Joe Rogan Experience #1467 - Jack Carr

Joe Rogan 0:01 And we're live. Hey, what's up? How are you?

Jack Carr 0:03 Oh, hey. Thanks for having me on.

Joe Rogan 0:04 My pleasure.

Jack Carr 0:05 This is awesome.

Joe Rogan 0:05 My pleasure. Good to see you again. And good to-

Jack Carr 0:07 Good to see you.

Joe Rogan 0:07 You know, when we first met, uh, I knew you were an author and I knew that Chris Pratt was involved in doing that thing with you, and that you guys were working towards making a se- which is happening now.

Jack Carr 0:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Which is very exciting.

Jack Carr 0:17 Crazy.

Joe Rogan 0:18 But, uh, I'd never read any of your work until now. So, getting ready for this, I actually listened to the audiobook, which is really well done. The guy who reads it, what is his name?

Jack Carr 0:27 Ray Porter.

Joe Rogan 0:27 He's fucking great.

Jack Carr 0:29 Yeah. He's awesome.

Joe Rogan 0:30 He's, he's a little disturbing when he does a girl's voice. But- (laughs)

Jack Carr 0:32 There's no getting around that.

Joe Rogan 0:33 (laughs)

Jack Carr 0:33 Like, if a guy's doing a girl voice, especially putting an accent to it-

Joe Rogan 0:36 Yeah.

Jack Carr 0:36 ... there's, like, no getting around the creepy part of that.

Joe Rogan 0:37 It's a little, it's a little weird. But you, you take ... But he's so good at, like, Russian accents and then, uh, South African accents.

Jack Carr 0:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:45 And it's a really good book, man.

Jack Carr 0:48 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 0:48 It's fucking riveting. Like, it's-

Jack Carr 0:50 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 0:50 ... it's hard to put down. It's, it's really good. And most of it I listened to either, uh, on workouts, walking, uh, hikes with the dog, or in the sauna. (laughs)

Jack Carr 1:00 Nice. Perfect place to listen to it.

Joe Rogan 1:02 So I burned through it in a few days.

Jack Carr 1:04 Nice.

Joe Rogan 1:04 It's, it's really good, man.

Jack Carr 1:06 You had ... You know like half the characters, uh, are the one, people that were inspired by actual people.

Joe Rogan 1:10 I know. That was what's crazy is, like, so many people, whether it was, uh, you know, uh, John Dudley or Barklow or, you know, Half-Faced Blades.

Jack Carr 1:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18 Like, uh, these ... Black Rifle Coffee.

Jack Carr 1:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:20 ICON 4x4.

Jack Carr 1:21 That's right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:22 There's like so many different things. Sitka.

Jack Carr 1:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25 So many different things that I-

Jack Carr 1:26 Be strange not-

Joe Rogan 1:26 Yeah.

Jack Carr 1:26 ... for me to, for me not to talk about gear, just because I was a gear guy before I went in the Navy. And then, of course, in the SEAL teams, you're like, you, that's your time to shine and to, like, go down these rabbit holes and try to make the gear better or anything that's gonna make you more effective and efficient on the battlefield. So you really get to go all in. And then, just after the military, same thing, I'm just a gear guy. So it would be strange just to say, "He pulled out a rifle." You know?

Joe Rogan 1:46 Yeah. (laughs)

Jack Carr 1:46 Or something like that. I couldn't do it. I w- I just ... It wouldn't sit right.

Joe Rogan 1:48 When you were in the SEAL team, did you think you were ever going to become an author? Is this something that you'd always had in the back of your head you would like to dabble in some day? Like ...

Jack Carr 1:58 Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't even a thing I was gonna dabble in. It was ... I was going to do it. Um, and since I was a little kid, my mom was a librarian, so I grew up surrounded by books and this love of reading from a very early age. And back then, like, so early '80s, there's hardly anything written about SEALs, uh, about what there is written is a- a lot of times from fiction. So-

Joe Rogan 2:15 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 2:15 ... protagonists in different stories by guys like Tom Clancy, David Morrell, Nelson DeMille, A.J. Quinnell, all these guys in the '80s who had protagonists with backgrounds I wanted to have in real life one day. And I enjoyed reading them so much, I knew that after the military, then I would write. So I just said-

Joe Rogan 2:29 Wow.

Jack Carr 2:29 ... that's gonna be the path.

Joe Rogan 2:30 So you had kind of mapped it out. Join the military first, join the SEALs.

Jack Carr 2:34 Yep.

Joe Rogan 2:35 And then, after you retire, then ... And, and how many years were you in for?

Jack Carr 2:40 20.

Joe Rogan 2:41 You were in for tw- and then during that time, you had always mapped out that you were going to be an author when you were done?

Jack Carr 2:46 Yep. Yep.

Joe Rogan 2:47 Wow.

Jack Carr 2:47 I didn't really think about it while I was in. I wasn't writing, I wasn't practicing, but I was reading. So first, I'm a fan.

Joe Rogan 2:51 Ah.

Jack Carr 2:51 I'm always a reader, uh, both fiction and non. So all those guys I read in the '80s, those were like my professors in the art of storytelling. And then I coupled that with the academic study of warfare, uh, terrorism, insurgencies, counterinsurgencies, and then the practical application from Afghanistan, from Iraq, and then it all kind of came together at the right time and place, as, as I was getting out. So for that last, like, year, year and a half, then I started writing, 'cause I wasn't taking guys down range anymore. My job was essentially to get out of the military. Uh, and 'cause it's ... You feel like you're the first person to do it, um, even though people do it every day. But you walk in, you need to get something signed or go to a meeting or get read out of a secret program or go to medical or dental. So your job becomes to get out of this gigantic bureaucracy. So during that time-

Joe Rogan 3:31 How long did that take?

Jack Carr 3:32 That takes like a year. I mean, you can probably do it in a week.

Joe Rogan 3:34 Really?

Jack Carr 3:34 Like Jocko didn't do any of it, from what I understand. He's just like, "No."

Joe Rogan 3:37 (laughs)

Jack Carr 3:37 And he just left, like (laughs) ... You know. But, uh, no.

Joe Rogan 3:41 That's so Jocko.

Jack Carr 3:41 You can tell him ... I know.

Joe Rogan 3:42 I'm done.

Jack Carr 3:42 He's just like, yep, exactly.

Joe Rogan 3:44 Bye.

Jack Carr 3:44 Yeah, he didn't do these transition classes you're supposed to do, and you sit there in these rooms and people drone on and on about transition and th- some options for you and you're ... Awful, horrible. But, uh, but I did it. I thought you had to. So you get something signed and off you go. But yeah, Jocko didn't do it.

Joe Rogan 3:56 You don't have to do it?

Jack Carr 3:57 I think you do, just Jocko didn't.

Joe Rogan 3:59 (laughs)

Jack Carr 3:59 Like, he ... Like, that's what he told me. He's like, "No, I didn't." I'm like, "Well, who's going to tell him to do it?" You know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:02 Right.

Jack Carr 4:03 Like-

Joe Rogan 4:03 Yeah.

Jack Carr 4:03 ... no one.

Joe Rogan 4:04 No one.

Jack Carr 4:04 No one's gonna say, "You have to do this." You're gonna get crushed.

Joe Rogan 4:05 Yeah, it's not, "Good luck."

Jack Carr 4:07 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:07 (laughs)

Jack Carr 4:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:09 So i- it ... So you were planning all along to write, and so w- during that time while you were being deployed and while you're, you know, you're being a SEAL, in the back of your head, that was always a part of the plan?

Jack Carr 4:23 Yep. That was, "When I'm done with this, then I'll do that." So I wasn't thinking about, like, how to set it up.

Joe Rogan 4:27 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 4:27 I didn't know anyone in publishing, didn't know anything, but I knew that one day, that's what I would do. And it wasn't even a question. It was-

Joe Rogan 4:33 But you clearly had equal enthusiasm for being a SEAL as well. I mean, you k-

Jack Carr 4:37 Yes. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:37 You have to-

Jack Carr 4:38 That's why they had to be separate.

Joe Rogan 4:39 Yeah.

Jack Carr 4:39 So I had to be 100% all in on being a SEAL, 'cause you have to.

Joe Rogan 4:43 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 4:43 That's what you owe the guys under your command, uh, when you're going down range. That's what you owe their families, the country, the mission. Uh, but when I got home from that last Iraq deployment and took a breath and looked around and saw, "Oh, my family needs me. I've been gone for quite some time." Even when you're training, 'cause when you're training, you're out for three weeks here, two weeks there, a month there, getting ready to deploy. So it's not just the six to seven-month deployments. It's all that time spent training up to go down range with your team. So I knew that my family needed me, it's time to get out. So it was very clear. It wasn't a hard decision for me.

Joe Rogan 5:11 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 5:12 Plus I'd, I'd gotten to the end of my time where I would tactically lead guys on the battlefield. Uh, so that's a troop commander. So that's where Jocko was when he did his last deployment as a troop commander, as an O4, which is a, a major in the other services, a lieutenant commander in the Navy. And after that, yeah, you're still a leader, but you're leading from behind essentially. You're in a tactical operations center. You're more of a manager type leader. You're not out there kicking doors with the guys, uh, which is what we all come in to do, or most of us come in to do anyway. So I knew that that part of my life was over and it was time to transition, take care of the family. So, it's time to start writing.

Joe Rogan 5:42 Did you take journalism classes or writing classes or ...

Jack Carr 5:47 Nope. It was all the reading, all that reading I did growing up. And, uh, my mom introduced me to a guy named Joseph Campbell back in 1987.

Joe Rogan 5:53 Oh, okay. Sure.

Jack Carr 5:54 So he did a, a series of interviews with Bill Moyers on PBS-

Joe Rogan 5:57 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 5:57 ... called, uh, The Power of Myth. And he wrote a book called Hero With a Thousand Faces. So back in 1988, so I'm, I don't know, 11 years old or whatever, 12 years old, um, I get introduced to him. And I read that book and I watched all those interviews and I read the book that came out called The Power of Myth based on those interviews. And I think I applied that paradigm, that model of the hero's journey, the monolith, to really every, every movie I watched, every series I watched, every book I read from then on. And that really helped as I made the transition, because I had this foundation. It wasn't just like I woke up one day and said, "You know what? Can you make money at writing? Oh, that sounds like a good thing to do. I'll, I'll go back and read and I'll go back and see, kind of figure out the history of this genre." No, I already had that figured out, because I did it my whole life and it was that foundation. So that was already there. And while I was in the military, I kept reading for fun. Read, read those, uh, fiction books still, and I discovered Stephen Hunter and Brad Thor and Vince Flynn and Daniel Silva and, uh, and now Mark Greaney today. So those are kind of the, the, the, kind of the bigger names in the genre. And, but then I was also studying, studying all that non-fiction stuff, trying to stay up on my game to make my, make the best decisions I possibly could under fire for the guys when it mattered. So, um, just always studying, always reading. When I was down range, I never really watched a movie or played video games. It was always, if I wasn't out operating or we weren't, uh, putting together a target package, I was reading.

Joe Rogan 7:14 That's interesting, because I, I would think...... that most people that would venture for, and become a professional novelist, they would have some sort of background in writing, like some sort of education, some classical education, English literature or something.

Jack Carr 7:30 Yeah. No, it was all reading. It was all-

Joe Rogan 7:31 Wow.

Jack Carr 7:32 ... knowing what I liked, knowing what I didn't like. And that's why the first novel is really all about revenge, because that theme resonated with me. Obviously, it's resonated with people from the beginning of time, from telling those stories around campfires, usually, uh, told in a way to pass on some sort of a lesson about something to the next generation so they don't have to learn the same lessons in blood, but they're told as a story and passed down that way. And I think that's, that's why there's so many Death Wish movies.

Joe Rogan 7:55 (laughs) Right, right, sure.

Jack Carr 7:55 You know, it's why there's just ... 'Cause you can't, if someone cuts you off in traffic, you can't go out and do something, or someone, you know, at work, there's some politics, you don't get the promotion or whatever, you get mad. You can't do anything about it. But you can in the pages of a novel. You can escape there or you can escape in the movie theater, and you can see somebody that goes out and gets this revenge and it makes you feel good 'cause you know you can't do it. 'Cause in real life, if you do it, you're gonna go to jail, you're gonna get the death penalty. It's not possible, but you can do it in the ... You can explore all that in the pages of a fictional thriller. So, uh, I think that's why it resonates with, uh, with people. And then, in this particular case, I got to take the emotions and feelings behind things I was involved in down range, and then just apply them to a fictional narrative. So I didn't have to talk to somebody and say, "Hey, how did, how did it feel to be a sniper in Ramadi in 2005, 2006?"

Joe Rogan 8:36 Right.

Jack Carr 8:36 And then filter that through whatever biases I had or whatever my ex-

Joe Rogan 8:40 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 8:40 ... past experience or whatever, and then put it into a fictional narrative. No, I just took my experience and then just morphed it and put it into the narrative. So it, uh, it ended up being very therapeutic.

Joe Rogan 8:51 So did you approach, um, an agent first? Like, how did you get started?

Jack Carr 8:56 Thank goodness I didn't know you're supposed to do that.

Joe Rogan 8:58 (laughs)

Jack Carr 8:59 (laughs) 'Cause I'd probably still be looking for one today. So I did very little research on that front, 'cause I think that a lot of people can study how to do something too much or too long. And it's gonna be different for everybody, but, you know, some people can study how to do something their whole life and never actually do it, uh, 'cause you only have a certain amount of bandwidth. And for me, I read ... So Steven Pressfield, who's become a great friend now, who was on this show, um, a while back, he wrote, uh-

Joe Rogan 9:22 I love that guy.

Jack Carr 9:22 He's so great. Yeah. He wrote Gates of Fire, Legend of Bagger Vance, The Afghan Campaign, and then has those series of books on creativity.

Joe Rogan 9:29 The War of Art is-

Jack Carr 9:29 The War of Art, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:30 ... just an absolute classic.

Jack Carr 9:30 You gave that out to people, right? For a while?

Joe Rogan 9:32 Yeah. I had a stack of them-

Jack Carr 9:33 You had a stack. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:33 ... that I used to keep at the studio.

Jack Carr 9:34 Yeah. So he's, uh, he's amazing. And actually, (laughs) listening to him on this show, uh, before I started writing gave me the idea of writing a one-word theme down to keep me on, on point. So I wrote "revenge" for that first novel on a yellow sticky. But he didn't really say this on your show. He was talking about somebody else who, a playwright, who would write a sentence to keep him on theme. But somehow, through my filters, I heard him say, uh, a, a one-word theme on a yellow sticky on my computer, and so I did the same thing. So it wasn't ... (laughs) It's not really what he said on the show, but I took it as what he said, and I wrote it down.

Joe Rogan 10:08 Hmm.

Jack Carr 10:08 And that really, for the first book, Revenge, second book, Redemption, and then fourth book, I morphed, or third book, I morphed it a little bit, Dark Side of Man. But, uh, so those are the themes that really kept me on track, but-

Joe Rogan 10:19 And you're on the fourth one right now? You're working on it?

Jack Carr 10:20 On the fourth one, yep. Yep.

Joe Rogan 10:21 How long does it take you to do one?

Jack Carr 10:22 Uh, the first one can take as long as you want because you have to have, for fiction, you have to have the finished product. So for nonfiction, you can sell, like, an idea, a chapter, an outline, something like that. Like, if you're coming from sports or politics, uh, you know, you can sell that idea 'cause they know they're gonna get some sales. For this, you have to have the whole manuscript done. So the first one took about just shy of two years. Um, and you get it as good as you can possibly get it. And then what you're supposed to do is go to an agent, but I didn't know that, thank goodness. Um, because I didn't do ... I, I did that research I talked about with Steven Pressfield's books on creativity, War of Art, Authentic Swing, uh, Turning Pro, Do the Work. I read those. Read Stephen King's On Writing, David Morrell's-

Joe Rogan 10:59 That's a great book too.

Jack Carr 11:00 Yeah, it's great.

Joe Rogan 11:00 Stephen King's books, fantastic.

Jack Carr 11:01 So good, 'cause it's ... It's an autobiography, really.

Joe Rogan 11:03 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Carr 11:03 It's not just about writing.

Joe Rogan 11:04 Yeah.

Jack Carr 11:04 It's about his, his entire life. Uh, David Morrell is the succ- successful novelist. And I think those were the, those were the main ones that I, that I read. And then I was like, "Okay, got it." And I put those within sight of me and my computer, but I didn't touch them again, and I ... But they were there, so I would look to them for inspiration as far as, oh, Steven Hunter says you're a prof- Or sorry, Steven Pressfield says you're a professional, uh, you're a writer, you sit down and write, uh, writer's block doesn't exist 'cause it doesn't exist for dentists or truckers or doctors.

Joe Rogan 11:31 Yeah.

Jack Carr 11:31 You don't get doctor's block, so you don't get writer's block. You're a professional, and you write. So just having them that close, uh, really helped with that transition. And I made the decision to, uh, once I was a SEAL, and now, I write. Uh, so I think that really helped. But I didn't know you needed, (laughs) you needed an agent. Um, and thank goodness I didn't because, uh, otherwise, like I said, I'd still be looking for one. 'Cause those are the gatekeepers, essentially.

Joe Rogan 11:53 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 11:53 And they have assistants that are even gatekeepers to them. So it's, it's tough, I think. But lucky for me, um, a friend of mine sat next to a guy named Brad Thor, who writes in this genre, uh, has a character called Scot Harvath, who's a former SEAL. And, uh, he's a, he's a great guy. My friend sat next to him at a, one of these events for, to raise money for a SEAL foundation type thing. And as I'm writing, I'm about four months in, and my buddy says, "Hey, you went, you know this guy named Brad Thor?" And I said, "Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I don't know him, but I've read all his stuff." And he said, "Do you wanna talk to him? I know you're writing a book." And I said, "Yeah, I'd love to talk to him. Uh, would he talk to me?" And he said, "Yeah. I'll set it up. I helped him out with a couple things on, in his books." So sure enough, he sets it up, and actually, I'm up there at a event in LA at the time. I was trying to find a quiet place to, to have this call with Brad Thor. So I go to the p- parking lot at the, by the Taranea Resort parking lot up there. Sun's beating down on my old (laughs) in my Land Cruiser. Everything's off, though. The engine's off 'cause it's so loud, and, and, uh, I got my pen and paper are there. I'm sweating. But, uh-

Joe Rogan 12:51 (laughs)

Jack Carr 12:51 ... sure enough, we had this great call, and, and, uh, it was like a job interview. I think he wanted to know, like, "Hey, why do you want to write?" And I told him the same stuff I tell you or tell everybody, that I grew up loving reading and knew I was gonna do this one day, and about my mom being a librarian, and, you know, knowing the history of this genre and all that, and just being excited about it. He could sense the passion, and he's like, "All right. So if you write a book-"... what I can do for you. Your friend told me some things you did in the SEAL teams, and as a thank you for that, uh, I'll let my publisher know it's coming. I can't guarantee they'll open the package, can't guarantee they'll read one word, definitely can't guarantee that they'll like it, but as a thank you, I can let them know it's coming. And I said, "That's all I need." And he said, "How long till you're done?" I said, "One year from today." And so, he's like-

Joe Rogan 13:30 Wow.

Jack Carr 13:30 ... he's, he's like, "All right, don't call me."

Joe Rogan 13:32 How did you know?

Jack Carr 13:32 "Don't send me chapters."

Joe Rogan 13:33 'Cause this is your first book. How did you know i- one year from today, you'd be done?

Jack Carr 13:36 'Cause I was... 'Cause other guys that have serious characters have one book a year. And so I figured, well-

Joe Rogan 13:41 (laughs)

Jack Carr 13:41 (laughs) ... you know, doing, doing this sort of thing, I was about four months into it, so I was like, "Eh, give or take a couple of months." So sure enough, I, uh, I called him back one year from the day, and he's like... But he said, "Hey, don't, don't call me. Don't send me chapters. I'm not gonna give you any advice." Uh, and he did give me some advice on that call, but he didn't want me bugging him throughout the year.

Joe Rogan 13:57 Right.

Jack Carr 13:58 Uh, which I totally understand now. Um, and called him back a year, um, uh, from then and said, "It's done." And to his credit, it was so awesome. He said, "Is it done, or- or is it the best you can possibly make it?" And I said, "Well, I could probably edit it a little bit, but it's finished." And he's like, "All right, call me back again-" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:14 (laughs)

Jack Carr 14:14 "... when it's the best you can possibly do." So I took another four months of reading it and editing it, sending it to a couple friends.

Joe Rogan 14:19 Wow.

Jack Carr 14:19 And, uh, then called him back four months later and said, "This is the best I can possibly get it." And he said, "All right, I'll let him know it's coming," so.

Joe Rogan 14:25 So how many hours a day do you think you were putting in?

Jack Carr 14:29 Gosh. So it's not like hours. I mean, I would love to get on a discipline-type schedule, like a Jocko-type schedule, some day, but, uh, I'm not quite there yet. Especially at this stage, where I'm still feel... I still feel like this is a startup, and I can't say no to a lot of things. Um, I need to take advantage of emerging opportunities, just like I would on the battlefield. Uh, looking at the enemy, they're learning from us, we're learning from them, uh, and it's really who adapts quicker. You're looking for those emerging opportunities, taking advantage of momentum, um, looking for gaps. So the same things that you would do for a startup or starting, like, a coffee shop somewhere, you have to do for writing. And I didn't really get that at the outset.

Joe Rogan 15:05 Like, how so?

Jack Carr 15:06 So I... You- you're not just writing and sending it to New York, which is what I thought up until about the time I published the first one. I thought you just went back and forth with an editor a little bit, and then you start the next book. Well, really, you have to do, uh, advertising, branding, co-branding, you know, your marketing stuff, your budgets, your social media. Like, anything you would have to do with any other business that you're starting up, you have to do as an author.

Joe Rogan 15:29 Hmm.

Jack Carr 15:29 So, uh, so I kind of treated it as a startup. And starting it, like, just like you're starting something in your garage, and you're hungry, and you're passionate, and, uh, you're seeing an opportunity here or there, and you're... And you just wanna build this readership and, uh, let people know that you have this character and see where it goes. So, uh, so it's been a, a sprint. So point being, uh, at some point, I think you get to a stage where you can say no, and you don't have to sprint off in all these different directions, uh, almost at the same time. Um, and you can say, "Okay, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna wake up, and I'm gonna write for four hours. And it doesn't matter if someone calls for an interview or if CNN wants you on or Fox News wants you on. Doesn't matter. I'm just gonna do my four hours, and then after that, then I'll check my texts, then I'll check my emails. And if something comes up, yeah, we can schedule it out maybe later in the week." But right now, it's just like, "Oh, really? Fox wants me on?" Bam, you know, I'm on.

Joe Rogan 16:16 Hmm.

Jack Carr 16:16 And then all of a sudden, now I'm not writing for those four hours in the morning.

Joe Rogan 16:18 Right, right, right.

Jack Carr 16:20 So usually, it's, uh... The first novel, and these... and this... (laughs) all the others, uh, were really done between 10:00 at night and about 4:00 in the morning, because that's the time it was quiet in our house with three kids, a dog, wife, and all the home interruptions. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:31 Yeah, that's how I do standup writing too. Same thing. When everyone's asleep, you do your best work, yeah.

Jack Carr 16:35 It's crazy 'cause there's no one interrupting, 'cause interruptions kill you.

Joe Rogan 16:37 But I have friends that feel like they can't work like that, and they only work good if they get up in the morning and then write immediately.

Jack Carr 16:43 Ah.

Joe Rogan 16:44 They write even before breakfast.

Jack Carr 16:45 So I was getting up and working out like that.

Joe Rogan 16:47 You know?

Jack Carr 16:47 Up until, up until the publication of the first book, and then things got a little crazy.

Joe Rogan 16:51 The publicity stuff and all, yeah.

Jack Carr 16:52 Publicity stuff and then writing late at night also, working on the next one, dialing that in, and then you're editing one while you're writing another. So you're kind of juggling-

Joe Rogan 17:00 Oh, wow.

Jack Carr 17:00 ... at the same time when you're on this-

Joe Rogan 17:01 Oh, Jesus.

Jack Carr 17:01 ... book-a-year, uh, type program. That's what you're, that's what you're doing. Um, and maybe I'll get past that at some point, and I'll have a s- end date, and then I'll start the next one. But right now, it's not, uh, not quite like that yet. So my mornings were taken up with getting up early and... Not anymore. (laughs) I need to get back after it, but in Park City where we live, there are some crazy in-shape people out there.

Joe Rogan 17:21 Yeah.

Jack Carr 17:21 And I happen to know a couple of them, so as soon as we moved out there after the Navy, they're like, "Hey, come, come meet. We gotta go work out." It's 5:30 in the morning, and I know Jocko's been up for two hours already.

Joe Rogan 17:30 (laughs)

Jack Carr 17:30 But for me, that's pretty good. So waking up at 5:00, getting down there and doing these crazy trail runs, CrossFit stuff, jumping in the pool, do- all sorts of crazy stuff that these guys put together, and it's like five or six CrossFit workouts meshed into one with trail running, with the endurance side. And, uh, yeah, hoping-

Joe Rogan 17:45 What, what group are you in with that's doing this? Is it a local gym or...

Jack Carr 17:48 Yeah, we go... We meet at the local gym, but, uh, Hobie Darling, who is the CEO of Skullcandy, he's like all into human performance at all levels. Um, the emotional, physical, mental, spiritual, like, being the best, like, human he can possibly be, like-

Joe Rogan 18:01 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 18:02 You'd love him. Uh, like, uh, he-

Joe Rogan 18:04 And those guys are all out there?

Jack Carr 18:05 They're all out there.

Joe Rogan 18:06 Hmm.

Jack Carr 18:06 Yep, yep. And, uh, Eric Snyder is another, another guy, big, uh... His, his Defender 110 is used in some of my videos. He's a big Defender guy. But, uh, those guys are animals. They are animals. And get up with them, work out, get home, get the kids to school. So I had a schedule like that for a little bit, but then it all became, hey, when you're working till 4:00 in the morning and getting up an hour and a half later-

Joe Rogan 18:27 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 18:27 ... that's a little much. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:29 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's always been a problem with comedy, you know, is-

Jack Carr 18:32 'Cause you have to go late. You're at the-

Joe Rogan 18:34 Yeah.

Jack Carr 18:34 You're testing stuff out, and then you're home, and maybe... You get home, and then you're making something-

Joe Rogan 18:36 I write at home. Yeah.

Jack Carr 18:38 But then after you, after you tested out something at the comedy club, you come home and make those notes.

Joe Rogan 18:42 Yeah. Well, luckily now, the way... Well, now we can't do shit.

Jack Carr 18:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:46 But, um, when this crisis, the COVID thing wasn't going on, what I would do is I would record my sets on my iPhone, and then on the way home, I would listen to the set. And then when I got home, either I would listen to it more or I would write. You know, sometimes I'd listen to it more and then take notes and then write and try to adjust or just write on completely different subjects.

Jack Carr 19:05 Okay.

Joe Rogan 19:06 But I just got to a schedule where the best writing I was doing was when no one was home.

Jack Carr 19:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:10 'Cause I'd be writing, and then I'd hear, "Daddy, I got a question," or "Daddy..."

Jack Carr 19:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:15 Or, or my wife would want to know something or, you know, someone else would need something or phones would ring. At 2:00 in the morning, no one's calling you.

Jack Carr 19:22 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 19:23 It's, it's free. You're-

Jack Carr 19:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:24 ... you're free. And then it's just quiet.

Jack Carr 19:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 19:27 And also, it's creepy.

Jack Carr 19:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:29 Something about the darkness is cre... Like, you have the... Your, your, your thoughts are weirder.

Jack Carr 19:33 Yeah, maybe.

Joe Rogan 19:34 But it was a real hard time to get up and do... Like, I would do, like, a 10:00 AM jujitsu class.

Jack Carr 19:38 Right, that's tough.

Joe Rogan 19:38 And when you're up at 4:00, and you crash, and then try to get up six hours later, or not even five hours later, then you get to the gym with a little bit of food in your stomach, it was too hard.

Jack Carr 19:47 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:47 You know?

Jack Carr 19:47 And do you just listen to yours, or do you video, uh-

Joe Rogan 19:50 I just listen.

Jack Carr 19:50 Just listen?

Joe Rogan 19:50 But video is better. I really nee-... Like, uh, Damon Wayans, who's a hilarious comedian, has a, uh, a collection of every set that he's ever done since the '90s.

Jack Carr 19:59 Really?

Joe Rogan 20:00 Yeah. He films everything. He brings a tripod and a fucking camera, and he sets it up in the back of the room and films every set he does. And then he edits it all himself on his computer. I'm like, "Damn."

Jack Carr 20:09 No way.

Joe Rogan 20:10 That's next level.

Jack Carr 20:11 That is next level. And do you, do you ever look at, um... Is there like a... Like, for people who own Amazon, you can leave reviews of books. Are there... Like, for comedy club, are there reviews of comics that go in there or anything like that?

Joe Rogan 20:21 Um, I don't know. I mean, maybe.

Jack Carr 20:23 That's good that you don't know then.

Joe Rogan 20:24 Yeah.

Jack Carr 20:25 Fuck.

Joe Rogan 20:25 I don't read any of that shit.

Jack Carr 20:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:26 You can't.

Jack Carr 20:27 No.

Joe Rogan 20:27 I can't. It's, it's all at scale, right? When you get to a certain number, like the, the number of people that are contacting you, like-

Jack Carr 20:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:33 ... I'm at a place where I just, I can't.

Jack Carr 20:35 No.

Joe Rogan 20:35 It's like nine million something Instagram followers or whatever the fuck it is. It's like, you can't-

Jack Carr 20:42 You just post and you're done.

Joe Rogan 20:43 ... you can't read that. You just get a...

Jack Carr 20:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:44 And it's not good for you. It's not good for you, positive or negative. Like, just, you should know what you're doing. Get out of there.

Jack Carr 20:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:51 (laughs)

Jack Carr 20:51 Yeah, so for me, I feel like I need to thank everybody at this point.

Joe Rogan 20:54 Hmm.

Jack Carr 20:54 'Cause I feel so fortunate-

Joe Rogan 20:56 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jack Carr 20:56 ... that, that books are resonating with people.

Joe Rogan 20:57 Yeah.

Jack Carr 20:58 And really, this whole thing's been a grassroots... Like, it made... This third book made the New York Times list, and it made it without, like, a national news appearance, uh, or with any of these other bigger things. It was all gra-... It was hunters, it was tactical shooting people, it was readers that-

Joe Rogan 21:10 Wow.

Jack Carr 21:10 ... took a risk on a new author and then told a friend. Uh, and then that person took a risk and told another friend.

Joe Rogan 21:16 That's awesome.

Jack Carr 21:17 So it's crazy. And then these companies like Black Rifle Coffee, like those guys, like, you know, veteran-owned businesses or, you know, like Dudley, like those guys that posted, uh, Andy Stumpf. Like, all those guys that hold... Held it up and said, "Oh, I love this."

Joe Rogan 21:26 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 21:26 But it's still grassroots.

Joe Rogan 21:27 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Carr 21:28 And it's just, like, instead of around the water cooler at work, it's modern-

Joe Rogan 21:32 Yeah.

Jack Carr 21:32 ... and it's, it's social. And I feel like I need to get on and say, "Thank you so much. I really appreciate it," 'cause I do. I feel so fortunate, and I really wanna thank everyone, but I think I'm about at that stage where I can't-

Joe Rogan 21:41 (laughs)

Jack Carr 21:41 ... where I can't do it anymore. I gotta do a blanket thank you.

Joe Rogan 21:43 Yeah. I don't... I hope people don't think that I'm not thankful. That's-

Jack Carr 21:47 Oh, no.

Joe Rogan 21:48 That's not the case. It's just for my own sanity.

Jack Carr 21:50 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:50 And I, I've seen people that do get really too into the comments, and they lose their fucking mind. It's not healthy.

Jack Carr 21:56 Oh, yeah, you can't do... I don't respond to anything negative.

Joe Rogan 21:58 Yeah.

Jack Carr 21:58 If anything's, like, a little weird, I do the block.

Joe Rogan 22:00 Yeah.

Jack Carr 22:00 I'm very, uh, very... And I, I treat it like if I owned a general store in small-town USA, and I'm behind the counter. I own the place. Somebody walks in, and they ask for directions. Well-

Joe Rogan 22:09 And some drunk comes in screaming the N-word. (laughs)

Jack Carr 22:11 Yeah, different. (laughs) So you dif-... You treat those people differently.

Joe Rogan 22:14 Yeah, exactly.

Jack Carr 22:14 So, so the guy who wants directions and doesn't want to buy anything, I mean, you're like...

Joe Rogan 22:18 Yeah.

Jack Carr 22:18 You, you treat the... "Hey, here's the... Here's how you get back to the interstate."

Joe Rogan 22:20 Sure.

Jack Carr 22:20 "Thanks so much." You know?

Joe Rogan 22:21 Right, right.

Jack Carr 22:21 And he has a good impression that he's left with.

Joe Rogan 22:23 Yeah.

Jack Carr 22:23 Or someone comes in and wants to buy a candy bar or a six-pack or whatever, you know, you just point them in the right direction.

Joe Rogan 22:26 Yeah.

Jack Carr 22:27 You make conversation. So I treat it kind of like that. Like, I treat people on social media the same way I would if I was interacting with them the way we are right here, but just across the table at my, my business, local general store.

Joe Rogan 22:37 Yeah.

Jack Carr 22:37 So I try to treat it like that, but I'm about at that point where there's too many people coming into the store and- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:43 (laughs)

Jack Carr 22:43 ... and I can't say hi to everybody.

Joe Rogan 22:45 Yeah.

Jack Carr 22:45 Uh, but, uh, but I still am so sincerely thankful for everyone that took a risk on me as, uh, as I was starting this out.

Joe Rogan 22:51 Yeah. Well, I can, I can relate. I understand where you're coming from. And I, I used to interact with people all the time online too, but then it got to the point where I was like, I see too many of my friends, like, getting mad about things-

Jack Carr 23:02 Oh, no.

Joe Rogan 23:03 ... or, or, or engaging back and forth and having these Twitter wars with people. And then I realized, like, that is the worst way to communicate ever.

Jack Carr 23:09 Yeah, you can't do that.

Joe Rogan 23:10 You know? It's just not a good... It's, it's also not... It's just not a good, effective way to express yourself with another human being if there's any sort of a dispute or disagreement about things. Like, the best way to express yourself is in person.

Jack Carr 23:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:22 And I know you can't do that with everybody. But it's just... It's not... You, you only have so much time in the day.

Jack Carr 23:29 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:29 And it's not val-... It's not, it's not a smart way to value your time.

Jack Carr 23:33 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:34 You know?

Jack Carr 23:34 No, it's that, it's that bandwidth. So-

Joe Rogan 23:35 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 23:36 ... uh, I never worried about how hard it was to get out. Like, I didn't worry about how hard it was to get into the SEAL teams or get to, get to BUD/s. All I knew that it, it was very hard. And that, for me, that was enough. So I was like-

Joe Rogan 23:45 But it can be done.

Jack Carr 23:46 People have done it before.

Joe Rogan 23:47 Yeah.

Jack Carr 23:47 Um, and so even growing up, even... So mid-'80s, I'm still doing, like, what today people would call CrossFit. Uh, so I'd get home from school, I'd run the hill by the house, I'd go under the basketball hoop and then pull myself through, you know, in these kind of, you know, pull-up things, you know? We had a jungle gym in the backyard, so I'd do some regular pull-ups there, change my grip, uh, put a j-... put a rope up in the backyard. So I was doing that. I had my bow out, so I'd shoot for the high, high heart rate and everything. So I was doing all those things. And then I was reading, like, Zen and the Art of Archery, um, and I was reading, well, the nonfiction stuff on warfare. And I was reading these... those authors I talked about earlier that I, that... whose genre I'm writing in today. Um, so I was doing all of that stuff. But I wasn't focused on how hard it was.

Joe Rogan 24:24 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 24:24 Or, "Oh, maybe I'm not gonna make it. Am I good enough?" I'm like, "Well, I'm gonna get myself as good as I possibly can by doing all the things that I think I need to do." And now you can type in, like, Navy SEAL workout program, and you... There's so many. You know?

Joe Rogan 24:36 Yeah.

Jack Carr 24:36 You wouldn't believe 'em. It's hard to pick which one. Back then there was nothing, you know? So I'm like, "What do I see? I see them running in the sand. I've seen a couple pictures like that. I see these guys in Vietnam with these guns." And I'm like, "Okay, I've seen a couple movies." And, "Okay, what are you gonna do? Okay, you're gonna climb this tree, you're gonna do this rope stuff, do these hill sprints." Uh, so I just did that. Uh, and-

Joe Rogan 24:53 Did you have, like, a program that you wrote out? Or did you just-

Jack Carr 24:57 Nope.

Joe Rogan 24:57 ... wing it?

Jack Carr 24:57 Nope, just as many kind of-

Joe Rogan 24:58 Work out till you're tired?

Jack Carr 24:59 Yeah, which is very similar to actually when I got to the SEAL teams, where it was pre-CrossFit days and all that. So you ran as far as you could as fast as you could in sand, and then you came back and you lifted as heavy weights as you possibly could. Like that... Like Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, 1980 Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding.

Joe Rogan 25:13 (laughs)

Jack Carr 25:13 Like, that was the workout up until probably early 2000s.

Joe Rogan 25:16 So early 2000s, what changed?

Jack Carr 25:18 Uh, CrossFit came on the scene.

Joe Rogan 25:19 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 25:19 Uh, that was huge. Uh, we adapted or adopted it fairly quickly, 'cause the SEAL teams-

Joe Rogan 25:24 CrossFit seems great until things go wrong.

Jack Carr 25:26 What?

Joe Rogan 25:26 Seems great until your joints start going, or your back starts going.

Jack Carr 25:29 Yeah, and by CrossFit I just kind of mean functional fitness in general.

Joe Rogan 25:32 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jack Carr 25:32 I don't really mean the actual, actual program. But, uh, but first, yeah, those programs came out and people would get on and say, "Oh, look. Look at this thing."

Joe Rogan 25:40 (laughs)

Jack Carr 25:40 "This is new. Give it a shot with me." And it took a, it took a little bit of time, but some guys jumped right on. And, uh, and... But really, what it showed us... And then...... right about that time, also war kicks off and, and all that. And we realize, okay, you're at 10,000 feet in these mountains, you have a ruck on, you're a radio guy, you have a automatic weapon guy that has a ton of ammo, um, then you're going, you're hitting this compound and you're putting these ladders up and then you're going through these windows and sometimes there are these spaces you have to get into to clear where people are hiding or they're hiding weapons. Um, so, uh, encyclopedia bodybuilding, running as far as you could as fast as you could in sand, and that being all you did, um, there's probably a better way. So we were-

Joe Rogan 26:15 Yeah.

Jack Carr 26:16 ... we were kind of forced into it, uh, essentially. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:18 Do they do any work where they're monitoring heart rate and checking recovery and, you know, and trying to keep you at a certain heart rate while you're working?

Jack Carr 26:27 No. They might now because I'm a little dated. So I got out summer of 2016 and I know they were trying to modernize a lot of things as I was leaving, for those last couple years. But, uh, so they, they... it's possible they do now. And one of the things that, that they did to, uh, that incorporated a little technology was, uh, in hell week, like when I went through with, uh, with Andy, um, they'd just pull you out of the surf and then they'd walk down the line and shine a flashlight in your eyes and they'd say, "Okay, this guy is on the verge of hyperthermia. He's about to die. Pull him out." Um, but then they have someone that looks totally fine, and then that person would just collapse as soon as, like, the doctor walked by. So what they had people do was start to take these little RFID chips and swallow them, and so they'd walk down that line and they'd hit you with, like, the zapper from Walmart and they'd get your core body temperature. So it lasted-

Joe Rogan 27:08 What?

Jack Carr 27:08 ... for about, like, two days until you passed it. But for those first couple days, that's how they did it because-

Joe Rogan 27:13 So you had an-

Jack Carr 27:14 ... it's a much better way.

Joe Rogan 27:14 ... RFID chip in your-

Jack Carr 27:15 You swallow.

Joe Rogan 27:15 ... stomach and then you shit it out after two days?

Jack Carr 27:18 Yep. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:19 And so that's how they could tell your temperature?

Jack Carr 27:21 Yep. I don't know when they started doing that. They did... certainly didn't do it in '97 when, when I went through.

Joe Rogan 27:25 That's what they're gonna do with this fucking COVID virus shit.

Jack Carr 27:27 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 27:28 They're gonna make you swallow an RFID chip.

Jack Carr 27:29 Or put it in your... put it under your skin or something.

Joe Rogan 27:31 I'm really worried about this tracking thing that they're trying to implement, that they're talking about how South Korea's doing that. They're giving up a little bit of personal liberty and freedom. And I'm like, "You can kiss my ass."

Jack Carr 27:43 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:43 They're giving up a little bit of privacy.

Jack Carr 27:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:45 They're like, no.

Jack Carr 27:46 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:46 No. I'd rather wash my hands and stay home.

Jack Carr 27:49 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:49 Fuck off. Oh, yeah.

Jack Carr 27:50 And they're not gonna give that back.

Joe Rogan 27:51 Exactly.

Jack Carr 27:51 Like, when the government takes something-

Joe Rogan 27:52 Thank you.

Jack Carr 27:52 ... I don't know how many times they've actually given freedoms back.

Joe Rogan 27:55 None. Zero.

Jack Carr 27:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:56 There's no way. Once they have that kind of surveillance where they can monitor you, they're tracking you, okay? So they can track everywhere you go and measure you versus all the other people that they know are infected. Did you come in contact with them? This guy's got a recent test, you don't. Like, you need to get a recent test. Now you're registered. Okay, now we're tracking you. And everywhere you go, you're gonna be tracked. You're telling me when they come up with a vaccine, they're gonna just drop that tracking and go-

Jack Carr 28:20 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:20 ... "Hey, go back to being completely free."

Jack Carr 28:22 No.

Joe Rogan 28:22 "Go back." No chance.

Jack Carr 28:23 Nope. Once they take those freedoms... Like, you never... laws are never... I shouldn't say never. Rarely taken off the books.

Joe Rogan 28:29 Right.

Jack Carr 28:29 Every week you have people on talking about bills that they're sponsoring. Well, are they getting rid of another one-

Joe Rogan 28:33 Right.

Jack Carr 28:33 ... to add that one? Or are you just adding... Like, there's a book called Three Felonies A Day and it talks about how a guy wakes up and... normal guy gets up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, has dinner, puts the kids to bed. And unbeknownst to him, during that day, he has committed three felonies because there are so many laws on the books, you can't even keep track. The American Bar Association can't even tell you how many laws are on the books. State, local, federal. Uh, international ones that play in. All sorts of different ordinances, laws, and you're breaking at least m- three of them a day to commit a felony. It's a fascinating book and that... they're not gonna give those back. They're not gonna give those freedoms back.

Joe Rogan 29:08 I read a really disturbing thing today, and I'm not even sure if it's true, so we, we should find out right now. Clickity, clickity, click. Did the CDC stop tracking flu deaths for this year? Because this is what I read, and it might have been some wacko right-wing website that I was on.

Jack Carr 29:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:23 So you never know. But, um, I was like, "This can't be true," because the real concern is that the CDC tracks flu and they find out that flu is lower or the same as COVID, and why are we making a big deal out of COVID? And then, you know, people riot in the streets.

Jack Carr 29:38 That's why people can't... y- it's hard to tell who to trust.

Joe Rogan 29:41 It's hard.

Jack Carr 29:41 You see-

Joe Rogan 29:42 Yeah.

Jack Carr 29:42 ... two politicians and you see, uh... you don't trust either side and you see everyone trying to make a power grab and use this as a way to make power or hurt an opponent or whatever it is.

Joe Rogan 29:52 Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah.

Jack Carr 29:53 And even with, uh... yes. The CDC, you don't know there. World Health Organization, you obviously can't tell there. You can't trust information coming out of other countries. So people at home are just like, "What do I, what do I do?" Safest thing to do is just to stay where I am. Uh-

Joe Rogan 30:04 Yeah.

Jack Carr 30:04 ... but you don't know who to trust. That's the whole thing.

Joe Rogan 30:06 It's very hard. It's very hard to figure out who to trust, and doctors are giving disparate... What do we got?

Narrator 30:10 On, on their website I'm seeing information, uh, updated as of last week, April 18th.

Joe Rogan 30:15 For flu deaths?

Narrator 30:17 For, like, it's on the CDC weekly flu surveillance inf- I mean, it's all of the flu information. I could-

Joe Rogan 30:22 So how many people have died this year from the flu?

Narrator 30:24 Um... uh, I have to dig through here to find that information. Hold on a second.

Joe Rogan 30:29 Because, um, the COVID deaths are... what is it at now? 55,000 I think? Something like that?

Narrator 30:34 For this country, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:36 I think it's more, right? Maybe 60,000 now?

Narrator 30:38 Closing in on that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:40 Which is not a small number. It's a lot of people, but then you find out that, that, that's a bad year for the flu. That's normal. But obviously, this year we've locked everybody down, worldwide even, and, you know, there's, there's... there has to be a slower spread because of this quarantining and because of the social distancing. So you're... I would, uh, imagine you're getting far lower numbers than they would have gotten if everybody had just gone out into the streets.

Jack Carr 31:05 Oh, yeah. Yeah. No doubt about that. But-

Joe Rogan 31:07 No doubt.

Jack Carr 31:07 ... for, for flu, uh... and this is my understanding because in that fourth novel that I'm writing right now is deep into the study of infectious diseases and how-

Joe Rogan 31:15 Perfect for you.

Jack Carr 31:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:15 Perfect timing, right?

Jack Carr 31:16 It was crazy. Uh, and then how you weaponize those infectious diseases. Uh, what the Japanese did prior to World War II in that space, how they used them in World War II against the Chinese, what happened to that data afterward, after the war. Uh, the Soviet program from the end of World War II up to the collapse, what happened to that information. And then our programs today from the end of World War II up to... and continuing through today. So I was, I was keyed into all that ahead of time, and so it made me a little kind of hypersensitive-

Joe Rogan 31:43 Mm.

Jack Carr 31:43 ... to this. I'd been talking to doctors, people that had worked in that space, doing my research. Uh, but from... obviously, I'm not a doctor. Uh, but from what I've studied, the difference here is that the incubation period. So for us... so in the military, we'll go overseas and now we're fighting insurgents. And what do they look like? Well, they look like the people that aren't insurgents. Uh, what does that car look like that's pulling up to this, uh, this checkpoint? It looks like the one that didn't have a VBID in it. Or is that one looking a little low on the suspension? So you're-They're not in a uniform. They're not driving a military-type vehicle. So same with this. It's, it's like an insurgent that's adapted.

Joe Rogan 32:17 Hmm.

Jack Carr 32:17 And it's adapted to those other diseases and how we fought them, and it's adapted by the incubation period, by that nine days. So a flu, you get the flu, you're down. You know you shouldn't go into work. If you show up at work, someone's like, "Bro, go home. You look like, you look horrible. Get outta here. You're gonna infect everybody." You don't know that-

Joe Rogan 32:34 Right.

Jack Carr 32:34 ... with COVID-19. So you go out there for this nine days, whatever it is, and you're infecting people during that timeframe. So it's like that insurgent that hides amongst, amongst the-

Joe Rogan 32:42 Yeah.

Jack Carr 32:42 ... populace. It's the same type of thing. Like, they've adapted. SARS was different. Flu is different. All these other ones have been different. And that's the adaptation of this one, is that you go out and you infect other people without knowing it. So that's the difference between it and the flu. So it, it's a hard thing to wrap your head around when you just look at numbers, um, but it, but there is a difference in that, uh, flu, just stay at home if you're sick.

Joe Rogan 33:04 You know, it's, it's really, in a lot of ways, it's a perfect way to spread a virus, because there's a, there's a video game that my wife plays, she used to play. She doesn't play anymore now that this has gone down. But it was a, a virus video game-

Jack Carr 33:17 Really?

Joe Rogan 33:18 ... where you, you send a virus throughout the world. And the, the key is, if you make your virus too strong, it's a video game you play on your iPad or your phone, if you make the virus too strong, it kills people too quickly and then it doesn't spread. So the way you get a virus everywhere is you have one that sits in your system for a little bit and it's just weak in the beginning, and slowly spreads its way across the world. And that's essentially what this is in a lot of ways. But this is, this one's so weird, man. I mean, the, Newsweek actually had a story yesterday saying that they think it came from a lab. So now that, that theory of whether or not it came from a laboratory, I think I tweeted it. I think I tweeted it. So you can find it on, on my Twitter page. But I was reading it yesterday, I'm like, "Okay, Newsweek, not really a sensationalistic publication."

Jack Carr 34:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:06 When they're publishing something like that, you gotta go, "Hmm, probably something to this." And there's a lot of speculation. I mean, it's not so hard to imagine. I mean, you're, you're talking about something that literally was a few blocks from the epicenter in Wuhan where they had that level four lab.

Jack Carr 34:20 Right. So the deal is, with, uh, like the video game your wife was playing, um, and that, uh, y- the goal of that game, it sounds like, was to infect the world.

Joe Rogan 34:27 To kill the world.

Jack Carr 34:28 But if that's not your goal-

Joe Rogan 34:29 Fucked up game. (laughs)

Jack Carr 34:30 (laughs) If you have, if you have a goal and you want your country to survive, then you don't want it to become-

Joe Rogan 34:35 Exactly.

Jack Carr 34:35 ... a global pandemic.

Joe Rogan 34:35 Yeah.

Jack Carr 34:35 You want it to hit the city, the country, whatever geographic area you wanna hit with a weaponized, uh, infectious disease, you want it to burn out in that city. So instead of going over and dropping bombs on it like, uh, like World War II, uh, like firebombing Dresden or, or whatever else, or Tokyo, uh, and just destroying those cities, well, you know what? After the war, you can go in with an infectious disease and, you know, it's burnt out and there's no damage.

Joe Rogan 34:59 Yeah.

Jack Carr 34:59 Um, but you don't want it to spread throughout the whole world and come back to your own country. Uh, so when I li- first looked at this and I heard about Wuhan and I heard that there was a, I don't wanna say, not a weapons lab maybe, but maybe it's a weapons lab, um, but at least a lab doing research in infectious diseases a couple miles from these wet markets where they're saying that this thing, uh, broke out. Um, there are cases, uh, in the former Soviet Union, of them doing these, this research into infectious diseases and weaponizing it and then having it get out because the protocols weren't followed or whatever else, and kills a few people and they hush hush it 'cause it's the, uh, 1960-something or 1970-something. Uh, so there is precedent and it wouldn't be beyond the, beyond the pale to think that, oh, someone was doing some sort of research.

Joe Rogan 35:41 Yeah.

Jack Carr 35:41 And it doesn't even have to be weaponization. It can just be they're just, uh, studying this infectious disease, not even weaponizing it, and someone contracts it somehow in that lab and then brings it outside. Uh, unbeknownst to them.

Joe Rogan 35:52 Yeah, that's the controversial theory. So here's the thing, "The controversial experiments in Wuhan lab suspected of starting the coronavirus pandemic," and says, "The case against a Wuhan lab." And so, uh, it says, "Why the Wuhan lab remains a suspect in the coronavirus investigation." I mean, it's really likely that we never really will know.

Jack Carr 36:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:11 But they most certainly were working on viruses similar to this one right there.

Narrator 36:16 At the end of this article, it says there's another one called, uh, rat, RATG13, which is very, very similar to the SARS-CoV-2 one that we're experiencing now.

Joe Rogan 36:27 Oh, terrific. (laughs)

Narrator 36:27 They share 96% of the same genetic material.

Jack Carr 36:31 (sighs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:33 Wow. "It's thought to be the most similar to SARS-CoV-2, uh, of any known virus. The two share 96% of their genetic material. That 4% gap would still be a formidable gap for animal passage research," says Ralph Baric, virologist, University of North Carolina, probably in bed with the Russians, who collaborated with (laughs) ... Like, when you found out that, uh, Harvard guy got arrested, that, uh, uh, f- 'cause he was, uh, taking money from Russia, or excuse me, taking money from China 'cause he was, uh, doing something-

Jack Carr 37:00 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 37:00 ... with them. Yeah, I mean, it's real spooky. What's really spooky is the World Health Organization is essentially in bed with R- with China.

Jack Carr 37:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:08 And they're not giving us 100% clear, detailed information. Everything gets filtered down through the Chinese propaganda system.

Jack Carr 37:15 Oh, sure, sure.

Joe Rogan 37:15 Very dangerous.

Jack Carr 37:16 And they also, uh, were exceedingly, uh, we don't, we don't know the numbers, right? And we can't trust China. But it seems like they were a little more prepared for this than we were, uh, with as far as testing kits goes-

Joe Rogan 37:27 Yes, yes.

Jack Carr 37:27 ... and all that. So if you're doing re- if there's a lab where you're doing research similar to this close by, where there's a history, uh, of other countries, maybe even China too, of doing research into infectious diseases, not following protocols that we would here in the United States, they're not all as, as safe as they are, shocker, here in the United States where we're doing the same type of research. Then it gets out and then they just happen to have, uh, a lot of these kits ready to go for testing. Um, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 37:52 Yeah. Well, in 2018, they were actually cited for violating safety protocols at that same lab in 2018. So there were, there were, there was concerns about that area long before. But what's really fucked up is, the World Health Organization posted in January that according to China, there is no evidence of person-to-person transmission of this disease. This is...... uh, days after they knew for sure it was being transmitted from person-to-person. So China has been deceptive about this from the very beginning, and they think that if they were honest about it and if they, if they stopped everybody from leaving, it could have covered ... They could have covered this in the point where it would've been 95% less-

Jack Carr 38:34 I saw that.

Joe Rogan 38:34 Yeah. 95% less people would have gotten infected.

Jack Carr 38:36 Yeah, just lock down Wuhan.

Joe Rogan 38:38 Yeah.

Jack Carr 38:38 Do, deal with it there as much as you can anyway. Let the rest of the world know ... I mean, looking back, that seems like... But you're dealing with China.

Joe Rogan 38:43 So-

Jack Carr 38:43 Same thing, you know, you're dealing with Russia, you're dealing with some of these other-

Joe Rogan 38:45 Yeah.

Jack Carr 38:45 ... countries like that.

Joe Rogan 38:46 But Ch- China seems the worst. It seems like the worst.

Jack Carr 38:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:49 (laughs)

Jack Carr 38:49 It does seem that way.

Joe Rogan 38:50 It's-

Jack Carr 38:50 It's the perfect storm.

Joe Rogan 38:51 It seems like. But the way they handle their own citizens, when their citizens are testing positive. There's this horrible video of this family being dragged out by these people in hazmat suits, and they're trying to resist. These people are dragging them away 'cause they tested positive.

Jack Carr 39:02 Oh, yeah. Once again, that government taking a little more control-

Joe Rogan 39:05 Yes.

Jack Carr 39:05 ... a little more control, a little more control.

Joe Rogan 39:06 Exactly.

Jack Carr 39:07 And we're just giving it up. And we give up so much. And even before this, obviously, we gave up so much information about ourselves voluntarily, uh, that, that we would ... Let's say in the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, we never would have given up. And now we're like, "Oh, click accept-"

Joe Rogan 39:20 Yeah.

Jack Carr 39:20 ... "and, uh, bam."

Joe Rogan 39:21 Right.

Jack Carr 39:21 "There you go. Awesome, I can post a picture."

Joe Rogan 39:23 (laughs)

Jack Carr 39:23 Or whatever it is. "You know, this is fun. I can communicate with my friends."

Joe Rogan 39:26 We're very accustomed to s- uh, clicking on those user agreements.

Jack Carr 39:29 I know.

Joe Rogan 39:29 Yeah.

Jack Carr 39:29 And no one can figure them out. It's horrible.

Joe Rogan 39:31 Those, those, th- those concern me. And obviously, we've given up a lot of our information in terms of data, where we go, the map information, that kinda shit. But this tracking thing really freaks me the fuck out. It really does. Because they're gonna find another reason why they should be able to track you.

Jack Carr 39:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:45 Once, once they do it because of the virus and then ... And it'll just be next year, it'll be the flu. It'll ... They'll find reasons to keep fucking tracking you.

Jack Carr 39:53 To keep you safe.

Joe Rogan 39:54 And you're like, "Uh, if you got ... You're not doing anything wrong, what are you worried about?" Listen.

Jack Carr 39:59 As soon as someone says that-

Joe Rogan 40:00 Yeah.

Jack Carr 40:00 ... that's ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:01 You're a fool.

Jack Carr 40:02 Yeah. Antennas gotta go up and you gotta-

Joe Rogan 40:03 You don't understand.

Jack Carr 40:04 ... realize what's going on.

Joe Rogan 40:04 You don't understand what this could mean. Look, the fucking mayor of Los Angeles was paying people to rat people out for not following social dist- not, uh, following social, social distancing rules.

Jack Carr 40:14 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:14 There was an article in the fucking new- newspaper where he's saying that normally snitches get stitches.

Jack Carr 40:18 I saw that video.

Joe Rogan 40:18 But here, snitches get rewards.

Jack Carr 40:20 I saw that video. It's horrible.

Joe Rogan 40:22 Do you not know-

Jack Carr 40:23 Oh, my gosh.

Joe Rogan 40:23 ... about history?

Jack Carr 40:23 That guy's never living that down. I know.

Joe Rogan 40:24 It's crazy.

Jack Carr 40:25 It's just like, like ... So for this third novel, I went to Russia to do some research. And I'd always wanted to go there. I knew that for this third one, 'cause the first one, uh-

Joe Rogan 40:33 Did you go before or after-

Jack Carr 40:34 August, so before.

Joe Rogan 40:35 ... you had written about Russia in your books?

Jack Carr 40:37 Uh, I was in the process of writing it. I was getting kinda closer to the end. Uh, but I finished up edits, gosh, I wanna say Jan- this January.

Joe Rogan 40:43 So I've only read Savage Son.

Jack Carr 40:45 Okay.

Joe Rogan 40:45 Is that ... Oh, I didn't even read it. I listened to it. People get mad if you say you've read an audiobook.

Jack Carr 40:49 (laughs) I saw that the other day-

Joe Rogan 40:50 They get mad.

Jack Carr 40:50 ... when you posted that. I know. I-

Joe Rogan 40:51 They do get mad.

Jack Carr 40:51 So I was like, "Dang." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:53 Yeah. I guess 'cause it's harder to read? I don't know. Um, but i- so Savage Son is the only one I've listened to. Uh, did you talk about Russia in the other books?

Jack Carr 41:01 In the second one, I did. It plays in, in the geopolitic side. So the first one is really very ... I wanted it to be very basic, very visceral, very primal right out of the gate 'cause I knew that in New York, Simon & Schuster, all these big publishing houses, they see thousands of these things a year. So I ... Somebody needs to make this stand out. And a lot of that was the, the personal experience from Iraq and Afghanistan morphed into the novel to make it feel real, personal and, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 41:22 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 41:22 ... visceral. Uh, so I wanted to come out swinging with that novel of revenge without constraint. So I'd, I'd done that research essentially just as part of my life, uh, by going to Iraq, going to Afghanistan, all those sorts of things. Um, for the second one, I knew it had to be different. So I put in a lot more of the geopolitics of what's going on with Russia, power struggles, uh, all this other ... To make it a little different 'cause I didn't want people saying, "Oh, he's just a one-trick pony. He just picked up this revenge thing. Now he drops it in Africa, drops it in, in China, drops it in Europe."

Joe Rogan 41:48 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 41:48 Uh, so it had to be different. It had to continue that hero's journey and this story of violent redemption. But I went to Mozambique as part of it to do that research 'cause I knew ... And this is before I even had a publishing deal. Uh, I knew that ... Hey, John Grisham, he wrote A Time to Kill first, and he couldn't give that book away. And then he wrote The Firm, and that's the one that takes off with the movie with Tom Cruise. Then later, then they go back and they publish A Time to Kill. Matthew McConaughey makes the movie. Uh, but if he'd stopped at A Time to Kill, he'd probably still be practicing law, uh, somewhere in Memphis.

Joe Rogan 42:17 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 42:17 So I knew I was always gonna write too. So off I went to Mozambique to do that research, get that boots-on-the-ground experience like I had in Iraq, had in Afghanistan already for the first novel, uh, had by living in S- San Diego, knowing LA, knowing New York, uh, and really being able to incorporate what I'd done already. But I hadn't been to Mozambique, had to go there. So I put boots on the ground. And everybody over there wanted to tell me the story of their country, wanted to talk about the politics, wanted to talk about Chinese influence in the region, uh, with mining operations, both legal and illegal, and the meat poaching that goes along to feed all the people in those mines-

Joe Rogan 42:49 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 42:49 How that's affecting the environment. So they just ... I couldn't stop them from talking. It was great. And then for this third one, I thought it would be the same in Russia, so I wanted to go to Kamchatka Peninsula and, uh, do a hunt, do a little fishing over there at the same time, but it's all part of the research. And, uh, you can ... For one month a year, you can get to Kamchatka Peninsula from Alaska. So you don't have to go from here to Germany or London and, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 43:11 What month?

Jack Carr 43:11 For all of August. So you get in. One flight a day. Uh, or no, sorry, one flight a week.

Joe Rogan 43:15 Only in August?

Jack Carr 43:16 Only in August. Otherwise, you have to go all the way around the world.

Joe Rogan 43:19 (laughs)

Jack Carr 43:19 Uh, so-

Joe Rogan 43:20 Nice.

Jack Carr 43:20 ... much better to fly to Anchorage than hop on a couple hour flight, and the next thing you know, you're in Russia. It's awesome. Um, but I thought it was gonna be the same. I thought, you know, I'll land, I'll get to this remote backcountry place where we have these guides and all that, and I'll be able to really ... And it's on the military installation because the people guiding us, uh, used to have some connection to the government, so he has this hunting concession out there in the, in the backcountry. And I thought they'd all wanna talk to me. And then I realized very quickly that for most of Russian history, if someone is asking you pointed questions, the kind that you'd ask if you're writing a political thriller, you are not long for this world. It was off to firing squad, gulag, off to Siberia, whatever. Uh, so they were very hesitant-

Joe Rogan 43:55 (laughs)

Jack Carr 43:55 ... to talk to me. And I left all my computers behind 'cause I didn't ... As soon as I walked through customs, I knew they was gonna get everything sucked out of my phone and computer.

Joe Rogan 44:02 Right.

Jack Carr 44:02 Uh, and I didn't know who, who sent things to me in email or text over the last 20 plus years that, uh-

Joe Rogan 44:07 Yeah.

Jack Carr 44:07 Who knows?

Joe Rogan 44:07 Right.

Jack Carr 44:07 So I just left all that behind, brought a pen and a paper. Uh, but I was asking these questions and I'd ... You know, I thought, "Oh, they could ... You know, here's, here's my book. You know, they're gonna know I'm an author. I'm just asking this." But no, they were very standoffish and very suspicious of why I was asking them these kind of questions. Uh, but it all worked out. I got some great stuff and got to weave that into the, to the third one.

Joe Rogan 44:25 What kind of hunting did you do in Russia?

Jack Carr 44:27 So, brown bear.

Joe Rogan 44:28 Oh, wow.

Jack Carr 44:29 Yeah. It was crazy. It was crazy.

Joe Rogan 44:30 What does brown bear taste like?

Jack Carr 44:32 Uh, (laughs) I will tell you that I don't know. Uh, 'cause usually, I follow ... Not usu- ... Well, yeah, usually, I follow the customs of the, the local people 'cause I don't wanna, like, show up and be kind of the ugly American and show, "Oh, I'm better than you. You don't-"

Joe Rogan 44:45 Right.

Jack Carr 44:45 Uh, "You know, you don't eat this, but I will. This is what we ... " So I kind of adopt what the locals do and, uh-

Joe Rogan 44:50 They don't eat the bear?

Jack Carr 44:51 No, they don't.

Joe Rogan 44:52 No? Interesting.

Jack Carr 44:53 Uh-

Joe Rogan 44:53 I wonder why.

Jack Carr 44:54 Yeah. I don't know. It's just one of those things that they don't ...

Joe Rogan 44:56 It's-

Jack Carr 44:57 Well, a lot of times, people ... I mean, the bear is amaze- ... I had the best bear this year, a black bear. Um, uh, uh, uh, Brian Kall gave me some.

Joe Rogan 45:04 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Jack Carr 45:05 And, oh, incredible. It was the-

Joe Rogan 45:06 Black bear is delicious.

Jack Carr 45:07 It was so good.

Joe Rogan 45:08 Yeah, I tell that to people and they're like, "Shut the fuck up." Like, my, my daughter got asked, "What's your favorite food?" She goes, "Bear."

Jack Carr 45:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:14 And her friends were like, "What?"

Jack Carr 45:15 Amazing.

Joe Rogan 45:16 Yeah. Like, it's probably not really her favorite food.

Jack Carr 45:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:19 I think she was probably trying to shock her friends.

Jack Carr 45:21 I don't know. That bl- that black bear that, uh, that Brian gave me is, uh ... I mean, it was canned, so it was just sitting there-

Joe Rogan 45:28 Canned?

Jack Carr 45:28 ... for a while. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:28 Really?

Jack Carr 45:28 So it's this canned thing. Um-

Joe Rogan 45:30 So how did he make it?

Jack Carr 45:31 Uh, you know-

Joe Rogan 45:32 So-

Jack Carr 45:32 So you boil it and it's in the ... People can-

Joe Rogan 45:35 Yeah.

Jack Carr 45:35 However you can something-

Joe Rogan 45:35 Wayne Endicott from, uh, the Bowrock up in Springfield, Oregon gave me some canned deer meat and it was really good.

Jack Carr 45:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:41 But it's really bottled. It's like bottled deer.

Jack Carr 45:43 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 45:44 But-

Jack Carr 45:44 I've never had bottled (laughs) I've never had bottled deer before. But I'll tell you, bottled black bear ... And if this ... Maybe it was eating, you know, blueberries or whatever. But it was ... And it sat on our counter for-... six months, 'cause my wife was like, "Mm."

Joe Rogan 45:56 "Get the fuck outta here with this." (laughs)

Jack Carr 45:57 Yeah, exactly. (laughs) So, so then we had all these guys came over, like guys from Total Archery Challenge, and yeah, we came over to the house and we did a wild game dinner.

Joe Rogan 46:04 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 46:04 Uh, Trevor Thompson came over-

Joe Rogan 46:06 Oh.

Jack Carr 46:06 ... and, uh, so, uh, we, we, we opened it up and it was everyone's favorite.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Really?

Jack Carr 46:11 I wish we had more of it.

Joe Rogan 46:12 What were the ingredients behind, besides just bear?

Jack Carr 46:14 He must've put a couple some spices in there of some sort, but I don't know.

Joe Rogan 46:17 Hmm.

Jack Carr 46:17 I mean, it didn't look like it. You'd just open it up and it looked weird, but then you'd open it up and then all of a sudden-

Joe Rogan 46:20 Was it a metal can?

Jack Carr 46:22 ... it was like filet mignon. No, like glass-

Joe Rogan 46:22 Or-

Jack Carr 46:23 ... like you would, like a, uh-

Joe Rogan 46:23 Like a, like a bottle.

Jack Carr 46:24 Yep.

Joe Rogan 46:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Carr 46:24 Like you would with a, uh, a jam or something like that.

Joe Rogan 46:27 Yeah, same as the deer that I had.

Jack Carr 46:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:28 Same, like one of those vacuum-sealed bottles, yeah.

Jack Carr 46:30 It was awesome. I wanna go down there and get some more from him if he has any more. If he's listening, I'm gonna come down and get some of that 'cause that was legit.

Joe Rogan 46:35 Yeah.

Jack Carr 46:35 Even my wife loved it. She's like, "Wow, this..." And even, as soon as you opened it up and it hit the air, it changed k- like it changed. It didn't look like it's murky thing that was in the jar. Like, it looked beautiful.

Joe Rogan 46:44 Hmm.

Jack Carr 46:44 It was amazing. We loved it. It was great. Everybody's favorite. It was awesome.

Joe Rogan 46:47 Yeah. That's a weird thing. Like, bear actually tastes good. People are so wrapped up in bears because of teddy bears.

Jack Carr 46:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:53 They, they have this distorted perception of what a bear is, and people that have no problem eating cows have i- will get mad at you if you eat a bear. Do you know how much nicer a cow is than a fucking bear?

Jack Carr 47:04 (laughs) I know cows don't eat their young, I don't think.

Joe Rogan 47:06 They, they... Well-

Jack Carr 47:07 Eat their children.

Joe Rogan 47:07 Not only do they eat their children, they'll, they'll, they kill other people's children and then the mo... Well, other bears' children, rather, and when I was in, um, uh, Alberta, uh, my friend John and Jen-

Jack Carr 47:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:20 ... the people who run the camp out there, the Rivetts-

Jack Carr 47:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:22 ... their son saw a male bear kill a cub, and then the female bear chased the male bear away and then finished eating her cub.

Jack Carr 47:32 That's amazing.

Joe Rogan 47:33 'Cause he was eating her cub, so she e- she ate her own cub-

Jack Carr 47:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:36 ... right after she was defending it.

Jack Carr 47:38 It's incredible.

Joe Rogan 47:38 It becomes meat once they're dead.

Jack Carr 47:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:41 They're all cannibals.

Jack Carr 47:42 It's crazy. A lot of that stuff is, is interesting how people have, uh, will associate bears with... Well, and humans. I mean, they do look, when you skin them, they do look a little like humans.

Joe Rogan 47:50 Sort of. If that, someone looks like a fucking bear when they're dead, like y- you've done something-

Jack Carr 47:54 A big boy.

Joe Rogan 47:54 ... awful with your body.

Jack Carr 47:55 Yeah, it's a big boy.

Joe Rogan 47:56 Yeah.

Jack Carr 47:56 You're not taking care of yourself. But it's-

Joe Rogan 47:58 Steve Rinella calls it best. He says that they're charismatic megafauna.

Jack Carr 48:01 Yep. That's it.

Joe Rogan 48:02 And that there's-

Jack Carr 48:03 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:03 ... there's some animals-

Jack Carr 48:04 That's hearsay.

Joe Rogan 48:04 ... that we have in our head that you're not supposed to eat. And we, we also, I think, we connect bears to, uh, what you would call trophy hunting, meaning like someone who hunts lions. Someone, someone who hunts things you don't eat. Although, mountain lion apparently is very good.

Jack Carr 48:19 I've heard this.

Joe Rogan 48:19 It's delicious.

Jack Carr 48:20 I have heard this, and I've-

Joe Rogan 48:21 I have friends it's like their favorite food.

Jack Carr 48:22 Yeah. Yeah. Donnie Vincent was saying, I've heard him here, he was talking about it was the best thing he's ever, ever eaten, I guess. And-

Joe Rogan 48:26 Yeah.

Jack Carr 48:27 ... and I, I saw, I did my first one this year and it was amazing. It was incredible.

Joe Rogan 48:30 You had mountain lion?

Jack Carr 48:31 I didn't eat it 'cause the guide didn't really... Was like, it was like a no-go.

Joe Rogan 48:35 Same thing?

Jack Carr 48:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:36 The guide wouldn't let you eat it?

Jack Carr 48:38 It was very clear to me that that was not something that was done, uh, there. You know, I should've-

Joe Rogan 48:41 Where was this?

Jack Carr 48:42 I probably should've pushed it. In Utah. So I probably should've pushed it. I could've pushed that one.

Joe Rogan 48:45 Yeah, you should've pushed it.

Jack Carr 48:45 I should've. I feel bad about it now.

Joe Rogan 48:47 It's hard to get a tag for them too, so it's not like it's easy to get some-

Jack Carr 48:50 It was crazy.

Joe Rogan 48:50 ... mountain lion steaks.

Jack Carr 48:51 It was wild. Yeah, that was amazing. Um, but the back, back to that, that... The bear experience was incredible, especially with someone who doesn't speak English. Like, you're over there with this guy who's, uh, that's really, he was part of... Well, in the military, and then worked for the government, and then is now this sensible-

Joe Rogan 49:06 Uh, for the people just listening, you're doing air quotes here.

Jack Carr 49:08 Air quotes, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:08 (laughs)

Jack Carr 49:08 So I, anyway, really interesting. Um, but yeah, so got my bear and then, but the craziest part was my friend, who got his, and, uh, he wounded it first by accident, of course. And that happens, like, we know. Um, and it goes off into this thick, thick brush.

Joe Rogan 49:25 Oh, dude.

Jack Carr 49:25 In the States, because I went and did another hunt in Alaska this year, like they won't let you go in after a wounded bear, um, into the thick stuff. Like, m- maybe some will, but my, from what I've, I've gleaned, they're gonna go in and do it. Kinda like going in after a wounded leopard or something in, in Africa. Like, the guides, that's where the guides are gonna go earn it, um, go and do that. So this thing's wounded and they hand me this rusty, side-by-side shotgun that's at the bottom of this boat that we're in, this little, tiny, little boat that we're in on this river. And, uh, the guy hands it to me and, uh, then hands me two shells. I'm looking at this rusty thing-

Joe Rogan 50:00 What?

Jack Carr 50:00 ... and I have these two shells in my hand and I'm like, "Okay." And I'm like, "No," 'cause he had a, he had s- a couple more. I'm like, "No, give me some more." And I trained up for Africa with a double rifle. I went to FTW Ranch in Texas to get really good with a double rifle 'cause I wanted to do a cape buffalo hunt the same way someone would've done it 100 years ago. So no optic, side by... You know, a, a double rifle, so it's a rifle, but it looks like a shotgun.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Hmm.

Jack Carr 50:19 So big, big rounds. And-

Joe Rogan 50:20 So there's two rounds?

Jack Carr 50:21 Yep.

Joe Rogan 50:22 And then?

Jack Carr 50:22 Side by side.

Joe Rogan 50:23 Interesting.

Jack Carr 50:23 And, and so I have two shots, but you have two other ones ready to go and so you practice at FTW, you practice and they have charging animals that are coming in after you and you're do... Just like you would in the military, changing mags, but this time, you're just getting two more in there and getting it back up. So-

Joe Rogan 50:36 Wow.

Jack Carr 50:36 ... I trained hard for that. Uh, and so when he handed me this old rusty shotgun, um, and I think someone said, "Oh, that was made in an AK factory." And I was like, "Ah, okay. I feel better about this," 'cause I've, uh, I've seen a lot of AKs and I've seen a lot of them rusty and working. So I'm like, "Okay. I'm gonna have to trust my, I'm about to trust my life to this thing." And, uh, it's rusty and it's from a bottom of a boat and this guy doesn't even speak English, so bam, here we go. I'm off and it feels-

Joe Rogan 50:59 How many shells did he get you?

Jack Carr 51:00 Four.

Joe Rogan 51:01 (laughs)

Jack Carr 51:01 So... (laughs) And I look at them just to make sure it's not like buckshot or something so I can see the-

Joe Rogan 51:04 Sort of slugs?

Jack Carr 51:05 Yeah. So I see that it's a slug. It feels like the double rifle I trained up so hard with to go to Africa, um, which was an amazing experience. Couldn't have written that one better. But, uh, and off we go into the brush. So it's like, they wouldn't let you do this in, in the States. Like, you're going into this thing and they have a wounded, huge bear, brown bear, and off you go. And it's just me, the guide, and my friend. And, uh, this thing, uh, it's all quiet and I haven't felt this dialed in since Ramadi 06. Like, I was on. And then, bam, this thing rears up like, I don't know, 15 yards away. Just like a human.

Joe Rogan 51:36 Oh, Jesus.

Jack Carr 51:37 Like, "Raah." And I just spun and boom, shot him like I would a person. Just right in the chest.

Joe Rogan 51:40 How, how big was he?

Jack Carr 51:42 Ended up being over 10 feet.

Joe Rogan 51:43 Whoosh.

Jack Carr 51:43 Yeah. I'll show you a picture after this.

Joe Rogan 51:45 10-foot-tall bear.

Jack Carr 51:47 And-

Joe Rogan 51:47 Jesus Christ.

Jack Carr 51:47 ... even more than that was the size of the head. And I forget how... Well, I think I measured it, but I forget. It was huge. Yeah, it was huge. I'll show you a picture after this. Um, so yeah, I shot it like I would a human. Then it goes, it goes running off like, I don't know, 20 yards or something like that into some more thick stuff. And then we hear a death bellow. But before we heard the death bellow, the guide, in broken English, was like, "I'm gonna s- go around the other side and I'm gonna scare him towards you."... and I'm like, "Oh, okay." So I do, I go around (laughs) to the other side and I get down, I'm like, "Well, if it charges out, it's probably gonna be on a- all legs and it's gonna come charging like this." So I knelt down, and then just got ready to, to put one end if it's coming charging at me.

Joe Rogan 52:22 Hmm.

Jack Carr 52:22 And I was trying to figure out, okay, face, mouth, right here. You know, it was my-

Joe Rogan 52:26 Yeah.

Jack Carr 52:26 ... first bear hunt. Um, so anyway, it, it, we heard the death bellow after that, and then we went and got it.

Joe Rogan 52:30 God damn.

Jack Carr 52:30 But it was, it was huge. It was crazy.

Joe Rogan 52:32 That is such a different kind of hunting, when you're hunting something that absolutely could tear you apart.

Jack Carr 52:37 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:38 Like, you're made out of tissue paper.

Jack Carr 52:39 Oh, yeah. Yeah, no doubt. I'll show you the pa- yeah, it's crazy. But what it, what surprised me was how mu- it wasn't like Wild West over there, where you said, "Oh, can I, can we get a, get another bear? Can we" it was very ... Like, no, you had your tag, just like you would in the States.

Joe Rogan 52:52 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 52:52 It was all science-based, "We need to take this many out, um, for the population." Like, it was just like the States, which surprised me.

Joe Rogan 52:58 Well, they must have a big business in people coming over there to hunt.

Jack Carr 53:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:00 And they, they don't wanna r- d- deplete the resources-

Jack Carr 53:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:03 ... by abandoning-

Jack Carr 53:03 Yeah, that's exactly it.

Joe Rogan 53:04 Yeah.

Jack Carr 53:05 Yeah, they're smart. But for some reason, that surprised me. I thought, "Oh, it's Russia." 'Cause I'd been to Russia before, I'd been to Moscow, I'd been to Ukraine, uh, I'd been to the catacombs for, uh, earlier in life, and I wove those into, into the second novel. But, uh, I, I just figured it would be kind of Wild West-y, kind of like how I remembered it over in, uh, in Ukraine and-

Joe Rogan 53:20 Hmm.

Jack Carr 53:20 ... in Moscow back in the early '90s. And, uh, it, but it wasn't. It was all m- very much, "You have your tag, now this is yours, and, and, uh, we're not gonna deviate from that." You can't do anything else.

Joe Rogan 53:30 It's kinda interesting they wouldn't even entertain eating it.

Jack Carr 53:33 Yeah. You know, and, and there's a language barrier there too.

Joe Rogan 53:36 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 53:36 So, it's hard, especially when you're w- dealing with people that are tough. I mean, they're living in these huts built into the ground essentially, uh, for insulation.

Joe Rogan 53:44 In Siberia?

Jack Carr 53:44 Uh, just south of Siberia. So Kamchatka is just south of Siberia. Um, but essentially the same, same type of thing. And so they're built these, into these small hills for insulation. So I mean, they're out there.

Joe Rogan 53:56 Wow.

Jack Carr 53:56 And it's, it's, it's a rough existence. Uh, so when they say "We're not doing something," and they say it in a way, with this Russian accent, and it's really, it's not really like, "Oh, let's talk about it."

Joe Rogan 54:05 Right.

Jack Carr 54:05 (laughs) It's not, no.

Joe Rogan 54:06 But you would think that those people-

Jack Carr 54:07 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 54:07 ... would want meat more than anybody. You know? I mean, you would think meat would be very valuable, and a 10-foot bear, you could feed so many goddamn people.

Jack Carr 54:14 Maybe that's why they told us we couldn't, 'cause they were keeping it. It's possible too.

Joe Rogan 54:17 Oh.

Jack Carr 54:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:18 That's possible. Yeah.

Jack Carr 54:19 That's very possible. I would definitely not, uh-

Joe Rogan 54:22 Yeah, that's-

Jack Carr 54:22 ... discount that-

Joe Rogan 54:23 Yeah.

Jack Carr 54:23 ... in the least.

Joe Rogan 54:24 That's possible, yeah.

Jack Carr 54:25 But they have a ton of fish out there, moose, huge moose out there, so they've been-

Joe Rogan 54:28 Lot of northern pike, right?

Jack Carr 54:29 They have, well, they have, uh, they might. But we were at, after, uh, Dolly Varden, and, uh, rainbow trout, brown trout.

Joe Rogan 54:36 Oh, wow.

Jack Carr 54:36 So, some, some big ones out there. So it was, it was pretty crazy. It was a good trip, and I got to weave th- all that stuff in. So I got to weave in some of the people that I met over there. The snowmobiles they have over there have one skid in the front instead of the two.

Joe Rogan 54:47 Huh.

Jack Carr 54:47 Yeah, so they, they're going through this taiga, this tundra.

Joe Rogan 54:49 Oh, so it's tight.

Jack Carr 54:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:51 Interesting.

Jack Carr 54:51 So they, so they're only watching one getting hit-

Joe Rogan 54:53 Hmm.

Jack Carr 54:53 ... by a root or something like that, instead of the two. Um, so I got a lot of good stuff by going over there. And I wouldn't have known what to ask. I wanted to see the vehicles that they used over there, I was very happy to see some Land Cruisers, so that was pretty cool.

Joe Rogan 55:04 (laughs)

Jack Carr 55:04 Uh, but they had a whole bunch of other stuff too.

Joe Rogan 55:05 (clears throat)

Jack Carr 55:05 Some Russian, some crazy Russian stuff, and I got to incorporate, uh, incorporate those vehicles into the novel as well. So, you really never know what you're gonna get until you get on the ground, talk to people, build those relationships, and then, uh, things ended up, end up waking, making their way into the stories.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Have you ever seen that Werner Herzog documentary, Happy People?

Jack Carr 55:21 No.

Joe Rogan 55:21 Life in the Taiga?

Jack Carr 55:23 No.

Joe Rogan 55:23 Yeah.

Jack Carr 55:23 I need to see that.

Joe Rogan 55:24 It's, you need to see it, it's great.

Jack Carr 55:25 I wish I'd seen it before I wrote the third book.

Joe Rogan 55:26 Yeah. It's crazy, it's really good. It's, and it's this amazing documentary about these people that live in the taiga in Russia, and, uh, it shows them from being in the summertime, uh, all the way through into being in the wintertime, and it just, y- they're just hunters and gatherers, and they're so happy. It's really weird. It's really weird, like, there's no mental illness, there's no suicide. And everyone's just struggling. I mean, they're just, ev- they're st- they're making their own skis, they're making their own homes, they're making their o- I mean, they have these cabins set up for trapping, and they use snowmobiles and then they have dogs, they have a very tight relationship with their dogs. And they get fish, and they get meat, and then that is, that is what they eat. And they bring bread with them, and the bread's all frozen, obviously. So they have these loaves of bread they bring, they store their cabins, they have to bear-proof everything. But it's just, their life is so compatible with being a human being.

Jack Carr 56:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:23 It's like there's something about our human reward systems that have evolved over thousands and thousands of years that being a hunter-gatherer just completely locks in with all the things that keep you content and happy. There's the documentary right now.

Jack Carr 56:36 Oh, nice. Oh, awesome.

Joe Rogan 56:37 Yeah, and, and very interesting-

Jack Carr 56:38 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 56:38 ... their relationships with their dogs. Yeah.

Jack Carr 56:40 Oh, yeah, the dogs over there were amazing.

Joe Rogan 56:41 It's everything. Their dogs are everything. They have a, a huge, very, very tight relationship with their dogs.

Jack Carr 56:47 That's incredible. Yeah, the dogs that we had in the camp, they protected the camp from the bears.

Joe Rogan 56:51 Mm-hmm.

Jack Carr 56:51 Like, that was the bear protection, was these dogs that were specifically trained up to chase bears off.

Joe Rogan 56:55 Yeah.

Jack Carr 56:55 Um, I think they're called a Lakita. I'll have to go back and look, but they, absolutely incredible dogs, they were amazing.

Joe Rogan 57:01 It's a really amazing documentary, absolutely one of my favorite.

Jack Carr 57:04 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 57:04 Yeah. There's another really interesting documentary.

Jack Carr 57:07 Watch this tonight.

Joe Rogan 57:07 Well, not a documentary, it's a Vice Guide to Travel, um, where, uh, it's, uh, think it's called Heim- I think his name's Heimo, uh, Heimo's Arctic Adventure, and it's a guy who got a job in Alaska in like, the 1970s. And he owns the r- he has like, a lease to have a, a cabin out there in this very remote part of the Arctic.

Jack Carr 57:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:30 And, and once he's dead, like, this is it. Like, no one else can have this sort of-

Jack Carr 57:34 It goes back to the government?

Joe Rogan 57:35 Yeah, I don't think anybody else is gonna be allowed. But it's, it's another amazing documentary, and he's a guy who's a really ... He's an American guy who's, uh, really articulate, very interesting guy, very intelligent guy, who loves living like this.

Jack Carr 57:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:48 He raised his family out there, and his, his wife is, uh, American Eskimo, and it's just a fucking amazing way of life I don't wanna live.

Jack Carr 57:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:57 I don't wanna live like that. I mean, I like cities, I like cars-

Jack Carr 58:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:00 ... I like all that stuff. But there's something incredibly compelling about being completely reliant on nature and your own, you know, ingenuity and hard work. And he was talking about it in this documentary where the V- the Vice people ... This is back when Vice was, you know, just starting out too, this Vice Guide to Travel, so one of their earlier ser- series that they were doing on, uh, on YouTube. And it's, it's really cool when you're seeing this guy who's this reporter, who has no experience like this at all, inter- interacting with this guy and him explaining his life and why he lives like this-

Jack Carr 58:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:35 ... and why it's so important to him, and-

Jack Carr 58:38 ... that, I