Joe Rogan Experience #1414 - Mike Baker

1. 0:00 – 1:21

   Soleimani strike and the rapid “World War III” narrative

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (singing) Hello, Mike Baker.

   2. MBMike Baker0:04

      Hello. (laughs) Hello.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      Good to see you, buddy.

   4. MBMike Baker0:06

      Thank you very much. Thanks for having me back on.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      My pleasure. So tell me what's up? Are we in trouble? What's going on, man?

   6. MBMike Baker0:11

      No. It's World War III, haven't you heard?

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Is it?

   8. MBMike Baker0:13

      Uh, no.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      No.

   10. MBMike Baker0:14

       No, it's not. No.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:15

       No.

   12. MBMike Baker0:15

       I'm here to burst that bubble, I think. Uh, not that anyone's gonna say, "Okay, I, I, I'm writing this down. Mike said no World War III." Um, but it was, it was amazing how, how fast the... Uh, I'll put that closer there. It was amazing how fast the, uh, the narrative came out.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       Yeah.

   14. MBMike Baker0:29

       Right? I mean, we'd barely smoked, uh, Soleimani and, and suddenly, uh, the current president's gonna get us into this, this, uh, conflict. And-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       I was nervous.

   16. MBMike Baker0:39

       Well, I think everybody stepped back because it was such a shock to the system, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Yeah.

   18. MBMike Baker0:42

       We... I mean, when was the last time we dealt with Iran in this fashion? I mean, uh, as opposed to, like, a, a harshly-worded demarche or a note or maybe an extra sanction here or there. But th- it, it was such a strange, um, uh, development that I think it did... And the natural reaction was to say, "Uh, oh my God, here we go." You know, and certainly everybody's exhausted from, you know, 19 years out there, so. But, you know.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       I was, uh, shocked that Trump could make that call. 'Cause they had a bunch of different options. They had-

   20. MBMike Baker1:13

       And they're like, "Or we could kill him." He's like, "Let's kill him."

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       (laughs) Well-

   22. MBMike Baker1:15

       I was like, "Whoa, I didn't know you could do that." Well, you know what? He's, he's been a target before.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       (coughs) Yes.

2. 1:21 – 3:05

   Who Soleimani was: terrorist operator, regime power broker, long-time target

   1. MBMike Baker1:21

      Uh, Soleimani is... I mean, it's, there's e-... I guess I should first say, um, where I stand on all this, which is I'm, I'm not mourning his, uh, his, his passing, right? I mean, I think he deserved it. I think his justice, it should've been served up some time ago. He's responsible, not ju- not just for, uh, as people have talked about, the hundreds of, of, uh, US servicemen, um, but thousands and thousands of people. This guy was a completely, um, bloodthirsty douchebag. I mean, there's no way about it. And he was, and it was, and we're talking about the second most, um, structure-wise, the second most important person within the Iranian regime, next to the Ayatollah. So, but the idea that somehow we took out a foreign leader, right? Or a military general, like he was some sort of, um, Ike, you know, Eisenhower-

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:04

      Yeah.

   3. MBMike Baker2:05

      ... uh, is insane. The guy was a mob boss. He was, he was, uh, the head terrorist for a state that is the number one sponsor of terrorism around the world. And so, but he's been on, on target lists for a long time. You go back to, I think 2008, there was an operation to take out a guy named Mughniyah, who, uh, himself was also a, a, uh, bloodthirsty psychopath. And, um, he was running Hezbollah operations. So the Israelis, uh, had been tracking him, as had we. Um, and, uh, at one point they had an opportunity to take out Mughniyah and also, uh, Soleimani. And they backed off at the time, um, essentially because the US wouldn't, you know, get behind the idea that we're gonna take out Soleimani. That was, you know, at that point, that was a, a step too far. So they, uh, eventually we got Mughniyah. Um, but Soleimani is just, uh, uh... I mean, I don't even know where to start with the amount of blood that he, he's responsible for. Um, people

3. 3:05 – 6:28

   Iraq strategy: sectarian manipulation, Zarqawi, and engineered chaos

   1. MBMike Baker3:05

      talk about, again, okay, he authorized operations and activities in Iraq against US soldiers, and against Iraqi soldiers and Iraqi civilians. But it goes back to the beginning of that. I mean, you could go back to 2003. And Soleimani was the, was the architect, he dreamt up this idea as the US was going into Iraq, that, um, he was gonna... I mean, what he did was insane. He basically authorized, I mean, he's in charge, right? So he authorizes the release of a bunch of Sunnis that they've been holding onto. Iran being Shiite, um, arch-rivals being the Sunnis essentially. Um, and the Saudis are, are their archenemy, uh, a Sunni nation. And, but he released all these Sunni extremists that Iran had been holding onto, uh, essentially ever since we'd gone into Afghanistan, right after 9/11. And he released them into Iraq, in- including a guy named Zarqawi who became the head of Al-Qaeda in Iraq. And within a few months of our getting out to Iraq, the, uh, the Sunnis, uh, under, basically under Soleimani's tutelage, uh, had a series of bombings and started bombing everything from Shiite mosques to, um, UN facilities, the Jordanian Embassy, a variety of targets, killing thousands of Shiites. Now, he's a Shiite, right? So this is how bad this guy is. He goes into Iraq with this plan that, "I'm gonna push the Shiites in Iraq to Iran. I'm gonna, I'm gonna make them come to us for protection, for coverage essentially. We can ride in there." Because he, what does he want? He wants to exert their influence within Iraq. He doesn't want a strong Iraq. He doesn't want the US in there building a strong, stable Iraq. I mean, you go back to the Iran-Iraq War where Soleimani started his military career. And, you know, he's not, he, he, there's no way, uh, he's a true believer. There's no way he's ever gonna let Iraq become stable again. And he's insane enough that he kills thousands of Shiite, his own people, right, in order to push, um, the Shiite population in Iraq to Iran. I don't know if I'm, I'm, I'm may not-

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:14

      So like fall-

   3. MBMike Baker5:15

      ... being, being eloquent enough, but-

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:16

      ... is it false flag operations? Who's he blaming these bombings on?

   5. MBMike Baker5:18

      Yeah, well, it's not the Sunnis. It's the Sunnis are doing it.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:20

      So he's blaming it on the Sunnis?

   7. MBMike Baker5:20

      The Sunni extremists. Yeah, but, but he's authorized and he's pushed them into Iraq to do this under... Uh, and so he's, he wa- he was always very unusually capable at, at walking a fine line between, um, his own, uh, Shiite, uh, beliefs, population everything, and at times being able to be sort of a puppet master for Sunni extremists when it suited his cause. And it's, I mean, it's, it's... Anyway, it's, it's fascinating stuff. And whether it was dealing with, um, Hezbollah or the, you know, uh, Palestinian Islamic Jihad or whomever, he, um, again, I, I keep going back to the same thing. He deserved what he got. No doubt in my mind. Um, and I'm just surprised it didn't happen sooner, maybe not from us, but from others. They just, they... Back in October, the Iranians, you know, claimed that they foiled a, an assassination attempt against Soleimani by Israel and some unnamed Arab agents.So, it's not as if we just plucked his name out. You know, he'd spent two decades, you know, engaged in, in, uh, death and mayhem.

4. 6:28 – 10:55

   Media framing, partisan reflexes, and judging policy vs. personality

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:28

      Now, the take on him dying has not been like the take on Baghdadi. And Baghdadi, one of the most disturbing things that I saw was the Washington Post called him an asture religious scholar. Did you-

   2. MBMike Baker6:39

      (laughs) Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:39

      Did you see that?

   4. MBMike Baker6:40

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:41

      When that guy died, they called him an asture religious scholar and people that, that I talk to that understand who he was and what was going on there were fucking fuming. They were like, "What is this nut? Who the fuck wrote this?"

   6. MBMike Baker6:55

      Right. Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:55

      Like, you're talking about a goddamn terrorist, a real, legitimate, murderous terrorist and you're calling him an asture religious scholar.

   8. MBMike Baker7:02

      Right. You're giving him this credibility that is ... So I, I don't understand that either. I, I saw that and I, I talked to, to a handful of people who, um, you know, kind of leaned in that direction and, and, and also you get the same thing with Suleimani. Now, Suleimani I can understand. He's wrapped in the cloak of a, of a military uniform and, you know, people saw him sitting next to the Ayatollah and they're, "Oh, okay." Uh, but I, I look at it the same way. You know, this, this, this is not, uh, assassinating a foreign leader. This is not assassinating a, a revered scholar. This is a ... These are taking out, um, uh, terrorists, bloodthirsty terrorists who have a long track record of, of killing people. And, and what ... And it's not ... He was, he was not, uh, you know, he was not choosy. Right? With, with Suleimani we're talking about, again, uh, uh, Iraqis, uh, Yemenis, um, uh, you know, Syrians, um, a- a- his own people. I mean, we ... you know, they, they talk about maybe some 1,500 or so protestors, you know, being killed in Iran, um, in the past few months as a result of the protests against the Iranian regime, primarily because of corruption, you know, the fact that they've driven that economy into a toilet, uh, at the, at the expense of the Iranian people. Uh, lack of, of rights of any sort. And Suleimani, again, as the head of the Quds Force, you know, the number two person there. He's responsible. So I, I, I don't understand anybody who doesn't just say, "Yeah, I'm..." And I think the left had a hard time with it. The hard left, you, you saw them spinning a little bit saying, "Okay, we don't say he shouldn't have gotten it. We don't say he didn't deserve it. But..." And then they had to try to figure out some way to ... because it's all gotta be about politics now.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:37

      Yes.

   10. MBMike Baker8:37

       So they have to bring it back to the current president, to Trump.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       Well, whenever Trump does anything, even if what he does is fantastic, they can't get behind it. They almost have to get ... uh, go against things that are great. Like if the economy is great, they've got to find a reason why it's bad that the economy's great.

   12. MBMike Baker8:50

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:50

       And if it's-

   14. MBMike Baker8:51

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:51

       His decisions lead to something positive, they, they can't accept it.

   16. MBMike Baker8:55

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:55

       It's unfortunate.

   18. MBMike Baker8:56

       Well, we've lost our ability to, uh, I think, to look at things, um, just in an objective fashion.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:03

       Yeah.

   20. MBMike Baker9:03

       In any sense of the word objective or certainly w- we don't have civil conversations anymore. But, but the idea that we can look at ... and, and separate the politics from it. Look, I d- you know, again, I don't, I don't care whether people like Trump or not. I don't ... you know, I didn't vote for him. I don't, you know, necessarily care for the individual. But that doesn't mean I can't like policies.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:20

       Right.

   22. MBMike Baker9:20

       And whether you're talking about what's going on with Iran, whether you're talking about, you know, the way that we've been dealing with China lately, um, other issues. I'd ... you know, hey, I liked, I liked, uh, President Obama. Didn't like his policies. You know, I don't necessarily like Trump. I like his policies. I don't under- I don't see any conflict there.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:38

       Yeah.

   24. MBMike Baker9:38

       But anyway.

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:39

       No. I don't see any conflict there either, being people are complicated. And I just, I just didn't know that Trump could make the call.

   26. MBMike Baker9:45

       No.

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:45

       Like, he could be the guy that goes, "Take him out." Like when, when, when ... I thought that was like there was probably a panel of military leaders-

   28. MBMike Baker9:52

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:52

       ... and, like, really important people that understand the ramifications.

   30. MBMike Baker9:56

       Yeah.
5. 10:55 – 16:56

   Deterrence vs. war: Iran’s retaliation optics and the passenger jet tragedy

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:55

      But also people are very concerned about this possibility of us going to war with Iran and they think that this might have, like, started that off.

   2. MBMike Baker11:02

      Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, what changed the calculus here is Iran is ... you know, the regime is brutal and, and aw- and awful. They're not crazy. And w- the one thing they want more than anything else is to retain power. That's it. And I think they looked at the idea of a, of a military conflict, a direct military conflict with the US ... And this is not to say that their proxies won't, you know, strike out at us some place around the world at some point. Um, but the, the regime looked at that and thought, "Nah. You know what? We're not gonna do this." In, in part because, you know, the killing of Suleimani is, is important on a much bigger level than just taking out, you know, a, uh, a, a, uh, terrorist, uh, of his stature. Um, it's important for deterrence purposes and so, you know, I th- again, I think they looked and, and, and felt like the calculus in dealing with the US has shifted now. And they don't understand it, they're not comfortable with it, and also they can't afford it. Look, we ... if we got into military conflict, that was just the idea that, you know, somehow we were gonna get in World War III. It would be over in an evening. Literally. It would be over in one night. We have the ability to take out their entire energy infrastructure. Um, their missile bases, their key military facilities. And I don't wanna oversimplify this, but after that first night's activity, that's it. They're done. So the idea that somehow there's gonna be ... Now, does that mean that, you know, we should do that? Of course not. Nobody wants a military conflict.But, you know, a-a-an- and again, there would be knock-on repercussions, et cetera, et cetera. So hopefully, we can sort this thing out through now that we're doing the military deterrence and they understand that we're serious. Uh, we've got the economic pressures, we got diplomatic pressure, primarily to keep 'em isolated. I think, you know, I think we're on the right track with, with Iran. I think we're gonna see a different reaction from them.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:49

      Well, I was a little bit relieved when they attacked back and just sort of, like, launched missiles on the outside of bases. Nobody died. I was like, "Okay, so it seems like this is almost like they're, they're making a signal like they're attacking-"

   4. MBMike Baker13:05

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:05

      ... but they're not really doing anything.

   6. MBMike Baker13:06

      Mm-hmm, yeah. I think there, there was an optic to it, I think you're right-

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:09

      Yeah.

   8. MBMike Baker13:09

      ... absolutely, that they felt like they had to do something.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:11

      Yeah.

   10. MBMike Baker13:12

       The Ayatollahs gotta ... I don't know whether you call it saving face or not, but, um, (sighs) you know, and they, and we had a warning, we had warning ahead of time.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:19

       And didn't they, um, print in their paper, didn't they say that they killed a bunch of people?

   12. MBMike Baker13:23

       They did. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:23

       In, in the missile attack when they could?

   14. MBMike Baker13:24

       Yeah, they claimed about 80 or so, I think.

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:26

       Right.

   16. MBMike Baker13:26

       Uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:26

       Keep saying it.

   18. MBMike Baker13:27

       Right, exactly. Just do whatever-

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:28

       Yeah.

   20. MBMike Baker13:28

       ... it takes. But then, I mean, uh, you know, and, but look at the reaction that we've had and they, you know, of course, the Ukrainian, uh, commercial passenger jet, uh, went down.

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:37

       Yeah.

   22. MBMike Baker13:38

       Um ...

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:39

       And that was them, right?

   24. MBMike Baker13:40

       Oh, that was, that was definitely them. Uh, when-

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:42

       So do you think that they shot it down because they thought it was a US military plane?

   26. MBMike Baker13:46

       Yeah, it was an i- look, th- this is, it, it's, it's not unprecedented. I mean, we shot down an Iranian passenger jet years and years ago, right? The Russians shot down ... they still won't admit to it, but they shot down a, a, a, a, uh, passenger jet over Ukraine, uh, you know, what, uh, just a handful of years ago, that which they still won't admit to. Um, it's, it's human error, and it's human error in a conflict zone, in a, in a situation where there's, uh, there's a lot of moving parts and it's never gonna be a zero-risk game. So if the Iranians had done this, as tragic as it is, and come out and said, "Oh my God, we, you know, we did this." Okay, well, there's, you know, (sighs) it w- it would've been horrific, but they, uh, you know, they did this to themselves. They d- because they just couldn't bring themselves to be truthful and they've got a long track record of, of not. Uh, and so they, they engaged in this and, and shot it down. I th- it is, uh, d- when you find missile debris in a, in a, uh, in, in a field where you're doing an investigation of a plane crash (laughs) , that's pretty good indication. And then there's the video on top of that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:48

       Oh, there is a video of the missile hitting the plane?

   28. MBMike Baker14:50

       Yeah, two missiles.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:51

       Oh, Jesus Christ.

   30. MBMike Baker14:52

       Yeah, 30 seconds apart, roughly 30 seconds apart. So-
6. 16:56 – 19:54

   Allies and escalation fears: why Russia/China won’t jump in

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:56

      Mm. Now were you concerned at all, and this is one of the things when, when you say that we could go in there and, and level them in a day, (sniffing) the, the real issue is their allies, right? The real issue is China and Russia.

   2. MBMike Baker17:10

      Yeah, but they're not gonna do anything. China and Russia aren't gonna do anything. It's not in their best interest, and they, th- they ... if they're consistent about one thing, both those countries, it's that they act in their own best interest, and they would look at that and go, (clapping hands) "Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry." Um, I mean, look, the, uh, w- so what are we dealing with in, in that immediate area? Um, Iran's closest ally is Syria, right? Soleimani, Soleimani spent, you know, uh, billions of, uh, you know, uh, Iranian dollars, uh, money, um, that they couldn't afford to and that should've been spent on its population, um, arming, training, equipping, uh, and dealing with, um, the Syrian, uh, war and keeping his pal Assad in power. Um, so, uh, Iran and Assa- and, and Syria are, are tied together, but is Syria in a position to somehow rise up and, you know, engage the ... uh, this is not gonna be ... this wouldn't have been a, uh, a conflict as we imagine it, right? It wouldn't be a conflict of occupying space and ground and all the rest of it. Nobody wants it, nobody needs ... it's not, it's not good for anybody. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that, uh, in the scheme of things, um, w- you would have overwhelming, um ...

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:24

      Superiority.

   4. MBMike Baker18:24

      ... suppor- superiority, yeah. And, and yeah, I'd, I'd ...I can't imagine a scenario where Russia, you know, would come in. And we, in fact, we would probably, um, ask, you know, as anybody would, we would say, "Okay, look, the Russian military's in Syria. We're gonna liaise with you, gonna advise you, you know, shit's coming down." And, 'cause we, the last thing we wanna do is drag them into it by hitting some of their facilities or personnel, or whatever. So, there would be that level of coordination, which there always is, no matter who the parties are. There's always some element of coordination. But anyway, yeah, I, I, I don't see that happening. I, I think we've averted that. I hope we've averted sort of further military, uh, uh, you know, conflict. Uh, I think, again, I think the Iranian regime understands that it's a new day perhaps. That they'll, you know, come to the table eventually. That's what this whole maximum pressure campaign's about is to, again, create sufficient economic pressure, ensure that they understand the idea of deterrents, uh, which I think they do after this strike on Soleimani. Um, and that, that goes back a ways. This wasn't just like something that just, you know, they thought of after an American contractor was killed. The Iranian regime had been ratcheting up their aggressiveness and their attacks and their various, uh, operations out in that region for a quite a while. And we had been talking to them about it, or getting the signal to them that, "You've gotta stop this." And back in December, they were told, "If you continue this path, we are going to take serious action." And we did.

7. 19:54 – 22:32

   How intelligence is collected on hard targets like Iran

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:54

      How difficult is it to get intelligence on what they're up to and, and what, what they're planning, what they're responsible for? Like, when, when you're here in America, I mean, uh, what, how do we do it? Like, what-

   2. MBMike Baker20:07

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:07

      Who's over there? Like, how do they do that? How do they find out exactly what these guys are up to?

   4. MBMike Baker20:12

      Well, a lot of it's, um, old school HUMINT, uh, human intelligence, right? So, through sources. Um, and a lot of that sourcing comes from our allies. So, whether it's the Israelis or the Jordanians or the Saudis, or whomever, right? Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:24

      So, they know someone who's on the inside, or like, how does it work?

   6. MBMike Baker20:28

      They've got a source, they've got some recruited asset. You know, Iran's always been a tough target for us, just like North Korea's a tough target. Um, and so we rely heavily on our liaison partners and, um, but oftentimes, no matter how good your signals intelligence is, right, no matter how good you are at, at, at, at gathering SIGINT or photo interpretation, um, of overhead imagery, it's still, to this day, no matter how good technology gets, you can't beat having an asset, having a human who's sitting in a meeting somewhere. And then for whatever their motivation is, whatever their, you know, reason for doing it, they're cooperating with you or our liaison partners, and they're saying like, "Here's what happened." Or, "Here's how that person looked." Right? Um, I mean, maybe you get signals intelligence because you're, you're picking up, you know, communications and then what do you got? You got something on a piece of paper and you're reading a transcript of a meeting. But if you've got somebody who's in that meeting and who can tell you what people looked like or what the actual atmosphere was, or the mood or the way that ... I mean, that's invaluable, right? And so we, we rely a great deal on that. But you basically, you hoover up everything you can from all the various different types of, of, uh, of intelligence capabilities. Um, but it's, it's a, it's a tough target. I mean, there's no doubt about it. Um, I mean, that's why this whole nuclear weapons program with Iran has always been so difficult, right? I mean, and you talk to people and they go, "Well, they've got about a, they've got about a 12-month breakout time before they'd have a, a nuclear weapon." And then other people say, "Well, I think they've got about a three-month breakout time." Well, when you're talking about how long it's gonna take them to have a nuclear weapon, you'd like to get that, that, those parameters a little closer together, right? So that you're not having to complete guess. But, uh, it's tough and, um, you know, we, we, we spend a lot of time working on that. But I, I, I would, would say that we have tremendous allies in that region. Um, and, you know, I know that people, it's fashionable nowadays to say, "Well, the Trump Administration, we've been, you know, pushing away our allies and they don't wanna work with us." And that, you know what? They do. And in part because again, it's the same old story.

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:29

      Yeah.

   8. MBMike Baker22:29

      It's in their best interest. Right? So ...

8. 22:32 – 36:47

   Election talk and campaign media: Trump’s style, Democratic field, and debate theater

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:32

      Is there any benefit to having, uh, someone like Trump who's very difficult to, to read? 'Cause he's what, you know, he's, he's the kind of guy like, when, when Baghdadi was killed, he said he died like a dog.

   2. MBMike Baker22:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:47

      Like, he, he says crazy shit and he-

   4. MBMike Baker22:49

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:49

      ... and he talks about like, with Iran that he was, that they might respond back with disproportionate results or with a disproportionate response in comparison to the, the initial attack if Iran attacked us.

   6. MBMike Baker23:01

      Yeah, or the cultural sites. The cultural sites, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:03

      Yeah. The 52 cultural sites.

   8. MBMike Baker23:05

      Cultural sites.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:05

      But that was so crazy like, to, to represent the 52 people that were kidnapped in the fucking Carter Administration?

   10. MBMike Baker23:11

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan23:12

       What?

   12. MBMike Baker23:12

       Yeah, I mean, I, I, we don't really need to go with the symbolism, fellas. We could just-

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:16

       Just, just-

   14. MBMike Baker23:16

       ... just pick some targets, but let's not pick the cultural sites.

   15. JRJoe Rogan23:18

       Yeah, that seems ridiculous.

   16. MBMike Baker23:19

       You know? Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:20

       Why would you do that? Those are historic.

   18. MBMike Baker23:21

       Yeah. Well, you know what? That's, that's where I say, look, I understand why people, you know, they go, "Oh my God." You know? And-

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:27

       Yeah.

   20. MBMike Baker23:27

       ... yeah, but at the same time, that doesn't mean you can't like, you know, policies that are in place.

   21. JRJoe Rogan23:31

       Right.

   22. MBMike Baker23:31

       So, I always, I always put that out there. I always say, "Yeah, I get it. That's, and that's ridiculous." Right? And it's a self-inflicted wound and you could argue that, you know, that most of the problems they deal with out of this White House are self-inflicted wounds because there's a lack of, of discipline. And so it'd be nice if the president was more buttoned up. Of course, that's not gonna be the way it works.

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:47

       Yeah.

   24. MBMike Baker23:47

       He, he, he, I think, I, what do I know? But he firmly believes, I think, that this is why he got elected. So ...

   25. JRJoe Rogan23:53

       I think it, I think it is why he got elected.

   26. MBMike Baker23:55

       Really?

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:55

       Yeah, I think a lot of why he got elected is 'cause he's wild and people like it. They like it. They like something different.

   28. MBMike Baker24:02

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan24:02

       They're, they're tired of these people that sound like politicians. You know, you hear, you know, pick a person, Elizabeth Warren. You hear them talk and you feel the bullshit coming out of their mouth while they're talking.

   30. MBMike Baker24:11

       Yeah.
9. 36:47 – 46:10

   From politics to history: Native American books, reservations, and harsh realities

   1. MBMike Baker36:47

      Oh, by the way, (laughs) by the way, I was, one of my boys was home sick the other day, uh, from school. The middle boy, Sluggo. And, uh, so we were sitting on the sofa and I said, "You know, you're not feeling well, watch a movie?" Now God bless him, he's, he's 10 years old, he considers himself a baller. All he wants to do is play basketball.

   2. JRJoe Rogan37:02

      (laughs)

   3. MBMike Baker37:02

      That's all he wants to do with his life. He knows he's gonna get, uh, recruited by Duke. He knows he's gonna end up in the NBA. And, but we're sitting there and it was really kind of sweet 'cause he's, you know, he's got all this hard side to him and just playing ball. And then he says, "Well, yeah, let's watch a Disney movie." So we kind of dialed up Disney+ because we, like, we're, we're sheep and we bought the Disney+ thing. And, and, uh, Peter Pan-... and the original Peter Pan, right? The original Disney Peter Pan. (laughs) So we turn it on, and I'd forgotten, uh, wh- what that movie was like in terms of its treatment of Native Americans.

   4. JRJoe Rogan37:33

      Oh, it's horrible.

   5. MBMike Baker37:34

      Oh my God. (laughs) So we're watching it and we get to that part where, you know, they're, they're singing that song and the, the boys, you know, the Lost Boys are tied up with Wendy and Michael and all. And, and the, the, the chief comes in and he wants to find Tiger Lily, you know, the princess, you know, because, you know, Hook is... The viewers are like, "What the hell's (laughs) going on here?" So anyway, I'm sitting there and, and even Sluggo looks at me and he goes, "Wow, this is kind of racist."

   6. NANarrator37:57

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan37:57

      (laughs)

   8. MBMike Baker37:57

      (laughs) Really?

   9. JRJoe Rogan37:59

      When a 10-year-old says that. (laughs)

   10. MBMike Baker38:01

       Yeah, a 10-year-old says it. I thought, "Well, okay."

   11. JRJoe Rogan38:03

       Everything was racist back then.

   12. MBMike Baker38:04

       Everything was racist. Well, that's what we had.

   13. JRJoe Rogan38:06

       Yeah.

   14. MBMike Baker38:06

       We had a conversation. I said, "Yep, you know, where you..." Y- yeah. It... pretty much what I told him. But anyway.

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:10

       Well, particularly about Native Americans. I mean, they just... they were able to get away with it.

   16. MBMike Baker38:14

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan38:14

       Nobody, nobody protested it. I've been, uh...

   18. MBMike Baker38:16

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan38:16

       I'm reading this book now, or I'm listening to it on tape called, uh, Black Elk Speaks. It's about this, uh, Oglala Sioux medicine man who was, uh... while he was still alive in the, the 1930s, they, they wrote this book. We... he told the story of Custer, and he was there.

   20. MBMike Baker38:33

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan38:33

       He was a young boy when Custer was killed, and he told the story of, like, life on the plains and Crazy Horse. And it's fucking fascinating, yeah.

   22. MBMike Baker38:40

       When was it written?

   23. JRJoe Rogan38:41

       It's written in 1930s.

   24. MBMike Baker38:43

       Okay.

   25. JRJoe Rogan38:43

       Early 1930s.

   26. MBMike Baker38:43

       And it's called what? Black Elk Speaks?

   27. JRJoe Rogan38:44

       Black Elk Speaks. Yeah.

   28. MBMike Baker38:45

       Okay.

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:46

       I've read... I've listened to on tape... uh, this is, like, the fourth or fifth one that I've listened to on Native Americans over the last couple of months. But this is the best one. This is the best one because... not that the other ones weren't great. They were great. But th- what's interesting about this is the actual words of a man who lived that life.

   30. MBMike Baker39:04

       Yeah.
10. 46:10 – 1:02:23

    China, Huawei, and the split strategy: trade détente vs. tech confrontation

    1. MBMike Baker46:10

       Um, yeah, anyway. I don't know. But, uh, what else? Oh, I know what I wanted to, to... I was gonna bring up because I can't come on the show without talking about Huawei. (laughs)

    2. JRJoe Rogan46:19

       Oh, so something going on with Huawei again?

    3. MBMike Baker46:22

       Uh, um, th- only in, on the periphery. Today, um, the Trump administration signed its first, uh, portion of a deal with China, and so it's a trade pact, right? There's been this trade battle, obviously, and I, I just, I just thought I was... Flying out here and I, I was thinking about it. It's interesting dynamic, right? Because, uh, you know, people talk about this current administration as not having any strategy, and sometimes it does seem frankly that way. But I was thinking the other day that it is, there is actually this, uh, uh, an interesting, um, split in terms of how they're dealing with China. So on the one hand, we've got this softening of the trade war, I'm gonna... They're gonna... As a result of signing what they signed today with China is sort of the first stage trade agreement. It's mostly involves, you know, uh, increased purchases by China of US goods. There's some talk about them scaling back (laughs) their theft of intellectual property. Uh...

    4. JRJoe Rogan47:17

       Scaling back?

    5. MBMike Baker47:17

       Scaling back, yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan47:18

       That's a whole area. (laughs)

    7. MBMike Baker47:19

       Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna do it-

    8. JRJoe Rogan47:20

       Maybe we won't steal so much.

    9. MBMike Baker47:23

       Yeah, we'll take a... You know, we're not gonna... It's not gonna stop stealing. But, um, but there's, there's that element to it. Um, but at the same time as they're doing this, and as a result of that, we're gonna have... We're gonna cut in half our, our, uh, tariffs on quite a bit of, of, uh, uh, a large amount of goods. And I think we're gonna drop the idea of imposing more tariffs on some other goods. But even while we're doing that, so that's happening, right? But as we're doing that, we're also ratcheting up, uh, pressure and some sanctions and some legislation against the technology side of things. So we're still coming down on, on Huawei. Um, Congress is trying to push through something that's going to make it even more difficult for US companies to do business with them overseas. But I think it's interesting, right? Because we're... You know, there's, there's some people I think in Washington who go, "Well, we can't do both." Well, of course you can do both, right? You can talk to the Chinese in, in real terms and say, "Yeah, let's, let's, you know, let's focus on the trade. Well, we're gonna do this, we're gonna make it a little bit easier. Let's, let's create a trade environment where it's good for both of us." At the same time, you know what? You're still, you know, stealing our shit and Huawei's still a national security threat. So we're still gonna focus on this. And, uh, you know, this is not saying I'm singing praises of this current administration. I'm just saying that any administration should be able to operate on different levels, right? When it comes to the same... But we don't, we, we haven't seemed to do that. It's like with Iran, you know. Well, okay, we're... You know, in the, in the past if they just gave some indication that they were gonna play ball with us, we'd ease up on the sanctions, right? Even though they hadn't done anything about their, their pursuit of terrorism and, and other things that they were doing. Because we felt like in Washington, I think sometimes DC is like, "Oh, you can't do two things at one time that seem to be conflicting." Well, the real world says, I think, that you can. So I think China gets it. Um, now I don't think they're gonna stop stealing shit.

    10. JRJoe Rogan49:09

        It seems to be how they operate.

    11. MBMike Baker49:11

        Yeah. Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan49:12

        Especially when you consider the fact that the government is so inexorably connected to Huawei. Like, you, when you were explaining how big business and the government are hand in hand. They're not two separate entities. They work completely together.

    13. MBMike Baker49:26

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JRJoe Rogan49:27

        And so with Huawei, since they have been busted having third party access to data, and, and stealing packets and stuff with routers. Because they have done that, you gotta think, "Well, that's probably a part of the way they do business." They, they...

    15. MBMike Baker49:42

        Well, it's... It is. It's, it's, it's, it's in their system. I mean, they made a decision-... decades ago, right? This is how we're going to achieve superiority in the world, right? We're going to get to the top of the, of the food chain by skipping all the costs and, and, and pain of research and development. We're just gonna hoover up everything we can from not just sh- the US but everybody. So, you know, part of this, all this, this pushback against China has been specifically trying to say, "Look, you, you, you gotta stop that," right?

    16. JRJoe Rogan50:08

        Mm-hmm.

    17. MBMike Baker50:08

        "We understand it. We're calling you out on it. We're, we're doing..." Now, we've tried doing that a, a handful of times in the past in a half-hearted manner. This time, you know, I think the Chinese understand we're more serious about it, and we are trying to, to implement certain, um, measures that will, um, prevent some of that theft. But at the same time, I think it, it, as you said, it's part of how they do business, right? We're not gonna... So, I think we have to be pragmatic in all of this and think, "Yeah, we're, it's good that we're pushing them on it." It's good that we're telling them. It's good that we're trying to rebalance the trade environment, um, that we're calling out Huawei, that we're talking to our allies about not doing business with them, because all they, all they really want is they want an access point, right?

    18. JRJoe Rogan50:46

        Mm-hmm.

    19. MBMike Baker50:46

        So if they do business with the UK, suddenly in this seamless world of communications, now they've got a, a, a, an entry point into the US. Um, so it's, you know, we're, we're working to try to get our allies to stay on board with us about that. But yeah, the, the, the Chinese, they subsidize Huawei and the government does in a big way. Um, and it's, we just have to be realistic, right? We're not gonna change their, their behavior in a, in a, in a major way. They're just gonna become more sophisticated or more o-obtuse about how they do it.

    20. JRJoe Rogan51:18

        Well, the best evidence to me that there's really something going on is that Google's even stepped in, right?

    21. MBMike Baker51:22

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    22. JRJoe Rogan51:23

        Google, Google's even said, "We won't even give you our access to Google Store anymore. If you wanna have a Huawei phone, even if you buy it from overseas, it will not work on the Google ecosystem."

    23. MBMike Baker51:33

        Yeah, yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan51:34

        So what Huawei's done is they've started their own little weird app store, and they've started creating their own apps. They're, they're essentially frozen out of the ecosystem that Google provides and the Google Play Store provides. But you can side load some apps by going to the website.

    25. MBMike Baker51:50

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan51:50

        Like you can side load, you can download some of them and put them on a phone, but they're, they're essentially relegated to these weird Chinese versions of a lot of the popular applications. And it's a very limited selection. And when it comes to high-end cell phones, like, what is the new Huawei phone? I think it's called the Mate 30 Pro. They just announced another one. They ann- announced another one. They're, they're, this is the other thing.

    27. MBMike Baker52:13

        Just now?

    28. JRJoe Rogan52:14

        Yeah, right?

    29. JVJamie Vernon52:14

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan52:14

        Well, the, oh, Mike Victor, fuck him.
11. 1:02:23 – 1:07:47

    TikTok as a cyber concern, screen culture, and attention-span anxieties

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:02:23

       And TikTok's a Chinese company already.

    2. MBMike Baker1:02:25

       Mm-hmm. Right, right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:02:25

       And now is-

    4. MBMike Baker1:02:26

       And there's some talk, I mean, they've been making efforts, you know, to limit the ability for TikTok to do business, you know, like-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:02:32

       Really?

    6. MBMike Baker1:02:33

       ... I think the US military has, has instructed all personnel to stay off of TikTok, you know, or not to use TikTok.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:02:39

       Whoa. Really?

    8. MBMike Baker1:02:39

       Yeah, because... Yeah, again, because of the same concern. The whole idea is this platform because, you know... The- these, these companies can argue all they want to that they're independent from the Chinese, you know, authorities. But ultimately, if the Chinese authorities knock on their door and say, "We would like access to your database because we want to hoover up all the information about every US military person, you know, that's stationed wherever or," you know, they're gonna do it.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:03:00

       They're trying to get one of the top TikTok executives in here.

    10. MBMike Baker1:03:04

        Really?

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:03:04

        Yeah.

    12. MBMike Baker1:03:05

        Interesting. Okay.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:03:06

        Yeah, not really.

    14. MBMike Baker1:03:06

        Ah, wow.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:03:07

        Not really interesting at all.

    16. MBMike Baker1:03:08

        (laughs)

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:03:08

        Not interesting to me. (laughs)

    18. MBMike Baker1:03:10

        So it's not happening?

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:03:11

        No.

    20. MBMike Baker1:03:11

        No. No.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:03:12

        Fuck you.

    22. MBMike Baker1:03:13

        No. I don't even understand TikTok.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:03:15

        TikTok. (clears throat)

    24. MBMike Baker1:03:15

        I mean, I, yeah, I know the kids, kids usually, kids like it, I guess.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:03:18

        Look at this.

    26. MBMike Baker1:03:18

        They make TikTok videos.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:03:19

        It's considered a cyber threat.

    28. MBMike Baker1:03:21

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:03:21

        Lieutenant Colonel Robyn Ocha, an Army spokeswoman, told Military.com, "We do not allow it on government phones."

    30. MBMike Baker1:03:27

        There you go.

Episode duration: 2:30:38