Joe Rogan Experience #1425 - Garrett Reisman

1. 0:02 – 4:18

   Returning from space: heavy helmets, balance issues, and rebuilding the body

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Three, two, one. Welcome. Thanks for doing this, man. I really appreciate it.

   2. GRGarrett Reisman0:06

      Thanks for inviting me. This is awesome.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Uh, I've seen a bunch of your videos online of you talking about space and your, your, your dream of being an astronaut as a young man. And what, what is it like just to see the Earth from above and to be... You lived up there for like, what, 95 days?

   4. GRGarrett Reisman0:22

      95 days, which actually is kind of a bummer, to be honest with you. Because, uh... You know this if you saw that video, maybe, but-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      Yeah.

   6. GRGarrett Reisman0:30

      ... the thing is, if you stay for 100 days, they give you a patch, right? And I, I, I'm at day 95 and the Space Shuttle Discovery shows up to bring me home, and Mark Kelly was the commander. He goes, "Garrett, it's time to hop in and come home." And I'm like, "Man, I just need five more days." (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:47

      (laughs) To get that patch.

   8. GRGarrett Reisman0:48

      Can we just, like, go around a few more times or something? And it didn't work.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:52

      Yeah. It seems like 95 days should be enough, man. Give the man a patch.

   10. GRGarrett Reisman0:56

       Right, right, you know.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       What's-

   12. GRGarrett Reisman0:58

       It's... How much does a patch cost?

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       What's the longest anybody's stayed up there?

   14. GRGarrett Reisman1:02

       The longest, um, for an American was Scott Kelly's, uh, nearly a year, in space, is longest, uh, in, in, in a row, basically. Uh, but there's a Russian, uh, that stayed up there for longer than a year, and he has the all-time record.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       How... N- and they... When they come back, like, what, what is 90 days like, coming back? Because I've talked to people who've gone there. When they come back, their balance is all off. Their equilibrium's all-

   16. GRGarrett Reisman1:27

       Yeah, you're-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       ... screwy.

   18. GRGarrett Reisman1:28

       You're kind of... Uh, it, it, it's, uh, you're kind of messed up. And, and your vestibular system is what's affected the most. At least that's what's most noticeable when you first get back. Um, actually, the first thing I noticed, uh, let me back up, is, uh, how heavy things were again. You know, so-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       Oh.

   20. GRGarrett Reisman1:43

       Uh, like I took off my helmet and I was holding it in my hand, and it felt like I was holding the anchor to the USS Nimitz, you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:48

       (laughs)

   22. GRGarrett Reisman1:48

       (laughs) It's like... I'm like, "How am I ever gonna brush my teeth?" It'd be, like, too arduous, you know.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:53

       Does your body severely weaken in 95 days?

   24. GRGarrett Reisman1:57

       Well, back in the day, back when I was going there... So that mission, my, my long-term mission was back in, uh, 2008. And back then, we were still losing bone density and muscle mass, uh, as we're going up there. The long- about... You lost about 1% of bone every month. So I was about 3% low.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       They don't anymore?

   26. GRGarrett Reisman2:16

       They don't anymore, 'cause we found out ... We, we came up with better countermeasures to prevent that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       What are the countermeasures?

   28. GRGarrett Reisman2:22

       It's basically working out.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:23

       Oh.

   30. GRGarrett Reisman2:24

       Uh, and it's resistive exercise that, that does it for you. Which we knew back when I was going, but the problem was we had a, uh, in- we had this machine that was kind of a, um, a first generation of the workout machine, and it could do large reps, but, but low load. So you're doing, like, a lot of reps at, at l- at low weight, and, and that helped, but it... But what helps, it turns out, we didn't... We found this out kind of by happenstance, but it turns out that high load, low reps works much better.
2. 4:18 – 11:04

   Workout science in microgravity: resistance, loading, and why hot sauce matters

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:18

      And how often do you have to work out? Every day?

   2. GRGarrett Reisman4:20

      Every day.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:21

      Every day. How often... Uh, like how much time?

   4. GRGarrett Reisman4:22

      They, they schedule two hours. Now, you're not on the machine-

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:25

      Wow.

   6. GRGarrett Reisman4:25

      ... for two hours, so that's also prepping, you know, getting changed and, uh, you know, cleaning up afterwards. But, um... So you're working out a good hour every day.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:33

      What is it like to sweat in space?

   8. GRGarrett Reisman4:35

      (clicks tongue) It's weird be- (laughs) because-

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:38

      (laughs)

   10. GRGarrett Reisman4:38

       ... what happens is, uh, it... Y- y- if you don't notice, if y- y- like in the beginning, you don't even realize it, but it's all building up. And even without, like... If, if you have no hair to soak it up, it just builds up like this thin film of water on your head, like a coating of water.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:52

       Oh.

   12. GRGarrett Reisman4:52

       And you don't even notice it, 'cause it doesn't run down. And then, and then somebody calls your name and you're like, "Yeah?" And then (imitates water splashing) like it's like... (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:00

       (laughs) Oh, that's crazy. I never even thought of that. So it just kind of floats off your body?

   14. GRGarrett Reisman5:05

       Yeah, it's like a dog shaking itself, you know, and it just goes everywhere and it's-

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:08

       So if you have it on your arm, you can kind of just go (imitates water splashing) and the, the, the sweat will go flying?

   16. GRGarrett Reisman5:12

       You know, your crewmates won't be too happy with you if you do this a lot, but yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:16

       Wow. Oh, that's... Is there video of people doing that in space?

   18. GRGarrett Reisman5:20

       There's gotta be.

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:21

       There should be, right?

   20. GRGarrett Reisman5:21

       We, we've shot so much video. Somebody's gotta have done that, but yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       So are you basically doing, like, compound movements like deadlifts and squats and things along those lines?

   22. GRGarrett Reisman5:29

       Yeah, functional fitness kind of stuff, uh, where, um... But... And you're focusing on certain areas, so y- The bone loss comes mostly from your legs-

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:36

       Oh.

   24. GRGarrett Reisman5:37

       ... because you're not loading... So, so basically-

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:39

       Right.

   26. GRGarrett Reisman5:39

       ... our bones, um, need a stimulus, uh, to regenerate. And it happens to us every day. So as you walk, as you go up the stairs, that load that the bones feel, the compressive load, is telling the bone, "Hey, make some more."

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:52

       Mm.

   28. GRGarrett Reisman5:53

       Now, you take that away and the bone stops making more, and that's the problem. People say, like, "Can't you just take, like, calcium pills?" But it's not a, a mineral deficiency.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:01

       It's just-

   30. GRGarrett Reisman6:02

       It's-
3. 11:04 – 16:34

   Space food and first glimpses of Earth: the 'meh' moment and the overview effect debate

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:04

      Oh, wow. Now what are you eating up there?

   2. GRGarrett Reisman11:07

      Oh, it's terrible. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:08

      (laughs)

   4. GRGarrett Reisman11:10

      (laughs) Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:11

      Is it freeze-dried foods mostly, or?

   6. GRGarrett Reisman11:12

      Mo- yeah. You don't go for the food, all right? This is not like a foodie holiday.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:16

      (laughs)

   8. GRGarrett Reisman11:16

      (laughs) You know? It's like... The- the, uh, so you got basically two choices. You have the American food, which is essentially MREs, like military freeze-dried, irradiated, uh, you know, infinite shelf life kind of stuff. And, uh, and then the Russian food is also based on their military rations but from submarines. And that- and the Russian food actually tastes better, but the problem is one of presentation because it comes in cans. So you get these- these cans, and even though it tastes good, you open that can up and you look at it, and it's like, God, it looks like dog food. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:53

      (laughs) Just, like, congealed and-

   10. GRGarrett Reisman11:55

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:56

       ... but it tastes better?

   12. GRGarrett Reisman11:57

       It- it- it tastes better. Uh, but it's just, like, so unappetizing when you open that can up and p-... you know?

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:04

       Mm-hmm.

   14. GRGarrett Reisman12:04

       It's just not-

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:06

       Y- does... What, what would happen if you brought fresh things up there? Would they... would they rot at the same rate that they would rot in America?

   16. GRGarrett Reisman12:13

       Well, yeah. The on- th- the thing is, um, we have no refrigeration. Or w- we didn't when I was there. They actually have a small refrigerator now. So, you can't have anything that c- uh, needs to be refrigerated.

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:24

       Hmm.

   18. GRGarrett Reisman12:24

       But you would usually... Like, for the first couple of days, we'd take a bag of fresh food and we took, like, sandwiches and, and, and, uh, fruits and vegetables and stuff, and then... 'Cause that's the last time you're gonna have it. After that, it's all gonna be just the stuff in the packets that you add water to.

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:39

       Now, when... The first day you ac- actually got up there, was that the first time you had ever been in space?

   20. GRGarrett Reisman12:46

       Uh, my first mission, yeah. The first... Yeah, it was the first time in space.

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:49

       So, your first view of the Earth from above.

   22. GRGarrett Reisman12:51

       Yeah. It was that right there. Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:53

       What is that like?

   24. GRGarrett Reisman12:54

       Wow. Well, I didn't see it right away 'cause I was in the mid-deck, the downstairs of the shuttle, and there's only one window down there and it's in the corner, okay? So it's in the hatch and it's, like, the size of a dinner plate. And I was up there... You got a lot of work to do when you... as soon as you get up there. So I'm working like crazy, and after about 30 minutes, I see this pale blue glow coming from that window and I'm like, "W- that's the Earth, you know. I, I should have a look at that." And I was super excited for this, you know? So I wanted to be ready, so I paused, I closed my eyes, I meditated, you know, call it whatever you want. I just got ready. And when I felt like I was ready, I floated up to that window and I opened up my eyes and I gazed out for the very first time at the Earth from space. And what that felt like, is, is really, really hard to, to describe in words. But if I had to pick one word to describe what I was feeling at that moment, it would be "meh." (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:00

       Really?

   26. GRGarrett Reisman14:01

       Yeah, man. (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:02

       Just meh?

   28. GRGarrett Reisman14:03

       Just meh. I mean, it was all right. It was pretty. It had a lot of, like, those Earth colors, like blues and greens.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:08

       Right.

   30. GRGarrett Reisman14:09

       But, man, we've all seen pictures of the Earth, uh, from space, okay? I mean, we got, like, HD video coming down from space now, where it's just spectacular. You could see stuff in that video that you can't even see with your own eyes, like, uh, like the aurora and all that.
4. 16:34 – 17:31

   Best views in orbit: the Cupola window and why it still isn’t a spacewalk

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:34

      Well, is there one place that's the spot on the space station to get the view? Where-

   2. GRGarrett Reisman16:39

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:39

      ... you really get a big window?

   4. GRGarrett Reisman16:41

      There's this huge window, uh, called the cupola that wasn't there in my first mission, but it was there in my second mission. I... So I got to see it the second time.

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:48

      They added a window?

   6. GRGarrett Reisman16:49

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:49

      (laughs)

   8. GRGarrett Reisman16:50

      It's not... Yeah. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:51

      (laughs)

   10. GRGarrett Reisman16:52

       It's like, "Hmm. Let's get the Sawzall and put the..." (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:55

       (laughs) Yeah, how do you add a window to the space station? (laughs)

   12. GRGarrett Reisman16:57

       Yeah, you just, you know, get the... No. It, it, it's a... It... They added a whole module in the-

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:02

       Oh.

   14. GRGarrett Reisman17:02

       ... module had, had this cupola, which is like a... a-

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:05

       Is that it right there? Is that what you're looking through?

   16. GRGarrett Reisman17:07

       That's exactly it. Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:08

       Wow.

   18. GRGarrett Reisman17:10

       So this-

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:10

       That's- that's pretty tight.

   20. GRGarrett Reisman17:11

       It's like a... It's a dome, and so you get the full 360 view and it's spectacular.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:17

       Wow.

   22. GRGarrett Reisman17:18

       And we tell the guys that don't get to do a spacewalk that this view is just as good as doing a spacewalk.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       But it's not.

   24. GRGarrett Reisman17:25

       It's not.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:26

       It's not.

   26. GRGarrett Reisman17:27

       But don't tell them because it, it makes them feel better. (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:29

       They're gonna listen.

   28. GRGarrett Reisman17:30

       Yeah. (laughs)

5. 17:31 – 21:34

   Becoming an EVA astronaut at 5'4": suit fit, pool training, and proving the doubters wrong

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:31

      What is a spacewalk like?

   2. GRGarrett Reisman17:33

      Oh, man. Well, first I gotta tell you that the likelihood of me doing a spacewalk was, like, slim to none. Uh, uh, when I first got there... They tell you that... when you're interviewing to become an astronaut, to go talk to some of the other astronauts, and so I went in there and we had this presentation about spacewalking and it seemed like to be the... like, the ultimate experience, just an incredible thing, and I wanted to do it bad. So I went and I'm talking to this one astronaut and he's a pretty tall guy. Um, for those of you that can't tell from the podcast, I'm f- I'm 5'4", okay? So I'm not, like... not, like, a real-... towering individual. Little vertically challenged, I guess. And I'm talking to this real tall astronaut, and I said, "You know, just heard about this spacewalking. It sounds awesome. I want ... I, I've been living in California. I've been doing, like, some rock climbing, some scuba diving. Maybe that'd make me a good candidate to do a spacewalk." And this tall astronaut looked at me, like right in the eye, and he laughed in my face. (laughs) He said-

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:35

      (laughs)

   4. GRGarrett Reisman18:35

      (laughs) He said, "What are you, four foot what?" (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:40

      How rude.

   6. GRGarrett Reisman18:41

      I know. My, my first, uh, thought was, you know, I thought astronauts were supposed to be polite, and this guy, like, was not being nice. But he was, he was actually just being brutally honest. You know, it was kinda tough love, and he was like, "Listen, the suit is one size fits all. You're gonna get in that thing, and it's gonna swallow you up, and you're not gonna be able to do anything. You're gonna be useless. So this is impossible. Forget about it." So I was kinda pissed off, but, uh, but I wasn't gonna let this guy stop me, right? So I get there. I got the job, and I go down for my first training exercise, which was in this huge pool we got in Houston. And it's like, uh, it's 100 feet wide, 200 feet long, 40 feet deep, and we can fit, like, most of the Space Station in there. And they get a crane that comes by. They put you in the suit, which weighs, you know, something like 175 pounds and stuff, with the- w- w- a- and, and then, uh, in addition, you, you're in it too. It picks you up, and they plop you in the water, and you float around, and it's kinda like being up in space. And that's how we train. So I get down there. It's my fir- very first exercise, and I could tell in the first five minutes of this training exercise, that big tall astronaut that laughed in my face was right. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:54

      (laughs)

   8. GRGarrett Reisman19:56

      I was not ... I was failing. I was, I was not doing well. I was, uh, I was screwing up. I was like ... It just wasn't going well.

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:03

      Why do they make a one size fits all suit? It seems-

   10. GRGarrett Reisman20:07

       They have the ability to alter the arms and the legs a little bit, and they have, um, they ... It, it's actually three different size upper torsos. There's a, there's a medium, a large, and an extra large. But that's it. It's limited, and, and because it costs a lot of money-

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:22

       Mm-hmm.

   12. GRGarrett Reisman20:22

       ... to make different sizes, so there's only ... The gloves they can tailor 'cause that's actually the most important thing. But I'm, I'm getting my butt kicked, you know? And I, and I got a, uh, uh, a needs improvement, which is a NASA nice way of saying, "You failed," all right? But I, I wasn't ready to give up. I went and, uh, I knew I was gonna need help. So I talked to, um, the people that make the suit, and they did some of those things. Uh, like they shortened up the arms. They fixed it up a little bit for me. And then I talked to the, the trainers, and we said, "Okay, yeah, we gotta think outside the box here. If we give you the standard procedure, you're gonna be at a disadvantage. But maybe we change your body positions. Instead of going straight onto the work site, maybe we come at the work site from the side, so we get more reach that way, and ..." We started working at it, and we got better and better. And the end of the story is that, uh, I got to ... Eventually I got the highest possible qualification to do the most complicated spacewalks we do, and I ended up doing three different spacewalks-

   13. JRJoe Rogan21:20

       Wow.

   14. GRGarrett Reisman21:20

       ... over the course of my career. And that big tall guy (laughs) that laughed in my face? He didn't get to do any.

   15. JRJoe Rogan21:28

       Oh.

   16. GRGarrett Reisman21:28

       (lips smacking) Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan21:28

       That's what you get for talking shit, sir. Look at you out there.

   18. GRGarrett Reisman21:32

       Yeah. That's me.

6. 21:34 – 27:14

   What spacewalking is really like: fear of falling, arm fatigue, diapers, and 'medieval armor mechanics'

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:34

      Now, what is that feeling like? 'Cause it's gotta feel insane when you're strapped to a, a space station that's floating around, and you're, you're just hanging by a cord.

   2. GRGarrett Reisman21:45

      Yeah. Well, you're holding on tight. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:47

      (laughs)

   4. GRGarrett Reisman21:47

      Yeah, and then you do have that safety tether that you see there, and, and, uh, uh, you know, they can prepare you for everything except for the visual. So when you, like, are in the pool, you're staring at the pool wall. When you get up there, and you see the whole Earth below you, some people go out there and get, like, a sense of fear of falling, um.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:07

      Mm-hmm.

   6. GRGarrett Reisman22:07

      But of course, you ... If you let go, you're not going anywhere.

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:10

      Right.

   8. GRGarrett Reisman22:10

      The space station's moving 17,500 miles an hour, but so are you. So it's kinda like doing a wing, wing walking on an airplane, but with no air to blow you off the wing. So when you look at the Space Station, it's, it's rock solid. But you look down, and some people get the fear of falling, and, and then they hold on real tight, which is a terrible, terrible mistake because we call it spacewalking, but you're not walking. You're, you're doing everything with your arms.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:36

      So you can wear your arms out?

   10. GRGarrett Reisman22:37

       Exactly.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:38

       Oh.

   12. GRGarrett Reisman22:38

       So then if you're, you're climbing, and you get, like, kinda totally thrashed-

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       Mm-hmm.

   14. GRGarrett Reisman22:42

       ... in your forearms, and it ... Now you get that claw hand, and it's useless.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:45

       Yeah.

   16. GRGarrett Reisman22:45

       You can do that, and you got like seven and a half hours to go.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:49

       (gasps)

   18. GRGarrett Reisman22:49

       And that's bad. So-

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:51

       So you're out there for seven and a half hours?

   20. GRGarrett Reisman22:54

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:55

       What if you have to pee?

   22. GRGarrett Reisman22:57

       Diaper.

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:58

       Diaper?

   24. GRGarrett Reisman22:58

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       Poop as well?

   26. GRGarrett Reisman23:00

       Try to avoid that. I, I ... (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:03

       You do your best?

   28. GRGarrett Reisman23:04

       I, uh, as a, as a scientist, I had to experiment, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan23:08

       Of course.

   30. GRGarrett Reisman23:09

       So during a training exercise, I waited till, like, the very end, just in case, you know? And I let one go, uh, right before they pulled me out of the pool one day, and I resolved never ever to do that again. (laughs)
7. 27:14 – 32:04

   EVA improvisation: when the connector won’t fit and thermal expansion saves a billion-dollar antenna

   1. GRGarrett Reisman27:14

      Yeah, but, you know, e- even if you're doing something that you rehearsed 10 times, and you think you got it all figured out, you still get surprised when you actually get up there. Uh, the big one that I remember is on, on my second spacewalk, we're connecting this dish antenna, and it had to go on top of this big boom, like a big pedestal, and there was a connector that had a, an electrical connector. And we had, uh, ab- like, an hour or so to connect the thing, and without it connected, it wasn't getting any power or data, uh, to that antenna. And it can get too cold, and this gazillion-dollar antenna could be a worthless hunk of junk if you take too long. You're on the clock, 'cause when it was in the shuttle, it was plugged in. It was getting its, its heaters were on, and now you gotta plug it back in and get the heaters back on in a certain amount of time. And so we're like, "Okay, we planned this. We trained this." We get up there, and the connectors won't go together. Like, it doesn't fit, and these two pieces of equipment sat next to each other for, like, a year in Florida in a, like, a warehouse, and nobody ever thought, "Well, oh, maybe we should make sure this thing fits." (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan28:15

      Oh, no.

   3. GRGarrett Reisman28:16

      Yeah, (laughs) and we get up there, like, "It doesn't fit." And we're like, "Crap," you know? What do we do?" So, uh, we're shoving, and we're shoving so hard, we're pushing on this thing so hard that the guys inside the space station said they, they feel the space station shaking. Like, that's how hard we were trying. And then we see little metal shavings come off, and one of those, they can get in the connectors. We're like, "That's bad." So we stopped and, uh, and then, and then this was, like, kinda my, my big hero moment. You know, like, in the movies, they, like, Brad Pitt saves the solar system and stuff.

   4. JRJoe Rogan28:49

      (laughs)

   5. GRGarrett Reisman28:49

      You know, this is my thing, all right? It's not that exciting, but, uh, I thought ... I, I, I had this idea. I said, "Hey," um ... The, the problem we were basically having was that the female side was too small and, uh, and the male side was too big for it to fit together. So I said to the, uh, one of my crew mates inside, I said, "Hey, how long till the sun comes up?" 'Cause, you know, it takes 90 minutes to go around the, the Earth, and every 45 minutes, the sun is either coming up or going down. So it can't be that long. And he goes, "Actually, about 10 minutes," 'cause we were behind the Earth and it was dark, and then in 10 minutes, the sun was gonna come up. I'm like, "Perfect." So I took the, um, the, the female side, um ... Oh, I'm s- I'm sorry. I took the, I took the male side, and I held it in my glove, okay? And I put it behind the structure away ... I knew the sun was gonna be coming from here, so I put it in the shadow, and I waited for the sun to come up and it hit the female side. And the temperature difference if you're in the sun or in the shade is, like, can be up to, like, 600 degrees Fahrenheit difference. So I let the sun hit it and warm it up, and then I took the male side quickly out of my, my insulated hand and away from the shadow, and I slid it in, and it p- went right in.

   6. JRJoe Rogan29:59

      Wow.

   7. GRGarrett Reisman30:00

      And that was it. Saved the day.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:02

      So you just deduced this just understanding how things change according to temperature?

   9. GRGarrett Reisman30:06

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:07

       Wow.

   11. GRGarrett Reisman30:07

       Thermal expansion.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:09

       Wow. Dude.

   13. GRGarrett Reisman30:10

       Yeah. So that's-

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:11

       That's incredible.

   15. GRGarrett Reisman30:12

       Uh, yeah, that was my thing.

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:13

       Did you yell at the people who manufactured it?

   17. GRGarrett Reisman30:15

       No.

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:15

       Okay.

   19. GRGarrett Reisman30:16

       ... we were so happy. We- I, I have video of this that you can... And, and, uh, we were, we were going, "Woo-hoo!" Giving each other high-fives in the suits, and we were doing like, "Woo!"

   20. JRJoe Rogan30:24

       (laughs)

   21. GRGarrett Reisman30:25

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:25

       Wow.

   23. GRGarrett Reisman30:26

       It, it was, uh- it was victory.

   24. JRJoe Rogan30:28

       That's a great victory, though. That really is, that you figured that out.

   25. GRGarrett Reisman30:30

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:31

       A lot of people would have been stuck up there. How the fuck did no one try it before they went up there?

   27. GRGarrett Reisman30:36

       I don't know. Maybe they did, and it just, like... Maybe they weren't... When it got up to space and, and it experienced those different temperatures, it, it, it expanded differently. I don't know for sure. But... So I'm not pointing any fingers, but it didn't work, and, uh... But we solved it. And that's, that's the kind of thing that you can't, like... Until we have AI or something that can really learn, we- you can't code that, so that's a real-

   28. JRJoe Rogan30:57

       Right.

   29. GRGarrett Reisman30:57

       ... benefit that humans bring to the-

   30. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       Ah.
8. 32:04 – 44:20

   Living under the sea: saturation diving, decompression, sharks, and the nightmare 'gazebo bathroom'

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:04

      Well, you've done underwater exploration as well.

   2. GRGarrett Reisman32:07

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:08

      What have you done there?

   4. GRGarrett Reisman32:10

      I lived for two weeks, uh, in the bottom of the sea.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:12

      Oh, Jesus.

   6. GRGarrett Reisman32:13

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:15

      (laughs) Oh, I get weirded out. I get weirded out just talking, just you saying that, like...

   8. GRGarrett Reisman32:20

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:20

      Two weeks at the bottom of the ocean?

   10. GRGarrett Reisman32:22

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:22

       How deep?

   12. GRGarrett Reisman32:23

       Uh, it was exactly, uh, 20,000 millimeters under the sea. It was about 60 feet, which works out to be about...

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:30

       Oh, only 60 feet? That's okay.

   14. GRGarrett Reisman32:31

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:32

       That doesn't freak me out too much. I thought you were gonna say, like, miles.

   16. GRGarrett Reisman32:35

       No.

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:35

       I'd start panicking. (laughs)

   18. GRGarrett Reisman32:36

       No, it's about 60 feet. (laughs) But, but the cool thing was we stayed there for weeks.

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:41

       Wow.

   20. GRGarrett Reisman32:41

       Now, now, if you're normal- if you're normally scuba diving, and you go down 60 feet, you have 60 minutes, and then you gotta come back up, or you- or you get too much nitrogen in your blood and you're gonna get bent, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       Mm-hmm.

   22. GRGarrett Reisman32:53

       So, uh, so we... If you... But it- it's not a problem if you just stay. The problem is, then if you stay, you build up all that nitrogen in your blood. Now you can't go back up. So, like, if you run out of air or you lose sight of your buddy or something, you can't go to the surface, 'cause within a couple hours you'll be dead.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:11

       Wow.

   24. GRGarrett Reisman33:12

       So you have to stay down there. And we used cave-diving techniques, and that we did a lot of training for to be safe. And we had redundant tanks, redundant manifolds, redundant, um, regulators. And we had valves that we can flip around so we can always make sure we can get air without ever having to, in an emergency, ever having to come up, 'cause coming up is not an option.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:34

       So, how do you eventually get out?

   26. GRGarrett Reisman33:37

       It's a freaky thing. It takes about a day. And what you do is you take... So we- we were living in this habitat, and it was kinda like a submarine on the bottom of the ocean, but it didn't have a motor so it just, like, stuck on the floor. It was like a big, like a big, uh, cylinder. And it had a hole cut in the side here, and, um, and the only thing that was keeping the ocean out was the air pressure inside.

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:59

       Whoa.

   28. GRGarrett Reisman33:59

       Kinda like taking a cup and flipping it over, putting it in a bathtub and trapping the air.

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:04

       Oh, God.

   30. GRGarrett Reisman34:05

       And you just scuba dive on down, and then you swim into that thing. And then if- then once you pop up in that hole, it's like you're in a swimming pool inside the habitat, and then you just step out into the habitat.
9. 44:20 – 48:51

   Why NASA relied on Soyuz: shuttle retirement, safety/cost tradeoffs, and the 2020 turning point

   1. JRJoe Rogan44:20

      And the Soyuz is, uh, a Russian craft?

   2. GRGarrett Reisman44:22

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan44:22

      So we have to use Russian crafts to get back from the Space Station?

   4. GRGarrett Reisman44:26

      Right now, we have to use Russian craft to go and come back.

   5. JRJoe Rogan44:28

      How weird is that?

   6. GRGarrett Reisman44:29

      It's not cool.

   7. JRJoe Rogan44:30

      What happened?

   8. GRGarrett Reisman44:32

      (smacks lips) All right. So, uh, it's not good. None of us are happy about this. But what happened was the shuttles... Uh, the shuttle, let me just say this, is a magnificent flying machine. I mean, what's really remarkable, if you go down to like the California Science Center and you look at Endeavor, (smacks lips) we designed that thing in the '70s. Like it doesn't even have a microwave. All right? It's got a con- uh, conventional, uh, convection oven. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan44:55

      Wow.

   10. GRGarrett Reisman44:56

       So it's like ancient technology that the, the flight computers on that thing, (smacks lips) your, your Apple Watch could run circles around them. I mean, it's like nothing. Um, they're, they're so primitive. But, uh, but it did, it, it took off like a rocket, it landed like an airplane. You could had... Uh, you could carry people, you could carry the Hubble Space Telescope in a trunk. You can, uh, do a spacewalk from it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:18

       There it is.

   12. GRGarrett Reisman45:18

       It has a robot arm that you see there. Um, yeah, there's Endeavor. So, that's my flight actually. That's, that's, uh, STS-123. In the middle, that's the robot that we put together.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       Wow.

   14. GRGarrett Reisman45:31

       But, um, but anyway, the, uh, it's, it's an incredible machine and we'll never design anything like it maybe ever again. Uh, certainly not anytime soon. So despite its technological in- uh, incredibleness, (laughs) for lack of a better word, uh, it had a couple key limitations. One was it's not that safe, you know, so we lost two of them, Challenger and Columbia. And, uh, we could talk about that. I knew, I knew the guys in Columbia and that was really, really, uh, rough. Um, and then the second thing was it's super expensive because it took so much maintenance, even though it was reusable, or most of it was. (smacks lips) It took so much maintenance, it took a standing army to keep it running. We're spending I think three or four billion dollars a year on the program and, and there's no way if we wanted to build something that was going to be more cost-effective or safer, there's no way we're going to get a plus up from Congress of like an additional four billion dollars a year to go do that. The only way really to make it happen was to stop flying the shuttle. So we, we took a very painful decision and we said, "Okay, we're gonna retire these things so we can make something new." And we know that there's going to be a gap period where we're not gonna have anything and it's gonna suck. But the good news is, uh, is and the, the, the, the great timing about this conversation right now is that gap ends this year.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:48

       Really?

   16. GRGarrett Reisman46:49

       Yeah. 2020 is when that painful period is put to rest.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:53

       And what, what happens?

   18. GRGarrett Reisman46:55

       We're gonna have a SpaceX Dragon.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:56

       SpaceX Dragon?

   20. GRGarrett Reisman46:58

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:58

       That's a great name.

   22. GRGarrett Reisman46:59

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:00

       I love it.

   24. GRGarrett Reisman47:01

       Yeah. We're gonna have a brand new ship. And not only the Dragon, we're gonna have the Boeing, uh, Starliner. And, uh, and then we have two other private companies that are gonna be launching people this year. Uh, yeah, yeah, the... It's incredible these four companies all trying to put humans into space with private companies-

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:16

       Yeah.

   26. GRGarrett Reisman47:17

       ... and the schedules are, are just aligning so it's all... Looks like it all will happen in 2020.

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:22

       Now, they're, they've done some people, civilian trips up into space, right?

   28. GRGarrett Reisman47:29

       They have and it, that's all happened becau- by paying the Russians-

   29. JRJoe Rogan47:32

       That's what it is?

   30. GRGarrett Reisman47:33

       ... for rides, yeah.
10. 48:51 – 1:01:33

    Crew Dragon safety and launch realities: abort tests, range safety, and why rockets launch over the ocean

    1. JRJoe Rogan48:51

       And so, they punch out and abort, and then are you in, uh, like a capsule? Like, what are you in?

    2. GRGarrett Reisman48:58

       In a capsule. And then from that point on, it's kind of like a normal landing. If you survive the, the giant, uh, you know, yank, I think, uh, they were pulling something like five or six Gs, I think, when they, when they separate or maybe even more, that system, when they pulled off. And then, um, and then, uh, uh, and then at that point, you're falling in the capsule and then the parachutes come out.

    3. JRJoe Rogan49:18

       Mm.

    4. GRGarrett Reisman49:18

       And, uh, and, uh, uh, from that point on, it's kind of like a normal landing.

    5. JRJoe Rogan49:22

       Oh. The G's gotta be crazy, right? I've, I've did, um, a flight with the Blue Angels once.

    6. GRGarrett Reisman49:27

       Oh, yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan49:27

       And (sighs) I think we went seven and a half Gs or something like that. It wasn't that, that bad. But it's so weird.

    8. GRGarrett Reisman49:34

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan49:34

       When, when you see the consciousness closing in, like an elevator door. You see the blackness on the sides.

    10. GRGarrett Reisman49:39

        You get the soda straw thing going.

    11. JRJoe Rogan49:40

        Yeah. Ooh. It's very weird. So that, like, in space, like to get ejected, or I guess actually not in space, in the atmosphere. And do you have to climb into that thing before you can abort? Or are you-

    12. GRGarrett Reisman49:52

        No.

    13. JRJoe Rogan49:52

        ... in it already?

    14. GRGarrett Reisman49:53

        There's no time. It, it, it's a, it's a rocket. In, in that case, it's a rocket that on the top that pulls the capsule away from the booster.

    15. JRJoe Rogan49:58

        Oh, wow.

    16. GRGarrett Reisman49:59

        Um, just like we did with Apollo and Gemini.

    17. JRJoe Rogan50:01

        Mm-hmm.

    18. GRGarrett Reisman50:02

        Now, on Dragon and also on Starliner, we've got much more advanced systems that are built into the, into the capsule. And so they, they, they're, they push. Instead of having a tower up on top that pulls you away, they have engines under here that, that push and fly away.

    19. JRJoe Rogan50:18

        Mm.

    20. GRGarrett Reisman50:18

        And the nice thing about that is, the, the tower, you actually, if you don't need it, you have to, you have to throw it away. You have to jettison it. But that's kind of like needing to use your ejection seat every single time you go for a flight because if you ... for some reason, if it doesn't jettison, you're dead. You, you can't get the parachutes out with that thing stuck up on top. So that's like a failure mode that if you put the engines down here, you don't have to worry about that.

    21. JRJoe Rogan50:43

        Mm.

    22. GRGarrett Reisman50:43

        Plus you carry it with you the whole time, so you could use those powerful engines to really get quickly away from the booster, like the Falcon 9, if it's having a bad day. You can use those-

    23. JRJoe Rogan50:52

        You mean if it's blowing up?

    24. GRGarrett Reisman50:54

        Yeah. Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan50:55

        (laughs)

    26. GRGarrett Reisman50:55

        It's a bad day. (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan50:56

        (laughs) That's a seriously bad day.

    28. GRGarrett Reisman50:58

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan50:58

        What does it look like? Can you pull up the SpaceX ... What's it? Dragon what?

    30. GRGarrett Reisman51:02

        The Crew Dragon.
11. 1:01:33 – 1:07:18

    Garrett’s SpaceX role and the case for public-private partnership

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:01:33

       And now, with SpaceX... What is your role with SpaceX?

    2. GRGarrett Reisman1:01:37

       So I left NASA in 2011 and I went down and met with Elon and I said, "Hey, I really like what you're doing here. Can I help? And, uh, what can I..." And he gave me a job. So I went, and I left NASA and I came here and I worked there for seven years. Did a bunch of different things. Uh, eventually became our Director of Space Operations. So my team was responsible for operating mission control at SpaceX and controlling... We have another Dragon capsule that we use for cargo, to take cargo, and we've been doing that for a long time, up to the space station and back. And so we would operate it in mission control, but we're also, we're designing the- the- the crew one that we showed you. So we were coming up with the procedures and all the rules of how we're gonna use that thing, and, and, and meeting all of NASA's requirements and helping to provide input to the guys designing the displays and the suits and the controls and the seats and all the stuff you need for people. And, so that was, that was... You know, I did that for quite a, quite a long time.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:02:31

       Wh- what are your thoughts on this, w- what's happening now with space travel, where it's transferring into the public sector?

    4. GRGarrett Reisman1:02:38

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:02:38

       Or the private sector, rather. Instead of being something that the government handles, now it's private companies. Is that a good thing?

    6. GRGarrett Reisman1:02:44

       It's a great thing.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:02:45

       Is it?

    8. GRGarrett Reisman1:02:46

       Uh, yeah, because first of all, it's not quite that black and white. Um, in- in the media, it's all portrayed as commercial space-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:02:52

       Right.

    10. GRGarrett Reisman1:02:52

        ... and like, "These private companies are taking over." The truth is, at least for the human orbital space flight that we're doing at SpaceX and that Boeing is doing with, with their vehicle, it's a par- it's a public/private partnership.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:03:04

        Ah.

    12. GRGarrett Reisman1:03:04

        And so NASA's working very closely with both those companies, and we're working together. And it- in a way, it's not really that different from the way it's always been. You know, like NASA didn't have a NASA factory that built the Saturn V rocket. It was built here by, like McDonnell Douglas, and North American Rockwell built the, if I remember right, North American built the, uh, built the command module, and- and the Lunar Lander was built by Grumman. So those were all private companies. They're contractors, but they're still private companies. And, um, what's happening now is just a slight change to the relationship between NASA and the private companies, where NASA's not micromanaging quite as much as they used to. They're saying, "Okay, here's our top-level requirements. We want you to get four people up and down to the space station." That's a bit of a simplification because actually, the, the requirements document is like... There are thousands of, of requirements. (laughs) But they, but they don't go down and tell you how to meet each requirement. They leave it up to you. So now SpaceX has a lot more room to innovate than, like North American Rockwell did when, when they built, um, the vehicles back during Apollo. So, uh, that, that, and the other thing that's different is the, the funding. The way that NASA's paying, it's firm-fixed price. You know, ev- all these things, like the space shuttle, when we build an aircraft carrier, it's, it's cost plus contracting, which has been terribly abused and- and it's been horrible for the US taxpayer. It, what it says to the company is, "You can, it could cost whatever it costs. That's what we'll pay. And in fact, we'll give you a profit as a percentage of the cost." So like, your in- your incentive as a company is like, to make the cost as high as you can so your profit is high as it can be.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:43

        Oh, that's ridiculous.

    14. GRGarrett Reisman1:04:44

        Yeah. So it's not cool, and, and, uh, but it, they had to do it that way in, like during World War II is when it started because, like nobody knew how much it was gonna cost to build a P-51 Mustang 'cause nobody did one before.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:55

        Mm.

    16. GRGarrett Reisman1:04:56

        So they came up with this mechanism, but now it's, it's kinda been abused. Now we're using it to do things that we've done before. Um, and then the third thing is that the- the companies own the intellectual property. (clicks tongue) So what that means is, like, uh, uh, uh, Rockwell, th- they built the space shuttle, couldn't like, build a new space shuttle. Like, build like, Space Shuttle Enterprise or something-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:05:18

        Mm-hmm.

    18. GRGarrett Reisman1:05:18

        ... and then go sell tickets on it.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:05:20

        (laughs)

    20. GRGarrett Reisman1:05:20

        They weren't allowed to, but we can. So we can... We're gonna build this Dragon. We're gonna take... Bob Behnken and Doug Hurley, two friends of mine, are gonna be the first astronauts to ride it to the space station. And once we meet our NASA, uh, NASA's our number one customer, they're paying the- the bills, so once they are satisfied, we can then go make another one and sell tickets, and take, you know, private individuals. So really, that's the- the key difference, and I really think that 2020, we're gonna look back at 2020 as the, as the year that everything changed.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:52

        Really?

    22. GRGarrett Reisman1:05:52

        Yeah. Because the, all those dreams of science fiction, like being able to take your vacations around the rings of Saturn and like, all the, like private space stations, all that kinda stuff that we grew up hoping would happen when we were older, I think it's really finally starting. 'Cause this is, this is the beginning of that infrastructure, that- that- that private sector commercial infrastructure, and- and- and ability to actually get it done.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:06:18

        We're always talking about how wrong they got the future in like Space: 1999.

    24. GRGarrett Reisman1:06:22

        (laughs) Yeah. (laughs)

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:06:23

        Those... (laughs) Remember, remember that television show?

    26. GRGarrett Reisman1:06:25

        I like that show.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:06:25

        (laughs)

    28. GRGarrett Reisman1:06:25

        I watch that all the time, yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:06:26

        But all those shows, like even, I think Blade Runner was like now, right? Didn't we discuss this? Like last year? 2019? Like, we- we got everything wrong-

    30. GRGarrett Reisman1:06:38

        Yeah.
12. 1:07:18 – 1:20:01

    Mars and beyond: radiation, storm shelters, partial gravity unknowns, and making methane on Mars

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:07:18

       Yeah, like how far do you think we are? Like if you had a, a wide timeline of like literally being able to go on another planet.

    2. GRGarrett Reisman1:07:26

       Well, you know, uh, well, going to Mars is something we could do-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:07:30

       Now.

    4. GRGarrett Reisman1:07:31

       ... uh, in, in, in a decade if we really, really, really wanted to.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:07:34

       But Elon keeps saying that.

    6. GRGarrett Reisman1:07:36

       I think he's right. I mean, it's, it's not, uh, a question of technology. The, the big missing piece I think in, in understanding, uh, uh, about what that would be like is, is the effect of radiation on the, on the human body. There's engineering solutions we could come up with for that, but we-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:07:51

       This is for the prolonged journey, the six-

    8. GRGarrett Reisman1:07:53

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:07:53

       ... six-month journey?

    10. GRGarrett Reisman1:07:54

        Once you start talking about go... Well, so, so right now, like on the Space Station, I took a bigger radiation hit than I would have if I stayed at home. But-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:08:03

        How much of a hit?

    12. GRGarrett Reisman1:08:04

        Uh, uh, you know, the, the amount of dose I took, uh, was not that much. It's like, um, (clicks tongue) uh, like a, a tenth of a sievert or something. I mean, it's like r- it was pretty-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:08:14

        What's a sievert?

    14. GRGarrett Reisman1:08:15

        A sievert, if you take one sievert, uh, then you're increasing your chance of getting cancer, depending on your age and gender, about a couple additional percent.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:08:23

        Can you mitigate that with supplements? Like is there iodine that you take or something along those lines?

    16. GRGarrett Reisman1:08:28

        There, there's some, uh, you know, maybe antioxidants, but I think that that's, that's not a panacea, that's not gonna fix this problem. It could help maybe.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:08:36

        They say take iodine tablets, right, if you're exposed to radiation? Isn't that, like, something that they, uh, recommend?

    18. GRGarrett Reisman1:08:42

        Yeah, for like, uh, for like nuclear reactors or, um-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:08:45

        Mm-hmm, yeah.

    20. GRGarrett Reisman1:08:46

        ... uh, and, and all that. Uh, but, um, I think that protects, that protects the function of some, one, one of the organs, I can't remember. But it's not gonna solve, that's not gonna solve this problem. But you can shield yourself with... Anything that has hydrogen in it is a pretty good shield, so water is great. Like when I was on the Space Station, I, I put a big, uh, water jug around my head. (laughs)

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:09:07

        Really?

    22. GRGarrett Reisman1:09:08

        (laughs) Just I figured it couldn't hurt. And, uh, uh, and then like, uh, liquid hydrogen or even plastic that's made, that's derived from hydrogen, uh, is, is pretty good shielding.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:09:19

        Oh, okay. So you could have like conceivably a, a light plastic suit that you wear that could shield you from a lot of the radiation on the way to Mars?

    24. GRGarrett Reisman1:09:26

        There's actually a company in Israel that w- is teaming with NASA-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:09:29

        Hmm.

    26. GRGarrett Reisman1:09:29

        ... that's gonna fly these like vests on, uh, to try to shield the people. You can also put it in the hull and, or you can have just a storm shelter, 'cause there's basically... Once y- w- when we're on the Space Station, we're above all the atmosphere, but we're still below the magnetic field of the Earth, so we still get, we still enjoy a lot of protection from radiation.

Episode duration: 2:12:12