Joe Rogan Experience #1402 - Boyan Slat

Joe Rogan 0:00 ... two. What's up, fella? How are you? Good to see you again, man.

Boyan Slat 0:06 Likewise.

Joe Rogan 0:07 I've been reading that you are having some great success with your machine finally. It's, uh, everything's up and running. Last time we talked, you had yet to implement it actually out in the wild, and, uh, now you, e- explain to us what happened. You had some bumps in the beginning, right?

Boyan Slat 0:22 Yes. Yeah. So it's been quite a, quite a few years. Finally something's happening. Um, so we, uh, we launched our first ocean system from San Francisco in, uh, September of last year. And we, we took it out and roughly two months later we fi- we figured that, first of all, it wasn't catching plastic, so what we saw was that the system was moving at roughly the same speed as the plastic. So maybe just take one step back, the, the idea and how, how it works.

Joe Rogan 0:52 Sure. Yeah.

Boyan Slat 0:53 So, so of course, we have this, this great Pacific garbage patch between here and Hawaii, twice the size of Texas, 100 million kilos of plastic doesn't go away by itself. And the idea was to, to have this artificial coastline that is driven by the forces of the ocean. We, we put it in there, and the plastic naturally accumulates against it and kind of stays in there so we can then periodically get it out, because the, the, the, the, the big challenge is that although there's a lot of plastic, it's, it's spread out over this, this vast area. So we first have to concentrate it before we can take it out, because if you were to simply trawl the ocean for plastic with boats and nets, it would just take, um, you know, for- forever really. So, so the idea was to, to, to have those artificial coastlines. We deployed the first one, and then what we saw was that somehow the system was moving at the same speed as the plastic. So you can imagine if, if, you know, this is like a, your, your Pac-Man and this is your, your, you know, your, your catch and it's moving at the same speed, you know, it's not going in, um, and sometimes it did go in but it went out again.

Joe Rogan 1:56 We got a video of it, what it was doing.

Boyan Slat 1:58 Oh, that's great. Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 1:59 Yeah.

Boyan Slat 2:00 So this is the basic idea. Um, but it wasn't doing that. So, so, and then, you know, we thought, okay, that's, that's all right. We'll learn from it. We'll try and adjust the systems. And then literally, you know, exactly a year ago, uh, the system broke into two and, um, so we had the structural failure forcing us to tow the whole thing back to land and, uh, go back to the drawing board. So, so we didn't have the, the best start of this year.

Joe Rogan 2:26 How much time has been lost? Or how much time has been spent, I should say, um, in the beginning phase, the in- initial-

Boyan Slat 2:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:33 ... version that you launched-

Boyan Slat 2:34 Oh.

Joe Rogan 2:34 ... versus where you're at now?

Boyan Slat 2:36 So we've been going on at this for since 2013.

Joe Rogan 2:40 Oh, wow. Six years.

Boyan Slat 2:40 So after... Yeah. So basically after five years launching it and seeing it break into two, that was... wasn't the, the, the best start of the year I could, could have imagined. Um, but then, you know, went to the drawing board, um, and, you know, the team really took it well, they... And, you know, we took those lessons into account, adjusted the design and relaunched really just a few months later, so in June. And this time we made the system a bit- a bit more modular so we could try different things to try and, uh, adjust the speed, make it go faster, make it go slower. And then what we figured was, well, the system isn't going fast enough. What if we actually turn the problem into a solution? What if we turn it around and actually slow it down so that it goes slower than the plastic? And then what we figured, um, that, that, that actually works. And, uh, in October we announced that we're actually catching plastic and really just last week the first two shipping containers full, full of plastic were, uh, were landed in port.

Joe Rogan 3:36 Wow, so it's really recently up and running-

Boyan Slat 3:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 3:39 ... the way you expected it.

Boyan Slat 3:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:41 Now how long does it take to accumulate two shipping containers full?

Boyan Slat 3:44 Oh, so that was roughly month, month and a half.

Joe Rogan 3:47 And how big are these shipping containers?

Boyan Slat 3:48 Uh, 20 foot, so probably two of these rooms.

Joe Rogan 3:51 So the only thing that's really stopping it from getting more is like the actual size of the net itself.

Boyan Slat 3:56 Yes. So, so that's the next step. So now that we kind of went from zero to one, we have the basic principle, uh, of catching plastic confirmed, uh, we now have to make it bigger before we can s- uh, build a whole fleet of them because, you know, we, we rec- we need maybe 50 or 100 of them to really clean up half this patch in five years. That's, that's the objective.

Joe Rogan 4:16 Half the whole patch in five years, that's the real objective?

Boyan Slat 4:19 That's what we wanna do.

Joe Rogan 4:20 Wow, is that really possible?

Boyan Slat 4:22 If you have enough systems, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:23 That's incredible. Now where are you at in terms of like trying to get these systems made and implemented?

Boyan Slat 4:30 Um, so, so the, um, so now we just finished this, this first step with, um, the system number one, that's how we called it. And the next step is to develop what we call system two which is indeed going to be a bigger version and, um, it, the idea is to minimize the amount of vessel use that you need for it. So that comes... Because boats are really fucking expensive. Um, you know, the, the boat that we have costs roughly 15,000 euros per day to keep running.

Joe Rogan 4:58 Wow.

Boyan Slat 4:59 That's just one boat. So boats, you don't want boats to, you know...

Joe Rogan 5:02 Would you anticipate that it ever gets to a point where the amount of money that you can generate from the actual resource of physical plastic can actually pay for the exp- the whole experiment?

Boyan Slat 5:13 I mean, I hope so. That's, uh, what we want to trial next year with, uh, by making products from the catch that we-

Joe Rogan 5:21 Mm-hmm.

Boyan Slat 5:21 ... that we make, and, you know, the material itself hardly has any value. It's, it's really the, the story to it and she-

Joe Rogan 5:27 You should make straws-

Boyan Slat 5:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:29 ... so people don't feel guilty.

Boyan Slat 5:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:31 They'll go, "Oh, it's a recycled straw."

Boyan Slat 5:33 Yeah, yeah. They'll throw them in the ocean again. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:36 No, what, uh... Yeah, that's a terrible idea. But what, what-

Boyan Slat 5:38 I mean, it would be a very sustainable business model, just keeps going.

Joe Rogan 5:41 Yeah, it just keeps going.

Boyan Slat 5:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:42 What is the, um, what are the products that you're thinking about?

Boyan Slat 5:46 ... ah, well, we have-

Joe Rogan 5:47 ... creating?

Boyan Slat 5:47 ... a few ideas. We, so it's still kind of under development, so I think in September we should be ready to launch the first one. But I think it's going to be things that, that are durable, that don't end up in waste, that you actually ... that will retain their value, so can last for a very, very long time and, uh, that you actually want and ideally carry around so you can talk about with other people. And, um, actually now, so just last week, we, with the first plastic on shore, we said, "Okay, now we welcome our supporters to actually make..." Um, well, I shouldn't call it a reservation, but kind of, um, make a, make a down payment, um, so that, um, you can be first in line. So if people go to our website, they can actually put in the 50 bucks and get the right for the first ever products made from the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.

Joe Rogan 6:35 So you're just trying to figure out what products will have the most sustainability, what, what products people will keep for the longest?

Boyan Slat 6:41 Yeah. And things that people want, right?

Joe Rogan 6:43 Right.

Boyan Slat 6:43 You don't want some kind of gimmick that's just going to be this paperweight. Um-

Joe Rogan 6:47 Fli- flip-flops seem like an easy one, right?

Boyan Slat 6:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:50 Don't they? I mean, people love to buy flip-flops. If they bought flip-flops, especially people that are like, uh, sort of like outdoorsy type folks.

Boyan Slat 6:57 Sure.

Joe Rogan 6:58 Appreciate the beach.

Boyan Slat 6:59 I maybe have to write these things down. Um-

Joe Rogan 7:01 Flip-flops? That's a pretty easy one.

Boyan Slat 7:03 Any other ideas?

Joe Rogan 7:04 Um, what else, Jamie? (smacks lips) What else would be a good one? Belts. People like belts.

Boyan Slat 7:10 Or shoes. Any flip-flop and then or shoes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:12 Yeah. Shoes. Like, definitely some Yeezys. (laughs) Some, some dope recycled-

Boyan Slat 7:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:17 Yeah, some recycled sneakers. Like, what is foam, like the foam that they make running shoes out of? That's a very specific type of, uh-

Boyan Slat 7:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:24 That's not actual plastic, right? It's probably-

Boyan Slat 7:26 Well, I mean-

Joe Rogan 7:26 ... made out of something else.

Boyan Slat 7:27 It's a type of plastic.

Joe Rogan 7:28 Yeah.

Boyan Slat 7:28 Uh, we, we might be able to, to foam this material as well. I think we've-

Joe Rogan 7:31 Hmm.

Boyan Slat 7:31 ... done tests with that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:32 Oh, really?

Boyan Slat 7:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:33 Turn it into foam?

Boyan Slat 7:33 Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 7:34 Oh, through some sort of a process.

Boyan Slat 7:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:36 Yeah. I mean, you could make athletic shoes. That'd be easy, right? People, but they would, you'd have to have a way to make... to, like, incentivize people to recycle them. It would be so ironic if those fucking things wound up back in the ocean.

Boyan Slat 7:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:49 You know? There's got to be a way to do that. Just tell, you know, like, have, like, if you have your own company, like, drop-off points in cities where when they're done with their stuff, if it's broken down or it's old, they've used it, you could throw it into this bin and you, you will ensure that it gets converted back into raw materials and utilized again.

Boyan Slat 8:09 Right. Yeah. Circular economy.

Joe Rogan 8:11 Yeah.

Boyan Slat 8:11 So-

Joe Rogan 8:11 That'd be a great move if you... And people would do that if they, if you made it easy for them. You know, sort of like recycling bins. If you make it easy for them, they'll, they'll throw their bottle in there, you know.

Boyan Slat 8:21 Sure. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:21 So, um, you have these two cargo ships or these two cargo containers, uh, filled with this plastic stuff. Um, what do you do with it now?

Boyan Slat 8:32 Yeah. So, so now it's going to Europe, but fortunately, there isn't really any useful recycling infrastructure in the US. So, um, so we set up this, this, um, infrastructure in, in, in Europe to be able to first sort it and then shred it and then recycle it and then, um, make those first products out of them. So hopefully, um, and hopefully with that, then, you know, generate the, the cash needed to, to continue, uh, running the cleanup. And of course, now it's still small scale.

Joe Rogan 9:00 Right.

Boyan Slat 9:00 Eventually, we should have those number of shipping containers every, you know, every day probably.

Joe Rogan 9:06 So do you have, like, a group of people that's trying to come up with ideas of what to make out of the plastic?

Boyan Slat 9:09 Yeah, so a little team in, uh, inside The Ocean Cleanup working on that. And, um, yeah, so they... I, I think they say that by September they should be ready to, to launch the first product, so...

Joe Rogan 9:22 That's great, man. That's... The, the, the whole idea behind it is beautiful. Do... You have a river system too as well, right?

Boyan Slat 9:28 Yes. So, so that's the other thing, right? So on one hand, we need to, we need to clean up what's, what's already in the ocean, doesn't go away by itself, and, um, yeah, basically the, the only way to, to deal with that is to just get o- go out there and, and clean it up. Um, but of course, then there's this, this other side of the equation, which is there's still huge, huge amounts of plastic flowing into the ocean every day, mostly from countries in, um, you know, Central America, um, South- Southeast Asia, where people are kind of this... the stage of development or countries are, are at a stage of development where, where the people are wealthy enough to consume a lot of things that are wrapped in plastic, yet there isn't any waste infrastructure yet to take care of it. So you literally see people on, on scooters just, uh, drive, um, on the... to a bridge to dump their municipal waste into the river, because that's simply the easiest way to get rid of it. You know-

Joe Rogan 10:26 Wow.

Boyan Slat 10:26 ... to your point, you know, what's easiest people will do. And, uh, so it's not really that people, you know, don't care there or that they, um, are less civilized or something, but it's really a combination. There's a lot of people, and there's no infrastructure they c- that they can make use of. So, so then back in 2015, we were like, "Okay, maybe at some point in time, this, this ocean thing will, will work out. Who knows?" But then we're stuck with this problem that there's still so much plastic flowing in that we would just have to keep going forever. And, and that would just be, you know, not, not very motivating. And we want to be this project with a beginning and an end. So, so we're like, "Okay, so where's the plastic coming from?" And then we figured, you know, probably rivers. Rivers are like these, these arteries that carry the trash from, from land to sea, because when it rains, plastic washes from street to creek to river to ocean. And, um, but then we, we found out that there is 100,000 rivers in the world. So that's kind of a, a, a big amount if you want to do something about it. So, um, so we started doing measurements in rivers, and then what we found was that just 1% of rivers are responsible for 80% of the, of the pollution. So really just a very tiny amount of rivers, if you were to, to tackle those, could really address the, the majority of, of the plastic going into the ocean. And it's, it's mostly, like, these relatively small rivers in, um, in, in capital cities like Manila, like Jakarta, like Kuala Lumpur. We have, uh, very high density of people, uh, near the coast. That's where most of the leakage, most of the emissions occurs. So-So since 2015, w- uh, we've been, kind of as a secret side project, been working on, um, seeing what ... Can we actually develop something to, to intercept the plastic in, in those rivers? And, uh, we just launched it month ago. We call it the Interceptor. And it's this, um, yeah, because it's this scalable, um, system that, that's almost like plug and play. So you bring it to a river and, um, you install it, and it, and it just works. It's fully autonomous, solar powered.

Joe Rogan 12:38 So this is all real, the real plastic that's being pulled out of this river-

Boyan Slat 12:42 Yeah. Th-

Joe Rogan 12:42 ... from, from your machine?

Boyan Slat 12:43 Yeah. So this was the-

Joe Rogan 12:44 That's incredible.

Boyan Slat 12:44 This was the prototype. Um, so this was in-

Joe Rogan 12:46 Dude, that's amazing.

Boyan Slat 12:47 This was in, uh, Jakarta.

Joe Rogan 12:49 For people that are just listening, we're looking at this thing pull enormous amounts of plastic out of this river, and it's also doing so and, and they're, they're stacking it into these bags. It's, it's a large physical quantity of stuff.

Boyan Slat 13:02 Oh, yeah. And then maybe you can actually pull up the video of Interceptor 2 in, in Malaysia. So we already have two of them in, uh, in real life as we speak. And-

Joe Rogan 13:10 How does it avoid doing anything with fish? How do you avoid, um, capture? Acc- accidentally... Oh my God. Is that real? That, that-

Boyan Slat 13:18 Yeah. So this is, this is the Klang River in Kuala Lumpur, and it's-

Joe Rogan 13:22 Oh my God.

Boyan Slat 13:22 ... according to our model, it's like the fifth most polluting river in the world. So 1% of all plastic, uh, going into the world's oceans is coming from that one river. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 13:30 This is unbelievable how polluted this is.

Boyan Slat 13:33 It's-

Joe Rogan 13:33 This is crazy.

Boyan Slat 13:34 It's 10 million kilos per year, roughly. So ...

Joe Rogan 13:37 Just, just looking at it, it looks like a wasteland. That's so sad.

Boyan Slat 13:41 Yeah. So, um, so then we, um, so, so we now have four Interceptors. Two of them have already been deployed. So here, here's the one, uh, going to, um, to the, to this Klang River. And kind of wanted to make it look like a, like a spaceship, um, just so people would like it. And so it has this barrier that, that concentrates the plastic to the mouth of the Interceptor, where you have a conveyor belt that then scoops it out of the water. Uh, again, fully solar and battery powered, and then deposits it onto this moving shuttle, um, conveyor, which then distributes it across these, uh, big dumpsters. Can hold roughly 50 cubic meters of trash. And, um, yeah, it, it just works by itself. So it's, um ... That's what it does.

Joe Rogan 14:28 How much... This, that's an insane amount of garbage that you're pulling out of there. You, when you look at it visi- visually, folks, you can watch the video. What is the name of this video, Jamie? So people can find it. Rivers Interceptor 002 Cleaning in Malaysia is the title of the YouTube video. It's crazy. Now ... And you're not catching any fish in this?

Boyan Slat 14:48 Oh, yeah. So, uh, so because this, this barrier is non-permeable, the current just flows underneath it. Um, basically the, the sea life can just pass it, actually. (laughs) At one point, we had this giant lizard, which was probably two meters. We should probably post that photo. It was kind of climbing onto the barrier and then it just swam around it. So, um, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:09 Two meters? Really?

Boyan Slat 15:11 Yeah. Or one and a half. Like, it was-

Joe Rogan 15:13 What kind of lizard is that?

Boyan Slat 15:14 Uh, I don't th- I don't know the name. But it, it was-

Joe Rogan 15:18 Some kind of monitor or something?

Boyan Slat 15:19 Monitor. That's-

Joe Rogan 15:20 Yeah.

Boyan Slat 15:20 You're right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:21 Yeah. Do you have a image? Where is that? Do you see a f- an image of that? No?

Boyan Slat 15:26 I'll post it next week.

Joe Rogan 15:27 Oh, you haven't posted it before?

Boyan Slat 15:28 No, no.

Joe Rogan 15:29 Oh, okay. He was looking for it.

Boyan Slat 15:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:30 I thought you were saying it was out there. Um, so it's safe for fish. Um, what about the, the stuff that doesn't float on the very surface?

Boyan Slat 15:38 Right. So the, the system goes down one meter, and what we measured is that really almost all the plastic is in that top layer.

Joe Rogan 15:46 Okay.

Boyan Slat 15:46 So sure, you know, it won't be 100% efficient, but I think it's, it's really about having this pragmatic thing that catches most of it.

Joe Rogan 15:54 And most importantly, leaves wildlife alone, 'cause everything else can just swim underneath that.

Boyan Slat 15:58 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 15:59 Yeah. That's m-

Boyan Slat 15:59 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 15:59 That's great. Um, and so this plan that you had, uh, when, you know, it's been six years running.

Boyan Slat 16:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:08 Uh, how much of your daily time is devoted to this?

Boyan Slat 16:13 Oh, I don't think there's much, much free time at all. (laughs) So I guess for the past year, I've na- I've not had a single free day. Uh, so-

Joe Rogan 16:24 Not a single?

Boyan Slat 16:25 Yeah. Just 9:00 AM to usually, you know, 9:00 PM in the office. Just it's been, uh, busy. But I think it was, uh, it was worth it, uh, looking where we were beginning of the year to where we're now. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:40 Well, now that you've actually pulled these cargo containers filled with plastic out of the ocean, that must give you an extreme feeling of satisfaction, right? That you've, you've actually made it work. Like you-

Boyan Slat 16:51 So-

Joe Rogan 16:51 It's, it's moving now.

Boyan Slat 16:53 So I was, I was kind of hoping for that feeling, but then when you get to that point, you're like, "Okay," but there's still, you can really only see the amount of work that's still ahead of you. So, so it's actually really hard to kind of enjoy successes in, in a way.

Joe Rogan 17:09 Mm-hmm.

Boyan Slat 17:10 Um, I should probably get better at that.

Joe Rogan 17:12 It's hard ... Well, particularly what you're doing, you have a monumental task in front of you. And what you're doing is rightly being applauded by so many people, but I don't know how many people are actually helping you.

Boyan Slat 17:22 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:22 You, you have a crazy thing that you're doing. You're trying to pull the plastic out of the ocean. When people find out about the Great Pacific garbage patch, they, they, they get panicky. They're like, "What? How long has this been going on? How do I, how do I not know about this?"

Boyan Slat 17:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:34 'Cause so few people ... I mean, I would think like maybe 40% of the population understands there's a gigantic patch-

Boyan Slat 17:40 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:40 ... of garbage in the middle of the ocean.

Boyan Slat 17:41 And it was discovered 20 years ago.

Joe Rogan 17:43 Yeah.

Boyan Slat 17:43 Exactly 20 years ago, and still-

Joe Rogan 17:45 That's crazy.

Boyan Slat 17:45 Still it's there, just been growing.

Joe Rogan 17:47 So 1998, no one had a goddamn clue.

Boyan Slat 17:49 Nope.

Joe Rogan 17:50 And then they went, "Wait, hey, what? What's going on here?"

Boyan Slat 17:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:53 "What is all this garbage?" And it keeps getting bigger and bigger, right?

Boyan Slat 17:56 Yeah. It's actually a g- quite a good story. There's this, um, this sailor called Charles Moore, who was, um, participating in a sail race between Hawaii and California. And, um, while others would go further north, he thought, "Well, let's try and, uh, cut off this, this piece." And then he was a-... looking at the water and he just, just saw all that, all that trash. And, um, then he went back, he was shocked about it and then, um, he decided to, to put, uh, take some measurements, publish the results, and that kind of popularized that whole concept of, of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.

Joe Rogan 18:29 Mm. It's, it's a weird thing to see when you see drones flying over it and you see the footage of it. And, and it's also, it's, it's a lot, a lot of it is a lot smaller than people think of it.

Boyan Slat 18:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:39 ... 'cause it's broken down by the ocean, right?

Boyan Slat 18:42 Yeah, so that's, that's what happens over time is that this, these larger objects have basically enters the, the ocean, uh, due to the, the working of the waves, as well as the sun, breaks down into these smaller and smaller pieces, which is actually not really a good thing, because these smaller pieces are, um, then easier to ingest for, for fish and other wildlife. So, um, so the smaller it gets, in a way, the, the more harmful it, it gets as well. And, uh, fortunately what we see is that still 92% of the plastic is still, uh, non-microplastic, so big stuff. But, of course, if we don't clean it up over the next few decades, all of that big stuff will also become microplastics and then we're in a much worse state.

Joe Rogan 19:23 Is the, uh, cleanup of micros- those microplastics possible or is it just something that needs to be sort of rethought out?

Boyan Slat 19:30 Well, so, uh, that was actually one of the positive surprises that we, that we had this year is that the, the cleanup system in, in the patch wasn't just catching plastic, not just the big stuff, it was also catching most of the microplastics.

Joe Rogan 19:43 Ah.

Boyan Slat 19:43 So down to one millimeter-

Joe Rogan 19:45 'Cause it all gets, like, clogged up with all the other stuff? Is that what it is?

Boyan Slat 19:48 Uh, we're not s- exactly sure how it was able to do that, but, uh, we just saw huge amounts of those, those microplastics in, in the system. It probably has to do something with the, uh, radiation of the waves. So you have the, that big pipe that keeps the system together and because waves are kind of crashing against it, it reflects waves as well. And almost like a lens, it was concentrating those microplastics into one patch in the middle of the system, which-

Joe Rogan 20:16 Hmm.

Boyan Slat 20:16 ... uh, so it was kind of this holding on into, into, into the system. So that was, so that's, uh, that was really, um, we weren't expecting to collect microplastics, but there we were.

Joe Rogan 20:25 That's pretty cool. Um, so now where are you at in terms of trying to expand it to a point where you could, you know, really get this goal of half of the plastic of the ocean in five years?

Boyan Slat 20:39 Yeah, so, so it, it would probably be easier if we had one goal, but we now set two goals for ourselves. One is the 50% in five year for the, for the patch, but the other one is that we want to have interceptors, um, into the 1,000 most polluting rivers, the ones that do the 80%, in, um, in the next five years. So we'll be, we'll be pretty busy. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:02 Really, really busy.

Boyan Slat 21:04 Yes, so-

Joe Rogan 21:04 As if you're not busy enough.

Boyan Slat 21:05 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:06 How many people are working for your, in- in your organization?

Boyan Slat 21:09 Uh, now about 100 and, uh, I think really team has been as now better than it's ever been. So fortunately there is, there is definitely a lot of help. Uh, but, um, but we're still recruiting, uh, quite, I think another 20, 30 people coming up here. So, um, s- so definitely there is a lot of work to do. And...

Joe Rogan 21:30 What has this ride been like for, for you from being this, like, really young guy when you figured this out? Like, how old were you when you came up with the idea?

Boyan Slat 21:37 Um, the first idea is when I was 16, but really founded the organization when I was 18.

Joe Rogan 21:42 Yeah. So that's really young. 18 to where you are now, just being constantly involved in this process, what has that been like for you?

Boyan Slat 21:50 Uh, educational, I would say. Um, so really when I started and when I look back at when I started, I, I really didn't have a bloody clue what I was doing. And I suppose that was a good thing because if I would have known how complicated and how big it would have to become in order to actually take some plastic out of the ocean, um, I, I probably wouldn't have started it. It was just too big. And remember doing the, um, giving my first presentation back in 2012 and somebody approached me and they said, "Okay, it's a great idea. Uh, it's going to cost, uh, like, tens of millions of dollars and you're going to need a team of maybe 100 people to, to, to get this to a point that it could actually work." And I thought this guy was crazy. Like, "No way you can..." So that's why I (laughs) started a, a $2 million crowdfunding campaign to, to get it started. And, um, yeah, he was, um, closer to the truth than I could have ever imagined.

Joe Rogan 22:51 When you, when you think about the amount of time that you're investing in this, do y- how do you see yourself ever getting off this ride? Is this what you want to do for the rest of your life?

Boyan Slat 23:00 No. So, uh, I, I do, I, I simply want to solve problems and I think this is kind of a good starter problem. It's, uh, I, I think it's very feasible to actually solve it. Uh-

Joe Rogan 23:15 It's, by the way, hilarious that you're talking about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch as a starter problem. (laughs)

Boyan Slat 23:22 (laughs) Oh, well.

Joe Rogan 23:22 What kind of ambition do you have, dude? (laughs)

Boyan Slat 23:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:25 That's one of the most perplexing problems with, uh, garbage and waste today.

Boyan Slat 23:31 Yeah, but I, I do think it's, it's solvable and it's, um, it's-

Joe Rogan 23:35 I think it is too, according to you-

Boyan Slat 23:37 And that you-

Joe Rogan 23:37 ... and what you're saying, but to call it a starter problem is hilarious.

Boyan Slat 23:40 (laughs) Well, yeah. And, uh, and, I mean, I think this was a, the exciting thing for me is that it's, I can pick this problem as, as the first one because I believed it would not just be solvable, but it's solvable by a relatively small group of passionate people. And, um, yeah, so of course, what I hope is that with The OceanCleanup, we can kind of create this blueprint of how you solve a problem and how you, um, how you make civilization a, a bit more, uh, sustainable so that hopefully with that blueprint, we can, um, not only solve more other problems in the future, but also inspire others to, to do the same thing.

Joe Rogan 24:18 Well, that, that's a beautiful sentiment. And do you have any other things that you want to try to solve once you've sort of, uh, stepped away from this?

Boyan Slat 24:26 Hmm. Yeah, um, so I, I really...... and I, there's definitely not going to be a shortage of ideas. Um, so I keep this little booklet and it's kind of overflowing, but what, what I realized is to, yeah, to be s-successful with the clean-up, I, I really need razor-sharp focus and I can only do one thing at the same time.

Joe Rogan 24:50 Right.

Boyan Slat 24:50 And, uh, like, ideas are like viruses and when they enter your mind, it kind of expands and, uh, evolves and it's really quite dangerous, actually, to have new ideas. There was... I forgot who said that, but, um, somebody who recently, I heard saying, uh, the, the best thing you can do is having one great idea and then never having any other ideas in the rest of your life.

Joe Rogan 25:15 (laughs)

Boyan Slat 25:15 So, just because you have to be-

Joe Rogan 25:17 Your resources.

Boyan Slat 25:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:19 Yeah.

Boyan Slat 25:19 To, to achieve something, you need full focus. Um, I think it was Stewart Brand, by the way.

Joe Rogan 25:24 It's a good thing to say. It's, it's accurate. What do you, what do you think though about... What I was gonna get at was, do you, uh, ever conceive a possibility of coming up with something that removes carbon from the atmosphere? That's a giant issue with us, right?

Boyan Slat 25:36 Right. Um-

Joe Rogan 25:37 Carbon emissions.

Boyan Slat 25:38 So, definitely, I, I believe negative emissions, what, what I think you, you, you refer to them, um, will be required to make the, the goals to kind of keep the, you know, warming in, in, in check. Um, it's... However, it's a much more difficult problem, because if you think of the ocean, it's, it's basically a, a two-dimensional problem. It's plastic on the surface and fortunately it's not even the whole ocean. It's, it's kind of concentrating in these accumulation zones. So the garbage patch, although it's twice the size of Texas, it's still, you know, 1.6 million square kilometers, while the ocean is something like 300 million square kilometers off the top of my head. So it's really just, maybe less than a percent of the ocean which needs to be cleaned and it's a... Again, it's a two-dimensional problem. While the atmosphere is, is three-dimensional, so it's just this, this one-dimensional increase is just... Yeah, it's just a, a huge, huge challenge. So I, I do think it needs to be tackled and it's definitely an exciting problem to think about. Um, I, I, I do think that's definitely... That's not a good starter problem to, to work on.

Joe Rogan 26:53 No. Um, wasn't there something, Jamie, that we had talked about where they had figured out a way to make these building-sized, essentially, vacuum cleaners they were gonna put in the center of, uh, certain cities? I believe it was in Asia. Maybe... Perhaps China-

Boyan Slat 27:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:06 ... they'd come up with this. And, and they... I don't know if they implemented it yet, but the idea was to have these enormous things in place that look like a skyscraper.

Boyan Slat 27:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:14 And really, it was just a, a huge vacuum cleaner for carbon.

Boyan Slat 27:17 Sure. I, I know there are a few companies that are working on it. I believe Carbon Engineering is one. There is also, um, there's also one out of Switzerland. Forgot the name. But, uh, so, so definitely good, smart people are, are working on that problem. Um, I'm not sure where they are in terms of, you know, the economics and ............................

Joe Rogan 27:36 Can this sit right here?

Boyan Slat 27:36 When he mentions Carbon Eng-Engineering is this one.

Joe Rogan 27:39 Okay, so that looks like-

Boyan Slat 27:41 Bill Gates Funded Fit.

Joe Rogan 27:42 ... giant fans. Like, a huge building filled with fans (laughs) .

Boyan Slat 27:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:46 "We believe humanity can solve climate change." Yikes. Imagine, like, we have filters for air the same way we have filters for water. Direct air capture technology. Carbon Engineering. Um, more than 10 years in the making that can capture carbon dioxide directly from the atmosphere. And look at that machine. Try to get a close-up on what that thing looks like. It looks like giant fucking washing machines.

Boyan Slat 28:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:09 Right? Like, it's washing the air. Doesn't it look like giant washing machines?

Boyan Slat 28:14 Yeah. It does.

Joe Rogan 28:14 Wow.

Boyan Slat 28:14 Def.

Joe Rogan 28:14 I mean, uh, it seems like it's feasible. It doesn't seem like it's something that's impossible.

Boyan Slat 28:19 Yeah. Uh, it's... It's... I think just it's the, it's the scalability that, that's the main challenge.

Joe Rogan 28:23 Right. Well, it's also funding. Like, if you drive over, uh, or fly over Manhattan, rather, and see the density of the structures and how many buildings are in there, you know that people can make some pretty insane shit.

Boyan Slat 28:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:33 Why couldn't they make some giant, insane vacuum cleaner for the air that's-

Boyan Slat 28:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:37 ... you know, as big as a city block?

Boyan Slat 28:38 Of course, a lot of it comes down to economics.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Mm-hmm.

Boyan Slat 28:41 Our, our system is not very good at valuing things that are long-term-

Joe Rogan 28:46 Right.

Boyan Slat 28:46 ... or directly benefit ourselves. Um, so, so, so definitely-

Joe Rogan 28:52 People tax it. They'll find... They'll find a way to make it profitable. Is this another one?

Boyan Slat 28:55 A rendering of what one would look like to capture one million tons of CO2 per year.

Joe Rogan 29:00 Whoa.

Boyan Slat 29:01 Mm-hmm. 'Cause it sounds like... It looks like it'd be noisy.

Joe Rogan 29:03 Oh, yeah. Probably annoying as fuck. Look at those fans.

Boyan Slat 29:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:06 It's so weird, though. Like, the whole array of fans. Like, okay, okay. That seems like a way to do it.

Boyan Slat 29:13 Looks like somebody built a giant computer and tried to cool it or something.

Joe Rogan 29:16 And then they'll have all this carbon. What the fuck did they do with that? Burn it? What do they do?

Boyan Slat 29:21 Yeah, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 29:22 What do you... You make shit out of it?

Boyan Slat 29:23 Uh...

Joe Rogan 29:23 What do you do? Make diamonds? Imagine that.

Boyan Slat 29:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:25 Diamonds are a girl's best friend. You make it out of the carbon that you pull out of the air.

Boyan Slat 29:28 It would be a good business model, right?

Joe Rogan 29:29 That would be a great business model.

Boyan Slat 29:30 Yep.

Joe Rogan 29:30 This would be like a green diamond, right? A diamond that's actually made... And it's all pressured by solar power. They use solar power to fucking smash it.

Boyan Slat 29:39 Flame-free.

29:39 Carbon fiber too?

29:40 Yeah.

29:40 Is that the same carbon fiber?

Joe Rogan 29:41 I don't know. Is it the same shit? Yeah, why not, right?

Boyan Slat 29:44 Out of carbon?

Joe Rogan 29:44 It must be. It's carbon, right?

Boyan Slat 29:46 Okay.

Joe Rogan 29:46 So, carbon is how they make dia-... Uh, it's coal, right, which is essentially carbon, right? Do they make diamonds from carbon or they make diamonds just from coal? What is coal? Coal is like burnt shit, right?

Boyan Slat 29:59 There's many, many forms in which carbon exists.

Joe Rogan 30:03 Yeah.

Boyan Slat 30:03 So-

Joe Rogan 30:04 I know they are-

Boyan Slat 30:05 ... different crystal structures.

Joe Rogan 30:05 They are doing that now, where they are making, um, commercially made diamonds. Diamonds are made of carbon, so they form as carbon atoms under a high temperature and spr- and pressure. They bond together to start growing crystals. That's why a diamond is such a hard material, because you have each carbon atom participating in four of these very strong covalent bonds that form between carbon atoms. I've never word that... Read that word out loud.

Boyan Slat 30:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:30 Covalent. Have you ever read that word out loud?

Boyan Slat 30:32 Co- covalent, I believe.

Joe Rogan 30:34 Is that how you say it?

Boyan Slat 30:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:35 ... I've never even seen that word. Uh, so these bonds that form between carbon atoms. So I know they're doing it now. They, they're m- they're making diamonds with certain machines.

Boyan Slat 30:44 High pressure, high heat?

Joe Rogan 30:45 Yeah. If they did, that would be, that would be hilarious. That would be a good thing too, because they would put a dent in the actual diamond market, which is this weird locked down fucking strange market. Because diamonds aren't nearly as valuable as they're set out to be. De Beers takes these diamonds and they stockpile them, and they only release a certain amount of them, and they keep the price very high.

Boyan Slat 31:05 Huh.

Joe Rogan 31:06 But it's all engineered.

Boyan Slat 31:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 31:07 Like the profit ... Like diamonds used to be far more rare than they are now.

Boyan Slat 31:11 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:11 But with, uh, the innovation and mining technology, and the ability to get to diamonds they couldn't get to before, they have a lot of diamonds.

Boyan Slat 31:18 Okay.

Joe Rogan 31:19 It's, it's not as valuable as it appears when you go to buy one.

Boyan Slat 31:22 Okay. Well, didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 31:24 So we can make carbon diamonds, bro.

Boyan Slat 31:27 And actually, plastic, again, is carbon chains.

Joe Rogan 31:31 Makes diamonds? Oh, that's right. You could ... (gasps)

Boyan Slat 31:32 So we could even make diamonds out of ocean plastic.

Joe Rogan 31:33 Whoa, that would be the ultimate green diamond. Imagine like, if you were like a really, um, ecologically-minded rapper. You could wear, all, all your ice could come from the ocean.

Boyan Slat 31:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:45 Let everybody know.

Boyan Slat 31:46 From trash to treasure.

Joe Rogan 31:47 Yes. There you go. Dude, that's the fucking, that's, that's the signature of the company. In quotes, "From trash to treasure."

Boyan Slat 31:54 You down to write these things down?

Joe Rogan 31:56 Bullion diamonds, how about that? I like it.

Boyan Slat 31:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:59 Dude, you could be the first, uh, guy to do this. Here we go.

Boyan Slat 32:03 ... plastic, this is an ocean diamond.

Joe Rogan 32:06 Whoa. Earth is crushing the ocean into salty diamonds. That's a dope-looking diamond too.

Boyan Slat 32:13 Hmm. What is that?

32:14 It's salt, I guess.

Joe Rogan 32:16 Uh, recreated salty diamond deposits in a high-pressure, high-temperature experiment suggesting that many of Earth's diamonds form when the m- mantle crushes ancient seabed minerals.

Boyan Slat 32:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:29 Oh. Isn't science and the Earth cool?

Boyan Slat 32:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:35 I mean, if you do get to do this ... Here's another problem, okay? Here's a, is a big one for the ocean. We are depleting it of seafood, of life.

Boyan Slat 32:42 Sure.

Joe Rogan 32:43 I mean, we, you know, I had, um ... How do you say his name again? Psajoyas, right? Louis Psajoyas, who, uh, directed The Cove on.

Boyan Slat 32:51 Yep.

Joe Rogan 32:51 And we were talking about, um, the deplenishing, deplenishing of the wildlife in the, in the ocean. And when you start looking at it on a grand scale, like how much fish they're pulling out of the oceans-

Boyan Slat 33:01 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:01 ... it's very sobering, you know?

Boyan Slat 33:03 Sure.

Joe Rogan 33:04 Maybe you can come up with a way to replenish-

Boyan Slat 33:07 Wow.

Joe Rogan 33:07 ... fish in the ocean, so we can continue eating sushi. What do you think?

Boyan Slat 33:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:11 (laughs)

Boyan Slat 33:13 So, so maybe could just zoom out a bit and, and, you know, so what is ... So because, of course, plastic pollution, you know, climate change, overfishing, I think is all part of one big problem to make civilization sustainable. And, um, the, the way I look at it is that, of course, over the past 200 years, humanity has made tremendous progress. So, of course, since agriculture re- revolution 10,000 years ago, um, humanity has been kind of stagnant, no progress, or just very, very slow progress, number of people, um, lifespan. It was all kind of flat, nothing really happened. And then since the, the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, and when we learnt t- how to utilize science and, and our knowledge, uh, collective knowledge, to, um, to turn that into progress. Um, basically, every possible metric for humanity has im- i- improved tremendously. And if you think of wealth, health, violence, education, uh, rights, all these things, and, and know you've had Steven Pinker on. He's, he's much more knowledgeable on that topic than, than I am. Um, yet, um, so, so truly at this point in time, uh, it has never been a, a better time to be alive for humans than, than today. Not saying that it can't get better, but we have made tremendous progress, uh, by, on one hand, um, im- imagining things that don't exist yet, so inventing technologies, and also inventing, uh, institutions. And on the other hand, uh, our human ability to, to collaborate effectively in large numbers, uh, which includes, you know, the, the corporation, which is a, a very effective way for, for people to, to work together. Now, all that progress has always ... has also had its negative side effects, which are most pronounced, of course, in the area of the environment, where, um, I think we, we put things into an environment that, that shouldn't belong there, and we take too much out of it than nature can replenish, which includes, you know, the fish, and on the other hand, you have the plastic going into the environment, et cetera. So, uh, so then the question is, well, how do we solve that? And of course, one hand is to say, okay, it's kind of the, the, um, yeah, the maybe Luddite is maybe a bit of a negative way to, to phrase it, but the sort of reactionary approach of saying, okay, we should consume less. Um, you know, corporations are bad, technology's bad, we should all get rid of all those things. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:47 And, um, I, I think, you know, the en- environment, the m- modern environmental movement, which is very kind of this romantic movement, has this image of back in the day, everything was great and we lived in harmony with nature, so let's get rid of all this modernity and try and return to that pure original state. What I, however, believe is that, first of all, that's, I don't think it's a very realistic thing. You know, people want to keep their iPhones and their cars, and you know, people want to move forward. Um, and at the same time, I don't think it's really the most effective way to, to solve these problems, because, you know, it would be like fighting a, a Leopard tank with, with bow and arrow. Um, you know, technology is nothing more than an, an, an enabler of human capabilities. It, it enhances our power. So why not use that power to also try and solve these, these, these, these problems as well? So rather than try and reject business, reject technology, I truly believe that we should embrace those-

Boyan Slat 36:46 ... those forces that make us human and, and has created this amazing world, to also try and solve these, these negative side effects as well. And that's why I believe, you know, the overconsump- overconsumption of fish is not going to end by people all becoming vegan, but rather through, um, you know, fake meat. Uh, I think that the, uh, transport emissions are not going to be solved by people not flying anymore or not going anywhere anymore. Realistically, people are going to fly more, so we better invent technologies that allow people to do that without harming the environment. And, um, you know, the same thing I think would be the case for, for, for plastic and, and really other energy uses as well.

Joe Rogan 37:31 No, I think that's a very wise way of looking at it, and it's a, it's a hopeful way of looking at it. And it's funny that today you kinda ha- even though you're, you're, you're dealing with, uh, statistics and factual information, like the fact that it is, uh, safer to live today.

Boyan Slat 37:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:48 There's less violent crime. It's easier to get by. There's more technology, more innovation. Medical technology's improved radically. All these things are true. But you still have to say, "It's not where we want it to be."

Boyan Slat 37:59 Right. Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:00 It's not w- I'm not saying that the world's p- we- you have to say that, even you.

Boyan Slat 38:03 Yep.

Joe Rogan 38:03 Like, even though you're ... I mean, look, it's, it's the worry about people barking at you. So worry about people, "It's still terrible in parts of the world."

Boyan Slat 38:11 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:11 "It's still terrible for people of, of color. It's still terrible for trans. It's still d-" I get it, I get it, I get it. No one's saying that there's not room for improvement. But you have to say that.

Boyan Slat 38:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:21 Like, you, even though you felt compelled, you're like, "It's still not perfect."

Boyan Slat 38:24 Yeah. And, uh, I, I wonder why it's so, so controversial. I, I think it's important to, um, learn from the things that we do well and then apply that to-

Joe Rogan 38:35 I don't think it is that controversial. I think it's a trick.

Boyan Slat 38:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:38 I think, uh, there's just a lot of people looking for every single opportunity to complain, even to someone like you-

Boyan Slat 38:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:44 ... who has, you know, objectively done nothing but good.

Boyan Slat 38:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:48 You say one thing, like, I mean, Steven Pinker took a ton of heat-

Boyan Slat 38:51 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:51 ... for saying that. And even though he's talking about actual scientific statistics, he's, uh, just ... he's not saying the world's perfect and everyone should shut up.

Boyan Slat 39:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:00 What he's saying is we should look at this, you know, from, uh, a bird's-eye view, look down and understand that al- although there's m- much work to be done, we're in a great place in comparison to rest of human history.

Boyan Slat 39:12 Sure. And it's, it's hopeful to realize that progress is possible.

Joe Rogan 39:15 Yes.

Boyan Slat 39:15 Just imagine that every ... There's something, um, that feels intuitively right, as if every step forward would also have to equal a step backward elsewhere.

Joe Rogan 39:26 Yes.

Boyan Slat 39:26 And I don't think that's, that's the case. There's plenty of things that you can invent that, um, that, that are, are not that. Like and, and we see it, for example, with, with carbon right now, that there's countries where, you know, like, like Sweden, GDP has grown a lot past 20 years, carbon emissions has gone down. So, um, they call that the, the decoupling. And I think what's really the, the main challenge in, in this century is to, um, you know, decouple, um, human progress from, uh, from those negative side effects. And I think the way to do that is not reactionary. It's really, again, um, through innovation and, um, through, through collaboration.

Joe Rogan 40:10 I, I agree with you and I think that a lot of times people just assume that this is, these are the consequences of innovation, that there's a pro and a con to everything, because there has been so many things, there have been so many things, uh, that are inventions that were, there are a pro and a con to it.

Boyan Slat 40:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:26 But that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be that way.

Boyan Slat 40:28 No. And, uh, even if, uh, things have a pro and a con, it doesn't mean the pro is as big as the con.

Joe Rogan 40:34 Right.

Boyan Slat 40:34 So, um, and i- if that would be the case, all the technology, e- every technology would be neutral, and it wouldn't ima- it wouldn't matter what you invent, uh, but i- i- it would mean that an atomic bomb is morally as neutral as an ocean cleanup system, which I just don't find plausible.

Joe Rogan 40:56 Right.

Boyan Slat 40:56 So I do believe that inventors, entrepreneurs, they put certain morality into their creations, into their technology. There is, um, you know, there is a certain use that you prescribe with your invention. I mean, you don't use nuclear bombs to, um, wash your car, right? I mean, you, you use it not for benign uses, unless maybe you want to terraform Mars, which, you know, some people pr- uh, propose to do with atomic bombs. I don't know if that's a good idea. Um, but, um, yeah, I, I don't think technology is neutral, that it, it has a mora- morality. So what that means is, uh, that as long as we consequent- uh, consistently develop net positive technologies, you know, eventually, you know, the world does get better and better. If, say, a technology is 60% goods and maybe has 40% downside, m, you know ... Okay. But then we can invent a solution for that 40%. And maybe that's, again, net positive, and you k- kind of get this, this cascade of, of, uh, ever-improving world.

Joe Rogan 42:02 No, I, I think what you're saying sounds beautiful. And if more people thought the way you're thinking, I think, uh, the world would be a better place. I, I like the, the positivity. I like the optimism in wha- what you're thinking, in terms, particularly in terms of what's, what's possible with innovation.

Boyan Slat 42:18 Yeah. Well, I, I just don't think that being against something is very productive.

Joe Rogan 42:26 Mm-hmm.

Boyan Slat 42:26 Um, I ... You know, it's ... It doesn't really move us forward.

Joe Rogan 42:32 Right.

Boyan Slat 42:32 So rather than, you know, protesting against the things that I don't agree with, and there's so many things that I don't agree with, um, but again, I don't think it's, it's very helpful. Rather than doing that, I'd much rather build towards a future that I, that I do agree with.

Joe Rogan 42:49 Listen, man. I think what you're saying is very, very logical. I wish more people thought like you.You're a great role model for a lot of, uh, kids to d- d- b- use your energy in a positive direction. You know, it can, it can be done.

Boyan Slat 43:03 Yeah. Um, sure. Uh, I mean, I think we agree with you, Joe. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:09 Yeah. Do you think that, um ... I mean, when, when you're looking at this, um, this possibility of getting 50% of the ocean's garbage out in five years, do you think that's realistic in terms of, like, uh, the resources that you have, th- the, the funding that you have, and all that stuff? And if not, how can people help? Is there, uh ... Do you have a website where people can, um-

Boyan Slat 43:30 Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 43:32 ... donate?

Boyan Slat 43:32 So definitely, you know, we don't yet have both, uh, you know, we, we don't have the technology ready yet to, to really clean up the patch. On the rivers is different story, we're really ready to scale. Um, but on the ocean, we, we still need some, you know, need some iteration. Um, and of course, uh, the funding isn't there yet. So of course, on our website, theoceancleanup.com, people can donate, people can also-

Joe Rogan 43:55 Oh, okay, cool. There it goes. Support the cleanup.

Boyan Slat 43:57 Yep.

Joe Rogan 43:58 Um, and so you have ... Is it, like, PayPal, or what is it?

Boyan Slat 44:02 Yeah, anything you want. And you can make, uh ... You can join the queue for, uh, for the products that-

Joe Rogan 44:08 That's excellent.

Boyan Slat 44:09 ... we're gonna be selling.

Joe Rogan 44:09 Beautiful. And so, th- th- th- and are you getting a lot of success with that? People are contributing?

Boyan Slat 44:15 So, um, definitely so far has been, uh, enough to keep the, keep the development going. So it hasn't really been the, the limiting factor, but of course, if we want to scale, we're going to need a lot more resources. So, so definitely a lot of help will be, uh, will be required there in the coming years.

Joe Rogan 44:34 It's amazing that this is taking you so long and that you've been working on it so hard that you, you have all this energy to be able to pursue something like this. I mean, uh, was there ever a time while you were doing this where you were like, "Jesus Christ, I don't know how l- how I'm gonna be able to do this"?

Boyan Slat 44:49 Um-

Joe Rogan 44:50 Is it sustainable, like this every day, no days off, constant?

Boyan Slat 44:54 (laughs) Yeah, so probably I should take a few days off-

Joe Rogan 44:56 Hell yeah.

Boyan Slat 44:57 ... out of the year. Yeah. This, this year has been tough.

Joe Rogan 44:59 Do you feel guilty if you take time off?

Boyan Slat 45:02 Uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:03 Yeah?

Boyan Slat 45:03 Uh, a bit, uh, yeah. Uh, so I usually ... I, I feel that with, um, a, a lot of my ... That's probably the case for everyone, that a lot of my strengths are at the same time also my weaknesses. So, you know, I think I'm pretty creative, so it's good, but at the same time, it means that, um, you know, it ... I, I, I really have to force myself to not be distracted by new ideas. Um, I, I think I'm, um, you know, have a good work ethic, but the, you know, the, the downside is that it's also very hard to, um, you know, slow down. And I do realize that, um, you know, taking, taking breaks, uh, it, it is ... E- eventually, it is better. It does ... You know, the best ideas that I've had were during, were during times off, really. Like, even the ocean cleanup idea was ... I was 16, w- was scuba diving in Greece, saw more plastic than fish. Yeah, that was during, during a, a break. So, so I, I should probably take a few days off.

Joe Rogan 46:05 Yeah, man.

Boyan Slat 46:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:06 Just go l- l- l- you know, go somewhere where you can just take a few naps, just relax, recharge, you know?

Boyan Slat 46:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:14 Get your system back online perfectly.

Boyan Slat 46:17 Yeah. Though I, I think one side note to make is that, you know, with everything that I've ever done in my life, I've always been very, um, obsessed about it. And I think when, you know, it, it's something that you cannot really stop thinking about it, it's ... It do- ... It never really feels like work either. So it's, um, I-

Joe Rogan 46:41 A calling?

Boyan Slat 46:42 Yeah. Well, yeah. I just wouldn't im- be able to imagine just having a normal job doing something you're not passionate about. It's, um ... So, so I, you know, I, I, I never really ... Uh, uh, how, how miserable would it be to just be in an office and have to stare at the clock waiting for 6:00 PM till you can go home?

Joe Rogan 47:04 Right.

Boyan Slat 47:05 That must be ... That's, like, probably my biggest nightmare.

Joe Rogan 47:08 For a lot of people, it's their life, yeah.

Boyan Slat 47:10 Well, yeah. I, I don't mean to offend, (laughs) offend anyone here, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 47:14 Look at you being nice again.

Boyan Slat 47:15 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:15 Go in your tracks. (laughs)

Boyan Slat 47:17 (laughs) But it ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:19 No, I agree with you.

Boyan Slat 47:20 You know, it's-

Joe Rogan 47:20 I, I understand exactly what you're saying, and-

Boyan Slat 47:21 And a l- uh, a lot of people don't realize that the biggest asset they have in their life is, is their time.

Joe Rogan 47:27 Mm-hmm.

Boyan Slat 47:27 And to, to spend that, that wisely. You have this, this 80,000 hours of ... Which I believe is, like, you know, 40, 40 years, 40 hours a week, s- turns out to ... That's 80,000 hours that you can use for anything. And, um, yeah, and I do believe that, uh, people often have a lot more potential than, than what they, you know, turn out to be doing if they, um, if they were to realize how valuable that time is. Um, you know, and sort of the classic model also for more, more wealthy people is to, to work very hard and then to kind of donate here and there. But probably you could be a lot more effective if you were to just use your brain, use your time directly on, um, you know, working something that, that matters.

Joe Rogan 48:21 Well, I think what you just said is, like, legitimate inspiration talk. You know, there's a lot of, uh, people that-

Boyan Slat 48:28 Should I write a book?

Joe Rogan 48:29 Y- you should.

Boyan Slat 48:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:30 Well, I mean, just a video I think is good enough, just a video of you explaining your philos- I mean, you have accomplished so much. And your idea, your ... Th- that you're doing is so noble and actually effective. There's something that people need to hear sometimes about, uh, different people's philosophies on how to spend their time and their energy.

Boyan Slat 48:47 Mm.

Joe Rogan 48:47 And your, your perception of instead of wasting it on other things, just concentrate on something that you think is gonna make an impact, something that you're drawn to, something that-

Boyan Slat 48:56 Mm.

Joe Rogan 48:57 And yeah, when you do that, then you have a cause and you have a thing that you're working towards. It's not just simply showing up and doing something that someone's paying you to do that you don't necessarily want to do, which is a lot of ... A trap. A lot of people find themselves in that trap and-

Boyan Slat 49:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:10 ... they need to hear people like you talk sometimes. That's, th- that's as inspirational as anyone who's, like, a professional inspirational or motivational speaker for a lot of folks.

Boyan Slat 49:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:20 Maybe more so 'cause you're actually doing something.

Boyan Slat 49:22 Yeah. Well, probably my, my words carry more credibility once the oceans are actually clean and ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:28 Yeah, it'll help. But just the fact you got-

Boyan Slat 49:30 I bet.

Joe Rogan 49:30 ... two cargo holds filled with, uh, two cargo containers, I mean, who the fuck has that? No one.

Boyan Slat 49:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:36 You know? Coming people have some bags.

Boyan Slat 49:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:39 You know?

Boyan Slat 49:39 And on, and on the rivers we, you know, have p- put that amount every day now, so.

Joe Rogan 49:43 Really?

Boyan Slat 49:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:44 Every day on the rivers?

Boyan Slat 49:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:45 Wow. Did the river... When you see that horrible pollution drifting downriver, when you see that stuff, does that feel almost like impossible to capture all of it, or, or pointless because people keep throwing it in there?

Boyan Slat 50:00 Well, of course, that's, that's the thing. So we don't position this, these interceptors as being ...

Joe Rogan 50:06 The solution.

Boyan Slat 50:07 The ultimate solution for the whole places.

Joe Rogan 50:08 Mm-hmm.

Boyan Slat 50:08 So, of course, eventually, you know, you have to make sure plastic doesn't end up in the ocean or in, in the rivers in the first place, right? So ... But, you know, I was standing ... So a few weeks ago, I was in, in, uh, Indonesia and Malaysia to see their machines and talk with, you know, government people there. And I was standing on the interceptor, and you see this constant literally torrent of, of plastic going into the interceptor, and, uh, fr- ... And I was looking upstream and I realized, well, there's, there's more than five million people living in the catchment area of this river, and they have limited infrastructure, uh, they consume so much, and just trying to imagine all that plastic not ending up in the river would, would ju- such a diffuse source, five million people, uh, was just so hard to imagine. And of course, that's where we have to go to, but, uh, realistically speaking, it's just going to take, um ... It's, it's going to take a while. It's going to take maybe two decades, three decades, something like that. So I think rather than kind of staring at kind of the perfect solution and, um, really just working on, on that, which of course is very important, I think we also need to be a bit more pragmatic and also realize, well, okay, may- may take 20, 30 years, let's at least make sure that during those 20, 30 years, we don't have 10 million kilos of plastic flowing out of this river into the ocean.

Joe Rogan 51:45 Right.

Boyan Slat 51:45 So ...

Joe Rogan 51:46 You'd have to have some sort of cooperation with the people that are doing that and chucking that plastic into the river, so how do you-

Boyan Slat 51:51 Yeah. So, so the-

Joe Rogan 51:52 Someone's gotta figure out a way to get to them.

Boyan Slat 51:54 So I, I do hope that the interceptors can have, you know, a, a positive influence upstream as well, so these-

Joe Rogan 52:01 Or people say, "Good, I don't have to worry about it. They got a thing now."

Boyan Slat 52:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:05 It's the best place to throw your plastic because they got a thing that sweeps it up.

Boyan Slat 52:08 (laughs) Guilt-free dumping, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:10 Oof.

Boyan Slat 52:12 No. (laughs) No, so I'd ... I, uh, that, that hazard is called the, uh, or, or that risk is called, uh, moral hazard.

Joe Rogan 52:18 Mm.

Boyan Slat 52:18 It's, um, it's a phrase from economics wherein, uh, in the insurance industry as kind of a thing where people make more damage once they are insured because they're-

Joe Rogan 52:28 Right.

Boyan Slat 52:29 ... less worried. Um, I don't buy it that much as an argument for, for, for the plastic problem because, you know, it's not like it's, um, it's a conscious cost-benefit analysis whether you're going to throw something on the street or not. It's more of a unconscious thing, you just, you know, do it, right? Or at least, I hope you don't, but some people do. And, and then, yeah, it's ... With that same logic, why ... Maybe municipalities should also stop sweeping the streets, and maybe we shouldn't even collect garbage at people's houses because, uh, it only incentivizes the creation of garbage. So, so I, I don't think that it's such a-

Joe Rogan 53:10 You don't believe that though, right?

Boyan Slat 53:10 No. Um, and then there's this other effect called the, the broken window effect, which, um, where ... I think it was back in the '60s in New York, what they found is that in streets and neighborhoods where, um, you have buildings that, um, show obvious sign of decay like, uh, broken win- bro- that's where the name comes from, broken windows or litter, that actually would incentivize other unlawful activities. So, um, the similar effect has been observed with li- like a park. If a park doesn't have any litter, people litter less than when there is litter on the ground. So, so rather I think it's the opposite. If you, if you truly believe that the ocean is going to be polluted forever and it doesn't really matter, it's already dirty, you know, I ... That's not really a strong motivation to, to not litter. But if you say, "Okay, well, ocean is clean now," um, they, they'll have effort for that. And, yeah, once, once it's clean, I think that would actually be a motivation to, to, to not litter.

Joe Rogan 54:14 I think you're 100% right. I think some of those, uh, videos where you see, uh, shorelines that are so thick, I, I don't know what part of the world it is, but that are so thick with plastic you can't even get into the water, like you can't wade out there and swim.

Boyan Slat 54:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:28 It's so, it's so disheartening and you, you wonder where the world will be if not for people like you that are tr- trying to come up with a solution, where the world will be in 50 years.

Boyan Slat 54:37 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:38 50 years ago this wasn't the case. Now it is. If you could see like a time lapse video of these oceans from like, go back to like 1900 to 2019, and then go back before 1900, th- is relatively unchanged for thousands of years, right?

Boyan Slat 54:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:53 And then all of a sudden this massive change very quickly with the industrial age.

Boyan Slat 54:58 Yeah. But again, I, I believe this is a, a transition phase. It's like our, you know, modern civilization being in its sort of teenage years, and um-

Joe Rogan 55:10 Yes.

Boyan Slat 55:10 We kind of have to grow out of it. And um ...

Joe Rogan 55:13 I couldn't agree more. I, I, I hope, I, I hope w- this worry that we all have will translate into improvement and progress.

Boyan Slat 55:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:22 And I, I would say the same thing that we're in some sort of adolescent stage of, of society and evolution, that we're in this weird sort of state where we're-... aware of how much we can change our environment, but also still contributing to the detriment of our environment in a non-sustainable way, and then eventually it's gonna have to come to a head. You know, when you see people screaming about climate change and all these different things, I mean, this is people realizing that this is ... there's a lot going on that n- maybe not everyone is completely and totally aware of. And, um, but I'm with you. Uh, I'm ... I think it's, i- it's good to be optimistic, it's healthier to be positive, and I think it is, it's logical that people will find a way out of this. I really do.

Boyan Slat 56:04 Yeah. Well, you know, I'm, I'm not sure whether, um, we'll be right. Uh, at least-

Joe Rogan 56:10 I'm not sure either.

Boyan Slat 56:11 ... I, I hope we are. The ... I think an- and, you know, I think eventually it's going to be fine. I- it, it's just a question of how long is it going to take, how much damage will have been done in that period. But realistically it's, it's the only way there is a chance that we figure this out, right? I mean-

Joe Rogan 56:29 Have you faced any opposition to this? Is there anybody that thinks this is a fruitless idea?

Boyan Slat 56:33 Yeah. Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:33 'Cause I know there were people that were actually ... I was very shocked. I read people that were actually happy that your project didn't work the first time.

Boyan Slat 56:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:40 I'm like, "What the fuck, man?"

Boyan Slat 56:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:42 There's people that ... I think it's a, a young thing. Like, 'cause you're this, uh, really hopeful, young, intelligent guy who comes up with this solution, and I think they're probably, "Oh, he thinks he's so fucking smart. Oh, fuck him, I hope it fails." And when it failed, people actually enjoyed it.

Boyan Slat 56:58 Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was-

Joe Rogan 57:00 Was that sh- did that hurt?

Boyan Slat 57:02 No. Um, so for me, uh, of c- so, yes, of course since the, uh, really since the beginning 2013 there have been people, um, you know, like, relatively small group of people, but there have been people that have been opposing it, and, um, most of them, ironically enough, are people that care about the ocean, because they don't feel it's the right way to, um, to, to tackle the issue. And, um ... but, so th- the way I deal with it is y- at least what I used to do in the beginning, now there're ... fortunately there aren't many new arguments anymore, but, um, just basically write them out, every single argument, rationally analyze them, you know. No emotions. Emotions only muddle your, your thinking i- in that way. And make a distinction, okay, is this something where this person has a point? If so, great, because, you know, rather have somebody else pointing it out to me than us having to learn it in the field and, you know, having a, having a unnecessary failure. Um, and if the person doesn't have a point and if it's just, uh, you know, assumption, or unfounded or whatever, um, you know, then it's very easy for me to just ignore it. And so ... And then the question is, well, what motivates people to be negative? And I, I think there's probably four reasons. First of all it's, it's, uh, you know, genuine skepticism whether it can be done, and I think that's, you know, that's healthy and I think we've proved most of those arguments wrong now, uh, but of course there's still, you know, the whole scale-up thing which we still have to do, so there's still a bit of that, but it's kind of morphing now to few other things. Um, I think one thing is, um, human, uh, risk perception, which i- is sometimes y- I think is a, it's a cause of, um, o- of, of some, uh, opposition, where, um, it, it, it's very, uh, easy for people to ignore the, the, the baseline when they look at risks. So, um, you know, you can, for example, say, "Okay, nuclear power, super risky. We, we shouldn't do that." But then if you compare it to the baseline of other sources of energy, that's actually probably the, the least risky, um, source of energy there is. Like, even solar energy is, causes more deaths per megawatt hour than, um, than, than nuclear power, because people fall off roofs. So, so it's, it's really ... So if you ignore the baseline, and if you say, "Okay, um, doing this cleanup, we shouldn't do it because there's all these potential risks, right? Of, um, you know, potentially there is some sea life that may be caught, potentially there are, uh, these moral hazards, uh, there's all these risks and, you know, basically best thing to do is not do it." What people then are ignoring is sort of the, the certain hazard of just hundreds of millions of kilos that, that ... of plastic that's already in the ocean, and if you were to kind of pose the opposite question and say, "Okay, um, so if I were to go to the ocean right now and just dump the s- equivalent amount of plastic that we were to take out, would dump it into the ocean, uh, would you, would you think that's a good plan?" And then, well, probably the answer is, is, is, "No." So, so I think there's, there's a bit of this, um, you know ... of course, of course what we're doing, it's new. There are risks involved, but as long as we, um, you know, map them well, we take things step by step, I think they're manageable, and they're definitely not risks, uh, or reasons to, to not do it, because of course the baseline is that there is already doing, uh, uh, a lot of harm being done by, uh, the status quo. So, so I think that's one argument behind people's opposition. Um, there's also a bit of, um, zero ... what, what do you call? Zero-sum game bias, where people are saying, "Well, we shouldn't do this because the resources would be better spent elsewhere." Saw a, um, an, an op-ed in, uh, Wired few weeks ago where people were saying, well ... or, uh, just one person actually, was, was writing where this person said, you know, "You shouldn't, um, worry about the plastic pollution issue. You shouldn't do anything about it, because climate change is the biggest issue, and all our attention should go there. Plastic pollution's just a distraction." And-

Joe Rogan 1:01:21 That's foolish.

Boyan Slat 1:01:22 Well, yeah, I think, you know, there's seven and a half billion peoples in the world, and, um, we can do more than one thing at the same time, I think, so-

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 Yeah, I mean, w- should you not wash your dishes because your carpet is dirty? I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Both of them are a problem.

Boyan Slat 1:01:35 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 Do ... Clean both of them. This, this idea that you should only think about climate change, it's like, oh, don't think about the giant Pacific garbage patch that's twice as big as Texas.

Boyan Slat 1:01:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 Are you fucking serious?

Boyan Slat 1:01:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 It's a dumb argument. Both of them are important. To think about both of them are important. But ...... a part of writing an article today is writing something that people will get upset about. That's part of it, is, like, generating outrage.

Boyan Slat 1:01:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 Get, j- clickbait stuff. Having controversial opinions. Being a contrarian. All those things are profitable today.

Boyan Slat 1:02:01 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 I mean, there's a giant part of why people write articles. They don't write articles-

Boyan Slat 1:02:05 It's all about the clicks.

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 They don't write articles to state an objective, well-thought-out perspective, always. Sometimes people do. But a lot of times people make some clickbait-y bullshit, and they kind of twist a story and qu- twist an idea of who you are-

Boyan Slat 1:02:19 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 ... twist it to sort of make their narrative make ... more compelling, be more compelling, and-

Boyan Slat 1:02:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 ... sell more, or click more and-

Boyan Slat 1:02:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:27 ... get more ad sales.

Boyan Slat 1:02:28 Yeah. I, I wonder whether that's in part behind sort of the growing tribalism and polarization that you see everywhere.

Joe Rogan 1:02:36 Social media.

Boyan Slat 1:02:37 In politics, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 I mean, the, the, the fact that Facebook's algorithms in, in a sense support outrage. Right?

Boyan Slat 1:02:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 Like these, these things are designed to support ... My friend, Ari Shaffir, tested this, and it's really interesting because he tested it to find out what did it, what does it actually support. What it actually supports is what you're interested in. If you're interested in being outraged, it'll show you the, things that outrage you.

Boyan Slat 1:02:56 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 So he decided to just only YouTube-

Boyan Slat 1:02:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 ... puppies.

Boyan Slat 1:03:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 And that's all YouTube would show him was puppies. He's like, "No, you assholes. This is what you're into. If you're into fucking getting mad about, uh, the border, and getting mad about the climate-"

Boyan Slat 1:03:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 "... and getting mad about abortion, and getting mad about whatever the fuck it is, that's what it'll show you, because that's what you're interested in."

Boyan Slat 1:03:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 You know, my YouTube f- feed is mostly muscle cars and fights.

Boyan Slat 1:03:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 Why? Because that's what I'm interested in.

Boyan Slat 1:03:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 You know, I'm i- j- that's, I, I ... You know, and occasionally science things.

Boyan Slat 1:03:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:27 But that's just because that's what you search for. That's ... It'll show you what you search for.

Boyan Slat 1:03:31 I'm sure you're somewhat happy that it shows you those things rather than-

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Yes.

Boyan Slat 1:03:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Sure. I don't think, I don't think it's as sinister as people want to say it is. I think the, the issue is human nature. We are, we are compelled to, uh, get upset about things, and I think a lot of it is people that feel disempowered in their own existence.

Boyan Slat 1:03:50 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 The people that you were talking about that are stuck in cubicles and that are staring at that clock waiting for the buzzer to ring so they can go home.

Boyan Slat 1:03:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 Those people are online. They're tweeting. They're taking a shit and tweeting, "Fuck this guy. This little kid thinks he's gonna fix this. Fucking eh, he ain't fixing shit." There's a lot of what's going on.

Boyan Slat 1:04:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 There's a lot of people that are upset because they're just ... It's fun to be upset when your life sucks. It's fun to shit on somebody.

Boyan Slat 1:04:11 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 It's fun to get mad about the, the border when ... You know, you don't live in fucking South Dakota, you're nowhere near the border.

Boyan Slat 1:04:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 What are you worried about? What you're worried about, you're just angry. People are just angry, you know? It's like these aren't logical discussions that people are having. They're shout-offs and-

Boyan Slat 1:04:27 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 ... and it's, it's a, a natural part of human nature to get upset about stuff and ... You know, and even someone who's doing something as beautiful as your perspective, and s- or, or your, your, uh, idea. Instead of just saying, "Oh, this, this guy is doing something amazing. We need someone like this who's just as innovative and just as inspired to try to tackle this climate issue. And we need more people like him. This is amazing." Instead of that, like, "You're spending your resources incorrectly."

Boyan Slat 1:04:54 Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I-

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 I got you, though. You're talking about it.

Boyan Slat 1:04:58 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 (laughs)

Boyan Slat 1:04:59 Sure. Um, and, yeah, I, I suppose it's, um, you know, from the perspective of the person who, who writes that it's, um-

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 He thinks he's got a point.

Boyan Slat 1:05:09 Yeah. And, um, so and that, and, and indeed if, if you're just, um, saying what everyone else says nobody would see your opinion.

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 Exactly.

Boyan Slat 1:05:18 Right. So-

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 That's a big part of it.

Boyan Slat 1:05:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Well, there's ... The journalists are fucked right now. And it's not their fault. It's just, uh, print journalism is almost on the way out in terms of, like, buying things-

Boyan Slat 1:05:29 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:29 ... and buying newspapers, and buying magazines. Their numbers are radically down.

Boyan Slat 1:05:33 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 So they resort to online things. Well, the on- ... In the online world you have so much competition. You have competition from a, a million different things that people can choose to look at-

Boyan Slat 1:05:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 ... or read. And, you know, to get them to read a fucking article, like, you gotta, you gotta have something good in there, so you have to distort. You have to inflame. You have to get people polarized, gotta get 'em upset.

Boyan Slat 1:05:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 You gotta paint a picture that makes you want to click on it, like, "What is he doing? That fucking idiot's wasting his time trying to pull tr- Doesn't he know what Grant Thornberg has been saying?"

Boyan Slat 1:06:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:08 "How dare you?" That's, that's what's going on, man.

Boyan Slat 1:06:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:11 You know? But it's, it's just a fun, weird time for humans, you know? There's, there's a lot of negative things, but there's also a lot of positive things. It's a fun, weird time.

Boyan Slat 1:06:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:23 There's a lot going on and it's happening very, very, very quickly. And the prognosticators, the people that are trying to pre- ... You know, have some sort of an idea of where this is all going, no one really knows. And change is happening at such a rapid pace that it scares everybody.

Boyan Slat 1:06:39 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 So they're looking to find things and they're looking for control, and they're looking to be the person who's got it figured out, because nobody's got it figured out.

Boyan Slat 1:06:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 It's madness. The Earth is heating. The fucking ice caps are melting. The fish are disappearing. People are eating dolphins. It's madness. It's madness out there. The fucking garbage patch is growing and growing and growing. And if it wasn't for someone like you who's actually acting and doing something about it-

Boyan Slat 1:07:03 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 ... it would just get worse.

Boyan Slat 1:07:05 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:05 You have a workable solution, you should be applauded.

Boyan Slat 1:07:08 Mm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 Fuck that guy. You heard me.

Boyan Slat 1:07:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 Right, Jamie?

Boyan Slat 1:07:12 I don't think it's specifically-

Joe Rogan 1:07:14 Fuck that guy, right?

Boyan Slat 1:07:14 Yeah. Fuck him hard.

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 Fuck him hard, right?

Boyan Slat 1:07:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 Yeah. Jamie agrees.

Boyan Slat 1:07:17 Well, uh, consensus, pretty much.

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 Yes. Consensus is fuck that guy.

Boyan Slat 1:07:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:21 But, but I get-

Boyan Slat 1:07:22 But consensus doesn't create clicks, so maybe we need some controversy here.

Joe Rogan 1:07:24 That guy is trying to make ... He's trying to make a living, or she, or their, or they.

Boyan Slat 1:07:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 They're trying to make a living, you know? I mean, I u- understand. It's like, in this day and age, like, you have to ... They have things you have to write about.

Boyan Slat 1:07:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:35 So they write about things and it might not necessarily be, um, you know, honest.

Boyan Slat 1:07:39 So how do you incentivize the truth? Let's ... A question.

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 Again, again, I think we're in this transitionary phase, and I also think technology is going to make a lot of what we're concentrating on-... obsolete. I think, um, w, we are really, really close to some crazy breakthroughs in terms of the distribution of information that's gonna make it obsolete.

Boyan Slat 1:08:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:04 And people aren't gonna care as much about clickbait-y things because, you know, you're gonna be able to feel things from, uh, digitally created media.

Boyan Slat 1:08:13 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 And we think we're very, very close to augmented reality becoming an, uh, an essential part of people's lives, you know, the same way your phone has become an essential part of your life. 20 years ago, no one carried a phone around. It was very rare and you wouldn-

Boyan Slat 1:08:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 ... n- y- you know, 1999, I mean, m- a small percentage of people had phones on them. Now it's 100%. Right? D- All this stuff is happening at this exponentially increasing rate. When they implement augmented reality, and who was telling us that Apple's, like, somewhere around 2021?

Boyan Slat 1:08:44 Man, I might have been ... I've been looking that up.

Joe Rogan 1:08:46 Yeah.

Boyan Slat 1:08:46 I mentioned it once or twice.

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 You definitely did.

Boyan Slat 1:08:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 Um, might have been you. Um, but some other folks had brought it up too, that Apple's really close and they're, they're in the process right now of developing some sort of augmented reality goggles.

Boyan Slat 1:08:59 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:00 And they'll be like glasses, like, you know, you put on a pair of, uh, you know, just like this. But you'll be seeing all these things in front of you. You'll be able to move them around.

Boyan Slat 1:09:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:09:10 You'll be able to see navigation.

Boyan Slat 1:09:12 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 You'll b- you'll turn it on and off, it'll probably work on Siri, you'll be able to talk to it. And you're gonna be able to get video and information written, w- as podcasts, all these things, music.

Boyan Slat 1:09:22 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 The- It's gonna come through this. And w- probably this is one step in this ever-increasing trend of us getting further and further immersed in technology. And, uh, augmented reality will lead to some sort of, uh, impossible to determine virtual reality-

Boyan Slat 1:09:41 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 ... where it's indistinguishable from regular reality. We're, we're like, we're like 50 years away from literally being in The Matrix.

Boyan Slat 1:09:48 Yeah. Yeah, so, so I, I think it's underappreciated how much our behavior is also guided by technology. I mean, of course, we have our genes, our genotype, which kinda lies at the most fundamental level of how our, our behaviors are formed. Um, that's why, you know, there is such a thing as, as, as human nature. But then there is this whole sort of cultural layer bu- that w- we humans created around us, which, um, I call the technosphere, maybe other people have different names for it. But it's indeed, uh, everything we read, we, we interact with something like 30,000 inventions or 30,000 technologies through our entire lives. That's a huge amount and I think, um, you know, that environment that shapes your behavior, it, um, decides what kind of b- um, yeah, genes are, are expressed. And the interesting thing is, is it's not just a natural environment, but it's an environment we create. So, so probably, um, you know, when you think about people being born thousands of years ago, their genes were very, very similar to the people today, yet, um, how they behave is completely different. You know, look again at violence. And why is that the case? Well, it's thanks to, uh, these inventions, not just, you know, physical inventions, but also cultural inventions and institutions that we created that, um, you know, shapes our behavior. And, um, you know, probably, you know, y- uh, human nature is, is, the human behavior is very hard to change unless it actually, um, you know, benefits what, what we do. Look at, you know, smartphones, how fast that happened versus, uh, how long it takes for smoking to, to go away. You know, one is, um, you know, one is kind of incentivizing the continued use of it, um, you know, through addictive products, while, um, with, um, with, uh, smartphones, it's again, it's, it's something that you, you want to use. Mm-hmm. So, um, so I just wonder whether, you know, that interaction between humans and the technology that we create kind of invent- uh, incentivizes inventors to become morally better and better, because they ... Uh, did you lose me already or ... You sure?

Joe Rogan 1:12:17 No, no, no, no.

Boyan Slat 1:12:17 Okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:18 No.

Boyan Slat 1:12:19 So-

Joe Rogan 1:12:20 (laughs)

Boyan Slat 1:12:20 ... so the, you know, the, the question is, um-

Joe Rogan 1:12:23 Well, people are incentivized primarily by profit, right?

Boyan Slat 1:12:26 Right. Um, but the, you know, the, the behavior that, that people, um, you know, e- express is, is kind of shaped by, by the world they, they live in. And, you know, who knows? Um, maybe a person today is, you know, is more incentivized to, to do good things because of the environment that has been created rather than 1000 years ago.

Joe Rogan 1:12:47 No, I, I think that's absolutely the case. And I hope that people's ability to express themselves through social media, although is often negative and bitchy, sometimes also it can give you a, a sense of the moral landscape of the culture. Like, not just the people on the far fringes that are the, the most angry and vehement about things, but people that have objective, real, rational thoughts. Like the, like the fact that you were able to read that article and objectively assess whether or not someone has any good points or not.

Boyan Slat 1:13:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:20 If we could all do that about everything, you know, if people had that sort of perspective, instead of being so reactionary, instead of being so angry about th- things.

Boyan Slat 1:13:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:28 Just look at criticisms, look at possibilities, look at all these different things, and then shape technology to fit within our ethical and moral boundaries. So there's pa- there's ... And also they're ... it's very profitable, right? Because if, if things don't feel ... If you don't have like a guilty feeling about buying something, like every time-

Boyan Slat 1:13:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:49 ... I get a plastic straw now, I feel guilty.

Boyan Slat 1:13:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:51 Right? If there was something that you ... that people, where they innovate to the point where you don't feel guilty supporting products and you-

Boyan Slat 1:13:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:13:58 ... feel like this company has the same sort of ethics and ideas that you have, that's all good. And I think we're moving more towards that. But-... again, like, we're, we're dealing with a very short window of time where human beings have had to adapt to this incredible amount of change-

Boyan Slat 1:14:12 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 ... that takes place during a small period of time.

Boyan Slat 1:14:14 Yeah. It's kind of the, you know, we're ... One way to look at problems is that it's kind of this chasm between, you know, human nature, human behavior, and how we want the world to be.

Joe Rogan 1:14:26 Mm-hmm.

Boyan Slat 1:14:26 And indeed, you know, social media's, that's the case. But similarly for environmental problems. We humans are, are driven by, you know, certain things. You know, self-interest is definitely a big part of it. And yet, um, you know, that's not creating the world right now that, that we want to live in because the, the, the technosphere, the technology that is the interface between, you know, the world, so sort of nature and, and human nature, that interface is not, uh, compatible with both. So you either have something that's compatible with human nature, so it's like a, you know, like a, a big car with a V8 engine, uh, but that's not compatible with, with nature. Or, um, you have something that's compatible with nature, which is probably, you know, walking, but it's not really compatible with human nature because we're, you know, lazy and greedy.

Joe Rogan 1:15:20 It's cold outside and you gotta get somewhere-

Boyan Slat 1:15:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:22 ... in a snowstorm.

Boyan Slat 1:15:23 Exactly. So ideally, what we do is rather than trying to change humans, which I don't think is a very futile activity because there is such a thing as human nature. We have genes. We have this evolutionary history. Uh, rather than trying to change that, I think it's much more effective to change the, the technology around us that, um, you know, enables our, you know, our inner desires and behaviors to, um, be positive rather than, than negative.

Joe Rogan 1:15:51 I agree with you. I think it's gonna be difficult though to get that same sort of, uh, positive result, um, when it comes to our addiction to technology.

Boyan Slat 1:16:03 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:16:03 Our, uh, addiction to smartphones in particular. I mean, for a long time it was like televisions, right? Like people talked about how much kids watch TV.

Boyan Slat 1:16:11 Right. Books.

Joe Rogan 1:16:11 Kids watch TV eight hours a day. It's so much.

Boyan Slat 1:16:14 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:16:14 It's so bad. You don't really hear that anymore.

Boyan Slat 1:16:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:16:17 You hear about phones, and this is a sort of an undiscussed rapid shift in what we waste our time doing.

Boyan Slat 1:16:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:16:26 And most of it is what you hear people talking about. And most of the use of these phones, I would, um, I'd be willing to bet a giant chunk of that is social media.

Boyan Slat 1:16:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:16:36 Right?

Boyan Slat 1:16:37 Yeah. And I, I, I suppose that's again this sort of infantile stage of that technology, I suppose, where-

Joe Rogan 1:16:45 Now we're infantile. It was adolescent before, now you're dropping it back. (laughs)

Boyan Slat 1:16:48 Yeah. It's, it's going down. (laughs) So, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:16:51 I think you're right.

Boyan Slat 1:16:52 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's again, probably we can engineer social media and, um, you know, our information technology to incentivize people to do good things. But indeed now, it's, it's probably, uh, incentivizing the, the use of scrolling through timelines because you watch more ads.

Joe Rogan 1:17:12 I also, I think it's our bodies and our minds and the way we view the world, it's ... We're not designed to live in this digital realm.

Boyan Slat 1:17:22 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:17:23 This is a completely new thing for the species.

Boyan Slat 1:17:25 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:17:26 And I think we don't really know how to handle the dopamine rush that we get-

Boyan Slat 1:17:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:17:29 ... from clicking on Instagram and scrolling through your feeds and checking your DMs and reading your emails and constantly interacting with people and checking, "Did he