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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1469 - Adam Perry Lang

Adam Perry Lang is a chef, restaurateur and cookbook author. He is the owner of APL restaurant in Hollywood, CA.

Joe RoganhostAdam Perry Langguest
May 5, 20201h 57mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:45

    Restaurant shutdown reality check & APL’s immediate pivot

    1. JR

      ... one. (smashes table) What's happening, brother? How are you?

    2. AL

      Good to be here.

    3. JR

      Good to have you.

    4. AL

      What's happening?

    5. JR

      Um, I have enjoyed your restaurant many times. This is my favorite steak restaurant in all of Los Angeles.

    6. AL

      Thank you.

    7. JR

      And, uh, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you in here because, uh, this is a, uh, really crazy time for restaurants. And, um, I, I mean, that's basically... That, that's the gist of it.

    8. AL

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      This is a crazy time. I mean-

    10. AL

      It's, it's bananas. It's absolutely crazy. I'm trying to just get a handle on it. It's just, uh, overwhelming. So, for me, it's just head down and cook, try to help people, you know, that are in need, and, uh, and then we'll figure it out later. That's-

    11. JR

      Well, I know you've been doing a lot of cooking for first responders and for hospitals. And, like, what, what have you been doing with your time now that this is...

  2. 0:45 – 3:27

    Keeping staff afloat, triage decisions, and early charity partnerships

    1. AL

      Well, it really first started where, um, basically, everything just... Everybody was just staring at each other and saying, "What, what is going on? What's happening?" And I had... I didn't lay off any of my employees and it's all happening. Everybody else is closing up shop and, you know, I'm just overwhelmed as a business owner. What am I gonna do? And I actually had my GM come up to me and, you know... Because I'm trying to figure it out. Everybody's asked, "What's gonna happen?" My GM came up to me and he says, "Hey, listen, you know, we're with you. Um, we know you didn't create the coronavirus. You know, you do what you have to do, and we know your heart's in the right place." And I was just like... I just, like, kind of just let out a breath and I'm like, "Okay, well, I appreciate you saying that." And then I was just head down, get down to business with it. And, uh, um, we had to cut back, um, 90% of the staff. And, uh, we were just like... Just cook. Um, didn't know who were gonna... Who was gonna buy it or anything. It was just crazy.

    2. JR

      So we should just tell everybody. It's the, the steakhouse is called APL.

    3. AL

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      And it's in, uh, LA in wha- what is that? Like, the theater district? What is that called? That, that area?

    5. AL

      Yeah, it's in the heart of Hollywood, Hollywood and Vine.

    6. JR

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. AL

      And it's right, uh, next to the Pantages Theater.

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. AL

      Which we... And what's ironic was, it was literally when they closed down all the restaurants, it was the, gonna be the night of, uh, Hamilton premiering, which was a big deal for us as a business and, uh, you know, all of a sudden it's like it stops and, um-

    10. JR

      Yeah, we, um... I went to your place right after we saw something. It was, uh... Oh, it was Frozen. (laughs)

    11. AL

      Yeah. Okay. (laughs)

    12. JR

      I have daughters.

    13. AL

      Right.

    14. JR

      Yeah, we went to see Frozen and that was the last time I was at your place. Um, it's, it's gotta be a very strange thing 'cause this has never happened before. And one of the things that we've talked about, uh, a lot on this podcast is what's so devastating about this is there's a lot of people that have lost, lost businesses in the past because markets changed and because maybe they didn't do what they could've done or work as hard as they could've worked. But for so many small businesses and restaurants and bars, they've been doing the best work they've ever been able to do, they- they're putting in the hours, they're showing up, they're putting out these, uh, amazing meals, and then because of nothing that's their fault (snaps fingers) it just gets shut off.

    15. AL

      It just gets shut off. It's crazy, you know-

    16. JR

      And without any real understanding of how long it's gonna take or when, when you're gonna... I mean, we just had a conversation. I was saying, "We should just talk about this on air," 'cause we were just talking in the green room.

    17. AL

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      Like, there's n- no, no clear indication of when you'll be able to go back to work, uh, and, and serve food to the general public and what that's gonna look like.

  3. 3:27 – 5:45

    Frontline meal logistics: feeding hospitals and designing comfort menus

    1. AL

      I know. It's, it's, it's the unknown. Um, but how I'm investing my time, how a lot of other chef restaurateurs are investing their time is trying to serve takeout to the public, but also doing, um, charitable and things to provide for, for first line, you know, front line, you know, defense.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. AL

      And one of the things is, is, you know, Jimmy Kimmel and I teamed up to, um... For every meal that we prepare, we donate a meal to St. Joseph's Center. So that was the first thing. But as for our, our attitude was, is like we wanna help people and let them know that they're cared about. And then the other thing is to really just keep, um, even just the five people working s- because we didn't even know if people were gonna order. So, um, we jumped into it like that and then these services such as, uh, uh, Frontline LA, which comes in and, um, brings... It's, it's like the glue between us and the hospitals. And we, we prepare meals for 150 meals at a time for the hospital workers.

    4. JR

      And do you guys package them up and then have them delivered to the hospitals? Like-

    5. AL

      Yeah, exactly.

    6. JR

      You know?

    7. AL

      I mean, so we'll just sit there. They'll say, "Hey, we have a need for this particular hospital, you know, um, Hollywood Presbyterian." "Okay, great, 150 people." We package up the meals and-

    8. JR

      How do you do that? Do they order off a menu or do you just prepare-

    9. AL

      No, we-

    10. JR

      ... stuff that you think that they'll enjoy?

    11. AL

      We prepare, um, healthy things, things that they would appreciate and then also sometimes I just serve comfort items. So, sometimes I'll do meatloaf, gravy, and mashed potatoes 'cause, you know, if they're just all healthy, sometimes they just need a little bit more of, like, you know, warmth and, like-

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AL

      ... just kinda, like, pulling in a bit.

    14. JR

      That's a weird word, comfort food, you know?

    15. AL

      It is, but that's what's happening now.

    16. JR

      It makes... But it works. Like, the comfort... Like, when you say macaroni and cheese, comfort food.

    17. AL

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      It is.

    19. AL

      That's what people are gravitating towards.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. AL

      That's where my menu is right now. It's all comfort food and barbecue.

    22. JR

      Really?

    23. AL

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      So do you, do you... Uh, is that because that's what people are asking for?

    25. AL

      Well, that's my-

    26. JR

      Probably cook steaks, right?

    27. AL

      That's my read on the market. You know, I had experienced a similar thing where things shut down and, uh, people needed help and that was around, you know, during 9/11. And, you know, our attitude was, is like how can we help people? Those, you know, those in need. And, and really comfort food really kind of just blossomed out of that. So-

  4. 5:45 – 7:11

    Takeout economics: curbside vs delivery apps, and the 10–15% survival problem

    1. JR

      So, when you're doing... Right, so you're doing takeout as well.

    2. AL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      And how does that work? Do they order online or do they call up? Like, how, how does that work?

    4. AL

      Like, we prefer curbside, um, as opposed to just doing Postmates and Grubhub. You know, people can do that and so we'll get people to come deliver.

    5. JR

      Yeah, let's get to that 'cause how does that work? Postmates and Grubhub, is that good for your business? Is that... Is it less good?... than people ordering directly from you? Like, how does that work?

    6. AL

      Well, it's great for our business because it gives us a greater range and we really can't deliver. So it gives us an opportunity, so it's a whole another market. But, you know, they charge a backend fee on it. So we have to upcharge it a bit and, you know, for us, we'd prefer just to kind of sell directly to the customer curbside, which we're doing a good clip of too. It's probably about hi- half and half.

    7. JR

      So, like, what ... If you had to guess, like, what's the capacity as, as far, as, like, for your business? As like full on wide open where people can come and sit down versus now? Like, how much has it deteriorated?

    8. AL

      Oh, it's, it's maybe 10%, 15% of the, the business-

    9. JR

      Wow.

    10. AL

      ... compared to ... Yeah.

    11. JR

      And that's-

    12. AL

      So that's why I'm just focusing on like ... I just gotta keep moving. That's how I'm emotionally getting through this thing and also keeping the business going, is just basically just cook for people that are in need, you know, focus on the hospitals and then ... And the neighborhood just right around us, so it's a tough spot.

  5. 7:11 – 10:23

    Industry outlook, PPP loans, rent deferrals, and the ‘unknown rules’ ahead

    1. JR

      And you have obviously have a lot of friends that are in the restaurant business.

    2. AL

      Oh, yes.

    3. JR

      And so what is-

    4. AL

      They talk all the time.

    5. JR

      What's the general f- feeling? Like, what is, uh, what's the, the, the temperature? Like how, how is everybody dealing with this?

    6. AL

      Uh, you know, first of all, knowing that a good number of us are not gonna be around, um, because just even figuring out all the rules and the laws that are gonna happen around this thing are, are unfolding. They're just very hard to read and get a clear understanding of what's happening. So a lot of people just don't know the unknown. Um, you know, landlords, you know, we're deferring rent, but at the same time, you know, they're not accepting of that. So we're like on the hook and we don't even really know where we're gonna end up with it, even just the PPP loans. Um, uh, only-

    7. JR

      What is PPP?

    8. AL

      It's the Paycheck Protection Program and that's really a government funded, um, assistance to supply restaurants and all businesses. I think of all the loans given out, I think only 5% of all the loans given o- out were actually to restaurants. So, um, they gi- i- they give you a chunk of money. Essentially that covers eight weeks of payroll and also a portion of that for, uh, 20 ... That 75% has to be spent on payroll, it covers for eight weeks. And then the other 25% is for rent and utilities. So it's like an eight-week l- lifeline, so.

    9. JR

      And so far, how long has it been now? We're looking at like six weeks of lockdown so far or something like that? Like what-

    10. AL

      It feels like longer. It's gotta be a little bit longer. Like for me-

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AL

      ... it feels. It, it probably is that. I don't even have a, a concept of time I'm working so hard. It's just me and four other people and two are in the front and two are with me in the kitchen. We're doing dishes, we're co- cooking, we're cleaning, we're doing everything. I mean, it's a great sense of, you know, what, you know, accomplishment. And like, I got a, uh, an email from a nurse thanking us for the healthy meal that we prepared for them and that makes it worth it. But, you know, uh, like for me, I'm actually like inspired and just kicking it into high gear. I'm not gonna like just wallow in it. I'm just gonna keep working, head down, do what I do, and just hope at the end of the day. At the end of the day, people have to eat. So the world's gonna be different, you know, probably not gonna be the same at all in terms of for my business. But what el- what choice do I have?

    13. JR

      Right. You want one of these, Ben? Some-

    14. AL

      Yeah, sure.

    15. JR

      Kill Cliff CBD drink. Delicious.

    16. AL

      Oh, yeah.

    17. JR

      There you go.

    18. AL

      Thanks. (can pops)

    19. JR

      Sorry for people listening to me slurp.

    20. AL

      I like that.

    21. JR

      Um, so when you're operating at 10% capacity, obviously this is not sustainable. 10% of your business is not sustainable.

    22. AL

      That's right.

    23. JR

      Just because operating costs and all the above. And then you're, you're obviously in a very high profile area, which must be extraordinary rent too.

    24. AL

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Um-

    26. AL

      We're just not paying the rent, you know. We're just pushing it off. We can't. We don't have the money for it, so we'll have to work it out. That's-

    27. JR

      You look very stressed out. I don't see ... I've never seen you like this.

    28. AL

      (laughs)

    29. JR

      Every time I've seen you-

    30. AL

      I should just like relax.

  6. 10:23 – 16:24

    Inside APL’s dry-aging: the ‘environmental chamber’ and flavor science

    1. JR

      I found out about your restaurant online. I was just googling new places to go for dinner and, uh, I don't know, it's like, um, maybe a couple years ago. And, uh, I was googling steakhouses and then I saw that you specialize in dry aged steaks and I, I had a steak that you cooked once that was more than a year dry aged.

    2. AL

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    3. JR

      Which is so ... It's-

    4. AL

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      It was delicious.

    6. AL

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      But it was really weird. I mean-

    8. AL

      It's weird.

    9. JR

      (laughs) It doesn't taste-

    10. AL

      It's different.

    11. JR

      ... anything like a regular steak.

    12. AL

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      It tastes like, um, boy, it's like a different animal.

    14. AL

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      It's like you're eating something, you know, some exotic animal.

    16. AL

      And I, that's what I like to do. I mean, you know, more aged doesn't necessarily mean better.

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AL

      But, you know, it's just different and that's, you know, for me as a chef, you know, I call my dry age room an environmental chamber.

    19. JR

      I think that's a ... Uh, yeah, there's a picture on Instagram of me and, uh, Adam in the m- the basement, that fucking-

    20. AL

      Meat locker. (laughs)

    21. JR

      ... weird meat room-

    22. AL

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      ... that you've got and, um, it's, it's for people that have never been to a dry aging room, it's very odd. There's fans blowing around, everything's a very specific temperature. You got all these different things labeled as far as like what date it was put in there and for no one ... For people who haven't seen dry aging, it's very odd too because you're like, "W- Hey, what is wrong with that meat?"

    24. AL

      Yeah, exactly.

    25. JR

      The outside crust of it, you got the ph- here's a photo of it. Folks, you can see it in the background of the, um ... It's not working? You gotta technically ... There it is.

    26. AL

      Okay.

    27. JR

      So for folks, you could see it in the background, the meat has like a black crust to it and then you slice that crust off. What do you do with the crust?

    28. AL

      Get rid of it.

    29. JR

      But is it edible?

    30. AL

      Mm, it's not enjoyable. I mean-

  7. 16:24 – 20:55

    How to cook steak properly: tempering, heat methods, and avoiding dry-aged ‘liver’ flavors

    1. JR

      And it's also, there's an art to the perfect temperature, right? What's the perfect internal temperature of a medium rare steak? Like what should it be, like 135 or something?

    2. AL

      Mm, no. It's, it's a bit less. But it's not necessarily the temperature. It's kind of like how you get there.

    3. JR

      Hmm.

    4. AL

      Okay? Let me explain that to you. So-

    5. JR

      Okay.

    6. AL

      ... I have this method where, particularly for thicker steaks, where I'll cook it, I start the cooking, and then I get it to about 105 degrees, and then I allow it to rest at 105. And what ends up happening is, is I call the method just like tempering of the meat. And it basically, it starts transmitting the, the temperature in towards the center, and then I put it back in again, and then it will, it'll, it'll heat up. The temperature, if you like take it, I would say for medium rare, even though like on many logs will say, okay, 120, 125 is rare, but it's not. You know, for me, if you're gonna do that method, um, a solid medium rare will be about 120.

    7. JR

      Really?

    8. AL

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      So why do they think 120 is rare? Like w-

    10. AL

      I don't really understand it exactly. You know, they'll get there. I think they're overshooting it, um-

    11. JR

      Huh.

    12. AL

      ... particularly. For me, it's not rare. Like, rare is, is, is 110. Uh, using the method that I use.

    13. JR

      Now, different people have different methods, which is really what's fascinating about cooking meat. Um, I ate at, uh, a couple times I've eaten at, uh, Bazaar Meats-

    14. AL

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      ... in Vegas.

    16. AL

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      Which is a fantastic restaurant.

    18. AL

      Yes, fantastic.

    19. JR

      My, one of my-

    20. AL

      Amazing chef, Jose Andres.

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. AL

      Amazing.

    23. JR

      It's an amazing place too. When you walk in there, it's just, visually, it's really interesting because they, they have these grills with r- live logs.

    24. AL

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JR

      I mean, they take... Not live-

    26. AL

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      ... obviously. But they take logs.

    28. AL

      Sit-ups. Yeah.

    29. JR

      They're cooking all over fire-

    30. AL

      Yeah.

  8. 20:55 – 28:28

    Building a unique dry-age ‘culture’: spores, room differences, and costly inventory bets

    1. AL

      Same thing about dry aging though.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. AL

      I mean, all dry aging is not created equal. I call it an environmental chamber. So think about it like making cheese in France. You say, "Hey, I want a goat cheese," and you think you'd get one type of goat cheese across the line. I'm creating an environment just like a cheesemaker, okay, that's unique to my own. I actually have the culture from like 15, 16 years ago that I've traveled with, you know, put-

    4. JR

      Hold on, hold on. You put culture... So-

    5. AL

      Yeah, yeah. I've, I have like a method. I basically take meat that has been aged and I bring those spores if you will from that aging meat 'cause, you know, there's a mold on it. It's a friendly mold. And-

    6. JR

      It's a friendly mold? (laughs)

    7. AL

      Yeah, I like it. (laughs) I don't wanna like, I don't wanna like, you know, turn people off to it-

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. AL

      ... because this has been-

    10. JR

      I didn't know that you brought your own mold.

    11. AL

      Yeah, so I-

    12. JR

      I just figured you just let it dry age.

    13. AL

      It's not as, it's not as simple as that.

    14. JR

      Ah.

    15. AL

      For me, like, it's each environment. Again, so I get away from like... Someone can turn around and say... Like, my dry-age is incredibly clean at 100, 100 days, 120 days, um, because I get there slowly, um, my temperature's very low. I like to, you know, dry-age at 32 to 35 degrees. I like a high humidity so I don't dehydrate the meat too soon. I like 85%, sometimes a little bit lower if I wanna pull... It's really depends, you know?

    16. JR

      So when you s-

    17. AL

      And then lots of fans.

    18. JR

      So when you say the cult- Like, how are you bringing this culture in? How do you get it to interact with the meat?

    19. AL

      I basically take, um, I take pieces from the previous, you know, dry-aged room and I bring it to that. And so I put it up by the fan and it will circulate spores.

    20. JR

      You put it by the fan?

    21. AL

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      Like, h- how do you do that?

    23. AL

      Well, there's, um, a fan and, and it... In a cooler.

    24. JR

      Oh.

    25. AL

      And, uh, it's blowing around. It's like blowing the c- So it'll blow the, the spores around the room. So my dry-age has a unique flavor. You know, my tri- You know, some great guys who, like master purveyors in the Bronx which is, Louie, these guys are like my heroes, you know. They taught me practically dry aging. Um, they have their own flavor so their dry-aged tastes different. You know, Pat LaFrieda's another New York guy, does amazing dry-aged beef as well. You know, his has a different flavor. So, you know, for me that's why I take a lot of pride even though it's not the most cost-effective thing to carry, you know, $100,000 in inventory. But it gives me a unique flavor profile that is my unique selling point for my restaurant.

    26. JR

      So you have these pieces. So like, those steaks that we saw in that photograph, you would take one of those dry-aged steaks when it's ready and then you would trim the pieces off, then you'd use those pieces, those darkened pieces-

    27. AL

      Yep.

    28. JR

      ... which just has the spores on it and that would bl- How do you know how much to put in there?

    29. AL

      I put as much as I can. You know, I'm really... I don't want it too, like, clean-clean in there, I want it to be an environment. So it's like a cave, um, and, uh, you know, I'll put a couple of trays in and then I'm, I'm very tactile so I'll, I'll touch the meat and I'll, I'll feel it and, you know, I'll taste it, I'll see where we're at. I'm always cutting into a steak. It's like a lot like w-

    30. JR

      When you say you taste it, like, you cook it?

  9. 28:28 – 37:40

    Food as art and craft: Bourdain’s influence and the pre–Food Network kitchen mentality

    1. JR

      So it's, uh... What's, what's interesting to me about cu- just cuisine and cooking in general is that I didn't think of it... Until I watched Bourdain's original show, No Reservations, I didn't think of it as an art form. And then when I watched the show, I was like, "Look how interested, into cooking this guy is." That's one of the things about people being really passionate about something. It's in- it's, um, incredibly contagious. And his passion for cooking and his, his fascination with different methods that these masters would use, and the way he would just, just... You could see it, like, he was, he was so focused on it, and so enthralled by these flavors and these creations that these chefs would make that I realized like, "Oh, this is an art form. It's just an art form that you eat." But I never thought of it that way. I just thought, "Oh, that place has delicious food. This place tastes good." And then you go to a really fine restaurant-

    2. AL

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      ... or a fine steakhouse like your place, and you go, "Oh, these people are ma- they're artists. They're artists."

    4. AL

      It bounces between art and craft, you know.

    5. JR

      Yes.

    6. AL

      It's, it's like there's, there's a moment in time when, as chefs, w- we explore it as art, you know, because, you know, you're not going in with any boundaries and you're not going in any preconceived notions of what it should be, and that's when cooking is a true art. Most of the time, we're, we're doing the, the craft part, where we figured it out and then there's a, a regiment of, like, lining it up to make sure it's consistent, and we pride ourselves in basically that consistency and team gathering around and doing something universal together. But the art form for me is... And maintaining just being curious and inquisitive has just been my bug from the day I decided to be a chef, and for many people like Bourdain and every other, um, chef that I know of, that's, that's the key, that you know that you'll never learn everything, you know. But, you know, you keep trying this, this... Like a sea of information that, you know, that's out there to explore.

    7. JR

      Yeah, he would take you on these journeys to these, like, very strange restaurants in France-... where, you know, they're on the side of a lake and there's, like, 10 customers and 100 chefs working-

    8. AL

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      ... and they're, they're creating these things, like with filet knives and a grape-

    10. AL

      (laughs) Yeah.

    11. JR

      ... and, like-

    12. AL

      (laughs)

    13. JR

      ... two, two or three caviar eggs-

    14. AL

      Yeah. Yeah.

    15. JR

      ... and then they give it to these people and they're in ecstasy. I'm like, "What? This is so different." I, I, I almost felt embarrassed when I first started talking to him about this. Like, like, I, it's, is it... You know what it's like, it's like for me? Like, I've been a, a lifelong martial artist, and I... When, when some people believe ridiculous things about martial arts and then you have to kind of ex- "Well, that's not really how it works."

    16. AL

      Right.

    17. JR

      You have to kind of explain to them, and then they see it from my perspective and they're like, "Oh, you've been doing this your whole life. This is something you're, you're deeply invested in and you're very passionate about and you care very deeply about the, the, the true nature of what martial arts are." Well, that's how cooking is to chefs. It's, they're all very similar. I know people don't like to think of martial arts as an art form.

    18. AL

      That's a great analogy.

    19. JR

      Yeah, but it, they don't like to think of it as an art form because it hurts people-

    20. AL

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      ... because it's violent-

    22. AL

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      ... and violence is bad.

    24. AL

      Right.

    25. JR

      But it, it is an art form. It's just a strange one that i- i- it's beautiful to the people that appreciate it that understand how difficult it is to pull something off and how, what this incredible dance between these people is. But on the outside, like, a, an ignorant person or a person with a, a very narrow-minded perspective would say, "Oh, that's not an art. That's violence. That's terrible." Like, was it Meryl Streep that said that?

    26. NA

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      Wasn't it, during when... Yeah, it was, it was. Like, "Martial arts are not the arts." Like, okay, lady. (laughs) Settle down.

    28. AL

      (laughs)

    29. JR

      It's, people have their preconceived notions, and I had an embarrassing preconceived notion about food. And I say embarrassing because-

    30. AL

      Great analogy, by the way.

  10. 37:40 – 45:38

    Custom steak knives, theft deterrence, and Adam’s path into bladesmithing

    1. JR

      Yeah, that's one of the interesting things about your place. Like, you make the steak knives.

    2. AL

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      So like, when they serve you and they put the, the forks and the knife down, they tell you, you know, "Adam Perry Lang made this steak knife."

    4. AL

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      And you're like, "Oh."

    6. AL

      And I priced it at $950.01. Everybody like, "Why so much?" I say, "It's priced to be a deterrent." You know, it's one cent over the felony threshold. And, you know-

    7. JR

      What's the felony threshold?

    8. AL

      It's like if you steal something and the value is over $950, it's a felony.

    9. JR

      Really?

    10. AL

      So... Yeah. So, in the state of California. So from my perspective, like, I don't wanna sit there, you know, like some... You know, people are idiots sometimes. You know, they'll go into the restaurant and they'll just take stuff and they don't realize what goes into it. And it's like, listen, you know, I know I'm gonna have a couple of bad apples in there, but the majority of people really are, are good people and they're not gonna steal things. But a good majority will take pepper mills and things, I mean, which infuriates us as restaurateurs. Um, so-

    11. JR

      (coughs) God, that's so gross.

    12. AL

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      I never thought of that. (laughs)

    14. AL

      Oh, it's terrible. It's terrible. Like, what they'll take. You know, meaningful stuff because, you know, you, you really want to, like, do nice things for your customer.

    15. JR

      Do you catch people taking pepper mills?

    16. AL

      Um, no, I don't put pepper mills on the table. I won't even expose myself to it. (laughs)

    17. JR

      (laughs)

    18. AL

      But for the knife, though, we have caught... Like, I have one story. You know, only a few people have attempted and, um, I basically got to the point of, like, pressing charges to, to get the guy. And, but instead I said... I found him on, you know, uh, Twitter and I messaged him. I was like, "Listen, I don't-"

    19. JR

      Wait, how'd you know who's took your knife?

    20. AL

      You know, we know everything in the... We have cameras and we have, you know, who the reservation is under. So we had cameras, uh, all over the restaurant. So when we put the knives down, we have a whole system of, like, knife in, knife out. And, uh, this guy had slipped in... I'm not gonna mention his name 'cause at the end of the day, he did the right thing. But he had slipped the knife into the baby carriage, into his baby's carriage.

    21. JR

      Oh, God.

    22. AL

      And I'm like, "You mother..." I said, "You fucking..." So I, uh... So I called him very calmly and I said, "Listen, I don't think you realize what went into those knives. I make them." No response, no response and I, then I reminded, I said, "It's a felony and I'm gonna give you until six o'clock today to return the knife." And, um, then he realized we were serious. He returned the knife and then, you know, now we-

    23. JR

      So he returned it personally?

    24. AL

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Oh.

    26. AL

      Yeah. Yeah.

    27. JR

      How awkward. (laughs)

    28. AL

      Yeah. I had another guy w- and he returned it and he just, like, was pissed off. He handed it back and he walked out the door. I was like, yeah.

    29. JR

      Why is he mad at you? 'Cause he stole something.

    30. AL

      (sighs) I can't figure it.

  11. 45:38 – 56:36

    Samurai sword interlude: steel, heat treatment, and the ‘soul of the blade’

    1. JR

      You wanna see something cool on the other table?

    2. AL

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      That's a samurai sword from the 1500s.

    4. AL

      Where? Where? Where?

    5. JR

      Yeah, hold on a second. You need to see this.

    6. AL

      I do need to see this. I'm into this. Oh. Oh my gosh. Can I take a look?

    7. JR

      Yeah, pull it out. Don't cut anybody.

    8. AL

      I won't.

    9. JR

      That's a legit samurai sword.

    10. AL

      Wow.

    11. JR

      With papers and everything, with the-

    12. AL

      With the stingray fricking-

    13. JR

      Yeah, I don't, I don't know whether the scabbard is original, but the steel, the actual steel is original. I'm sure it's been re-wrapped.

    14. AL

      Can you imagine that? Now look at this steel. I mean, this steel is like ...

    15. JR

      It's 500 years old.

    16. AL

      (sighs)

    17. JR

      That's what's crazy.

    18. AL

      And that's the profound thing. I mean, there's something about making something that would last like that. I mean ...

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. AL

      Oh my God.

    21. JR

      No, it's amazing. It's an amazing thing to just, to have around. And when you pick it up and hold it, it's got weight to it, but it's, it's, it's delicate in the sense that it's, it's thin-

    22. AL

      Well-balanced.

    23. JR

      ... and elegant, but yet it's designed-

    24. AL

      And you see the curve in the blade like that?

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. AL

      And you know, what's amazing about this is that when they do the quench, in other words when they're actually putting the sole of the blade into it ...

    27. JR

      What does that mean?

    28. AL

      The heat treatment.

    29. JR

      Oh.

    30. AL

      So, you know, anybody can like pound out and make a shape ... Well, not anybody, but pretty much anybody who's handy with, you know, making things can make what looks like a blade. But the true soul of the blade comes through the thermal cycle, the heat treatment. Um, that's why, you know, people are like, "Oh, Japanese steel is the best," or, "German steel is the best." Because there's this whole process that is about aligning the molecular structure and the right type of stack and the type of steel that you do, and then hardening it or, or, or softening it. So if you want a softer blade or, you know, that might be more utility and, um, or you want a harder blade that might be more brittle but can get really razor sharp. That's what determines what the blade is and what it will be. And it's that soul of the blade that, um, like something like this, so this curve is actually produced by the quench. So after you go through this process and you heat it up and you put it into the, the water, it actually, it just bows up and actually creates its curve, and evenly too, which is incredible. That's why these guys are, to me, the epitome of, like, masters, these craftsmen that make knives and blades. Well-

  12. 56:36 – 1:21:31

    Cooking techniques debate: reverse sear, wild game, and sous vide (especially lobster)

    1. JR

      Now, I have a carbon steel pan that I sear steaks on all the time. The, most of the time, the way I cook is I use a, a Traeger Grill and I cook it very slow. So I'll do it at 225 degrees and I do it until I hit an, an internal temperature about 125, and then I sear the outside.

    2. AL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      That's been the method that I use.

    4. AL

      Well, uh, I'm gonna just share my knowledge with you. So I, you know, with cooking steaks, the, the term sear doesn't really, um, it's, it's a misnomer.

    5. JR

      Okay.

    6. AL

      There's only browning, 'cause like searing really only can happen when, you know, you have live flesh, so to speak. So it doesn't actually happen like where it sears in or seals in juices.

    7. JR

      What about like ahi tuna, when they sear that?

    8. AL

      Well-

    9. JR

      Isn't that, is that technically searing?

    10. AL

      I mean, it's more like, more like browning, um-

    11. JR

      Okay.

    12. AL

      I, I mean, I'm just, it's just like a-

    13. JR

      It's a terminology thing?

    14. AL

      ... techn- it's just terminology.

    15. JR

      Yeah, okay.

    16. AL

      It's like, keep searing. I'm not, I'm not telling you not to think like that-

    17. JR

      No, I understand what you're saying.

    18. AL

      ... but the concept is, it's, it's browning, it's not searing. So, um, uh, bring me back on track.

    19. JR

      Low temperature.

    20. AL

      Okay, so-

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. AL

      ... for example, what I would tweak with you is like I would say go to 265. You're gonna have the same results in a quicker period of time-

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AL

      ... but with the same tenderness. Um, that ratio of speed is not gonna impact, um, your product. So at the end of the day, 225 is, everybody says slow and low, but I'd say a lot of times, like a bit hotter and a bit quicker is actually better for the crust development and also for the meat. Because for the tenderness of the meat, let's say you have a thick like, like a brisket-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. AL

      ... and it's got all these co- all this collagen in it, which is tightly wound protein, I think about it as like a sponge that's dehydrated. When you throw it on top of the water, it kinda floats and then all of a sudden, it catches and then soaks up the juice. So when you're putting it in at that lower temperature, you're heating it up, you're causing the protein to squeeze out the liquid, and then if you're doing it at the right ratio, it's drinking the liquid into the collagen to turn it to gelatin, which is that unctuous, beautiful mouth feel that you'll get from a long cooked piece of meat, okay.

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm. Now if you get a long cooked piece of meat, like, uh, a really well done brisket-

    28. AL

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JR

      ... what temperature are you cooking that at?

    30. AL

      Um, depending on the cooker that I'm using, but 265 is my, is my like typical dial-in.

Episode duration: 1:57:49

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