it's like a big enough fracture where like it can be out for like a year and-

Joe Rogan 27:41 Whoa.

Zach Bitter 27:41 Yeah, yeah, so it can be a really bad injury. Um, but he said maybe the mobility and the strength work I was doing while I had that to try to rehab kind of strengthened the areas around it enough that when I just was running flat, really slow, really easy, that protected that area enough-

Joe Rogan 27:56 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 27:56 ... where I didn't feel the pain anymore.

Joe Rogan 27:57 Oh, okay.

Zach Bitter 27:58 So, after that I think I took another like two weeks off completely just to make sure before I started building back up and then I started kind of building back up again.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Do you ever run on one of those Air Runner things? You know, those self-propelling treadmills?

Zach Bitter 28:10 I've been on one once before but not in any, like, significant way, but they look pretty sweet.

Joe Rogan 28:14 Dude, I love those damn things. Which one do we have? What is it, uh ... Who makes it? It's Airdyne, right? Airdyne makes it? The Air Runner? Is that what it's called? Jamie will find out.

Zach Bitter 28:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:26 But anyway man, it's some percentage, 13 or make up the number, 13% harder than actual- Assault Air f- Air Runner, yeah. Assault Air Runner. Yeah. Uh, it's amazing.

Zach Bitter 28:36 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 28:36 It's hard as fuck. I gave one to Bert, Bert Kreischer, he's like, "This is too hard!"

Zach Bitter 28:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:41 'Cause he's, he likes using a treadmill- Sure. ... and pretending he's really running when he's just picking his legs up and down, you know. (laughs)

Zach Bitter 28:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:46 Uh, but that makes you actually push and so your calves get blown the fuck up man, it's-

Zach Bitter 28:52 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 28:52 It's hard.

Zach Bitter 28:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:54 It's, it's really good. And it's, what does it say? Uh, what does it s- what percentage does it say it's harder than actual running? Like if you were just running at the same pace? Um-

Zach Bitter 29:04 Some people are like, "Well running's hard enough, why are we making it harder?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:06 Well the idea is that you go and run and it makes running easier.

Zach Bitter 29:09 Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:10 Sort of like running with weights on.

Zach Bitter 29:11 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 29:11 But it doesn't give you an additional stress.

Zach Bitter 29:14 Yeah. That's a good point.

Joe Rogan 29:15 It's not, it's not pounding on your body.

Zach Bitter 29:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:17 You know, it's not like you're, you're doing anything that's gonna injure you but it's, it's cau- you, you know you have to propel that thing, you know it's, if, for folks who don't know what we're talking about, it's basically a very subtle U, right?

Zach Bitter 29:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:30 Like the, the, the way the thing is structured and it's got tread on it and as you run, you are the th- the thing that's making it move. So there's no machinery, it's not plugged in, it's not like, uh, it's electronic and you, you set the pace (imitates machine sound) and you just gotta keep up with it. It's not, it's, you're making it run.

Zach Bitter 29:48 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 29:48 So you're pushing it and as you push it, you, it requires extra energy and extra effort, and that extra effort when you actually go run on a regular road surface or a trail, it seems easier.

Zach Bitter 29:59 Mm-hmm. Yeah, no that makes sense and I think it's pretty cool 'cause like, yeah, with the weighted stuff like you run the risk of-

Joe Rogan 30:05 Yeah. Right. Yes.

Zach Bitter 30:05 ... potentially hurting something by adding that additional weight.

Joe Rogan 30:08 Like they were doing these, uh, rock challenges-... I, I forget the comp. I think it was Trained to Hunt or one of, one of these, one of these competitions. They were making people wear heavy packs. It might not have been Trained to Hunt. It was m- I think it was another comp. Well, anyway, they would make you wear like a 100-pound pack.

Zach Bitter 30:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:26 And so the idea was they were doing these races with 100-pound packs on.

Zach Bitter 30:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:31 Which you can imagine-

Zach Bitter 30:32 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:33 ... is a fucking recipe for, you know, orthopedic surgeon visits.

Zach Bitter 30:36 Right, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:37 And so these people were getting kinda jacked up. And they, they s- I believe they stopped doing that-

Zach Bitter 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:41 ... as a competi- you know, as a running competition. But there's a few of those similar kinda competitions where they force you to do a bunch of physical activities and then bring your heart rate down, execute shots on targets, and then run to the next station and do a bunch of physical activities. And they were doing that with heavy, heavy weights on. It just really was a bad idea.

Zach Bitter 31:00 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that would, that would be maybe good for if you're gonna do like a mountaineering experience and you're gonna have to carry a bunch of ... Well, stuff like you're doing with hunting.

Joe Rogan 31:09 But e- but even then, you really should just ruck.

Zach Bitter 31:12 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:12 Just put the p- heavy pack on. There's a, a company called Outdoorsman's that makes a really good one. It's called an Atlas pack. And it's essentially a pack frame, but the back of it is a, a universal post like what you would use for, uh, weights.

Zach Bitter 31:25 Oh. Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 31:25 You know, like a weightlifting post for, um, you know, uh, Olympic weights.

Zach Bitter 31:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:30 You know, so those big round steel plates slide right onto it. So you can get a 45-pound plate on it and then clamp it down.

Zach Bitter 31:37 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 31:37 And so it's like really secure on you as opposed to like sometimes if you put too much weight in a pack, like maybe it'll sit all at the bottom. It's, this is like boom.

Zach Bitter 31:46 Spread out, right.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Right in the center of your back and you cramp it down and, and then, you know, you're really carrying all that weight, you know, on your hips, a little bit on your shoulders, and it's all like really centered well.

Zach Bitter 31:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:56 And that's a good one for really d- training. But you don't fucking run with it.

Zach Bitter 32:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:00 You know, you just hike.

Zach Bitter 32:01 Hike, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:01 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 32:02 Get that strength and power.

Joe Rogan 32:03 It's hard enough ... Yeah. Hard enough just to walk with it. Does it say how m- what the extra percentage of it is?

Narrator 32:07 There's ... It's ... No, I couldn't find like an official testing-

Joe Rogan 32:09 Mm.

Narrator 32:10 ... of whatever. But, uh, one person that did a big deep dive into it said its, uh, main thing was to f- it fixes gait or it will improve running gait.

Joe Rogan 32:18 Mm.

Narrator 32:18 But that, that 30% is a number that they read as like a sales l- like thing.

Joe Rogan 32:23 30%? I didn't hear that one. I thought it was like 13.

Narrator 32:24 But I, I couldn't find. It was like a ... I'm trying to find like testing or some sort of science on it, but-

Joe Rogan 32:28 It doesn't seem like it's 30%. Man, pfft, I don't know.

Narrator 32:31 Yeah, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 32:31 What the fuck do I know? What am I, a mathmetician? (laughs)

Zach Bitter 32:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:34 But, uh, it's, it's just excellent for training. Do you do any training on machines or is all your training essentially done on the road?

Zach Bitter 32:41 The running is all pretty much done on the road, on the trails. I'll do, uh, like some mobility work and some strength work in the gym.

Joe Rogan 32:47 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 32:48 Uh, and that's where I'll, I'll kinda go inside, I guess, for it. Um, but yeah, I, I, you know, I've, I've used treadmills and stuff in the past and I do use them from time to time, but, uh, usually if I have the option to go outside, I'll do that. And I mean, I live in Phoenix, so it's, uh, you know, we're ... it's sunny most days.

Joe Rogan 33:04 Cold day is 70, right?

Zach Bitter 33:05 Yeah. (laughs) Exactly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:06 I'm there this weekend actually.

Zach Bitter 33:07 Oh yeah, that's right.

Joe Rogan 33:08 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 33:08 You're, uh, at the ... Is it, uh, Comerica?

Joe Rogan 33:10 Co- Comerica Theater.

Zach Bitter 33:11 Nice.

Joe Rogan 33:11 Yeah. Friday and Saturday, I'm psyched.

Zach Bitter 33:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:13 I love Phoenix.

Zach Bitter 33:14 And yeah, it's the time of year to be there for sure.

Joe Rogan 33:15 Yeah, man. Right?

Zach Bitter 33:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:16 What's the, what's the temperature there right now?

Zach Bitter 33:18 Probably maybe 65 or so.

Joe Rogan 33:20 Ah.

Zach Bitter 33:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:21 Ah. I've been there before in the summer-

Zach Bitter 33:23 Woo.

Joe Rogan 33:23 ... in July when I used to do-

Zach Bitter 33:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:24 ... Tempe Improv and it was like fucking 120.

Zach Bitter 33:27 Uh-huh. Well, and that's, that's the funny thing too 'cause when I was training for that 100-mile 12-hour world record, it was through the summer 'cause the race was in Aug- August.

Joe Rogan 33:34 Oof.

Zach Bitter 33:34 So my peak training was like 110 degrees some days. And the funny thing too is the Pettit Center where I did the race, it was actually built for speed skating and some hockey rinks. So they keep it at like 60 degrees.

Joe Rogan 33:45 Ooh, that's nice.

Zach Bitter 33:46 And I re- I remember (laughs) one day when I was running, it was like one of the hottest days of the summer. I remember thinking like, "I'm gonna race literally at half this temperature." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:53 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 33:55 So it's really funny when you, when you see, when you see that. And I think, uh, I'm, I'm no expert at it by any means, but I think there's some pretty cool like studies and stuff that ... of the effects that happen when you are training in some of those extreme heats, like what happens. It ... For the way it was described to me is it kinda stimulates training at altitude to a degree.

Joe Rogan 34:12 Mm.

Zach Bitter 34:12 Uh, so who knows? Maybe some of that helps.

Joe Rogan 34:14 That makes sense. Well, similar to hot yoga, right?

Zach Bitter 34:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:17 That's ... They're doing some studies at Harvard, I believe. I think it's Harvard. Someone was explaining the whole deal to me. This is not something that I read. But essentially what they're doing is they're trying to find out whether or not hot yoga, these 90-minute hot yoga sessions, replicate some of the known benefits of sauna.

Zach Bitter 34:33 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 34:34 Because, you know, obviously the temperature is not as hot. They keep it ... The hot yoga place I go to, I think they keep it at 105 degrees.

Zach Bitter 34:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:42 Versus sauna, you know, gets much, much hotter than that. You're in like the 180s, which is what I like. And but the idea is that when your body is extremely, uh, stressed, when you're doing these poses and you're sweating like crazy, that your body core temperature rises basically to a similar level than if you're just sitting-

Zach Bitter 35:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:01 ... in a sauna. So you get a very similar response.

Zach Bitter 35:04 Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. Um, so I, I try to remember that when it's the summer in Phoenix so I don't get too miserable. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:11 Get burnt out by it. Yeah.

Zach Bitter 35:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:12 It's got ... You gotta be doing yourself good. Um, Kronk Gym, which is one of the most famous boxing gyms in history, Emanuel Steward, who was a ... just a wizard of boxing and he trained Tommy Hearns-

Zach Bitter 35:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:24 ... and you know, some of the, the like the all-time greats of that era. He would crank the temperature, and this is in Detroit. They would crank the temperature up really hot. So you would go into that gym and it would be that way, like for that specific reason, 'cause he believed that it increased endurance.

Zach Bitter 35:39 Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, it's, it's interesting stuff. But I'll still take January and February. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:45 For, for comfort. Now what do you do in terms of like how do you hydrate yourself and like what, what kind of durations are we talking about? Like say if you're ... if it's 110 degrees outside, 120, what, how ... What was the hottest you ran at?

Zach Bitter 35:58 I think 110 is what it got up to.

Joe Rogan 36:00 110.

Zach Bitter 36:00 And I, I try to get out relatively early so that it's not like 110 from start to finish. So like if I get out say at like 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning, you know, it might be in the 80s, high 80s, and be working its way up so that like I'm-... finishing, and it might be 110. Uh, for my key workouts, the way I structure my training usually when I'm kind of in peak is I'll do the, my biggest workout in the morning. And then I might go out and do, like, a second run that's, like, a little shorter, or quite a bit shorter in most cases, and really low-intensity. And, you know, then sometimes, if it's the afternoon in Phoenix, that's when I'd see, like, that 110. But I'm usually not out for more than, like, 45, 60 minutes for those. Uh, so hydrating is, is interesting because, you know, I grew up in the Midwest, so I was very familiar with running in hot, humid stuff in the summer. And, uh, you know, the dry desert heat though, it seems like you get thirsty a lot quicker and a lot more-

Joe Rogan 36:50 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 36:50 ... frequently. So I, you know, one of the things I learned the first summer I was in Phoenix was knowing where the water fountains are and kinda planning your routes around that.

Joe Rogan 36:59 You drink out of public water fountains?

Zach Bitter 37:01 When I have to. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:01 Do you worry about cooties?

Zach Bitter 37:03 Uh, I haven't gotten anything too miserable yet. In fact, I did a race earlier this year, I think it was in early June, called the San Diego 100, and, uh, it's got this spot in the middle of the course where the aid stations are a little further apart. There's, like, a nine-mile stretch and a seven-mile stretch. And I kinda mistimed how much water I did, so I filled up my water in a stream, and it was probably not an ideal-

Joe Rogan 37:26 Oh, dude.

Zach Bitter 37:27 ... spot, but I rolled the dice, and it did. I didn't get-

Joe Rogan 37:29 Did you ever, you didn't get it?

Zach Bitter 37:29 No, I didn't get anything bad. No, I, my thought during the race was, uh, this is the mindset in the middle of one of these things, is like, "Well, if something really bad happens, it'll happen after the race. So I'll be-" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:37 Definitely would, but i- it's really bad.

Zach Bitter 37:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:39 Giardia is rough.

Zach Bitter 37:40 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 37:40 I, I've never had it, but the people that I know that have had it say it's really bad. But, you know, you could just bring a SteriPEN.

Zach Bitter 37:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:47 But you can't really stop, huh?

Zach Bitter 37:49 Yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 37:49 You can't really... (laughs)

Zach Bitter 37:49 ... in a race I wouldn't want to.

Joe Rogan 37:51 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 37:51 And what, what would, what really helped for me was the, the situation is since the track ra- since the race was on a, an indoor track, 400 and, like, I think, 42 and some odd meters, uh, I was doing a lot of my big, long runs on a 400-meter track.

Joe Rogan 38:05 Oh, okay.

Zach Bitter 38:06 So when I did that, I would just bring out, like, a cooler-

Joe Rogan 38:09 Oh, I see.

Zach Bitter 38:09 ... and I'd have ice-

Joe Rogan 38:10 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 38:10 ... and water in there.

Joe Rogan 38:11 Just have it sit there waiting for you.

Zach Bitter 38:12 Yup, mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:12 Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. That makes sense. But when ... You do a lot of trail running though, right?

Zach Bitter 38:17 I do some of that too, yeah. Historically, I've done a lot more flat, runnable stuff, but now that I'm out in Phoenix, I like to try to split the year into two halves and do some trail stuff in half the year and some, like, flatter road or track or runnable stuff in the second half of the year.

Joe Rogan 38:30 Do you bring water when you run trails? Do you bring, like, a backpack or something like that? Like one of those, um, you know, one of, one of those things?

Zach Bitter 38:37 Like a pack? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:37 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 38:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:38 With the tubes.

Zach Bitter 38:39 Yup.

Joe Rogan 38:39 What the fuck is that? Camels, camel, camelbacks. Yeah.

Zach Bitter 38:42 Yeah, there's, I'll do ... I don't usually use what they call, like, the bladder, which is the tube thing that you're talking about.

Joe Rogan 38:47 Those are nice though.

Zach Bitter 38:47 They are, and you can pack a lot of water.

Joe Rogan 38:49 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 38:50 Um, usually, unless I, unless I'm gonna be away from a potential stop long enough, usually what I'll do is I'll, I'll use the pack, but I'll have, like, smaller little, like, like, little flasks, soft flasks in there.

Joe Rogan 39:00 Oh, okay. So you bring those too that you-

Zach Bitter 39:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:02 ... like, on the, the chest straps?

Zach Bitter 39:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:04 I see a lot of people when they run-

Zach Bitter 39:05 Yup.

Joe Rogan 39:05 ... with those. But you're rolling the dice with that. Like, you, you gotta know how much to sip.

Zach Bitter 39:09 Yeah. And where, and where-

Joe Rogan 39:10 You don't wanna get greedy.

Zach Bitter 39:11 ... the pickup spots are for more.

Joe Rogan 39:12 Yeah. (laughs)

Zach Bitter 39:13 (laughs) Run with friends. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:14 Yeah. Um, when I run with my dog in the summer, when it gets really hot, I bring a Hydro Flask in a backpack-

Zach Bitter 39:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:21 ... in one of those collapsible dog bowls 'cause, you know, I don't want him drinking out of puddles and shit.

Zach Bitter 39:25 Right. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:26 So, but that, just having that extra couple pounds on your back, it, it makes a difference.

Zach Bitter 39:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:32 You, you feel it.

Zach Bitter 39:33 Yeah. Yeah, and that's, that's why, part of the reason why I try to go as minimal as I can with water, if I, if I can get away with it. Obviously, if I go out f- and do, like, a big loop where there's no potential stops, I'm gonna have to carry it all from the beginning. But, uh, if it's a spot where I know, like, I can get to water every five, six, seven miles, then usually I'll, I'll pack a little lighter and not be carrying as much at any one given time.

Joe Rogan 39:56 Do you hydrate up before you go?

Zach Bitter 39:58 Yeah, I mean, I think that's the one, one of the hardest things to really get right in Phoenix, was just, like, kinda learning kinda how much you need to be hydrating, like, between sessions. 'Cause what I usually found out is I could go out and kinda neglect hydration for any one given, like, run or workout, but if I did that, then the next one I'd probably pay for it.

Joe Rogan 40:15 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 40:16 So for me, the big motivation to make sure I'm on top of hydration during any given run is 'cause I know, like, if I don't, then the next one's gonna potentially be miserable.

Joe Rogan 40:24 Suffer.

Zach Bitter 40:25 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:25 Yeah, man. I've done that before. That's, that's a weird feeling, trying to do anything when you're dehydrated.

Zach Bitter 40:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:31 It's like you have a bad battery or something.

Zach Bitter 40:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:33 It's like everything's like, "Oh-"

Zach Bitter 40:35 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 40:35 "... come on."

Zach Bitter 40:37 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:37 It's w- it's, it's amazing how just normal everyday life, like, you could feel, like, a little run down and you barely notice it. But once you start physically exerting, once you start training, once you start doing something hard, that's when you become, like, really in tune with how you're screwing your body up, like drinking, for instance.

Zach Bitter 40:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:57 Like, have a couple of drinks and then run. Like, oh, God. You're like, "Well, this is what's it's doing to my body?"

Zach Bitter 41:02 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:02 "I gotta fucking stop drinking."

Zach Bitter 41:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:04 You know?

Zach Bitter 41:05 Yeah. Yeah. I think you, you ... I, I like drinking to thirst. That's usually what my gauge is, uh, and I haven't really had any issues with it s- with that, with that, so ...

Joe Rogan 41:13 So there's no, like, strategy, like say, "I'm gonna run 25 miles today. Let me drink X amount of liters of water before I go out?"

Zach Bitter 41:20 No. Oh, before the run? Yeah. No, I, I try not to, like, do too much, like, kind of, like, preemptive hydrating, uh, because I think, uh, what you want ... what people oftentimes, I think, do then is they drink too much, and then that comes at a, the expense of your electrolytes too 'cause your body's gonna excrete those. So if I'm, if I find myself ...

Joe Rogan 41:39 Couldn't you just supplement?

Zach Bitter 41:41 You can, yeah. And, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll do a lot more of that, especially in the heat too, just in general, is, like, having a, like, electrolyte supplementation and things like that.

Joe Rogan 41:49 What do you use for your electrolyte supplementation?

Zach Bitter 41:51 I use a product called Hydro X mostly. It's, uh, like a powder that you can kinda mix in with your water by a company named Xendurance. Uh, it, they ha- they make these little tubes now too where, like, so if I'm running and I have, like, one bottle with some in it already, I can have these little, like, this, these little tubes that, uh, if I refill and wanna put more and I can just kinda take them out, pop it off, and, and pour that in. Uh, and, you know, a lot of other people will use ... You can make, like, little caps that, uh, um, you just, like, swallow it with your water and it's got, like, the formulation of the different electrolytes in there kinda dialed in-And, um, you know, that's a l- and I think that's a little more hit or miss as to like, like where people feel you need that. Some people tell you you don't really need electrolytes at all, you just need to salt your foods and things like that, all the way to like you should be taking X number of these every hour. Um-

Joe Rogan 42:40 Well, there's gotta be science behind it, right? I mean, do you, are you take, getting blood tests and finding out what your levels are pre and post workouts or anything along those lines?

Zach Bitter 42:47 Yeah, I haven't done any like post-workout tests just other than... I mean, I was part of the Faster study, which was a, a study that looked at high carbon, high fat athletes, and I think they were looking at some of that stuff too. Um, and like anytime I've ever had a blood test done though by like my, my electrolytes, like my sodium potassium level's always been in range, so I haven't really tried to... It's one of those things then where it's like I'm probably not gonna try to fix something that's not broken.

Joe Rogan 43:12 Right, and you're pretty diligent about your supplementation and things along those lines.

Zach Bitter 43:15 Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I mean, I, I, I definitely am not afraid to salt my food. You know, most of my food is conducive to putting salt on, uh, so you know, I'm probably getting quite a bit of that stuff just in my day, day-to-day nutrition too.

Joe Rogan 43:26 Do you have a specific salt that you like? Do you use Himalayan? Do you use sea salt? Like what do you, what do you like to use?

Zach Bitter 43:31 Yeah, I like to get sea salt. Uh, lately I've been using, uh, this stuff called Redmond's S- Sea Salt. They, they get their salt outta like, uh, it's... I believe it's in Utah, in Salt Lake.

Joe Rogan 43:42 Oh, okay.

Zach Bitter 43:42 And I, I don't know like if the, how accurate or whatever this is, but like they, I heard that if you can get an inland sea salt, it's better because it's not like, uh, it doesn't have potential, as many potential toxins that you're gonna find in like ocean sea salt.

Joe Rogan 43:56 Mercury and things along those lines.

Zach Bitter 43:57 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:57 Yeah, that's what the, the idea about Himalayan sea salt is, right?

Zach Bitter 44:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:01 Because it's no real fuckin' sea in the Himalayas.

Zach Bitter 44:03 Right, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:04 (laughs) Right? What, I mean, wha- is it called Himalayan sea salt or am I just making that up? Or is it Himalayan salt?

Zach Bitter 44:11 I think it's sea salt, right?

Joe Rogan 44:12 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 44:12 Like the pink Himalayan sea salt?

Joe Rogan 44:13 Right.

Zach Bitter 44:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:14 But how was it sea salt? Explain that. How does that work? Was it an older sea? Like one of those like-

Zach Bitter 44:21 I wonder if that's what it is and it's-

Narrator 44:22 It's Himalayan salt.

Zach Bitter 44:23 ... it's just like these big salt... Oh, it is just salt?

Joe Rogan 44:25 Right.

Zach Bitter 44:25 Okay.

Joe Rogan 44:25 Oh, it's just Himalayan salt? No?

Narrator 44:27 It both comes up.

Joe Rogan 44:28 Oh, yeah, I think I've heard it.

Zach Bitter 44:29 Like an old sea that's no longer there and they just have the big salt deposits leftover?

Joe Rogan 44:32 Right, like that's wh- a lot of Montana is the great western in- inland sea.

Zach Bitter 44:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:38 You know, like millions of years ago.

Zach Bitter 44:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:40 Like, they find seashells in Montana.

Zach Bitter 44:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:43 Which is just fuckin' bonkers.

Zach Bitter 44:45 Yeah, it's crazy. Uh, I was, I was in, uh, Utah earlier in the year and I can't remember where we were, just out of Salt Lake, and apparently that used to be on a c- underwater too, and like they'll find like shark teeth and stuff like that around there.

Joe Rogan 44:58 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 44:58 Like, and it's j- you're up on this like trail and like there's no water in sight. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:01 See, think about that next time you see some asshole that spent $10 million on a house on the beach.

Zach Bitter 45:05 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:06 (laughs) Like what makes you think that's gonna stay there, man?

Zach Bitter 45:08 He's gonna, he's gonna pay, pay for that eventually.

Joe Rogan 45:09 Yeah, that is not gonna be here. (laughs) Something's gonna be different in the future.

Zach Bitter 45:13 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 45:14 It's always been that way. Like there's no permanent like place where the water is or the water isn't.

Zach Bitter 45:19 Yeah, it is funny how we think of that though, where it's like-

Joe Rogan 45:22 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 45:22 ... we see the map now and we're like, "Oh, okay, this is just how it is." And it's like-

Joe Rogan 45:25 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 45:25 ... maybe not. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:26 Well, look at Pangaea.

Zach Bitter 45:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:27 You know? Uh, things change pretty goddamn radically.

Zach Bitter 45:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:30 What's up, Jamie?

Narrator 45:31 I don't know the accuracy of this, but I just found this.

Joe Rogan 45:33 Okay, Himalayan sea salt is a gourmet salt with a slightly misleading name. It doesn't come from the Himalayan mountains. Oh, Jesus.

Narrator 45:40 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:41 And it doesn't come from a sea. These motherfuckers.

Narrator 45:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:43 However, it's definitely a sea salt, so it's not a total misnomer. Himalayan salt actually refers to excl- exclusively to Pakistani rock salt... Hmm ... that used to be sea salt hundreds of millions of years ago. So why don't we call it Pakistan- if I was Pakistani, I'd be pissed.

Zach Bitter 46:01 I'd be mad, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:02 Like these motherfuckers are stealing our shine.

Zach Bitter 46:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:05 When a sea spreading over the region dried up, it was covered by geological shifts leaving massive deposits of salt scattered throughout the hills. Odd name aside, Himalayan salt has a lot going for it. It's tasty, it's pink, and some even claim it has healing prop- well those fucking healing properties assholes.

Zach Bitter 46:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:23 Those are the people that like crystals. Yeah, we got-

Zach Bitter 46:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:25 That's what that is.

Narrator 46:26 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:26 We have a big Hu- Himalayan salt rock right there.

Zach Bitter 46:28 There you go.

Joe Rogan 46:29 Yeah, wi-

Zach Bitter 46:29 Feeling low, I'll just go lick that, I guess.

Joe Rogan 46:30 Lick that sucker.

Zach Bitter 46:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:32 Has anybody licked that yet? Someone must've licked it when we weren't looking.

Zach Bitter 46:35 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 46:35 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 46:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:37 Yeah, I, I like Himalayan salt though. It's, it's-

Zach Bitter 46:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:39 It does... It's nice. But like for cooking, like for cooking meat in particular, I like kosher salt-

Zach Bitter 46:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:44 ... 'cause it's got the big, big flakes.

Zach Bitter 46:46 The flakes, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:47 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 46:47 What's the... When, when you put the big flakes on there, does that help like retain the moisture on it or-

Joe Rogan 46:51 Allegedly.

Zach Bitter 46:53 Okay.

Joe Rogan 46:53 I don't know. You know, I cook in a Traeger-

Zach Bitter 46:55 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 46:55 ... which is I, I th- I find that the low heat and-

Zach Bitter 46:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:59 ... the, um, uh, the, what, the, what I do is, uh, I cook at about 225 degrees and they have a setting called Super Smoke so it sorta accentuates the smoke. You know what a Traeger is, right?

Zach Bitter 47:09 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:09 For folks who don't know, it's, it's a pellet grill and what pellet grills are, they, they use something like this table. Like when they make this table, this is hardwood, this is made out of oak. They would saw the, the, the tree and the sawdust, in the past, they would just sort of throw out. Well then they figured out, well you can compress that sawdust and turn it into these pellets using the natural sugars from the wood so there's no chemicals at all, and there's a lot of like really good ones but, you know, the one that I use is a Traeger and when they compress these pellets, there's a heating element that's electrically fired, um, inside the, uh, the grill.

Zach Bitter 47:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:44 That heating element turns into flame and it turn- it cooks the, um, pellets and turns it into fire so it's just fire and wood. It's really pure so you're just basically cooking over wood and it's-

Zach Bitter 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:56 ... you can t- perfectly regulate the temperature and you do it on your app and all that stuff but because it's so well insulated and I cook... Most of what I cook is wild game which is very low in fat.

Zach Bitter 48:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:08 So you really can't... You, you really shouldn't cook at high heat or-

Zach Bitter 48:11 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 48:11 ... for any long period of time. You gotta, you gotta make sure you monitor the temperature of the actual food itself so I like to put it in there and I get it up to about 125, 130 degrees and then I sear it on a cast iron fan- frying pan.

Zach Bitter 48:24 Okay.

Joe Rogan 48:24 Usually in beef tallow. Be- beef tallow-

Zach Bitter 48:26 There you go.

Joe Rogan 48:26 ... is what I like-

Zach Bitter 48:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:27 ... the best for that so I get some more extra fats, healthy fats with that.

Zach Bitter 48:31 I've been doing a lot of slow cooking lately.

Joe Rogan 48:33 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 48:33 I'll go in phases where I'll be grilling and I gotta get a pellet grill though. Those things look pretty sweet. Uh-

Joe Rogan 48:37 Yeah, I'll hook up... I'll hook you up. I'll have Traeger send you one.

Zach Bitter 48:39 Oh, awesome. That'd be great. Thank-

Joe Rogan 48:40 Dude, they're the... But once-

Zach Bitter 48:41 Thanks in advance, Traeger. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:42 (laughs) Once you use one, it's like I, I have a regular grill, it's just fucking gathering dust.

Zach Bitter 48:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:49 I don't even touch it anymore 'cause it's... You could do everything on this thing and it's so easy to maintain the exact perfect temperature.

Zach Bitter 48:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:55 And again, for game, like I'm not cooking it at high heat. I'm not worried as much about r- losing moisture or stuff like that.

Zach Bitter 49:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:02 It's mostly a flavor thing. I really just love the flavor of like the salty on the outside and then especially when it's seared.

Zach Bitter 49:09 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 49:09 You know, it's just nice.

Zach Bitter 49:10 Yeah, yeah, you know, I...... I think, like, that the low and slow is the way to go for a lot of that stuff. And-

Narrator 49:16 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 49:16 ... when I do a ... When I roast a ... Uh, I'll, I'll get, like, a roast and I'll put it in a slow cooker. And, uh, ultimately, some of the fat'll separate and kinda form on the top. And I'll always take that off and use it, cook eggs and stuff later. So, it's-

Narrator 49:28 Ooh, that's nice.

Zach Bitter 49:29 Yeah, yeah, gives it

Joe Rogan 49:30 Well, a lot of people have their own idea-

Narrator 49:31 It's so good.

Joe Rogan 49:31 ... about what to do and what not to do, but I, I learned this from a guy named Chad Ward. His, uh, l- label on Instagram is Whiskey Bent BBQ.

Zach Bitter 49:40 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:41 And he's a world champion pit master.

Zach Bitter 49:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:44 And this fucking guy can cook his ass off.

Zach Bitter 49:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:46 Oh my God, he's cooked for us a few times in, in hunting camps and his food is insane. He's so good. And that's his philosophy, is the reverse sear method. This is where I learned it from. I learned it from him.

Zach Bitter 49:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:59 A lot of times, people will cook it, they sear it on the outside, and then they try to finish it off. And you can do that that way, but it's not as good. It's better to bring it up to temperature slowly inside, like a pellet grill. Another good method is sous vide. Do you ever sous vide things?

Zach Bitter 50:15 I, I haven't yet. I've had it from restaurants before, though.

Joe Rogan 50:17 That's great.

Zach Bitter 50:18 Like, I was talking to someone, they said a lot of restaurants now do that, just so they can kinda y- make their ... all their stuff more uniform.

Joe Rogan 50:23 Yes.

Zach Bitter 50:23 So, you go and you get exactly what you did the last time.

Joe Rogan 50:26 Yeah, they don't d- no one fucks up.

Zach Bitter 50:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:28 'Cause if you go ... You know, you can go to a restaurant and order medium rare and it comes out well done.

Zach Bitter 50:31 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:31 And you get mad.

Zach Bitter 50:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:32 I've, I've had that happen, right? But the sous vide method is fantastic too, because say if you have a steak and you want that steak to be 135 degrees, you basically put the, the, the setting at 135 degrees and you can put it in there for four hours.

Zach Bitter 50:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:48 So, when you get it, it's just all the tendons and ligaments and all that stuff is just broken down. All the fascia's broken down and it's just so tender. But it feels weird, 'cause you're boiling it-

Zach Bitter 50:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:59 ... in a fucking plastic bag.

Zach Bitter 51:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:00 It seems so wrong. It's like, you're not ... I mean, I know it's a different kind of plastic, but you're not even supposed to drink water if your-

Zach Bitter 51:07 Out of plastic, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:07 ... if your plastic bottle has been sitting in a hot car.

Zach Bitter 51:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:10 It's like, how the fuck can you ... Apparently, you can. It's not an issue at all, you know, to cook in it.

Zach Bitter 51:16 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 51:16 But, uh, it makes me feel weird.

Zach Bitter 51:18 E- eventually, we'll hear in five years that that's gonna, like, give us cancer or something.

Narrator 51:22 Ah.

Zach Bitter 51:23 (laughs)

Narrator 51:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:23 I don't know, man.

Zach Bitter 51:24 No?

Joe Rogan 51:24 I don't think so.

Zach Bitter 51:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:25 I mean, what is the reason why they can ... Okay, here, w- we're going down a rabbit hole.

Zach Bitter 51:30 Uh, uh-oh.

Joe Rogan 51:30 Let's try. Let's go down the sous vide rabbit hole.

Zach Bitter 51:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:33 Why is it okay to sous vide your food? And why doesn't it leak? What is it, BCPs? Is that what they're worried about?

Zach Bitter 51:40 BCPAs, BCAs.

Joe Rogan 51:42 BCAs?

Zach Bitter 51:42 BCAs, one of them.

Joe Rogan 51:43 BCAs? BC- BPA (laughs) , which is a bunch of ... B and a bunch of other letters, which is supposed to be what you get when you-

Zach Bitter 51:49 There's probably s- some NASA scientist who figured it out, though, right? Like ...

Narrator 51:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:52 Maybe not, man. Maybe the same guy who said smoking's fine.

Zach Bitter 51:55 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:56 You know? Remember the ... (laughs)

Zach Bitter 51:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:57 You know, "A- a- doctors prefer Camel."

Zach Bitter 52:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:00 Remember those ads?

Zach Bitter 52:01 Yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 52:02 I mean, you know, I don't think we're dealing with that. But it just, it s- it feels weird. But it, for as far as flavor, it's a phenomenal way to cook. And, uh, particularly wild game, it's really good for, because again, you don't overcook it. Like, if you wanna cook an elk steak to 130 degrees and then blowtorch the outside, that's what a lot of people do.

Zach Bitter 52:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:21 You know, th- that's how you finish on a sous vide. You, you basically use a fucking blowtorch.

Zach Bitter 52:26 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 52:26 You know, so I have this, um, I guess it's like the Elon Musk flamethrower in the background. I literally could use that.

Zach Bitter 52:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:33 'Cause it's basically the same thing.

Zach Bitter 52:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:35 It's just a, a fucking torch. And you torch the outside of it to get a nice, c- you know, caramelized crust.

Zach Bitter 52:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:41 And then the inside, you know, is perfectly cooked.

Zach Bitter 52:43 Super tender.

Joe Rogan 52:44 Yeah. What does it say, Jamie?

Narrator 52:45 I don't like this one.

Joe Rogan 52:46 You don't like it? (laughs)

Zach Bitter 52:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:48 Does it say it's gonna kill you?

Narrator 52:50 Yeah, the first one just says, like, "There's ... After a consider amount of research that's been done, we believe the answer is, it's safe." And it's like they believe it is.

Joe Rogan 52:57 Oh, that doesn't mean anything.

Zach Bitter 52:58 No, it just says m- left a little window, but ...

Narrator 52:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:59 Well, I feel like if you don't cook in it every day all ... Like, um, when, uh, the director of The Cove was in here ... I always fucking have a hard time saying his last name. Psahoyas.

Zach Bitter 53:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:10 Psahoyas, Louis Psahoyas was in here. He was explaining how, um, he was eating a lot of fish. Before he became a vegan, he, he was eating a ton of fish. And his mercury levels had really shot up-

Zach Bitter 53:22 Oh.

Joe Rogan 53:22 ... because a lot of fish has, like, a lot of fucking mercury. And if you eat fish for morning, noon and night every day, day after day after day-

Zach Bitter 53:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:29 ... you can develop high mercur- mercury-

Zach Bitter 53:31 Sure.

Joe Rogan 53:31 ... levels. But then I talked to other scientists, they said, "Yes, if you're eating it every day, all day."

Zach Bitter 53:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:37 But if you just eat fish, like, once a week, you're fine. Like, don't worry about it. Or even twice a week. So I was like, "Oh, okay."

Zach Bitter 53:43 Did they say anything? 'Cause I remember, like, when ... I think it was probably when the Mediterranean diet got popular, people were all in on salmon and stuff-

Joe Rogan 53:51 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 53:51 ... and seafood and, uh, then they said everyone went wild-caught.

Joe Rogan 53:55 Yes.

Zach Bitter 53:55 And, and I guess that's where you'd get the mercury. But then the ... And they would say, like, the farm-raised salmon are not as good for you, for whatever reason. And, but then I guess now farm-raised is what you're supposed to get, because that's gonna ... They can control that environment and make sure there's no mer-

Joe Rogan 54:08 But I heard ... What Louis was saying was that it's even worse.

Zach Bitter 54:10 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 54:11 Yeah, in terms of, like, the heavy metals and tox-

Zach Bitter 54:13 Oh.

Joe Rogan 54:13 Because you gotta think, they're just sitting there.

Zach Bitter 54:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:16 You know? Like, it's ... Like, at least in the ocean, they're, they're migrating, they're moving around, they're swimming to different places. Like, that p- p- that podcast that I did with him was so disturbing, 'cause I've always had this weird ... Not weird, um, just this sort of, um, peripheral fear of what we're doing to the ocean.

Zach Bitter 54:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:33 You know, this, like, thing, like, "Man, w- w- how many assholes are out there just giant nets-

Zach Bitter 54:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:38 ... just pulling fish outta the ocean right now as we speak? And how, how much is that sustainable?"

Zach Bitter 54:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:43 I mean, I, I think individual people fishing is sustainable.

Zach Bitter 54:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:47 But that's not what's going on. It's j- huge nets. They're just scooping up everything.

Zach Bitter 54:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:52 And the, the conversation that I had with him scared the shit out of me, for the future of the ocean. Because what was ... What's been done, the amount of damage that's been done over 100 years, it's very similar to the amount of damage that was done sort of at the, uh, end of the, um-... the end of the 18th century, the beginning of the 19th century in the United States, where the market hunters-

Zach Bitter 55:16 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:16 ... they basically wiped out almost every animal, wiped out the buffalo. Do you know when they were shooting the buffalo, they were basically shooting 'em for their hides?

Zach Bitter 55:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:23 And their tongues.

Zach Bitter 55:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:24 And they would leave the carcasses to rot.

Zach Bitter 55:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:27 Which is just insane when you think about bison today as, like, one of the most cherished meats.

Zach Bitter 55:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:31 You know, because it's so delicious and so good for you and high in protein and it tastes great.

Zach Bitter 55:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:37 But we basically almost wiped out every animal on this entire continent until they stepped in and decided to start regulating hunting and-

Zach Bitter 55:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:46 ... and stopping it, and then sort of w- made concerted efforts to reintroduce animals. And still most of 'em are not at their historic range.

Zach Bitter 55:55 Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, uh, you know, it gets interesting when you start looking into some of that stuff. But, uh, hopefully they get the, the bison herd back to where they need to at some point.

Joe Rogan 56:03 Well, they kinda have that. I mean, there's, there's basically a, a healthy supply of bison, but not the ocean.

Zach Bitter 56:08 Oh, yeah, uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 56:09 The, the thing is, like, the same thing that we did, or not we, you and I weren't alive-

Zach Bitter 56:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:14 ... but that human beings did in North America, they're doing right now, the world is doing to the ocean.

Zach Bitter 56:19 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:20 And there's no real concerted effort to reintroduce these animals or s- or fish, rather.

Zach Bitter 56:24 Sure. I see what you're saying. Yeah, so we're, we're essentially not learning from our past mistakes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:28 Well, yeah, we're just ... And it's also, there's too many people involved. The thing about the ocean is it's kind of unregulated, right?

Zach Bitter 56:33 Right. Yeah, 'cause who is it, right?

Joe Rogan 56:35 It's just, it's the Wild West out there.

Zach Bitter 56:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:36 It's just this big, gigantic swath of ... It's, it's basically like another world that's connected to our world.

Zach Bitter 56:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:43 You know, it's a water world. We have the land world, and the land monsters go into the water world with these floating little-

Zach Bitter 56:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:49 ... fucking killing machines and suck all the living forces and living beings out of the water world, and then serve it up on rice.

Zach Bitter 56:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:58 Sushi. Ah, I'm eating healthy.

Zach Bitter 57:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:00 You know, but it's just, it's weird. Are you still doing, um ... You, you were doing a podcast with, uh, Dr. Shawn Baker, right?

Zach Bitter 57:09 Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, Human Performance Outliers podcast. We've been, uh, doing ... I think we've got maybe 175 episodes now, so we've been going-

Joe Rogan 57:18 Oh, so you guys are still haul at it?

Zach Bitter 57:20 Yeah, yeah. We're not ... We, we had a stretch where we were doing about three a week, but we've kind of backed off a little bit of that, where just scheduling and stuff gets harder and harder.

Joe Rogan 57:27 How do you do it? Do you do it over the phone? 'Cause-

Zach Bitter 57:28 Yeah, that's always the hardest part is-

Joe Rogan 57:30 Where is he?

Zach Bitter 57:30 He's, he's, uh, down in, in Southern California, so-

Joe Rogan 57:33 Okay, and then you're in-

Zach Bitter 57:35 Phoenix.

Joe Rogan 57:35 ... Arizona.

Zach Bitter 57:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:36 And so do you have guests and do that over the phone?

Zach Bitter 57:38 Yeah, we'll bring 'em in and we'll record with, like, Zoom video recording and then, uh, bring it up. But that's always the hardest part is getting the audio quality for that, because-

Joe Rogan 57:47 It's awkward too, right?

Zach Bitter 57:48 Yeah, uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 57:49 I, I really ... I've only done over the last few years, I did the Snowden interview-

Zach Bitter 57:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:53 ... which I did remotely, and I did one, uh, with, uh, Dr. Anthony West, who's an Egy- Egyptologist.

Zach Bitter 57:59 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 57:59 I did it with him. But, um, most, most of the time when you do it with a, with Skype or anything along those lines, it's like you're kinda talking over each other. There's this weird delay. It feels inorganic.

Zach Bitter 58:12 Uh-huh. Yeah, in person's the way to go-

Joe Rogan 58:14 Yeah.

Zach Bitter 58:14 ... uh, if you can do it, so props to you for getting it done. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:17 But I just ... Well, I mean, I just don't ... I mean, I just don't, um, I don't like it. It feels ... I feel ... I don't feel connected.

Zach Bitter 58:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:25 Right? It feels awkward.

Zach Bitter 58:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:27 It doesn't, doesn't make a good product, I don't think, as good a product for me.

Zach Bitter 58:30 No, for sure. Yeah, you're taking a step back if you do remote, for sure. So, um, yeah, but it's been, it's been a cool experience just from a learning standpoint. I mean, we ... I don't think we really have a specific direction. I mean, Shawn's, Shawn's, uh, kinda the guy that everyone looks to at, from the carnivore thing, so I think sometimes we get identified as carnivore, but, uh, we definitely go down a bunch of different rabbit holes. Like, we did, um ... We've had a lot of, like, uh, the, some of the protein researchers come on and talk about some of that stuff, like, uh, Dr. Stu Phillips, or Professor Stu Phillips, uh, Professor Don Layman, Professor, uh, Jose Antonio.

Joe Rogan 59:04 What kind of ... What do you mean by protein stuff? Like different qualities of protein?

Zach Bitter 59:07 Like the ... Yeah, they're doing, like, the protein research. They're kinda the guys who are on the ... doing some of the more recent research and looking at, like, "Well, what are our protein needs vari- across, like, a variety of ages, as well as when you introduce athletics?" And then, like, "What is the quality versus ..." Or, like, I guess maybe the best way to look at it is, like, the bioavailability of different protein sources and things like that. And, um, I think there's a ... It, it seems like something that we've, we'd have figured out already, uh, but there's, I guess, some nuance with that even, and, uh, now we're ... They're, they're saying that there's, there's probably reason to believe that our, our recommendations should be higher than what they have been historically, especially for athletes and elderly folks. And-

Joe Rogan 59:44 You mean the RDA, right, an idea of-

Zach Bitter 59:46 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:46 Yeah. The RDA as it currently stands is basically just to prevent disease, right?

Zach Bitter 59:50 Mm-hmm, yeah, something like that. And I think they're, I think they maybe are learning more too about just kinda what role protein plays in bone health too, as opposed to just-

Joe Rogan 59:58 Hmm.

Zach Bitter 59:58 ... 'cause people think of protein as just this building block for muscle. But, um, there's a lot that goes into it with, with bone, bone health as well. So those guys have been really interesting to hear, hear about. And, you know, we've done a lot of stuff with, uh, ranchers and, uh, some of the, like, the Savory, Salatin folks come on the show and talk about kinda that practice versus kinda your standard agricultural production methods and things like that and-

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 Who's Savory Sal- You mean Joel Salatin?

Zach Bitter 1:00:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 What did, what is Savory? What do you mean?

Zach Bitter 1:00:24 Oh, like Allan Savory?

Joe Rogan 1:00:25 Okay.

Zach Bitter 1:00:25 So we've had Allan Savory, Joel Salatin, Will Harris from White Oak Pastures on, um, Bobby Gill, he's part of the Savory Institute, come on and just kinda share with us, like, kinda where that stuff is at. 'Cause I think there's a lot of, uh, guesswork and unanswerable questions at this point with, with that, some of that stuff, 'cause we're projecting, like, you know, way down the road with some of this stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Are you talking about the difference between grain-fed versus grass-fed meat?

Zach Bitter 1:00:48 Yeah, and more specifically with those guys too, just, like, kinda what it's doing to the soil health and the soil quality.

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 1:00:55 So one thing that I've learned that was interesting was that, uh ... I mean, we kinda start to, like, throw a lot of these different, like, quote-unquote regenerative type, uh, regenerative type practices into one, like, bucket or one category, when in reality there's a lot of different variants within them. So someone can say like, "Oh, regenerative agriculture is gonna save the planet," and then someone will go dig up a bunch of studies that show, like, well, no, it actually doesn't do anything.And then, like, so-

Joe Rogan 1:01:21 Yeah, I'm, I'm confused on that 'cause Chris Kresser's all in on this regenerative agricultural thing.

Zach Bitter 1:01:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 But has there e- is there real evidence that you can have a zero carbon gain?

Zach Bitter 1:01:33 Yeah, I mean, it's, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 'Cause that's the, that's the, the p- the net positive.

Zach Bitter 1:01:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 The idea is that if you use regenerative agriculture, meaning the animals graze, they're, there's, uh, you're not talking about mono-crop environments, that these cows graze on open fields of grass-

Zach Bitter 1:01:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 ... and then they shit all over the place, and then, you know, that, that shit becomes manure, and that this actually helps the plant life grow-

Zach Bitter 1:01:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 ... and all this stuff sort of f- it all becomes a part of a cycle.

Zach Bitter 1:02:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 And that this regenerative practice-

Zach Bitter 1:02:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 ... is actually, instead of raising the carbon footprint, it actually makes a carbon neutral footprint.

Zach Bitter 1:02:12 Yeah, yeah, and I think where sometimes it gets confusing is if you go and you just look at studies on regenerative agriculture, you get a lot of mixed information. So what I was told, um-

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 (laughs)

Zach Bitter 1:02:22 ... and I'm still kinda going down this rabbit hole, and, uh, the way I like to look at all these type of things is I try to, like, look at one side of the story and then look to the other side and see where the counters are to that, and just kinda go back and forth until you hit a dead end, and then-

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 1:02:34 ... you know, if you hit a dead end, like, that's where you're at for now until y- something else gets introduced. And where I got to now is, uh, uh, I k- I think it was maybe Will Harris told us this, uh, that, um, when you're looking for these studies on kind of what practice is gonna be good in terms of, like, soil regeneration, you have to look up, uh, adaptive multi-paddock grazing. Because if you look up, like, holistic or regenerative agriculture, you're gonna just get a whole mess of, like, different ranges, or different types of it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 1:03:02 And, you know, some are effective, some aren't. So it's really hard to kind of piece out, you know, w- who's got the accurate stuff and not. And, uh, I mean, I think ultimately, some of this stuff is that we just don't know yet. And we're still learning.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 What was the one that's m- most ... What'd you just say?

Zach Bitter 1:03:14 Adaptive multi-paddock grazing.

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 And what does that mean?

Zach Bitter 1:03:17 Um, it just means, like, you're, instead of kinda ... You're, you're ... It's a rotational grazing, from what I understand, but you're kinda moving the, the herd along to these different paddocks, and then they're, like, you know, they're doing their thing in a what we consider, like, a, a natural way, like it would have been before we came in and, you know, shot all the buffalo and all that stuff. And, uh, then they're rotating it. So the way I've been under- I've understood it, like, the more of those paddocks you can get, the better.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 Mm-hmm.

Zach Bitter 1:03:41 Because then you're letting the, the soil and the, um, and everything in there, like, really heal and, and develop that deep root system, as well as some of that microbiome, like all the insects and things that would be in there-

Joe Rogan 1:03:53 Right.

Zach Bitter 1:03:53 ... and, and all that stuff. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 So you would need massive amounts