Joe Rogan Experience #1437 - Stephen Dubner

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... ready, young Jamie.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... ready, young Jamie.

   2. NANarrator0:00

      Three, two-

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Here we go. (slaps desk) How are you, sir?

   4. SDStephen Dubner0:04

      I'm great, thanks.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      (laughs) Good. Nice to meet you.

   6. SDStephen Dubner0:07

      Nice to meet you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Um, we were talking before, uh, about Adam Curry, who was just here, who has these crazy ear enhancements that are these, uh, software-based, so he can tweak it and change levels and stuff like that. And you were saying that you also have h- hearing, but you get it from rock and roll.

   8. SDStephen Dubner0:22

      Yeah, I, I mean, honestly, I've never been tested. I just know that when I'm out eating with my family or friends, that everybody can hear everything, and I can't hear anything. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:31

      Yeah.

   10. SDStephen Dubner0:31

       So, uh, but no, I, yeah, I played r- loud rock music for, mm, six, seven, eight, nine years. And, uh, yeah, it- it- it- it does what they say it does. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       Yeah, they- they know what they're doing-

   12. SDStephen Dubner0:43

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       ... those, those people that tell you not to do that.

   14. SDStephen Dubner0:45

       But look, I like the technology. Like, I have older relatives who have a hearing aid, or whatever they're called now, hearing enhancement devices that are, like, lightyears better than they used to be.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. SDStephen Dubner0:56

       So I figure if I can hold out a couple more years, mine are gonna, like, be so good they'll take out the garbage too.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Well, the ones that Adam has sound pretty fucking amazing. Um, he said it, it just sounds incredible and that he can actually tune into people that are 50 feet away, 50 feet away having a conversation, he can hear them.

   18. SDStephen Dubner1:10

       And can you tune out people you don't like?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       That's a good question. I bet there is a way. I bet he ... Well, he has various settings, but I bet there's, like, a tone the world out setting.

   20. SDStephen Dubner1:19

       (laughs) I don't need to tone the world, there are just some people-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       Sometimes.

   22. SDStephen Dubner1:22

       ... you know?

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       Yeah. Have you used any of those AirPods that have the noise-canceling technology?

   24. SDStephen Dubner1:27

       Oh, uh, not AirPods, but I wear Bose noise-cancelers-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:30

       The head- headphones?

   26. SDStephen Dubner1:31

       ... almost-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       Yeah.

   28. SDStephen Dubner1:31

       ... every day. Um, I wear them a lot. Oh, you know, when I started, uh, as a journalist in newsrooms, uh, this was, whatever, early, late 80s, early 90s, um, I didn't ... Like, a- a newsroom is an open place, and a lot of people back then were on the phone doing your reporting. It was pre-internet reporting, right? And, uh, I didn't ... You're a writer, you're writing and you're editing, and I, I didn't understand how people could think with all this din going on. I c- I couldn't do it.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:59

       Yeah.

   30. SDStephen Dubner1:59

       So I started wearing just the good foam earplugs. They're made by, uh, Flance, I think is the brand that I use. They're kinda non-tapered, and they're very thick. And if you compress them and put them in, it'll block out, like, you know, 70, 80%. So I've been shutting out the world for, like, 25 years now.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   You were working in…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      20s.

   2. SDStephen Dubner15:00

      You were working in clubs in New York at that age?

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      Yeah.

   4. SDStephen Dubner15:02

      Or right, right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      I was working in clubs in New York, and I was doing a lot of road gigs. And, uh, was playing a lot of pool. And I was, uh, hanging around with a bunch of comedians. And I wasn't going on any hikes.

   6. SDStephen Dubner15:11

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      We were, we were in a ... You know, I would go to the gym occasionally and work out, but we were, we were doing comedy, you know? But as a grownup ... And, uh, I usually run with my dog, he loves to run. And I haven't been able to, uh, run recently because of a little injury. (clears throat) So like for the last two months, I'd just been walking with him and then hiking on the trails, and he runs around and ... When I was doing it, I was realizing, like, I can listen to podcasts or I g- I can listen to music, or I could just do it silent. And when I do it silent, it's, like, really interesting. There's, there's, there's inner dialogue that starts playing out. And it's like you're having a conversation with yourself, that it's a little ther- therapeutic. So I go on these hour walks with my dog. And at the end of it, you know, I feel like I've got some, a b- better handle on stuff.

   8. SDStephen Dubner15:55

      I wonder, what you're saying makes me think, and I hope it's not too late for our episode on noise, 'cause this is actually a component that'd be good to get at, is-

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:02

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SDStephen Dubner16:03

       ... like, the way you just described si- quiet, or solitude, whatever it is, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:09

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SDStephen Dubner16:09

       I think almost everybody who hears that would say, "Oh, yeah, I definitely see the value of that." Because, you know, you need time to process your thoughts-

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:18

       Yeah.

   14. SDStephen Dubner16:18

       ... to, to feel things, whatever. But it does make me wonder, the world is obviously more noisy now than it used to be. (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:24

       Yeah, way more.

   16. SDStephen Dubner16:25

       And I do wonder if you just get conditioned out of even thinking about that. Like, my kids, who are teenagers, like, I don't see them ever having silence or solitude.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       Right.

   18. SDStephen Dubner16:37

       And, again, I don't wanna be judging, I don't wanna be the generation ... 'Cause every generation thinks that what the next generation does is horrible. Like, the people, you know, when The Rolling Stones came, the people who like Perry Como said, "This is the worst music ever." And then the people after that said The Rolling Stones, y- you know, et cetera. But I do wonder how much we're losing by not having availability of that quiet. 'Cause you kinda, it's, uh ... Unless you build your life to have a lot of silence, which I do 'cause I'm a writer and I sit alone all day, um, not many people get to have that. And I wonder what the loss is.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:10

       There's gotta be something, because there's a shift in intention. There's, uh, uh, uh, attention rather, and then there's a shift in focus that's dramatic. We've gone from just looking at the world around us to fixated on a device. You know, you look at people's phone time, it's, a lot of times it's six hours in a day. They're just constantly on their phone on, on the toilet, constantly on their phone when they go to get a coffee, on their phone at their desk, texting people while they're walking to the other office. They're texting and walking down the hallway. I mean, most people are on those goddamn things all day long. And there's, for sure, you're putting energy into that little device, which means you're not putting energy into thinking without that device. And though you might think of it as a, "Well, I'm just, I'm still paying attention, I'm just doing this." But you're not. You're not dedicating any resource to being bored, and to thinking about shit, and to just walking and talking to yourself.

   20. SDStephen Dubner18:02

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:02

       Like, thinking to yourself. And there's something about, like, a long hike, you take a dog for a couple mile hike, where you're just walking and you hear crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch. And you're just thinking. And no one's talking to you, and you're not talking to anybody. You're just walking and talking with your dog, and then you're thinking about stuff in a way that is like a tangible sorta meditation on your life. It's like, it's a real moment. And we d- don't value that real moment. We think of it almost as, like, waste. I don't ... Not even listening to anything, no good tunes.

   22. SDStephen Dubner18:30

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:31

       But it's really like, there's value in thinking. And we, we, we haven't put a, a, a value judgment or a number judgment on that.

   24. SDStephen Dubner18:39

       It's interesting, some of the people you hear these days talking the most about, uh, really limiting or even forbidding their kids screen time-

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:47

       Yeah.

   26. SDStephen Dubner18:47

       ... is Silicon Valley executives.

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:49

       Oh, yeah.

   28. SDStephen Dubner18:50

       That's where, you know-

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:51

       Yeah. They're smart. (laughs)

   30. SDStephen Dubner18:51

       So you have to ... Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah, I think if…

   1. SDStephen Dubner30:00

      the good one.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:01

      Yeah, I think if we're gonna do something like that, we bring in James Randi.

   3. SDStephen Dubner30:04

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      We have him-

   5. SDStephen Dubner30:04

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:05

      ... sit and go by the rules, and, and someone like Penn Jillette, who will be able to-

   7. SDStephen Dubner30:09

      Ah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:09

      'Cause he understands all those carny tricks where they do where they can pretend that they're psychic-

   9. SDStephen Dubner30:13

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:13

       ... just by leading you into questions.

   11. SDStephen Dubner30:14

       But you know what's funny? I think he's a pretty strongly professed atheist, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:18

       Yes, he is. Yeah.

   13. SDStephen Dubner30:18

       Right? But somehow I find his talking about the subject incredibly, like, uh, embracing.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       Yes.

   15. SDStephen Dubner30:23

       Like, he does it right because it's a smart way of doing it. He understands-

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:26

       He's a generous person.

   17. SDStephen Dubner30:27

       He is, yeah. Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:27

       He's a really, really nice person. And that's, even if he disagrees with you on something, he's, he'll laugh and joke around, but he's, um, he's a nice person. Like, he'll, he'll let you have these conversations and, and not ... Like, some people try to shove their atheism down your throat and, like, mock you. And, uh, I just don't ... All you're doing is reinforcing the ideas of these people 'cause you're acting like an asshole.

   19. SDStephen Dubner30:50

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan30:50

       So they're like, "Well, th- that, I'm now connecting atheism with asshole."

   21. SDStephen Dubner30:54

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:54

       "So fuck atheists, fucking assholes," you know? And then that's what people do. It's like a natural-

   23. SDStephen Dubner30:59

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:00

       It's a n- nat- but if someone's nice, you know. Um, did you ever, uh, do you know the story of Darrell Davis?

   25. SDStephen Dubner31:06

       Mm-mm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       Darrell Davis is gentleman who's been on this podcast before. And he is a musician by trade, but he has converted over 200 different guys to leave, um, the KKK and Nazi organizations.

   27. SDStephen Dubner31:19

       Wow.

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:19

       And he's converted it by becoming their friend.'Cause he was doing a show and this guy came... I'm, I'm butchering it, and I'm sorry, Darryl, but, uh, this is what he said on the, the podcast. I'm sure he'd do a better job of telling the story. But he was at a show, and he was playing in this band, and this guy said, "You were really good." You know? And he sat down with the guy, and the guy said, "I never had a drink with a Black guy before." And he's like, "How is that possible?" And he, and he shows him his card, he's in the KKK. Wow. And so he's like, he goes, "Well, how... You're having a rational conversation with me, a normal conversation with me, like, do you, you really think that Black men are evil or Black men are dumb?" And they have this conversation, this civil conversation. And then he gives the guy his, uh, I think he gave him his phone number. He said, uh, "I'll, I'll call you when I'm back in town if you wanna have this conversation again." And so then they become friends. And so they go back and forth for like months, hanging out. And then, uh, th- three f- three months or so into the friendship, the guy brings his KKK outfit and he goes, "I wanna give this to you 'cause I'm never wearing it again." He goes, "I'm done." And from being this guy's friend- Unreal. ...and so then he meets a bunch of other ones, and he starts talking to them. And just nice as pie, just nice, friendly, intelligent, super articulate too, so it's hard to, hard to describe him as dumb when he's way smarter than you.

   29. SDStephen Dubner32:32

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:33

       Right? You're talking to him and he's, he's so eloquent. So he converts more and more and more. He converted a guy who was a Nazi, who's a... He's, he's converted a bunch of people. Like it's more than 200 now. And he continues to do it. And there's been... There's some p- pieces about it online, but hearing him say it and hearing him talk about it is the m- the most amazing. He just... He grew up in a way that he r- didn't really experience racism until he came to, uh, America. I think he said he was like six years old. It was... He's from Italy, right? That's where he was from before that, up until then I think. Somewhere where he just didn't experience it. And then when he was a, a little boy, people were throwing things at him in a parade and he d- had no idea. He couldn't understand it. He'd never... He didn't know. And s- they had to pull him aside and say, "It's because you're Black." He's like, "What?" Like he couldn't believe it. So because the fact that he didn't have it in his early childhood, and then he had it when he was y- a, a young boy and realized how crazy it was that he didn't experience this before this one moment and became obsessed with it. It was Italy?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   We certainly do have…

   1. SDStephen Dubner45:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      We certainly do have some bits that you know work.

   3. SDStephen Dubner45:02

      Because, like, when you say, like if you bomb or somebody else bombs, you could give exactly the same set an hour later to a slightly different crowd and it would go great, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SDStephen Dubner45:12

      Or no?

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      Sometimes. Sometimes you're bombing because you get off on a bad start, like you'll, you'll come up with... Like, the real sketchy time is when you're writing new material. That's when it's, that's touch and go. The way I always like to describe it, it's like you have no weapons, like you're going into a fight, but everything's made out of rubber. Like, "Fuck."

   7. SDStephen Dubner45:29

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:29

      Like, nothing's good yet, right?

   9. SDStephen Dubner45:31

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:31

       Like when you, when you have new material, you have a stack of notes and they've got-

   11. SDStephen Dubner45:34

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:34

       ... like four or five premises and one or two of them might be any good. But I got to go through those other premises that suck multiple times-

   13. SDStephen Dubner45:41

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:41

       ... to find out for sure that they're no good.

   15. SDStephen Dubner45:42

       All right, let me ask you a question. When that's happening to you, um, do you learn over time to not let it hurt your ego to the point where you're gonna get even worse? In other words, if you're not doing well-

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:56

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SDStephen Dubner45:56

       ... what you need to do is you s- you need to say, "I've got this material, I need to work on it 'cause it's gonna get better." But I could imagine that if you start bombing, what happens is you just feel so hurt that you get worse and worse as you go. How do you fight against that?

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:11

       Yeah, it's a psychological mind game. For sure, you, you definitely could... Look, and, and I've seen it happen to comedians while they're riding a whole new hour. It's almost like they, they lose their glow as a human, because they're just eating shit all the time.

   19. SDStephen Dubner46:25

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:25

       And we get away from them like they're diseased.

   21. SDStephen Dubner46:28

       Really?

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:28

       Like, if someone bombs and they come off stage, like, "Oh." You get away from them, because we know what it's like. It's like, "Oh, I don't even wanna hug them."

   23. SDStephen Dubner46:34

       Does it feel contagious?

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:35

       A little bit. Yeah, it's... You gotta get out of the room. Like, one of the worst things that people do and I don't know why they do it, but a lot of comedians like to bring terrible comedians with them on the road so that they look like a hero.

   25. SDStephen Dubner46:46

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       It's a really sneaky move. And they, they literally hire people that don't work any other way. They don't-

   27. SDStephen Dubner46:52

       Is that a bad idea ultimately, though?

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:54

       It's a terrible idea.

   29. SDStephen Dubner46:55

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:55

       Because you want everybody to have fun and if you make them sit through 20 minutes of someone who's terrible, you're torturing them.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:07:34

   So, let me ask…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      did that, if everybody took actions to make their life a happier experience by doing those things, by exercising, eating well, hugging friends, and, and enhancing community, just trying to be nicer to people, everybody did that, it would be a massive shift.

   2. SDStephen Dubner1:00:15

      So, let me ask you this. I feel like the list you just gave is basically my list too, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

      Yeah.

   4. SDStephen Dubner1:00:20

      I try. That's what-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

      Yes.

   6. SDStephen Dubner1:00:20

      ... I try to do, pretty much. Um, and-... it, they all sound attractive.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

      Yes.

   8. SDStephen Dubner1:00:26

      So, why is it so hard (laughs) for so many people to do it?

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:30

      Because people are lazy, and the reason why we're lazy is because it's very difficult for us to waste resources on something that we don't currently do. And even though we know something to be true, that if you do this physical thing-

   10. SDStephen Dubner1:00:41

       Long, long-term benefits are, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:42

       Yes, we know that, but short-term, it's like, "I don't wanna do it right now."

   12. SDStephen Dubner1:00:44

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:45

       'Cause y- your body, like, craves relaxation because it used to be a very rare thing to achieve.

   14. SDStephen Dubner1:00:50

       All right. So if you could pick one thing, let's say, let's say I'm a person-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

       I would never. Why would I pick one thing?

   16. SDStephen Dubner1:00:55

       Well, the first thing.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       It's a comprehensive approach.

   18. SDStephen Dubner1:00:56

       Let's say the first thing. Let's say, let's say that I feel like, "You know what? Society says everything's great. I'm unhappy."

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

       Exercise.

   20. SDStephen Dubner1:01:03

       Financially o- okay.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

       Exercise.

   22. SDStephen Dubner1:01:04

       Why is exercise the one?

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

       Because you get your blood pumping.

   24. SDStephen Dubner1:01:07

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

       You release natural endorphins and you legitimately feel better. And then I also think of the, I think about this all the time. I think of your body as almost like the energy in your body is like a battery, and it requires a certain amount of use. And when you don't use it, it overflows. And then you get weird behavior and overreacting to things, and you almost, like, get antsy. Y- you gotta get up and move.

   26. SDStephen Dubner1:01:27

       Cognitively, it's a big-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

       Yes.

   28. SDStephen Dubner1:01:29

       ... I find. What do you do w- let's say, you have to f- take two long flights. Let's say you're unable to exercise for, like, you know, 24, 36 hours.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

       Oh, you're fine. You don't have to do it every day.

   30. SDStephen Dubner1:01:39

       No, I mean you. You, do, do you not-

Episode duration: 2:46:24