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Joe Rogan Experience #1442 - Shannon O'Loughlin

Shannon O'Loughlin is the Executive Director and attorney for the Association on American Indian Affairs, and she is also a citizen of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma.

Joe RoganhostShannon O'Loughlinguest
Mar 17, 20202h 36mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 15:00

    All right, here we…

    1. JR

      All right, here we go. Hello, Shannon. What's happening?

    2. SO

      I'm doing well. How are you?

    3. JR

      Thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

    4. SO

      Uh, this is an incredible opportunity. I'm glad you, you're interested in the subject of American Indian history, and I'm glad to be here to talk about it.

    5. JR

      Yeah, I'm glad you were willing to come here. Uh, yeah, I became fascinated when I, um... Well, I've always been sort of, uh, peripherally interested, but never really delved into it until I read Empire of the Summer Moon. And then, you know, uh... Have you read that? S.G. Gwyn's book about the Comanches-

    6. SO

      Nope.

    7. JR

      ... and about the Texas rangers? And it's such a crazy story that I, I just became obsessed. And then, uh, I read, uh, Son of the Morning Star and then I read, uh, Black Elk. The Black Elk one was particularly fascinating to me because it details life, uh, before, um, like before they killed Custer to living on reservations to the desperation. Why don't you-

    8. SO

      Right.

    9. JR

      Before we get started, tell people what you are, who you are and what you do.

    10. SO

      (laughs) So my name is Shannon O'Lachlan. I'm a citizen of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. I've been a practicing attorney since about 2001. And I'm currently the executive director and attorney for the Association on American Indian Affairs. We're the oldest nonprofit serving Indian country. We've been around since 1922.

    11. JR

      All right. And, uh, we should tell people, if you ever listen to this in the future, this is all going on right now when the United States is going through one of the craziest times ever in terms of dealing with a virus.

    12. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      We're, we're on, sort of on lockdown. All gyms are closed, all comedy shows are closed, all concerts are closed, clubs, bars, everything's closed. Um, and some places are restricting travel. And, uh, it, it, it's, it's interesting to me that, um, this is all going on and we've never had to experience this before. But it makes me think of what happens when, what happened when the Europeans first came to North America and encountered the Native Americans and they didn't have any immunity to all these diseases that the Europeans were bringing over, and in some cases, wiped out as much as 90%-

    14. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      ... of the people that were living here.

    16. SO

      Mm-hmm. But we're still here. Yeah, if we would've only shut the borders about 550 years ago, we would've... (laughs)

    17. JR

      (laughs) Yeah, if you had a Trump-

    18. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      ... a, a Trump Indian back then-

    20. SO

      (laughs)

    21. JR

      ... want, wanting to build walls around everywhere.

    22. SO

      Oh, God.

    23. JR

      Um-

    24. SO

      Let's not get there.

    25. JR

      Yeah, let's not.

    26. SO

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      It's... I mean, it is, um... I mean, really, it's the... I mean, it's one of the biggest times in human history where if you talk about Europeans coming to North America and what, what happened to the Native Americans just from diseases.

    28. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JR

      I mean, it's, it's one of the biggest genocides in history. Now, now when you talk about 90% of a population wiped out by disease, I mean, that's almost, almost impossible to understand.

    30. SO

      But the genocide didn't happen because of the disease. The disease did what the diseases did, but the genocide happened through colonization. The genocide happened through US Indian policy that continues today. The genocide is ongoing. So, this is not something from the past. This is something that continues today that we still are working to fight against. That's why the- my organization is here.

  2. 15:00 – 30:00

    But you know the…

    1. JR

      I don't even know where that came from, somebody sent me that. But that, he was the last Comanche chief. Uh, and they, by the... D- during her lifetime and her son's lifetime was the last of it. And it's a very sad story and it's a horrible story.

    2. SO

      But you know the Comanches still live today, right?

    3. JR

      Yes.

    4. SO

      You-

    5. JR

      Sure, in Oklahoma, right?

    6. SO

      Yes.

    7. JR

      There's, there's quite a few of them.

    8. SO

      Yes.

    9. JR

      I- I've actually been in contact with some of those guys.

    10. SO

      Oh, that's awesome.

    11. JR

      Yes, it's very cool. Um, but they do, but they don't live the way they did, right? I mean, th- their way of life was removed. I mean, they were wiped out in, in, in that one- in that sense.

    12. SO

      But cultures aren't static.

    13. JR

      Right.

    14. SO

      And we're not static. And I think one of the, the, the major issues that American Indians have is that we're often stereotyped into this, uh, this picture and if we don't fit that then we're not legitimately Indian. When you, when you first met me, what did you think? Did you think, "Well, hmm, where's her brown skin? Where's, where's the feathers?" I mean, this is-

    15. JR

      No, I did not think that. (laughs)

    16. SO

      No, I don't think you did. But and I- and I guess-

    17. JR

      Some people do?

    18. SO

      ... it's a rhetorical question. Oh, hell yes. So-

    19. JR

      Well, are you 100% Native American?

    20. SO

      No, absolutely not.

    21. JR

      What percentage are you?

    22. SO

      Um, and that's, that's... Let's talk-

    23. JR

      Is it racist?

    24. SO

      ... about that. Let's talk about that.

    25. JR

      Can you say that?

    26. SO

      What other... Um, so blood quantum is an imposition from the federal government that is... that has been used to weed out Native Americans. So the whole, the whole idea of US federal policy has been to assimilate Indians, to rid themselves of the Indian problem so that land and resources could be obtained, right?

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. SO

      And so blood quantum was one way that the US government could do that. So if you, if you didn't meet what they thought was some kind of purity test, then they could write you off.

    29. JR

      Mm.

    30. SO

      Right? Um, but that is not how, uh, many, um, Indian nations view, uh, tribal citizenship or membership. It's through other types of cultural continuity, family relationships, and it's not about race. Um, that's been an imposition on us. So I'm Polish and Choctaw.

  3. 30:00 – 45:00

    Mm-hmm. …

    1. JR

      talk about it, especially because it's coming from the words of Black Elk, who was a guy that was there, um, with the Battle at Little Bighorn-

    2. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      ... and then from then now is an older man talking about what, what his experiences have been like, uh, having had seen his people moved to reservations-

    4. SO

      Right.

    5. JR

      ... and seeing it.... basically every single treaty broken. I mean, was there a single treaty that United States had with the Indians that it didn't break?

    6. SO

      Mm-mm.

    7. JR

      That w-... That's insane. I mean, every single one.

    8. SO

      Um, and most treaties had some similar language. Uh, a lot of them talked about, uh, they had bad man provisions. So bad man provisions were basically, if our men, uh, the US, if our, uh, men come in and to your, um, jurisdiction and do something bad, we'll take care of it for you. Um, you know, just some simple provisions like that, but that never, uh, was enforced. Um, the US let, uh, let their people come in and, and take over, um, what were supposed to be protective areas of land. Uh, and it... And that was just constant. That happened, that happened everywhere. So there were bad man provisions, there were a lot of provisions, a lot of beautiful provisions that, that, that tribes still talk about today, you know, as, as long as the, the grass grows and, um, you know, we'll have our lands. And, and none of these provisions were ever, um, upheld. And, uh, a lot of the East Coast tribes, their, um, their boundaries were changed and new treaties were made and accepted and, and re- removal happened and then there were new treaties. Um, and nothing was ever maintained.

    9. JR

      Where did you grow up? Did you grow up in Oklahoma?

    10. SO

      In Oklahoma, yeah.

    11. JR

      Did you grow up on a reservation?

    12. SO

      Uh, so Oklahoma is an interesting case. So, um, uh, Oklahoma did have set aside lands. So Choctaw had their area, Chickasaw, and the other tribes, uh, that were removed to Oklahoma. And by the way, um, because of that removal there, tribes that were already there were removed. So there were already tribes there, the Caddo and Comanche and other, other tribes that this was already their land. Um, so new tribes moved in, um, and, uh, land, uh, during the... um, I'm forgetting my dates now, but, um, uh, there was a, a Dawes Commission, um, around 1906 or so where, uh, uh, there was a census and, uh, individual Indians were allotted about 160 acres apiece. Uh, and this was an effort to, uh, decrease the amount of land base that tribes held in common, right? And this happened all across the country, not just in Oklahoma, where there were allotment policies. And I believe there, um, uh, there were about... Oh, heck, I'm not good with numbers. I think there were, like, 19 million acres that, that were removed this way of, of land. Um, but what happened today, there is a criminal case before the Supreme Court that is actually addressing these issues because even though our lands were allotted, the exterior boundaries of our reservations, the area that we had agreed to live in, they've never been d- extinguished. They've never been diminished. And, uh, so the Supreme Courts is ac- uh Supreme Court is actually looking at this issue now as to whether we still have jurisdiction within the exterior boundaries of our reservations in Oklahoma. Um...

    13. JR

      Who would that extend to? Uh, cities? Is there... Are there cities in Oklahoma that are in those areas now?

    14. SO

      Oh, yeah. So if you think of-

    15. JR

      Like Tulsa?

    16. SO

      Yeah. So that's Creek Nation. Um-

    17. JR

      So Tulsa would be owned.

    18. SO

      Well, so, so... Not necessarily. So, so it's raised a lot of fear with, with non-Indians about-

    19. JR

      Wonder why. (laughs)

    20. SO

      Yeah. "The Indians are taking back the land."

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. SO

      "Oh, my God." Um, uh, but what would actually happen, there's a lot of p- uh, places in Indian country where there's allotment and there's, there's, uh, non-Indian individuals who, who have fee land within the exterior boundaries of reservations and then individual Indians ow- owning fee land within the exterior boundaries of reservation.

    23. JR

      You're saying fee land?

    24. SO

      Fee land. So just how you would-

    25. JR

      So you pay a fee?

    26. SO

      No, no. So how you own land.

    27. JR

      Okay.

    28. SO

      It's called... It's not restricted. It's, it's, it's in fee. Uh, you own the title to that land, right? Uh, a lot of land held by tribes is in trust or in restricted fee. So, um, uh, uh, a, a common area land, like s-... like, let's look at, um, uh, the Onondaga Nation in, in New York State. They have, um, the exterior boundaries of their reservation, they own, uh, restricted fee land. So they own it, but they can't sell it without US permission, all right?

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. SO

      Um, trust land is similar and it's treated the same as restricted fee, but it's held in trust. So the US has more control of, of, of what happens on that land or has been seen to have a little more control than it would in, in just restricted fee. Um, but within the exterior boundaries of the reservation, you can have this checker boarded, uh, ownership of land of non-Indians and Indians and, and, um, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the tribe has jurisdiction, um, over the non-Indian fee land. And the, the civil and criminal jurisdiction issues on an area of land like that is extremely complex and continues to be, um, um, argued in the courts. Um, uh, and, uh, most of the time, um, our jurisdiction, uh, i-... most of the time, we lose those cases, especially since, um, the 80s and 90s. Um, and up until today, we've, uh, there was really a change in kind of how the Supreme Court decided Indian law cases. Uh, so, um, if we go back into the history of, of federal Indian policy, you see this kind of weird schizophrenic, you know, tho- those, those, uh, uh, those martial cases that I talked about. They really set forward kind of schizophrenic principles, that, that Indians are sovereign but they're, they're just a ward, and they're uncivilized. So, we have to take care of them, but they're sovereign. And so you have at different areas... eras of time, uh, policymakers who, who support tribal sovereignty and will use those cases to help support that sovereignty, and then there are other, um, administrations that come around, um, not talking about, uh, any current administration, but, um, uh, th- that, that use those cases against us, um, and, and degrade policy and degrade any kind of rights that we may have gained in, in other eras. So, it's, it's really been, you know, Indians today live in this... (sighs) live in such an insecure world. You know, our statistics are horrible. You know, the, uh, suicide rate for our youth, uh, our high school graduates, everything that you could possibly think of (laughs) that there's a statistic on, we're usually the lowest. We're the worst. And it's because we live in a, a society that is constantly changing. We can never depend on whether or not our rights are secured, whether or not we're gonna have land, jobs, um, uh, be able to practice our culture. We're still trying to... You know, there were a period of, uh, periods of time in, in our history where, um, people would steal our religious objects and our sacred items, they still do, um, and loot our graves. Um, there, there's an, uh, law called the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act that was meant to repatriate those stolen items and those stolen ancestors back to tribes so that we could help with our cultural revitalization as well as put our ancestors back to rest. Um, uh, there are still at least 200,000 ancestors in boxes in museums.

  4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

    That's an offensive r-…

    1. JR

      word, like, say-

    2. SO

      That's an offensive r-

    3. JR

      ... me even saying that, like, right there? Is that offensive?

    4. SO

      Yes. Yes. Um, not to everybody. Um, but the majority of, of Native American groups, tribes, they've all, uh, let the team know that that, uh, that that name is offensive. Uh, and they still won't change it. They don't, uh ... They say it's honoring, it's honoring Native Americans. Uh, that term is used, um, uh, and you see it in historic records, uh, to count, um, Indian skins or scalps that have been, uh, taken from, uh, Indian people. Um, i- it's an offensive ... It's not just derogatory, um, or demeaning, but it's, um-

    5. JR

      And we should be really clear what you're saying when you're saying skins and scalps. You mean dead people.

    6. SO

      Yeah. Yeah.

    7. JR

      D- yeah.

    8. SO

      Um, uh, n- yeah. And sorry. Um-

    9. JR

      No, no worries.

    10. SO

      Uh-

    11. JR

      Listen, this is the number one reason why I wanted to have you here.

    12. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      You know, I want it, I want it from your perspective, 'cause for us, we get, "Oh, yeah, that's an offensive word. I heard that's offensive." "I heard that's offensive."

    14. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      B- the majority of people are not talking to someone who's deeply ingrained in Native American issues and culture like you are, so you could explain to us that, you know ... I mean, it makes sense.

    16. SO

      Right.

    17. JR

      I mean, if we ... If it was, it was, uh, you know ... I mean, think about some derogatory term for someone f- uh, somewhere ... I mean, even if it was, like, s- kind of derogatory, like if they were called the Washington Krauts, and it was all based on Germans-

    18. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      ... like, a lot of German people would probably be really pissed off at that. Like, "Hey," you know, "that's kinda shitty."

    20. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      Like, "Why are you calling us that?" But it's the Chiefs, Kansas City Chiefs. Are there, like, what other Native American names? There's been a, a ton of them, right?

    22. SO

      Uh, yeah, the Braves. There's a lot of Indians-

    23. JR

      The Braves. Is the ... Are the Braves still around?

    24. SO

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Yes.

    26. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      And they still have that name? So all ... Has anybody give- given in and changed their name?

    28. SO

      Uh, um, I'm, I, I ... Yes, there has. And there's been really a movement with high school, colleges, um, and, uh, I don't know the status of any, um, uh, you know, as far as NFL or, or national teams. Um, Syracuse, um, Syracuse University had, um, a derogatory mascot that they changed, uh, some years back, um, because of the tribes there, um, that are now in the state of New York, um, fought for that. Uh-

    29. JR

      What was that mascot?

    30. SO

      I, I can't remember. But now, they're, they're, they're some kind of, like, orange ...

  5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

    Can I ask you…

    1. SO

      uh, were gonna repatriate it to appropriate tribes. And what ended up happening is, is that, you know, academia stepped up and said, "Uh, wait, this isn't Native American. We think he's something else." Um, and for years, uh, Native Americans fought to get that ancestor, the Ancient One, uh, back. And finally, um, after a court case, uh, that deemed the item wasn't, that the ancestor wasn't Native American, um, uh, DNA test was done, and it, it was indeed Native American. And, and the ancestor was finally repatriated. Um, uh, so-

    2. JR

      Can I ask you how that works? So-

    3. SO

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      ... listen. There's, you said there's 500 recognized tribes, many more that are unrecognized.

    5. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JR

      ... w- who, who would that go to?

    7. SO

      Right. So, um-

    8. JR

      Like say if you won and it's brought back and given to Native Americans, to who? And to where?

    9. SO

      Right. So, so, so, um, let's look at the best case scenario. And, and, and, uh, a lot of museums have maintained records, um, that may have human remains and associated funerary objects, and have enough information to know where that came from, what site it was, uh, located at, what county, what state. Um, and we know, um, from tribal histories as well as, as federal, uh, US, uh, documentation, that, that that area was likely affiliated with, with, you know, this tribe or that tribe, or maybe, uh, several tribes. And so consultation occurs under that law, um, about those ancestral remains and funerary objects, and it's determined, um, uh, where those items should go back. Um, in the worst case scenario where there's not any information, um, uh, oftentimes evidence of, of well, who were the collectors that were giving to that institution? Um, what has been the history of the institution and where has it obtained different collections? And through that, uh, you know, uh, it's deduced, um, who may be affiliated with, uh, with those, those items or the, the ancestors. So it can be a pretty long, drawn-out process, um, but what's interesting about it is, is, is museums and other institutions fought this law for a long time, um, and, uh, they said, "Well, you know, all of our collections will ... You know, we won't be able to fulfill our purpose as a, a museum or an academic institution to study these things." It's like, "Well, hell, you haven't studied it in 100 years." Um-

    10. JR

      They haven't?

    11. SO

      Yeah, no. Most, most of these, uh, when, when people work to consult with museums, most of these items are in boxes and often, um, poorly managed and maintained. Um-

    12. JR

      So they're just sitting somewhere in storage?

    13. SO

      Right, right.

    14. JR

      So the museum owns it and they're kind of hoarding it?

    15. SO

      Yeah, yeah.

    16. JR

      Interesting.

    17. SO

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      So this Kennewick Man, can you, um, pull up-

    19. SO

      Pull it, yeah.

    20. JR

      ... some information about that, Joe?

    21. SO

      I'm reading a story about it right now, um... Yeah, great. Because I'm-

    22. JR

      What is-

    23. SO

      ... forgetting my dates-

    24. JR

      Oh.

    25. SO

      ... when that happened.

    26. JR

      Yeah, I'm very curious about what the dates would be. Now, um, when we're talking about Native Americans, um, do you, uh, agree with the idea ... okay, let's see here. Kennewick Man finally is free, do, do, do, do.

    27. SO

      Oh, they did so much study on him, they-

    28. JR

      Human skeleton ever found in North America.

    29. SO

      Started in 19-

    30. JR

      He's a handsome fellow, let me see that picture.

  6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00

    When you hear an…

    1. SO

      uh, that, um, uh, a, a lot of, of people who, who deal in a- environmental protection, um, have utilized to help protect, uh, large areas. And it has to do with how different environments, how different flora and fauna work together, um, as a collective, versus oftentimes, in our, our, uh, Western way of thinking, we kind of, you know, we kill all the wolves, or we kill all the predators. We, we get rid of all these, um, plants and animals that used to all work together, uh, symbiotically in order to create a healthy environment. And, and, um, and there's really important traditional environmental knowledge, um, by, uh, many wisdom keepers across Native America that are trying to, um, re-, um, uh, uh, implement, um, the things that have gone wrong in their environments and trying to replace what has been, uh, screwed up.

    2. JR

      When you hear an origin story like, um, the one w- you were talking about, people coming out of the earth-

    3. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JR

      ... wha- how do you decipher that?

    5. SO

      Well, I've actually been to that origin site. Um, and it, it looks like a female. Um, it's a place-

    6. JR

      What do you mean?

    7. SO

      ... where we were birthed. Um-

    8. JR

      It looks like a female? What, what do you-

    9. SO

      It looks like a place where we were, uh, we were birthed out of Mother Earth. It, it, it's a, a beautiful, amazing, and almost shocking place. Uh-

    10. JR

      Where is this place?

    11. SO

      This is in Mississippi.

    12. JR

      So you think that that might be true?

    13. SO

      Uh, that's, that's our origin story, or that's one of our origin stories.

    14. JR

      Right, but you understand how scientifically that would be a real problem, right? People coming out of the ground like, like poppies?

    15. SO

      Maybe, maybe not.

    16. JR

      Maybe not?

    17. SO

      I think there are, um, there are stories and narratives that we're no longer connected with. And i- our lives today are so out of context with the natural world that we don't know what's possible anymore. Um, we've been so separated from that. Um-

    18. JR

      But we have a clear-

    19. SO

      ... even to imagine ...

    20. JR

      Yeah, but we have a clear line from ancient hominids to modern human beings that science has been able to piece together-

    21. SO

      Mm-hmm. That's one-

    22. JR

      ... through the theory of evolution.

    23. SO

      ... that's one story. Right.

    24. JR

      That's a story. Another story is we came out of the ground like roses.

    25. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JR

      You think that's possible though? That seems highly unlikely. Like if I gave you ... if e- you had money to bet, I give you a thousand bucks, and you could put it on this-

    27. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JR

      ... or that.

    29. SO

      Mm-hmm.

    30. JR

      You could put it on, well, there've probably ... people got here by all sorts of means the way people got everywhere by all sorts of means, or they came out of the ground like flowers.

  7. 1:30:00 – 1:30:30

    Section 7

    1. SO

      recreate, um, uh, what's important to us here. Uh, and, and I think, um, Indian nations have, have been here. Um, I think they're a symbol of, of amazing prosperity that the country could have and we've just never tapped into it. And I'm, I'm talking about, um, uh, just principles and values that, that we don't seem to, to hold anymore in this country. Um-

Episode duration: 2:36:03

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