Joe Rogan Experience #1437 - Stephen Dubner

Joe Rogan 0:00 ... ready, young Jamie.

Narrator 0:00 Three, two-

Joe Rogan 0:02 Here we go. (slaps desk) How are you, sir?

Stephen Dubner 0:04 I'm great, thanks.

Joe Rogan 0:05 (laughs) Good. Nice to meet you.

Stephen Dubner 0:07 Nice to meet you.

Joe Rogan 0:07 Um, we were talking before, uh, about Adam Curry, who was just here, who has these crazy ear enhancements that are these, uh, software-based, so he can tweak it and change levels and stuff like that. And you were saying that you also have h- hearing, but you get it from rock and roll.

Stephen Dubner 0:22 Yeah, I, I mean, honestly, I've never been tested. I just know that when I'm out eating with my family or friends, that everybody can hear everything, and I can't hear anything. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:31 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 0:31 So, uh, but no, I, yeah, I played r- loud rock music for, mm, six, seven, eight, nine years. And, uh, yeah, it- it- it- it does what they say it does. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:41 Yeah, they- they know what they're doing-

Stephen Dubner 0:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:44 ... those, those people that tell you not to do that.

Stephen Dubner 0:45 But look, I like the technology. Like, I have older relatives who have a hearing aid, or whatever they're called now, hearing enhancement devices that are, like, lightyears better than they used to be.

Joe Rogan 0:55 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen Dubner 0:56 So I figure if I can hold out a couple more years, mine are gonna, like, be so good they'll take out the garbage too.

Joe Rogan 1:00 Well, the ones that Adam has sound pretty fucking amazing. Um, he said it, it just sounds incredible and that he can actually tune into people that are 50 feet away, 50 feet away having a conversation, he can hear them.

Stephen Dubner 1:10 And can you tune out people you don't like?

Joe Rogan 1:11 That's a good question. I bet there is a way. I bet he ... Well, he has various settings, but I bet there's, like, a tone the world out setting.

Stephen Dubner 1:19 (laughs) I don't need to tone the world, there are just some people-

Joe Rogan 1:21 Sometimes.

Stephen Dubner 1:22 ... you know?

Joe Rogan 1:22 Yeah. Have you used any of those AirPods that have the noise-canceling technology?

Stephen Dubner 1:27 Oh, uh, not AirPods, but I wear Bose noise-cancelers-

Joe Rogan 1:30 The head- headphones?

Stephen Dubner 1:31 ... almost-

Joe Rogan 1:31 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 1:31 ... every day. Um, I wear them a lot. Oh, you know, when I started, uh, as a journalist in newsrooms, uh, this was, whatever, early, late 80s, early 90s, um, I didn't ... Like, a- a newsroom is an open place, and a lot of people back then were on the phone doing your reporting. It was pre-internet reporting, right? And, uh, I didn't ... You're a writer, you're writing and you're editing, and I, I didn't understand how people could think with all this din going on. I c- I couldn't do it.

Joe Rogan 1:59 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 1:59 So I started wearing just the good foam earplugs. They're made by, uh, Flance, I think is the brand that I use. They're kinda non-tapered, and they're very thick. And if you compress them and put them in, it'll block out, like, you know, 70, 80%. So I've been shutting out the world for, like, 25 years now.

Joe Rogan 2:13 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 2:13 So when the, the noise-cancelers got good, I- I- I've embraced them, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:18 Yeah, some people need it though, right? They need that sound, like at a coffee shop. Like, they love to go to coffee shops, and all the milling around actually helps their creativity.

Stephen Dubner 2:25 You know, we're doing an episode right now, Freakonomics Radio, on noise, basically as ... You know, kinda we got into it l- thinking about noise pollution, right? 'Cause noise is a funny thing. It's what economists call an externality, a negative externality, meaning you can produce it, and it affects me, but you- I don't- I can't charge you for it. (laughs) Right?

Joe Rogan 2:45 Right. Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 2:45 It's like pollution. If you have a big factory, your pollution goes up, it blows over to someone else, that's an externality on them. So noise is that. But what's really interesting is that there's a huge variance in how different people receive and perceive noise, as you just said. So some people really need it and want it. For some, it's a burden. And then there's all these rather (laughs) weird intricacies of noise, like have you heard of misophonia? Do you know what that is?

Joe Rogan 3:14 I have heard of it, but I don't remember what it means.

Stephen Dubner 3:15 It is, um, a- a- an intensely negative reaction when you hear other people chewing or their mouths making any sound.

Joe Rogan 3:23 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 3:24 And it can be debilitating for people who have it. But and then there's something called ... I'm gonna get it wrong. AMSR, ASMR?

Joe Rogan 3:29 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 3:29 You know that? Like ... Okay.

Joe Rogan 3:30 Yeah, there's all these videos online with that.

Stephen Dubner 3:32 Right, right, right. Yeah, so that's-

Joe Rogan 3:34 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 3:34 So noise is a s-

Joe Rogan 3:34 What does that stand for though?

Stephen Dubner 3:35 Uh, I- I- I can, I, I'd have to look it up. Um ...

Narrator 3:39 S-

Joe Rogan 3:39 He knows.

Narrator 3:40 Automated sense something.

Joe Rogan 3:41 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 3:41 Or someone would have to look it up.

Joe Rogan 3:43 Someone, yeah, but-

Narrator 3:44 Response.

Joe Rogan 3:45 ... w- if someone screams in your ear unexpectedly, and it hurts your ear, that is a form of assault.

Stephen Dubner 3:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:52 Right? You don't think of it that way, but if some- if like, if you saw a girl, and she was standing there, and a guy ran up to her and just, "Waah!" in her ear, and she's like, "Aah!" And she f- she like falls down 'cause her ear hurts.

Stephen Dubner 4:03 I agree.

Joe Rogan 4:04 You can do that with sound.

Stephen Dubner 4:05 What about when airports play CNN at blast volume?

Joe Rogan 4:09 Yeah, that's another one.

Stephen Dubner 4:09 I mean, is that a form of assault? Borderline?

Joe Rogan 4:11 What kind of sweet deal does CNN have with airports, right?

Stephen Dubner 4:14 Mm.

Joe Rogan 4:14 They're like-

Stephen Dubner 4:14 I think it kinda made everybody hate CNN, blasting when you don't wanna hear it.

Joe Rogan 4:18 A little bit. That's right, right? It, it shows that it's a little bit annoying. But it's also, it's like, w- it's like, you don't wanna be looking at all the world's problems when you're about to get on the most stressful thing that a person does, right?

Stephen Dubner 4:29 (laughs) You, you have a flying, y- you, uh, you have to self-medicate pretty heavily before flying, I understand?

Joe Rogan 4:33 No, I don't have to.

Stephen Dubner 4:36 You enjoy it.

Joe Rogan 4:36 I enjoy it.

Stephen Dubner 4:37 You enjoy it more.

Joe Rogan 4:37 Yeah. Well, this is what I, the way I think of it. Um, on a plane, one of two things gets ... Either I get some work done or I get some entertainment. I watch a movie on the laptop, or I'll get some writing in.

Stephen Dubner 4:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 4:48 Or I can get really, really high, and then get on that ... and just freak the fuck out-

Stephen Dubner 4:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:55 ... and, and make it, but go through a roller coaster ride of thoughts and, and a lot of times, I'll wind up writing too, you know, if I-

Stephen Dubner 5:02 Wait, when you get high, you have a, uh, a worse experience on the plane, though, you're saying?

Joe Rogan 5:06 No, no, no, it's not worse. It's just scary. It's not worse.

Stephen Dubner 5:09 And that- and scary is not worse.

Joe Rogan 5:11 No, because there's benefits to it.

Stephen Dubner 5:13 Huh.

Joe Rogan 5:13 There's benefits in terms of, like, creativity, and then insight. And, like, just a not- I- I have a whole bit about it. But it is based on the truth. Like, I oftentimes take a heavy dose of edibles and then get on a plane.

Stephen Dubner 5:23 In order to intentionally put yourself in a state-

Joe Rogan 5:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen Dubner 5:27 ... that can be somewhat negative, but also creativity? But also ...

Joe Rogan 5:31 I don't, as I see, I don't use that word negative.

Stephen Dubner 5:32 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 5:33 I don't think of it as negative. Even when I'm freaking out. Like, if I'm sitting in the chair, and I'm like, "Whoo!" And with- uh, you know, I'm looking out the window, we're flying, and I'm realizing we're 30,000 feet in the air. And I'm, you know, really fucking high.

Stephen Dubner 5:43 Is this ... Uh, so I'm not a, like a roller coaster person. But is this a s-

Joe Rogan 5:48 I don't like roller coasters.

Stephen Dubner 5:48 But is this a similar kind of ... Like, you put your, intentionally put yourself in a scenario where you're gonna heighten some senses? Is that the idea?

Joe Rogan 5:54 No, because I think a roller coaster is just fun. Right? It's just goofs. This is a- an essential thing you're doing. You're traveling to a place where you're going to. And as you're doing it, you're- you're incredibly vulnerable. Right? You're immobilized in a chair while you're going 500 miles an hour in the sky. Right? And you're like, "Whoa." Already, you're like a little weirded out if you look out the window. But now, when you're really, really, really high, it puts you in this very strange state. And you start thinking about your life, and you start thinking about how you talk to people.

Stephen Dubner 6:23 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:23 And you start thinking about things that you've learned and h- uh, m-... documentaries that you find fascinating, you start dwelling on weird things. And then, you know, oftentimes, I'll either watch something or I'll start writing. So I get something very productive out of what would be dead time. It makes me, it fires up my, whatever it is that creates creativity for me, whatever the, the source of it. For me, for some reason, it gets enhanced oftentimes by being on a plane on edibles.

Stephen Dubner 6:51 How, uh, predictable though, is the experience?

Joe Rogan 6:54 Unpredictable.

Stephen Dubner 6:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 6:55 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 6:55 So is that not a little, uh, frightening?

Joe Rogan 6:57 Yes. (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 6:57 Or no?

Joe Rogan 6:58 Yes, that's the fun part. (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 7:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:00 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 7:00 You're a lunatic.

Joe Rogan 7:01 A little bit.

Stephen Dubner 7:02 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 7:02 But it's not, nobody gets hurt, that's the thing.

Stephen Dubner 7:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:04 It's not like a real fear.

Stephen Dubner 7:06 And in the back of your mind, you know, this is just a, a-

Joe Rogan 7:09 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 7:09 ... a physiological, chemical response. And I'm gonna-

Joe Rogan 7:13 Exactly. Exactly. And, uh-

Stephen Dubner 7:15 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:16 ... I mean, that's what paranoia really is, marijuana-based paranoia, if I had to guess. It's a hyperawareness that you're not, not comfortable with. And so in taking in all these things, it's like, if you just can't settle in, you're recognizing every threat that's around you all the time. The fact that a rock could come out of the sky, the fact that the, the tsunami could hit at any moment, the earth could shake. What if a super volcano blows up? All those things that you know to be real, all of a sudden, get dragged into the forefront.

Stephen Dubner 7:40 You put yourself back into caveman mode.

Joe Rogan 7:42 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 7:42 Like every-

Joe Rogan 7:43 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 7:43 ... rustle of grass is the lion-

Joe Rogan 7:45 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 7:45 ... who's coming to eat.

Joe Rogan 7:45 Exactly.

Stephen Dubner 7:46 All right. Let me ask you a question.

Joe Rogan 7:47 Exactly.

Stephen Dubner 7:47 Sorry, I realize I'm not supposed to be asking you questions.

Joe Rogan 7:49 No, you are-

Stephen Dubner 7:49 But I'm gonna ask you-

Joe Rogan 7:49 ... we're talking, man. Let's do, do this.

Stephen Dubner 7:50 All right. Here's a question. Um, let's say, for people who don't use drugs-

Joe Rogan 7:54 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 7:55 ... right? But they hear you say this and like, they say, "Wow, that is..." I recognize the value of putting yourself in a place emotionally, cognitively, kinda unleashing yourself or maybe putting yourself in a new place where you're gonna have thoughts, big thoughts, maybe scary thoughts. Is there a way to do that, that you know of? Uh, without drugs?

Joe Rogan 8:15 Yeah, we were just talking about that with Adam, in fact. Uh, we were talking about holotropic breathing, and he has had some experiences with holotropic breathing. It's a, like a meditation-based breathing routine that, uh, i- if, for whatever reason, it activates psychedelic chemicals in your brain and you can really trip out. And he was talking about how he's flying for like a half an hour. And I've had various friends do it. I've yet to experience it. Various-

Stephen Dubner 8:37 You've tried it?

Joe Rogan 8:38 No, yet. I've yet to experience it. But I've had various friends who've done it, who have had spectacular experiences, like, like full-blown mushroom experiences for several minutes.

Stephen Dubner 8:48 And is it guaranteed? Like if you do the breathing-

Joe Rogan 8:50 I don't think it's a-

Stephen Dubner 8:50 ... is it guaranteed to get you to that state or no?

Joe Rogan 8:52 No. I think you have to learn how to get there.

Stephen Dubner 8:54 Not as reliable as drugs then?

Joe Rogan 8:55 Right. And also physically demanding. Like, I think it takes a long time. I think you have to work yourself up into this state where the stuff starts to happen, and you also have to probably follow some routine that's tried and true. I don't-

Stephen Dubner 9:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:08 ... I don't know what that routine is.

Stephen Dubner 9:09 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:09 But I do know that people that I trust, including people like Adam, s- super smart guys, will, will tell you that for them, it gave them the same experience as, uh, like taking a drug.

Stephen Dubner 9:20 All right. I'm gonna look it up.

Joe Rogan 9:21 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 9:21 'Cause I'm not big on drugs. I don't know why, just not.

Joe Rogan 9:23 'Cause you're smart.

Stephen Dubner 9:24 No, I'm, uh, I'm not. I'm also not judgmental about it. I've, I've, I've-

Joe Rogan 9:28 I f- I know, but no issue.

Stephen Dubner 9:29 ... I'm not saying that y- you would be dumb to do 'em, but I say you're a smart guy. So if you're a smart guy and you see drugs, you see a lot of people have problems with drugs and you're fine with reality. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:37 You don't need 'em.

Stephen Dubner 9:37 I mean, I smoked dope in college and it just-

Joe Rogan 9:40 It's not like you're a cop.

Stephen Dubner 9:40 I mean, also the dope was... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:42 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 9:43 "Believe me, son, I smoked dope."

Joe Rogan 9:45 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 9:45 Uh, (laughs) but, uh, also the dope was a different caliber then.

Joe Rogan 9:49 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 9:49 It wasn't very good.

Joe Rogan 9:50 Right.

Stephen Dubner 9:50 It wasn't very, uh, predictable and it just, I, I just had a bad experiences.

Joe Rogan 9:54 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 9:54 So whatever. I dr- I like o- I like whiskey.

Joe Rogan 9:57 Me too.

Stephen Dubner 9:58 And I like the predictability of like, uh, even like the difference between if I drink my Laphroaig is my favorite scotch, like, and if there's not that and there's another.

Joe Rogan 10:06 That's that stuff we had the other day, isn't it?

Narrator 10:07 We had Lagavulin.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Stephen Dubner 10:10 Lagavulin's good. Lagavulin's good.

Narrator 10:11 They're very close.

Stephen Dubner 10:12 Laphroaig, it's the-

Narrator 10:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:14 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 10:14 It's the PD family. Some people don't like the PD stuff.

Joe Rogan 10:17 Oh, PD.

Stephen Dubner 10:18 P-D-G-E-T-Y.

Joe Rogan 10:19 It was the first time I think I've ever had anything like that.

Stephen Dubner 10:20 Oh, you've never had a-

Joe Rogan 10:21 It was the other day.

Stephen Dubner 10:22 Uh, you've never-

Joe Rogan 10:22 The bottle was half empty though, so I don't know what the fuck happened. I was probably so drunk that I was drinking it and not even realizing it was PD.

Stephen Dubner 10:27 That's the nice thing about scotch though, you can sip it-

Joe Rogan 10:30 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 10:30 ... kinda forever.

Joe Rogan 10:31 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 10:31 If you're, you know-

Joe Rogan 10:33 That stuff too, I would imagine, is even better when you're gently sipping it because you're dealing with this really exotic flavor.

Stephen Dubner 10:40 It's also good for you.

Joe Rogan 10:41 Is it really? Are you doctor?

Stephen Dubner 10:42 Well, let me rephrase. It's not bad for you.

Joe Rogan 10:44 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 10:44 In terms of alcohol, I mean, beer... Look, it depends how crazy you wanna be about caloric consumption and so on. But beer has a lot of calories.

Joe Rogan 10:52 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 10:53 Wine has a lot of sugar, and whiskey is actually, um, pretty, uh, pretty low cal, low sugar, just high alcohol content, so the sugar works a little bit differently, but, uh, but no, my doctor fully approves of a couple drinks a night.

Joe Rogan 11:06 Yeah. There's been research that shows that a couple of drinks a night for most people is actually probably-

Stephen Dubner 11:10 In fact, my doctor, who's a researcher as well, she said-

Joe Rogan 11:13 Beautiful.

Stephen Dubner 11:13 ... that if you look at longevity, um, the people who have the l- the shorter life expectancies are the people who drink a lot, not a surprise, and none.

Joe Rogan 11:24 Ooh.

Stephen Dubner 11:25 So it's the people who drink from like one and a half to maybe two and a half, maybe a little bit more drinks a day, have the longest life expectancy. She doesn't know though whether it's the teetotalers, why do they live long, shorter? It may be because they can't alleviate the stress, maybe. You know, it could be that alcohol does have physiological benefits, we don't know, but the message seems to be that (laughs) everybody should drink a little bit.

Joe Rogan 11:48 Yeah, there's gotta be a benefit in relaxation. There's gotta be. You know, uh, I was listening to your podcast on loneliness.

Stephen Dubner 11:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:56 And, um, and, and statistics. It's really good. I, I love your podcast-

Stephen Dubner 11:59 Thanks.

Joe Rogan 11:59 ... by the way.

Stephen Dubner 12:00 Appreciate it.

Joe Rogan 12:00 I'm a big fan.

Stephen Dubner 12:00 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 12:01 And, um, and that one, you know, it l- talking about loneliness and, you know, that whole correlation, how they came to the conclusion that it's like 15 cigarettes a day. But that a bad feeling, that a bad feeling is bad for you, and a good feeling is probably good for you. And the little trade-off health wise, like, I kinda feel like you can get, make that up in the gym and like you could achieve like a good balance.

Stephen Dubner 12:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:22 There's something about like having a drink every now and then, it's nice.

Stephen Dubner 12:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:25 You wanna hug people, you wanna have smiles.

Stephen Dubner 12:28 Agree.

Joe Rogan 12:28 It relaxes, you know.

Stephen Dubner 12:29 Also, you know, I-This is a phrase that younger people will not remember, but a- actually, I can't remember it either. So, um, I think it's th- the social lubricant.

Joe Rogan 12:38 Yes. Yes.

Stephen Dubner 12:38 That's what they used to call alcohol, right?

Joe Rogan 12:40 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 12:40 And so the fact is, is that a lot of people have a lot of trouble communicating with other people, period.

Joe Rogan 12:46 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 12:46 Whether it's loved ones, you either say, "You're too candid." Or, "You're not candid enough." With strangers ... So a lot of people have a hard time being with other people kind of in the way they want to. And if alcohol can act as that kinda take the edge off, as they say-

Joe Rogan 13:00 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 13:01 ... it's an interesting ... But I'm always looking for ways ... I'm always trying to isolate the places or the circumstances where I get good ideas. And the problem is, it's very ... it's unpredictable. Walking is the one thing that I found ... A- and the fact is, is that writers throughout history, a lot of creative people throughout history have, have embraced walking.

Joe Rogan 13:22 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 13:22 Now, in the old days, it was one of the few things that you kinda could do.

Joe Rogan 13:26 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 13:26 You know, you c- you weren't gonna go out and ... Well, I guess you coulda played golf, or whatever. But people have been walking for a long time, and they say that there's something about what the brain and body do in concert with each other on a walk, which is you're kinda mapping, you're kinda decoding, you're kinda figuring, but you're also getting some physiolog- physiological stimulation. And I find that's one that's pretty good. But I wish there was a, a thing I could do to make the good ideas flow-

Joe Rogan 13:52 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 13:52 ... because that's the hard part.

Joe Rogan 13:53 I don't ... I think if there was a thing, other than show up and start riding, if there really was a thing, it would cheapen whatever the fuck it is (clicking sound) that makes you have those weird thoughts that come across. Like, where'd that come from?

Stephen Dubner 14:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:03 A gift from the heavens.

Stephen Dubner 14:05 Yeah. No, the mystery is beautiful.

Joe Rogan 14:07 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 14:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:08 Yeah. Uh, but walking, to me, I didn't really walk until really recently. I didn't go on hikes or anything till really recently. I usually would run. And running, a lot of times, you know, you're just so tired, you're not having any good ideas. You're just thinking like, "I gotta get to the top of this hill."

Stephen Dubner 14:23 How long you lived in LA?

Joe Rogan 14:25 Since '94.

Stephen Dubner 14:26 And before that?

Joe Rogan 14:27 Uh, I lived in ... This is my whole thing. Sa- New Jersey until I was seven, San Francisco from seven to 11, Florida from 11 to 13, Boston from 13 to 24, New York from 24 to 26-ish, 27 maybe. Um, before 27, I'm, I'm on the West Coast.

Stephen Dubner 14:46 Okay. So did you find that in Boston and New York, which are easily the best walking places of all those places you just said, did you walk a lot more there? And did it change anything for you?

Joe Rogan 14:54 No, I was busy. (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 14:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:57 There was no time to be ... Well, I was 20 ... You know, in my early 20s.

Stephen Dubner 15:00 You were working in clubs in New York at that age?

Joe Rogan 15:02 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 15:02 Or right, right.

Joe Rogan 15:02 I was working in clubs in New York, and I was doing a lot of road gigs. And, uh, was playing a lot of pool. And I was, uh, hanging around with a bunch of comedians. And I wasn't going on any hikes.

Stephen Dubner 15:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:11 We were, we were in a ... You know, I would go to the gym occasionally and work out, but we were, we were doing comedy, you know? But as a grownup ... And, uh, I usually run with my dog, he loves to run. And I haven't been able to, uh, run recently because of a little injury. (clears throat) So like for the last two months, I'd just been walking with him and then hiking on the trails, and he runs around and ... When I was doing it, I was realizing, like, I can listen to podcasts or I g- I can listen to music, or I could just do it silent. And when I do it silent, it's, like, really interesting. There's, there's, there's inner dialogue that starts playing out. And it's like you're having a conversation with yourself, that it's a little ther- therapeutic. So I go on these hour walks with my dog. And at the end of it, you know, I feel like I've got some, a b- better handle on stuff.

Stephen Dubner 15:55 I wonder, what you're saying makes me think, and I hope it's not too late for our episode on noise, 'cause this is actually a component that'd be good to get at, is-

Joe Rogan 16:02 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 16:03 ... like, the way you just described si- quiet, or solitude, whatever it is, right?

Joe Rogan 16:09 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 16:09 I think almost everybody who hears that would say, "Oh, yeah, I definitely see the value of that." Because, you know, you need time to process your thoughts-

Joe Rogan 16:18 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 16:18 ... to, to feel things, whatever. But it does make me wonder, the world is obviously more noisy now than it used to be. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:24 Yeah, way more.

Stephen Dubner 16:25 And I do wonder if you just get conditioned out of even thinking about that. Like, my kids, who are teenagers, like, I don't see them ever having silence or solitude.

Joe Rogan 16:36 Right.

Stephen Dubner 16:37 And, again, I don't wanna be judging, I don't wanna be the generation ... 'Cause every generation thinks that what the next generation does is horrible. Like, the people, you know, when The Rolling Stones came, the people who like Perry Como said, "This is the worst music ever." And then the people after that said The Rolling Stones, y- you know, et cetera. But I do wonder how much we're losing by not having availability of that quiet. 'Cause you kinda, it's, uh ... Unless you build your life to have a lot of silence, which I do 'cause I'm a writer and I sit alone all day, um, not many people get to have that. And I wonder what the loss is.

Joe Rogan 17:10 There's gotta be something, because there's a shift in intention. There's, uh, uh, uh, attention rather, and then there's a shift in focus that's dramatic. We've gone from just looking at the world around us to fixated on a device. You know, you look at people's phone time, it's, a lot of times it's six hours in a day. They're just constantly on their phone on, on the toilet, constantly on their phone when they go to get a coffee, on their phone at their desk, texting people while they're walking to the other office. They're texting and walking down the hallway. I mean, most people are on those goddamn things all day long. And there's, for sure, you're putting energy into that little device, which means you're not putting energy into thinking without that device. And though you might think of it as a, "Well, I'm just, I'm still paying attention, I'm just doing this." But you're not. You're not dedicating any resource to being bored, and to thinking about shit, and to just walking and talking to yourself.

Stephen Dubner 18:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:02 Like, thinking to yourself. And there's something about, like, a long hike, you take a dog for a couple mile hike, where you're just walking and you hear crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch. And you're just thinking. And no one's talking to you, and you're not talking to anybody. You're just walking and talking with your dog, and then you're thinking about stuff in a way that is like a tangible sorta meditation on your life. It's like, it's a real moment. And we d- don't value that real moment. We think of it almost as, like, waste. I don't ... Not even listening to anything, no good tunes.

Stephen Dubner 18:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:31 But it's really like, there's value in thinking. And we, we, we haven't put a, a, a value judgment or a number judgment on that.

Stephen Dubner 18:39 It's interesting, some of the people you hear these days talking the most about, uh, really limiting or even forbidding their kids screen time-

Joe Rogan 18:47 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 18:47 ... is Silicon Valley executives.

Joe Rogan 18:49 Oh, yeah.

Stephen Dubner 18:50 That's where, you know-

Joe Rogan 18:51 Yeah. They're smart. (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 18:51 So you have to ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:52 Smart people.

Stephen Dubner 18:52 (laughs) So you have to say, like, you know, at a certain point-

Joe Rogan 18:53 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 18:54 ... you have to say, "Okay, the writing is on the wall here."

Joe Rogan 18:56 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 18:56 But on the other hand, look, every technology that's ever been invented-... people get scared of it, people embrace it, people trash it, event- you know.

Joe Rogan 19:05 For sure, for sure. Um, y- there's, there's always a thing where there's an example in history where people are wrong. But then there's the reality of what it is. What it is, is an ever increasingly immersive experience that everyone is addicted to. And when you're walking through a Starbucks and just see nothing but people on their phones, like people in line are on their phones, people sitting down are on their phones. You go through a mall, everyone's on their phone. You go through a movie theater, people can't put their fucking phone down while a movie's on. People are driving, they're on their phone.

Stephen Dubner 19:37 On the other hand, but you gotta consider the upsides too.

Joe Rogan 19:40 Oh, there's a lot of upsides.

Stephen Dubner 19:41 Y- I mean, even in the, even in the-

Joe Rogan 19:42 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 19:42 ... environment you're describing that sounds like, let's say Starbucks, everybody's on the phone, you gotta think, "Well, wait a minute. Maybe that person over there who looks like they're a slave to it, maybe they are, maybe they're sending a text to their grandma that they wouldn't have done, they wouldn't have been able to do-

Joe Rogan 20:00 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 20:00 ... 10 years ago."

Joe Rogan 20:00 Sure.

Stephen Dubner 20:01 So that's the tricky part. I mean, that's why I, that's why I like-

Joe Rogan 20:03 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 20:03 ... economists because economists are ruthless, bloodless. They almost don't know-

Joe Rogan 20:10 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 20:10 ... what humans are, but they're very good at measuring costs and benefits, and that's what I feel that our kind of political, social media discourse is missing. People are all, for the most part, advocates or activists. They pick up lane and they stay in it, and they wanna pave over the rest of everybody's lanes and make it theirs.

Joe Rogan 20:32 (laughs) Yes.

Stephen Dubner 20:32 And it's not a good way to be.

Joe Rogan 20:34 No, it's not.

Stephen Dubner 20:34 You know?

Joe Rogan 20:35 You know, that's an e- an ep- another episode that I was listening to of yours recently about how hard it is to get people to change their mind on things. And, uh, I forget who the expert was who was talking, but it was a really interesting point that he had about the mind. Like, people say, "Change your mind." You don't really have a mind. You have the mind of the community, and if you step outside the beliefs of the community, it can be very bad for you in terms of, like, your personal connections with people, and I really l- enjoyed that episode.

Stephen Dubner 21:01 It's funny, it's, thanks. It's a, it's a paradox though, 'cause w- the way you just said it, like, if you are in your tribe-

Joe Rogan 21:07 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 21:07 ... then even though it can be healthier for you and for presumably many other people for you to change your mind or at least think differently about things, right, you, you risk losing credibility or whatever.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 21:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:20 Well, I mean, th- s- some religions, I mean, that's how they keep you, right? You get ostracized. There's, there's religions we, that we know of where you, if you decide to leave, you don't just get ostracized, you're, you're literally, you have a death sentence. Like, now you've, you've escaped our group. You are, you're a, you're an outsider now.

Stephen Dubner 21:37 My father, who con- m- both my parents converted from Judaism to Catholicism-

Joe Rogan 21:42 Wow.

Stephen Dubner 21:42 ... before they met each other.

Joe Rogan 21:43 Whoa.

Stephen Dubner 21:44 Yeah, it was, it was very unusual story.

Joe Rogan 21:46 How did that happen?

Stephen Dubner 21:47 Ah, it's a long story. I'll tell you if you really wanna know, but anyway, I'll, I'll, I'll do the short-

Joe Rogan 21:51 That sounds great.

Stephen Dubner 21:51 ... what I'm getting to. Th- and this was during the, uh, during the Second World War. They were both in New York, both first generation, uh-

Joe Rogan 21:58 Oh, okay.

Stephen Dubner 21:58 ... American Jews.

Joe Rogan 22:00 That makes sense.

Stephen Dubner 22:00 They converted for different reasons from each other, and then they met. My father's family was, m- Orthodox, um, and his father, a guy named Shepsil Dubner, uh, who'd come here when he was in his maybe late 20s from Poland, he still lived his everyday in Brooklyn as if he were still in Poland. He didn't change at all. When my father converted and his father found out, my father was, uh, in the war, he was overseas, he was home on leave, and his father was cleaning up, and from my father's pants that he'd left over a chair, uh, rosary beads slipped out and fell on the floor. That's how his Jewish father, Shepsil Dubner, found out that his son had become a Catholic.

Joe Rogan 22:40 Whoa.

Stephen Dubner 22:41 So what he did is he proceeded to, uh, sit shiva for him, the Jewish mourning ritual where for seven days, you mourn the dead. He, he declared that he would never again speak to his son, and he forbade everyone in his family from speaking to his son. So I, by the time I was born, I was the youngest of eight kids in this family because they'd become very Catholic. I didn't know... Th- this whole family of my father's was unknown to me entirely. So they did exactly what you're saying now.

Joe Rogan 23:13 Holy shit.

Stephen Dubner 23:15 Yeah. Yeah, that was what I thought too when I... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:17 Holy shit.

Stephen Dubner 23:19 Mm-hmm. And my mothers did the same thing, but it was less dramatic 'cause her family was less religious, so they still didn't like it all that she had converted, um, but, uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:31 Do you have any children?

Stephen Dubner 23:32 Uh, yeah, I got a couple.

Joe Rogan 23:33 Good.

Stephen Dubner 23:33 I'm Jewish again, though. I- it's a long st- uh, my first, the first book I wrote, long before Freakonomics, was called Turbulent Souls, although it got then republished under a different title called Choosing My Religion, and it tells this, this story of my, uh, my two parents-

Joe Rogan 23:46 Reconversion.

Stephen Dubner 23:47 ... and then me. Yeah, I, uh, so-

Joe Rogan 23:47 I would love to hear that, but, uh, but I just wanna, uh, put in your head that what I was gonna ask you is like, how could you imagine a scenario where you would be capable of doing that-

Stephen Dubner 23:57 (tongue clicks)

Joe Rogan 23:57 ... to your children?

Stephen Dubner 23:58 So, uh, no chance.

Joe Rogan 24:01 No chance?

Stephen Dubner 24:01 No chance, but here's-

Joe Rogan 24:03 That's so scary.

Stephen Dubner 24:03 Yeah, it's scary. It, it is. But on the other hand, I mean, this is, um, what Freakonomics is, what I try to learn through doing Freakonomics, is, you know, uh, to measure the what and try to figure out the why, but then not be the judge who says, "That was terrible. This is wonderful." Because-

Joe Rogan 24:26 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 24:26 ... you know, different people have... Look, i- if Shepsil Dubner were here, we could ask him, "What's your side of the story?" He could tell us a story that might convince us that, you know what, this son of his did a terrible thing to the family. He did a terrible thing, you know. He would say, "How could it be that we Jews existed for generations and generations and generations when everywhere w- we lived, there was always someone trying to, you know, get rid of us? And then we finally come to America, you know, the land of freedom, religious freedom, economic freedom, and here, after generations and generations of forefathers fought to stay Jewish, here my son decides to become Catholic? What are you thinking?" So, you know, everybody's, everybody's got a perspective, everybody's got an emotional experience, y- so I try to respect that. But no, I would not do that to my children.

Joe Rogan 25:13 I understand the outrage. I understand being upset.But I, I can't understand choosing that over your son and over the relationship you have with your son.

Stephen Dubner 25:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:23 It's ridiculous.

Stephen Dubner 25:24 The, the saddest end of the story then when that grandfi- my grandfather, who I never met, this was a long time ago, uh, my father's father ... And my father died when I was very young so I didn't know the story either. That is why I wrote this first book was to d- fi- try to figure out this whole ... All the stuff I'm telling you now, none of this I knew until I was in my, like, 20s when I was writing this book.

Joe Rogan 25:42 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 25:42 But when Scheftzel Dubner was dying of cancer in the, uh, maybe late 50s or so, um, a c- a c- uh, a nephew of his, uh, who my father used to be very close with and who looked a lot like my dad, and this guy was maybe in his, mm, early 20s, late teens by now, he walked into the hospital room. And Scheftzel, you know, on his deathbed really, thought that that was my father, his son. S- My, my, my dad's name was Solomon. He called him Shloyme. And he was, he was calling out to him, "Shloyme, Shloyme," as if he was, you know, um-

Joe Rogan 26:17 On his deathbed.

Stephen Dubner 26:17 ... happy, happy to see him.

Joe Rogan 26:19 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 26:20 It wasn't him, though.

Joe Rogan 26:21 Oh.

Stephen Dubner 26:22 And my father didn't go visit his own father dying in the hospital because he'd been forbidden to go anywhere near, uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:30 Oh, Jesus.

Stephen Dubner 26:30 So it was terrible. So-

Joe Rogan 26:31 That's so sad.

Stephen Dubner 26:32 ... look, this is why religion ... I've been long fascinated by religion. And I think that, again, if you think about it the way that economists think about things, there are costs and there are benefits. And it's complicated.

Joe Rogan 26:46 I think you're 100% right. I think you're 100% right. And I, I think that's, uh, hard for people to handle when, you know, people are hardcore atheists, where they don't see any value in it whatsoever even though people are at- they're, th- they're getting some sort of ethical value, moral value. And the way I always put it is like, it's like a scaffolding to live your life by. You can w- live within these confines. And it really kinda makes sense if you follow it loosely that we're doing, to try to, for the benefit of community. And it's also like a, a real community, um, sense that comes from meeting on Sunday with all those other, or whatever day it is with your, your religion. And you meet in a group of other people that are also in the community. And you all basically are saying together that we should do good things and be good to people and treat each other the way God would want us to. Like, all that has undeniable benefits. And anybody-

Stephen Dubner 27:40 Also-

Joe Rogan 27:40 ... who says differently is like, "You're deluding yourself." Like, your points, uh, atheists who are hardcore, who make points about the preposterous nature of a lot of religious texts, they're on the money. But it doesn't mean-

Stephen Dubner 27:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:51 ... it doesn't mean that it doesn't give people a benefit and that I, I couldn't even disagree with them continuing it 'cause there's a lot of people that benefit greatly from religion.

Stephen Dubner 28:00 Someone wrote to us after that, uh, loneliness episode came out, um, and said, "How did you fail to write about, uh, this supposed epidemic of loneliness without addressing the huge decline in organized religion in America?" Which I thought was a very good piece of criticism.

Joe Rogan 28:18 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 28:18 That would've been a good ... Because you're right, it's a community-

Joe Rogan 28:21 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 28:22 One other thing I would add to the list that you provided of what it can give is humility, right? Because, you know-

Joe Rogan 28:28 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 28:28 ... if you have an image of some superior being, God-

Joe Rogan 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 28:32 ... deity, whatever you wanna call it, you kind of understand that one mortal is, you know, the world does not revolve (laughs) around me. The other thing I would say, and look, I'd, it, it's hard for me to scientifically, logically embrace a lot of the arguments that a lot of religions make, especially about things like the afterlife, right?

Joe Rogan 28:50 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 28:50 That said, even to an atheist, I would suggest one way to think about it is if someone does believe in those rewards, or if, um, in economic terms we're talking about them as incentives, even if it's a placebo effect ... In other words, if I, if I'm encouraged to do, to treat other people well on this, on the chance that if I do so, I have a reward-

Joe Rogan 29:12 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 29:12 ... an internal reward, hey, it's not a bad reason to incentivize people to do well.

Joe Rogan 29:18 It sounds like a nice justification for one of them psychic houses.

Stephen Dubner 29:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:21 You drive by, they got the neon sign. "They're helping people."

Stephen Dubner 29:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:25 They're giving people a sense what the future's gonna be like.

Stephen Dubner 29:27 How do you, how do you know they're not? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:27 Giving them hope. It might be. Imagine if that's where the real psychics are, those neon signs.

Stephen Dubner 29:32 Maybe that's where God lives.

Joe Rogan 29:33 It could be. I went to one of them in Brooklyn, by the way. Uh, the only one I ever went to. I was in Brooklyn for an audition in the early '90s. And I'm like, "Why not? Fuck it." It was, like, 10 bucks or something. I walked in to see this lady and she was wrong about everything.

Stephen Dubner 29:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:45 She thought I had a brother. She thought I was trying to get into the family business. Like, "You're really tight with your dad."

Stephen Dubner 29:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:51 No, I don't even know him. Like, (laughs) it was, it was, it was a disaster, but-

Stephen Dubner 29:55 All right. So maybe you didn't, you need, we need, like, a Yelp for psychics.

Joe Rogan 29:59 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 29:59 And that one wouldn't have been the good one.

Joe Rogan 30:01 Yeah, I think if we're gonna do something like that, we bring in James Randi.

Stephen Dubner 30:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:04 We have him-

Stephen Dubner 30:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:05 ... sit and go by the rules, and, and someone like Penn Jillette, who will be able to-

Stephen Dubner 30:09 Ah.

Joe Rogan 30:09 'Cause he understands all those carny tricks where they do where they can pretend that they're psychic-

Stephen Dubner 30:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:13 ... just by leading you into questions.

Stephen Dubner 30:14 But you know what's funny? I think he's a pretty strongly professed atheist, right?

Joe Rogan 30:18 Yes, he is. Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 30:18 Right? But somehow I find his talking about the subject incredibly, like, uh, embracing.

Joe Rogan 30:23 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 30:23 Like, he does it right because it's a smart way of doing it. He understands-

Joe Rogan 30:26 He's a generous person.

Stephen Dubner 30:27 He is, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:27 He's a really, really nice person. And that's, even if he disagrees with you on something, he's, he'll laugh and joke around, but he's, um, he's a nice person. Like, he'll, he'll let you have these conversations and, and not ... Like, some people try to shove their atheism down your throat and, like, mock you. And, uh, I just don't ... All you're doing is reinforcing the ideas of these people 'cause you're acting like an asshole.

Stephen Dubner 30:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:50 So they're like, "Well, th- that, I'm now connecting atheism with asshole."

Stephen Dubner 30:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:54 "So fuck atheists, fucking assholes," you know? And then that's what people do. It's like a natural-

Stephen Dubner 30:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:00 It's a n- nat- but if someone's nice, you know. Um, did you ever, uh, do you know the story of Darrell Davis?

Stephen Dubner 31:06 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 31:07 Darrell Davis is gentleman who's been on this podcast before. And he is a musician by trade, but he has converted over 200 different guys to leave, um, the KKK and Nazi organizations.

Stephen Dubner 31:19 Wow.

Joe Rogan 31:19 And he's converted it by becoming their friend.'Cause he was doing a show and this guy came... I'm, I'm butchering it, and I'm sorry, Darryl, but, uh, this is what he said on the, the podcast. I'm sure he'd do a better job of telling the story. But he was at a show, and he was playing in this band, and this guy said, "You were really good." You know? And he sat down with the guy, and the guy said, "I never had a drink with a Black guy before." And he's like, "How is that possible?" And he, and he shows him his card, he's in the KKK. Wow. And so he's like, he goes, "Well, how... You're having a rational conversation with me, a normal conversation with me, like, do you, you really think that Black men are evil or Black men are dumb?" And they have this conversation, this civil conversation. And then he gives the guy his, uh, I think he gave him his phone number. He said, uh, "I'll, I'll call you when I'm back in town if you wanna have this conversation again." And so then they become friends. And so they go back and forth for like months, hanging out. And then, uh, th- three f- three months or so into the friendship, the guy brings his KKK outfit and he goes, "I wanna give this to you 'cause I'm never wearing it again." He goes, "I'm done." And from being this guy's friend- Unreal. ...and so then he meets a bunch of other ones, and he starts talking to them. And just nice as pie, just nice, friendly, intelligent, super articulate too, so it's hard to, hard to describe him as dumb when he's way smarter than you.

Stephen Dubner 32:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:33 Right? You're talking to him and he's, he's so eloquent. So he converts more and more and more. He converted a guy who was a Nazi, who's a... He's, he's converted a bunch of people. Like it's more than 200 now. And he continues to do it. And there's been... There's some p- pieces about it online, but hearing him say it and hearing him talk about it is the m- the most amazing. He just... He grew up in a way that he r- didn't really experience racism until he came to, uh, America. I think he said he was like six years old. It was... He's from Italy, right? That's where he was from before that, up until then I think. Somewhere where he just didn't experience it. And then when he was a, a little boy, people were throwing things at him in a parade and he d- had no idea. He couldn't understand it. He'd never... He didn't know. And s- they had to pull him aside and say, "It's because you're Black." He's like, "What?" Like he couldn't believe it. So because the fact that he didn't have it in his early childhood, and then he had it when he was y- a, a young boy and realized how crazy it was that he didn't experience this before this one moment and became obsessed with it. It was Italy?

Stephen Dubner 33:30 I- he... Uh, this... His Wikipedia says he grew up all over the world, um, but when he came back when t- when he was 10, he was in an all-white Cub Scout pack in Massachusetts when that incident happened.

Joe Rogan 33:38 Yeah, so that's what it was.

Stephen Dubner 33:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:40 So he was 10 years old and walking-

Stephen Dubner 33:41 Man, if you wanna pick somewhere to experience kinda straight up racism, Massachusetts is a good place to start I would say.

Joe Rogan 33:47 There's definitely some spots.

Stephen Dubner 33:48 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:48 I have some thoughts on that. I feel like there's that heirloom f- civilization that still, uh, like-

Stephen Dubner 33:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:55 ... it landed there from boats-

Stephen Dubner 33:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:58 ... just a couple of decades ago. I mean, my grandparents came over, um-

Stephen Dubner 34:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:02 ... in the... I think they were here in the, the '20s-

Stephen Dubner 34:05 From where?

Joe Rogan 34:05 ... or the '30s, from Italy-

Stephen Dubner 34:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:07 ... and Ireland.

Stephen Dubner 34:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:07 Everybody came from somewhere, right? There's mostly, most of them, three of 'em came from Italy, one of 'em came from Ireland, so I'm three quarters Italian. But it's... The, the families of those people were risk-taking savages. They didn't even have a video to watch, right? They just jumped in a fucking boat-

Stephen Dubner 34:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:24 ... and hoped America was better. And then when they got there, they got checked in at Ellis Island. They, and then they started working in factories, and scratching and clawing. And there's just a lot of struggle that's still in that part of the world that you... When you come to California, one of the first things you feel is like a lighter, a lighter sense of discourse than the East Coast. It's... The East Coast, I always felt like people had their guard up a little bit more, a little bit more tense, a little bit more like, "What the fuck did you say?" There was a little bit more of that, a little bit more sketchy people. Just the, the echoes of the savage past is still in the soil, you know?

Stephen Dubner 35:01 I, I hear you, but there's also... So the thing that I like about New York, I don't mean to, n- m- trash California. I like California a lot.

Joe Rogan 35:11 Oh, I love New York, but don't get me wrong.

Stephen Dubner 35:12 But man, when I'm in California, first of all, it feels much more like a foreign country to me than a- any other place in America. Maybe l- uh, well, that's not quite-

Joe Rogan 35:22 What, what makes it seem like a foreign country?

Stephen Dubner 35:23 Um, it feels, uh, because I feel people have, uh, a manner and a style that is totally divorced from this intensity (laughs) that I'm used to, right?

Joe Rogan 35:39 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 35:39 F- in New York. Now, I grew up on a farm in Upstate New York, so I grew up not in the hurly-burly. New York City was scar-

Joe Rogan 35:46 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 35:46 'Cause my parents, once they converted and they became Catholic, they needed to have some place where you could have tons of kids, so we grew up in the middle of nowhere.

Joe Rogan 35:53 Oh, jeez.

Stephen Dubner 35:53 So I grew up... Uh, I was a farm kid and, um, so the intensity of a city scared me until ultimately I moved to New York, um, for a variety of reasons, and then I, then I caught the bug, and now I love cities. So I love California, but when I come here, I feel like it's, uh, running on a different voltage, you know?

Joe Rogan 36:14 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 36:14 And I am envious of people's ability to run like that. Like they seem, right? Like their shoulders... Like you look at me, I'm sitting here, my shoulders are always up to my ears. Like, kinda just a built-in tension.

Joe Rogan 36:28 Mmm.

Stephen Dubner 36:28 And I feel like I thrive on it, and maybe I do. I mean, things have worked out okay. But, uh, like I said, when I look at, look at the way people are sort of congenitally relaxed, I envy it. On the other hand, I think that that intensity produces some things that I, I like a lot. Like I like... I also like the environment of a, uh, you know, of university campus. The... To me, the tricky part is, uh, there's that fine line between intensity and competition that treats it like a zero-sum game. So I don't like to be around environments where people are trying to...... win so that they can beat somebody else, except in sports. That's why sports are awesome. Sports are a good proxy for life. People can be very competitive. You win or lose.

Joe Rogan 37:15 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 37:15 You go home, you come back and do it again.

Joe Rogan 37:17 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 37:18 Because you've lost, it doesn't make you a bad person.

Joe Rogan 37:20 Right.

Stephen Dubner 37:21 Um-

Joe Rogan 37:21 No, sports are very valuable, I think, for people in that regard.

Stephen Dubner 37:23 Also for war.

Joe Rogan 37:24 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 37:24 You know, I mean, it's-

Joe Rogan 37:25 Yeah. Well, that was football.

Stephen Dubner 37:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:26 That's the reason why I invented it, right? You know about population densities, right, that, y- you know, you can accurately d- depict or detect how many people live in a given area by putting a camera on one red light and then a camera on another little red light, and then as the people walk by, measure how fast they walk?

Stephen Dubner 37:42 No kidding.

Joe Rogan 37:42 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 37:43 I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 37:44 And when they do that-

Stephen Dubner 37:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:45 ... um, if they, they do that-

Stephen Dubner 37:47 I assume faster is denser.

Joe Rogan 37:48 Yes. Faster's denser.

Stephen Dubner 37:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:50 Also, how many syllables that they say, uh, per sentence, how quickly they say those syllables, um, that there's actually a cadence, a speed that an uptick in the entire population-

Stephen Dubner 38:00 What are you talking about? What are you talking about, Joe? I don't know.

Joe Rogan 38:02 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 38:02 I don't believe a word you're saying.

Joe Rogan 38:02 The fuck are you saying, bro?

Stephen Dubner 38:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:04 They, there's a, people get to the chase, cut to the chase, and I think that that urge to walk faster, that urge to talk faster, is an energy. And that energy, you know, we're looking at it in terms of its results, right? The results are you can actually detect. If you know the formula, you look at a camera here and a camera there, you know, a timer, so it's someone walked from here to there, you add it all up, and you can guess, like really accurately, within a million people-

Stephen Dubner 38:26 Pretty neat.

Joe Rogan 38:26 ... how many someone lives at 50.

Stephen Dubner 38:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:28 Yeah. I think it's because there's energy that comes out of cities. My friend Jeff lives in New York, my s- my manager. He's lived there forever, and, uh, he loves it. He goes, "I'd never leave New York. I love New York. Ah, the fucking energy of this city," 'cause it gives him juice.

Stephen Dubner 38:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:42 I think New York people-

Stephen Dubner 38:42 Not for everybody, we should say.

Joe Rogan 38:44 Right, not for everybody.

Stephen Dubner 38:45 Not for everybody.

Joe Rogan 38:45 Some people, I think, just get weirded out by it and they need to be alone, and some people like a yard, and some people like peace and quiet, but some people live for that (singing) fuck you. They live for it.

Stephen Dubner 38:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:54 They live for being stacked on top of a buil- building with strangers below 'em and everyone's all together in this hive, feeding off each other.

Stephen Dubner 39:01 You know what's interesting is, you know... How old are you?

Joe Rogan 39:03 52.

Stephen Dubner 39:04 Okay. So y- I'm 56.

Joe Rogan 39:07 You look great.

Stephen Dubner 39:08 So... Thank... D- ditto. Uh, so we're the same, roughly-

Joe Rogan 39:12 Generation.

Stephen Dubner 39:12 ... generation.

Joe Rogan 39:12 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 39:12 And we remember the back when, you know, computerization was starting and the internet was starting, that all the predictions were that, you know, now anybody can do anything from everywhere, so nobody's gonna have any reason to have to live anywhere, and cities are just gonna empty out.

Joe Rogan 39:27 Yeah, I remember that. (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 39:28 Exactly wrong. An- around the world, the more digital we've gotten, the more... In fact, the urban population now, the share of the human population that's urban is higher now than it's ever been in the history of the world.

Joe Rogan 39:39 Wow.

Stephen Dubner 39:39 It's unbelievable. So what that says to me is, and this is not about New York versus California anymore, what that says to me is even when you can engage with people remotely or have a lot of space, whatever, there's something about humans wanting to rub up against each other physically, intellectually, et cetera, that is incredibly strong and, uh-

Joe Rogan 39:58 Undeniable. That's why going to live see live music and things like that, it's, it's a shared experience. You're all seeing something live. There's a benefit to that. And I always tell people, like, if you watch a comedy special on television, you, that comedy special is, at the very best, 70% as good as seeing it live. It's never 100%.

Stephen Dubner 40:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:16 Because you're not there. So it might be great because it's a funny person, but you're missing, for sure, at least 30%. And then, you know, when you're live, there's like this intangible quality. You feel it in the air. When you're all laughing, there's a, a buzz that everybody gets. You're laughing together.

Stephen Dubner 40:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:34 Yeah, like right now. We're doing-

Stephen Dubner 40:35 It reminds me of, um, I once watched somebody else's wedding video.

Joe Rogan 40:40 Oh, Jesus.

Stephen Dubner 40:40 I can't remember the circumstances. Somebody-

Joe Rogan 40:41 Did you get forced at gunpoint? 'Cause I've been.

Stephen Dubner 40:43 Pretty... It was pretty close to that.

Joe Rogan 40:44 Oh.

Stephen Dubner 40:44 And, and they said... It was some- uh, it was somebody showing me like their sibling's wedding video 'cause they thought it was s- they said it was such an amazing experience, it was so warm.

Joe Rogan 40:54 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 40:54 And I was watching it and I felt like I was watching a detergent commercial, like no emotional connection.

Joe Rogan 40:59 Right.

Stephen Dubner 40:59 Because I wasn't there.

Joe Rogan 41:01 You weren't there. Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 41:01 I wasn't there.

Joe Rogan 41:01 That's the worst thing that people make you do. When they make you sit and watch their... The only thing worse is someone who's in a really bad band and they want you to listen to their album-

Stephen Dubner 41:09 Believe me.

Joe Rogan 41:09 ... in front of you.

Stephen Dubner 41:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:10 And you have to sit there and go, "Dude, you're making me do this?"

Stephen Dubner 41:13 When I played music, uh-

Joe Rogan 41:15 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 41:16 ... my, uh, so I had, I, I never... So first of all, when I started in this band I was in, we were in North Carolina, and my family was mostly up in New York State and so on, so they weren't close. But then when we started to travel and tour and, and whatnot, we would get within their range and they'd come to see us. L- these were like my older siblings, who I love, they're great people, but I would say to them, "I, I don't think this really is gonna be for you. It's gonna be pretty loud, raucous rock and roll, a little bit punky, a little bit whatever." And they're like, "No, no, no, I wanna come see little brother, da, da, da."

Joe Rogan 41:46 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 41:46 So then they'd see a show, I remember this one show we played at the old Ritz in New York, and I remember my brother, who's a musician, by the way, and a very good musician, but much more refined than I was, he came up and he said, "You guys really looked like you were having fun up there." (laughs) Like, "We weren't. I wasn't. You had so much, uh, energy up there." So yeah, y- the difference between the experience from the inside and perceived experience was a massive gap.

Joe Rogan 42:15 Yeah. For sure. Yeah, y- going to see something live like that where it's bad is actually extra super painful.

Stephen Dubner 42:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:23 Like when you watch a comedian bomb on stage and you're in the audience, you're feeling agony.

Stephen Dubner 42:27 Oh, boy.

Joe Rogan 42:27 Like you're mad at this person for putting you through this, like, "Oh my God, get off the stage."

Stephen Dubner 42:30 No, you can't be mad at them though, don't you f-

Joe Rogan 42:32 No.

Stephen Dubner 42:32 Isn't it more empathy than anger?

Joe Rogan 42:33 Oh, for sure.

Stephen Dubner 42:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:34 But sure, but y- there's a lot of anger too.

Stephen Dubner 42:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:37 Like 'cause you are, you are being tortured. Like imagine if... And it's not really physical pain, but there is a certain level of emotional pain that you experience when someone's bombing. When someone's in front of you and you're like, "Oh, God." Especially me, 'cause I've done standup for so many years, like I know what it's like to bomb. I've bombed. So I see someone bombing, I'm like, "Yikes, I gotta get outta here. I can't take it." It's almost like my guts are on fire.

Stephen Dubner 42:58 The thing I always wondered about comics is why they don't cheat more because laughter is plainly very contagious.

Joe Rogan 43:06 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 43:06 ... right?

Joe Rogan 43:07 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 43:08 So every time I've seen someone bomb, I always felt like if one or two people had g- started going with it, laughing, responding-

Joe Rogan 43:16 You mean cheat more by f- packing the audience and people laughing?

Stephen Dubner 43:19 Something, something. Or just-

Joe Rogan 43:20 That's hilarious.

Stephen Dubner 43:20 ... putting your iPhone in the audience and having it start laughing. I don't know how to ch- There's a lot of ways to cheat.

Joe Rogan 43:25 That's hilarious.

Stephen Dubner 43:25 Because I've always thought that it's such a, uh, it's such an obvious dynamic that laughter really is very, very contagious. But even like y- you see, like, kids in school, when they're supposed to not be laughing and one kid laughs, they, they all can't stop. It's this incredibly contagious behavior. So-

Joe Rogan 43:41 I think if you did pipe in laughter, first of all-

Stephen Dubner 43:44 No, I'm not saying... Well, maybe I am saying that. Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:47 (laughs) You might, you could kinda say with a phone in the audience. Okay, that's most drastic. Let's say you plant people in the audience.

Stephen Dubner 43:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:55 You could probably swing things in a way from a really bad set to maybe an okay set, but you're never gonna make it funny. See, all... The best way to do that is to just make it funny.

Stephen Dubner 44:07 Actually, to be-

Joe Rogan 44:08 Because... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because-

Stephen Dubner 44:09 To bother to be good.

Joe Rogan 44:10 That's not... That cheating thing is not helping you ever. It's like g- It's gonna get in the way, right?

Stephen Dubner 44:14 You make a good point.

Joe Rogan 44:14 You're not gonna learn anything from it. It's like people that steal other people's jokes. They never learn how to write. You know, they, they, they... You have to figure out the language of it. And when you're up there, if you're just doing fake laughs in the background to juice it up, you're not gonna know how to get real ones.

Stephen Dubner 44:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:30 You're gonna feel weird about it or you're gonna be... Also, you're gonna know that you're doing it and the audience is gonna know that something's wrong. You're gonna... There's a feeling-

Stephen Dubner 44:36 All right, so maybe I'm not talking about cheating per se.

Joe Rogan 44:39 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 44:39 As, as-

Joe Rogan 44:39 You're making sense.

Stephen Dubner 44:40 As having, uh, as having some... And I'm sure every comic does this already, so it's not like I'm telling anybody anything, but having some, something in your pocket that's gonna get them on your side, even if for a little while, just to get the momentum going in your way.

Joe Rogan 45:00 We certainly do have some bits that you know work.

Stephen Dubner 45:02 Because, like, when you say, like if you bomb or somebody else bombs, you could give exactly the same set an hour later to a slightly different crowd and it would go great, right?

Joe Rogan 45:11 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 45:12 Or no?

Joe Rogan 45:13 Sometimes. Sometimes you're bombing because you get off on a bad start, like you'll, you'll come up with... Like, the real sketchy time is when you're writing new material. That's when it's, that's touch and go. The way I always like to describe it, it's like you have no weapons, like you're going into a fight, but everything's made out of rubber. Like, "Fuck."

Stephen Dubner 45:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:29 Like, nothing's good yet, right?

Stephen Dubner 45:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:31 Like when you, when you have new material, you have a stack of notes and they've got-

Stephen Dubner 45:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:34 ... like four or five premises and one or two of them might be any good. But I got to go through those other premises that suck multiple times-

Stephen Dubner 45:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:41 ... to find out for sure that they're no good.

Stephen Dubner 45:42 All right, let me ask you a question. When that's happening to you, um, do you learn over time to not let it hurt your ego to the point where you're gonna get even worse? In other words, if you're not doing well-

Joe Rogan 45:56 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 45:56 ... what you need to do is you s- you need to say, "I've got this material, I need to work on it 'cause it's gonna get better." But I could imagine that if you start bombing, what happens is you just feel so hurt that you get worse and worse as you go. How do you fight against that?

Joe Rogan 46:11 Yeah, it's a psychological mind game. For sure, you, you definitely could... Look, and, and I've seen it happen to comedians while they're riding a whole new hour. It's almost like they, they lose their glow as a human, because they're just eating shit all the time.

Stephen Dubner 46:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:25 And we get away from them like they're diseased.

Stephen Dubner 46:28 Really?

Joe Rogan 46:28 Like, if someone bombs and they come off stage, like, "Oh." You get away from them, because we know what it's like. It's like, "Oh, I don't even wanna hug them."

Stephen Dubner 46:34 Does it feel contagious?

Joe Rogan 46:35 A little bit. Yeah, it's... You gotta get out of the room. Like, one of the worst things that people do and I don't know why they do it, but a lot of comedians like to bring terrible comedians with them on the road so that they look like a hero.

Stephen Dubner 46:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:46 It's a really sneaky move. And they, they literally hire people that don't work any other way. They don't-

Stephen Dubner 46:52 Is that a bad idea ultimately, though?

Joe Rogan 46:54 It's a terrible idea.

Stephen Dubner 46:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:55 Because you want everybody to have fun and if you make them sit through 20 minutes of someone who's terrible, you're torturing them.

Stephen Dubner 47:00 Are you... Do you end up lowering your own standard because you're around shitty people?

Joe Rogan 47:04 You ruin the vibe of the show. You... It just fucks it up. If you... Especially if you're doing it on purpose. You know, there's a thing that's going on on stage that's not quantified and is that there's a mass hypnosis that's happening. When someone is killing, for me as an audience member, my recognition of this is, as a person who performs it and also as an audience member, when I'm an audience member and someone's killing, I'm letting them think for me, right? I'm not even thinking. I'm just, like-

Stephen Dubner 47:31 Huh. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:32 ... letting them take me down a trail. Like, say, like, Dave Attell. Dave Attell was at the improv the other night, we worked together, and he was fucking amazing. And, like, one of the best sets I've seen from him in... He's always been amazing, but God, he was on fire and we were all... It was me, my friend Owen Smith and Tony Hinchcliffe, we were sitting in the back room and we were watching Dave and we were in a trance. We were just laughing. We were letting him think for us.

Stephen Dubner 47:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:58 You know what I'm saying? Like, he's doing all the thinking. We're just on a little ride, and Dave's taking us on this ride. And as an audience member, I recognize that. There's a mass hypnosis, there's a thing that happens where we all get into this mindset. And if someone has, like, really well-crafted material, like Dave Attell, and they take you on it, you let them. You're like, "Whee."

Stephen Dubner 48:17 Do you think-

Joe Rogan 48:17 Mitch Hedberg is gonna take us on a ride. You know what I mean? That's what it's like.

Stephen Dubner 48:19 You think the same thing happens, uh, when a politician is speaking?

Joe Rogan 48:24 Oh, that's a good question. For sure, Trump has a lot of elements of standup comedy in his routines for sure, 100%. If you watch his most recent speech where he's making fun of Joe Biden-

Stephen Dubner 48:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:34 ... saying 150 million people were killed with guns, and he's like, "And I looked at the First Lady." I mean, he's literally doing standup, who does a very good job, by the way. "I looked at the First Lady, I'm like, where are all these bodies? Where are all these 150 million people? That's half the population." Like, they just let him say... Nobody talks to him. He's like, uh, "Hello, Idaho." And he's like, "You're in Iowa." Oh, see, like, he's doing standup. And so someone took it and they made a video saying, "Donald Trump at the Apollo."

Stephen Dubner 49:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:00 And so they put him doing this speech with audience reaction from people watching standup comedy and laughing.

Stephen Dubner 49:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:07 And a laugh track over it. And it seems real. It seems like he's a comic, so he's, he's doing-

Stephen Dubner 49:11 What about Bernie?

Joe Rogan 49:13 Bernie, um, for sure is a powerful speaker, but I don't think he's that funny. I mean, he'll say a funny thing every now and then-

Stephen Dubner 49:18 Right. But are they the same-

Joe Rogan 49:19 ... but he's, he's more serious.

Stephen Dubner 49:19 ... when you talk about, like, going along for the ride, like, they're doing the thinking for you is such an interesting idea. I-

Joe Rogan 49:25 Bernie is a trustworthy person. People trust him. They see him up there, he's not polished, right? The thing about Bernie, it's like, when he's saying things, there's, there's ums and there's uhs and there's... you know? And his, his hair's all fucked up.

Stephen Dubner 49:38 Yeah, but Trump's not polished either.

Joe Rogan 49:40 It's a different kind of polish.

Stephen Dubner 49:41 What do you mean?

Joe Rogan 49:41 Trump is a polished performer.

Stephen Dubner 49:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:43 Like, he, he's like a comic doing scat. You know, it's da-da-da-da. You know? It's like, yeah, I'm telling you, that's exactly what it is. It's an amazing, it's an amazing thing. He's, like, filling in the blanks, loading up his weapon for the next line that he's gonna throw and call crazy Hillary, lock her up, lock... It's standup. It's basically like he's doing standup. That's why Biden is so fucked. He's so fucked, 'cause he can't talk, right? He has a really hard time talking. He keeps screwing things up.

Stephen Dubner 50:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:09 And he... and it's a real bad horse to bet on, 'cause he's an older guy.

Stephen Dubner 50:12 You're still a Bernie guy at this moment?

Joe Rogan 50:14 I love Bernie.

Stephen Dubner 50:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:15 I love the guy.

Stephen Dubner 50:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:16 I love what he represents.

Stephen Dubner 50:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:18 Like, I don't know if he's gonna be able to get anything implemented, but I love... what he represents is a man who wants to do good for people that don't have much. That's, that's a sentiment. There's a, there's a quality to that that I think helps us as a community, as a community of the United States. If we have this agreement, "Hey, let's see what we can do. Let's see what we can do to balance things out and to... for the downtrodden, for the people that are hurting, concentrate on them." And he's made that a huge priority of his life, and always has. And to deny that, it's like, look what he's trying to do. I don't know if he can get any of this shit passed. I don't think anybody knows until he gets in there. But the idea is we're saying we want better for people who don't have much.

Stephen Dubner 51:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:05 That's what he stands for. And you can call it democratic socialism, but, but it's an idea. The idea is like, helping people. Just helping people. Helping people you don't even know.

Stephen Dubner 51:15 What's-

Joe Rogan 51:15 Making the world a little bit better place for the working person.

Stephen Dubner 51:17 What's then the corollary? What's the Trump idea and why did it succeed?

Joe Rogan 51:22 Bunch of pussies out there trying to ban free speech. A bunch of pussies out there. Come on. Fu... America's number one. Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. There's also, he doesn't talk like a politician. You know, he talks about China, "You go to them listening motherfuckers, we're gonna charge you 25%." And everybody's like, "Yeah." More standup. It's more standup, right? It's way more entertaining. He's the most entertaining. Forget about value judgment of-

Stephen Dubner 51:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:45 ... who he is as a person.

Stephen Dubner 51:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:46 Without a doubt, the most entertaining president that's ever lived. And not even close. There's not even a close second. He buries all of them, and he drags them into his fight. Even Hillary is now talking differently about other people. She said about Bernie, "Nobody liked him." She would have never said that. Before Donald Trump, she would have never uttered those words. His victory over her is deep in her DNA now.

Stephen Dubner 52:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:10 And she's starting to exhibit some of his patterns.

Stephen Dubner 52:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:13 By saying, "Nobody ever liked him," how could you say that? What kind of crazy... Of course, millions of people like him. They're voting for him. Millions, millions of people. To say nobody like him or nobody liked him, in a se... Come... course, course people like him. And then they started writing, I like Bernie. This hashtag I like Bernie start popping up. Like, that behavior is a direct reaction to her getting pounded on by Donald Trump through the entire campaign and then losing.

Stephen Dubner 52:40 All right, so let me ask you this. You've talked to a lot of people from all different realms in here, right?

Joe Rogan 52:44 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 52:44 If we can agree, let's say, that being entertaining is not a great prerequisite for-

Joe Rogan 52:50 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 52:50 ... qualification for being president, if we can agree on that-

Joe Rogan 52:53 We can definitely agree on that.

Stephen Dubner 52:53 ... which seems pretty easy, right?

Joe Rogan 52:54 Yes, very easy to agree on.

Stephen Dubner 52:56 Um, what can be done, whether it's in the political sphere, the media sphere, uh, putting, uh, something in the drinking water, to let people, to encourage people to have a little bit more of what you're after? Whether it's compassion, whether it's understanding, whether it's balance, whether it's moderation? In other words, why is the entertainment force winning right now? And if you don't like that notion, what can be done about it?

Joe Rogan 53:22 Well, the entertainment force is r- for whatever reason, is being portrayed through Trump only. See, he's not a politician. He's a guy who's a media star, and he's been a media star for decades. He knows how to manipulate the media. He knows how to sit on the Letterman couch and kill. He's been doing it for a long time. He's very comfortable being in front of cameras. None of those people have those kind of skills, and nobody thought of it as a skill. They thought of a politician being able to do their politician stuff. When this guy's calling you crazy Ted or lyin' Ted or, you know, lyin' Hillary, he ju... makes up names for you. Sleepy Joe. I mean-

Stephen Dubner 54:01 And I'm smiling because it's funny-

Joe Rogan 54:03 He's fu-

Stephen Dubner 54:03 ... 'cause he's good at it.

Joe Rogan 54:04 He's funny. He's good at it. Here's the problem. You shouldn't have a goddamn popularity contest to see who controls thermonuclear weapons. That's fucking stupid. It's stupid, to, to allow people to vote-

Stephen Dubner 54:13 But it's stu... but it's the sys-

Joe Rogan 54:14 ... based on a popularity-

Stephen Dubner 54:14 ... but it's the system we've got.

Joe Rogan 54:16 Yes, it is the system we've got.

Stephen Dubner 54:16 So that's what I'm asking you, is what now?

Joe Rogan 54:18 Well, the system's only a couple of hundred years old.

Stephen Dubner 54:20 I know.

Joe Rogan 54:20 You know what I mean?

Stephen Dubner 54:20 Or even the sys... this kinda-

Joe Rogan 54:22 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 54:22 I mean, the way that these elections are, 'cause I don't think it was... I mean, if you look at Lincoln-Douglas debates, those were actual debates with two people.

Joe Rogan 54:28 And they took hours and hours and hours.

Stephen Dubner 54:29 Yeah. Yeah, and so it was... it has evolved a lot.

Joe Rogan 54:31 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 54:31 But I mean, let's say that you're not happy with the way it is, and there's a lot of people, even there are people who like Trump quite a bit on some dimensions who are very troubled by other dimensions. So there's a lot of people out there who are open to, like...... no, let's, let's try to adjust the thinking. Let's try to-

Joe Rogan 54:46 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 54:46 ... change our minds. Let's n- try to not be influenced as much by what we're being influenced by. Do you have any, uh, do you have any pointers?

Joe Rogan 54:54 The, the real problem that we're having is this tribal battle of left versus right. And the, the strongest voices on the left, the loudest voices, and the most extreme oftentimes are the worst representations, and the same with the right. The loudest, most extreme team members, they're the people at the front of the line, "Fuck yeah, we're gonna kick their ass." And like, "Is that guy with me?"

Stephen Dubner 55:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:16 "Am I on his team? Fuck. Are we in a war now? We're in a war with the left."

Stephen Dubner 55:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:20 Like, that's what it is, you know? And, um, and there's also these ideas that we have that are cemented in stone, that, you know, if you're a, a left wing person, you believe in X, Y, and Z, this is your doctrine.

Stephen Dubner 55:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:31 If you're a right wing person-

Stephen Dubner 55:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:32 Where most of us have, like, a little bit of this-

Stephen Dubner 55:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:34 ... and maybe you believe in the Second Amendment, maybe you believe in the First Amendment, maybe you think that maybe, you know, uh, maybe we should, uh, incorporate a lot of the things we do with the fire department and, uh, you know, and, but, but do that to schools, and do that to housing, and do that to m- make sure that all the, the stuff's covered. Make housing, like, a, a, an important part of w- the, a civilization.

Stephen Dubner 55:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:53 Like, for everybody.

Stephen Dubner 55:54 We did a piece, a Freakanomics Radio piece a year or two ago called America's Hidden Duopoly, and it was about the Democratic and Republican Party basically-

Joe Rogan 56:02 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 56:03 ... acting like Pep- Pepsi and Coke, right? They kinda divide and conquer the market, and they've built an industry that is incredibly valuable.

Joe Rogan 56:10 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 56:11 The thing that's amazing to me is this, uh, Trump won the presidency as the Republican that the RNC most wanted to get rid of. Bernie, last time around, was the Democrat that the DNC wanted to get rid of. They lost by getting their candidate, Hillary, in. This time, Bernie, who may very well become the candidate, is again the party that the DNC is out to get. So, what does it say that you've got a duopoly, literally the machines running the system that we kind of let ourselves get manipulated into buying? Like you said, I've never understood. My mom, my mom and dad were Democrats for a long, long time, typical Catholic f- okay, maybe not so typical 'cause they were former Jewish Catholics.

Joe Rogan 56:54 (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 56:54 But typical Catholic, working class, big family, meat and potatoes issues, no-brainer that they're Democrats, okay? And then, but my mom is a devout Catholic. She started the local Right to Life chapter in Upstate New York where we lived. New York State had legalized abortion before Roe v. Wade, so she was fighting that fight early. When that happened and the Democrats lined up against, uh, i- in favor of, uh, in favor of legalized abortion, she switched parties. Everything else about her was still mostly Democratic.

Joe Rogan 57:26 Mm.

Stephen Dubner 57:26 But she had to become a Republican.

Joe Rogan 57:28 Because of life. And that's a, that's another powerful one that-

Stephen Dubner 57:31 But-

Joe Rogan 57:31 ... gets integrated into the right.

Stephen Dubner 57:33 And it happens to all of us though.

Joe Rogan 57:34 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 57:34 We take ... There's one issue that kinda sets people off, and then they have to join the team-

Joe Rogan 57:39 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 57:39 ... that they may, uh-

Joe Rogan 57:40 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 57:41 ... you know?

Joe Rogan 57:41 With a lot of people I know, it's the Second Amendment.

Stephen Dubner 57:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:43 People that are afraid of their house being broken into and they don't have anything to protect their family, and that's-

Stephen Dubner 57:47 And they'd otherwise be kinda libertarianish Democrats, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:50 Exactly. And it's almost always guys who have kids.

Stephen Dubner 57:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:52 Once you have kids and you think about someone breaking into your house and, and doing something to your family, you know, you get real scared, and then you wanna get guns.

Stephen Dubner 57:59 All right. Let me ask you a slightly different question. Or it's actually a totally different (laughs) question. Um, as I'm sure you know, um, if you look at any indicator of, like, prosperity, longevity, health, literacy, access to food, et cetera, humankind is way better off than it's ever been.

Joe Rogan 58:17 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 58:18 No- without question.

Joe Rogan 58:19 No question.

Stephen Dubner 58:19 On average.

Joe Rogan 58:19 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 58:19 There's still a lot of people with a lot of trouble.

Joe Rogan 58:22 Yes. Yes.

Stephen Dubner 58:22 There are still parts of the world that are still in bad shape and so on.

Joe Rogan 58:24 But it's trending in an amazing direction.

Stephen Dubner 58:26 Amazing direction. Why are we so unhappy?

Joe Rogan 58:29 I don't think, um, we know how to manage our life correctly, and life doesn't come with a guidebook. It doesn't come with, "When you're in this condition, seek out these remedies. Start exercising, uh, get together with your friends, tell them you love them. Meet up and have dinner and hug each other."

Stephen Dubner 58:46 Sleep well.

Joe Rogan 58:47 Sleep well. Drink water. You know? There's-

Stephen Dubner 58:49 And whiskey.

Joe Rogan 58:50 ... w- little bit of whiskey too, right? And also, you know, so many of us have a bad head start. Like, you're starting off, you know, like, how about your dad? H- h- he, I mean, growing up getting, uh, g- kicked out of the family.

Stephen Dubner 59:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:05 I mean, and then starts a family of his own where you don't even know your grandfather. I mean, it's madness, right? Madness. So, you're, you're coming out of this stressful pocket, or maybe your dad goes to jail, or maybe your, your mom dies when you're young. All these things that happen to people where they have this bad start, right? And then they develop defense mechanisms to deal with all their insecurities, and they get around similar-minded people, and you curse the world, and "Fuck everybody" and "Fuck the police" and "Fuck the" this, and then you get in these communities of people that think the same way. And then maybe there's gangs, and maybe there's drugs, and maybe there's crime and despair, and sadness, and, and maybe just negative people. Maybe there's none of the above. Maybe there's no danger, it's just fucking annoying. Every day, people complaining about shit. And you're stuck in the mud of humanity with people. It's real hard to engineer 350 million people outta that. But for yourself, you can take actions to make your life better. And if everybody did that, if everybody took actions to make their life a happier experience by doing those things, by exercising, eating well, hugging friends, and, and enhancing community, just trying to be nicer to people, everybody did that, it would be a massive shift.

Stephen Dubner 1:00:15 So, let me ask you this. I feel like the list you just gave is basically my list too, right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 1:00:20 I try. That's what-

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 1:00:20 ... I try to do, pretty much. Um, and-... it, they all sound attractive.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 1:00:26 So, why is it so hard (laughs) for so many people to do it?

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Because people are lazy, and the reason why we're lazy is because it's very difficult for us to waste resources on something that we don't currently do. And even though we know something to be true, that if you do this physical thing-

Stephen Dubner 1:00:41 Long, long-term benefits are, right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 Yes, we know that, but short-term, it's like, "I don't wanna do it right now."

Stephen Dubner 1:00:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 'Cause y- your body, like, craves relaxation because it used to be a very rare thing to achieve.

Stephen Dubner 1:00:50 All right. So if you could pick one thing, let's say, let's say I'm a person-

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 I would never. Why would I pick one thing?

Stephen Dubner 1:00:55 Well, the first thing.

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 It's a comprehensive approach.

Stephen Dubner 1:00:56 Let's say the first thing. Let's say, let's say that I feel like, "You know what? Society says everything's great. I'm unhappy."

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Exercise.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:03 Financially o- okay.

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Exercise.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:04 Why is exercise the one?

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 Because you get your blood pumping.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 You release natural endorphins and you legitimately feel better. And then I also think of the, I think about this all the time. I think of your body as almost like the energy in your body is like a battery, and it requires a certain amount of use. And when you don't use it, it overflows. And then you get weird behavior and overreacting to things, and you almost, like, get antsy. Y- you gotta get up and move.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:27 Cognitively, it's a big-

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:29 ... I find. What do you do w- let's say, you have to f- take two long flights. Let's say you're unable to exercise for, like, you know, 24, 36 hours.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 Oh, you're fine. You don't have to do it every day.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:39 No, I mean you. You, do, do you not-

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 I don't do it every day.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:40 You don't?

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 No.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:41 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 I take days off.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 Yeah. Yeah, it's fine.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 It's fine. The, the whole key is just to develop regular habits. If you have to take two or three days off, it doesn't matter. The whole key is just regular habits, where you're-

Stephen Dubner 1:01:50 What's your sleep, uh, r- r- regime?

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 Oh, I have a Whoop, and my Whoop-

Stephen Dubner 1:01:54 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 My Whoop tells me every night how much I sleep.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:57 Yeah. And, um, has it improved?

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 And how my life goes along.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:58 Has the feedback-

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 1:01:59 ... improved your sleeping?

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Um, because it made me accountable.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 Like, I was like, "Ah, I get, like, seven, eight hours every night, eh." I was getting, like, four and five.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 And I was like, "Oh, you lying bitch."

Stephen Dubner 1:02:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 So it made me- (laughs) It made me concentrate more on getting more sleep.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:10 What do you do to sleep better or sleep well?

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 It's just a matter of the time. It's a matter of when I decide I have to get up.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:15 Do you not, did you change, like, do you sleep with earplugs and eye mask, anything like that?

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 I don't have a problem sleeping.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:20 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 I sleep well.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:21 You just-

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 The problem is doing things and waking up early. And I realize, like, "Okay, I g- if I'm gonna wake up that early, I gotta go to bed earlier."

Stephen Dubner 1:02:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 I really need to-

Stephen Dubner 1:02:28 You're not a napper?

Joe Rogan 1:02:30 No, I don't nap. No.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:31 How come?

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Um, I just never enjoy it.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:33 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:34 You never tried it? You only-

Joe Rogan 1:02:36 But no, I have. No, but it doesn't work.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:37 Ah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 Like, when, when I'm done, I'm done.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:39 Do you drink caffeine?

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:41 Have you ever tried the caffeine nap? Do you know about that?

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 Yes, yes.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:44 I-

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Yeah, I know what it is.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:44 So, you-

Joe Rogan 1:02:45 But that's not my problem.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:46 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 My problem is, uh, when I'm off- when I shut down, I shut down.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:49 So w- a 20-minute nap becomes eight hours of sleep.

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 I'm not interested in that.

Stephen Dubner 1:02:52 I gotcha. I'm hearing you.

Joe Rogan 1:02:53 I'll be, I'll be s- laying down for hours. (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 1:02:55 I mean, look, I don't mean to criticize your productivity.

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 No, no, it's fine. (laughs)

Stephen Dubner 1:02:56 You're plenty productive, plainly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 No, it's, but it's, there's a balance. There's a balance between being productive and being happy, right? And I think it's hard to find that balance because we look at, like, the, the numbers that come in, whether it's money or productivity, or, you know, the number of things you've been able to create. And you think of that as being like, "But look, I can get so much done." But if you maybe got less of those numbers, but more of the numbers in terms of the amount of sleep you got, you would enjoy the whole overall experience more.

Stephen Dubner 1:03:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 Like-

Stephen Dubner 1:03:25 I worry that, uh, I think for a lot of people who are successful in different realms, could be sports, business, entertainment, whatever, success is intoxicating.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 Yes.

Stephen Dubner 1:03:35 And then you want more of it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:37 Right.

Stephen Dubner 1:03:38 And then it becomes very easy to see that as the main goal at the expense of loved ones, other people.

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 Yep.

Stephen Dubner 1:03:47 I'm looking for, uh, I'd like to know how p- a- and I know some people do manage that really well, and I know some incredibly successful people are incredibly generous in spirit to people around them, but I find that's pretty rare. I find that, uh, success often is driven by a sort of ambition that's a little bit unseemly. And I'd like to know how to deal with that a little bit better.

Joe Rogan 1:04:07 Well, it doesn't have to be, but it seems like it would be if it's a number game, right? If, if success meaning, like, you're in a business, you're trying to sell the most placards or whatever-

Stephen Dubner 1:04:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 ... like, whatever it is, you know, you have this thing in your head and like, you're really driven, but-

Stephen Dubner 1:04:22 Can I just say, if you're selling placards, you're already starting behind. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 (laughs) Okay, widgets.

Stephen Dubner 1:04:27 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 You're selling the most widgets, and you, you have this goal in your mind of being number one, and you're obsessed, and, you know, and everyone's gonna tell your story. "Oh, Bob, he wouldn't let it go."

Stephen Dubner 1:04:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 "Every time I got there, he was in the office, and he left after everybody. But look, now Bob's got a fucking yacht, and he's also got a pacemaker," right?

Stephen Dubner 1:04:42 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 Bob's ready to tick over any minute now.

Stephen Dubner 1:04:44 But also, I think the thing is, is in pursuit of success, I think what often happens that I've seen in people I know and in people I don't know but I've read about, is that your moral compass starts to shift.

Joe Rogan 1:04:57 Oh, that's-

Stephen Dubner 1:04:58 And you're willing to-

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 ... but that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of people that are successful, and we're only talking about business, right? We're not talking-

Stephen Dubner 1:05:03 Uh...

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 ... about athletics, are we?

Stephen Dubner 1:05:04 I, I'm talking, I'm thinking of some people in academia who, uh, you know, even though the average person may not consider the stakes in academia super high, but like, if you get in a, a big university department and you start to write papers and get published and then get grants and accolades and so on, you're on a trajectory that's very intoxicating.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 1:05:25 And then all of a sudden, I think it's, uh, it's more, I think it's tempting, or not even tempting, I, I don't think it's even a conscious decision. You start to make decisions that are not as sound, not as morally acceptable as you would've made five years ago when you were starting out. And I don't li- I see that happening a lot. I see it in media. I see people cutting corners. I see it in business, um, with-

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 Ah... The academia, I don't have any experience with, but I, I would imagine that that would be particularly frustrating because those are the people that you call upon to be the objective purveyors of knowledge.

Stephen Dubner 1:05:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 Are these the people that are t- talking to you about this because th- they're dedicated to being intellectual?

Stephen Dubner 1:06:03 Exactly. But look-

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 Because often, you don't wanna think of them as being a social climber.

Stephen Dubner 1:06:05 ... how, how strange is this, though? How strange is it that we talk about economists for, just for one example, but it's a good example because-

Joe Rogan 1:06:11 It's a good example.

Stephen Dubner 1:06:12 ... 'cause they're the most involved in policy and so on.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dubner 1:06:14 There are Democratic economists and there are Republican economists. You know, that shouldn't make sense.

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 Right.

Stephen Dubner 1:06:20 Right? But it does. There's a list that when you're, if you're a Republican and you win the White House and you start to assemble your Council of Economic Advisers, you get the list of the Republican or the conservative economists. Now, I'm not saying that's a terrible thing pre m- b- you know, per se, but the fact is, is that, like we said before, if you're in the tribe, if you're for one thing, you gotta be in for everything.

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 Yeah.

Stephen Dubner 1:06:42 And that's not a good way...

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 It's so m- much of what goes on between the two parties ultimately, uh, uh, in a lot of cases that we've experienced have been about perception. Like, there's a difference between the perceived actions of Barack Obama versus the perceived actions of George Bush. Like, even though, like, things that would freak people out about Bush-... people didn't really seem to budge on with Obama, like drone attacks.

Stephen Dubner 1:07:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:03 Like, a lot of people killed in drones attacks that were innocent.

Stephen Dubner 1:07:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 And that happened during the Bush administration and it happened-

Stephen Dubner 1:07:10 And Obama.

Joe Rogan 1:07:10 ... during the Obama admin- ... but people, particularly on the left, treated the Bush administration's drone attacks very differently than they treated it when Obama was doing it. They seemed to, like, let it go, because it didn't fit with their narrative of the evil, you know, military-industrial complex-influenced president who only gives a fuck about money. It didn't, didn't seem to jive with that, so they, they let it go. And they ... because