Joe Rogan Experience #1402 - Boyan Slat

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... two. What's up,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... two. What's up, fella? How are you? Good to see you again, man.

   2. BSBoyan Slat0:06

      Likewise.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      I've been reading that you are having some great success with your machine finally. It's, uh, everything's up and running. Last time we talked, you had yet to implement it actually out in the wild, and, uh, now you, e- explain to us what happened. You had some bumps in the beginning, right?

   4. BSBoyan Slat0:22

      Yes. Yeah. So it's been quite a, quite a few years. Finally something's happening. Um, so we, uh, we launched our first ocean system from San Francisco in, uh, September of last year. And we, we took it out and roughly two months later we fi- we figured that, first of all, it wasn't catching plastic, so what we saw was that the system was moving at roughly the same speed as the plastic. So maybe just take one step back, the, the idea and how, how it works.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:52

      Sure. Yeah.

   6. BSBoyan Slat0:53

      So, so of course, we have this, this great Pacific garbage patch between here and Hawaii, twice the size of Texas, 100 million kilos of plastic doesn't go away by itself. And the idea was to, to have this artificial coastline that is driven by the forces of the ocean. We, we put it in there, and the plastic naturally accumulates against it and kind of stays in there so we can then periodically get it out, because the, the, the, the, the big challenge is that although there's a lot of plastic, it's, it's spread out over this, this vast area. So we first have to concentrate it before we can take it out, because if you were to simply trawl the ocean for plastic with boats and nets, it would just take, um, you know, for- forever really. So, so the idea was to, to, to have those artificial coastlines. We deployed the first one, and then what we saw was that somehow the system was moving at the same speed as the plastic. So you can imagine if, if, you know, this is like a, your, your Pac-Man and this is your, your, you know, your, your catch and it's moving at the same speed, you know, it's not going in, um, and sometimes it did go in but it went out again.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:56

      We got a video of it, what it was doing.

   8. BSBoyan Slat1:58

      Oh, that's great. Yeah. So-

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:59

      Yeah.

   10. BSBoyan Slat2:00

       So this is the basic idea. Um, but it wasn't doing that. So, so, and then, you know, we thought, okay, that's, that's all right. We'll learn from it. We'll try and adjust the systems. And then literally, you know, exactly a year ago, uh, the system broke into two and, um, so we had the structural failure forcing us to tow the whole thing back to land and, uh, go back to the drawing board. So, so we didn't have the, the best start of this year.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:26

       How much time has been lost? Or how much time has been spent, I should say, um, in the beginning phase, the in- initial-

   12. BSBoyan Slat2:33

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:33

       ... version that you launched-

   14. BSBoyan Slat2:34

       Oh.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       ... versus where you're at now?

   16. BSBoyan Slat2:36

       So we've been going on at this for since 2013.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:40

       Oh, wow. Six years.

   18. BSBoyan Slat2:40

       So after... Yeah. So basically after five years launching it and seeing it break into two, that was... wasn't the, the, the best start of the year I could, could have imagined. Um, but then, you know, went to the drawing board, um, and, you know, the team really took it well, they... And, you know, we took those lessons into account, adjusted the design and relaunched really just a few months later, so in June. And this time we made the system a bit- a bit more modular so we could try different things to try and, uh, adjust the speed, make it go faster, make it go slower. And then what we figured was, well, the system isn't going fast enough. What if we actually turn the problem into a solution? What if we turn it around and actually slow it down so that it goes slower than the plastic? And then what we figured, um, that, that, that actually works. And, uh, in October we announced that we're actually catching plastic and really just last week the first two shipping containers full, full of plastic were, uh, were landed in port.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       Wow, so it's really recently up and running-

   20. BSBoyan Slat3:39

       Yes.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:39

       ... the way you expected it.

   22. BSBoyan Slat3:41

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:41

       Now how long does it take to accumulate two shipping containers full?

   24. BSBoyan Slat3:44

       Oh, so that was roughly month, month and a half.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:47

       And how big are these shipping containers?

   26. BSBoyan Slat3:48

       Uh, 20 foot, so probably two of these rooms.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:51

       So the only thing that's really stopping it from getting more is like the actual size of the net itself.

   28. BSBoyan Slat3:56

       Yes. So, so that's the next step. So now that we kind of went from zero to one, we have the basic principle, uh, of catching plastic confirmed, uh, we now have to make it bigger before we can s- uh, build a whole fleet of them because, you know, we, we rec- we need maybe 50 or 100 of them to really clean up half this patch in five years. That's, that's the objective.

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:16

       Half the whole patch in five years, that's the real objective?

   30. BSBoyan Slat4:19

       That's what we wanna do.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Two meters? Really? …

   1. BSBoyan Slat15:00

      which was probably two meters. We should probably post that photo. It was kind of climbing onto the barrier and then it just swam around it. So, um, yeah.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:09

      Two meters? Really?

   3. BSBoyan Slat15:11

      Yeah. Or one and a half. Like, it was-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      What kind of lizard is that?

   5. BSBoyan Slat15:14

      Uh, I don't th- I don't know the name. But it, it was-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      Some kind of monitor or something?

   7. BSBoyan Slat15:19

      Monitor. That's-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:20

      Yeah.

   9. BSBoyan Slat15:20

      You're right. Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:21

       Yeah. Do you have a image? Where is that? Do you see a f- an image of that? No?

   11. BSBoyan Slat15:26

       I'll post it next week.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:27

       Oh, you haven't posted it before?

   13. BSBoyan Slat15:28

       No, no.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       Oh, okay. He was looking for it.

   15. BSBoyan Slat15:30

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       I thought you were saying it was out there. Um, so it's safe for fish. Um, what about the, the stuff that doesn't float on the very surface?

   17. BSBoyan Slat15:38

       Right. So the, the system goes down one meter, and what we measured is that really almost all the plastic is in that top layer.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:46

       Okay.

   19. BSBoyan Slat15:46

       So sure, you know, it won't be 100% efficient, but I think it's, it's really about having this pragmatic thing that catches most of it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:54

       And most importantly, leaves wildlife alone, 'cause everything else can just swim underneath that.

   21. BSBoyan Slat15:58

       Exactly.

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       Yeah. That's m-

   23. BSBoyan Slat15:59

       Exactly.

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       That's great. Um, and so this plan that you had, uh, when, you know, it's been six years running.

   25. BSBoyan Slat16:07

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Uh, how much of your daily time is devoted to this?

   27. BSBoyan Slat16:13

       Oh, I don't think there's much, much free time at all. (laughs) So I guess for the past year, I've na- I've not had a single free day. Uh, so-

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:24

       Not a single?

   29. BSBoyan Slat16:25

       Yeah. Just 9:00 AM to usually, you know, 9:00 PM in the office. Just it's been, uh, busy. But I think it was, uh, it was worth it, uh, looking where we were beginning of the year to where we're now. Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:40

       Well, now that you've actually pulled these cargo containers filled with plastic out of the ocean, that must give you an extreme feeling of satisfaction, right? That you've, you've actually made it work. Like you-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. BSBoyan Slat30:00

      many forms in which carbon exists.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      Yeah.

   3. BSBoyan Slat30:03

      So-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      I know they are-

   5. BSBoyan Slat30:05

      ... different crystal structures.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:05

      They are doing that now, where they are making, um, commercially made diamonds. Diamonds are made of carbon, so they form as carbon atoms under a high temperature and spr- and pressure. They bond together to start growing crystals. That's why a diamond is such a hard material, because you have each carbon atom participating in four of these very strong covalent bonds that form between carbon atoms. I've never word that... Read that word out loud.

   7. BSBoyan Slat30:30

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:30

      Covalent. Have you ever read that word out loud?

   9. BSBoyan Slat30:32

      Co- covalent, I believe.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:34

       Is that how you say it?

   11. BSBoyan Slat30:34

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:35

       ... I've never even seen that word. Uh, so these bonds that form between carbon atoms. So I know they're doing it now. They, they're m- they're making diamonds with certain machines.

   13. BSBoyan Slat30:44

       High pressure, high heat?

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       Yeah. If they did, that would be, that would be hilarious. That would be a good thing too, because they would put a dent in the actual diamond market, which is this weird locked down fucking strange market. Because diamonds aren't nearly as valuable as they're set out to be. De Beers takes these diamonds and they stockpile them, and they only release a certain amount of them, and they keep the price very high.

   15. BSBoyan Slat31:05

       Huh.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:06

       But it's all engineered.

   17. BSBoyan Slat31:07

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       Like the profit ... Like diamonds used to be far more rare than they are now.

   19. BSBoyan Slat31:11

       Hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       But with, uh, the innovation and mining technology, and the ability to get to diamonds they couldn't get to before, they have a lot of diamonds.

   21. BSBoyan Slat31:18

       Okay.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:19

       It's, it's not as valuable as it appears when you go to buy one.

   23. BSBoyan Slat31:22

       Okay. Well, didn't know that.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:24

       So we can make carbon diamonds, bro.

   25. BSBoyan Slat31:27

       And actually, plastic, again, is carbon chains.

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:31

       Makes diamonds? Oh, that's right. You could ... (gasps)

   27. BSBoyan Slat31:32

       So we could even make diamonds out of ocean plastic.

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       Whoa, that would be the ultimate green diamond. Imagine like, if you were like a really, um, ecologically-minded rapper. You could wear, all, all your ice could come from the ocean.

   29. BSBoyan Slat31:45

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:45

       Let everybody know.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Uh, yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      if you take time off?

   2. BSBoyan Slat45:02

      Uh, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      Yeah?

   4. BSBoyan Slat45:03

      Uh, a bit, uh, yeah. Uh, so I usually ... I, I feel that with, um, a, a lot of my ... That's probably the case for everyone, that a lot of my strengths are at the same time also my weaknesses. So, you know, I think I'm pretty creative, so it's good, but at the same time, it means that, um, you know, it ... I, I, I really have to force myself to not be distracted by new ideas. Um, I, I think I'm, um, you know, have a good work ethic, but the, you know, the, the downside is that it's also very hard to, um, you know, slow down. And I do realize that, um, you know, taking, taking breaks, uh, it, it is ... E- eventually, it is better. It does ... You know, the best ideas that I've had were during, were during times off, really. Like, even the ocean cleanup idea was ... I was 16, w- was scuba diving in Greece, saw more plastic than fish. Yeah, that was during, during a, a break. So, so I, I should probably take a few days off.

   5. JRJoe Rogan46:05

      Yeah, man.

   6. BSBoyan Slat46:06

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan46:06

      Just go l- l- l- you know, go somewhere where you can just take a few naps, just relax, recharge, you know?

   8. BSBoyan Slat46:14

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan46:14

      Get your system back online perfectly.

   10. BSBoyan Slat46:17

       Yeah. Though I, I think one side note to make is that, you know, with everything that I've ever done in my life, I've always been very, um, obsessed about it. And I think when, you know, it, it's something that you cannot really stop thinking about it, it's ... It do- ... It never really feels like work either. So it's, um, I-

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:41

       A calling?

   12. BSBoyan Slat46:42

       Yeah. Well, yeah. I just wouldn't im- be able to imagine just having a normal job doing something you're not passionate about. It's, um ... So, so I, you know, I, I, I never really ... Uh, uh, how, how miserable would it be to just be in an office and have to stare at the clock waiting for 6:00 PM till you can go home?

   13. JRJoe Rogan47:04

       Right.

   14. BSBoyan Slat47:05

       That must be ... That's, like, probably my biggest nightmare.

   15. JRJoe Rogan47:08

       For a lot of people, it's their life, yeah.

   16. BSBoyan Slat47:10

       Well, yeah. I, I don't mean to offend, (laughs) offend anyone here, but, uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan47:14

       Look at you being nice again.

   18. BSBoyan Slat47:15

       Yeah. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan47:15

       Go in your tracks. (laughs)

   20. BSBoyan Slat47:17

       (laughs) But it ... Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan47:19

       No, I agree with you.

   22. BSBoyan Slat47:20

       You know, it's-

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:20

       I, I understand exactly what you're saying, and-

   24. BSBoyan Slat47:21

       And a l- uh, a lot of people don't realize that the biggest asset they have in their life is, is their time.

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:27

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BSBoyan Slat47:27

       And to, to spend that, that wisely. You have this, this 80,000 hours of ... Which I believe is, like, you know, 40, 40 years, 40 hours a week, s- turns out to ... That's 80,000 hours that you can use for anything. And, um, yeah, and I do believe that, uh, people often have a lot more potential than, than what they, you know, turn out to be doing if they, um, if they were to realize how valuable that time is. Um, you know, and sort of the classic model also for more, more wealthy people is to, to work very hard and then to kind of donate here and there. But probably you could be a lot more effective if you were to just use your brain, use your time directly on, um, you know, working something that, that matters.

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:21

       Well, I think what you just said is, like, legitimate inspiration talk. You know, there's a lot of, uh, people that-

   28. BSBoyan Slat48:28

       Should I write a book?

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:29

       Y- you should.

   30. BSBoyan Slat48:30

       (laughs)
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   That's foolish. …

   1. BSBoyan Slat1:00:00

      if you were to kind of pose the opposite question and say, "Okay, um, so if I were to go to the ocean right now and just dump the s- equivalent amount of plastic that we were to take out, would dump it into the ocean, uh, would you, would you think that's a good plan?" And then, well, probably the answer is, is, is, "No." So, so I think there's, there's a bit of this, um, you know ... of course, of course what we're doing, it's new. There are risks involved, but as long as we, um, you know, map them well, we take things step by step, I think they're manageable, and they're definitely not risks, uh, or reasons to, to not do it, because of course the baseline is that there is already doing, uh, uh, a lot of harm being done by, uh, the status quo. So, so I think that's one argument behind people's opposition. Um, there's also a bit of, um, zero ... what, what do you call? Zero-sum game bias, where people are saying, "Well, we shouldn't do this because the resources would be better spent elsewhere." Saw a, um, an, an op-ed in, uh, Wired few weeks ago where people were saying, well ... or, uh, just one person actually, was, was writing where this person said, you know, "You shouldn't, um, worry about the plastic pollution issue. You shouldn't do anything about it, because climate change is the biggest issue, and all our attention should go there. Plastic pollution's just a distraction." And-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

      That's foolish.

   3. BSBoyan Slat1:01:22

      Well, yeah, I think, you know, there's seven and a half billion peoples in the world, and, um, we can do more than one thing at the same time, I think, so-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

      Yeah, I mean, w- should you not wash your dishes because your carpet is dirty? I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Both of them are a problem.

   5. BSBoyan Slat1:01:35

      Oh.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

      Do ... Clean both of them. This, this idea that you should only think about climate change, it's like, oh, don't think about the giant Pacific garbage patch that's twice as big as Texas.

   7. BSBoyan Slat1:01:43

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:43

      Are you fucking serious?

   9. BSBoyan Slat1:01:45

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:45

       It's a dumb argument. Both of them are important. To think about both of them are important. But ...... a part of writing an article today is writing something that people will get upset about. That's part of it, is, like, generating outrage.

   11. BSBoyan Slat1:01:55

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

       Get, j- clickbait stuff. Having controversial opinions. Being a contrarian. All those things are profitable today.

   13. BSBoyan Slat1:02:01

       Sure.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:01

       I mean, there's a giant part of why people write articles. They don't write articles-

   15. BSBoyan Slat1:02:05

       It's all about the clicks.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:05

       They don't write articles to state an objective, well-thought-out perspective, always. Sometimes people do. But a lot of times people make some clickbait-y bullshit, and they kind of twist a story and qu- twist an idea of who you are-

   17. BSBoyan Slat1:02:19

       Hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:19

       ... twist it to sort of make their narrative make ... more compelling, be more compelling, and-

   19. BSBoyan Slat1:02:24

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:24

       ... sell more, or click more and-

   21. BSBoyan Slat1:02:26

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:27

       ... get more ad sales.

   23. BSBoyan Slat1:02:28

       Yeah. I, I wonder whether that's in part behind sort of the growing tribalism and polarization that you see everywhere.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:36

       Social media.

   25. BSBoyan Slat1:02:37

       In politics, right?

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:37

       I mean, the, the, the fact that Facebook's algorithms in, in a sense support outrage. Right?

   27. BSBoyan Slat1:02:43

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:43

       Like these, these things are designed to support ... My friend, Ari Shaffir, tested this, and it's really interesting because he tested it to find out what did it, what does it actually support. What it actually supports is what you're interested in. If you're interested in being outraged, it'll show you the, things that outrage you.

   29. BSBoyan Slat1:02:56

       Mm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:57

       So he decided to just only YouTube-
6. 1:15:00 – 1:17:38

   It's cold outside and…

   1. BSBoyan Slat1:15:00

      So you either have something that's compatible with human nature, so it's like a, you know, like a, a big car with a V8 engine, uh, but that's not compatible with, with nature. Or, um, you have something that's compatible with nature, which is probably, you know, walking, but it's not really compatible with human nature because we're, you know, lazy and greedy.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:20

      It's cold outside and you gotta get somewhere-

   3. BSBoyan Slat1:15:22

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:22

      ... in a snowstorm.

   5. BSBoyan Slat1:15:23

      Exactly. So ideally, what we do is rather than trying to change humans, which I don't think is a very futile activity because there is such a thing as human nature. We have genes. We have this evolutionary history. Uh, rather than trying to change that, I think it's much more effective to change the, the technology around us that, um, you know, enables our, you know, our inner desires and behaviors to, um, be positive rather than, than negative.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:51

      I agree with you. I think it's gonna be difficult though to get that same sort of, uh, positive result, um, when it comes to our addiction to technology.

   7. BSBoyan Slat1:16:03

      Hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:16:03

      Our, uh, addiction to smartphones in particular. I mean, for a long time it was like televisions, right? Like people talked about how much kids watch TV.

   9. BSBoyan Slat1:16:11

      Right. Books.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:16:11

       Kids watch TV eight hours a day. It's so much.

   11. BSBoyan Slat1:16:14

       Yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:16:14

       It's so bad. You don't really hear that anymore.

   13. BSBoyan Slat1:16:17

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:17

       You hear about phones, and this is a sort of an undiscussed rapid shift in what we waste our time doing.

   15. BSBoyan Slat1:16:26

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:26

       And most of it is what you hear people talking about. And most of the use of these phones, I would, um, I'd be willing to bet a giant chunk of that is social media.

   17. BSBoyan Slat1:16:35

       Yes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:36

       Right?

   19. BSBoyan Slat1:16:37

       Yeah. And I, I, I suppose that's again this sort of infantile stage of that technology, I suppose, where-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:45

       Now we're infantile. It was adolescent before, now you're dropping it back. (laughs)

   21. BSBoyan Slat1:16:48

       Yeah. It's, it's going down. (laughs) So, uh-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:16:51

       I think you're right.

   23. BSBoyan Slat1:16:52

       Yeah. I mean, it's, it's again, probably we can engineer social media and, um, you know, our information technology to incentivize people to do good things. But indeed now, it's, it's probably, uh, incentivizing the, the use of scrolling through timelines because you watch more ads.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:12

       I also, I think it's our bodies and our minds and the way we view the world, it's ... We're not designed to live in this digital realm.

   25. BSBoyan Slat1:17:22

       Sure.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:23

       This is a completely new thing for the species.

   27. BSBoyan Slat1:17:25

       Hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:17:26

       And I think we don't really know how to handle the dopamine rush that we get-

   29. BSBoyan Slat1:17:29

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:17:29

       ... from clicking on Instagram and scrolling through your feeds and checking your DMs and reading your emails and constantly interacting with people and checking, "Did he text me back?"

Episode duration: 1:44:41